I have never been very good at eschatology. I remember I did one of those reading through the bible in a year things, and after I finished Jude, I just stopped, because Revelation was too daunting. On the one hand, it felt very irrelevant - how am I supposed to be edified by this bizarre apocalyptic literature? (I don't think this attitute is a very good one in light of II Timothy 3:16 - all Scripture.) On the other hand, I have often felt that books like Daniel and Revelation are so difficult to understand that any effort I would make would just further confuse me. However, finally I just rolled up my sleeves, purchased five or six books, and started thinking it through biblically. For the past 3 months I have read nothing but books on eschatology and covenant theology. I still have tons of research to do, but already it seems quite clear to me that the Scriptural support for preterism is undeniable. Ironically, none of the passages that were decisive for me are from Daniel or Revelation. The three most influential verses for me are all from the gospel of Matthew.

10:23
"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

16:27-28
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

24:34
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Other considerations that helped me were: (1) a fresh appreciation for the original audience of the epistles and statements of Scripture; (2) recognizing the nature of the genre of apocolyptic prophecy, how it must be read and interpreted. Understanding the fulfillment of certain OT prophecies was crucial to understanding the fulfillment of passages like the Olivet discourse; (3) reading Josephus on the Roman Jewish war and beginning to understand how cataclysmic and significant an event the destruction of the Jewish temple was (and is), regardless of the preterism debate.

I used to think that the debate over preterism was not really relevant to my life in any practical way, but I have come to consider that it is actually relevant to me in a number of ways.
A) I can thank God that the great tribulation has already occured and I have been spared from it.
B) I can await Christ's second coming as a direct and relatively simple eschatological event without the complex and often hype-based series of events posited by the dispensational premillennial view.
C) My faith in the truth of Scripture and Christ's predictions is augmented rather than questioned. I can use preterism toward apologetic ends, as the alleged failed predictions of Christ comprise one of the skeptic's most frequent points of attack of Christianity.
D) My understanding of certain passages of Scripture is augmented as I now more fully understand them in their original context, and therefore can more accurately apply them to my life. E.g., the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, etc.
E) My theological understanding of God's relationship with physical Israel is greatly enhanced due to the change in my understanding of the purpose of the destruction of the temple, which in turn affects my understanding of covenant theology, passages like Romans 11, and how Christians should relate to physical Jews.

From the perspective of preterism, I now have a framework for understanding the nearness and soonness (is that a word?) of the events of Revelation.

Revelation 1:1-3
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I also have a means to understand Jesus' statement to the High Priest in its relevance to the original people he was speaking to. This is an example of (2) above.

Matthew 26:64
"But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

I now have a means to understand Jesus' frequent statements of judgement upon the generation of Jews living when he was alive. I also have a fuller understanding of God's response of judgement to the act of the crucifiction of his Son. Without preterism, these things are more obscure.

Matthew 23:35-36
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


In short, I have become committed to preterism, and I don't understand how anyone could read through Matthew, Revelation, and the rest of the Bible with a fair mind and not be lead into similar conclusions. It seems to me that if Jesus says anything clear about his coming, he says that it is coming soon, i.e., within the lifetime of many of his original listeners. Just wanted to share that!

good deal. excellent presentation too. for me it was 2Th 2:1-8 that turned me to Preterism. i interpreted the "man of lawlessness" as the beast of Revelation even before i heard of Preterism. i however, i could not deny the time frame Paul restricted his discussion to. as i studied eschatology more, everything else just started falling into place.

you read Josephus? that's impressive. i bet that was illuminating on Olivet and Revelation.

Gavin thank you so much for sharing!

I have fond memories of that thread on another site years ago in which you invited me to convert you to preterism.



I enjoyed our prior discussions and look forward to more.

Originally posted by Gavin

I have never been very good at eschatology. I remember I did one of those reading through the bible in a year things, and after I finished Jude, I just stopped, because Revelation was too daunting. On the one hand, it felt very irrelevant - how am I supposed to be edified by this bizarre apocalyptic literature? (I don't think this attitute is a very good one in light of II Timothy 3:16 - all Scripture.) On the other hand, I have often felt that books like Daniel and Revelation are so difficult to understand that any effort I would make would just further confuse me. However, finally I just rolled up my sleeves, purchased five or six books, and started thinking it through biblically. For the past 3 months I have read nothing but books on eschatology and covenant theology. I still have tons of research to do, but already it seems quite clear to me that the Scriptural support for preterism is undeniable. Ironically, none of the passages that were decisive for me are from Daniel or Revelation. The three most influential verses for me are all from the gospel of Matthew.

