There are many interpitations of Christ being God himself, and the way this view is taught, it does not cancel out God, it blends him and Christ together in some weird symbiosis. I thought i would give a breif description of the truth concerning Christ relation to God.

Jesus was not created, he was birthed by God. Now God is not female, nor is he male, he is neither, he is creator and substainer. But he can give birth. There is a distinct difference in God createing something, and him giving birth to something. Angels were created, Jesus was birthed. Mankind will be actually both. Jesus owes his very existance to God- John 6:57. Jesus is FROM God, John 7:29, and 8:42. Jesus here is describing his birth. He proceeded forth and came from God. He , in John 3:16, is called the "begottened" son, a clear reference to birth. In John 1:18, he is again called begottened, but then his orgin is shown to be the "bosom" of God. He came from inside God, meaning he is composed of the same thing God is, if we can call it composition. Whatever God is, Jesus is the same. But HE IS NOT THE SAME BEING AS GOD, he is a distinct individual, meaning he is one, just like each of us are one.

He is from God, has Gods exact genectic or cellular makeup, what ever that is, so when we see him, we have seen God. This means Jesus actually "looks" like God, and has Gods exact nature. They have a perfect father son relationship. Now study the 5-8th verses of John chapter 3. You must rely on the spirit here to see this. Unless one is born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This INCLUDES Jesus. Angels, the 24 elders, it does not matter, even mankind. Now this is a big jump for some i know, but God has many componants "INSIDE" of him, two being the water of life and his Spirits. God is composed of fire, water, wind, thunder, and pure energy. All these are INSIDE OF HIM. Nothingelse is like this. Jesus was baptized inside of God, then brought out of him and given protozoan, or self determinant eternal life.

Angels were born of the spirit and the river of life in heaven, but they were not birthed. Jesus is the "natural son of God", its just that simple. He is a obedient son. Jesus actually has Gods complette trust, God loves him very very much. He is pleased with Christ. I think mankind exist because of Jesus desire to have a family like he and God. Jesus wanted God to have more children. This is the glory of the plan of salvation, we will be actual children of a God. Greater than angels, BUT , BUT, we, like Christ, like angels, like all life, MUST FOREVER SERVE GOD THE FATHER. That is the definition of Christ whole existance, to serve God. This is what complette happiness is all about.

Now in John 5:26, God has given Jesus inherant life, and the responsibility to save mankind. In verse 30, Jesus destroys the free will doctrine, setting the example that christians ignore, selfless will. Jesus lives to do the fathers bidding. That will never change. Jesus is in perfect submission to God, he is not God, he is his son. Christians teach the oppisite. In 6:30, Jesus gives an amazeing prophecy, of all the humans God has given him, he will loose not one of them. Christians disbelieve that also. How many humans has God given him, John 17:2, ALL OF THEM.

It pleases God for Jesus to save us all, God is not , has not, willed any to hell fire for eternity, somethingelse christians contridict. This is why i view christians as the greatest enemy of Christ. Strangely ironic. The very servants of Christ, his actual enemys. They are not anti-christ, they are blinded by lack of knowledge.

So Jesus is Gods son, he has a parental relationship with God, totally in his service. God has entrusted all things to Christ, Jesus can actually speak FOR God. Awesome responsibility, and Jesus was given the assignment to become the savior of the world, christians teach he will fail in that assignment.

He is from God, has Gods exact genectic or cellular makeup, what ever that is, so when we see him, we have seen God. This means Jesus actually "looks" like God, and has Gods exact nature.

God is spirit, hence He has no cellular structure or DNA for Jesus to take on.

God is composed of fire, water, wind, thunder, and pure energy.

What is your source for this assertion?

Jesus was baptized inside of God...

I thought he was baptized in the Jordan River. Silly me.

Jesus is the "natural son of God"

How can Jesus be God's only begotten when God told us that Israel is God's firstborn son? (Exodus 4:22)

Jesus ... is not God

I can agree with that 100%.

What is Jesus relationship to God?

