Belief in Salvation is not limited to Universalism.

[mickiel]

I don't vist theologyweb much, because in times past, people who believed in the ability of God to give Salvation away to everyone, were obviously out of place here. And that is understandable, this is a Christian website, and Most Christians believe in limited atonement, directly oppisite from the belief of everyone being saved. The belief in everyone being saved is commonly known as Universalism, but it is not exclusive to Universalism. For example, I am not a Universalist, I hold to no religion, but I certainly believe in the Salvation of everyone. I am also not Christian, but I believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of our Father God, and that the bible is the written word of God. Now, as people are prone to do, they will try to place you into areas, because of your belief, but I am an independant, I walk alone in my belief, I hold to no group, and hold no desire to do so. I have been in groups and observed them from a distance, I simply do not accept or agree with any group on earth in their view of God, not totally.

So there exist people who are outside of commonly accepted labels of those who believe in God. I am sure it is a wonderful thing to be in a group that all see it the same way. But a view of Salvation is not exclusive to just any one group. Oh one group may try and lay claim on it, but I hold my revervations on why people try that also.

I hold no alligance to any Universalist group, but I believe in the Salvation of all of created humanity, and I believe it to be the unstoppable will of God to accomplish this.

Peace.
edited to add content of back to back post

Let me tell you what this world needs, and has always needed.

We need a God who will save everyone who ever walked on this planet. There is no such thing as any other ultimate need of humanity , other than this. Every unbeliever who has ever rejected God, NEEDS him MORE than any believer who has accepted him. Do you know how many people have rejected God, and are not even AWARE of their rejection? Do you know how many humans have lived and died that have not given themselves over to belief in a God?

We are talking about billions of human beings. You think God is going to herd together billions of his creations, his children, and because they do not believe in him, he's going to roast them as if they are meaningless chunks of useless meat? We don't know God if we believe these kinds of things.

You think God is not capable of putting belief into a human, and saving them? You think free will is WORTH billions stupidly throwing their lives away, and you think God VALUES human will that much to actually base their eternity on it?

Good Greif, the beliefs of men has gone blind to the real needs of humanity.

We need a God who will save us, NO MATTER WHAT WE BELIEVE! No matter what we do.

Because we are sick. The whole head of humanity is sick, and our hearts faint.

Humanity does not need a God who leaves Salvation up to free will.

We need a God who would predestine Salvation to everyone; And that is what we most grasciously have in our God.

And that is the real definition of Grace.

Peace.

edited to add the content of another back to back post

Thats just another reason I believe in the total Salvation and Reconciliation of All of Mankind. Because its whats needed. We don't need a Free Will offer of Salvation, thats not good enough, it would never be good enough . We do not need a God who would let us decide our eternity, that would harm far too many of us. We don't have enough sense to decide to follow God, and my belief is that he has enough sense to know that already.

Notice Psalms 21:1;" O Lord, in THY STRENGTH the King will be glad, in THY SALVATION how greatly he will rejoice. The strength of Salvation must be in Gods Strength, not free will human decision. Salvation is the Lords, not something based on how humans will believe, IF they believe.

Salvation is GOD'S, its his, it belongs to him, he created it, and gives it FREELY as a gift, it is not ours to have to claim by choice or behavior. The earth is the Lords, it belongs to him. The future is Gods, it is his to determine. This is WHY we can rejoice, because its all Gods doing, just like Salvation is all his doings.

The closer men get to the end times, the more they seek to alter Salvation into belonging to us, our actions, our beliefs. And the more stingy men who think they posses Salvation are getting. Eternal hell is getting larger in the sermons of preachers who are trying to fill hell up.

But there is a balm in Giliam, a great physican who has already dianosed humanity, and rendered hell meaningless.

And I believe in this great healer. I believe he will heal everyone, because thats what the world needs. We don't need an offer from a God who would allow human common sense to be his judgement of who to give Salvation to.

We need a God who has more sense than we do, more will than we do.

And we have that.

Peace.

Yet another back to back post

Belief in Salvation is not limited to Christianity, nor any other religion. Nor is it limited to Universalist. Jesus came to save that which is lost. Now, if everybody is lost, then he came to save everyone. Again Jesus stated that he came to earth not for the righteous, which means the believers, but that he came for the sinners, which means the unbelievers, to bring them to repentance, or change.

Now this is what Jesus said himself. What does it mean, I come not for the Righteous, but for sinners? Does that statement need to be theologically broken down and examined by the scholars? Do we need to ask a deep Christian versed in the word what it means?

Well, no, its just a simple statement, and believers don't like it, because it ranks sinners above them. Now the bible clearly states that all have sinned, and Jesus clearly states that he has come , not for the believers, but for the sinners. Now if ALL have sinned, and Jesus has come for the Sinners, then he has come for ALL of them. It takes no great spiritual mind to see this. This , and hundreds of verses and points of wisdom that the bible makes, is what gives me my belief in the Salvation of everyone.

Its not just some wild crazy belief of a heritic, Universal Salvation is well founded in Gods word.

And I will show this in the comming days.

Peace.

Do not flood the forum with back to back posts. You may edit your original post for up to 45 minutes, after that a moderator can assist you to add material you forgot to include the first time.

[Michael T.]

mickiel,


I don't vast TheologyWeb much, because in times past, people who believed in the ability of God to give Salvation away to everyone, were obviously out of place here. And that is understandable, this is a Christian website, and most Christians believe in limited atonement, directly opposite from the belief of everyone being saved.


Many who claim to be christians do not uphold the Biblical truth of Limited or Definite Atonement even though Christ and His Apostles taught that GOD has reserved salvation to His elect people and to no others than them.

I contend that such people; i.e. those who reject any of the teachings of Christ and His Apostles, have thereby forfeited the title of “christian” because of their disobedience. Do you agree?


The belief in everyone being saved is commonly known as Universalism, but it is not exclusive to Universalism. For example, I am not a Universalist, I hold to no religion, but I certainly believe in the Salvation of everyone.


Although the theory of “universal salvation” is popular, the fact remains that “universal salvation” has never actually occurred in any generation since GOD created human beings. And when we consider that the combined number of non-christians who belong today to Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and Confucianism is conservatively-estimated at 2,400 billion, it is obvious that it is not the will of GOD that all of the human race without any exception should be saved. Therefore the dream of “universal salvation” is far more improbable than ever before.

Since there are numerous statements in GOD’s infallible Scriptures which conclusively prove that “universal salvation” is certainly * not * the will of GOD, I suggest that you should take a critical look at your belief of “universal salvation” in the context of the Scriptures and decide whether you should abandon that belief as being fallacious.


I am also not Christian, but I believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of our Father God, and that the Bible is the written word of God.


I commend you for your belief that Bible is the written word of God, but that belief requires that you wholeheartedly and unconditionally commit yourself to belief and trust in ALL of the truths and principles which the LORD God has included in * All * of His Scriptures [i.e. not just the “nice” verses which seem to agree with your personal opinions], and that you also abandon all of your personal opinions which are contradicted or denied by ALL of the Scriptures in even the slightest degree.

IOW, your world-view must become identical with the Scriptures and the Biblical world-view.

All of GOD’s truths and principles which He has recorded in His infallible Scriptures must be identical to * your * own personal truths and principles. You and the LORD God will thus be in total unanimous agreement. Anything less this joint accord will be compromise, and GOD detests compromise.


Now, as people are prone to do, they will try to place you into areas, because of your belief, but I am an independent, I walk alone in my belief, I hold to no group, and hold no desire to do so. I have been in groups and observed them from a distance, I simply do not accept or agree with any group on earth in their view of God, not totally.


Despite your reservations, there are still people who are genuinely and totally committed to GOD’s Scriptures and to the * Real * Christ Who is revealed in and through GOD’s Scriptures, and there is much to be gained by regularly communing with such people, although I admit that they’re often not easy to locate, but the benefits of fellowship with them amply repay the effort required to find them.


So there exist people who are outside of commonly accepted labels of those who believe in God. I am sure it is a wonderful thing to be in a group that all see it the same way. But a view of Salvation is not exclusive to just any one group. Oh one group may try and lay claim on it, but I hold my reservations on why people try that also.


Belief in GOD is important, but be very sure that the God in whom you believe is none other than the LORD God revealed in His Scriptures. But belief in God is not enough. Christ says: “You believe in God; believe ALSO in Me” [John 14:1b]. This necessity is emphasised by the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:24-26 [below] -

Romans 3:24-26 -
“Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the Justifier of him who believes in Jesus.”

The Scriptures teach that saving Faith is the gift of GOD, and without saving Faith, no one can of themselves have saving Faith in Christ.

Therefore it is evident that in respect of all who perish in their unbelief and sin, that it is not the will of God that such people should be saved, for otherwise He would have given them His gift of saving Faith. Thus your theory of “universal salvation” is contrary to the Scriptures and therefore also contrary to the will of God.


I hold no allegiance to any Universalist group, but I believe in the Salvation of all of created humanity, and I believe it to be the unstoppable will of God to accomplish this.


If it was the will of GOD to accomplish t5he salvation of the entire human race, He would not have established a lake of fire [Revelation 21:8] for the just punishment of all unbelievers, all idolaters, fornicators, immoral and perverted persons, occultists, cowards, etc.

Since the Scriptures teach that saving Faith is the gift of God, without which a person cannot savingly believe on Christ and be saved, it therefore follows that it is not the will of GOD that all of the human race should be saved, for if it were, GOD would have given His gift of saving Faith to all without any exception, but the Apostle Paul states in GOD’s Scriptures that not everyone has saving Faith.

Finally, your messages indicate that you're not yet acquainted with the Biblical truths of sovereign Election, Pre-destination, and Reprobation, and thus your assumptions aren't informed by fundamental and Divinely-established Biblical Facts.

This is why I've recommended that you become fully acquainted with ALL of the Scriptures, not just the "nice" verses that * seem * to endorse your personal opinions. The Bible must always be considered in its entirety, as a consistent unity; not as a mere rag-bag of "cute sayings."

Michael T.

[mickiel]

Greetings Michael,

I have read your response, and I like the habit of some here that go through each individual thing a poster has remarked, I agree with that. I am not one to base my belief on " Cute sayings", but I most defintely like what you refer to as " Nice Verses", and yes, I am attracted to those nice things that the bible has to say. And yes, I do base my belief on the grace that the bible has to offer. And its a truck load of it in the bible, in its entirety. I admit to searching the Scriptures for those verses that speak of Life, and not condemnation. I am not attracted to condemnation, and do not view it as Gods attraction either.

The Gospel to me, is about Life Michael, Life and forgiveness for humanity. Yes, the bible does certainly have its share of things being condemned, but I place no weight of belief on condemnation. For example, Jesus condemned a tree in Mark 11:14, to never be eaten from again. Why should I compose a doctrine of condemnation from that? Jesus conversely spoke many bueatiful words of Life and Hope, Why not compose doctrines from those, if I must compose? Why not build on the words of Life and Gods Love for humanity? Is the Gospel now about Hell and Punishment?

Well no, not to me. Its about verses like Mark 3:28, where All the sins of men shall be forgiven, that is impressive to me. That is my Hope and desire. Or Heb.2:10, where it states that Jesus tasted Death for Everyone, not just righteous people. He died for us all, its all inclusive to me, and no one is going to be left out. As in Luke 2:10, the Good News is for ALL the people. And I search for all the verses that support that. Is then the Salvation of all men possible, Luke 1:37 states that with God all things are possible, is then that we all be with him too much to ask?

Jesus promised in John 12:32, " If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to me." Draw them for what, to give them a choice to accept him? In one moment Jesus can subject any humans belief to his Father, like he did many he has called who didnot first accept him. Doing that is nothing to his power, but everything to his desire.

And I will show that in scripture.

Peace.

back to back post added~

Strangely enough, its certain believers in God who really limit his Salvation to all. Even more strange, there are people who argue against the Salvation of all, and still claim they do not argue because they are against it, they merely argue because they think God is against it in his revealed word. It can be shown time and time again, and yet still not be " Seen by the Limited Atonement Mindset." And it is a mindset, a heart set against the forgiveness of all humanity.

Jesus knew this as he confronted the forefathers of this limited belief in Matt. 23:13;" But woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, because you " SHUT OFF " the Kingdom from men." The forefathers of self righteousness had a very bad habit of teaching doctrines that limited the amount of people who they wanted to be saved. They pushed hard at those things in scripture that were heavy binding on people and strict teachings that frightened people about God. Jesus called them " The Sons of Hell", in vs. 15, because they pushed the hell doctrine so fervently. They were desiring to put more people in Hell, than in Heaven, thats where this popular " Saying" of, theres more verses about hell than heaven comes from, this same aittitude. People claim with much pride, that Jesus preached more about hell than he did about heaven, which is just not true.

God has reasons for everything that he does, and humanity is wrapped into sin because of those reasons. In Romans 11:32; " For God has shut up ALL into disobedience that he might show Mercy unto ALL." This is something God has done, that many just do not comprehend. People are trapped into sin for a reason, and will be released for a reason. God is the source for both of those reasons. Humanity didnot shut itself up into sin, we do not hold that power, nor do we hold the key to release ourselves from this.

It requires Authority to shut people up into a disobedient life. There is no Authority except God, Rom.13:1. Those forces that keep us in this " Lock", exist because of God. Thats why men act and believe as they do. Not because they don't have a will, but because a will greater and far more powerful than us has already determined how human history will unfold. So I don't fault humanity for being shut up and devoid of Gods Spirit. Humans can only respond to God, if and when God determines its their time. There is no such thing as comming to God on your own, he must first open your heart to him, or its just nothing there Spiritually. The " Eyes of the Human Heart must be enlightened by God", Eph. 1:18, there is no such thing as " Self Spiritual enlightenment", it is not in the heart of man to enlighten himself devoid of God.

Salvation is an " Predestined Inheritance", Eph. 1:11. The past, present or future condition of humanity does not matter to God, he will do what he has already planned on doing. In Eph. 2:5, it shows a remarkable thing about God, even though he has locked humanity into disobedience, he still will save them. God is so rich in Mercy, even WHILE people are sinning and Spiritually dead unbelievers, he will " Make them Alive", and they by his grace will be saved. Our sinful condition is in subjection under Christ feet. Look at verse 7;"In order that in ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness toward us." Hey, its Salvation all in that verse.

Its easy for Jesus to save a person, relitively simple for him to do, weather they believe in him or not. Look at 1Tim. 4:10, and see the Salvation of both believer and unbeliever;" For it is for this we labor, because we have fixed our hope on the Living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of the Believers." Two distinct groups are saved here. This is not a " Cute Saying", its scripture, just like anyother scripture. And I believe it.

People who do not believe in God are blind unbelievers. Supposedly, those who see are converted. Why then are the converted teaching limited Salvation?

Notice Jesus in John 9:39;" For judgement I came into this world, ( what kind of judgement, to put those who do not accept him or see him in some burning hell?) No, he comes that those who are blind and do not SEE him, may see him. This is the Salvation of unbelievers right here. But Jesus gets even more aggressive by stating that those who " See", or view themselves as converted enough to limit Salvation to others, well that they will be blinded.

