Acts 13:38. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Romans 3:19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.



Galations 6:1. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


The law in Christ is refered to in some of the above verses. This is not the law given to Moses as that law was fulfilled with Christ's death and resurrection and being taken up into heaven.

However there is still law as the verses demonstrate.

Yes, the Law of Faith, given by Christ .... through Paul.

The law in Christ is refered to in some of the above verses. This is not the law given to Moses as that law was fulfilled with Christ's death and resurrection and being taken up into heaven.

Christ is a lawgiver, but the law of God has not changed. It was just misinterpreted by the Jews, Christ gives us a proper interpretation and application of the law.

All of Paul's polemics against the "Law of Moses" are against Judaism, that is to say the Law of Moses AS MEDIATOR, because only Christ is mediator, he is never against the law as law.

Thus, denying the law is mediator is establishing the "law of Christ" in that same law.

Cordially,

Thomas

Today @ 07:33 PM post located here
Thomas2003:



Christ is a lawgiver, but the law of God has not changed. It was just misinterpreted by the Jews, Christ gives us a proper interpretation and application of the law.

All of Paul's polemics against the "Law of Moses" are against Judaism, that is to say the Law of Moses AS MEDIATOR, because only Christ is mediator, he is never against the law as law.

Thus, denying the law is mediator is establishing the "law of Christ" in that same law.

Cordially,

Thomas

Paul explicitly describes the Law as having but one purpose -- to bring an unbeliever to Christ by condemning him and thereby demonstrating his need for a Savior. The Law is not for a righteous man, but only for a sinner. We used to be sinners. We are now saints. The Law is not for us.

Paul explicitly describes the Law as having but one purpose -- to bring an unbeliever to Christ by condemning him and thereby demonstrating his need for a Savior. The Law is not for a righteous man, but only for a sinner. We used to be sinners. We are now saints. The Law is not for us

The law is a double edged sword (Hebrews 4:12), while it is no longer against us - it is for our protection.

Paul speaks in Romans 7 of the law of liberty and the law of sin, it is the same law, each "edge" of the blade. He is properly applying the law, but if you reject law in its entirety then you fall into antinomianism.

You will have law whether or not you want it or claim it is nor for us as Christians as we are social creatures living in society. If we do not support God's law, which is for our good but against the unregenerate (1 Timothy 1:9), then the ungodly will most assuredly make a law against you and oppress your liberty in Christ to promote his lawlessness and make it the principle of life.

We are experiencing this today in America. The people have rejected God's law and it is not to have dominion over them, their sexuality especially is a good example. But God has already established His wrath upon all who practice such things, and homosexuals wish to make their sin a principle of modern life. If you say the Law of God is not for us, then simultaneously you are saying it is not against them. The only thing Paul does is turn the blade around.

Modern Christians claim the law is not for them but against sinners, as you have claimed, but simulatenously they are casting off the law in its entirety - and thus nothing stands against the sinners. They then are free to place you in a prison of their laws - which are eternally harsher that God's law against them.

I'll give you an example. As Christians we understand marriage in terms of God's law. It is a temporal estate with eternal fruit in our children - but our marriages don't pass death and we take vows before God saying "until death do us part." The homosexual takes different vows as one jewerly manufacture shows, it enscribes on the inside of each of its ring sets, "Two of the same together forever." Their vows before God are representative of their estate - it is eternal, into hell.

That Scripture that says, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17 is being manifested before our very eyes. They will manifest their eternal abode in our midst and we can say the "law is not for us" but as saints we will stand under the same wrath because He brings it down corporately on the whole nation that practices these things.

As a redeemed man we have the natural ability to keep God's commandments as just a natural outworking of our duty to God, I'm speaking of the outward man being under the law of sin, but the inward man being under the law of God as Paul taught in Romans 7. The wicked, however, are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7) So, what, then do we make sin abound so that grace can abound the more and become lawless? No, we live in the Spirit and crucify our flesh daily, denying it the lusts thereof, but we do that through God's law mortifying the deeds of our bodies.

Cordially,

Thomas

I am involved in an e-mail discussion with a Christian aquaintance who believes that Christians must follow the Mosaic(spelling?) law. They follow the kosher laws, and observe the Sabbath on Saturday. I would like to see what Christians here believe, and what the "mainstream" Christian opinion is.

1) Are Christians still under the LAW
Why or why not

2)If not, does that include the Ten Commandments?
If so, does that include the "Sabbath", if so, how can the day of the Sabbath be changed?