His Son. :crackup:

Jesus was not created, he was birthed by God. Now God is not female, nor is he male, he is neither, he is creator and substainer. But he can give birth. There is a distinct difference in God createing something, and him giving birth to something. Angels were created, Jesus was birthed. Mankind will be actually both. Jesus owes his very existance to God- John 6:57. Jesus is FROM God, John 7:29, and 8:42. Jesus here is describing his birth. He proceeded forth and came from God. He , in John 3:16, is called the "begottened" son, a clear reference to birth. In John 1:18, he is again called begottened, but then his orgin is shown to be the "bosom" of God. He came from inside God, meaning he is composed of the same thing God is, if we can call it composition. Whatever God is, Jesus is the same. But HE IS NOT THE SAME BEING AS GOD, he is a distinct individual, meaning he is one, just like each of us are one.

I don't think παρα necessitates that Christ be "born" from the Father. Look it up lexically. Also, see Jn1:1. He was WITH the Father in the beginning which is the idea expressed in vs18. Not the same word but the same idea can be derived.

On μονογενης:

μονογενης monogenes; gen. monogenous, masc. -fem., neut. monogenon, from monos (3441), only, and genos (1085), stock.
Unique, one of a kind, one and only. The only one of the family (Luke 7:12 referring to the only son of his mother; 8:42, the daughter of Jairus; Luke 9:38, the demoniac boy). John alone uses monogenes to describe the relation of Jesus to God the Father, presenting Him as the unique one, the only one (monos) of a class or kind (genos), in the discussion of the realationship of the Son to the Father (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). Genos, from which genes in monogenes is derived, means race, stock, family, class or kind, and geno comes from ginomai (1096), become, as in John 1:14, "And the Word became [egeneto] flesh." This in in distinction from gennao (1080), to beget, engender or create. The noun from gennao is gennema (1080), the result of birth. So then, the word means one of a kind or unique. There are two schools of thought regarding the meaning of this term. The first view, which began with Origen, teaches that Christ's unique Sonship and His generation by the Father are eternal being predicated of Him in respect to His participation in the Godhead. Although monogenes was traditionally cited in proof of this explanation, modern proponents, recognizing the mistaken identification of genes as a derivative of gennao instead of genos, understand the word to be descriptive of the kind of Sonship Christ possesses and not of the process establishing such a relationship. This would serve to distinguish the Sonship of Christ to God from that spoken of other being, e.g. Adam (Luke 3:28), angels (Job1:6), or believers (John 1:12). The last view teaches that Chris's uniwque Sonship and generation by the Father are predicated of Him in respect to the incarnation. The proponents of this interpretation unequivocally affirm the triune nature of the Godhead and Christ's diety teaching that it is the word logos (3056), Word, which designates His personage within the Godhead. Christ's Sonship expresses an economical relationship between the Word and the Father assumed via the incarnation. This stands in fulfillment of OT prophecies which identify Christ as both human, descending from David, and divine, originating from God. Like David and the other kings descending from him, Christ is the Son of God by position (2Sam. 7:14), but unlike them and because of His divine nature, He is par excellence the Son of God by nature (Psalm 2:7; Heb. 1:5). Thus the appellation referes to the incarnate Word, God made flesh, not simply the preincarnate Word. Therefore, monogenes can be held as syn. with the God-Man. Jesus was the only such one ever, in distinction with the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Triune God.
He is never called teknon Theou (teknon [5043], child; Theou [2316], of God) as the believers are (John 1:12; 11:52; 1 John 3:1,2,10; 5:2). In John 5:18, Jesus called God His very own (idion [2398]) Father. To Jesus, God was not a Father as He is to us. See John 20:17. He never spoke of God as the common Father of Him and believers. The term monogenes also occurs in Heb. 11:17.

[The Complete Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodhiates p.996]

"No one has seen God at any time; the 'μονογενης God' who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

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Forgive any typos.

God bless

mickiel:

What is Jesus relationship to God?

IronMetro:

His Son.

Hi, IronMetro. Thanks for the pearls, and for the welcome, too.

After that gift, I hate to disagree with you, but...

I can't agree with your statement, at least not in the same way as you meant it.