Anyhow, I want to go into more Scripture on this,

Peace.

[Michael T.]

Greetings, Mickiel,


Strangely enough, it’s certain believers in God who really limit his Salvation to all. Even more strange, there are people who argue against the Salvation of all, and still claim they do not argue because they are against it, they merely argue because they think God is against it in his revealed word. It can be shown time and time again, and yet still not be “Seen by the Limited Atonement Mindset." And it is a mindset, a heart set against the forgiveness of all humanity.


Firstly, “universal salvation” has never ever occurred in any generation since Creation. And with many millions of unbelievers; i.e. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, etc., dying every day in unbelief and sin, with inevitable dire implications thereof, it’s obvious that the theory of “universal salvation” is detached from Reality. Bear in mind too that John 5 and Hebrews 9 emphasise that if people are to be saved, it * must * occur in this present existence, because, as Hebrews 9:27 states, after death comes judgment.

Please also note that the Scriptures teach that Salvation is by Faith; i.e. without saving Faith, a person cannot be saved [Romans 3:25-26; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:11], and also, without Faith, no can please GOD [Hebrews 11:6].

The Scriptures also declare that saving Faith is the gift of GOD [2 Peter 1:1; Titus 1:1; Acts 13:48; Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3, etc.]

Therefore it is very evident indeed that it is not the will of GOD that the entire human race should be saved for if it were, He would have bestowed His gift of saving Faith upon everyone without any exception, but, as the Apostle Paul states in 2 Thessalonians 3:2, The LORD God has not done so.

Therefore you need to jettison your theory of “universal salvation” because it is certainly * not * the will of God.

Christ reminds us that in Matthew 4:4 that we should not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” and therefore it’s essential that we unconditionally submit to * All * that GOD has caused to be included in His Scriptures. Since GOD’s wisdom is infinitely preferable to mere human opinions, we should scrap our ideas and theories and instead, let GOD’s Wisdom per His Scriptures should always be our only wisdom.

Since the Scriptures prove that the theory of “universal salvation” is mere human opinion, that theory should be promptly rejected and condemned as not of GOD.

Secondly, the omnipotent LORD God cannot be limited. His will is irresistible. Ephesians 1:11b states: “ . . . He works all things according to the counsel of His own will.” To assert otherwise is to imply that the LORD God is not Omnipotent, in which case GOD is not GOD!, which is an ontological impossibility as well as being untrue.


Jesus knew this as he confronted the forefathers of this limited belief in Matthew 23:13; “but woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, because you “SHUT OFF “the Kingdom from men." The forefathers of self righteousness had a very bad habit of teaching doctrines that limited the amount of people who they wanted to be saved. They pushed hard at those things in scripture that were heavy binding on people and strict teachings that frightened people about God. Jesus called them " The Sons of Hell", in vs. 15, because they pushed the hell doctrine so fervently. They were desiring to put more people in Hell, than in Heaven, that’s where this popular " Saying" of, there’s more verses about hell than heaven comes from, this same attitude. People claim with much pride, that Jesus preached more about hell than he did about heaven, which is just not true.


A considerable amount of what is taught and believed today in what is called “christianity” is contrary to and denied by the Scriptures. All the more reason then why we should be totally committed to the Scriptures, and to all the truths therein, rightly divided in consistency with the Scriptures as a whole.


God has reasons for everything that he does and humanity is wrapped into sin because of those reasons. In Romans 11:32; “For God has shut up ALL into disobedience that he might show Mercy unto ALL."


It’s essential that you always consider every particular verse or portion of t every particular verse or portion of the Scriptures he Scriptures in every particular verse or portion of the Scriptures every particular verse or portion of the Scriptures every particular verse or portion of the Scriptures their contexts, AND ALSO in the context of ALL of the Scriptures.
This obviously requires commitment and zeal but any failure to observe this necessity will produce unbalanced, uninformed and erroneous conclusions.

Romans 11:32 -
The context of Romans 11:32 is chapters 9 to 11 of Romans. When we carefully consider Romans 11:32 in that context, we see that in Romans 11:32, the Apostle Paul is referring to the Jewish people; i.e. not to Gentiles. Furthermore; Chapters 9 to 11 of Romans clearly show that those Jewish people whom in Romans 11:32 the Apostle Paul says will be saved are not everyone of the entire Jewish nation in all generations, but only all of GOD’s elect people from among the Jews.
Pay particular attention to Romans 9:6-13 and to Romans 11:26, which verses are crucial to a proper and Scripturally-consistent understanding of Romans 11:32.

Many people mistakenly assume that on every occasion that the word “all” occurs in the Scriptures, that it musty only mean “every individual person of the entire human race in all generations from Adam and Eve until the end of the world without any exception whatsoever” but such people are mistaken, because they haven’t considered the context in which that world “all” has occurred, and thus they arrive at often absurd conclusions which are contradicted by the Scriptures as a whole.


Salvation is a “Predestined Inheritance", Ephesians 1:11. The past, present or future condition of humanity does not matter to God, he will do what he has already planned on doing. In Ephesians 2:5, it shows a remarkable thing about God, even though he has locked humanity into disobedience, he still will save them.


GOD has reserved Salvation to all of His elect and predestinated people.
He has irrevocably purposed to save all of His elect and predestinated people, but no more or less than these. Even though the number of God’s elect people is vast [Genesis 15:5; Hebrews 11:12; Revelation 7:9, etc.] yet that number is significantly less than the entire human race ever to have existed from Creation onwards until the end of created space-time.


Its easy for Jesus to save a person, relatively simple for him to do, weather they believe in him or not. Look at 1 Timothy 4:10, and see the Salvation of both believer and unbeliever;" For it is for this we labor, because we have fixed our hope on the Living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of the Believers." Two distinct groups are saved here. This is not a " Cute Saying", its scripture, just like any other scripture. And I believe it.


Christ saves all whom the Father has elected to save.
Conversely, Christ is not the Saviour of those whom the Father excluded from the number of His elect people.

John 6:44 –
Christ declares:
“NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father Who has sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

In John 6:44 Christ declares several very important truths:

(1) In John 6:44, Christ declares the total inability of Man to come to Christ of his own will or “free-will” or desire. This total inability is one of the consequences of the total depravity of all unregenerate humans.

(2) In John 6:44, Christ proves that Election and Pre-destination the Apostle salvation are unconditional from the human side; i.e. the practical extent of salvation was conclusively determined by GOD the Father even before Creation [see Ephesians 1:3-11]. Since the extent of salvation in Christ has been immutably determined the Father, this pre-empts and totally excludes the popular religious ideas that salvation depends on “human acceptance” of a supposed “free offer,” or on the supposedly “free-will” of unregenerate, depraved and sin-enslaved Man, or on a “decision for christ,” and such-like.

This therefore shows that the theory of “conditional election” – that salvation depends on humans’ “free-will” decision or “consent” or “approval of a ‘free offer’” is a falsehood.

The Scriptures declare that the causal and sovereignly-effective Choice was GOD the Father’s, and His and His alone. [Ephesians 1:3-11; 2 Timothy 1:9].

In other words, Man has no choice in Election, nor indeed should he have a choice? Why not? Because the LORD God in His grace has already chosen all His elect ones and did so even before Creation. The genuine believer in Christ is therefore more than content and most grateful that GOD has graciously already made this Choice on his behalf.

(3) In John 6:44, Christ proves that the practical extent of salvation in Christ is reserved for all those whom GOD the Father draws to Christ. In respect of all those who perish in unbelief and sin [John 3:16; John 3:36 etc.] it is therefore evident that it was not the will of GOD that any of those reprobates should be brought to salvation.

Thus Christ proves that it’s not the will of GOD that everyone of the entire human race should be saved. Thus the theory of “universal salvation” is effectively contradicted and denied by Christ and shown to be opposed to the will of GOD.

(4) John 6:44 also proves the irresistibility of God’s grace in salvation since all whom the Father draws to Christ for salvation * are * indeed saved; not one of them is ever lost; all without any exception are raised up to glory by Christ at the last day. Thus, Christ is not a mere “possible saviour” as many mistakenly assume. Instead, Christ is the sure certain Saviour of al of God’s elect and predestinated people.

(5) In John 6:44, Christ also proves the Biblical Truth of God’s gracious preservation of all of His elect people because all without any exception are kept safe by God’s irresistible grace unto ultimate glory.



People who do not believe in God are blind unbelievers. Supposedly, those who see are converted. Why then are the converted teaching limited Salvation?


Firstly, everyone – including “religious” people, and also many who assume themselves to be "christian” - remain spiritually-blind in their unregenerate sin-enslaved state.

Secondly, genuine i.e. regenerated believers in Christ uphold and teach the Biblical Truth of Particular Redemption [a.k.a. Definite or Limited Atonement] because it is taught by Christ and His Apostles and it is the very Word of GOD, and they are therefore obligated and privileged to proclaim it and thus glorify GOD and His infallible Word, and exalt Christ Who is the appointed Saviour of all of the Father’s elect and predestinated people.

In my earlier message I mentioned the Bible Truth of Election unto salvation. The Scriptures teach that before creation, GOD the Father chose [elected] and pre-destinated a vast number of yet to be created people – but not all the human race – to be brought to salvation in Christ [Ephesians 1:3-11; 2 Timothy 1:9; Romans 8:28-30].

Election per se is a discriminatory act because it includes some but, as an inevitable corollary, it excludes others. So also with the Election and Pre-destination unto salvation which GOD the Father completed even before Creation.

To sum up, the Biblical Fact of GOD the Father’s Election and Pre-destination unto salvation is itself abundant proof of the fallacy of the theory of “universal salvation.”


Notice Jesus in John 9:39;" For judgment I came into this world, (what kind of judgment, to put those who do not accept him or see him in some burning hell?) No, he comes that those who are blind and do not SEE him, may see him. This is the Salvation of unbelievers right here. But Jesus gets even more aggressive by stating that those who " See", or view themselves as converted enough to limit Salvation to others, well that they will be blinded.


It’s essential that we always consider the context of every particular verse or portion of the Scriptures. Not to do so is to risk erroneous conclusions.

So if you carefully consider John 9:39 in its immediate context; i.e. in its context of Chapter 9 of the Gospel of John, you’ll see that Jesus was addressing the Jews, and He was condemning the Jewish religious leaders; i.e. the Scribes and the Pharisees.

Although it is very true that Christ saves sinners, it is also true that Christ does not save every sinner in the world, because as you and know, many people die without ever having heard of Christ, and of all who hear of Christ, many die without having exercised saving Faith in Him.

People often cite John 3:16 as supposed “proof” of “universal salvation” but this shows that such people haven’t read what John 3:16 says.

John 3:16 – and also John 3:36 – in effect divide the entire human race into two groups:
(1) those who have saving Faith in Christ the only-begotten Son and who thus have eternal life, and,
(2) all of the remainder; i.e. all unbelievers, who perish.

Also consider John 3:36 –
“He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.@

By now you should be seeing at first hand that the theory of “universal salvation” is contrary to the will of GOD as revealed in GOD’s infallible Scriptures.

Make a practice of testing all your conclusions and opinions against * ALL * the Scriptures. And whatever fails that crucial litmus test, immediately and totally reject and altogether abandon.

Psalm 119:24]
“Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.”

Psalm 119:104-105 -
“Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.”

Michael T.

[mickiel]

Belief in Salvation is not limited to Universalism, and it is based on God, who is not " Partial", which means he would be picky and choose only certain people, as the Christians are teaching, but it means he is not partial to call only believers unto him, but will call everyone. The Calling of God is just a matter of time, and it will be done to everyman, woman and child, no one, no one will be excluded.

Let me show you some common sense. In Romans 5:17, it shows that sin is a " Covering that Spreads from generation to generation, passed down from Adam to every single human being born bar none. Nobody has been excluded from this reign of Death. Now conversely, and just as percisely, just as sure as sin reigned and effected everyone, Gods grace and his Gift of Righteousness, will REIGN LIFE in everyone! Thats what this verse is saying, and it matters not to me how some Christians try and limit the Atonement in it. Just as everyone was included in sin , through no choice of their own, they are included in Salvation, through no choice of their own.

Now, just in case that verse is a fruad, well then the next verse, 18, hammers down this amazeing truth, this unbelievable truth, just as well. Through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all, and that all means every single human being. Now it very easy for the mindset of some to accept this, because they really desire it. We accept what we desire, or want. So this mindset cannot see the rest of this verse, they are just blind to it, unbelievers of it. It conversely states that through ONE act of Righteousness, Jesus sacrifice, There RESULTED JUSTIFICATION of LIFE TO EVERYONE! Now thats going to be the result, or the future of all of humanity, obviously it has not yet resulted in that IN OUR BELIEF, but it has in mine. I can see this now.

This is what is the Lamp to my feet, and I hate the false way of limited Salvation. Once this glory has shined on your mind, it will walk you through the bible and you will see the GREAT GRACE of God. You will see what he is planning on doing, and your worship of him will be stunned by his kindness, he's actually already forgiven everyone, no matter what. Now I expect that from God, desire it from him, place all my hope on him, because the sight of men has been blinded. The Salvation of everyone Fits God like a glove, now I no longer worry about anything, the stark fear has been removed. The stain of quilt is meaningless, the false interpitation of hell bears no effect. Where the sin of humanity has increased, Grace diamectrically has and will increase more, vs. 20. That is a formula for forgiveness that is constant, and fault finding Christians cannot limit this constant reality. Its Gods way of complettely covering all sin, thus sin cannot reverse Salvation.

I would like to apologise for posting back to back post eariler, I had momemtarily forgotten that rule here, it willnot occur again. Its just that there is so much more, and as oppurtunity comes, I will show it in Gods word. Mind you, I am not arguing against anyone, the Truth will stand on its own and penertrate whom it will, I merely state my belief.

Peace.

[Michael T.]

Greetings Mickiel,


Belief in Salvation is not limited to Universalism, and it is based on God, who is not " Partial", which means he would be picky and choose only certain people, as the Christians are teaching, but it means he is not partial to call only believers unto him, but will call everyone. The Calling of God is just a matter of time, and it will be done to everyman, woman and child, no one, no one will be excluded.


The unalterable fact remains that, as I pointed out in am earlier message, that very many are indeed excluded; e.g. the billions of people of the Eastern religions; Hindus, Buddhists, etc. plus atheists, occultists , etc., so that it is indisputable that innumerable people die every day in an unsaved state, and the Bible itself testifies that such is the case.


. . . He is not partial to call only believers unto him, but will call everyone.


The Scriptures teach that people become believers, not before, but after they have been called. Repentance and Faith come * after * Calling and Regeneration; never before.


Let me show you some common sense. In Romans 5:17, it shows that sin is a " Covering that Spreads from generation to generation, passed down from Adam to every single human being born bar none. Nobody has been excluded from this reign of Death. Now conversely, and just as percisely, just as sure as sin reigned and effected everyone, Gods grace and his Gift of Righteousness, will REIGN LIFE in everyone!


