What is “this generation”?

Matt 12:41-42

The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

The meaning of “this generation” is indicated by words like “now” and “is here.” The fact is, this was not true of all Israelites as an ethnic group throughout their history. Consequently, in Matthew 12 the phrase does not refer to Israelites as a race, it refers to a group of people contemporary with Jesus, the generation alive at the time.

Matt 23:33-36

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

What does the phrase mean here? Could it mean “this race”? This possibility is definitively ruled out, because Jesus is able to make a distinction between former Jews who killed the prophets, and “this generation.” But if generation meant “race” here, then those OT Jews who killed the prophets would themselves be part of this generation, which is not the case here. Consequently, in Matthew 23, the phrase “this generation” refers to those alive when Jesus was speaking.

Notice how this avoids the charge of anti-Semitism. If the phrase literally meant “this race,” then anywhere that Jews are, at any time in history, right up to the present day, they are to be held accountable for the death of Christ. This understanding of “this generation” would make anti-Semitism a Christian duty. But it is not, since Jesus was speaking of a particular generation who are now dead.

Notice, by the way, that this is placed late in chapter 23 of Matthew’s Gospel, just prior to chapter 24 when Jesus says that “this generation” would not pass away until all those things came to pass.

Luke 17:22-25

Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

This case is more ambiguous, since it is possible that Jesus refers here to the race, even though that is a rare meaning. But notice – the event of Jesus’ rejection is placed just prior to the coming of the Son of Man, an even that will be done by “this generation.” We know, of course, that Jesus really was rejected by those living at the time, suggesting that this case of the phrase should be taken in its normal sense.

So my question is this: When Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse that the prophesied events would occur within “this generation,” why do futurists engage in special pleading by attributing a meaning to the common phrase “this generation” that is foreign to the New Testament writers?

If anyone objects to this question, the remedy is simple: Please find a case of “this generation” in the Gospels which clearly does refer to the race, rather than the generation alive at the time.

Please, no trolling. There are two questions involved in this thread, and they both involve the phrase “this generation.” Thank you (Mickey).

Surely the futurists have something to say about the exegetical (not theological) issue here: the use of this phrase in the Gospels. Could it really be that they accept this?

Theonomy,

I happen to agree with your conclusion on "this generation" although I find it must be contextually derived in all cases, most of which are quite obvious. That said, you will note from my work on Matt 24 that I place that verse in a segment devoted to AD70.

Also, based on my work on Matt 24, I see a segment of the discourse devoted to a time quite remote from AD70.

Ted

Thanks Ted. Yeah, I realise that you see two separate time periods referred to at different points in the dialogue, but I appreciate your saying that you see what I see about the phrase "this generation."

Denying that it means the generation of the Apostles' day means exegeting that phrase differently here than anywhere else in the Gospels, which is a clear cut case of special pleading. I'm glad you don't do that.

Why not consider the opinion of Christians that lived before 1500? Or why not consider someone before 200? Phillip Schaff, an editor of the ANE, said if we didn't have a NT we could almost entirely reconstruct it from the writings of the church fathers in the first 200 years of church history. Why should we neglect such a resource?

Originally posted by Ted

Theonomy,

I happen to agree with your conclusion on "this generation" although I find it must be contextually derived in all cases, most of which are quite obvious. That said, you will note from my work on Matt 24 that I place that verse in a segment devoted to AD70.

Also, based on my work on Matt 24, I see a segment of the discourse devoted to a time quite remote from AD70.

Ted,

Do not the words of the Lord Jesus about "this generation" apply to the world wide jugdment of which He describes in the context?:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by eschaton

Why not consider the opinion of Christians that lived before 1500? Or why not consider someone before 200? Phillip Schaff, an editor of the ANE, said if we didn't have a NT we could almost entirely reconstruct it from the writings of the church fathers in the first 200 years of church history. Why should we neglect such a resource?

eschaton,

It is indeed interesting that the earliest commentaries that we have on Daniel teach that the 70th week remains in the future.That directly contradicts the teaching of the preterists:

"Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, ‘And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease.’ By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations" (Hippolytus,"Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Section 43).

Irenaeus,who supposedly studied under Polycarp (who was regarded as a disciple of the Apostles themselves),placed the events described in the 9th chapter of Daniel in the future:

"And then he (Daniel) points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week" (Irenaeus,"Against Heresies",Book 5,Section 3,4).

In Christ,
Mickey

I think those are valid points Mickey. But I'm sure that we, or at least I am going to be accused of trolling and not sticking to the subject.

