Mark 14:62 (ESV) bold in brackets added

Jesus Before the Council

⁵³ And they led Jesus to the high priest. And all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes came together. ⁵⁴ And Peter had followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest. And he was sitting with the guards and warming himself at the fire. ⁵⁵ Now the chief priests and the whole Council were seeking testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they found none. ⁵⁶ For many bore false witness against him, but their testimony did not agree. ⁵⁷ And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, ⁵⁸ "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'" ⁵⁹ Yet even about this their testimony did not agree. ⁶⁰ And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, "Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?" ⁶¹ But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" ⁶² And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." ⁶³ And the high priest tore his garments and said, "What further witnesses do we need? ⁶⁴ You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?" And they all condemned him as deserving death. ⁶⁵ And some began to spit on him and to cover his face and to strike him, saying to him, "Prophesy!" And the guards received him with blows.

From Jesus and the Old Testament (pages 140-142), by R. T. France (English translations in parentheses added by JR):

Again the allusion to Daniel 7:13 is not in question. What has been very much in debate in recent years is the sort of fulfillment for which Jesus looks. Until recently it was almost universally assumed that this was a prediction of the Parousia, but this interpretation is now frequently questioned. It is suggested instead that in Mark 14:62 Jesus is taking Daniel 7:13 in just the sense in which it was originally intended, that is, as describing his imminent vindication and exaltation to supreme authority. His judges may accuse and condemn him, but they will soon see that the one they condemn has become their lord and king. The sitting at God’s right hand and the coming with clouds are not, then, two events separated by an indefinite period of time, but two figures for the single idea of the vindication and exaltation of the Son of man. His ‘coming’ is not a coming to earth, but, as in Daniel 7:13, a coming to God to receive power and glory, and is, of course, not to be interpreted literally: a literal ‘sitting’ and a literal ‘coming’ could hardly be envisaged together!

The exegesis is supported not only by the fact that it is reasonable to assume that Jesus used Daniel 7:13 in its intended sense unless there is evidence to the contrary, but also the word οψεσθε (‘you will see’), which implies that those sitting in judgment over Jesus will in fact witness the ‘coming’, i.e. that it will occur within their lifetime. This is confirmed by the Matthean απ’ αρτι (Lk. 22:69 απο του νυν, ‘from now on’). If, as Glasson argues, this phrase was originally in Mark, it makes explicit what is already implied in οψεσθε (‘you will see’), that Jesus is not referring to an event in the indefinite future, but to a situation which is to obtain immediately. The primary note, then, of this allusion to Daniel 7:13 is, as in the original meaning of that chapter, one of vindication, and the conferment of power and authority on the Son of man. Jesus, the defendant and victim, will be exhalted to be lord and king. But while this continuing state is the primary point of the application, οψεσθε (‘you will see’) suggests that some particular manifestation of this lordship within history is in view, and that it will be within the lifetime of his hearers. When we compare this with the similar implication that we have seen in Mark 8:38 and Matthew 10:23, there seems to be good reason for taking all three passages as parallel to Mark 13:26, where the context is explicitly that of the destruction of Jerusalem, and for suggesting that Jesus saw this act of judgment on the nation which judged and rejected him as the visible manifestation of that vindication and lordship which was soon to be conferred on him. In Mark 14:62, where Jesus, the apparently helpless defendant, is addressing the leaders of the nation, this application is singularly appropriate.

It is ridiculous to think Daniel 7:13 (and Christ's quotation of it in Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64; Revelation 1:7) refers to the ascension rather than the Second Advent.

-Tim

Daniel 7:13-14 (ESV) — bold and brackets added

The Son of Man Is Given Dominion

¹³ I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
¹⁴ And to him was given
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]
is an everlasting
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)],
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The ‘coming’ in the text is ‘to the Ancient of Days’.

