I don't recall who the conversation was with or in which thread...so my appologies. Here is a quote from Andrew Murray that I believe accurately describes the choice one makes to come to salvation and the reality of God not intruding on man's free will....

"The Spirit of divine love can have no birth in any fallen creature, till it wills and chooses to be dead to all self, in a patient, humble resignation to the power and mercy of God."


Andrew Murray
Humility, chapter 10

Every man has a destiny
Every man has a free will

Though they may seem to be in conflict
they are not.

I assume this isn't the same Andrew Murray who is a scottish tennis player...

Originally posted by James Peter

I assume this isn't the same Andrew Murray who is a scottish tennis player...

ROFL...no. He was a minister in the 1800's and was at the forefront of what was called the "holiness" revival. Ironically he initialy tried to squelch the very revival he'd been praying for.

He has several excellent writtings. Humility is perhaps his best. At least for me at the moment since I've been reading it.

Here is a link to Humility...you can read it online

http://www.worldinvisible.com/librar...f00.0565.c.htm

[Quote-Forrest]
Here is a quote from Andrew Murray that I believe accurately describes the choice one makes to come to salvation and the reality of God not intruding on man's free will....
[/quote]

Nowhere do the Scriptures ever teach or imply that Salvation depends on human choice. The Scriptures explicitly teach that it is GOD Who has already chosen from before Creation who He will or whom He will not save. [Refer Chapter 1 of Ephesians].

As for “the reality of God not intruding on man's free will,” this is fallacious nonsense because it’s quite obvious from the Scriptures that if GOD didn’t Sovereignly overrule human wills, then everyone would end up in Hell where, because of their sin and sinfulness, they all rightly belong.

Those who are truly Christ’s people always exalt GOD’s Free Grace. Others merely prattle about “human free-will.”
“By their fruits, we will know them for what they really are.”

[Quote-Forrest]
"The Spirit of divine love can have no birth in any fallen creature, till it wills and chooses to be dead to all self, in a patient, humble resignation to the power and mercy of God."
[/quote]

Originally posted by James Peter

I assume this isn't the same Andrew Murray who is a Scottish tennis player...

It must have been the Scottish tennis player who wrote this heretical opinion because it’s obvious that he’s spiritually blind and knows nothing of the Scriptures, because if fallen unregenerate profoundly-depraved people had ever had an inherent ability to “will and choose to be dead to all self” and to “patiently, humbly resign themselves to the power and mercy of God," they wouldn’t be in desperate need of Christ the Saviour!

Originally posted by Forrest

Every man has a destiny, every man has a free will.
Though they may seem to be in conflict, they are not.

There’s never been any conflict between [1] God’s Election and Predestination for salvation and [2] human “free-will” because fallen Man’s will has never been either functionally or operationally free. In other words, “free-will” is an oxymoron and a mirage.

Finally, as all competent students of the Scriptures well know, Christ and His Apostles clearly and repeatedly teach in the Scriptures that the operative Choice in Salvation by Grace always belongs entirely to God. That’s why it’s always described as “Salvation by GRACE.]

To sum up, Andrew Murray is a blind guide. Therefore forsake him and instead, wholeheartedly commit yourself to GOD’s Scriptures of Truth.

Michael T.

Originally posted by Forrest

"The Spirit of divine love can have no birth in any fallen creature, till it wills and chooses to be dead to all self, in a patient, humble resignation to the power and mercy of God."

Well... and why "to be dead to all self" still is able to keep it's own "free" will? If you are dead, then you are dead... and you don't will anything! You are dead! Is that so hard to understand that dead does not will. It is God ho says "Lazarus come out". That is God who wills the dust to be alive man.
So I don't believe that dead can will something atall until God ressurects them.

Originally posted by Shazard

Well... and why "to be dead to all self" still is able to keep it's own "free" will? If you are dead, then you are dead... and you don't will anything! You are dead! Is that so hard to understand that dead does not will. It is God ho says "Lazarus come out". That is God who wills the dust to be alive man.
So I don't believe that dead can will something atall until God ressurects them.

You are right, something dead can not. The spirit is dead...but the soul is not.