I will agree that, as a Jew, Jesus was a son of God, in the exact same way all Jews are sons of God (assuming, of course, that Jesus existed at all, but that's a whole 'nother thread).

But I understand that you mean it differently, i.e., that Jesus was God's son, as in directly begotten in some fashion before the foundation of the world. Which makes me wonder how you resolve that belief with God's statement to Pharaoh through Moshe, "And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Yisra'el is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto you, Let my son go, that he may serve me." (Exodus 4:22)? Here God is declaring that Israel is His firstborn son, which could not be true if Jesus was born first.

You want to take those pearls back now? :)

Yesterday @ 10:56 PM post located here
Salty:



Hi, IronMetro. Thanks for the pearls, and for the welcome, too.

[......]

You want to take those pearls back now? :)

Haha. I already followed the link to your site before I even gave those. So I already knew your theological position . I like to give those out to new members to help them feel welcome. And you are! Thanks for being at TWeb.

I will agree that, as a Jew, Jesus was a son of God, in the exact same way all Jews are sons of God.

I take it from passages such as John5:18; 19:7 etc. that it denotes something more than your generic "son". But that is probably another issue as well.

(assuming, of course, that Jesus existed at all, but that's a whole 'nother thread)

Yeah, that might be right up JPH's alley, however. I know from preusing your site that you're most likely not a "fence-sitter" on these issues but if your interested in researching topics such as the above quoted, check out www.tektonics.org i.e. "Shattering the Christ Myth", et al.

As for debating that topic; atheism/skepticism (which is what I would class that under) aren't my "area" to put it bluntly.

But I understand that you mean it differently, i.e., that Jesus was God's son, as in directly begotten in some fashion before the foundation of the world.

I don't believe Christ to be "begotten" in any way in regards to being a 'created being' (as Mickiel believes, the JWs, etc). Hence my citation from Zodhiates. The only such 'begetting' I would vouch for would be the "eternal begetting" mentioned of Origen.

Though even that I do not find necessary for Christ to be the "Son" of God. Simply the relationship held between Him and the Father.

Which makes me wonder how you resolve that belief with God's statement to Pharaoh through Moshe, "And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Yisra'el is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto you, Let my son go, that he may serve me." (Exodus 4:22)? Here God is declaring that Israel is His firstborn son, which could not be true if Jesus was born first.

I take "firstborn" to be a title of preeminence. We know this from the fact that Israel was not the first nation created by God (e.g. He raised up Egypt etc).

Additionally, for example, looking in the OT we see God speak in reference to King David:

"He shall cry to Me, My Father, You are my God, and the rock of my salvation. And I will make Him My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth." Ps89:26-27 LITV

"He shall call unto Me: Thou art my Father, my G-d, and the rock of my salvation. I also will appoint him first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth." Ps89:27-28 JPS

And of course I take this as a prototype/antitype situation regarding Christ (Cf.Col1:15).

I hope that helps a little in clarifying my stance.

God bless you!,
Jeremiah

Dear Mickiel,

You have some serious problems in your beliefs, you are not a Christian sir.

Jesus Christ is God manifested in human flesh, while He was begotten of God it is simply a proceeding from the Father, but to deny He is God of very God is deny the entirety of the Christian Faith and be lost. He was not born of God because He is God - the begatting is the incarnation, not the procession. He was begotten in enternity and has always been Jesus Christ, the express image of God Himself, before the foundation of the world.

This doctrinal work has been done for centuries, to misunderstand this at the level at which you do convinces me you do from a deep seated intent to pervert the Truth and hold it in unrighteousness. I would suggest you repent of this, your biggest error - if there is any sincerity in your beliefs - is to presume you have been called to exegete such things. If so, you would have been born in the early Church.

Their are numerous problems in your thinking, not the least being your application of witchcraft as the interpretive principle of the Godhead. You claim He is creator, but you look at Him and interpret Him in terms of His creation, divinizing it. You are simply practicing sorcerey in the name of Christ and claiming anyone who doesn't have the spirit of anti-Christ cannot properly interpret the Scripture to arrive at your conclusions.