Don’t overlook the very important Biblical Truth that salvation is obtained only through saving Faith in Christ. John 3:16 and John 3:36
tell us that the righteous wrath of God remains on all who do not have saving Faith in Christ and that they will perish.

The gift of righteousness mentioned in Romans 5:17 is bestowed on those who have saving Faith in Christ, and on no others than these.

Hebrews 11:6 tells us that without Faith, it is impossible to please God.
The Apostle Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 3:2 that not everyone possesses saving Faith.
The inevitable conclusion is obvious; i.e. nor everyone is saved, nor can be saved.


That’s what this verse is saying, and it matters not to me how some Christians try and limit the Atonement in it. Just as everyone was included in sin, through no choice of their own, they are included in Salvation, through no choice of their own.


I’m sorry to disappoint you as I’ve already explained to you, Limited Atonement is a very basic Bible Truth taught by Christ and Hus Apostles.

Take a closer look at Romans 5:17 -
“For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY WHO RECEIVE abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)”

Romans 5:17 says that those people who reign in life are those who have received abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness; i.e. those who have saving Faith in Christ and who have been justified by that saving Faith – see Romans 5:1 [below].

Romans 5:1 -
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

Conversely, people who do not have saving Faith in Christ remain in their unsaved state, do not have an abundance of grace, and continue to be unrighteous; i.e. dead in sin.

Not everyone has saving Faith in Christ; the Bible tells us in John 3:36 that many people remain under God’s wrath because they do not have saving Faith in Christ.

So Romans 5:17 is not talking about “universal salvation” – it’s talking about Justification by Faith, and it is a fact that not everyone has saving Faith in Christ.


Now, just in case that verse is a fraud, well then the next verse, 18, hammers down this amazing truth, this unbelievable truth, just as well. Through one transgression, there resulted condemnation to all, and that "all" means every single human being. Now it very easy for the mindset of some to accept this, because they really desire it. We accept what we desire, or want. So this mindset cannot see the rest of this verse, they are just blind to it, unbelievers of it. It conversely states that through ONE act of Righteousness, Jesus sacrifice, There RESULTED JUSTIFICATION of LIFE TO EVERYONE!
’

Consider Romans 5:18 -
“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

The free gift in Romans 5:18 is the free gift of righteousness by saving Faith in Christ through God’s grace. It can only be obtained through saving Faith in Christ, since salvation is only by saving Faith in Christ [refer to Romans 3:25-26; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:14; Ephesians 2:8; Hebrews 11:6, etc.]

Your misunderstanding occurs because you’re overlooking the fundamental Biblical Truth that salvation can only be obtained through saving Faith in Christ.

Another basic Bible Truth that you‘re not taking into account is that saving Faith is the gift of God, and you need to give careful consideration to the implications of this Bible Truth.

Try to make a practice of studying verses of Scripture in their contexts. For example, instead of looking at Romans 5:18 in isolation, also carefully study all of its context - which is Romans 3:21 through to Romans 8:39 inclusive.

Michael T.

[mickiel]

There is a biblical principle that Faith without works is dead, and I think men believe that their own works is what ativates Faith. The works that verse is refering to is Gods active works, not the beliefs of men. We seem to think we can muster up enough Faith to save ourselves and others, and from that thinking, we mold and shape the Scriptures to fit our own doctrines, and mold our own comfort zones. Faith in Salvation, is Faith in God, the hpoe we hold in what we believe he can do. What he then will do is not based on how much Faith we have, but based on himself. I have Faith in God, not in Universalism, and my belief is limited, but what God can do is not limited or affected by my Faith. In Luke 1:27;" For Nothing will be Impossible with God." The Salvation of everyone then is not impossible, nor based on belief that it is possible.

In looking into the belief of the Salvation of all being Gods will, it MUST be within his word, or we have nothing to go on.What if then God himself swore an Oath that he would save everyone, would that be sufficent? Well it most certainly is, but men would still not believe it. God has already done such a thing in Isaiah 45:22-25; Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other." Now, listen to Gods Holy Oath here:

" I have Sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from my mouth in Righteousness, and WILLNOT turn back, that to me every knee will bow, every tounge will swear Alligiance." Knees bowing and tounges confessing is total conversion, and here God swears that EVERYONE will do this. Right here is the destiny of all humanity, right here is the Salvation of every sinner and saint. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about this, believe it or not.

In vs. 24 it speaks about all the people who were angry at God will be put to shame. The shame will be this; every sinner who rejected God and thought their life was destined for hell, will be abundantly pardoned, they will be ashamed because they didnot realize how merciful God really is. Then some believers in God will be put to shame, because their going to find out that God will give eternal life to everyone, and they will be angry because they won't think its fair of God to do that. After all, they, like the Brother of the prodical son, remained Faithful and obedient, why is God rejoicing and giving eternal life to all these sinners who spent their whole lives in active willful sin. Well God will still love those who " Remained home", but they will be put to shame for being angry at God for letting the " Sinners come home."

Notice vs.25; " IN THE LORD, not in the faith and belief of men, in the Lord, ALL the offspring of Israel will be saved. All of them, and the vast majority of them will be God rejecting unbelievers.

Thats why God choose Isreal to be his " Example" in the OT. They disobeyed him time and time again, and he kept saving them anyway. They worshipped idol gods and broke every single law and commandment he issued to them, and he STILL forgave them, and kept his word to them. That is EXACTLY what he is doing, and will do with all of humanity. He will do this BECAUSE OF HIMSELF, not his followers, or those who believe. Notice Hebrews 6:17; " In the Same way God, DESIRING even MORE to show the heirs of the promise the UNCHANGEABLENESS of HIS purpose, interposed with an Oath."

Now, as I said before, God DESIRES to MAKE every knee bow to him, which is submission, and every tounge confess to him, which is conversion, and free will has no place in this promise of God, men are just going to do what God determines them to do, WHEN he is ready for them to do it.

This is the future of all of humanity, and it is the true gospel truth.

Peace.

[Michael T.]

Mickiel,


We seem to think we can muster up enough Faith to save ourselves and others, and from that thinking, we mold and shape the Scriptures to fit our own doctrines, and mold our own comfort zones.


It’s well known that the theory of “universal salvation” is human speculation based on a highly-selective view of Scripture which isolates particular words and phrases without regard for the contexts thereof, nor any regard for the context of the Scriptures in their entirety.


Faith in Salvation is Faith in God, the hope we hold in what we believe he can do. What he then will do is not based on how much Faith we have, but based on himself. I have Faith in God, not in Universalism, and my belief is limited, but what God can do is not limited or affected by my Faith.


It’s better to believe that GOD will perform that which He has specifically promised in His Scriptures to do. Otherwise we’ll commit the error of assuming that GOD is in the business of obeying our personal opinions, which is an altogether different matter!


In Luke 1:27;" For Nothing will be Impossible with God." The Salvation of everyone then is not impossible, nor based on belief that it is possible.


Yes, but that doesn’t mean that GOD is obliged to do what * WE * see to be impossible, nor does it mean that GOD is under obligation to act according to * our * will and desires.
GOD always acts according to * His * will, not our wills.
As it is written”
“He works all things according to the counsel of * His own * will” [Ephesians 1:11b].


In looking into the belief of the Salvation of all being Gods will, it MUST be within his word, or we have nothing to go on.


“Universal salvation” is * not * in the Scriptures.
The only way that you’re going to get the unBiblical theory of “universal salvation” into the Scriptures is to imagine it’s there or assume it’s there, but that is deliberate self-deception and it’s promoting a falsehood.


What if then God himself swore an Oath that he would save everyone, would that be sufficient?


GOD has never sworn an oath to save the entire human race.


Well it most certainly is, but men would still not believe it. God has already done such a thing in Isaiah 45:22-25; Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other." Now, listen to Gods Holy Oath here:


So, Mickiel, has every individual person of the entire human race in all generations without any exception turned to GOD?
And is every individual person of the entire human race in all generations without any exception saved in Christ?
Certainly not.

Pleaser note that the issuing of a command does not of itself mean that the people to whom the command is issued have the ability to obey that command. Quite the opposite.

For example, GOD commands that everyone keep all of His commandments. But do they? Certainly not.
And the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 8 that nor of themselves are they able to keep GOD’s Laws.

The Apostle Paul also teaches in Romans chapter 3 that not even one of Adam’s race – which includes you and me - has ever kept GOD’s Laws. And if we HAD kept GOD’s Laws, we wouldn’t need Christ as Saviour!!

Similarly, GOD’s command to “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other” certainly has * NOT * produced “universal salvation” and GOD knows it, and I know it, but do you know it?

Why then does GOD issue commands which He knows people are unable to obey? Two reasons among others: (1) to harden people’s hearts, and (2) to demonstrate even more vividly the sinfulness and deceitfulness of sin [see Romans 3:20; Hebrews 3:13].


"I have Sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from my mouth in Righteousness, and WILLNOT turn back, that to me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear Allegiance." Knees bowing and tongues confessing is total conversion, and here God swears that EVERYONE will do this. Right here is the destiny of all humanity, right here is the Salvation of every sinner and saint. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about this, believe it or not.


You’re mistaken.
The prophet Isaiah is speaking concerning the end-times Day of the LORD. Christ also referred to the end-times Judgment in the Gospel of John [below]:

John 5:28-29 -
“Do not be surprised at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And they shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.”

This means that although everyone will be resurrected at the last day, many [i.e. the Reprobate] will be resurrected to judgment and condemnation and eternal punishment and everlasting shame, and others [i.e. God’s elect people] will be resurrected to glory and to everlasting joy in the LORD God.

The Reprobate will bow their knees before the LORD God and confess Him as their righteous Judge, and the others; i.e. God’s elect people, will bow their knees before the LORD God and confess Him as their Redeemer and gracious Saviour.


In vs. 24 it speaks about all the people who were angry at God will be put to shame. The shame will be this; every sinner who rejected God and thought their life was destined for Hell, will be abundantly pardoned,


No, you’re mistaken.
They will be ashamed of themselves, and ashamed of their sins, and ashamed of their having been condemned by GOD, and ashamed because GOD has sent them to Hell as He has promised in His Scriptures.

Mickiel, you’re relying on your opinions, making up your ideas as you go along, instead of relying only on what GOD actually states in His Scriptures.
There’s an enormous difference between mere guess-work and speculations and opinions on the one hand, and on the other hand, the Divinely-reliable Truths of GOD’s Spirit-inspired infallible Scriptures.


Notice vs.25; " IN THE LORD, not in the faith and belief of men, in the Lord, ALL the offspring of Israel will be saved. All of them, and the vast majority of them will be God rejecting unbelievers.


You’re mistaken.
If you refer to Romans chapters 9-11, it will become obvious to you that in Isaiah 45:21, the prophet Isaiah is exclusively referring to GOD’s elect from among the Jews; i.e. not the entire Jewish nation in all generations.

Mickiel, it’s absolutely * essential * that you always consider every particular verse or portion of the Scriptures in the context of *ALL * of the Scriptures. If you do not do so, will you will continue to make mistaken conclusions as you’ve been doing and continue to do.


That’s why God choose Israel to be his " Example" in the OT. They disobeyed him time and time again, and he kept saving them anyway. They worshipped idol gods and broke every single law and commandment he issued to them, and he STILL forgave them, and kept his word to them. That is EXACTLY what he is doing, and will do with all of humanity.


You’re mistaken.
Revelation 21:8 proves your idea of “universal forgiveness” to be wrong.
Revelation 21:8 refers to GOD’s provision for those who He condemns to everlasting punishment:
“But the cowards, and unbelievers, and the immoral, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Add to this the statement in Revelation 20:15 -

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where does Revelation 20:15 speak of “universal salvation” and “universal forgiveness”? It does nothing of the sort; instead, Revelation 20:15 contradicts and denies your ideas of “universal salvation” and “universal forgiveness.”


He will do this BECAUSE OF HIMSELF, not his followers, or those who believe. Notice Hebrews 6:17; " In the Same way God, DESIRING even MORE to show the heirs of the promise the UNCHANGEABLENESS of HIS purpose, interposed with an Oath."


This verse doesn’t support your theory of “universal salvation.”
In any case, the Scriptures teach that GOD has reserved salvation for His elect people and to no others than these.


Now, as I said before, God DESIRES to MAKE every knee bow to him, which is submission, and every tongue confess to him, which is conversion, and free will has no place in this promise of God, men are just going to do what God determines them to do, WHEN he is ready for them to do it.


You’re mistaken.
Consider John 5:28-29 in which Christ refers to the two end-time resurrections:

Gospel of John 5:28-29 -
“Do not be surprised at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And they shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.”

This means that although everyone will be resurrected at the last day, many [i.e. the Reprobate] will be resurrected to judgment and condemnation and eternal punishment and everlasting shame, and others [i.e. God’s elect people] will be resurrected to glory and to everlasting joy in the LORD God.

The Reprobate will bow their knees before the LORD God and confess Him as their righteous Judge, and the others; i.e. God’s elect people, will bow their knees before the LORD God and confess Him as their Redeemer and gracious Saviour.


This is the future of all of humanity, and it is the true gospel truth.


Only in your personal opinion.
The testimony of the entire Scriptures contradicts your utopian ideas.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 the Apostle Paul speaks of Christ’s coming as Righteous Judge in the end-tines:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 -
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Thus, on end-time Day of Judgment [Revelation 20:12], there will not “universal salvation” or “universal forgiveness” but a separation of God’s elect people from the reprobates. The first of these two groups; God’s elect and saved people, will be sent to everlasting felicity with the LORD God, and the others; i.e. the reprobates, will all be condemned by GOD to everlasting punishment and shame. Christ Himself personally confirms this in Gospel of John 5:28-29].

I strongly recommend that in this matter, that you take Christ at His word.

Michael T.

[mickiel]

TheSalvation of all contained within the bible, cannot be seen by unbelievers of it. This is what the bible means by" In Seeing they willnot see, and Hearing, they will stillnot hear it." The mind must be spiritually connected to it. This does not mean you must have Gods Spirit within you, but his Spirit must at least open you to this. Using myself as an example, I do not have Gods Holy Spirit, but I do believe his Spirit has taught me this.

Now, let me show some of you the power, the sheer power that Jesus has at his disposal. In Phil.3:21;" Who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory, by the Exertion of the power that he has even to SUBJECT ALL THINGS to himself." Now again, my eyes and belief and desire has been set toward the Salvation of all, it is a mindset, and its all in this scripture. Jesus holds the power to subject all things to himself. Now why in the name of sanity and reason people think he willNOT use that power to subject all people to him, IN THE FUTURE, not the past, is beyond me. People dont WANT him to use it, because thats what kind of hearts they have, and desires they have. They want heaven all to themselves, so they search the scriptures to find support for that limited greedy mindset.