It was as a consequence of the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 that Jesus was able to say what he said of himself in verse 18 of this pericope:

Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)—bold and brackets added

The Great Commission

¹⁶ Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. ¹⁷ And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. ¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)] in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Originally posted by John Reece

From Jesus and the Old Testament (pages 140-142), by R. T. France (English translations in parentheses added by JR):
Again the allusion to Daniel 7:13 is not in question. What has been very much in debate in recent years is the sort of fulfillment for which Jesus looks.

John,in order to see the "fulfillment" of which the Lord Jesus looks all we have to do is continue to read what happens later in the same chapter of Daniel:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (Dan.7:21-22).

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

John,in order to see the "fulfillment" of which the Lord Jesus looks all we have to do is continue to read what happens later in the same chapter of Daniel:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (Dan.7:21-22).

So?

You think that nullifies this?

Originally posted by John Reece

So?

You think that nullifies this?

Here is the verse again:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (Dan.7:21-22).

The location that is being described here is of events on the earth--"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them".

So the vision is in regard to things happening on the earth.And when Daniel speaks of the ancient of Days coming,then the reference must be in regard to a coming to the earth.Any other interpretation makes no sense.

In Christ,
Mickey

John, Jerry just wants to hold onto his fables. There comes a time to not respond to a fool according to his folly, but for the record I am greatly edified by your posts.

Originally posted by Tickle Me Xena

John, Jerry just wants to hold onto his fables. There comes a time to not respond to a fool according to his folly, but for the record I am greatly edified by your posts.

I do find it rather tiresome, but I soldier on just for the benefit of other readers who may find something of value in my responses.

Originally posted by John Reece

Daniel 7:13-14 (ESV) — bold and brackets added

The Son of Man Is Given Dominion



¹³ I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
¹⁴ And to him was given
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]
is an everlasting
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)],
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The ‘coming’ in the text is ‘to the Ancient of Days’.

It was as a consequence of the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 that Jesus was able to say what he said of himself in verse 18 of this pericope:

Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)—bold and brackets added

The Great Commission



¹⁶ Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. ¹⁷ And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. ¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)] in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

I fail to see how that has anything to do with the fact it is ridiculous to think Daniel 7:13 (and Christ's quotation of it in Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64; Revelation 1:7) refers to the ascension rather than the Second Advent. Daniel 7:13 obviously does not refer to the ascension. Your Matthew 28:18-20 "proof text" occurs prior to the ascension, so it doesn't help your strange new interpretation of Daniel 7:13.


-Tim

Originally posted by Tickle Me Xena

John, Jerry just wants to hold onto his fables. There comes a time to not respond to a fool according to his folly, but for the record I am greatly edified by your posts.

My "fable" is the idea that if one's viewpoint is from the earth then when the context speaks of a "coming" that means coming to earth.

Others can throw away their common sense and imagine that a "coming" means a "going",as Dee Dee teaches that when His disciples asked the Lord Jesus about His "coming" the Lord answered by telling them of His "going" (i.e.,at His ascension).

And then she has the temerity to call me a fool because I cannot throw my reason to the wind as she is able to do.

Originally posted by Mickey

My "fable" is the idea that if one's viewpoint is from the earth then when the context speaks of a "coming" that means coming to earth.

Despite the fact that the text of Daniel 7:13-14 says something quite the contrary.

John these verse specific threads are fantastic. I am going to index them on my site when I get a chance.

Originally posted by Tickle Me Xena

John these verse specific threads are fantastic. I am going to index them on my site when I get a chance.

Originally posted by John Reece

Despite the fact that the text of Daniel 7:13-14 says something quite the contrary.

I was addressing Dee Dee and not you.

She says that Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven.And that was "after" the occasion of Matthew 28:18-20.

Perhaps you can refresh my memory as to exactly when you think Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled.

Originally posted by Mickey

I was addressing Dee Dee and not you.

She says that Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven.And that was "after" the occasion of Matthew 28:18-20.

