Context:

Matthew 16:28 (ESV) — emphasis added

Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus

²⁴ Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. ²⁵ For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. ²⁶ For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? ²⁷ For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. ²⁸ Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Comment:

Verse 27 referred to Jesus’ future ‘coming’ as judge; this verse specifies, with all the solemn assurance of Jesus’ Truly, I say to you, that that ‘coming’ (as king, hence his authority to judge) will be witnessed by some of his audience before they die. This raises the same problem as 10:23, of an apparent prediction of the parousia with the first century. See the discussion at 10:23, to which it may be added that here the ‘coming’ is more specifically one of judgment and kingly authority. Another distinctive feature of this saying is that it immediately precedes the account of Jesus’ transfiguration, which has led some to conclude that that event, with its ‘proleptic vision’ of Jesus’ glory, was the specific ‘seeing’ here predicted. But the transfiguration hardly amounts to a fulfillment of the Son of man’s ‘coming with his angels to repay every man’ (v. 27), even though it may be a foretaste of such a coming. It is better not to look for a specific event, but to see the fulfillment of this prediction, with its unmistakable echo of Daniel 7:13-14, in the authority of the risen Jesus which will be proclaimed (again in terms drawn from Dn. 7:14) in 28:18. There is no more reason here than in 10:23 to interpret the ‘coming’ as a coming to earth; as in Daniel 7:13-14 it is a coming to God to receive his kingdom. It will be ‘seen’ not so much in a single event as in the perception that Jesus, risen and vindicated at God’s right hand, is now in the position of supreme authority, an authority which will reach its culmination when Jesus, the Son of man, is revealed as judge in the final assize.

Originally posted by John Reece

Another distinctive feature of this saying is that it immediately precedes the account of Jesus’ transfiguration, which has led some to conclude that that event, with its ‘proleptic vision’ of Jesus’ glory, was the specific ‘seeing’ here predicted.

John,the Apostle Peter himself used the words "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" to describe the events in regard to the transfiguration:


"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount" (2Pet.1:16-18).

Peter says that he was was an eyewitness of His "majesty".The word "majesty" is translated from the Greek word "megaleiotes" and that word means "greatness,magnificence…of the visible splendor of the divine majesty as it appeared in the transfiguration of Christ,2 Peter i.16"("Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon").

In each gospel that records the words of the Lord Jesus saying that some of His Apostles will see Him in the kingdom the events of the "transfiguration" immediately follow.On the holy mount "His face did shine like the sun,and His rainment was as white as the light" (Mt.17:2).

The event at the transfiguration fulfilled the words of the Lord Jesus when He said that some of His Apostles would "not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"

But the transfiguration hardly amounts to a fulfillment of the Son of man’s ‘coming with his angels to repay every man’ (v. 27), even though it may be a foretaste of such a coming.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Mt.16:27).

At other places we can read the following in regard to when the Lord comes with His angels:

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Thess.1:7,8).

There is nothing here that even hints that the judgment is limited to only unbelievers living in Judea or Jerusalem.Instead it speaks of the Lord taking vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel.

And if "every man" is recompensed "according to his works" then we would expect that the saints living in the first century would have received their just rewards.But there is no evidence that this ever occurred.The preterists teach that only the unbelievers in Judea were recompensed but they say nothing about the rewards that the saints are due.

In Christ,
Mickey

LOL That would amount to a pretty heavey handed way of saying 'some of you will live another week'...

There must be a word for compounding the pathetic... probably starts with M.

Originally posted by Mickey

The event at the transfiguration fulfilled the words of the Lord Jesus when He said that some of His Apostles would "not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"
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"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Mt.16:27).

[…]

There is nothing here that even hints that the judgment is limited to only unbelievers living in Judea or Jerusalem.Instead it speaks of the Lord taking vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel.

And if "every man" is recompensed "according to his works" then we would expect that the saints living in the first century would have received their just rewards.But there is no evidence that this ever occurred.The preterists teach that only the unbelievers in Judea were recompensed but they say nothing about the rewards that the saints are due.

In Christ,
Mickey

On this thread, I wish you would stick to the text and stop making assertions about what ‘The preterists teach’. Please save that kind of polemic for your own threads.

Do you think that verse 27 and verse 28 refer to the same ‘coming’?

I predict some of us on this thread will be alive next week.

Originally posted by Gerbil Xena

I predict some of us on this thread will be alive next week.

