Matthew 24 - This Generation - TheologyWeb Campus
TheologyWeb Campus TheologyWeb Campus


Hello and welcome to TheologyWeb – theology debate with a serious dose of fun! It has been our goal to create one of the best and most innovative discussion sites on the Net. Please visit our forums where we debate and discuss everything from religion, politics, lifestyle, pop culture, to who is the coolest member of the moderating team. Register now and join in the fun, its free, easy, and makes Dee Dee Warren happy.




*This site is best viewed in Mozilla Firefox with a minimum display resolution of 1024x768.

Reply

Matthew 24 - This Generation
View First Unread
rhutchin is offline
rhutchin Inquisitive
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 3,630
Join Date: October 2nd, 2003
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 3931
Pearls: 507
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 08:31 AM
 
 
 
 
 
We have--

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 “So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.



I know of two definitions of the term, "this generation." They are--

1. That it can only refer to those to whom Jesus was speaking at the historical moment in 33 AD when he spoke the words, or

2. That it refers to the "who" in v 33 that "see all these things" (things being that described earlier) and could refer to a future generation to come. It would be that generation that would be present when the last of the prophesied "things" would occur. Depending on how one identifies the "things," that generation might have been that generation that witnessd the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or a still future generation (possibly our generation).

Has anyone heard of another explanation for "this generation"?

Which view do people subscribe to and why?

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Ormly is offline
Ormly is caught in the Matrix. Caught in the Matrix
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian (other)  |  Conservative  
Posts: 5,442
Join Date: July 12th, 2004
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 2260
Pearls: 521
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 08:52 AM
 
In reply to this post by rhutchin
 
 
 
12:10 (KJV) ".........................and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, ..................."

When was this prophecy fullfilled?

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Nang is offline
Nang Treasure Hunter
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,093
Join Date: August 4th, 2005
Spam: 79 | Anti-Spam: 1966
Pearls: 612
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 01:32 PM
 
In reply to this post by rhutchin
 
 
 
We have--

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 “So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.



I know of two definitions of the term, "this generation." They are--

1. That it can only refer to those to whom Jesus was speaking at the historical moment in 33 AD when he spoke the words, or

2. That it refers to the "who" in v 33 that "see all these things" (things being that described earlier) and could refer to a future generation to come. It would be that generation that would be present when the last of the prophesied "things" would occur. Depending on how one identifies the "things," that generation might have been that generation that witnessd the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or a still future generation (possibly our generation).

Has anyone heard of another explanation for "this generation"?

Which view do people subscribe to and why?
Yes. . .some teach, and I tend to agree, that "this generation," refers to the regenerate elect of that day, and to all the future regenerate believers who would issue from the "Seed," throughout church history, unto the last day. They are the ones who will be given eyes "to see all these things."

Nang

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
". . When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
RanRan is offline
RanRan Still the Janitor
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,174
Join Date: November 28th, 2005
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 526
Pearls: 495
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 07:04 PM
 
In reply to this post by Nang
 
 
 
Yes. . .some teach, and I tend to agree, that "this generation," refers to the regenerate elect of that day, and to all the future regenerate believers who would issue from the "Seed," throughout church history, unto the last day. They are the ones who will be given eyes "to see all these things."

Nang
That's the most bewildering spin-job I've heard. That generation lived to see all those things happen - just as Christ said they would - it's that simple.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"The whole human race will be found to be under a curse...The Father of all wished His Christ, for the whole human family, to take upon Him the curses of all" Justin Martyr c160
'For He is the most holy and merciful Lord, and He loves the human race.'Irenaeus c180
'You have already been ransomed by Christ - and that at a great price!'Tertullian c211
"We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of All men, especially those who believe." St. Paul c60
"'And in Him is no darkness at all' - that is, no passion, no keeping up of evil respecting anyone. He destroys no one, but grants salvation to all." Clement of Alexandria c195
"God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't." 20th Century 'theology'
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
dizzle is offline
dizzle wet bird
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 46,017
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 21575 | Anti-Spam: 3353
Pearls: 16
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 08:43 PM
 
In reply to this post by RanRan
 
 
 
That's the most bewildering spin-job I've heard. That generation lived to see all those things happen - just as Christ said they would - it's that simple.
You need to get out more. No matter how muddled that was - I have seen worse. Believe me. Much worse.

 
  Amen Award: most amened twebber - Issue reason: making Xavier orange with envy Salutatorian: top thread starter - Issue reason: doesnt know how to keep silent Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: Warrior Princess Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: September 2003 Alumnus Chancellor: is all mighty! - Issue reason: motherhen    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Nochyu mokraya ptitsa nikogda ne letaet.
A wet bird never flies at night. -unknown [old Russian proverb]

Eudyptes: you are....as usual....100% correct
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
GoBahnsen is offline
GoBahnsen tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 8,489
Join Date: April 3rd, 2004
Spam: 134 | Anti-Spam: 6581
Pearls: 575
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 09:14 PM
 
In reply to this post by rhutchin
 
 
 
We have--

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 “So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.



