why is vengeance/retribution seen as just?

[shadowman]

in addition to that question:

why is our default position with god hell. thats where we are all destined just because he felt like creating us.

so thats not part of our choice.

but we are given a choice to get out of what we are all born into.

why not just fix us in the firstplace and get rid of the divine revenge on us (for just doing what we do, what we were created to do)

god made me imperfect. if I was perfect I would never go against god. so why punish me for this imperfection.

if there is a desire to heal or mend me, why not just do it, instead of tell me "hey guy this book says you are horrible and worthy of eternal torment.... boy I would hate to be you WHEN YOU MEET THE LORD"

[atomicpoet]

Two things I can think about:

1) What causes imperfection? For instance, is there such a thing as an imperfect rock or an imperfect kite? If your reply is that morality makes us imperfect, how can we understand what is moral if we can only understand it imperfectly? Yet, the Bible states that we are not judged according to what we do not know but what we do know. So could it be that God does not judge us according to our divinely-created imperfections but according to our self-created imperfections?

2) If you were made imperfect, by definition you wouldn't be going "against God" since your purpose would be to be imperfect. And if you performed the task of imperfection perfectly, you would be the most terrible of paradoxes: a perfect imperfection. Therfore, God cannot punish you for being created imperfection but only for acting imperfectly, (e.g., acting immorally).

[shadowman]

I think perfection is always defined by the parameters of the idea.... it doesnt mean the same thing in all cases, ever, because it has to do with the perceptions of what is taking place or what is being discussed at the time the word is used.... same goes for imperfection...



I guess I also want to know what is so wondeerful about a wrathful god. I often hear that god is just. But isnt punishing forever a sign of unrighteousness?

[atomicpoet]

Well, to be honest with you, I don't think God punishes us for being imperfect. That would be unjust. I do, on the other hand, believe he judges us for being immoral.

Which addresses, in a sense, your further point. I don't know if God punishes people forever or if he punishes them and then there is an annhilation of existence (which would seem more just to me). However, I think there is a lot to appreciate about a wrathful God.

First, I don't know if you've ever been a victim of an unjust action. I, for one, don't think rapists and mass murderers should inherit a blissful afterlife. Actually, I get really angry to think that these people get to live a splendid life on earth while their victims have to suffer without just cause. I think these people should be judged.

Now, you may state that this is an "unloving" attitude, but you must admit that it is a very human attitude, a natural attitude for a person to have when confronted by evil. There should be retribution for evil acts because innocent people have suffered due to them.

Which brings me to the final point. I'm not a great arbiter of who should be judged favourably or harshly but I'd really like a perfect arbiter to weigh in on this subject. For this reason, I prefer a wrathful God to a detached God because at least he would be able empathize with the victims of great evils.

I don't know if punishing evil is right or wrong. It really depends upon whether one believes human souls are immortal or not -- which, in this case, is purely a pedantic discussion. But I would like a God who judges right and wrong (even if I'm judged infavourably).