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Lyell at Niagara
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  April 17th 2006 , 06:01 PM
 
 
 
 
 
Charles Lyell visited Niagara Falls in 1842 during his visit to North America. He made detailed observations of the falls, and the gorge of the Niagara River. He estimated the rate of retreat of the falls from the edge of the Niagara Escarpment, and calculated the amount of time that has elapsed since the initiation of the erosion that has resulted in the Niagara Gorge, which he thought may have begun about 35,000 years ago. Lyell tried to show the geology of the Niagara River did not support the idea of a great flood only a few thousand years ago having significant geologic effects, but he was willing to go along with a "tranquil flood" that left no evidence at all.

More recent investigation tends to confirm that catastrophic flooding has indeed left its mark on the area, as there are indications that there were at least five cataracts similar to the present Niagara Falls, and these are believed to have been contemporaneous.

In his book Travels in North America Lyell presented a summary of his view of the sequence of the events that caused the gorge of the Niagara River. He avoided the more significant question of the manner in which the Great Lakes were excavated, and to this day, uniformitarian geologists have been unable to explain it in a satisfactory manner. The excavation of lake basins, streamlining of sediments, and formation of the drift, are all related to the effects of tectonic uplift when the region was submerged, in the "disintegration theory" discussed below. Lyell analyzed the sequence of events involved, that produded the scenery at Niagara, in a list of events by which he tried to show how an extended period of time was essential. But he excluded catastrophic events, and failed to notice important geologic features that undermine his interpretation.

A process of in situ disintegration causing the drift helps simplify the story of the formation of the Niagara Gorge. This much simpler explanation is compared to Lyell's theory in the following paragraphs.

Lyell wrote (Travels in North America v. 1 p. 47): "The first event then to which we must recur is the superficial waste or denudation of the older stratified rocks, all of which had remained nearly horizontal from the era of their formation beneath the sea to a comparatively modern period."

The denudation of the Silurian and older rocks that once extended out over Lake Ontario is a crucial item in the history of the Great Lakes region. The mode by which it was accomplished is the key for understanding the geology of Southern Ontario, the Canadian Shield, and the Great Lakes area. Lyell was a dogmatic advocate for uniformitarianism, and since his approach restricted past causes to those now in operation, he attributed the missing strata which once extended over Lake Ontario to long ages of erosion, but that would not account for the excavation of the Great Lakes. The alternative, suggested by the tilted strata in the region, and by the uplift of the underlying Canadian Shield, and by the deep lake basins, is that the denudation was caused by rapid currents generated by a series of vertical uplifts when the land was submerged. The catastrophic currents generated by these uplifts swept over the Great Lakes area, eroding lake basins, and streamlining the surrounding land into patterns of drumlins, numbering in the tens of thousands in Ontario and New York, and some of them also occur on the bottom of Lake Ontario.

Lyell continues: "They at length emerged slowly, and portions of their edges were removed by the action of the waves and currents, by which cliffs were formed at successive heights, especially where hard limestones were incumbent on soft shales."

Lyell's idea of slow elevation is refuted by the evidence for fast currents provided by streamlined landforms and by the depth of the lake basins, some extending below sea level, which cannot have been caused by river erosion or by waves on the shore. Rivers that empty into the Great Lakes in present conditions tend to fill them up and form deltas. Virtually no sediments are being removed at the outlets. Neither does continental glaciation account for the excavation of lake basins, as merely postulating a former ice sheet or glacial 'lobe' in a lake does not explain how the lake basin formed. Fast currents that swept over the area when the region was submerged, on the other hand, adequately explains the excavation of the material lake basins and its removal to distant areas. The deep erosion was aided by the process of in situ disintegration as explained below.

Lyell wrote: "After this denudation the whole region was again gradually submerged, and this event took place during the glacial period, at which time the surface of the rocks already denuded were smoothed, polished, and furrowed by glacial action, which operated successively at different levels."

Lyell's scenario requires the land was submerged while the original sediments were deposited, raised again for their denudation, and again submerged. These postulated vertical movements of the continent are entirely unnecessary, as the initial denudation due to catastrophic currents, and the resulting in situ disintegration can explain the formation of the drift. Striations on bedrock can be explained by lateral movements of the drift due to expansion after the disintegration occurred.