Now, over to something Jesus said that even believers in him, do not believe. This is a personal prophecy from Jesus that is clearly him stateing that he will save everyone. In John 12;32," And if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." I quess Christians figure Jesus was just talking in symbols or just running his mouth or something. He was refering to his crucifixtion, his death. And again, he didNOT mean he would draw all men to him right after he died, or 1,000 years after he died, he gave NO timetable as to when this would occur. So it must be future tense. But Jesus PROMISED universal salvation for everyone right there.

You cannot guage salvation by people who are claiming to be saved, because they might not truly be converted, They do not have Gods Spirit just because they say so,nor can you guage Salvation by those who are not converted and do not have Gods Spirit, because they might be given it, before or even after they die and are ressurected. You just shouldnot try and judge that with your inward desire to limit God.

Eventually every human will be enlightened, John 1:9. Every single human being will come to know the truth, and be converted. Now I understand that this literally sickens some Christians to hear this, and I offer my condolences to your feelings.

Peace.

[Michael T.]

Mickiel,


Now, let me show some of you the power, the sheer power that Jesus has at his disposal. In Philippians 3:21;" Who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory, by the Exertion of the power that he has even to SUBJECT ALL THINGS to himself."


The Apostle was writing in the first instance to believers in Christ in principle. It is their bodies; i.e. the bodies of all elect believers in Christ which Christ will change at the last day.

But no such change will be necessary in respect of the reprobate [Philippians 3:19]; i.e. to those whom GOD the Father has not chosen to be brought to salvation, but instead and since before Creation, they have been destined for judgment and condemnation.

If and when you begin a detailed and methodical study of ALL of the Scriptures, you will then realise that your theories of “universal forgiveness” and “universal salvation” are denied and exposed as falsehoods by the very basic Biblical Truths of Election and Pre-destination; these same Biblical Truths of Election and Pre-destination are very familiar to all competent students of the Scriptures.

I suggest that you will make much better use of your time by a comprehensive detailed study of ALL of the Scriptures because until you have obtained a practical working knowledge of ALL of the Scriptures, It is futile for you to write about the Scriptures, for to do so is to continue to expose your ignorance of basic Bible Truths.


Now again, my eyes and belief and desire have been set toward the Salvation of all, it is a mindset, and it’s all in this scripture. Jesus holds the power to subject all things to himself. Now why in the name of sanity and reason people think he will NOT use that power to subject all people to him, IN THE FUTURE, not the past, is beyond me. People don’t WANT him to use it, because that’s what kind of hearts they have, and desires they have. They want heaven all to themselves, so they search the scriptures to find support for that limited greedy mindset.


You still haven’t realised that it is GOD, I repeat, GOD Himself Who has limited the practical extent of salvation, and He has done so from before Creation. This fact is clearly and specifically stated in the Scriptures, but of this fundamental fact you are obviously quite unaware.

You seem to be so fanatically obsessed with your personal fantasy of “universal salvation” that, despite the clear explicit evidence of the Scriptures, and despite my repeated pointing out to you the numerous specific statements in the Scriptures by Christ and His Apostles which obviously contradict and categorically deny your theory of “universal salvation,” the very clear message of the Scriptures remains hidden from your mind and heart.

In short, you’ve blinkered and blinded yourself. Your obsession with your pet theory of “universal salvation” has come between you and the very clear truths of GOD’s Word-His Scriptures.


Now, over to something Jesus said that even believers in him, do not believe. This is a personal prophecy from Jesus that is clearly him stating that he will save everyone. In John 12:32, "And if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." I guess Christians figure Jesus was just talking in symbols or just running his mouth or something. He was referring to his crucifixion, his death. And again, he did NOT mean he would draw all men to him right after he died, or 1,000 years after he died, he gave NO timetable as to when this would occur. So it must be future tense. But Jesus PROMISED universal salvation for everyone right there.


Firstly, although most English translations express John 12:32 as "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to me, “yet the word “men” is not in the original New Testament Greek manuscripts. A transliteration of the New Testament Greek MSS reads: “And I if I am lifted out of the earth, all will draw to myself.”

You will surely have already noticed that John 12:32 does * NOT * state: “And I, if I am lifted out of the earth, I will draw to myself every individual person of the entire human race in all generations from Adam and Eve until the end of the world without any exception whatsoever.”

Yet, even though John 12:32 does not say this, yet you have presumptuously and without the slightest attempt on your part to consider John 12:32 in the context of ALL of the Scriptures, you have decided to assume that, in your opinion, the word “all” in John 12:32 must only mean” every human being ever to have existed since Creation. But the Scriptures - which you persistently refuse to thoroughly consult to the Scriptures as a whole for the purpose of testing and proving whether your opinions are accurate and Biblical – and it is the Scriptures which explicitly and repeatedly contradict and refute your totally unsubstantiated theories and opinions.

In Matthew 7:22-23, Christ speaks concerning the end-times. He says:
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name we have cast out devils? and in Thy Name we have done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you workers of iniquity.”

In Matthew 7:22-23, Christ explicitly states that He will reject all workers of iniquity and order them to “Depart from Me!”

Again, in Christ’s parable of the sheep and the goats in the end-timed [Matthew 25:31-46], Christ speaks concerning His final separation of the good people from the evil-doers. In respect of the evil-doers, Christ will say you them:
Matthew 25:41 –
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you accursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So in respect of the word “all” in John 12:32, it is obvious from the Scriptures that this word “all” will not include those evil-doers and workers of iniquity whom Christ commands “Depart from Me!”

In other words, it’s very obvious that Christ will * not & draw those people to Himself whom He has already promised to order to depart from Him!

Thus, the word “all” in John 12:32 refers exclusively to those whom God has chosen to be His adopted children of GOD [Ephesians 1:5] i.e. al of His elect and pre-destinated people whom GOD the Father chose from before Creation to be brought to salvation in Christ [2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:3-11; Romans 8:28-39, etc.]

Therefore your assumption that the word “all” in John 12:32 can only mean everyone of the entire human race is contrary to Christ’s will, unScriptural, therefore false.


Eventually every human will be enlightened, John 1:9. Every single human being will come to know the truth, and be converted.


Since we know from Matthew 7:22-23 and Matthew 25:41 [see above] that Christ will condemn all evil-doers and workers of iniquity to everlasting punishment, your fantasy of “universal salvation” is clearly shown to be opposed to the clearly-expressed will of GOD and contrary to the express will of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This means that you are deliberately and persistently misrepresenting GOD and Christ, which is a transgression of GOD’s Commandments, which is sin, and the wages of sin is death [Romans 6:23].

Therefore, if you wish to escape GOD’s righteous condemnation, you should abandon your unBiblical and heretical theory of “universal salvation” because the Scriptures clearly prove it to be a falsehood.


Now I understand that this literally sickens some Christians to hear this, and I offer my condolences to your feelings.


You’re mistaken.
What is more to the point as far as you are concerned is that GOD hates all those who promote heresies such as “universal salvation” and who thereby misrepresent GOD, and also misrepresent Christ, and also misrepresent GOD’s Scriptures. Therefore take heed and renouince your errrors before it is too late.

Michael T.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Michael T.;

Therefore, if you wish to escape GOD’s righteous condemnation, you should abandon your unBiblical and heretical theory of “universal salvation” because the Scriptures clearly prove it to be a falsehood.



You’re mistaken.
What is more to the point as far as you are concerned is that GOD hates all those who promote heresies such as “universal salvation” and who thereby misrepresent GOD, and also misrepresent Christ, and also misrepresent GOD’s Scriptures. Therefore take heed and renouince your errrors before it is too late.

Michael T.[/QUOTE]




There is no such thing as being " Too late for Salvation." I am inclinded to hear the words of Salvation, not the threats of fear. I hear Gods message in Hebrews 2:9, " That Jesus tasted death for everyone", not just those he called out as firstfruits. Because it was " Fitting for God", from whom is ALL things, and through whom is all things, to bring many sons to glory, not just a few. Jesus was perfected to be the complette Author of our Salvation. So I take no concern about escaping damnation, none at all, because what Jesus did is perfect, and we will be saved perfectly.

I like the thinking expressed in verse 3, how shall we escape if we neglect so GREAT A SALVATION? What great Salvation? Why Universal Salvation, THAT is great, far greater than this fearful limited Salvation that many are preaching. Look at verse 1, we are admonished to pay CLOSER attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. And thats the problem right there. Modernday men have heard a gospel that was already messed up, what we inherited was already false and lies mixed with some truth.

Notice Jeremiah 16:19; " Our Fathers have inherited nothing but lies or falsehood, futility and things of no profit." Imagine a man who converses with me, and ask me to turn away from my belief. I believe in the Salvation of all humanity, he believes in the salvation of only a few, it would be absolutely ignorant of me to turn in my hopes, and embrase his. But thats what men are doing, asking you to believe in limited atonement, so that you can escape Gods wrath. Its just unbelivable. Its no way I am going back to falsehood, I am not that stupid. I willnot turn away from the Truth first delivered.

Now then, notice I never, and never will tell others what to do with their belief, nor will I condemn them or threaten them, I am free of that, because I already know they will be with God.

Notice Luke 3:6;"All Flesh shall see the Salvation of God." This is universal, it is garenteed, it is the Truth, and it is in Gods word. Everyone shall see, or comprehend, or understand the Salvation of God. You think God is going to let them see it, only to place them into condemnation? What kind of mind and heart do you think God has? Well those who condemn think that God is like they are, willing to condemn and willing to perish humanity to evil punishment.

God is not willing that ANY would perish, more over, he HAS NOT WILLIED that any would perish, but that ALL come to repentance.

Peace.

[Michael T.]

mickiel,


There is no such thing as being "Too late for Salvation."


You’re mistaken.
Hebrews 9:27 very clearly states that after death comes not salvation by GOD’s Judgment:
“And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, BUT AFTER THIS the judgment” [Hebrews 9:27].

Thus, it is very clear that if is the will of GOD that a person is to be brought to salvation, it will occur in this present span of existence; or not at all.


I am inclined to hear the words of Salvation


You’re mistaken.
All that you hear are your universalistic opinions which are acting as a barrier between you and the truths of Scriptures.


I hear God’s message in Hebrews 2:9, “That Jesus tasted death for everyone", not just those he called out as first fruits.


You’re mistaken.
You’re simplistically assuming that “everyone” can only mean the entire human race but if that were so, Christ would have suffered and died in vain for all the Billions of people who have already died in unbelief and sin and have thus gone to Hell.

And if Christ died for everyone of the entire human race including those whom GOD has already sent to Hell to pay the just penalty for their sins, that would mean that God requires a DOUBLE PENALTY from those people in Hell; ONCE - according to you – by Christ on the cross, and AGAIN, a SECOND TIME, from those people in Hell.

Thus, your utopian opinion that Christ died on behalf of everyone of the entire human race - and it is no more than that; only your mere unsubstantiated OPINION – portrays the Holy Righteous GOD as an cruel and unjust tyrannical despot!

Thus, by your absurd theory of “universal salvation,” you are slandering and blaspheming the LORD God.

If you had respect for GOD’s Scriptures and a genuine desire for the Truths of GOD’s Word – but you do not - you would have carefully considered Hebrews 2:9 in its context. Had you done so, you would have discovered what all competent students of the Scriptures over the last 2,000 years have known, which is that Christ tasted death on behalf of “they who are sanctified” [Hebrews 2:11], that He died for those whom He, i.e. Christ, calls His “brethren” [Hebrews 2:11-12; Hebrews 3:12], that Christ tasted death for “the children whom GOD has given to me” [Hebrews 2:13; John 6:44; John 6:54], that Christ tasted death for His “holy brethren” [Hebrews 3:1], and for the “partakers of the heavenly calling” [Hebrews 3:1], that Christ tasted death for people whom GOD has brought to repentance and faith” [Hebrews 6:1], and that Christ tasted death for members of Christ’s Church of believers [Hebrews 6:10.

Now, mickiel, answer me *This:
Is every individual person of the entire human race sanctified, called by God, brought to repentance and saving Faith in Christ, a member of Christ’s Church of elect believers in Christ, a partaker of the heavenly calling, given to Christ by GOD the Father, called a brother by Christ?
Only a fool or a liar would answer “Yes.”

Tell me mickiel, I am curious as to why you persistently refuse to always consider individual Scripture verses and phrases in their local contexts, and in the context of ALL of the Scriptures?
Is it because you’re lazy; is it because you’re afraid that your fancy theory of “universal salvation” will be exposed for what it is; a falsehood, is it because you have a literacy problem, or do you have a problem in concentrated study, or a type of dyslexia-related disorder?
Please comment.


Because it was " Fitting for God", from whom is ALL things, and through whom is all things, to bring many sons to glory, not just a few. Jesus was perfected to be the complete Author of our Salvation. So I take no concern about escaping damnation, none at all, because what Jesus did is perfect, and we will be saved perfectly.


You’re mistaken.
Hebrews 9:27 proves that if you’re not brought to salvation in this present life, you never will be.

Hebrews 9:27 very clearly states that after death comes not salvation by GOD’s Judgment:
“And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, BUT AFTER THIS the judgment” [Hebrews 9:27].

And try as you may, but the word “Many” does NOT mean “every individual person of the entire human race in all generations from Creation until the end of the world, without any exception whatsoever.”


I like the thinking expressed in verse 3, how shall we escape if we neglect so GREAT A SALVATION? What great Salvation? Why Universal Salvation, THAT is great, far greater than this fearful limited Salvation that many are preaching.


You’re mistaken.
Your comment is yet more evidence of your ability to make highly imaginative guesses which of course, are intended to support your fancy theory of “universal salvation.”

The word “great” in Hebrews 2:3 is qualitative; not quantitative.

There’s nothing “fearful” about Definite Atonement. On the contrary, the basic Bible Truth of Definite Atonement testifies that Christ is the Sure and Certain Saviour of all of GOD’s elect and pre-destinated people, in that all whom GOD the Father chose from before Creation to be brought to salvation in Christ, NOT ONE is ever lost; alll without any exception are kept safe by the irresistible grace of GOD; all without any exception are raised to eternal glory at the last day by Christ.
And I have this on Christ’s Personal Divine authority.
As it is written:
Gospel of John 6:39 -
“And THIS is the Father's will Who has sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given to Me, that I should lose NONE, but that I should raise them up again at the last day.”
Gospel of John 6:44 -
“No man can come to Me unless the Father Who has sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

By contrast, the false fictitious “christ” of “universal salvation” is incompetent because he/it suffers and dies in vain in respect of the many billions of people who are already in Hell and the many more billions who will be sent there because of their unbelief and sin.

Your problem is that you reject the absolute sovereignty of GOD; and in particular, GOD’s Absolute Sovereignty in salvation. You resent and you reject GOD’s Absolute Sovereignty to choose many to be brought to salvation but in that process, to reject many others, as He has in fact done, as is clearly testified in His Scriptures.

Please consult your dictionary and compare the definition of the word “Exegesis” with the definition of the word “Eisegesis.” You are an expert in “Eisegesis” but you are totally incompetent is “Exegesis.”

“Eisegesis” – in which you specialise - is worthless, but “Exegesis” – which requires a total commitment to the Scriptures as GOD’s Truth, is of great and enduring value.