I know of two definitions of the term, "this generation." They are--

1. That it can only refer to those to whom Jesus was speaking at the historical moment in 33 AD when he spoke the words, or

2. That it refers to the "who" in v 33 that "see all these things" (things being that described earlier) and could refer to a future generation to come. It would be that generation that would be present when the last of the prophesied "things" would occur. Depending on how one identifies the "things," that generation might have been that generation that witnessd the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD or a still future generation (possibly our generation).

Has anyone heard of another explanation for "this generation"?

Which view do people subscribe to and why?
What ever the complete answer is, it does seem that a lot of language gets completely lost, if one stops to realize that the Bible does give "time" sensitive warnings.

So much of the warnings become absurd, if they were not for those who were reading the immediate writings of those telling them that the "time is at hand".

Anyway...I guess this thread belongs in eschatology...doesn't it?

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Ultimately I don't care what some theologian or some system taught, it's what God's Word says that matters... and rightly dividing it is the supreme challenge of life." GoBism
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
ApologiaPhoenix is offline
ApologiaPhoenix Wedding Date: 7/24/2010
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Trinitarian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 21,864
Join Date: November 17th, 2003
Spam: 9386 | Anti-Spam: 6930
Pearls: 1889
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 09:22 PM
 
In reply to this post by rhutchin
 
 
 

Moderated By: Apologiaphoenix

This thread is being moved to eschatology.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.




Carry on.

 
  Amen Award: most amened twebber - Issue reason: too clever by half Department Head: is somewhat mighty! - Issue reason: Smallville addict Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: March 2006 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Check the blog of Apologiaphoenix!

The ApologiaPhoenix Seminary fund
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Nang is offline
Nang Treasure Hunter
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,093
Join Date: August 4th, 2005
Spam: 79 | Anti-Spam: 1966
Pearls: 612
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 09:55 PM
 
In reply to this post by dizzle
 
 
 
You need to get out more. No matter how muddled that was - I have seen worse. Believe me. Much worse.
Muddled?

What is a "generation" but an issue of offspring in any given time.

The premise is there are physical offspring and there are spiritual offspring.

The flesh generates flesh and the spirit generates spirit.

If Jesus Christ was speaking to those regenerated (spiritual offspring of God) in His day, who had been given "eyes to see" the spiritual things of God . . .what precludes His words being applied to spiritual offspring generated by God throughout history?

Nang

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
". . When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
RanRan is offline
RanRan Still the Janitor
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,174
Join Date: November 28th, 2005
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 526
Pearls: 495
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 10:39 PM
 
In reply to this post by Nang
Last edited by RanRan : April 2nd 2007 at 10:52 PM .  
 
 
Muddled?

What is a "generation" but an issue of offspring in any given time.
Nang
It's a group of people living at about same time. That's a generation. Always has been. Why the need for spin here, Nang? Is it because God's wrath may have been poured out on a specific generation and your need to continue that wrath against non-calvinists, that is to say, mankind in general?

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"The whole human race will be found to be under a curse...The Father of all wished His Christ, for the whole human family, to take upon Him the curses of all" Justin Martyr c160
'For He is the most holy and merciful Lord, and He loves the human race.'Irenaeus c180
'You have already been ransomed by Christ - and that at a great price!'Tertullian c211
"We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of All men, especially those who believe." St. Paul c60
"'And in Him is no darkness at all' - that is, no passion, no keeping up of evil respecting anyone. He destroys no one, but grants salvation to all." Clement of Alexandria c195
"God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't." 20th Century 'theology'
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Nang is offline
Nang Treasure Hunter
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,093
Join Date: August 4th, 2005
Spam: 79 | Anti-Spam: 1966
Pearls: 612
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 11:01 PM
 
In reply to this post by RanRan
 
 
 
It's a group of people living at about same time.
Yes.

That's a generation. Always has been.
Yes.


There is physical life and there is spiritual life.

Is the terminology "generation" restricted to physical life and living, only?

If so, what is your Scriptural basis for that premise?

I contend that there are physical "generations" of life, as well as spiritual "generations" of lfe.

The former physical generations issued from Adam, and the latter spiritual generations issued by the last "Adam," Jesus Christ.

Nang

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
". . When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
RanRan is offline
RanRan Still the Janitor
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,174
Join Date: November 28th, 2005
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 526
Pearls: 495
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 11:32 PM
 
In reply to this post by Nang
 
 
 
Is the terminology "generation" restricted to physical life and living, only?

If so, what is your Scriptural basis for that premise?
Nang
History. Human history. Since, in the spiritual, there are not generations added, human history determines generations.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"The whole human race will be found to be under a curse...The Father of all wished His Christ, for the whole human family, to take upon Him the curses of all" Justin Martyr c160
'For He is the most holy and merciful Lord, and He loves the human race.'Irenaeus c180
'You have already been ransomed by Christ - and that at a great price!'Tertullian c211
"We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of All men, especially those who believe." St. Paul c60
"'And in Him is no darkness at all' - that is, no passion, no keeping up of evil respecting anyone. He destroys no one, but grants salvation to all." Clement of Alexandria c195
"God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't." 20th Century 'theology'
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Nang is offline
Nang Treasure Hunter
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,093
Join Date: August 4th, 2005
Spam: 79 | Anti-Spam: 1966
Pearls: 612
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 11:48 PM
 
In reply to this post by RanRan
 
 
 
History. Human history. Since, in the spiritual, there are not generations added, human history determines generations.
That is your problem. Your consider "generations" to speak of physical reproduction only.