Lyell wrote: "The country was then buried under a load of stratified and unstratified sand, gravel, and erratic blocks, occasionally 80, and in some hollows more than 300 feet deep. An old ravine terminating at St. David's, which intersects the limestone platform of the Niagara, and opens into the great escarpment, illustrates the posterity of this drift to the epoch when the older rocks were denuded."

Burial of the country by a mantle of drift, a process required in both Lyell's theory and the glacial theory, is also rendered entirely unnecessary, as the process of in situ disintegration explains the formation of drift in place. The buried St. David's gorge stretches from the Whirlpool to the edge of the escarpment. To explain the formation of this buried gorge in the post-flood ice age theory requires the excavation of the gorge, either by the glacier, or by meltwater, followed by the replacement of the excavated drift, as the drift remaining in the gorge has a characteristic feature; most of the pebbles in it are red or green in color like the underlying Queenston Shale from which it was derived. But how could these pebbles have been rounded? Neither the proposed glacial environment, nor the subsequent meltwater environment seems able to explain it.

The origin of the St. David's buried gorge is easily explained by the penetration of the surface of disintegration to various depths, and by the propagation of the disintegration along joints. Not only the St. David's gorge, but the upper gorge of the Niagara River can be explained as the products of in situ disintegration. There is drift below the talus layer at the level of the present Niagara River, which was discovered during the construction of the railway bridge in the 1920's. This can be explained by the disintegration process forming the gorge, that was initially filled with drift, some of which the river subsequently eroded. Talus from the walls of the gorge covered the drift in the bottom of the gorge and now protects it from further erosion.

Lyell wrote: "The period of submergence last alluded to was very modern, for the shells then inhabiting the ocean belonged, almost without exception, to species living in high northern, and some of them in temperate, latitudes."

The submergence recognized by Lyell was real, although it is denied in the modern glacial interpretation, as ice dams and proglacial lakes are invoked instead. This is discredited by the presence of marine fossils in Michigan, such as whales and walrus.

Lyell wrote: "The next great change was the re-emergence of this country, consisting of the ancient denuded rocks, covered indiscriminately with modern marine drift. The upward movement by which this was accomplished was not sudden and instantaneous, but gradual and intermittent. The pauses by which it was interrupted are marked by ancient beach-lines, ridges, and terraces, found at different heights above the present lakes. These ridges and terraces are partly due to the denudation and re-arrangement of the materials of the drift itself, which had previously been deposited on the platform, the sloping face of the escarpments, and in the basins of the great lakes."

Rather than submergence, elevation, repeated submergence, and re-elevation as Lyell here postulates, it was the initial elevation of the land when it was submerged that generated currents that eroded the sediments that once stretched out over Lake Ontario. The currents caused the denudation Lyell referred to in his first stage. The removal of overburden initiated the in situ disintegration that formed the drift as the rock was exposed to reduced pressure. The changed conditions caused compaction and initiated chemical alteration and diagenesis of the sediments, including a disintegration process that converted the sediments to sand and gravel in situ. The currents that eroded the sediments also formed patterns of drumlins and excavated the basins of Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, as well as other lake basins along the perimeter of the Shield. Disintegration to various depths resulted in drumlins of varying composition in close proximity. There are drumlins composed of drift, drumlins of bedrock, and drumlins partly composed of drift and partly composed of bedrock all having the same form and orientation.

Disintegration of the rock due to removal of overburden promoted the deep erosion of lake basins. Where the drift produced by disintegration was eroded by currents the process propagated more rapidly, so the erosion of rock basins enhanced the disintegration.

The sediment eroded from lake basins was removed and redeposited, possibly in the continental shelves. The land was not elevated in one sudden motion, but there were numerous uplifts involved which spilled the currents in different directions. The drumlins north of Lake Ontario indicate a flow towards the north or northwest, probably due to uplift of the highlands in western New York and the area south of Lake Erie. The drumlins in northwestern New York indicate flow direction was towards the south. As the land was raised above sea level flow was diverted eastward down the Hudson Valley, and also towards the southwest. Only one series of elevations of the land is required, rather than multiple up, down, up, down earth movements such as Lyell invoked.