Acts 1:1-3 (ESV) — emphasis added

¹ In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, ² until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. ³ To them he presented himself alive after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

Do you really think Jesus wandered around on earth, in invisible form, only very rarely making an appearance to people, throughout the entire 40 day period noted in Acts 1:3, without ever coming before ‘the Ancient of Days’ (Daniel 7:13) during that whole period of time?

Christians traditionally refer to the event recorded in Acts 1:9 as ‘the Ascension’, because that’s the only recorded occasion during which he was seen departing earth in such a way.

However, it would be an invalid argument from silence to say that Jesus was earth-bound and away from ‘the Ancient of Days’ (but almost always invisible to people) throughout the entire forty day period documented in Acts 1:3.

Originally posted by Mickey

Perhaps you can refresh my memory as to exactly when you think Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled.

Between the time Jesus made his declaration to the high priest in Matthew 26:64 (quoting and/or alluding to Daniel 7:13) and the time he commissioned his disciples in Matthew 28:18, as is clear in this post:

Originally posted by John Reece

Daniel 7:13-14 (ESV) — bold and brackets added

The Son of Man Is Given Dominion

¹³ I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
¹⁴ And to him was given
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]
is an everlasting
dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)],
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The ‘coming’ in the text is ‘to the Ancient of Days’.

It was as a consequence of the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 that Jesus was able to say what he said of himself in verse 18 of this pericope:

Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)—bold and brackets added

The Great Commission

¹⁶ Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. ¹⁷ And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. ¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)] in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Come on, Jerry, take time out from repetitiously spamming us with dispensational assertions and focus on those texts carefully.

Note how it says “to him was given dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]” in Daniel 7:14, and how Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 “All authority [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)] in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Originally posted by John Reece

Do you really think Jesus wandered around on earth, in invisible form, only very rarely making an appearance to people, throughout the entire 40 day period noted in Acts 1:3, without ever coming before ‘the Ancient of Days’ (Daniel 7:13) during that whole period of time?

What evidence can you give that supports your idea?All you have given us is your assumption.

Christians traditionally refer to the event recorded in Acts 1:9 as ‘the Ascension’, because that’s the only recorded occasion during which he was seen departing earth in such a way.

That does not help your case in any way.Your whole argument here is based on nothing but you saying that it must have happened.The Scriptures say that He was seen by His Apostles forty days.

However, it would be an invalid argument from silence to say that Jesus was earth-bound and away from ‘the Ancient of Days’ (but almost always invisible to people) throughout the entire forty day period documented in Acts 1:3.

The Scriptures say that He was seen by His Apostles forty days.

Between the time Jesus made his declaration to the high priest in Matthew 26:64 (quoting and/or alluding to Daniel 7:13) and the time he commissioned his disciples in Matthew 28:18, as is clear in this post...Come on, Jerry, take time out from repetitiously spamming us with dispensational assertions and focus on those texts carefully.

You are the one who seems careless because the scene is set on the earth:

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (Dan.7:21-22).

And you may call the following verses "dispensational assertions" but nonetheless they show that the kingdom will not be set up until after the coming of the Son of Man:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory....So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).

Note how it says “to him was given dominion [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)]” in Daniel 7:14, and how Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 “All authority [Greek: εξουσια (exousia)] in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

That is right.This "exousia" (authority;offical right or power) had been given to the Lord Jesus by Matthew 28:18.But that does not mean that He was yet on His throne nor does it mean that the kingdom had been set up at that point in time.

Paul's epistles were written,according to you,during the kingdom age.If you are correct then why would Paul refer to the age in which he was living as "this present evil age"?:

"who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father" (Gal.1:4).

Why would Paul refer to Satan as the "god of this age" if he was living in the kingdom age?:

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2Cor.4:4).

There have been plenty of occasions in the past when certain men were given the authority of a king but at the same time they were not reigning because a usurper was on the throne.