I don't think the original questions are valid because they take the word out of context. Jesus didn't teach in a legalistic, literalistic fashion. Indeed, Origen complained that non-Christians said that the Bible had to be understood literally, while other ancient Greek and Egyptian texts were to be understood allegorically. Here are some comments from the Catena Aurea.

Origen: The uninstructed refer the words to the destruction of Jerusalem, and suppose them to have been said of that generation which saw Christ’s death, that it should not pass away before the city should be destroyed. But I doubt that they would succeed in thus expounding every word from that, “one stone shall not be left upon another,” to that, “it is even at the door;” in some perhaps they would succeed, in others not altogether.

Chrys.: All these things therefore mean what was said of the end of Jerusalem, of the false prophets, and the false Christs, and all the rest which shall happen down to the time of Christ’s coming, That He said, “This generation,” He meant not of the men then living, but of the generation of the faithful; for so Scripture uses to speak of generations, not of time only, but of place, life, and conversation; as it is said, “This, is the generation of them that seek the Lord.” [Ps 24:6]

Herein He teaches that Jerusalem shall perish, and the greater part of the Jews be destroyed, but that no trial shall overthrow the generation of the faithful.

Origen: Yet shall the generation of the Church survive the whole of this world, that it may inherit the world to come, yet it shall not pass away until all these things have come to pass. But when all these shall have been fulfilled, then not the earth only but the heavens also shall pass away; that is, not only the men whose life is earthly, and who are therefore called the earth, but also they whose conversation is in heaven, and who are therefore called the heaven; these “shall pass away” to things to come, that they may come to better things.

But the words spoken by the Saviour shall not pass away, because they effect and shall ever effect their purpose; but the perfect and they that admit no further improvement, passing through what they are, come to that which they are not; and this is that, “My words shall not pass away.” And perhaps the words of Moses and the Prophets have passed away, because all that they prophesied has831 been fulfilled; but the words of Christ are always complete, daily fulfilling and to be fulfilled in the saints. Or perhaps we ought not to say that the words of Moses and the Prophets are once for all fulfilled; seeing they also are the words of the Son of God, and are fulfilled continually.

Jerome: Or, by “generation” here He means the whole human race, and the Jews in particular. And He adds, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away,” to confirm their faith in what has gone before; as though He had said, it is easier to destroy things solid and immovable, than that aught should fail of my words.

Hilary: For heaven and earth have in their constitution no necessity of existence, but Christ’s words derived from eternity have in them such virtue that they must needs abide.

Jerome: The heaven and the earth shall pass away by a change, not by annihilation; for how should the “sun be darkened, and the moon not give her light,” if earth and heaven in which these are should be no more?

Raban.: The heaven which shall pass away is not the starry [marg. note: sidereum] but the atmospheric [marg. note: aereum] heaven which of old was destroyed by the deluge.

Chrys.: He brings forward the elements of the earth to shew that the Church is of more value than either heaven or earth, and that He is Maker of all things. [marg. note: 2 Pet 3:5]

Originally posted by Mickey

Do not the words of the Lord Jesus about "this generation" apply to the world wide jugdment of which He describes in the context?:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).

You are obviously linking “till all be fulfilled” and “on the face of the whole earth.” I’m not sure that’s justified.

First, you are using the KJV. Several modern translations have “till all these things are fulfilled.” I would defer to one of our resident Greek experts, but obviously the translators of the NIV, for example, think that the backward reference is justified. That’s not the only reason to question your conclusion.

If we look at Matt 5:17-18, we find the classic “not one jot or one tittle will pass from the Law till all be fulfilled.” This seems prima facie evidence that the Torah will be unchanged until the parousia. Yet Hebrews 7 clearly says that the Law has been changed to allow Jesus to be our high priest. Thus, “a jot or tittle” has passed from the Law as of the ascension. The question then becomes, “What is the ‘all’ in view?”

In Jesus’ case, the “all” must be the prophecies about His first advent. Those prophecies, concluding in His death and resurrection, are the immediate causal precursors to Heb 7. Applied to Luke 21, we have a legitimate application of the same verbal form by the same speaker to an “all” defined or implied earlier. Thus, I find myself in agreement with the NIV translators for a second reason.

Ted

Originally posted by Ted

You are obviously linking “till all be fulfilled” and “on the face of the whole earth.” I’m not sure that’s justified.

First, you are using the KJV. Several modern translations have “till all these things are fulfilled.” I would defer to one of our resident Greek experts, but obviously the translators of the NIV, for example, think that the backward reference is justified. That’s not the only reason to question your conclusion.

Ted,if we look backward from "this generation" we read:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:25-27).

Here we see that after the signs in the sky there will be distress of "nations".

The people in the nations will be in distress because they will be fearful of the things coming on the earth.