He wrote: "As soon as the table-land between Lakes Erie and Ontario emerged and was laid dry, the river Niagara came into existence, the basin of Lake Ontario still continuing to form part of the sea. From that moment there was a cascade at Queenston of moderate height, which fell directly into the sea. The uppermost limestone and subjacent slate being exposed, the cataract commenced its retrograde course, while the lower beds in the escarpment were still protected from waste by remaining submerged."

The Niagara River gorge was probably eroded for much of its length in a buried drift valley similar to the St. David's buried gorge. For a brief period there were at least five cataracts over the escarpment, as there was drainage of a vast area when the land emerged from the sea. The scale of the uplifts gradually decreased in intensity over a few centuries.

The more significant question about how the basins of the Great Lakes formed was passed over by Lyell and has been largely ignored by glacialists. Modern geology is still unable to provide any answer, but it is explained by the flood they deny happened. For a more complete discussion and background information see my article "Was there an Ice Age after the Flood?" available at:
http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/GT/PFIA.html

Doug

 
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Old
  April 17th 2006 , 06:45 PM
 
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Originally posted by Doug Cox
[some stuff about Niagara falls]
Hi Doug - welcome to TWeb. Is there a particular reason for your posting, or is it just a drive by misfire?

Roy

 
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  April 17th 2006 , 07:38 PM
 
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Originally posted by Roy
Hi Doug - welcome to TWeb. Is there a particular reason for your posting, or is it just a drive by misfire?

Roy
Thanks Roy, I thought I might get some feedback or discussion of the ideas I have presented.

Doug

 
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Old
  April 17th 2006 , 08:14 PM
 
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Originally posted by Doug Cox
For a more complete discussion and background information see my article "Was there an Ice Age after the Flood?" available at:
http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/GT/PFIA.html

Doug
Hi Doug. It has been a long time since we corresponded. I see you haven't changed. You are still avoiding any new data and any new science. I looked at your more complete discussion and found that the average age of the references was 1917. for an article which is supposed to tell us about how Niagara was formed, you seem to have avoided any of the scientific observations which didn't exist back then and used old worn out ideas.

Secondly, for the references which are post 1960, only 5 are to secular literature the others 10 being to young-earth creationist or religious books. and of those that are to secular literature, only a couple could be said to refer to the real scientific literature. Way to go. You haven't changed in the 5 years since we corresponded any more than your sources have changed (other than by growing older).

Doug, wouldn't it be nice to actually join the 21st century rather than live in the 19th?

 
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Old
  April 17th 2006 , 09:02 PM
 
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Originally posted by Doug Cox
Thanks Roy, I thought I might get some feedback or discussion of the ideas I have presented.
Doug
Okay, but I have a question first. Do you read any mainstream literature more recent than the 19th century? I mean, you had to go out of your way to find some of this stuff. Seems like most of your younger references are YEC literature.

You say:

Why have no glacial geologists figured out how drumlins were formed?
Who says they haven't? Besides you, that is. There are numerous theories, but as with many geological problems, we do not have many continental ice sheets that are receding these days, so we simply don't see them forming. How does your theory, whatever it is, explain drumlins better? Do you know how drumlins formed? Please show us.

They have failed to come to any consensus.
Well! Call 60 Minutes! We can't have any contoversy now, can we? Do you have a consensus?

Sir James Hall described the formation of streamlined hills in the vicinity of Edinburgh in 1812. He attributed them to catastrophic currents caused by uplift of submerged areas in the sea. The writer's disintegration theory explains their variety of composition.
1812? THAT'S your reference?

Existing glaciers and ice sheets build prominent end moraines of angular debris that mark their maximum extent, but instead of being a prominent, continuous ridges of debris across the country, such as a former ice sheet would cause, the drift border thins out so gradually the border is difficult to find in many areas. In large areas of Illinois and Wisconsin the former existence of ice is disputed.
Please document. I have no information on this.

History knows nothing of an ice age, although most cultures have preserved traditions of the flood.
Well, we have floods just about every year somewhere in the world. Now, ice ages... that's a bit different. They don't happen very often in human history, by anyones measure. And why would people who have no language or writing record and ice age?

Wouldn't there have been some record or tradition preserved, if a vast ice sheet had extended over much of Europe and North America in the time of man?
There is. It's just not an oral or written tradition. They probably didn't think it remarkable. They just wore warmer clothes, etc.