10:23
"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

16:27-28
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

24:34
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Other considerations that helped me were: (1) a fresh appreciation for the original audience of the epistles and statements of Scripture; (2) recognizing the nature of the genre of apocolyptic prophecy, how it must be read and interpreted. Understanding the fulfillment of certain OT prophecies was crucial to understanding the fulfillment of passages like the Olivet discourse; (3) reading Josephus on the Roman Jewish war and beginning to understand how cataclysmic and significant an event the destruction of the Jewish temple was (and is), regardless of the preterism debate.

I used to think that the debate over preterism was not really relevant to my life in any practical way, but I have come to consider that it is actually relevant to me in a number of ways.
A) I can thank God that the great tribulation has already occured and I have been spared from it.
B) I can await Christ's second coming as a direct and relatively simple eschatological event without the complex and often hype-based series of events posited by the dispensational premillennial view.
C) My faith in the truth of Scripture and Christ's predictions is augmented rather than questioned. I can use preterism toward apologetic ends, as the alleged failed predictions of Christ comprise one of the skeptic's most frequent points of attack of Christianity.
D) My understanding of certain passages of Scripture is augmented as I now more fully understand them in their original context, and therefore can more accurately apply them to my life. E.g., the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, etc.
E) My theological understanding of God's relationship with physical Israel is greatly enhanced due to the change in my understanding of the purpose of the destruction of the temple, which in turn affects my understanding of covenant theology, passages like Romans 11, and how Christians should relate to physical Jews.

From the perspective of preterism, I now have a framework for understanding the nearness and soonness (is that a word?) of the events of Revelation.

Revelation 1:1-3
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I also have a means to understand Jesus' statement to the High Priest in its relevance to the original people he was speaking to. This is an example of (2) above.

Matthew 26:64
"But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

I now have a means to understand Jesus' frequent statements of judgement upon the generation of Jews living when he was alive. I also have a fuller understanding of God's response of judgement to the act of the crucifiction of his Son. Without preterism, these things are more obscure.

Matthew 23:35-36
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


In short, I have become committed to preterism, and I don't understand how anyone could read through Matthew, Revelation, and the rest of the Bible with a fair mind and not be lead into similar conclusions. It seems to me that if Jesus says anything clear about his coming, he says that it is coming soon, i.e., within the lifetime of many of his original listeners. Just wanted to share that!

This is a beautiful testimony, thank you Gavin.

Mine is similar. My husband and I decided to tackle Revelations together. To begin, we spent a two week vacation alone without phones or distractions in an awesome resort off-season, and carried our Bibles and study materials back and forth to the pool. We immersed ourselves in Revelations and shared our discoveries. At first it was daunting. We kept thinking we were missing something - it was the height of the Left Behind stuff, and we couldn't get over what careful study revealed, so many errors. It was so clear the preterist view is the correct one... and as you pointed out in your excellent post, many other things fell into place at once.

IMO, the left behinders are to Bible scholarship what the global warming gurus are to hard science. (I apologize in advance to those who are personally offended, believe me it is not personal, but a way to make a point). Junk science, junk religion, junk politics -- too many are ensnared due to ignorance and bias, and an unwillingness to let go.

Rev. 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Thanks for posting that, Gavin...especially your list of newfound items of relevance. It was much the same for me. Before, I had pretty much given up on Revelation and the Olivet Discourse. I didn't understand it, and despite how many books I read by the leading Futurist (mainly Dispy) authors, I was still left with as many or more questions than answers.

When a friend suggested I listen to some tapes on Orthodox Preterism by Dan Trotter (Dee Dee has them on her site), it was almost like the veil of confusion lifted and the lightbulb clicked "on" in a big way. I had a newfound appreciation for Jesus' OD and Revelation came alive in a way I'd never experienced. So many things just fell into place. This continued as I read other authors, including Dee Dee's OD commentary.

To me, Futurism just seems like more speculation than anything else. Preterism, on the other hand, provides answers.

I don't know.

For example Mathew 13:47 is prophecy predicting TheologyWeb, so it refutes preterism.

Only hyperpreterism says that TWeb happened in AD70.

I just find it weird that we can study as diligently as others and come up with totally different conclusions...

I just find it weird that we can study as diligently as others and come up with totally different conclusions...

exactly . . . i for one studied revelation and discovered that the anti-christ was ronald mcdonald. The hamburgler is a false prophet, people. beware.