If you wish to be saved, you'll repent of this in its entirety and join a Christian Church and submit to its elders and be taught the Christian Faith.

Sincerely,


Thomas

No, i am not christian, i am either a fool, lost or enlightened, at times i am unsure myself. Right now, i just don't know. Either i have been deceived, or we all have, but i am asking God to show me, this is what keeps comming to my mind. Brother, either the whole of christianity is deceived and full of deception, or i just am. At this time im my life,i am concerned, but very confused at times. I am just not sure what to believe sometimes. But those things i have writtened is what i see in the bible. If i am a heritic, i have asked God to deal with that, who wants to be a fool. But if what i see is truth, i cannot return to lies. Right now my life feels worthless.

Mickiel is an honorable man who is paying attention to a lot of very important things. I believe he will do well. Speak confidently to him. He hears what a lot of people miss.

1 John 4:1-4 says who Jesus is.

Yesterday @ 10:25 PM post located here
David O:

Mickiel is an honorable man who is paying attention to a lot of very important things. I believe he will do well. Speak confidently to him. He hears what a lot of people miss.

1 John 4:1-4 says who Jesus is.

I am honored.

Still, there are a lot of people missing things and i think i know who is behind it. It is a great power, and it is not satan. Rom. 11:32 speaks volumes. If what i believe is true, the reason why christians, or anyone for that matter, cannot see these things i write, its because God himself has blinded them. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. They see, but they see doctrines actually formulated by men, and call that God. They want to see, spend their lives in actual worship, but are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. If what i believe is true, the whole world is deceived, but thats what the bible says in Rev. 12:9, its just that no one believes it. People think they are exempt from that. Not understanding God, they have established a long developed pattern of self righteousness, and really do not submit themselves to Gods standard because they don't know it. It sounds like heresey to them.

My time here is close to up David O, may you fare well in your journey. This world will continue to wax worse, as will the understanding of men.

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...

Acts 2:38

...Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why do you say your time is close to up Mickiel? Your life is not worthless, Christ does not expect perfection of theology from you, simply faith in him! If you continue to seek him, as your post lead me to believe, your search will never be in vain!

Today @ 09:24 AM post located here
bonehead:

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...

Acts 2:38

...Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why do you say your time is close to up Mickiel? Your life is not worthless, Christ does not expect perfection of theology from you, simply faith in him! If you continue to seek him, as your post lead me to believe, your search will never be in vain!

I only mean my time at theology web is near up. I loose intrest in places of traditional thought, they offer me no real growth. I am exicited at truth, and this place is dull of hearing , it will continue on its present course. I know my life is not worthless, but i just feel that way at times. Imagine 99% of people believing one thing, and the rest believing the other. I am a part of that 1%. You switch from elation to lonliness each day. Others ask why i even bother with the 99, they know its worthless. I thought knowing truth would be a wonderful thing, i was wrong.

Its been my observation that there are various views presented at this site, with the debate even among christians. Even many of us are seeking to fine tune our views, and rightly divide the Word of Truth. Don`t let these opposing views run you off, but rather with prayer and study you shall know the truth, and it will make you free! I don`t know it all, and if anyone can prove to me my views clash with the Word, I am all ears myself.

Nice knowing you Mickiel. Read the Bible, it is enough because it is living and active. I want you to know God and to not let people get in your way. I admire your effort to hold on to the Truth. A lot, but not all tradition sucks.

08-09-2003 @ 01:54 PM post located here
mickiel:




If what i believe is true, the reason why christians, or anyone for that matter, cannot see these things i write, its because God himself has blinded them. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. They want to see, spend their lives in actual worship, but are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I don't really have a problem with God binding "all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." This is the part where I get discouraged:

There is nothing anyone can do to change that.

What if I am listening to you and what you are saying, thoughtfully considering it, and possessing a desire for the truth despite my traditional backgroud? Will God, knowing my sincere desire for truth not reveal it to me, even if I ask with faith?

I am not challenging you. God has certainly deafened ears and hardened hearts in the past. But it is my hope that if I have a sincere desire for truth and faith that I will receive it, then I will have that truth.

Love and Respect