Are stones and the pebbles of the drift better rounded in upper layers? In the glacial interpretation, those at the base of the drift layer should be more angular, not having been transported as much. But that is not observed.
'
PLease document a glacial interpretation. You are blowing smoke here.

Fragile rock pinnacles and stacks along the Niagara Escarpment are anomalous, as these areas should have suffered maximum wear and tear from ice sheets.
So, you don't believe that post-glacial erosion is possible??? Did someone say that all erosion stopped after that last ice retreat?

Would an ice-sheet over-ride mountain ridges, streamlining hard quartzite rock, and generate smooth, polished rock surfaces, as well as striations?
Ummm, why not? In fact, even as a non-glaciologist, I see little alternative but to form all of these.

These phenomena occur on Silver Peak in Killarney Park, Ontario.
Good. I'm sure it's very interesting. And I'm sure no one has ever figured it out. At least before the 20th century.

Doug, your theory is a rambling, disjointed walk-about through ancient geological data, personal incredulity, and a veneer of half-truths. It resembles a theory in only the vaguest sense. PLease acquaint yourself with some modern literature and lose the biased YEC stuff. Now, is that what you had in mind for discussion?

 
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Old
  April 17th 2006 , 10:31 PM
 
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GRMORTON,

You wrote:

Hi Doug. It has been a long time since we corresponded. I see you haven't changed. You are still avoiding any new data and any new science. I looked at your more complete discussion and found that the average age of the references was 1917. for an article which is supposed to tell us about how Niagara was formed, you seem to have avoided any of the scientific observations which didn't exist back then and used old worn out ideas....

Doug, wouldn't it be nice to actually join the 21st century rather than live in the 19th?

Ever hear of the appeal to novelty fallacy?

Here it is:


Description of Appeal to Novelty

Appeal to Novelty is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is new. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


X is new.

Therefore X is correct or better.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because the novelty or newness of something does not automatically make it correct or better than something older.

taken from: http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...o-novelty.html



You then wrote:

Secondly, for the references which are post 1960, only 5 are to secular literature the others 10 being to young-earth creationist or religious books. and of those that are to secular literature, only a couple could be said to refer to the real scientific literature. Way to go. You haven't changed in the 5 years since we corresponded any more than your sources have changed (other than by growing older).



Ever hear of the genetic fallacy?


Here it is:


The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, unless its past in some way affects its present value. For instance, the origin of evidence can be quite relevant to its evaluation, especially in historical investigations. The origin of testimony—whether first hand, hearsay, or rumor—carries weight in evaluating it.

In contrast, the value of many scientific ideas can be objectively evaluated by established techniques, so that the origin or history of the idea is irrelevant to its value.

taken from: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html


GRMORTON, if you could be more logical in your future posts it would be appreciated.

 
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Old
  April 17th 2006 , 10:48 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by kendemyer
Ever hear of the appeal to novelty fallacy?

Here it is:

"Appeal to Novelty is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is new. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:..."
Well, there you have your answer. It is not '...simply because it is new' but '...simply because it has more data.'

You then wrote:
...

Ever hear of the genetic fallacy?


Here it is:

"The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, unless its past in some way affects its present value. For instance, the origin of evidence can be quite relevant to its evaluation, especially in historical investigations. The origin of testimony—whether first hand, hearsay, or rumor—carries weight in evaluating it. "
Hmmph. I guess you didn't read the bolded part of your quote... Be more careful in future quote mining, Ken.

GRMORTON, if you could be more logical in your future posts it would be appreciated.
Good one, Ken. Have you considered a career in comedy?

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 02:28 AM
 
In reply to this post by Doug Cox
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doug Cox
Charles Lyell visited Niagara Falls in 1842 during his visit to North America. He made detailed observations of the falls, and the gorge of the Niagara River. He estimated the rate of retreat of the falls from the edge of the Niagara Escarpment, and calculated the amount of time that has elapsed since the initiation of the erosion that has resulted in the Niagara Gorge, which he thought may have begun about 35,000 years ago. Lyell tried to show the geology of the Niagara River did not support the idea of a great flood only a few thousand years ago having significant geologic effects, but he was willing to go along with a "tranquil flood" that left no evidence at all.