Here is D. A. Carson’s commentary on Matthew 16:28 (The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, volume 8: Zondervan, 1984):

Many have held that this verse refers to the Transfiguration, the very next pericope in both Matthew and Mark. The problem is two-fold. First, “some who are standing here will not taste death before they see” is an extraordinary way to refer to Peter, James, and John, who witness the Transfiguration a mere six days later (17:1). Second, as magnificent as the Transfiguration was, it is not entirely clear how the Son of Man comes in his kingdom (Matthew) or the kingdom comes in power (Mark) through this event.

It seems best to take 16:28 as having a more general reference — viz., not referring simply to the Resurrection, to Pentecost, or the like, but to the manifestation of Christ’s kingly reign exhibited after the Resurrection in a host of ways, not the least of them being the rapid multiplication of disciples and the mission to the Gentiles. Some of those standing there would live to see Jesus’ Gospel proclaimed throughout the Roman Empire and a rich “harvest” (cf. 9:37-38) of converts reaped for Jesus Messiah. This best suits the flexibility of the “kingdom” concept in the synoptic Gospels (see on 3:2; 10:23; 12:28) and the present context. Thus 16:28 does not refer to the same thing as 10:23. But the distinction is made, not on the basis that consistency is the “the hobgoblin of little minds,” but on the basis of context.
This pericope contains an important chiasm:
…..v. 24: challenge to take up the cross and follow Christ in the immediate future
……….v. 25: incentive — reward and punishment at the Parousia
……………v. 26: central weighing of values
……….v. 27: incentive — reward and punishment at the Parousia
…..v. 28: promise of witnessing the kingdom power of Jesus in the immediate future
The setting is quite different from that in 10:23. But if the evidence of the kingdom is seen in the church, this does not mean that the church and the kingdom are to be identified. Rather, at this point in salvation history it is the power of the kingdom working through Jesus’ disciples that call the church into being. Moreover, as Brower (pp. 32.ff) points out, the larger context also offers important insights. Though the Transfiguration is not the fulfillment of v. 28, it is related to it in an important way. Sections that stress suffering and the Cross (16:21-28; 17:9-13) envelop the Transfiguration and bracket this clearest manifestation of divine glory by suffering. The way to glory is the way of the Cross, and the reign of the Son of man, which “some standing here” will see before they “taste death,” will be inaugurated by the Cross.

Originally posted by John Reece

Do you think that verse 27 and verse 28 refer to the same ‘coming’?

Of course not.After all,the saints living in the first century who deserved a reward did not receive a reward.


If we look at the context we can see that it was here that the Lord told His Apostles that He would suffer and die (16:21).Surely this would raise questions in the minds of His Apostles.If the Lord was to die what would that mean about the kingdom?Would the prophecies of the OT in regard to the kingdom be fulfilled?


Not only that He also told them to follow Him and that whoever shall lose his life for His sake shall find it (16:25).So the subject here is loosing one's life for the sake of following the Lord:

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Mt.16:25:26).

His Apostles would need reassurance at this point in time that He would ultimately triumph and that He would return,so the Lord tells them:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (v.27).

Then to strengthen his assurance even more He then tells them that "most assuredly" (verily) some of them would see Him coming in His kingdom before they died:

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (v.28).

Then to crown his assurances He next lets some of His Apostles see Him coming in His kingdom.It is not just a big coincidence that in each gospel that records the words of the Lord Jesus saying that some of His Apostles will see Him in the kingdom the events of the "transfiguration" immediately follow.And when Peter speaks of the transfiguration he states that they saw the "coming of our Lord".


And those who were with Him at the transfiguration knew that they were indeed seeing the kingdom when they saw Moses and Elijiah.After all,they were told that the resurrected saints would be resurrected in the kingdom:

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God" (Lk.13:28-29).

This was no coincidence either.So unless you believe that these verses are surrounded by two big coincidences then the Lord's words spoken to His Apostles that some of them would see Him coming in the kingdom was fulfilled at the transfiguration.

Now it is your turn to answer a couple of questions in regard to verse 27:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (v.27).

Do you think that "every man" was recompensed according to his works in A.D. 70? In other words,do you believe that every unrighteous man received a just punishment and every saint deserving rewards received that reward?

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

John,the Apostle Peter himself used the words "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" to describe the events in regard to the transfiguration:


"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount" (2Pet.1:16-18).

Mickey, the "coming" referred to here is not the transfiguration, but rather the first coming of Christ, namely the incarnation. The transfiguration is the point during the first coming at which Peter witnessed His majesty, but it is not the "coming."