I don't really want to debate or argue, I just would like to hear different opinions on this.

Thanks!
-P

Thanks Passant normally this area is for theists only but inquiries and requests such as yours are very welcome.

The trouble with those who say we are under the Mosaic Law is that they must cut and pare it to size; remove the curses first (yet often keep the blessings), remove the civil and ceremonial bits - yet convert circumcision into baptism for instance, and often keep certain other bits they like, and even pare down the 10c's, esp Sabbath keeping.

Paul is clear that the Mosaic Law never engenders faith, nor does it provide for our needs as saints; it commands & condemns; it reveals sin, it never inculcated good behaviour. It is a pedagogue, keeping us in bondage until Christ comes; Christ does all the work now, and the NT is full of precepts from him.

To deny that the Mosaic Law has no place in our lives as a rule of life may be doctrinal antinomianism to some, yet it is not antinomianism as such - and the situation in the West is not due to that, but due to millions of fake converts flooding the church, just as they did when the vandals, goths etc were converted en masse. The problem of today is cheap grace, easy believism, in which no work of the Spirit is discerned, and a simple yes is enough to be told, you're a Christian, pray, read your Bible, tell someone, and don't worry about your feelings.

The work of God is to write his law on the heart, the same law he wrote on Abraham's heart 430 years before the law, and Noah's heart hundreds of years before that. This law is our conformity to Christ, which the Mosaic Law never worked towards. The Mosaic Law said, love our neighbour; Christ's law says love your enemies. The Mosaic Law says do not steal; Christ's law says, don't even think about it.

The Mosaic Law was a specific covenant law for national Israel, and also reveals the depths to which humanity has sunk; it is a ministry of condemnation and death - if a righteousness could be achieved by the law, then faith is void - and you do not need to separate bits off and say use this. The fact that there are similarities between the Mosaic Law and Christ's law are down to the fact that they come from the same source. that it can be referred to, along with all the rest of the OT, does not make it the rule for life in the ay Presbies have always maintained, and denigrated others as antinomians for not following them.

This recent book by an academic shows clearly that those who did not hold to the Mosaic Law as a rule of life were not antinomians by any means:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...623811-2064639
High Calvinists in Action: Calvinism and the City - Manchester and London, 1810-1860
Ian J. Shaw

"Based on extensive archival research of churches in Manchester and London in the years 1810-60, it considers the work and thought of ministers who held to a high Calvinistic form of theology. Exploration of this little studied and often derided grouping reveals that their role in the religious and social life of these cities was highly active and responsive, and merits serious reappraisal."

Thanks Passant normally this area is for theists only but inquiries and requests such as yours are very welcome.

Thanks Dee Dee, but you know I am a theist. I realize that Deism is the red headed stepchild of theism, in fact you don't even list it as a form of belief in the profile section, (maybe something to tweak!) but it is just as valid! Or did you mean this area is for Christians only, in which case I apoligize, and thank you for the exception.

Thanks for the respone Solly!
Just a couple of questions,
So do you believe that when the Law was removed (fulffiled) that the Ten Commandments were also removed?

I may need to be discussed in another place, or maybe it's been discussed here, but as to the Law being a curse, this one confuses me. The O.T. makes the Law sound like a great thing, a contract between God and the Jews, and a path to salvation. Paul on the other hand, makes the Law sound like a condemnation, as you said,

Paul is clear that the Mosaic Law never engenders faith, nor does it provide for our needs as saints; it commands & condemns; it reveals sin, it never inculcated good behaviour. It is a pedagogue, keeping us in bondage until Christ comes; Christ does all the work now, and the NT is full of precepts from him.

This does seem exactly what Paul was saying. So was the Law keeping Jews in bondage? Did it never inculcate good behaviour?
What was the purpose exactly?

You also mentioned that God wrote his law on Abrahams heart. My friend claims that this means the SAME law that God gave to Moses. Now I can't buy this, if it was so, why did God have to give the samw Law to Moses, in a different manner? What can I point to that shows what laws Abraham recieved and followed?

Thanks!
-P

Today @ 01:59 PM post located here
Passant:
Thanks for the respone Solly!

That's Ok. I wasn't responding to you specifically, but...

Just a couple of questions,

...shoot.

So do you believe that when the Law was removed (fulffiled) that the Ten Commandments were also removed?