More recent investigation tends to confirm that catastrophic flooding has indeed left its mark on the area, as there are indications that there were at least five cataracts similar to the present Niagara Falls, and these are believed to have been contemporaneous.

In his book Travels in North America Lyell presented a summary of his view of the sequence of the events that caused the gorge of the Niagara River. He avoided the more significant question of the manner in which the Great Lakes were excavated, and to this day, uniformitarian geologists have been unable to explain it in a satisfactory manner. The excavation of lake basins, streamlining of sediments, and formation of the drift, are all related to the effects of tectonic uplift when the region was submerged, in the "disintegration theory" discussed below. Lyell analyzed the sequence of events involved, that produded the scenery at Niagara, in a list of events by which he tried to show how an extended period of time was essential. But he excluded catastrophic events, and failed to notice important geologic features that undermine his interpretation.

A process of in situ disintegration causing the drift helps simplify the story of the formation of the Niagara Gorge. This much simpler explanation is compared to Lyell's theory in the following paragraphs.

Lyell wrote (Travels in North America v. 1 p. 47): "The first event then to which we must recur is the superficial waste or denudation of the older stratified rocks, all of which had remained nearly horizontal from the era of their formation beneath the sea to a comparatively modern period."

The denudation of the Silurian and older rocks that once extended out over Lake Ontario is a crucial item in the history of the Great Lakes region. The mode by which it was accomplished is the key for understanding the geology of Southern Ontario, the Canadian Shield, and the Great Lakes area. Lyell was a dogmatic advocate for uniformitarianism, and since his approach restricted past causes to those now in operation, he attributed the missing strata which once extended over Lake Ontario to long ages of erosion, but that would not account for the excavation of the Great Lakes. The alternative, suggested by the tilted strata in the region, and by the uplift of the underlying Canadian Shield, and by the deep lake basins, is that the denudation was caused by rapid currents generated by a series of vertical uplifts when the land was submerged. The catastrophic currents generated by these uplifts swept over the Great Lakes area, eroding lake basins, and streamlining the surrounding land into patterns of drumlins, numbering in the tens of thousands in Ontario and New York, and some of them also occur on the bottom of Lake Ontario.

Lyell continues: "They at length emerged slowly, and portions of their edges were removed by the action of the waves and currents, by which cliffs were formed at successive heights, especially where hard limestones were incumbent on soft shales."

Lyell's idea of slow elevation is refuted by the evidence for fast currents provided by streamlined landforms and by the depth of the lake basins, some extending below sea level, which cannot have been caused by river erosion or by waves on the shore. Rivers that empty into the Great Lakes in present conditions tend to fill them up and form deltas. Virtually no sediments are being removed at the outlets. Neither does continental glaciation account for the excavation of lake basins, as merely postulating a former ice sheet or glacial 'lobe' in a lake does not explain how the lake basin formed. Fast currents that swept over the area when the region was submerged, on the other hand, adequately explains the excavation of the material lake basins and its removal to distant areas. The deep erosion was aided by the process of in situ disintegration as explained below.

Lyell wrote: "After this denudation the whole region was again gradually submerged, and this event took place during the glacial period, at which time the surface of the rocks already denuded were smoothed, polished, and furrowed by glacial action, which operated successively at different levels."

Lyell's scenario requires the land was submerged while the original sediments were deposited, raised again for their denudation, and again submerged. These postulated vertical movements of the continent are entirely unnecessary, as the initial denudation due to catastrophic currents, and the resulting in situ disintegration can explain the formation of the drift. Striations on bedrock can be explained by lateral movements of the drift due to expansion after the disintegration occurred.

Lyell wrote: "The country was then buried under a load of stratified and unstratified sand, gravel, and erratic blocks, occasionally 80, and in some hollows more than 300 feet deep. An old ravine terminating at St. David's, which intersects the limestone platform of the Niagara, and opens into the great escarpment, illustrates the posterity of this drift to the epoch when the older rocks were denuded."