Originally posted by Mickey

Do you think that "every man" was recompensed according to his works in A.D. 70? In other words,do you believe that every unrighteous man received a just punishment and every saint deserving rewards received that reward?

Do you think they were at the transfiguration? Why don't you believe the words of Jesus ?

Originally posted by Gerbil Xena

Do you think they were at the transfiguration? Why don't you believe the words of Jesus ?

LOL Good work,,,but dont leave the Mickey hat on too long, it might be contagious.

Interesting none on the DF side have jumped in to help Mickey, or even suggest he turn off the spigot before he drowns.

Originally posted by Mickey

Now it is your turn to answer a couple of questions in regard to verse 27:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (v.27).

Do you think that "every man" was recompensed according to his works in A.D. 70? In other words,do you believe that every unrighteous man received a just punishment and every saint deserving rewards received that reward?

Your inaccurate translation not withstanding, the text does not say ‘he shall reward every man according to his works’. The text says ‘αποδωσει εκαστω κατα την πραξιν αυτου’ = ‘he will reward each according to his conduct’, which is a quote of the Greek version of Psalm 62:13.

The original Hebrew of Psalm 62:13 is כִּי-אַתָּה תְשַׁלֵּם לְאִישׁ כְּמַעֲשֵׂהוּ, wherein the significant word for the purpose of our discussion is לְאִישׁ = ‘a man’ — NOT ‘every man’.

Originally posted by Theonomy

Mickey, the "coming" referred to here is not the transfiguration, but rather the first coming of Christ, namely the incarnation. The transfiguration is the point during the first coming at which Peter witnessed His majesty, but it is not the "coming."

No,look at the verse:

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount" (2Pet.1:16-18).

Peter is saying that the "coming" was not a cunningly devised fable but instead that they witnessed it.

Originally posted by Mickey

No,look at the verse:

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount" (2Pet.1:16-18).

Peter is saying that the "coming" was not a cunningly devised fable but instead that they witnessed it.

There is no evidence whatever ,,,there is nothing in this passage that says the Apostles witnessed His 'coming'


Mickey where is you hair splitter? Oh thats right its used as selectively as your pretend literalsim.

Originally posted by John Reece

Your inaccurate translation not withstanding, the text does not say ‘he shall reward every man according to his works’. The text says ‘αποδωσει εκαστω κατα την πραξιν αυτου’ = ‘he will reward each according to his conduct’, which is a quote of the Greek version of Psalm 62:13.

OK,He will reward "each" according to his conduct.There is nothing at all in this verse that even hints that the meaning is limited to "each Jew".

Here is a parallel verse that also speaks of Him coming with His angels:

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Thess.1:7,8).

There is nothing here that limits the judgment to only Jews.In fact,the epistle in which these words were written was addressed to churches containing Gentiles.

Here is another verse which demonstrates that the judgment when He comes is not limited to only Jews:

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:34-35).

And we can see here that the people from the "nations" will be in fear for that judgment that is coming on the whole earth:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth" (Lk.21:25-26).

The Greek word translated "earth" in verse 26 is "oikoumene",and that word means "the inhabited earth" ("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

The Scriptual evidence is overwhelming that this judgment or harvest is in regard to a world wide judgment.Therefore,the words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 16:27-28 cannot possibly be in regard to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70.

For the sake of argument,please tell me what "reward" the Jewish saints received when Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D.70.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

OK,He will reward "each" according to his conduct.There is nothing at all in this verse that even hints that the meaning is limited to "each Jew".

Here is a parallel verse that also speaks of Him coming with His angels:

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Thess.1:7,8).

There is nothing here that limits the judgment to only Jews.In fact,the epistle in which these words were written was addressed to churches containing Gentiles.

Here is another verse which demonstrates that the judgment when He comes is not limited to only Jews:

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:34-35).

And we can see here that the people from the "nations" will be in fear for that judgment that is coming on the whole earth:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth" (Lk.21:25-26).

The Greek word translated "earth" in verse 26 is "oikoumene",and that word means "the inhabited earth" ("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

The Scriptual evidence is overwhelming that this judgment or harvest is in regard to a world wide judgment.Therefore,the words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 16:27-28 cannot possibly be in regard to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70.

For the sake of argument,please tell me what "reward" the Jewish saints received when Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D.70.

In Christ,
Mickey

Hmmmmm what would make a proper reward for the regicide????


To bad Jesus never said anything about what would happen to people like that...