Heb 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And it is within the soul that will of a man lies. It is the soul of a man that is lost...

Mat 16:26 (KJV) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

But the spirit returns to God.

Eccl 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Understand this and you will understand much...

1 Cor 15:45 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Originally posted by Michael T.

Nowhere do the Scriptures ever teach or imply that Salvation depends on human choice. The Scriptures explicitly teach that it is GOD Who has already chosen from before Creation who He will or whom He will not save. [Refer Chapter 1 of Ephesians].

As for “the reality of God not intruding on man's free will,” this is fallacious nonsense because it’s quite obvious from the Scriptures that if GOD didn’t Sovereignly overrule human wills, then everyone would end up in Hell where, because of their sin and sinfulness, they all rightly belong.

Those who are truly Christ’s people always exalt GOD’s Free Grace. Others merely prattle about “human free-will.”
“By their fruits, we will know them for what they really are.”





It must have been the Scottish tennis player who wrote this heretical opinion because it’s obvious that he’s spiritually blind and knows nothing of the Scriptures, because if fallen unregenerate profoundly-depraved people had ever had an inherent ability to “will and choose to be dead to all self” and to “patiently, humbly resign themselves to the power and mercy of God," they wouldn’t be in desperate need of Christ the Saviour!



There’s never been any conflict between [1] God’s Election and Predestination for salvation and [2] human “free-will” because fallen Man’s will has never been either functionally or operationally free. In other words, “free-will” is an oxymoron and a mirage.

Finally, as all competent students of the Scriptures well know, Christ and His Apostles clearly and repeatedly teach in the Scriptures that the operative Choice in Salvation by Grace always belongs entirely to God. That’s why it’s always described as “Salvation by GRACE.]

To sum up, Andrew Murray is a blind guide. Therefore forsake him and instead, wholeheartedly commit yourself to GOD’s Scriptures of Truth.

Michael T.

Thank you for your opinion, it has been appropriatly noted and disposed of.

I know God, I commit myself to Him...not the scriptures, not to TULIP theology, and certainly not to your interpretations.

Originally posted by Forrest

You are right, something dead can not. The spirit is dead...but the soul is not.

So... and that is what we teach. Human in his unborn state can will fleshy things. But as he has no God's Spirit he can't will Spiritual things! God does not make you to will tea or coffee, but until you are newborn you reject God's will, you are dead to God until God ressurects you. It is God who makes first move, talks to you through Word, touches your soul, makes you alive... At the point when you "choose" Jesus, you allready are alive! You just admit it... it is your first cry in the new world of GOd's Kingdom. You are not saved because of this cry, but because you are alive and saved. You can't cry until you are born. But to be born means to be alive!

Originally posted by Shazard

You are right, something dead can not. The spirit is dead...but the soul is not.

So... and that is what we teach. Human in his unborn state can will fleshy things. But as he has not God's Spirit, he can't will Spiritual things! God does not make you to will tea or coffee, but until you are newborn you reject God's will, you are dead to God until God ressurects you. It is God who makes first move, talks to you through [the] Word, touches your soul, makes you alive...
At the point when you "choose" Jesus, you already are alive! You just admit it... it is your first cry in the new world of GOD's Kingdom.
You are not saved because of this cry, but because you are alive and saved. You can't cry until you are born. But to be born means to be alive!

Well said, Shazard! Excellent points!
Salvation is always only by Grace; Never by human "free-will."

Michael T.

Originally posted by Forrest

You are right, something dead can not. The spirit is dead...but the soul is not.

Heb 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hi Forrest---

As I pointed out in the other thread you started, the soul is not some kind of third component to the human nature. Rather, it encompasses both spirit and body. In fact, your verse illustrates this well: just as marrow is part of the joint (the other part being bone), so spirit is part of the soul (the other part being the body). So this odd idea that the spirit is dead, but the soul is not, really doesn't make sense.