Originally posted by Gavin

I have never been very good at eschatology. I remember I did one of those reading through the bible in a year things, and after I finished Jude, I just stopped, because Revelation was too daunting. On the one hand, it felt very irrelevant - how am I supposed to be edified by this bizarre apocalyptic literature? (I don't think this attitute is a very good one in light of II Timothy 3:16 - all Scripture.) On the other hand, I have often felt that books like Daniel and Revelation are so difficult to understand that any effort I would make would just further confuse me. However, finally I just rolled up my sleeves, purchased five or six books, and started thinking it through biblically. For the past 3 months I have read nothing but books on eschatology and covenant theology. I still have tons of research to do, but already it seems quite clear to me that the Scriptural support for preterism is undeniable. Ironically, none of the passages that were decisive for me are from Daniel or Revelation. The three most influential verses for me are all from the gospel of Matthew.

10:23
"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

16:27-28
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

24:34
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Other considerations that helped me were: (1) a fresh appreciation for the original audience of the epistles and statements of Scripture; (2) recognizing the nature of the genre of apocolyptic prophecy, how it must be read and interpreted. Understanding the fulfillment of certain OT prophecies was crucial to understanding the fulfillment of passages like the Olivet discourse; (3) reading Josephus on the Roman Jewish war and beginning to understand how cataclysmic and significant an event the destruction of the Jewish temple was (and is), regardless of the preterism debate.

I used to think that the debate over preterism was not really relevant to my life in any practical way, but I have come to consider that it is actually relevant to me in a number of ways.
A) I can thank God that the great tribulation has already occured and I have been spared from it.
B) I can await Christ's second coming as a direct and relatively simple eschatological event without the complex and often hype-based series of events posited by the dispensational premillennial view.
C) My faith in the truth of Scripture and Christ's predictions is augmented rather than questioned. I can use preterism toward apologetic ends, as the alleged failed predictions of Christ comprise one of the skeptic's most frequent points of attack of Christianity.
D) My understanding of certain passages of Scripture is augmented as I now more fully understand them in their original context, and therefore can more accurately apply them to my life. E.g., the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, etc.
E) My theological understanding of God's relationship with physical Israel is greatly enhanced due to the change in my understanding of the purpose of the destruction of the temple, which in turn affects my understanding of covenant theology, passages like Romans 11, and how Christians should relate to physical Jews.

From the perspective of preterism, I now have a framework for understanding the nearness and soonness (is that a word?) of the events of Revelation.

Revelation 1:1-3
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I also have a means to understand Jesus' statement to the High Priest in its relevance to the original people he was speaking to. This is an example of (2) above.

Matthew 26:64
"But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

I now have a means to understand Jesus' frequent statements of judgement upon the generation of Jews living when he was alive. I also have a fuller understanding of God's response of judgement to the act of the crucifiction of his Son. Without preterism, these things are more obscure.

Matthew 23:35-36
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


In short, I have become committed to preterism, and I don't understand how anyone could read through Matthew, Revelation, and the rest of the Bible with a fair mind and not be lead into similar conclusions. It seems to me that if Jesus says anything clear about his coming, he says that it is coming soon, i.e., within the lifetime of many of his original listeners. Just wanted to share that!

Hi Gavin,

I too want to thank you for your message. It demonstrates the difficulties young (and old) Bible students have with understanding the scriptures today.

So what did the original audience believe about the Scriptures? We have the first century writings of the apostles, so we need to understand what the early churches understood from the apostles. We have writings from the first and second century churches that tell what they believed. We have the writings of both those who knew the apostles personally, and those who received the oral tradition of the apostles within a hundred years of when they wrote. They believed that a future tribulation and an individual antichrist were coming. We have commentaries on the Olivet discourse from the early church. Some of them were also familiar with the writings of historians like Josephus. Their hermeneutics weren't exactly like those used today. Did you know that?

Even if we sit down with Hebrew and Greek texts, does they give us any advantage? The Hebrew text today is from the Masoretic text that took its final form about 1000 AD. The Greek is probably from the Textus Receptus which I think was done about 1500 AD. The Septuagint is the Bible the NT quotes from, and was the Bible of the early church. It was translated into Greek by Jews about 250 BC.

I think it is somewhat arrogant of modern people to think they can ignore what early Christians understood about the scriptures. Many of the early church were tortured and martyred for what they believed. Should we just dismiss them as primitive ignorant people? We should be careful if we choose to do so, because Jesus and the apostles were ancient people too.

AF

And that explains why eschaton is either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Oh, that's right. He isn't. So much for that. Back on ignore for you.

Originally posted by Tuck Xena

And that explains why eschaton is either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Oh, that's right. He isn't. So much for that. Back on ignore for you.

I would prefer that you do ignore me since you will never discuss the issues with me. I bring out the TRUTH. You resort to silly games. You can't handle the TRUTH.

