Just this afternoon, a pastor-in-training preached about the Resurrection of the Dead at our church, and although he said what I had always believed, he made me doubt it. Things can be that weird.

How, he asked, could we be raised in the same bodies in which we died? How could people who lived 5000 years ago and whose ashes had been scattered everywhere by the wind? He affirmed God's omnipotence by quoting an example from Isaac Newton, who reportedly scattered iron filings on his garden path, covered them with a layer of sand, and then 'magically' got them all back using a magnet. So far, so good.

Now, I have no problem whatsoever affirming that God can summon ashes with a kind of divine magnetism and remake bodies out of them. But the situation is more complicated than with the iron filings, because of the cycle of nature: dead bodies, especially when buried, become the material from which other bodies are formed. Hypothetically, the body of a man who died millennia ago might be distributed over the bodies of a million men living today!
And besides that, our body cells are often replaced.

But assuming that God creates entirely new bodies (similar, or identical to the old bodies) and puts the same spirit in them clashes with a strong a priori assumption: namely, that God in re-creating changes, rather than obliterating the old and completely replacing it with a new version. In conversion, the 'new man' is not a different person from the 'old man', but some things are purged and some things are added. Other examples could be invented. Do you have any thoughts on this issue?

That's funny--what you've said is exactly the same objection Gerd Ludemann gave against the Rez in a lecture I heard.

Have you ever read 1 Corinthians 15, by chance?

In moving from the old body to a resurrected body, you may note that before the resurrection but after death there is yet an existence of that soul or spirit. This soul or spirit must likely exist to be resurrected. Hence, the definition of that man or woman is not based upon the physical matter but is based upon the identification that "I am me"

This self identity is a problem to atheist's viewpoint for people in their lifespan. The problem is that the body has replaced all its cells in 7 years( as I have heard). So from a materialist naturalist standpoint the "I" of 10 years ago no longer exists. Yet our self indentity and our connection with the past reasonably identify us as being the same beings as existed 10 years before.

Originally posted by Turgonian

Just this afternoon, a pastor-in-training preached about the Resurrection of the Dead at our church, and although he said what I had always believed, he made me doubt it. Things can be that weird.

How, he asked, could we be raised in the same bodies in which we died? How could people who lived 5000 years ago and whose ashes had been scattered everywhere by the wind? He affirmed God's omnipotence by quoting an example from Isaac Newton, who reportedly scattered iron filings on his garden path, covered them with a layer of sand, and then 'magically' got them all back using a magnet. So far, so good.

Now, I have no problem whatsoever affirming that God can summon ashes with a kind of divine magnetism and remake bodies out of them. But the situation is more complicated than with the iron filings, because of the cycle of nature: dead bodies, especially when buried, become the material from which other bodies are formed. Hypothetically, the body of a man who died millennia ago might be distributed over the bodies of a million men living today!
And besides that, our body cells are often replaced.

But assuming that God creates entirely new bodies (similar, or identical to the old bodies) and puts the same spirit in them clashes with a strong a priori assumption: namely, that God in re-creating changes, rather than obliterating the old and completely replacing it with a new version. In conversion, the 'new man' is not a different person from the 'old man', but some things are purged and some things are added. Other examples could be invented. Do you have any thoughts on this issue?

These kinds of problems are raised all the time by hyper-preterists (those who deny a bodily resurrection). I would hasten to point out that we have absolutely no idea how God will do this (if we did, we would be God). What we do know (and believe in faith) is that God will do it. If we knew how God would accomplish this miracle, it would no longer be an article of faith, which is assurance of God's promises, even when they are unseen (2 Cor. 4:18). There are things which are simply beyond human comprehension (Isa. 55:9). Our job is to testify to the truth (1 John 4:14), not explain it so that we can completely understand it.

No matter how impossible or complicated things get, God is running the show, and He knows exactly what He is doing. "But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible,'" (Matt. 19:26). Though men can come up with interesting "problems" for the resurrection, we are to "let God be true though every one were a liar," (Rom. 3:4), even when answers to their objections seem far away. For we can very well agree with Christ: "But Jesus answered them, 'You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God,'" (Matt. 22:29).

Rayado, probably I did, but I'll reread it.

mikewhitney, yes, man's spirit remains in existence, but I was wondering with what kind of bodies we would be raised -- completely new ones or (partially) old ones?

ChosenOne66, nothing was further from my mind than to deny the possibility (or even probability...nay, certainty) of the future bodily Resurrection, but thinking such matters through is not at all bad, and may lead to reasonable conclusions.