But God promised a "Seed" who would reproduce spiritual seeds (offspring) unto God. And throughout history there has been a spiritual lineage of men and women born of God.

To insist the term "generation" is earthly and temporal only, is to deny the regenerating and raising up of all the saints unto Christ throughout time.

Jesus Christ has produced "children." Christians are the "sons of God;" the spiritual offspring of Christ; who make up the spiritual "family of God;" His "generation" of believers and faithful, manifested since the days of Abel, Seth, Noah, Job, Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets and all the N.T. saints, etc.


Nang

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
". . When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Lost is offline
Lost human
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  unclassified  |  ...  
Posts: 1,756
Join Date: April 15th, 2006
Spam: 7 | Anti-Spam: 857
Pearls: 449
 
Old
  April 2nd 2007 , 11:49 PM
 
In reply to this post by rhutchin
 
 
 
If one can spin these verses around to mean anything other than that current generation then one can spin anything to mean anything.
The people who were spoken to would have taken it to mean that generation - hmm gee I wonder why I would think such a stupid thing?
Just read the rest of the new testament - seems like quite a lot of early followers expected Christ to return "very soon" - of course they may have been mislead because I guess they only had the Holy Spirit to guide them - not much of a guide I guess.

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Nang is offline
Nang Treasure Hunter
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 4,093
Join Date: August 4th, 2005
Spam: 79 | Anti-Spam: 1966
Pearls: 612
 
Old
  April 3rd 2007 , 12:08 AM
 
In reply to this post by Lost
 
 
 
If one can spin these verses around to mean anything other than that current generation then one can spin anything to mean anything.
Do you deny that biblical prophesies often had immediate application as well as second or third future applications?



The people who were spoken to would have taken it to mean that generation
So? That does not rule out future application to others of the spiritual generation born of Christ, does it?


seems like quite a lot of early followers expected Christ to return "very soon" - of course they may have been mislead because I guess they only had the Holy Spirit to guide them - not much of a guide I guess.
Indeed they did. And Christ did not return in their lifetime. They saw their fellow believers dying, but Christ had not returned, yet. And they worried. And they suffered under scoffers who opposed the truths of the promises of God.

Does that alter the prophecy of which we speak?

Or is there additional Scripture that addresses this reality?

(See II Peter Chapter Three for the answer.)

Nang

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
". . When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Lost is offline
Lost human
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  unclassified  |  ...  
Posts: 1,756
Join Date: April 15th, 2006
Spam: 7 | Anti-Spam: 857
Pearls: 449
 
Old
  April 3rd 2007 , 04:35 AM
 
In reply to this post by Nang
 
 
 
Do you deny that biblical prophesies often had immediate application as well as second or third future applications?





So? That does not rule out future application to others of the spiritual generation born of Christ, does it?




Indeed they did. And Christ did not return in their lifetime. They saw their fellow believers dying, but Christ had not returned, yet. And they worried. And they suffered under scoffers who opposed the truths of the promises of God.

Does that alter the prophecy of which we speak?

Or is there additional Scripture that addresses this reality?

(See II Peter Chapter Three for the answer.)

Nang

I can't really add more than I have said - the early christians appear to have thought that Christ meant their generation - I can't see why I would be better equipped to understand the passage better than they - only because it appears to have been unfulfilled unless you take a preterist spiritual fullfilment viewpoint which is the most likely explanation I believe.

Of course to fit other more complex endtime theories we need to change the meanings a bit and make them more complex than they were - its all fun when you have a theory to fit I guess

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Rupert Pupkin is offline
Rupert Pupkin Talking to the hand
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Despairing  
Posts: 693
Join Date: August 12th, 2006
Spam: 24 | Anti-Spam: 804
Pearls: 516
 
Old
  April 3rd 2007 , 09:20 AM
 
In reply to this post by rhutchin
 
 
 
Hi rhutchin.

I have rambled on at length about this verse in the thread "partial partial preterism" which is current, so I won't repeat myself here.

But I will give this crucial clue: if you want to understand what the phrase means, you must, repeat must, look at the other occurrences of the same phrase in the synoptic gospels and the rest of the NT. Look at Mt. 11:16, 12:41-42; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12; 13:30; Lk. 7:31; 11:29-32; 11:50-51; 17:25; 21:32. Then look at Hebrews 3:10.

The same phrase occurs in all these verses and nowhere else. Yes, it is the generation to whom Jesus spoke. But it also has a deeper mystical significance. It is the generation of the wicked; the generation that fell in the wilderness and did not inherit the promised land.

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

« Previous Thread   |   Post New Thread   |   Next Thread »


 
Forum Jump  

Page generated in 1.01553 seconds with 14 queries