Burial of the country by a mantle of drift, a process required in both Lyell's theory and the glacial theory, is also rendered entirely unnecessary, as the process of in situ disintegration explains the formation of drift in place. The buried St. David's gorge stretches from the Whirlpool to the edge of the escarpment. To explain the formation of this buried gorge in the post-flood ice age theory requires the excavation of the gorge, either by the glacier, or by meltwater, followed by the replacement of the excavated drift, as the drift remaining in the gorge has a characteristic feature; most of the pebbles in it are red or green in color like the underlying Queenston Shale from which it was derived. But how could these pebbles have been rounded? Neither the proposed glacial environment, nor the subsequent meltwater environment seems able to explain it.

The origin of the St. David's buried gorge is easily explained by the penetration of the surface of disintegration to various depths, and by the propagation of the disintegration along joints. Not only the St. David's gorge, but the upper gorge of the Niagara River can be explained as the products of in situ disintegration. There is drift below the talus layer at the level of the present Niagara River, which was discovered during the construction of the railway bridge in the 1920's. This can be explained by the disintegration process forming the gorge, that was initially filled with drift, some of which the river subsequently eroded. Talus from the walls of the gorge covered the drift in the bottom of the gorge and now protects it from further erosion.

Lyell wrote: "The period of submergence last alluded to was very modern, for the shells then inhabiting the ocean belonged, almost without exception, to species living in high northern, and some of them in temperate, latitudes."

The submergence recognized by Lyell was real, although it is denied in the modern glacial interpretation, as ice dams and proglacial lakes are invoked instead. This is discredited by the presence of marine fossils in Michigan, such as whales and walrus.

Lyell wrote: "The next great change was the re-emergence of this country, consisting of the ancient denuded rocks, covered indiscriminately with modern marine drift. The upward movement by which this was accomplished was not sudden and instantaneous, but gradual and intermittent. The pauses by which it was interrupted are marked by ancient beach-lines, ridges, and terraces, found at different heights above the present lakes. These ridges and terraces are partly due to the denudation and re-arrangement of the materials of the drift itself, which had previously been deposited on the platform, the sloping face of the escarpments, and in the basins of the great lakes."

Rather than submergence, elevation, repeated submergence, and re-elevation as Lyell here postulates, it was the initial elevation of the land when it was submerged that generated currents that eroded the sediments that once stretched out over Lake Ontario. The currents caused the denudation Lyell referred to in his first stage. The removal of overburden initiated the in situ disintegration that formed the drift as the rock was exposed to reduced pressure. The changed conditions caused compaction and initiated chemical alteration and diagenesis of the sediments, including a disintegration process that converted the sediments to sand and gravel in situ. The currents that eroded the sediments also formed patterns of drumlins and excavated the basins of Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, as well as other lake basins along the perimeter of the Shield. Disintegration to various depths resulted in drumlins of varying composition in close proximity. There are drumlins composed of drift, drumlins of bedrock, and drumlins partly composed of drift and partly composed of bedrock all having the same form and orientation.

Disintegration of the rock due to removal of overburden promoted the deep erosion of lake basins. Where the drift produced by disintegration was eroded by currents the process propagated more rapidly, so the erosion of rock basins enhanced the disintegration.

The sediment eroded from lake basins was removed and redeposited, possibly in the continental shelves. The land was not elevated in one sudden motion, but there were numerous uplifts involved which spilled the currents in different directions. The drumlins north of Lake Ontario indicate a flow towards the north or northwest, probably due to uplift of the highlands in western New York and the area south of Lake Erie. The drumlins in northwestern New York indicate flow direction was towards the south. As the land was raised above sea level flow was diverted eastward down the Hudson Valley, and also towards the southwest. Only one series of elevations of the land is required, rather than multiple up, down, up, down earth movements such as Lyell invoked.

He wrote: "As soon as the table-land between Lakes Erie and Ontario emerged and was laid dry, the river Niagara came into existence, the basin of Lake Ontario still continuing to form part of the sea. From that moment there was a cascade at Queenston of moderate height, which fell directly into the sea. The uppermost limestone and subjacent slate being exposed, the cataract commenced its retrograde course, while the lower beds in the escarpment were still protected from waste by remaining submerged."

The Niagara River gorge was probably eroded for much of its length in a buried drift valley similar to the St. David's buried gorge. For a brief period there were at least five cataracts over the escarpment, as there was drainage of a vast area when the land emerged from the sea. The scale of the uplifts gradually decreased in intensity over a few centuries.