I have put in for a new nose, brown hair to replace my old grey hair and better eyesight.
I would like a small cabin near a river so I can fish and relax a bit after a very tiring life.
I have no doubt that the God who created the universe from nothing is capable of making a backup copy of my brain if its worth keeping which I doubt and He will give me whatever He would like me to have in order that I can satisfactorily praise and worship Him which is the reason for which I have been created.

I too have thought of this. Specifically what about a molocule that has been shared by dozens (if not thousands) of different people. This has always been a curiosity for me, but I never saw it as a problem. For one, Jesus resurrection body was described as having the ability to pass through walls. IMO I think it is reasonable to assume that our resurrection bodies will be similar to his. Therefore, whatever they are made of, they will not be bound by the laws of physics that govern this current earth (as opposed to the New Earth). Our res bodies won't die or corrupt.

IOW, there will be such a substantial change, that the material transformation of the "original" molocules, is low on the list of amazing things that will happen at that time.

Originally posted by Turgonian

ChosenOne66, nothing was further from my mind than to deny the possibility (or even probability...nay, certainty) of the future bodily Resurrection, but thinking such matters through is not at all bad, and may lead to reasonable conclusions.

I wasn't suggesting that you were denying the possibility or certainty of the resurrection (at least, I hope it didn't come across that way. if it did, I apologize). I was making the point that I don't think that we can ultimately offer a truly satisfactory answer to these protests beyond rough analogies. That's why I believe we are to simply testify to the resurrection, rather than trying to make it totally reasonable to unbelievers. There is a level of incomprehensibility in all this.

As to the resurrection body, I ran across this quote by Thomas Oden. He summarizes the ecumenical position (Protestant, Roman, Orthodox) of the univeral Church throughout history:

Does this imply that precisely the same cells and molecules that once constituted our body will be regathered and recomposed? No. For even in earthly existence, there is no such continuity. The body is constantly changing materially, and has been doing so since infancy. ... Yet its basic features have continuity, due to their genetic coding. The DNA molecules provide a unique, specified code for each individual that stamps each one as distinctive. There is no precise molecular identity between the grain of wheat buried in the ground and the harvest gathered the next summer, but there is clearly continuity of the organism. ... God will find fit means to guarantee the sameness of the body without constituting this as precisely the same cellular identity. The identity of the person will remain, as one person may survive several physical bodies metabolically during a given lifetime.

Thomas Oden, Life in the Spirit, pp. 402-403

This seems to be a much more reasonable position to take. I never thought of the DNA argument before.

Now that's an interesting thought. Thanks!

You said it yourself: "our body cells are often replaced." Yet nowhere did you doubt, although your body's cells have been replaced (approximately every 7 years), that you are the same person regardless. What this means is that God can "replace" your current body with a new one, yet in some way it would be tied to your current identity (especially when you factor the soul into the equation).

I am also reminded of John the Baptist's words to the Jewish religious leaders: "God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham." (Matt. 3:9) That may not have any application to resurrection, but if it does apply, then it may apply like this: God is able, if He wished to do so, to take an inanimate object and change its structure so that it would be a genetic relative of Abraham's. Seems to me, then, that He could do the same with inanimate matter in terms of fashioning a new body that would be genetically "related to" one's current body.

Remember that, ultimately, our identities spring from the mind of God. I don't mean this in a pantheistic sense that we are "manifestations of God." I mean that before we existed, we were an idea in God's mind, and He turned that idea into a reality. And any meaning that our lives have, whether good or evil, is a meaning that derives from the Divine Mind; so also does the information stored in our DNA spring from the mind of God. That includes our personal identities. God can miraculously and sovereignly attach those identities to any object He wishes, and turn that object into a new version of *us*.

Even in science fiction such a concept is implicitly recognized -- in stories where matter, including humans, is replicated such that the replicant is literally indistinguishable from the original (the most recent example of this, that I'm aware of, is the movie THE PRESTIGE). I'm not suggesting scientists might actually be able to accomplish this in the future; I'm saying that the very fact such stories are written shows that at least some people, even nonChristians, recognize that there could be such a thing as a "replicant" that would possess the very same identity as the original.

Perhaps, then, our resurrected bodies will be replicants of our original bodies, bearing the same DNA except with changes to make us fit for the Age to Come.

In Jesus' name,
Andy

Here's what I think. The problem of identity through time is a notoriously difficult metaphysical problem. Consider the following two well-known examples:

(a) A wooden ship, we'll call her the Poseidon, is repaired plank by plank, by replacing each plank with a new one. This goes on until every single plank is replaced. The old planks are put in a pile in a garage. But then someone gets the old planks, puts them together again into a boat identical to the original. So there are now two boats, both the same except that one is looking a bit worse for wear than the other. Now which of the two is actually the Poseidon?

