Here is a translation that differs from traditional renderings; however, it is utterly faithful to the sense of the Greek text:

Mark 13:28-31 (Revised English Bible) — bold and brackets added

²⁸ Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its tender shoots appear and are breaking into leaf, you know that summer is near. ²⁹ In the same way, when you see all this happening, you may know that the end is near, at the very door. ³⁰ Truly, I tell you, the present generation [η γενεα αυτη] will live to see it all. ³¹ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

From BDAG:

γενεα

• 2. the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and frequently defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries [...]; Jesus looks upon the whole contemporary generation of Israel as a uniform mass confronting him η γενεα αυτη (cp. Gen 7:1; Ps 11:8) Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34; Mk 13:30; Lk 7:31; 11:29-32, 50f; 17:25; 21:32

From The Gospel of Mark (NIGTC: Eerdmans, 2002), by R. T. France (translations in brackets added by JR):

28-29 The disciples’ question about a σημειον [‘sign’] has still not been forgotten. The fig tree provides a παραβολη [‘lesson’]], this word being used now in a sense closer to the common conception of an illustrative example. Verses 28-29 are in effect an extended simile: just as you learn the approach of summer by observing the behavior of the fig tree, so you may learn of the coming of ‘it’ by seeing ταυτα γινομενα [‘these things happening’]. In each case the appearance of the one is an infallible σημειον [‘sign’] of the arrival of the other. In Palestine the fig tree comes into leaf in March/April. The early harvest (the ‘first-ripe’ figs) can be expected in May/June. While το θερος [‘summer’] can mean simply the season of summer, summer is the time of fruit and other crops, and θερος [‘summer’] may have a particular connotation of harvest-time (ο θερισμος). The leaves give sure promise that fruit will follow (and if that promise is not fulfilled, woe betide the tree, 11:12-14). The choice of the fig tree for this simile is probably due merely to the fact that, as one of the few deciduous trees in Palestine, it is an obvious example. But we should not forget that in chapter 11 we have seen the fig tree used as a symbol of the temple and its failure. Here the imagery is of normal growth and fruiting, not of barrenness, but in this context of the destruction of the temple the reader may well recollect that other fig tree which failed and which symbolized not the time of the temple’s fall but the completeness of its destruction.

In the second part of the simile the counterpart of the budding leaves is ταυτα γινομενα [‘these things happening’], that of the summer is the fact that εγγυς εστιν επι θυραις [‘it is at the doors’], (επι θυραις described by Turner, 27, as ‘a fixed idiom’, is a graphic synonym for εγγυς [‘near’], like our ‘on the threshold’; cf. the juxtaposition of ηγγικεν [‘he/she/it is near’] and προ των θυρων [‘at the doors’]. Neither expression is as specific as we might wish. The latter is made even less clear by the quite unjustified tendency of some to translate it as ‘he is near’ (RV, RSV, NRSV, JB, NJB). εγγυς [‘near’] is an adverb, not a masculine adjective, so that the phrase means ‘he/she/it is near’, leaving the identification of ‘he/she/it’ to be determined by the context. And here the context leaves little room for doubt. The disciples had asked when the temple would be destroyed and how they would know the time. Jesus’ reply, with the focus shifting emphatically back to the disciples again (και υμεις . . . γινωσκετε [‘also you . . . you know’), now homes in directly on the latter part of their question: this is how you will know that it (the destruction of the temple, the subject of your question and the whole discourse so far) is near; this is the σημειον [‘sign’] you asked for. If, as the context demands, εγγυς εστιν [‘it is near’] refers to the destruction of the temple, what are the ταυτα [‘these things’] which will point to its coming as clearly as the fig leaves point to summer? Again the context must decide and the context gives a suitable antecedent. The sign that it was time to escape was the βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως [‘abomination of desolation’], and the events which are described in vv. 14-22 are a description of the period of distress which will lead up to the fall of the city; the repetition of οταν ιδητε [‘when you see’] here from v. 14 also points to that as the antecedent. ταυτα [‘these things’] must therefore refer to the matters set forth in vv. 14-22, after which the destruction of the temple will follow quickly and inevitably; there will be little time to get away. It is therefore quite inappropriate to the flow of the discourse to understand v. 29 as referring to anything subsequent to the destruction of the temple. That would make it useless as a sign in response to the disciples’ question, as well as introducing a quite unnecessary tension with the clear temporal limit set in v. 30. Verse 29 thus sums up all that Jesus has just spelled out in vv. 14-27, the preliminaries in vv. 14-22 (ταυτα γενομενα [‘these things happening’) and the climax itself in vv. 24-27 (εγγυς εστιν επι θυραις [‘it is near at the doors’]).