The Ten Commandments as such are the essential part of the Mosaic Law given in covenant to Israel at Sinai; so, as an external law written on stone, and for the purposes of keeping Israel in the place of blessing in the land to which they were bieng directed, then yes, it is fulfilled and done away with in Christ for believers, not only Jews, but all believers, because it showed what was expected of people at a bare minimum; Israel was typical of humanity; they replayed the Garden of Eden in the promised land - commandment, disobedience, punishment, restoration - again and again. The whole point is to show, and the law shows, that we can't do it ourselves, a further work is needed, as Moses himself told them:

Scripture Verse:

Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And as paul points out

Scripture Verse:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

It may need to be discussed in another place, or maybe it's been discussed here, but as to the Law being a curse, this one confuses me. The O.T. makes the Law sound like a great thing, a contract between God and the Jews, and a path to salvation. Paul on the other hand, makes the Law sound like a condemnation, as you said

The law is not a curse, the law is holy righteous and good; we have failed, not the law - but the law had a limited scope and task, and still does - we call it "preaching the law" in a Jonathan Edwards stylie. It reveals, through the spirit's work, our state and standing before God, in a way that natural conscience can't, or at least it can't be ignored as easily, as in Rom 1.18-32.

Paul points out, of those that follow the law, as a way of life and to life:

Scripture Verse:

Rom 4:14,15 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

This does seem exactly what Paul was saying. So was the Law keeping Jews in bondage? Did it never inculcate good behaviour?
What was the purpose exactly?

All of humanity was in bondage, as sinners; the Jews revealed this fact by the will of God by not obeying the covenant law themselves. With all their advantages - including God speaking to them - they still rebelled and turned to idolatry; hence Paul's litany of depravity in Romans 3.10-18.

You also mentioned that God wrote his law on Abrahams heart. My friend claims that this means the SAME law that God gave to Moses. Now I can't buy this, if it was so, why did God have to give the samw Law to Moses, in a different manner? What can I point to that shows what laws Abraham recieved and followed?

The ancient Jews also believed that Abraham had the Mosaic law before it was given 430 years later - they believed it was eternal, rather like the Muslims believe the Koran existed in heaven before it was given to Mohammed - and that Abraham obeyed this law, and was justified before God on the basis of it.
Paul's argument is simple: the law did not exist then, but righteousness from God did:

Scripture Verse:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Solly,
Well, for not responding to me specifically, you did a pretty good job! Thanks for the last response, it was very helpfull!

Oy Vey!

eliyosef says: "Oy Vey!"

Is that similar to "Ach du leiber"?

James 1:25 reveals another law in Christ.

ollie

I'm leaning towards the opinion that the Mosaic Law, including the 10 Commandments, are not something which the Christian is required to follow. I know some people pretty much argue that the 10Cs are the moral law that is written on everyone's heart I'm not convinced. I've read a few articles, enought to provoke my interest once this year's exams are over, into the concept of the Law of Noah - which was given to all of mankind after the flood. It doesn't seem to be laid out anywhere explicitly though and has to be deduced but it does provide a certain base standard that almost all of humanity would actually agree with...

Anyway for me the whole concept of what 'law' a christian must obey turns on "if you love me you will obey my commandments". The natural result of love of Christ is an eagerness to obey Him and to live lives which glorify Him. Such lives would certainly include follows the instructions given on sexual relations, general attitude etc. Does anyone have a list of all the universal commandments (i.e. excluding instructions given to specific individuals etc) from the NT out of interest? It would save me doing it myself and I don't have time.

Originally posted by James Peter

I'm leaning towards the opinion that the Mosaic Law, including the 10 Commandments, are not something which the Christian is required to follow. I know some people pretty much argue that the 10Cs are the moral law that is written on everyone's heart I'm not convinced. I've read a few articles, enought to provoke my interest once this year's exams are over, into the concept of the Law of Noah - which was given to all of mankind after the flood. It doesn't seem to be laid out anywhere explicitly though and has to be deduced but it does provide a certain base standard that almost all of humanity would actually agree with...

Anyway for me the whole concept of what 'law' a christian must obey turns on "if you love me you will obey my commandments". The natural result of love of Christ is an eagerness to obey Him and to live lives which glorify Him. Such lives would certainly include follows the instructions given on sexual relations, general attitude etc. Does anyone have a list of all the universal commandments (i.e. excluding instructions given to specific individuals etc) from the NT out of interest? It would save me doing it myself and I don't have time.

Hi JP. I pretty much keep this framed on my wall, but don't know if this is what you are actually looking for brother. It has held me up after 30yrs of marriage and 2 kids LOL. Love is the sword that can conquer anything in life.

Gala 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those [who are] Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.