(b). Bill Gates buys the Parthenon from the Greeks in order to put in his garden, which helps solve the Greek budget deficit. As part of the deal, Gates has a marble replica of the Parthenon made and situated exactly as the original was. Then he reconstructs the Parthenon imported from Greece in his front yard. Which of these two is really the Parthenon?

Our intuitions go in opposite ways in these two examples; in the first case we are likely to say that the ship with the new boards replaced one by one is the "original", whereas in the second we are likely to say that the Parthenon in Bill Gate's yard is the "original". What is the logic behind this? Hard to say.

But returning to bodily resurrection - however God does it, I think our intuition, using ordinary language conventions, will be to say that the resurrected body is the same body that died. And that is good enough for me.

Originally posted by Rupert Pupkin

Here's what I think. The problem of identity through time is a notoriously difficult metaphysical problem. Consider the following two well-known examples:

(a) A wooden ship, we'll call her the Poseidon, is repaired plank by plank, by replacing each plank with a new one. This goes on until every single plank is replaced. The old planks are put in a pile in a garage. But then someone gets the old planks, puts them together again into a boat identical to the original. So there are now two boats, both the same except that one is looking a bit worse for wear than the other. Now which of the two is actually the Poseidon?

(b). Bill Gates buys the Parthenon from the Greeks in order to put in his garden, which helps solve the Greek budget deficit. As part of the deal, Gates has a marble replica of the Parthenon made and situated exactly as the original was. Then he reconstructs the Parthenon imported from Greece in his front yard. Which of these two is really the Parthenon?

Our intuitions go in opposite ways in these two examples; in the first case we are likely to say that the ship with the new boards replaced one by one is the "original", whereas in the second we are likely to say that the Parthenon in Bill Gate's yard is the "original". What is the logic behind this? Hard to say.

But returning to bodily resurrection - however God does it, I think our intuition, using ordinary language conventions, will be to say that the resurrected body is the same body that died. And that is good enough for me.

OK. I know this is off topic (sort of) but reminds me of a joke.

A man walks into an antique market and sees an item labled, "Axe of Abraham Lincoln" for $75.

He asked the clerk, "Did this axe really belong to Lincoln?".

"Yes", the clerk replied.

The was amazed that an item belonging to Lincoln was priced so low. So he took a look. The axe was worn, but not worn so much that it looked to be over 100 years old. And the handle had a staple in it that looked machined, and not of 19th century construction.

The man confronted the clerk. "Hey, I thought you said this belonged to Abraham Lincoln. But the axe does not look that old."

"Well," said the clerk it is Abe's axe. Of course the blade has been replaced three times and it has had 7 new handles."

As to identity and recognizing others who may look totally different, as in a new body, that is easy for God and has already been experienced by christians.
Our spirit, thru the Holy Spirit, receives things thru to our brains as we grow closer and closer to God.
I suppose you could call them words of knowledge or something but it is just something that you know for certain came from God, so recognizing people would be easy as pie done that way - we would just "know" that a particular person was a certain person.
The realm of the spirit is a big topic but almost all that really matters.
God is spirit and those that worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

Technically today you have another body then one you had 10 years ago. I mean all the athoms are other.

I was watching (well scanning the chanels and stoped briefly at) the PBS documentary on Mormons. Apprently they believe in atom for atom restoration during the Rez. Problem for them IMO.

Turgonian,
I read your post very carefully, and this is my reply to your question? My words come from a biblical perspective only. Do I know How God will accomplish the resurrection? No, but do I know what is written about it, yes!!!

The resurrection of the dead is like this--> God will return the spirit/soul back to earth and the dead in Christ Jesus will RE--again, Surrect--rise up, Bodily and then the resurrected physical body will be Transformed (glorified) into NON Physics---a glorified body fit and apt for existence in the realm of the NON physical (non Matter)

Immortal, not mortal, not physical, no longer to die, but this same glorified (spirit ONLY) body will be able to Manifest itself into the universe of matter just as Jesus did after His resurrection and glorification.
Remember, Jesus asked His Father to Glorify Him with what He was Before His incarnation. Since God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is HOLY SPIRIT and NOT physical, Jesus (the logos of GOD made flesh in John 1:14) asked His Father to glorify and return Him to His prior state and mode of existence in the spirit realm devoid of any matter and or physics.

We shall be as Jesus IS.....we shall be glorified and be spirit eternally so in GOD!!

Sincerely said,
Consumatum