Originally posted by Gavin

I have never been very good at eschatology. I remember I did one of those reading through the bible in a year things, and after I finished Jude, I just stopped, because Revelation was too daunting. On the one hand, it felt very irrelevant - how am I supposed to be edified by this bizarre apocalyptic literature? (I don't think this attitute is a very good one in light of II Timothy 3:16 - all Scripture.) On the other hand, I have often felt that books like Daniel and Revelation are so difficult to understand that any effort I would make would just further confuse me. However, finally I just rolled up my sleeves, purchased five or six books, and started thinking it through biblically. For the past 3 months I have read nothing but books on eschatology and covenant theology. I still have tons of research to do, but already it seems quite clear to me that the Scriptural support for preterism is undeniable. Ironically, none of the passages that were decisive for me are from Daniel or Revelation. The three most influential verses for me are all from the gospel of Matthew.

10:23
"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

16:27-28
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

24:34
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Other considerations that helped me were: (1) a fresh appreciation for the original audience of the epistles and statements of Scripture; (2) recognizing the nature of the genre of apocolyptic prophecy, how it must be read and interpreted. Understanding the fulfillment of certain OT prophecies was crucial to understanding the fulfillment of passages like the Olivet discourse; (3) reading Josephus on the Roman Jewish war and beginning to understand how cataclysmic and significant an event the destruction of the Jewish temple was (and is), regardless of the preterism debate.

I used to think that the debate over preterism was not really relevant to my life in any practical way, but I have come to consider that it is actually relevant to me in a number of ways.
A) I can thank God that the great tribulation has already occured and I have been spared from it.
B) I can await Christ's second coming as a direct and relatively simple eschatological event without the complex and often hype-based series of events posited by the dispensational premillennial view.
C) My faith in the truth of Scripture and Christ's predictions is augmented rather than questioned. I can use preterism toward apologetic ends, as the alleged failed predictions of Christ comprise one of the skeptic's most frequent points of attack of Christianity.
D) My understanding of certain passages of Scripture is augmented as I now more fully understand them in their original context, and therefore can more accurately apply them to my life. E.g., the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, etc.
E) My theological understanding of God's relationship with physical Israel is greatly enhanced due to the change in my understanding of the purpose of the destruction of the temple, which in turn affects my understanding of covenant theology, passages like Romans 11, and how Christians should relate to physical Jews.

From the perspective of preterism, I now have a framework for understanding the nearness and soonness (is that a word?) of the events of Revelation.

Revelation 1:1-3
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I also have a means to understand Jesus' statement to the High Priest in its relevance to the original people he was speaking to. This is an example of (2) above.

Matthew 26:64
"But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

I now have a means to understand Jesus' frequent statements of judgement upon the generation of Jews living when he was alive. I also have a fuller understanding of God's response of judgement to the act of the crucifiction of his Son. Without preterism, these things are more obscure.

Matthew 23:35-36
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


In short, I have become committed to preterism, and I don't understand how anyone could read through Matthew, Revelation, and the rest of the Bible with a fair mind and not be lead into similar conclusions. It seems to me that if Jesus says anything clear about his coming, he says that it is coming soon, i.e., within the lifetime of many of his original listeners. Just wanted to share that!

Wow! Can you say Dej vu?

I had the same "Why bother?" atitude toward eschatology as you did for years. (no really I did!). (Even though I taught a Sunday School class on the topic [from a DF perspective no less], I was just regurgetating what others said, not really understanding how it all fit together.

But shortly after I began to study apologetics (and as a result felt much more confident in my ability to grasp the 'deeper' theology of eschatology) my Sunday School class (I was not the teacher at this time) began going through LaHaye's Revelation Unveiled. I was very excited, I felt I was at a point where I would really get a grasp of how the "experts" arrived at DF from scripture.

The very first Sunday School lesson, a thought like a light bulb went off in my head. It is possible that the experts may be wrong on some of these things. In fact, it was clear to me that the "7 Asian churches" represented the "7 church ages" was pure conjecture.

It really never crosed my mind that DF could be wrong before this time, and even then, I did not think it possible that the "main points" of DF could be in error (i.e. main points being pre-trib ratpture, 7 year trib, literal millinial kingdom).

However, because it was now clear to me that the "experts" were mistaken in this one area, I decided to do more research, mostly on the internet. This is where I first came across the concept of preterism. My first reaction was, "what a load of liberal crap" (no really it was).

Well, to make a long story short (oops, too late), I eventually came to be a full blown supported and defender of the orthodox preterist position.

And like you Gavin, it made scripture more clear, and increased my faith in the reliability of scripture.

Gavin, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you are saying in your OP that you were undecided/uncommitted to futurism of any stripe before "converting" your beliefs.....to essentially (it's) opposite.

'Am I reading that' first paragraph wrongly ? (The first four sentences, and then the 'shift' at 5.)

garf,

thats correct. It was a conversion from vague, undefined uncertainty to preterism.

gavin