I will post something on verse 30 if and after there are responses to the above.

Looks like another wipe-out JR.

Originally posted by Hitch

Looks like another wipe-out JR.

Thanks, Hitch.

Here is the first part of France’s comment on verse 30:

30 If it were not for the embarrassment which it causes to those who think Jesus is here talking about the parousia (and so got it wrong), this verse would have posed no great problems. Its language is clear and definite, not now in symbols but in a straightforward statement of a time limit. It is, moreover, emphatic and authoritative; it is not to be sidelined. The time limit is the passing away of this generation (cf. 9:1, ου μη γευσωται θανατου εως [‘will not taste death until’] . . .) While Mark’s other uses of γενεα [‘generation’] are not temporally marked, simply referring to Jesus’ contemporaries as a γενεα απιστος [‘disbelieving generation’]] etc. (8:12, 38; 9:19), here the whole construction of the sentence, as well as the disciples’ question ‘When?’ in v. 4, demands the regular temporal sense: people alive as Jesus is speaking will still be there to see the fulfillment of his words.

Attempts to evade this obvious sense (on the part of those who care about Jesus’ reliability – not all commentators do) have followed one (or both) of two lines, the reinterpretation of η γενεα αυτη [‘this generation’] to mean something other than people then living, or the identification of ταυτα παντα [‘all these things’] as something other than the events Jesus has been describing. While this commentary is in the happy position of having no embarrassment to avoid because it takes Jesus’ words at their face value as a prediction of the destruction of the temple within that generation, a few comments on each of these tactics may be appropriate.

— The Gospel of Mark (NIGTC: Eerdmans, 2002), by R. T. France (translations in brackets added by JR)

Originally posted by John Reece

Here is a translation that differs from traditional renderings; however, it is utterly faithful to the sense of the Greek text:

Mark 13:28-31 (Revised English Bible) — bold and brackets added

²⁸ Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its tender shoots appear and are breaking into leaf, you know that summer is near. ²⁹ In the same way, when you see all this happening, you may know that the end is near, at the very door. ³⁰ Truly, I tell you, the present generation [η γενεα αυτη] will live to see it all. ³¹ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

John,the translation you provide is faulty.The Greek word translated "present" is not in the text.Instead,the same Greek words are used in the following parallel passage:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" (Lk.21:32).

The reference is to the generation who sees the signs.




And the verses which follow make it plain that no generation has yet to see the signs,as the verses which follow speak of a world wide judgment or harvest:



"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).



In Christ,Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

John,the translation you provide is faulty.

Not really.

The translation accurately represents the true sense of the text, which has been discussed thoroughly enough with you that I will not respond to you further on the subject unless you come up with something we have not already been through repeatedly.

Originally posted by John Reece

Not really.

The translation accurately represents the true sense of the text, which has been discussed thoroughly enough with you that I will not respond to you further on the subject unless you come up with something we have not already been through repeatedly.

I have already started a thread entitled "This Generation" and you provided nothing at all that proved that my interpretation of those words are in error.

And if I remember correctly you argued that when the word "you" is used in the Olivet Discouse it can only be in reference to the generation then living.If you are correct then how do you explain the following words?:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).

When did a judgment or harvest come upon the whole earth?

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

And if I remember correctly you argued that when the word "you" is used in the Olivet Discouse it can only be in reference to the generation then living.

Yes, when Jesus spoke to people, addressing them by means of the plural pronoun ‘you’, of course he was speaking to them rather than to a generation of not-yet-born people thousands of years in the future.

Originally posted by John Reece

Yes, when Jesus spoke to people, addressing them by means of the plural pronoun ‘you’, of course he was speaking to them rather than to a generation of not-yet-born people thousands of years in the future.

Then what historical evidence can you give that the following verses were fulfilled in the first century?:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).

Originally posted by Mickey

Then what historical evidence can you give that the following verses were fulfilled in the first century?:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).

I have already responded that that on another thread, for which I have not the energy to go looking tonight.