Mickiel, you need to stop eisegeting, and start exegeting.
Until then, you will continue to misrepresent GOD, you will continue to misrepresent Christ, and you will continue to misrepresent GOD’s Scriptures.


Look at verse 1; we are admonished to pay CLOSER attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. And that’s the problem right there.


The day that you begin to practice what you preach; i.e. to pay CLOSER attention to ALL the Scriptures; not just to isolated words and hacked-out phrases of Scripture, will be the day when you see your theory of “universal salvation” for what it actually is: a load of drivel.


Modern-day men have heard a gospel that was already messed up, what we inherited was already false and lies mixed with some truth.


The false “gospel” taught by Modern-day men is your absurd and fallacious theory of “universal salvation.”


Imagine a man who converses with me, and ask me to turn away from my belief. I believe in the Salvation of all humanity, he believes in the salvation of only a few,


!! “Only a few??
Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that salvation is restricted to “only a few!”
From where did you dredge your idea that God has chosen to save “only a few”??
Certainly not from the Bible. It’s no wonder you’re so bitter & twisted.

Your foolish and ignorant idea that the number of GOD’s elect people is “only a few” AND your absurd theory of “universal salvation” are what the prophet Jeremiah would describe as: " . . . nothing but lies or falsehood, futility and things of no profit" [Jeremiah 16:19].

The Scriptures teach that GOD the Father has chosen to save a * VAST * number of people; as many as there are stars in the sky [Genesis 15:1-5]; MORE in number than all the individual grains of sand on all the sea-shores of the world [Hebrews 11:12]; too large in number for any human to count [Revelation 7:9].

Are THESE descriptions of the extent of GOD’s elect and pre-destinated people what you, mickiel, consider to be “only a few”?? Answer me!

I am amazed that you are so abysmally ignorant of the Scriptures as to not be aware of the above three passages, which repeatedly portray the immense extent of GOD’s Elect and Pre-destinated people!

I am also disappointed that you are wasting your time in hacking out isolated words and phrases from the Scriptures in a futile attempt to “prove” your absurd theory of “universal salvation” and, in that process, try to force the Scriptures say what they certainly do NOT, when you could be putting your time to profitable use by methodically studying the entire Bible from Genesis through Revelation, and in that process, dispelling your obvious ignorance of the Scriptures.


. . . it would be absolutely ignorant of me to turn in my hopes, and embrace his. But that’s what men are doing, asking you to believe in limited atonement, so that you can escape Gods wrath. Its just unbelievable. It's no way I am going back to falsehood, I am not that stupid. I will not turn away from the Truth first delivered.


Since you have shown us that you are ignorant of the Scriptures, it Therefore follows that you must be and are ignorant of the Faith once delivered to the people of GOD [Jude 3], and also ignorant of the truths of salvation in Christ.


Notice Luke 3:6;"All Flesh shall see the Salvation of God." This is universal, it is guaranteed, it is the Truth, and it is in Gods word.


Luke 3:6 is a citation of Isaiah 40:5 -
“And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

Thus the term in Luke 3:6 - “the salvation of God” is a synonym for Christ Himself because through His incarnation, He displays the glory of GOD [Isaiah 40:7].

It’s a mistake to assume that Luke 3:6 speaks of “universal salvation” because, as I’ve already pointed out, numerous Scripture passages conclusively prove that God justly condemns many people to eternal punishment, including “those who pierced Him” [i.e. Christ] as described in Revelation 1:7 [below].
Revelation 1:7 -
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”


Everyone shall see, or comprehend, or understand the Salvation of God. You think God is going to let them see it, only to place them into condemnation? What kind of mind and heart do you think God has?


I’ve already referred you to John 5:29 in which Christ described the two end-time resurrections; a resurrection of GOD’s elect people unto eternal glory, AND another resurrection for the unbelievers who, Christ tells us, will be condemned to punishment.

Thus, your insistence on “universal salvation” implies that Christ is a Liar, but since Christ is the Truth [John 14:6] the liar is not Christ, but the people who promote the UnBiblical theory of “universal salvation.”


Those who condemn think that God is like they are, willing to condemn and willing to perish humanity to evil punishment.


For specific Biblical proof that GOD does indeed condemn the ungodly, study the following Scriptures:

Revelation 20:15 -
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 21:8 -
“But the cowards, and the unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 -
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When Christ shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

Matthew 7:22-23 -
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name have done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Matthew 25:30 –
“Cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:31-32 -
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:

- followed by . . . .

Matthew 25:34 & Matthew 25:46 -
[41] “And he shall say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you accursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

[46] “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Also note Jude 13 -
[People who are like] “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Thus the Scriptures prove you to be totally mistaken and a false witness, because GOD and Christ both DO condemn ungodly people to eternal punishment.


God is not willing that ANY would perish, more over, he HAS NOT WILLED that any would perish, but that ALL come to repentance.


This is another example of your incompetence and deceit.
You have deliberately evaded quoting the entire verse of 2 Peter 3:9 and thus you distort what the Apostle is saying.

Below is the ENTIRE verse of 2 Peter 3:9 -
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering TOWARDS US, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

A question for you, mickiel: WHO are the “US” to whom the Apostle Peter refers in 2 Peter 3:9 when he says “towards US”?
But as is to be expected of you, you have not checked the Second Letter of Peter to see to whom his letter was addressed and this omission is yet more evidence of your utter incompetence in handling the Scriptures.

The answer to this question is discovered by studying the Second Letter of Peter, which of course you were too lazy and incompetent and slip-shod to do.

In 2 Peter 1:1 w see that the Apostle is addressing, NOT the entire human race, but only Believers in Christ:
“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them WHO HAVE OBTAINED LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH through the righteousness of God.”

Elsewhere in the Apostle’s Second Letter, it is evident on numerous occasions that the Apostle is addressing himself to regenerate believers in Christ, but not to the entire human race.

A similar situation applies in respect of the Apostle Peter’s First Letter in which we see in 1 Peter 1:1-2 that the Apostle is addressing, NOT the entire human race, but only the elect and regenerated people of GOD:
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Thus it is obvious that in 2 Peter 3:9, the Apostle is telling GOD's elect people, but NOT the entire human race, that it is the will of God that not one of Hs elect people should perish but that all of them will be assuredly brought to eternal salvation in Christ. In saying this, the Apostle Peter is In effect reiterating Christ’s statements in the Gospel of John 6:39 and 6:44.

Thus, your universalistic spin on 2 Peter 3:9 is proven to be false, and as such, yet more evidence that you repeatedly prostitute GOD’s Scriptures to your own deluded and deceitful purposes.
You should be totally ashamed of yourself.

Michael T.

[mickiel]

mickiel,

Now, mickiel, answer me *This:
Is every individual person of the entire human race sanctified, called by God, brought to repentance and saving Faith in Christ, a member of Christ’s Church of elect believers in Christ, a partaker of the heavenly calling, given to Christ by GOD the Father, called a brother by Christ?
Only a fool or a liar would answer “Yes.”

Tell me mickiel, I am curious as to why you persistently refuse to always consider individual Scripture verses and phrases in their local contexts, and in the context of ALL of the Scriptures?
Is it because you’re lazy; is it because you’re afraid that your fancy theory of “universal salvation” will be exposed for what it is; a falsehood, is it because you have a literacy problem, or do you have a problem in concentrated study, or a type of dyslexia-related disorder?
Please comment.

Michael T.



I don't mind commenting, but I am requesting that you refrain from slandering my person, and keep such things to yourself. I am asking that you keep your insults about my characther to yourself, If you do not do this, then I will no longer respond to you. I am not into attacking and insulting people, but I will dispute their beliefs. That being said;


Very few people have already been santified by God, as I also believe very few have been called as of yet. The total rehabilitation of humanity is yet to come, but it will. And I have many scriptures that give me this belief, but first I want your apology for your insults about me, only then will I continue with you.

Peace.

[Michael T.]

mickiel,


Very few people have already been santified by God, as I also believe very few have been called as of yet. The total rehabilitation of humanity is yet to come, but it will.


You’re mistaken.
Not a shred of Biblical proof exists in support of your idea of ultimate total rehabilitation of the entire human race. On the contrary, I have already pointed you to abundant evidence in the Scriptures that shows your theory to be contrary to the will of GOD and contrary to the teachings of Christ and His Apostles.

And since the Apostle Paul declares in the Second Letter to Timothy
that the number of God’s elect people is known to God alone, you have no basis whatsoever for your view that very few people have been called and sanctified by God.

If you wish to hold such obviously fictitious ideas, that is your choice, but desist from manipulating and prostituting God’s Holy Word-His Scriptures to promote your fallacious agenda.

As for apologies, what * IS * required is your apology for your persistent and offensive practices of deliberately skewing and manipulating God’s Scriptures to force them to say what they do NOT say; and of insisting that the Scriptures say that which is contradicted by the testimony of the Scriptures as a whole; which objectionable and deceitful practices thereby imply that the Scriptures are internally-contradictory and inconsistent, and that God and His prophets and Christ and His Apostles are double-minded and outright liars!

As well, you must promise that in future, you will always demonstrate a respect for the Scriptures and their Divine Author by always observing the necessary policy of competent Biblical exegesis of always carefully considering all individual verses and portions of Scripture (1) in their respective local contexts AND (2) in the context of ALL of the Scriptures, before you decide upon any view or conclusion.

Unless you comply with these two requirements, I can see no purpose in my continuing to dialog with you.

Michael T.

[mickiel]

mickiel,



You’re mistaken.
Not a shred of Biblical proof exists in support of your idea of ultimate total rehabilitation of the entire human race. On the contrary, I have already pointed you to abundant evidence in the Scriptures that shows your theory to be contrary to the will of GOD and contrary to the teachings of Christ and His Apostles.

And since the Apostle Paul declares in the Second Letter to Timothy
that the number of God’s elect people is known to God alone, you have no basis whatsoever for your view that very few people have been called and sanctified by God.

If you wish to hold such obviously fictitious ideas, that is your choice, but desist from manipulating and prostituting God’s Holy Word-His Scriptures to promote your fallacious agenda.

As for apologies, what * IS * required is your apology for your persistent and offensive practices of deliberately skewing and manipulating God’s Scriptures to force them to say what they do NOT say; and of insisting that the Scriptures say that which is contradicted by the testimony of the Scriptures as a whole; which objectionable and deceitful practices thereby imply that the Scriptures are internally-contradictory and inconsistent, and that God and His prophets and Christ and His Apostles are double-minded and outright liars!

As well, you must promise that in future, you will always demonstrate a respect for the Scriptures and their Divine Author by always observing the necessary policy of competent Biblical exegesis of always carefully considering all individual verses and portions of Scripture (1) in their respective local contexts AND (2) in the context of ALL of the Scriptures, before you decide upon any view or conclusion.

Unless you comply with these two requirements, I can see no purpose in my continuing to dialog with you.

Michael T.


Since you have refused to offer your apoligy for your attacks on my personage, then I will no longer respond to you. But I will continue to express what I believe, and I can do so with scripture, and without the ignorance of attacking people personally. I live by what I believe, and I see no reason to slander anyones personage. I am surprised that the moderators have allowed you to do so to me, but I understand that also.

Peace then to you on your journey.

[Michael T.]

mickiel,

People such as yourself who, in spite of abundant certain proofs of the blatant falsity of their deluded belief, nevertheless stubbornly insist that black is white, must always expect to experience other people’s highly-justifiable frustration at such obstinate pig-headedness.

[JackC]

Yes. Although few can See.

Ephesians 1: 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery* of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight."

*All things must first go through the Fire.

[mickiel]

Yes. Although few can See.

Ephesians 1: 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery* of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight."

*All things must first go through the Fire.



Greetings JackC,

Babies have no pride, only a need to nurish. And the need can be quite intense. This is what God will do yo you. He will break the Pride you have in your power, and show you that you really have no power, and you will know that you NEED God. You will know how messed up you are, and know that you are totally dependant on him. And thats part of the Fire we must go through.

The baptism of the destruction of self pride. We take pride in our lives, pride in our religion, and pride in our knowledge. Often while posting, people are really just paradeing their knowledge. Putting what they know on display, they really are not trying to help others. How can we know this, because after only a few days of you not agreeing with them, they will turn on you and knaw at you personally, and have the nerve to think its Gods will that they do such a thing. This is what pride in your knowledge will do to you, it will make you condemn others.

Babies don't condemn people, they just learn from them.

One of the greatest lessons I have learned, is that my ambiblical cord is not connected to people, I do not need to draw from them, or condemn them.

Peace.

[JackC]

One of the greatest lessons I have learned, is that my ambiblical cord is not connected to people, I do not need to draw from them, or condemn them.

Peace.

There is great insight in this observation, mickiel.

This is the root of sin - feeding ourselves off of others - through theirs and our negative (and positive) emotions.

This is what sustains the principalities and minions of evil in the heavenly realms - their 'umbilical cords' into willing, ignorant humans in incarnation, sustaining themselves through our emotional reactions, and spurring us to instigate and feed from the emotional reactions of others'.

Those who work to 'get' emotional reactions from others are serving evil.



Jack

[mickiel]

There is great insight in this observation, mickiel.

This is the root of sin - feeding ourselves off of others - through theirs and our negative (and positive) emotions.

This is what sustains the principalities and minions of evil in the heavenly realms - their 'umbilical cords' into willing, ignorant humans in incarnation, sustaining themselves through our emotional reactions, and spurring us to instigate and feed from the emotional reactions of others'.

Those who work to 'get' emotional reactions from others are serving evil.



Jack




I purposely use the term " Biblical Cord", because I view the bible as my connection to God, as would any believer. But we all see differently, some think that is because we are on different levels, I disagree with that. There is only one level when you deal with God, that be the learning level. There is no such thing as " Advanced Spirituality".

There is no such thing as an " Advanced Church", or advanced knowledge. Where humanity is concerned, we all are just babies, nothing more, but nothingless. BUT, we are the children of God himself. So belief in God is not Limited to any particular human belief, there is no true human Church. And God has yet to call out his endtime church.

This comming endtime church, will be NOTHING like any human church now, or ever.

Nothing like any who now claim to be. And I am going to go into some scriptures that show what this Church will look like, and you will know that no church on earth today ressembles it.

Peace.

[JackC]

I purposely use the term " Biblical Cord", because I view the bible as my connection to God, as would any believer. But we all see differently, some think that is because we are on different levels, I disagree with that. There is only one level when you deal with God, that be the learning level. There is no such thing as " Advanced Spirituality".

There is no such thing as an " Advanced Church", or advanced knowledge. Where humanity is concerned, we all are just babies, nothing more, but nothingless. BUT, we are the children of God himself. So belief in God is not Limited to any particular human belief, there is no true human Church. And God has yet to call out his endtime church.

This comming endtime church, will be NOTHING like any human church now, or ever.

Nothing like any who now claim to be. And I am going to go into some scriptures that show what this Church will look like, and you will know that no church on earth today ressembles it.

Peace.

I wept at these words, mickiel.