Regards in Christ,
Bnonn

Originally posted by Shazard

So... and that is what we teach. Human in his unborn state can will fleshy things. But as he has no God's Spirit he can't will Spiritual things! God does not make you to will tea or coffee, but until you are newborn you reject God's will, you are dead to God until God ressurects you. It is God who makes first move, talks to you through Word, touches your soul, makes you alive... At the point when you "choose" Jesus, you allready are alive! You just admit it... it is your first cry in the new world of GOd's Kingdom. You are not saved because of this cry, but because you are alive and saved. You can't cry until you are born. But to be born means to be alive!

I find it interesting that you have modified your argument. You seem to be agreeing that the soul is not dead...which is a step in the right direction. Which means your argument that something dead can not will at all is moot. So you have changed your argument to the living soul having no free will, but rather being a slave to the flesh.

Interesting...Now your challenge is to find a place in the scriptures where the soul is always at the mercy of what the flesh desires and can never supersede. Mine is simpler...daily life demonstrates that the soul of a man can often impose its will upon the flesh.

Originally posted by Bnonn

Hi Forrest---

As I pointed out in the other thread you started, the soul is not some kind of third component to the human nature. Rather, it encompasses both spirit and body. In fact, your verse illustrates this well: just as marrow is part of the joint (the other part being bone), so spirit is part of the soul (the other part being the body). So this odd idea that the spirit is dead, but the soul is not, really doesn't make sense.

Regards in Christ,
Bnonn

It doesn't make sense if what you say is true...but now again...

The scriptures say the spirit returns to God

The scriptures say it is the soul of a man that is lost.

The scriptures say...God is able to divide soul and spirit.

If they can be divided...they are different, even if they are connected.

But let's use your analogy. If the soul and body and spirit are all one integral unit...and your body is alive...and your soul is aware (thus alive)...how then can your spirit be dead?

Your own complaint works against you.

Originally posted by Michael T.

Well said, Shazard! Excellent points!
Salvation is always only by Grace; Never by human "free-will."

Michael T.

I have something to give you...

Originally posted by Forrest

I find it interesting that you have modified your argument. You seem to be agreeing that the soul is not dead...which is a step in the right direction. Which means your argument that something dead can not will at all is moot. So you have changed your argument to the living soul having no free will, but rather being a slave to the flesh.

Interesting...Now your challenge is to find a place in the scriptures where the soul is always at the mercy of what the flesh desires and can never supersede. Mine is simpler...daily life demonstrates that the soul of a man can often impose its will upon the flesh.

I didn't changed anything. It is you misunderstand what I mean by "dead" or "alive". Not everything what moves, goes to work and talks - is alive! There are two dimension horisontal, which is your fleshy everyday desires and wishes, there you are alive in flesh but still dead in Spirit. You have to be born from Spirit to walk in Spirit. Read John 3

Hi Forrest---

As I said in your other thread, you're erroneously assuming that "spiritually dead" means "the spirit is dead" rather than "dead to spiritual things".

Until you correct this misunderstanding, I'm afraid you will continue to nurture such error as the one into which you're attempting to lead others here...

Regards,
Bnonn

Originally posted by Shazard

I didn't changed anything. It is you misunderstand what I mean by "dead" or "alive". Not everything what moves, goes to work and talks - is alive! There are two dimension horisontal, which is your fleshy everyday desires and wishes, there you are alive in flesh but still dead in Spirit. You have to be born from Spirit to walk in Spirit. Read John 3

Hmm- how interesting...now there is confusion between what dead and alive mean?

Your statement was that anything dead can have no will.

I pointed out the spirit is dead...but the soul is not. You seemed to agree the soul is alive...now you seem to be ignoring the soul entirely...

Again, I'll stand by my earlier statement...I believe those who believe the unsaved have no free will, those who believe in this total depravity theory...that they do not understand the distinction between spirit and soul, or they do not accept such a distinction exists.

Again I'll point back to two scriptures that should make it clear God sees them as distinct.

The spirit of a man returns to God

The soul of a man is lost

Clearly Jesus would not have made such a statement, that a mans soul can be lost if it returned back to God.

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say the soul of a man is dead! The soul is the mind, will memory and emotions. The spirit is connected to God, and those whose spirit is alive begin to see the kingdom of God in operation.

This is what Jesus was talking about in John 3...unless a man is born again he can not see the kingdom of heaven.