The more significant question about how the basins of the Great Lakes formed was passed over by Lyell and has been largely ignored by glacialists. Modern geology is still unable to provide any answer, but it is explained by the flood they deny happened. For a more complete discussion and background information see my article "Was there an Ice Age after the Flood?" available at:
http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/GT/PFIA.html

Doug

What a post! He drifts along very erratically. Perhaps he should be frozen out!

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 05:16 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by kuboes1831
What a post! He drifts along very erratically. Perhaps he should be frozen out!

I was going to say that Arguments from massive ignorance rarely move the mountains for me, nor Bring the clouds and rains. In fact I have done so.

" I don't understand and these guys from 150 odd years ago didn't either. The flood must have been real!"

It is also somewhat amusing to Note that Lyell, a Christian, was the one who put the idea of a literal whole earth flood in the Grave, along with Usshers Chronology. Lyell and others went looking for the evidence that they were sure would be there. Turns out it was not. They then HAD to accept that perhaps the Bible writers might have been overstating the case, just a touch.


As almost everyone but our quote miner will point out, there has been quite a bit of work done in geology since Lyell's time. Perhaps you may want to do an audit of a first year geology course at a real university.

There is also the option of finding a Geology forum on Usenet and posit your ideas there. I dont advise this option if you are thinskinned as most of those are unmoderated and have very few restricions on language and abuse.

You could also ask Glenn to recommend some newer text for you to fill the 200 year old void in your understanding of the matters at hand.

At the moment you just look a bit foolish dangling there.

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 06:41 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by kendemyer
GRMORTON,



Ever hear of the appeal to novelty fallacy?




Ever hear of the genetic fallacy?



GRMORTON, if you could be more logical in your future posts it would be appreciated.
I appreciate your concern for my logic, but you have failed to actually detect any of these fallacies or, should I say, you fallaciously think you have detected logical fallacies. As to the novelty fallacy that is when one rejects evidence simply because it is old. But, in order to do any science, one must show why the new data is wrong and the old data correct. That is something Dougie Boy hasn't done. He has committed an error by not even knowing what the literature says in the 20th century and thus is bordering on committing the antiquity fallacy (just because it is old it is right).

As to the genetic fallacy, This isn't one either. That was merely a compilation of the ages of his references. Since I didn't say his ideas were right or wrong, but merely noted how out of date he was, that doesn't fall into that category. IF Dougie wants to show how his ideas are the right ideas, he needs to compare his ideas to the presently held ideas and show why his are better. Since, Dougie shows no evidence whatsoever of having even read the modern views, he is committing the genetic fallacy by saying that only things which are old are correct.

Thus, when you actually take a college level logic course, I might take you seriously in the area of logic.

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 06:56 AM
 
In reply to this post by Doug Cox
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doug Cox
I thought I might get some feedback or discussion of the ideas I have presented.
Hi Doug,

An interesting starting post

Are you familiar with Bernard E. Northup? He has an article, ON FINDING AN ICE AGE BOOK on Lambert Dolphin's cite. Your post reminded me about that article. Northrup has the same idea about a post-flood ice age and considers the Book of Job to be an eyewitness report about that ice age. Well, Northrup completely misses the important moral issues in Job, and also ignores that the calamities hitting Job weren't supposed to be global, but apart from that, ....


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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 07:25 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by bandecoot
It is also somewhat amusing to Note that Lyell, a Christian, was the one who put the idea of a literal whole earth flood in the Grave,
Actually he argued that there was a flood, but it lasted thousands of years. He thought the stones and boulders were drifted about by icebergs, and dropped into their positions when the ice melted.

Originally posted by bandecoot
Lyell and others went looking for the evidence that they were sure would be there.
Do you mean he looked for evidence that there was a great flood? Do you have a reference to support that?

If it is true, how could he have missed the Great Lakes? They seem to provide clear evidence for catastrophic erosion by fast currents.

Or, if you can suggest a more effective mechanism, I would be quite interested in it.

He could have read Sir James Hall's paper of 1812 that described streamlined landforms in the vicinity of Edinburgh. There are thousands of similar hills in Ireland, and even more in North America. They are excellent evidence for catastrophic currents that swept over these areas. Since he was commited to limiting past events to "causes now in operation" he ignored this kind of evidence, and sneered at those who had tried to explain them with his clever rhetoric.