The church that has been promised is indeed like nothing ever before seen in the physical. I look forward to the scriptures you are seeking

Humanity has become so lost, that now even right understanding is being sought and received erroneously. The purpose of knowledge is for our emptying - as what is false is revealed we are called to repent, to let go, to empty ourselves.

There is a saying, once all that is false has fallen away, all that will remain is Truth.

Instead though, instead of repenting, humanity uses knowledge to further clothe themselves, to further burden themselves with rags.

Mankind still cannot bear to be naked.

One can always recognize another lover of Truth - they will use knowledge to empty themselves of what is false - greater knowledge leading to greater repentance, instead of using knowledge to prove themselves right and others wrong.

Peace to you, mickiel.



Jack

[mickiel]

In the book of Revelations, chapters 2-3, Seven pictures of different stages of Gods church are revealed, and hardly any of them look good. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamun, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. All but one are in pituful shape. In this is a great lesson , as to what God is doing and has done. All of them, but possibly one, are basically out of touch with God. They are the true history of what God has been doing if you are wondering has he called anyone over the years of human history. Before I give a Scriptorial view of what Gods Church to come will look like, let me first give my view of what it now looks like.

I believe we are now in the stage of Laodicea, the Church in its final stage of Apostasy. Notice Rev. 3:14-19;" And to the Angel of the church in Laodicea write; The Amen, the Faithful and TRUE WITNESS, the beginning of the Creation of God, says this: I know your deeds, you are neither hot nor cold, so because you are lukewarm, I spit you out of my mouth." This is a church of God, and he is spitting them out of his mouth, in other words, they do NOT speak for him.

Vs.17, Because you say, " I am rich and have become wealthy and have need of nothing", you do not KNOW, ( so they are decieved, they don't even know their own condition) They are really wretched and miserable and poor and BLIND and naked. And this is Jesus describing HIS church at this stage. Notice how much the discription of this church ressembles a prosperity ministry, a wave that is sweeping the country now.

This church is highly self sufficent and proud, yet they are not satisfied. Read Isaiah 56:9-12. The watchmen of this church are blind, all of them know nothing. They are greedy and not staisfied and have all turned to their OWN way, each one to unjust gain, to the last one of them. Their hearts are TRAINED in greed, 2Pet.2: 3, 14. And this is a CHURCH of GOD! THese are Gods people. And this is Jesus describing them.

Look at Rev.3:20, Listen to Jesus speaking to HIS Church, and notice his position he is standing in; " Behold I stand at the door and Knock." Jesus is on the OUTSIDE, and knocking to get in. He is not IN this Church. These people will have to learn that they cannot serve God and Money, Matt.6:24.

Take a look at all these church eras, look at the shape they were in. Thats if you want to see the truth. These churchs have NOT done Gods will, and I will get into why later.

I think the Church of Philadelphia is the only good example in the group. And I will go into how they look in scripture.

Peace.

[JackC]

In the book of Revelations, chapters 2-3, Seven pictures of different stages of Gods church are revealed, and hardly any of them look good. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamun, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. All but one are in pituful shape. In this is a great lesson , as to what God is doing and has done. All of them, but possibly one, are basically out of touch with God. They are the true history of what God has been doing if you are wondering has he called anyone over the years of human history. Before I give a Scriptorial view of what Gods Church to come will look like, let me first give my view of what it now looks like.

I believe we are now in the stage of Laodicea, the Church in its final stage of Apostasy. Notice Rev. 3:14-19;" And to the Angel of the church in Laodicea write; The Amen, the Faithful and TRUE WITNESS, the beginning of the Creation of God, says this: I know your deeds, you are neither hot nor cold, so because you are lukewarm, I spit you out of my mouth." This is a church of God, and he is spitting them out of his mouth, in other words, they do NOT speak for him.

Vs.17, Because you say, " I am rich and have become wealthy and have need of nothing", you do not KNOW, ( so they are decieved, they don't even know their own condition) They are really wretched and miserable and poor and BLIND and naked. And this is Jesus describing HIS church at this stage. Notice how much the discription of this church ressembles a prosperity ministry, a wave that is sweeping the country now.

This church is highly self sufficent and proud, yet they are not satisfied. Read Isaiah 56:9-12. The watchmen of this church are blind, all of them know nothing. They are greedy and not staisfied and have all turned to their OWN way, each one to unjust gain, to the last one of them. Their hearts are TRAINED in greed, 2Pet.2: 3, 14. And this is a CHURCH of GOD! THese are Gods people. And this is Jesus describing them.

Look at Rev.3:20, Listen to Jesus speaking to HIS Church, and notice his position he is standing in; " Behold I stand at the door and Knock." Jesus is on the OUTSIDE, and knocking to get in. He is not IN this Church. These people will have to learn that they cannot serve God and Money, Matt.6:24.

Take a look at all these church eras, look at the shape they were in. Thats if you want to see the truth. These churchs have NOT done Gods will, and I will get into why later.

I think the Church of Philadelphia is the only good example in the group. And I will go into how they look in scripture.

Peace.

Good Morning, mickiel,

I have heard various interpretations of these verses in Revelation, and none of them speak well for the self-proclaimed present day church.

Your words here, mickiel, caused something to stick in my mind - at this point in history the churches of the world were lost! And if the churches of this world were already lost in 100 AD, then how arrogant, blind, and foolish are we to think that they somehow found their way and are tools of Christ 1900 years later!

Always, always, anything true in this world is eventually corrupted by the darkness that is in control. The father of this world, the lord of this world rules and eventually corrupts all things true and good. Just look how the angels at Lot's were treated, just look at what happened to Israel, and if one thinks that something changed when Jesus was born, and the modern day self-proclaimed followers of Jesus are somehow protected, we have these words in Revelation to show us otherwise - those initially spurred forward by the works of Jesus, were already lost 100 years later!

Those calling themselves Christan today are humans - still subject to the darkness of the world in which they live, just like Israel. They are no better and just as vulnerable to evil and contamination by evil as was Israel, and have been victims of evil and deceived as well.

This lesson was very difficult for me, mickiel. I certainly did not want to hear. I sat in church for a year, arguing with God over the apostasy of modern day Christianity, not wanting to see, not wanting it to be so, until one day I could no longer be a part of it and had to get up and walk out.

To love Truth more than anything - more than one's friends and ones' church, even one's family, is a most difficult path to walk, but this is the one Christ calls us to walk.

Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world, and those of his church, those of the 'called out ones' are not of this world either.

57 Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, “Lord, I will follow You wherever You go.”
58 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”
59 Then He said to another, “Follow Me.”
But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”
60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”
61 And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”
62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

3 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

One just needs to compare the present day church with how Jesus described what was at stake in following him to realize that he is indeed outside the door of the modern-day church, knocking.

Although we agree, our words will be mostly ignored, for all this has been explained away by human reasoning, allowing millions calling themselves Christian - or of any religious or spiritual affiliation - to remain in darkness.



Jack

[mickiel]

Good Morning, mickiel,


Although we agree, our words will be mostly ignored, for all this has been explained away by human reasoning, allowing millions calling themselves Christian - or of any religious or spiritual affiliation - to remain in darkness.



Jack


Very well written.

These things are so, because the Darkness IS the Light that men have in their belief and religions. And they cannot see this.

Notice Jesus in Matthew 6:23;" But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of the Darkness. If therefore the Light that is in you is Darkness, How Great Is the Darkness!"

The Light that men hold to and are led by is really the Darkness masgerading as the Light. satan has Appeared as the Light and distorded the doctrines of men. It is he who is drawing the people into these churchs, and his Darkness is indeed great.

All of this is the undisputed will of God unfolding on earth. Nothing will alter it, nothing will stop it, nothing will change it, and all of that is contained within scripture. The Darkness covers the earth because it is Gods will, the root system of the Darkness was planted in the garden of Eden. In Isaiah 25:7;" And on this mountain he will swallow up the " Covering which is over ALL Peoples", even the VEIL which is Stretched over ALL Nations." This is the power of the Darkness and its influence has covered the earth, this is why ALL men have sinned and cannot see God properly.

This is why we have inherited foolishness in our religions, the Lying Pen of the Scribes has made Gods Truth into a Lie, Jeremiah 8:8. Men think they have free will and that God has led them to their churchs, not knowing that a mans way is not in himself, or his will to think, they believe free will has directed their path, Jeremiah 10:23.

The influence of the Darkness has long ago penertrated churchs, even Gods church, as you have noted. Notice Jeremiah 23: 11, God himself speaking;" For both Prophet and Priest are Polluted; Even in MY HOUSE I have found their wickedness", declares the Lord. Notice vs.16, Interesting what God says about the preaching of these self annointed " Spiritual Leaders", They are leading you into futility, they Speak a VISION of their OWN Imagination! The great preachers of this world are preaching from theology formulated by their own imaginations, and leading people futher into the Darkness that looks like the Light.

It is no wonder then that when they see truth, they see, but in seeing they do not see, and they react to it as if its blasphemey, because it looks nothing like their " Light super imposed by the Darkness." God didnot send these prophets, vs.21, but the people are convinced that their pastors are sent by God. They trust IN their pastors. And the people really don't know any better, they really do not know what they are believing.

The comming Church of God will be VASTLY different than this. These truly annointed people will be able to spot deception and pull it out of thin air, they will see it as plain as day, the Darkness willNOT lead them. And these people will be totally dependant on God, NOT a pastor, and the Holy Spirit will lead them individually, they will have come out of this world of religion.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[JackC]

Very well written.

These things are so, because the Darkness IS the Light that men have in their belief and religions. And they cannot see this.

Notice Jesus in Matthew 6:23;" But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of the Darkness. If therefore the Light that is in you is Darkness, How Great Is the Darkness!"

The Light that men hold to and are led by is really the Darkness masgerading as the Light. satan has Appeared as the Light and distorded the doctrines of men. It is he who is drawing the people into these churchs, and his Darkness is indeed great.

All of this is the undisputed will of God unfolding on earth. Nothing will alter it, nothing will stop it, nothing will change it, and all of that is contained within scripture. The Darkness covers the earth because it is Gods will, the root system of the Darkness was planted in the garden of Eden. In Isaiah 25:7;" And on this mountain he will swallow up the " Covering which is over ALL Peoples", even the VEIL which is Stretched over ALL Nations." This is the power of the Darkness and its influence has covered the earth, this is why ALL men have sinned and cannot see God properly.

This is why we have inherited foolishness in our religions, the Lying Pen of the Scribes has made Gods Truth into a Lie, Jeremiah 8:8. Men think they have free will and that God has led them to their churchs, not knowing that a mans way is not in himself, or his will to think, they believe free will has directed their path, Jeremiah 10:23.

The influence of the Darkness has long ago penertrated churchs, even Gods church, as you have noted. Notice Jeremiah 23: 11, God himself speaking;" For both Prophet and Priest are Polluted; Even in MY HOUSE I have found their wickedness", declares the Lord. Notice vs.16, Interesting what God says about the preaching of these self annointed " Spiritual Leaders", They are leading you into futility, they Speak a VISION of their OWN Imagination! The great preachers of this world are preaching from theology formulated by their own imaginations, and leading people futher into the Darkness that looks like the Light.

It is no wonder then that when they see truth, they see, but in seeing they do not see, and they react to it as if its blasphemey, because it looks nothing like their " Light super imposed by the Darkness." God didnot send these prophets, vs.21, but the people are convinced that their pastors are sent by God. They trust IN their pastors. And the people really don't know any better, they really do not know what they are believing.

The comming Church of God will be VASTLY different than this. These truly annointed people will be able to spot deception and pull it out of thin air, they will see it as plain as day, the Darkness willNOT lead them. And these people will be totally dependant on God, NOT a pastor, and the Holy Spirit will lead them individually, they will have come out of this world of religion.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.


Your words carry the energy of Truth, the Spirit of Truth.

Indeed the light of men is Darkness. Some call this luciferic light or cold light.

After one has tasted True Light, they can discern - True Light is a Fire, a purging Fire and our emotional and mental bodies, which are filled with darkness and falsities, will NOT FEEL GOOD when True Light comes in. They will feel fearful, agitated, shaken, for the Fires destroy the lies that we carry, emotionally and mentally. But men have been programmed by the lord of this world to cling to their lies for dear life and so will shrink from True Light, their fallen self feeling threatened by Its purging Fire.

True Light, Truth, brings Freedom by freeing us from the darkness within ourselves, if we would only believe, if we will only let go of the lies.

Without these purging Fires, we will remain in bondage to sin. This does not mean that once the Fires pass through we are then without sin - freedom means that we realize that while we are clothed in the rags, in the body of sin, we realize we are NOT this.

When the Fires of purgation pass through us, we become increasingly free from our body sin, seeing the Body of Truth and Light within ourselves, seeing that our true identity is as sons of God - which we will be fully when God's Grace frees us from these horrid bodies of sin. We find then that by not identifying with our body of sin, it having been crucified and hanging on the cross, desires and fears within us gradual fade and we lose our passion for sin. (Romans 6, Romans 7)

As long as we exist without True Light and identify with our body of sin - see ourselves as a personality, or as our physical, emotional, and mental bodies (which biblically is referred to as flesh and blood) we will remain in bondage and be controlled by our sin

The Churches of today, filled with the cold light of lucifer, have twisted the teachings of Jesus, just as Israel, under control of luciferic light, twisted the teachings of Moses, instructing now that it is ok that we remain in sin, in bondage to sin. That keeping our life of sin is ok, as long as we profess a belief in the historical Jesus. But a belief that does not compel us to come to the Light to have the darkness within us revealed is not true belief.

As has been promised, eventually True Light will be forced upon all of humanity. God's Mercy will not allow us to continue indefinitely in suffering, but will eventually intervene, bringing Christ in Power to the shores of our world, destroying all that is false, freeing the Spirit of humanity to return to God, from hence It came. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

If I might ask, mickiel, do you see Christ's Church as something that can and will be manifested in the physical realm? If so how do you see this coming about?

[If I might note, Moses is known to have seen the Real in the Spiritual, realizing that what he was creating in the physical was just a shadow. (The concept of shadow is interesting - a shadow is created when light is cast upon an obstruction to the light.)]



Jack

[mickiel]

If I might ask, mickiel, do you see Christ's Church as something that can and will be manifested in the physical realm? If so how do you see this coming about?

[


Jack



The Process will be manifested in the Physical realm, the beginning of it, but not the complettion of it. Christ began it, or began building on it, but he will present it to the Father as a finished work. The church is just the head of an entire race of human beings to yet be born again. The Church is just the First wave of this total reconciliation of humanity. The church is not just a group of called out chosen people, who are selected from all of humanity, then all the rest don't make it. John saw the firstfruits, or the beginning of the first wave of converted humans, THEN he saw a number that " No Man" could number, but people are still trying to number, or limit, what cannot be counted or limited, Salvation is limitless, because God is that way.

Jesus will hand over to God a church, or a Family, or an entire race of new creatures in Christ who will be without spot or wrinkle, meaning sinless. I don't see that being a race of physical humans, still in their flesh, because that moment will be glorius, and no flesh, or physical church, can glory in Gods presence.


