Something to supplement this thread:

Matthew 26:57-68 (ESV) — emphasis added by John Reece

Jesus Before Caiaphas

⁵⁷ Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. ⁵⁸ And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. ⁵⁹ Now the chief priests and the whole Council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, ⁶⁰ but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward ⁶¹ and said, "This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.'" ⁶² And the high priest stood up and said, "Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?" ⁶³ But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." ⁶⁴ Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." ⁶⁵ Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. ⁶⁶ What is your judgment?" They answered, "He deserves death." ⁶⁷ Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"

From Matthew (TNTC), by R. T. France:

Coming on the clouds of heaven (together with the phrase ‘the Son of man’) is a clear allusion to Daniel 7:13, already similarly alluded to in 24:30. . . . We have seen that its natural application in terms of its Old Testament source is to the vindication and enthronement of the Son of man in heaven, not to a descent to earth. It is therefore in this verse a parallel expression to ‘seated at the right hand of Power’; the two phrases refer to the same exhalted state, not to two successive situations or events. In this verse the appropriateness of this interpretation is underlined by the fact that this is to be true ‘from now on’ (hereafter is a quite misleading rendering of the more specific phrase ap’ arti, which, as in 23:39 and 26:29, denotes a new period beginning from now). Indeed it is something which Jesus’ inquisitors themselves will see (an echo of Zc. 12:10, and in 24:30?), for it will quickly become apparent in the events of even the next few weeks (not to mention the subsequent growth of the church) that the ‘blasphemer’ they thought they had disposed of is in fact now in the position of supreme authority.

Originally posted by John Reece

Something to supplement this thread:

Matthew 26:57-68 (ESV) — emphasis added by John Reece

Jesus Before Caiaphas

⁵⁷ Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. ⁵⁸ And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. ⁵⁹ Now the chief priests and the whole Council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, ⁶⁰ but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward ⁶¹ and said, "This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.'" ⁶² And the high priest stood up and said, "Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?" ⁶³ But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." ⁶⁴ Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." ⁶⁵ Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. ⁶⁶ What is your judgment?" They answered, "He deserves death." ⁶⁷ Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"

From Matthew (TNTC), by R. T. France:

Coming on the clouds of heaven (together with the phrase ‘the Son of man’) is a clear allusion to Daniel 7:13, already similarly alluded to in 24:30. . . . We have seen that its natural application in terms of its Old Testament source is to the vindication and enthronement of the Son of man in heaven, not to a descent to earth. It is therefore in this verse a parallel expression to ‘seated at the right hand of Power’; the two phrases refer to the same exhalted state, not to two successive situations or events. In this verse the appropriateness of this interpretation is underlined by the fact that this is to be true ‘from now on’ (hereafter is a quite misleading rendering of the more specific phrase ap’ arti, which, as in 23:39 and 26:29, denotes a new period beginning from now). Indeed it is something which Jesus’ inquisitors themselves will see (an echo of Zc. 12:10, and in 24:30?), for it will quickly become apparent in the events of even the next few weeks (not to mention the subsequent growth of the church) that the ‘blasphemer’ they thought they had disposed of is in fact now in the position of supreme authority.

Hi John,

Hope all is well.

To understand the words you highlight isn't it incumbent upon us to investigate the OT meaning of the term "son of man" in all its variations (sons of men, sons of man, etc.)?.. and doesn’t’ that investigation have to begin with Numbers 23:19?

All the best.

Originally posted by Howie

Hi John,

Hope all is well.

To understand the words you highlight isn't it incumbent upon us to investigate the OT meaning of the term "son of man" in all its variations (sons of men, sons of man, etc.)?.. and doesn’t’ that investigation have to begin with Numbers 23:19?

All the best.

Start another thread is you wish to pursue that tack.

The focus in this thread is on Jesus’ quotes and/or allusions to Daniel 7:13.

From The Gospel of Mark (NIGTC, page 612), by R. T. France (a comment on Mark 14:62 = a parallel passage to Matthew 26:64 — translation in brackets added by JR):

The combination of Ps. 110:1 and Dn. 7:13 produces a mixture of metaphors which some have found troubling, in that they cannot envisage anyone both ‘sitting’ and ‘coming’, at least in that order. (The problem is compounded if the ‘coming’ is interpreted as a coming to earth, but since that is not what either Daniel or Mark says we need not pursue that red herring.) It has therefore sometimes been assumed that the simple και [‘and’] with which Mark links the two metaphors conceals a time break: first sitting and then subsequently coming. But this again is not what Mark says, and the whole problem arises from a failure to interpret familiar OT metaphors as such, metaphors. Both passages in fact express in their distinctive ways the same concept of a sovereign authority. This is obvious in the case of the psalm, ‘sitting at the right hand of [God]’, but if Dn. 7:13 is read in context it conveys the same message, in that the one who comes before God in the clouds of heaven is immediately given ‘dominion and glory and kingship’ which are both universal and unending . . . . Dn. 7:13-14 is, in other words, no less that Psalm 110:1 an enthronement oracle, and it is that universal and unending dominion which Jesus here declares that he himself will now receive — and they will see it.

Hi John,

Sorry for the mistake. I did not intend to take the thread off topic.

All the best.

Originally posted by Howie

Hi John,

Sorry for the mistake. I did not intend to take the thread off topic.

All the best.

No problem, Howie.