Originally posted by bandecoot
At the moment you just look a bit foolish dangling there.
Let me guess, you *believe* in those ice sheets & glaciers, right?

Doug

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 08:12 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by bandecoot
I was going to say that Arguments from massive ignorance rarely move the mountains for me, nor Bring the clouds and rains. In fact I have done so.

" I don't understand and these guys from 150 odd years ago didn't either. The flood must have been real!"

It is also somewhat amusing to Note that Lyell, a Christian, was the one who put the idea of a literal whole earth flood in the Grave, along with Usshers Chronology. Lyell and others went looking for the evidence that they were sure would be there. Turns out it was not. They then HAD to accept that perhaps the Bible writers might have been overstating the case, just a touch.


As almost everyone but our quote miner will point out, there has been quite a bit of work done in geology since Lyell's time. Perhaps you may want to do an audit of a first year geology course at a real university.

There is also the option of finding a Geology forum on Usenet and posit your ideas there. I dont advise this option if you are thinskinned as most of those are unmoderated and have very few restricions on language and abuse.

You could also ask Glenn to recommend some newer text for you to fill the 200 year old void in your understanding of the matters at hand.

At the moment you just look a bit foolish dangling there.
Actually the geologists of 1800 were able guys - read Martin Rudwicks "Bursting the Limits of Time"

Before Lyell had picked up a geological hammer 99% of geologists had rejected a literal flood, and Ussher's chronology had been out for a century.

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 08:29 AM
 
In reply to this post by Doug Cox
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doug Cox
Actually he argued that there was a flood, but it lasted thousands of years. He thought the stones and boulders were drifted about by icebergs, and dropped into their positions when the ice melted.


Originally posted by Doug Cox
Do you mean he looked for evidence that there was a great flood? Do you have a reference to support that?
Why else would someone go looking for evidence of the Noahic Flood? You have 2 option to prove it or disprove it. You pick I dont mind.


Originally posted by Doug Cox
If it is true, how could he have missed the Great Lakes? They seem to provide clear evidence for catastrophic erosion by fast currents.
Or Glacial gouging, I dont know the area I just looked them up in my Atlas and they look to me like areas gouged out by a glacier and filled with meltwater after the glaciers receded. ASk a Geologist who works in Modern Geology

Originally posted by Doug Cox
Or, if you can suggest a more effective mechanism, I would be quite interested in it.
I think I just did. But you wont like it.

Originally posted by Doug Cox
He could have read Sir James Hall's paper of 1812 that described streamlined landforms in the vicinity of Edinburgh. There are thousands of similar hills in Ireland, and even more in North America. They are excellent evidence for catastrophic currents that swept over these areas. Since he was commited to limiting past events to "causes now in operation" he ignored this kind of evidence, and sneered at those who had tried to explain them with his clever rhetoric.
I am sure Lyell did read said work. But hang on You just said that catastropic events make Big lakes. Now they make streamlined hills? Which is it or were they possibly different kinds of events like an ice sheet moving over Scotland and Eire as opposed to a Glacial intrusion into a valley?

What does modern geology tell us about these features? I mean, I like old stuff more than the next guy. But speculating from a 194 year old text? I can't do that. Have you even looked for an explanation from the 20th century? It might surprise you.


Originally posted by Doug Cox
Let me guess, you *believe* in those ice sheets & glaciers, right?

Doug
Congratulations you got something correct. I accept the evidence as given by modern geologists who have built on the work started by your heroes in the 19th century. They see further because they stand on the shoulders of Giants, or on the bones of defeated useless hypotheses, again take your pick.

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 09:17 AM
 
In reply to this post by Doug Cox
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doug Cox
The more significant question about how the basins of the Great Lakes formed was passed over by Lyell and has been largely ignored by glacialists. Modern geology is still unable to provide any answer...
D'oh!

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/stud...1/gl_form.html

 
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Old
  April 18th 2006 , 09:29 AM
 
 
 
 
Hey Doug, do you still believe that the earth doesn't get hotter as one drills deeper into the earth? Just wondering. I recall you and I had quite a letter exchange about that issue.

 
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