So belief in salvation is not limited to the physical realm, and neither is the manifestation of Gods church. But one needs to understand what a church is or means to God. Isreal was a church, but they were a nation of people also. They were chosen and elected by God, yet NONE of them, except some of their leaders, were converted and had Gods Spirit inside of them. Yet God STILL considered them to be his elect chosen nation. Probally half of them didnot even believe in God, their actions repeated showed that to be true. But God still kept saving them, PHYSICALLY!

And that was a " Type" of Gods relationship with the entire human race. He considers all of us to be His, but gives his Spirit only to a few. We are all a nation of peoples, but God considers us to be his future church, or family. Many of us do not believe in him, but he will save us anyway. And that needs no manifestation, its just how its going to be. That was predestined way before there was a physical world.

In fact, the physical world only exist as a side note to the will of God, eventually even it will no longer exist.

Peace.

Peace.

[JackC]

The Process will be manifested in the Physical realm, the beginning of it, but not the complettion of it. Christ began it, or began building on it, but he will present it to the Father as a finished work. The church is just the head of an entire race of human beings to yet be born again. The Church is just the First wave of this total reconciliation of humanity. The church is not just a group of called out chosen people, who are selected from all of humanity, then all the rest don't make it. John saw the firstfruits, or the beginning of the first wave of converted humans, THEN he saw a number that " No Man" could number, but people are still trying to number, or limit, what cannot be counted or limited, Salvation is limitless, because God is that way.

Jesus will hand over to God a church, or a Family, or an entire race of new creatures in Christ who will be without spot or wrinkle, meaning sinless. I don't see that being a race of physical humans, still in their flesh, because that moment will be glorius, and no flesh, or physical church, can glory in Gods presence.


So belief in salvation is not limited to the physical realm, and neither is the manifestation of Gods church. But one needs to understand what a church is or means to God. Isreal was a church, but they were a nation of people also. They were chosen and elected by God, yet NONE of them, except some of their leaders, were converted and had Gods Spirit inside of them. Yet God STILL considered them to be his elect chosen nation. Probally half of them didnot even believe in God, their actions repeated showed that to be true. But God still kept saving them, PHYSICALLY!

And that was a " Type" of Gods relationship with the entire human race. He considers all of us to be His, but gives his Spirit only to a few. We are all a nation of peoples, but God considers us to be his future church, or family. Many of us do not believe in him, but he will save us anyway. And that needs no manifestation, its just how its going to be. That was predestined way before there was a physical world.

In fact, the physical world only exist as a side note to the will of God, eventually even it will no longer exist.

Peace.

Peace.

Hello mickiel.

Most that you have presented here reveals good insights and interpretations.

Just two things come to mind to share, perhaps to stretch the mind and heart a bit. And I might add that these two things may seem in contradiction of each other!

I guess I should first explain that as my understanding expanded from what we could call the parable or story stage, the first level of form, it was as though I was climbing up a mountain, my perspective altering or expanding the higher that I got.

The reason that Jesus often taught in the parable mode is because most people function with a valley perspective , where they have a difficult time seeing beyond the individual self – only being able to see things of God from the perspective of an individual self.

God and all that is not fallen sees things from a unity or whole perspective. Only that which is fallen sees things from the individual self perspective. (John 17)


And often things in the Bible seem contradictory because they are coming from different perspectives.

A story I share at times is that of a cancer cell existing in a host body. The cancer cell finds lot and lots to feed upon, and finds the host body a plentiful garden where it can flourish and create a family (multiply).

From the cancer cell's perspective, it is blessed, with riches galore - materially and in the form of family and friends.

The cancer cell prospers and thanks its creator for its blessings.

But as the cancer prospers, the host body becomes increasingly ill and begins to pray for release from the cancer, for healing. And eventually, chemo is administered and the cancer (hopefully) is destroyed.

From the cancer's perspective, the chemo is punishment, destruction, but from the host body's perspective, the chemo is life.

It just depends on where one is standing on the perspective mountain!

There will indeed be redemption for the whole fallen Body of Christ, but not before divine chemo has its way, not before the Body goes through the Fire.

And so from the mountain top, yes we see that God will redeem all. But from the valley, we see that the cancer will first have to be destroyed. Individual cells of the body that have become cancerous will have to be destroyed - the cancer of God's creation will have to eventually be destroyed.

We each are tiny tiny cells in the Body of Christ and none of us more important individually than the Whole and God will destroy some cells in order that the Whole be saved.

Ok now to the two things.

The first is from an individual self or parable perspective. Are you familiar with Matthew 13 and the parable of the weeds? Here Jesus explains divine chemo from an individual self perspective...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

He also speaks of an enemy of the Son of Man as having planted the tares. While all things initially came from Christ, there is something deemed to have become his enemy, something functioning actively hostile to the will of Christ, something that planted its own sons.

We also have other indications that God's Will is not presently being done on earth. While it is obvious that all things happen because God allows them to happen, they are not all according to His Will, in other words, presently, God is not forcing His Will upon us.

Will is Power and indeed God's Will is coming in the embodiment of Christ in Power.

As you said, mickiel, flesh cannot glory in the presence of God, for all in the presence of God must be pure, all according to His Will. That which is not according to His Will is kept in a state of separation until God’s Will or Power intervenes.

Ok, now the second point, which is from a more divine or unified perspective...

As mentioned above, your insights are good, from a parable or individual self perspective, but to begin to receive greater understanding, we must function in a unity perspective - seeing things from the Whole.

The Bible gives us stories referring to all as separate forms - we have the Father and then we have Christ, and then us. You make a comment about Jesus finishing the work and then giving us, the finished work to the Father. Explaining things in this way is helpful when we are first beginning our journey into right understanding, but at some point we will find ourselves being led to a higher perspective, where we find that seeing things in such forms is limiting.

For there to be three separate parties here, they all must exist in something that is not them - each being defined as a separate entity, with a beginning and an end, and spaces in between that is none of them.

So we have the Father as a separate form than that of the Son, both separate from humanity and then we have some type of space between us.

I think you might see where I am going here. The Father has no beginning or end, yes? He is not defined as a separate form but if we make the Father an infinite form, this simple story begins to fall apart. Where does the Father end and Christ begin? What sort of form or place or space do they exist in?

You see, higher spiritual verities do not fit into forms - forms are only a tool through which beginning understanding is offered.

Perhaps I can offer you another pallet on which to lay out your story?

In the beginning there was One undifferentiated Spirit. And that one Spirit had a thought (which became His Word) to experience Itself in individualization - as the Lover, the Beloved, and Love itself.

First the undifferentiated Spirit differentiated itself into two - the Father and the Holy Spirit - the Father still being infinite, but the Holy Spirit being finite, existing in a space within the infinite Father. And these two differentiations existed in a Blissful state for eons, eventually giving birth to their only begotten, to Christ, to Love, and through the design and power of God's first thought (or Word), through and by Christ, all that is created, was created - so that all of creation became form or the Body of Christ, also referred to Biblically as the Vine or the Tree of Life.

When Adam and Eve (mankind) ate from the tree of knowledge, they were cut off (in awareness or consciousness only, not in actuality) from the Body of Christ, the Vine, the Tree of Life, and all the stories of the Bridegroom and the Bride, the unfaithful wife, are all attempts to explain what happened spiritually.

Christ offering a purified humanity to the Father is a story attempting to explain how the whole of fallen humanity is re connected to the Tree of Life.

Divine Love is like a glue - it is Love that holds the differing cells of the Body of Christ together -and so it is very much a spiritual Love affair that unites all of creation together as the Tree of Life - with Life coming from the Father to sustain His Son (and the forms or Body that clothes His Son).

But this is another thread!


Think I have offered enough for one night!

Peace to you mickiel.



Jack

[mickiel]

I do not believe there is such a thing as something being, " Not according to Gods will". It does not matter what it is, if it is, then it is Gods will. If it exist, then it does so because of God, I do not believe anything that exist has evolved on its own. And that includes sin, in any form it manifest itself, God is still responsible for it. And thats exactly why God had to defeat sin, because he is responsible for its existance. And we are very fortunate of that, we just do not realize this. He had it brought into existance, for his own intrest, and he will destroy it, for his own intrest.

Humans cannot destroy sin, it is far more powerful than we are. God had the fuse of sin created and lite, it was inititated by his own power. satan is the father of sin and evil, but it was God who had him created, and thus God is soley responsible for all that it has done. And THAT is why the salvation of everyone is garenteed, because God is just and fair and faithful to himself. Oh yes, he may be against the sins themselves, such as rape, murder, stealing and so on, and allows those things to be done, ( because he could stop any of it at any time if he wanted to) but he is responsible for all of it, NOT humanity.

If you lay the sins of humanity, on humanity, then you have the christian doctrine of hell becomming relevant. If you lay them on Christ, then Universal Salvation becomes relevant, because Christ is a sin sponge, in him they dissapear, in christian doctrine, humans must pay for their sins, and pay a far more horrible price than Christ paied.

Sin is meaningless to God, which is why he lets it go on for now, it cannot alter his will or effect our future. People who cannot see Universal Salvation, cannot see it mainly because they see so much sin in humanity, and they have to see men pay for it. They NEED to see men pay for it, because they cannot see Christ paying for it.

I'll show yet another scripture that even reveals that Universal Salvation is not only in the bible, but was in Gods mind BEFORE the bible was written. 1Thess.5:9,"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Here Salvation is clearly predestined, already determined way before men even were created. And sin was a predetermined factor in this, that God factored in. Evil is not happenstance, it has a purpose.

In Titus 2:11, God also factored in his grace, knowing what sin would do to the world, " For the grace of God has appeared , BRINGING SALVATION to ALL MEN." So where sin has abounded, Grace has mathamaticly abounded even more to cover it. So God KNOWS and is AWARE of all of this, we do not personally sin because of God forcing us to, but we are in the condition we are, because God created the environment, or the earth and satan. God does not personally make people sin, but he is personally responsible for it, thats WHY he personally had it defeated through his only son. We inherited sin through the garden of Eden, and we inherited Salvation because of that, Heb.1:14, Salvation is an inheritance, not a reward for righteous living. Everyone is looking where to place the blame for things, every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God, Heb.3:4. All things, there is no such thing as not according to his will. Gods work was FINISHED from the foundation of the world, 4:3, what then can our sins do to a finished work?

Creation was SUBJECTED to Sin, NOT because it is our responsibility, or OUR will, it was GODS WILL, Rom.8:20.

The future of sin is to be subjected to Christ and snuffed out forever, so it does not matter to God what sins men committ, but it DOES matter to us, because we think WE must pay for our sins. Sin is in everyone now, but our future is to have God IN us, ALL of us. Notice 1Corinth. 15:28;"And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the ONE WHO SUBJECTED ALL THINGS TO HIM, then God will be ALL IN ALL!"

This is the true church, this is the true destiny of all of humanity, all of us sinners.

And this is the true Gospel mystery.

Peace.

[JackC]

I do not believe there is such a thing as something being, " Not according to Gods will". It does not matter what it is, if it is, then it is Gods will. If it exist, then it does so because of God, I do not believe anything that exist has evolved on its own. And that includes sin, in any form it manifest itself, God is still responsible for it. And thats exactly why God had to defeat sin, because he is responsible for its existance. And we are very fortunate of that, we just do not realize this. He had it brought into existance, for his own intrest, and he will destroy it, for his own intrest.

Humans cannot destroy sin, it is far more powerful than we are. God had the fuse of sin created and lite, it was inititated by his own power. satan is the father of sin and evil, but it was God who had him created, and thus God is soley responsible for all that it has done. And THAT is why the salvation of everyone is garenteed, because God is just and fair and faithful to himself. Oh yes, he may be against the sins themselves, such as rape, murder, stealing and so on, and allows those things to be done, ( because he could stop any of it at any time if he wanted to) but he is responsible for all of it, NOT humanity.

If you lay the sins of humanity, on humanity, then you have the christian doctrine of hell becomming relevant. If you lay them on Christ, then Universal Salvation becomes relevant, because Christ is a sin sponge, in him they dissapear, in christian doctrine, humans must pay for their sins, and pay a far more horrible price than Christ paied.

Sin is meaningless to God, which is why he lets it go on for now, it cannot alter his will or effect our future. People who cannot see Universal Salvation, cannot see it mainly because they see so much sin in humanity, and they have to see men pay for it. They NEED to see men pay for it, because they cannot see Christ paying for it.

I'll show yet another scripture that even reveals that Universal Salvation is not only in the bible, but was in Gods mind BEFORE the bible was written. 1Thess.5:9,"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Here Salvation is clearly predestined, already determined way before men even were created. And sin was a predetermined factor in this, that God factored in. Evil is not happenstance, it has a purpose.

In Titus 2:11, God also factored in his grace, knowing what sin would do to the world, " For the grace of God has appeared , BRINGING SALVATION to ALL MEN." So where sin has abounded, Grace has mathamaticly abounded even more to cover it. So God KNOWS and is AWARE of all of this, we do not personally sin because of God forcing us to, but we are in the condition we are, because God created the environment, or the earth and satan. God does not personally make people sin, but he is personally responsible for it, thats WHY he personally had it defeated through his only son. We inherited sin through the garden of Eden, and we inherited Salvation because of that, Heb.1:14, Salvation is an inheritance, not a reward for righteous living. Everyone is looking where to place the blame for things, every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God, Heb.3:4. All things, there is no such thing as not according to his will. Gods work was FINISHED from the foundation of the world, 4:3, what then can our sins do to a finished work?

Creation was SUBJECTED to Sin, NOT because it is our responsibility, or OUR will, it was GODS WILL, Rom.8:20.

The future of sin is to be subjected to Christ and snuffed out forever, so it does not matter to God what sins men committ, but it DOES matter to us, because we think WE must pay for our sins. Sin is in everyone now, but our future is to have God IN us, ALL of us. Notice 1Corinth. 15:28;"And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the ONE WHO SUBJECTED ALL THINGS TO HIM, then God will be ALL IN ALL!"

This is the true church, this is the true destiny of all of humanity, all of us sinners.

And this is the true Gospel mystery.

Peace.

Here is another verse to add to those you have cited...

Hebrews 11: 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Romans 8: 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Scripture does indeed tell us that the coming about of this world and our placement in it was according to the will of God. It does not however say that the why for this world was according to His will - us being placed in bondage in the first place, the first cause of the fall of man.

This world became a place just as Paul says, to allow for us to be liberated from bondage, because the alternative would have been our destruction. Mercy allows for us to continue to exist separate from His presence, in the hope that we will find salvation.

Yes, there is a plan by God, to bring all of the experiences of individualization of his creatures, even those who fell, back into the Whole. His Mercy allows for this.

My words, mickiel, were offered to give you an opportunity to take a step back, and see how what you are seeing fits into the bigger picture. It is not my intent to correct anyone (except maybe for the sons of the the devil!), but to offer a bigger picture.