Originally posted by John Reece

I have already responded that that on another thread, for which I have not the energy to go looking tonight.

I cannot remember any post that you made where you responded to this and after looking through several threads I still cannot see any response from you.

Originally posted by Mickey

I cannot remember any post that you made where you responded to this and after looking through several threads I still cannot see any response from you.

My memory is impaired, so I will not dispute that, nor expend any energy looking for a prior response.

I’ll just say that I see two possible options:

• 1. If you are right in saying that Luke 21:32-35 has not yet been fulfilled, then Ted is right in saying the pericope is a parenthesis within a context that in all other respects is related to the destruction of the Temple circa AD 70.

• 2. If France is right in saying that the parallel passage in Matthew 13:28-31 is to be taken as having been fulfilled circa AD 70, then the sense of πασης της γης (pasēs tēs gēs = ‘all the earth’) in Luke 21:35 should be understood from a first-century perspective and in a first-century sense like that of παντι τω κοσμω (panti tō kosmō = ‘all the world’) in Colossians 1:6.

Here is the context of the latter text:

Colossians 1:3-8 (ESV) — bold and brackets added

Thanksgiving and Prayer

³ We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, ⁴ since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, ⁵ because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, ⁶ which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world [παντι τω κοσμω (panti to kosmō)] it is bearing fruit and growing — as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, ⁷ just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf ⁸ and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

Originally posted by John Reece

I’ll just say that I see two possible options:
1. If you are right in saying that Luke 21:32-35 has not yet been fulfilled, then Ted is right in saying the pericope is a parenthesis within a context that in all other respects is related to the destruction of the Temple circa AD 70.

If I am right then you are wrong when you made the following assertion:

Originally posted by John Reece

In each case in which Jesus used the 2nd person plural pronoun, the pronoun specifies the people to whom he was speaking, rather than a generation of people thousands of years in the future.

That is because when the Lord Jesus speaks of a coming judgment that has not yet been fulfilled He uses the 2nd person plural pronoun:

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lk.21:34-36).

2. If France is right in saying that the parallel passage in Matthew 13:28-31 is to be taken as having been fulfilled circa AD 70, then the sense of πασης της γης (pasēs tēs gēs = ‘all the earth’) in Luke 21:35 should be understood from a first-century perspective and in a first-century sense like that of παντι τω κοσμω (panti tō kosmō = ‘all the world’) in Colossians 1:6.

Ok,let us quote the verses and replace the words "the whole earth" with the words "the Roman Empire":

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the Roman Empire. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lk.21:34-36).

When did a judgment come upon "all them that dwell on the face of the Roman Empire"?

If that happened in the first century then there would be historical evidence of such an event.I am not aware of any such evidence.What evidence can you give that this happened in the first century?

In Luke 11 Jesus mentioned "this generation" or "an evil generation" six times. He continued His discourse in chapter 12 and Peter asked Him who He was speaking to. We don't have to wonder who He was speaking to because He answers. I don't think the Olivet discourse is any different. I think it is wrong to separate one or two verses from the rest of the speech. We can see how the early Christians understood it.

Allegory had been around long before Jesus taught.

Mark concludes the discourse in the about the same way.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Originally posted by eschaton

In Luke 11 Jesus mentioned "this generation" or "an evil generation" six times. He continued His discourse in chapter 12 and Peter asked Him who He was speaking to. We don't have to wonder who He was speaking to because He answers. I don't think the Olivet discourse is any different. I think it is wrong to separate one or two verses from the rest of the speech. We can see how the early Christians understood it.

Allegory had been around long before Jesus taught.

The corrct way to interpret the meaning of the words "this generation" is by examining the context.It matters little how a phrase is used at other places if the context cannot support the meaning at other places.For example,when we study the "context" of the words "this generation" in the following verses it becomes evident that the meaning is not the generation then living:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).

Since there was no judgment that fell on all them who lived on the face of the whole earth during the time of the first century generation then the words "this generation" must have a different meaning.For that meaning you can go to a thread that I started entitled "This Generation".

Originally posted by eschaton

Mark concludes the discourse in the about the same way.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Yes,and the Lord Jesus said the following earlier:

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt.23:39).

The generation then living never said those words after the Lord Jesus made this statement.Therefore the word "ye" in this verse must refer to a future generation.