The word "earth" is translated from the Greek word "oikoumene",and that word means "the inhabited earth" ("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

Either backward or forward the reference is in regard to a world wide judgment or harvest.And since the generation then living saw no sech thing then the words "this generation" does not refer to the generation that was living when the Lord Jesus spoke those words.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

Ted,if we look backward from "this generation" we read:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk.21:25-27).

Here we see that after the signs in the sky there will be distress of "nations".

The people in the nations will be in distress because they will be fearful of the things coming on the earth.

The word "earth" is translated from the Greek word "oikoumene",and that word means "the inhabited earth" ("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

Either backward or forward the reference is in regard to a world wide judgment or harvest.And since the generation then living saw no sech thing then the words "this generation" does not refer to the generation that was living when the Lord Jesus spoke those words.

In Christ,
Mickey

Mickey, the topic of this thread is: The way the phrase "this generation" is used in the Gospels, and the fact that this same phrase is used un Matt 24. You've not even touched on that. You're letting your systematised eschatology force to to leave the phrase unexegeted.

Originally posted by Ted

You are obviously linking “till all be fulfilled” and “on the face of the whole earth.” I’m not sure that’s justified.

First, you are using the KJV. Several modern translations have “till all these things are fulfilled.” I would defer to one of our resident Greek experts, but obviously the translators of the NIV, for example, think that the backward reference is justified. That’s not the only reason to question your conclusion.

Right, Ted.

In the Greek text the clause is εως αν παντα ταυτα γενηται = ‘until all these things have taken place’. The reference is to back to what Jesus had said in 23:34-24:2

The significant words in question are παντα ταυτα = ‘all these things’ = the exact words used by Jesus in 24:2, “You see all these things [ταυτα παντα], do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.”

The disciples picked up on that and asked, “Tell us, when will these things [ταυτα] be . . .”

John

Originally posted by Theonomy

Mickey, the topic of this thread is: The way the phrase "this generation" is used in the Gospels, and the fact that this same phrase is used un Matt 24. You've not even touched on that. You're letting your systematised eschatology force to to leave the phrase unexegeted.

I am saying that the phrase "this generation" cannot refer to the generation living when the Lord spoke those words because that generation saw no world wide judgment.

And the same phrase is used at Luke 21:32 as well.And "Luke" is one of the gospels.

And I am quoting Scripture and not quoting any of my systemized eschatology.

Why do you not address the verses at Luke 21:25-27?

Mickey,

The structure of the argument in Luke is the same as in Matthew. I won't re-post my entire discussion of the structure, but I see Luke 21:25-28 as a sidelight on the ultimate end-times (more clearly shown in Matt 24), given largely as a parenthetical. Then in the discussion of the fig tree, Jesus returns to AD70 issues, and "all these things" refers to that. Thus, there is a separation between the two in the structure of the apocalypse. (For details, please look at my full paper at http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...5&page=1&pp=16.)

Ted

Originally posted by Ted

Mickey,

The structure of the argument in Luke is the same as in Matthew. I won't re-post my entire discussion of the structure, but I see Luke 21:25-28 as a sidelight on the ultimate end-times (more clearly shown in Matt 24), given largely as a parenthetical. Then in the discussion of the fig tree, Jesus returns to AD70 issues, and "all these things" refers to that. Thus, there is a separation between the two in the structure of the apocalypse. (For details, please look at my full paper at http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...page=1&pp=16.)

Ted,as you know your following translation of this verse changes how the verse as well as the Olivet Discouse should be understood:

After the tribulation of those days, suddenly the sun will be darkened, (Matt 24:29 personal translation.)

I can find no other Bible version that translates the verse that way.What credentials do you have in regard to the Greek language?

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

I am saying that the phrase "this generation" cannot refer to the generation living when the Lord spoke those words because that generation saw no world wide judgment.

And the same phrase is used at Luke 21:32 as well.And "Luke" is one of the gospels.

And I am quoting Scripture and not quoting any of my systemized eschatology.

That is a mistaken claim. You are taking your theological conclusions about all the New Testament says about eschatology, and you are using those conclusions of yours to avoid the plain meaning of the phrase "theis generation."

By contrast, I am doing exegesis. I am looking at the phrase translated "this generation," and noting its meaning based on its usage, and then simply daring to say that we interpret that phrase in the ordinary manner in Matthew 24. Doing exegesis will help you too. For example, it will help you to correct your views about what the events in the Olivet discourse really are, since the plain words of Jesus will force you to say that they are first century events.

Why do you not address the verses at Luke 21:25-27?

You mean the reference to signs in the sky, which I have explained in another thread, and which you now want to divert the topic of this thread to? Sorry bud, it aint happening.