Here is the concluding portion of the comment on Matthew 26:64 in Matthew (The Anchor Bible: Doubleday, 1981), by W. F. Albright and C. S. Mann:

from now on . . . The Greek is quite emphatic. Those listening to Jesus were asked to see in the person surrounded by enemies The-Man-in-glory, the cloud rider of Dan 7:13 ff. (cf. also Ps 110:1). In a very real sense this is the climax of all that Matthew’s tradition has so carefully preserved for us in the sayings about The Man. Though Jesus does not say “You will see me,” the identification is plain enough to his hearers.

See also the connection between Daniel 7:13 and Jesus’ declaration regarding himself in Matthew 28:18 here.

Originally posted by John Reece

From Matthew (TNTC), by R. T. France:

...In this verse the appropriateness of this interpretation is underlined by the fact that this is to be true ‘from now on’ (hereafter is a quite misleading rendering of the more specific phrase ap’ arti, which, as in 23:39 and 26:29, denotes a new period beginning from now). Indeed it is something which Jesus’ inquisitors themselves will see (an echo of Zc. 12:10, and in 24:30?), for it will quickly become apparent in the events of even the next few weeks (not to mention the subsequent growth of the church) that the ‘blasphemer’ they thought they had disposed of is in fact now in the position of supreme authority.

When the Greek word "arti" is followed by "apo" then the reference can be in regard to something in the distant future,as witnessed by the following verse:

"And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter (arti apo) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" (Jn.1:51).

This cannot possibly mean that the Lord Jesus was saying that "from now" His disciples would see heaven open and the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

When the Greek word "arti" is followed by "apo" then the reference can be in regard to something in the distant future [snip]

I know of no text in which arti is followed by apo.

Please post a Greek text in which such a construction is found.

If such a construction is in the Greek text behind the translation you are using, that would be proof that the Nestle-Aland editors were right to not include it in the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (Nestle-Aland lists a textual variant which they attribute to a copyist’s transferring of the phrase ‘απ αρτι’ from Matthew 26:64).

To get an idea of why arti is never followed by apo, just try translating the phrase literally: arti = ‘now’ and apo = from; put them together and you get ‘now from’. Is that how your version of John 1:51 reads?

Originally posted by John Reece

I know of no text in which arti is followed by apo.

Please post a Greek text in which such a construction is found.

Go to the following site and scroll down until you get to the Greek text:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...0-2945.html#64

If such a construction is in the Greek text behind the translation you are using, that would be proof that the Nestle-Aland editors were right to not include it in the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (Nestle-Aland lists a textual variant which they attribute to a copyist’s transferring of the phrase ‘απ αρτι’ from Matthew 26:64).

To get an idea of why arti is never followed by apo, just try translating the phrase literally: arti = ‘now’ and apo = from; put them together and you get ‘now from’. Is that how your version of John 1:51 reads?

So we are to believe that every time that the words "arti apo" are used together it was a mistake of the copyist?And these same copyist did not know that those words could not be put together because when put together they make no sense?

Perhaps you have a better knowledge of Greek than did the copyist.By the way,what are your credentials in regard to the Greek language?

Is that how your version of John 1:51 reads?

Here it is again,and I cannot imagine why you had to ask since I quoted the very words:

"And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter (arti apo) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" (Jn.1:51).

Do you think that the disciples were seeing that at the time (now) when the Lord Jesus spoke those words?

In Christ,
Mickey

The text to which you linked does not have arti apo, it has απ αρτι (ap arti) — look at the actual Greek text above the misplaced Strong’s reference.

Mickey is a master of Strong's eisegesis.

Originally posted by Mickey

Perhaps you have a better knowledge of Greek than did the copyist.

See here:

Originally posted by Mickey

By the way,what are your credentials in regard to the Greek language?

Five years of full-time graduate studies (majoring in Hebrew and Greek exegesis) at Duke University (1956-1957; 1966-1967), The Presbyterian School of Christian Education (1967-1968), and Union Theological Seminary in Virginia (1968-1970).

What are Jerry's?

1. Own's a copy of Strong's and downloaded e-sword

Originally posted by John Reece

The text to which you linked does not have arti apo, it has απ αρτι (ap arti) — look at the actual Greek text above the misplaced Strong’s reference.

Are you right and Strongs is wrong?If you are the one who is right then we must believe that the following things of which the Lord Jesus spoke was already being seen by His disciples:

"And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter (arti ap) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" (Jn.1:51).

Did that happen at the time when the Lord Jesus spoke those words?:

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by John Reece

The text to which you linked does not have arti apo, it has απ αρτι (ap arti) — look at the actual Greek text above the misplaced Strong’s reference.

OK,what does "ap" mean?

Originally posted by Mickey

OK,what does "ap" mean?

ap = apo with the omicron (o) elided whenever it precedes a word which begins with a vowel (in this case, arti).

The preposition apo means ‘from’.

Originally posted by John Reece

ap = apo with the omicron (o) elided whenever it precedes a word which begins with a vowel (in this case, arti).

The preposition apo means ‘from’.

If you are correct then we can say that the following verse has this meaning:

"And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, from now (ap arti ) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" (Jn.1:51).

Are we supposed to believe that His disciples saw that happening when the Lord Jesus spoke those words?

I cannot find even one translation that says "from now".All the translations that I am aware of leave the seeing of these things in the future.

Perhaps you can go to one of your commentaries and quote someone explaining in what way His disciples saw the "angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" at the time the Lord spoke those words.