Again, none of us can ever understand fully, but as long as our knowledge leads us to repent ance - to let go of our identification as a sinful self and recognize ourselves as sparks of Christ (as you said the sinful self can do nothing about its sin, but the spark of Christ within us can for it is an heir to the kingdom, it is purity and obedience ) - we are moving in the right direction.

And just as I read again and again in your posts, as long as we hold to this concept of blame - of this or that person or idea being right or wrong, we will remain in bondage to the tree of knowledge.

I started a thread on this the other day...

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=100059


Peace to you mickiel.



Jack

[mickiel]

Belief in Salvation is not limited to Universalism, or to Christianity, or to any religion that believes in some form of Salvation. Once Jesus mentioned that he has " Other sheep that are not of this fold", John 10:16, he then said that " He must BRING them also". I believe that to be a reference to " Outsiders", or unbelievers that need to be brought to God.

Jesus was not refering to the people of his day and time in the Flesh, salvation is not limited to just those people Jesus physically preached to, its a Spiritual matter entirely, and the time and year that people live in does not matter. He MUST bring them to him also. He said he must, which indicates a NEED in his thoughts to do so. So belief in Salvation is not limited to those who hold a professed will to believe in Christ, which is good for them to have, but it is based on Jesus going OUTSIDE of just those who believe, and bring them in also. This indicates a mentality here. Jesus has a mentality of concentrating on those who are without, as demonstrated in the " Lost Sheep parable". He will leave the 99, and go GET the one who is lost.

This is a sure definte mold of thinking, it is purpose and design. In Matt.18:12-14, this is explained by Christ. Yet another pure example of Universal Salvation in Scripture, and still yet unbelieved. Jesus plainly shows that he will leave his flock, or presently called out church group, and GO LOOKING for those who are lost. He goes further in vs. 14;" Thus it IS NOT THE WILL OF YOUR FATHER , who is in Heaven that not even ONE of these be LOST!" Look at the desire AND WILL of God here, that not even one human be lost.

That, THAT, is what GOD DESIRES, and I am against the Spirit that looks to persuade men that God does not get what he wants.

Peace.

[JackC]

Belief in Salvation is not limited to Universalism, or to Christianity, or to any religion that believes in some form of Salvation. Once Jesus mentioned that he has " Other sheep that are not of this fold", John 10:16, he then said that " He must BRING them also". I believe that to be a reference to " Outsiders", or unbelievers that need to be brought to God.

Hey mickiel,

I think that all - other than a small handful of those standing before Jesus - were unbelievers! Remember that the masses screamed crucify! crucify! before Herod, and even those closest to Jesus did not believe.

It seems that at that moment, Jesus did not count the believers as many (certainly not all those listening to him at that time) and so it seems more reasonable that in speaking of other sheep, he was referring to a different delineation than belief.

However, I feel you are on to something that is quite important (your view expanding in the right direction - your proof or validation of this view, weak).

Salvation is not limited to Judaism and Christianity. Salvation is for all men, all that fell that were created in the image of God - and Love and divine Law dictate that God reach out to all men made in His image, not just to a few.

Salvation or Liberation is at the essence of all spiritual traditions, all rooted in true revealings from God - all sheep having received true teachings, within their culture, designed for their culture, to be understood by their culture.

God has reached down to the level of all men - in a form and way that all can understand, and not just to and through this or that race or these or those people.

There is a limitation that is common for all men of understanding, though, one that is difficult to see beyond, one which you bring up and mention in some contexts, but do not seem to have let it blossom to full awareness.

That which will be saved is not the flesh and blood of man.

Flesh and blood - which is actually the self that must be denied, the old man as Paul refers to it - will never know salvation. Such is merely clothing for the soul, clothing that is referred to as rags (Jesus), or a tent (Paul and Peter and the OT). Such must be left behind, will be left behind (the mystery of God's will) either willingly or forcefully.

God will demand from us eventually,our life as a self. Jesus calls us to let go before we go to the grave. While all that was created in the image of God - which is merely clothed in a self body - a personal identity - will be saved, the clothing, the self, will not.

There is great benefit to the individual soul and to the Whole for the fallen children of God to willingly give up their rag clothing, deny the self.

We will lose these things anyways. They are nothing but the dust of this fallen world and will be destroyed in the Fire as this world and all that is in it is destroyed.

2 Peter 3 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[b] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


Jesus was not refering to the people of his day and time in the Flesh, salvation is not limited to just those people Jesus physically preached to, its a Spiritual matter entirely, and the time and year that people live in does not matter. He MUST bring them to him also. He said he must, which indicates a NEED in his thoughts to do so. So belief in Salvation is not limited to those who hold a professed will to believe in Christ, which is good for them to have, but it is based on Jesus going OUTSIDE of just those who believe, and bring them in also.

Yes, salvation is a Spiritual matter - a Spirit and Soul matter. The self, the flesh and blood, the personality, that clothes the children of God will be dissolved, again either according to our own will (rapture) or against our own will (destruction).

So Jack and Mickiel, and Dee Dee Warren, or any personality will never be saved - as you said they could not even exist in God's Presence, but the Spirit in all - believer, unbeliever, Christian, Buddhist, all, every last Spirit that was formed in the image of God, everyone one, will be saved.

The question left is whether or not we willingly discard our ragged clothing, our tents, our personalities, or if they will be demanded from us.

As our spirits are drawn back home, to the Father, His burning Fire will burn away anything on us/in us that is not True and Lasting, anything that is not eternal.

This anything is that part of us that is of the lie, anything that prevents us from being One (John 17) - which is all of our false separate self. So that all that is of the lie will be discarded, all that is 'us', that is of these fallen worlds, will be burned away, leaving only that which is True and Real, pure, innocent, obedient.

If you feel these comments here are erroneous, mickiel, perhaps you can share the process you foresee by which all will be saved? You had stated that flesh cannot glory in the presence of the Father, in your understanding what happens to the flesh and any other parts of us that cannot glory in His presence?



This indicates a mentality here. Jesus has a mentality of concentrating on those who are without, as demonstrated in the " Lost Sheep parable". He will leave the 99, and go GET the one who is lost.

This is a sure definte mold of thinking, it is purpose and design. In Matt.18:12-14, this is explained by Christ. Yet another pure example of Universal Salvation in Scripture, and still yet unbelieved. Jesus plainly shows that he will leave his flock, or presently called out church group, and GO LOOKING for those who are lost. He goes further in vs. 14;" Thus it IS NOT THE WILL OF YOUR FATHER , who is in Heaven that not even ONE of these be LOST!" Look at the desire AND WILL of God here, that not even one human be lost.

That, THAT, is what GOD DESIRES, and I am against the Spirit that looks to persuade men that God does not get what he wants.

Peace.

God will certainly get what He wills, what He wants - that all things (all that was created by Him in His image) will be brought together as One, Christ.

The problem is the luciferic will - that the lie be made eternal, that the false self identity that all of God's children carry, be everlasting as well.

Lucifer, without and within us (lucifer meaning the fallen separate self-identity, which seeks to be eternal just as is the spark of Spirit carried within), seeks to make what is false, what is a lie, eternal.

Only that which is One, which is not of separate self identities, only that made in the image of God, will be everlasting. But not the dust It was clothed in.




Jack

[mickiel]

Belief in salvation is not limited to Universalism, but I think Universalism has set a most truthful standard of how the mind of God must be. I see Gods mind as complette and lacking nothing, or one could say his mind is Universal, or All-Inclusive, showing no partiality toward humans, or picking and choosing just certain ones, then to hell with the rest.

I have very large, big expectations from this being I consider to be real. A religion is a reflection of what people think about life. What they think about their belief, and their God, if they have one. I like what Universalism teachs about God, not all of it, but more of it than anyother religion on earth. I hold no intrest in joining any Universalist group, or any group, because I believe Salvation is not limited to just Christianity, Universalism, or any way of belief.

Christianity has not cornered the market on belief, nor has Universalist, there is no market on Salvation, its always free. You cannot pay for it with your willful decision to accept it, because it is not offered based on your acceptance, and it is not removed based on your denial. People do not accept God because they are basically torn and battered, our lives have been infected with suffering. The suffering has burned our belief and it is smoldering, it is weak.

In Matthew 12:20, is a prophecy from Isaiah concerning the mind of Jesus, which reflects the mind of God;" A battered reed he will not break off, and a smoldering wick he will not put out." This is a reflection of a God with a Universal mindset, he does not look to condemn and punish people who are hurting and weak and hold no belief. If a human is alive, there is potential for Salvation, but to my surprise, God can Save even the Dead, that is how universal he thinks, and how unlimited Salvation really is.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[JackC]

Belief in salvation is not limited to Universalism, but I think Universalism has set a most truthful standard of how the mind of God must be. I see Gods mind as complette and lacking nothing, or one could say his mind is Universal, or All-Inclusive, showing no partiality toward humans, or picking and choosing just certain ones, then to hell with the rest.

A term I have found helpful in referring the God and all that is One with God, is COSMIC.

God looks at things from the perspective of the Whole.

I have very large, big expectations from this being I consider to be real.

A trait which I have found essential.

If we settle for less than perfection, we are setting for less than God. This is one of the passions resulting in the inner war or struggle that Paul spoke of in Romans 7. If we do not know this same struggle, we do not know God, nor do we have any inkling of Truth.


A religion is a reflection of what people think about life. What they think about their belief, and their God, if they have one. I like what Universalism teachs about God, not all of it, but more of it than anyother religion on earth. I hold no intrest in joining any Universalist group, or any group, because I believe Salvation is not limited to just Christianity, Universalism, or any way of belief.

Eventually , if we hold to our higher expectations, we will move passed book learning, or learning about, to inner experience, which is born of the inner struggle.

Christianity has not cornered the market on belief, nor has Universalist, there is no market on Salvation, its always free.

Love has the market cornered on Salvation!


You cannot pay for it with your willful decision to accept it, because it is not offered based on your acceptance, and it is not removed based on your denial. People do not accept God because they are basically torn and battered, our lives have been infected with suffering. The suffering has burned our belief and it is smoldering, it is weak.

The issue is one that you have spoken of before, although you may not fully realize what you said, or are seeing.

As you put simply - flesh and blood cannot glory in the presence of the Father. And so if our love is for flesh and blood, for a flesh and blood existence and thus not for an existence in the presence of God, should God forcibly take away from us what we really want?

In another post, you stated that Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden. Do you remember what happened first? Adam and Eve first chose to hide from God, to be separate, and to clothe themselves in things they did not need or could not have in the presence of God (flesh and blood by chance?).

Adam and Eve made the choice - separation and flesh and blood over continued existence in the presence of God.

So what sort of cold-hearted God would force His Presence on his creatures? The Universal salvation that you presented is that from a pretty awful God - one who forces Himself and His Presence on creatures who do not want Him. One who takes away what His creatures really want.

We are fallen because that is what we chose.

We chose separation, existence in a material world in material bodies, and God, by Law, allowed these things to happen - according to His Law which allowed for evil to exist within us, for our life to be a rollercoaster of sufferings. All intended to get us to change our mind - to lose our desires for an existence in this world, separate from God. For us to willingly crucify our flesh along with its desires and passions (Galatians 5:24). Our desire becoming to leave this world of separation and again glory in God's Presence.

In Matthew 12:20, is a prophecy from Isaiah concerning the mind of Jesus, which reflects the mind of God;" A battered reed he will not break off, and a smoldering wick he will not put out." This is a reflection of a God with a Universal mindset, he does not look to condemn and punish people who are hurting and weak and hold no belief. If a human is alive, there is potential for Salvation, but to my surprise, God can Save even the Dead, that is how universal he thinks, and how unlimited Salvation really is.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Let's look at the scripture in it's entirety...

15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes[c] followed Him, and He healed them all. 16 Yet He warned them not to make Him known, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

18 “ Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
19 He will not quarrel nor cry out,
Nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench,
Till He sends forth justice to victory;
21 And in His name Gentiles will trust.”

Jesus pulled away not because he would never break the reed nor quench the smoking flax, but because the time had not yet come.

Let's look at these verses too...

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


First if I might offer, we can know another's heart by looking at which scriptures in the Bible one is drawn to, so I know that your heart is good, mickiel, because you are drawn to the verses that tell of God's Love, and Mercy, and Forgiveness.

There are other verses though that do speak of destruction and purification. I think the problem is that Christianity has looked at destruction and purification as punishment, which it is not.

Such are acts of Love and Mercy.

God wants all that has been created to return to Him and they will, the issue is whether or not they do it according to their own will or against it.

In other words, God's Laws are set up to work in getting us to despise and hate our lives of suffering, our lives separate from Him, and wanting to return Home. God wants to purify us, make us able to be in His Presence (the event in the Garden in reverse - we give back our outer clothes and return to His Presence out of our own love and desire to do so), and so seeks to purify us by our own choice (believing and so coming into the Light so that we may we may be purified of the 'tree of knowledge' existing within us).

And for those who do not chose salvation, salvation will be forced upon us - destruction not being an act of vengance or punishment, but of Love and Mercy. Our spirit then will return to God, and our individualization will be as though we never existed. Not to punish, but to free us from suffering, to end the suffering.

And so our salvation is up to us, is our choice. Salvation will either be by our will (purification and re-unification as One in Christ) or by God's will which will be the destruction of our individualization - the latter being the time the He sends forth justice to victory.

And if we look at this Cosmically - God will purify the Body of Christ, before it is brought into His Presence. Purification resulting in the cutting off of those parts (those creatures) who chose to remain in bondage to sin.

As Jesus said , it is better that we lose a part of the Body, instead of losing the whole thing.



Jack

[mickiel]

Belief in Salvation is not Limited to Universalism, but hats off to Universalist for their aggressive defense of Gods explicid nature of Love being expressed in their belief.

Let me show you some wonderful biblical verses on Universalism. Look at Romans 11:23; The verse clearly shows that unbelievers will be grafted back into belief by God himself."

Look at verse 26; " Thus ALL Israel WILL BE SAVED." Anyone with any sense about a whole race of people and their belief, KNOWS that there is no such thing as an whole race of people who all believe the same thing. Or who all believe in the same God. But here ALL of the nation of Israel is biblically prophicised to be saved, and you just know that all of them are NOT believers in God. Again unbelievers shown to be given Salvation, the pride of Christianity, their precious belief, is not the only way to be saved.

Again Justification is defined by Paul, an obvious Universalist, in Rom.3:22-23. It is the righteousness of God, not of believers, but of God that saves us and justifys us. Both the Believer, or peoples like the Christians and thousands of other religions that believe in God, but also for unbelievers, THERE IS NO DISTINCTION! Just as it is a fact we all have sinned, it is a fact we all have Justification awaiting us in eternity.( vs.30) This verse is NOT discussing the physical act of circumcission, it is talking about the removal of SINS.

Look at Rom.5:6, " God DEMONSTRATES his LOVE toward us that while we were YET SINNERS, CHRIST died for us, yet another verse that shows the death of Christ was for sinners and unbelievers. While people are PRESENTLY sinning, PRESENTLY unbelieving, Jesus death STILL applys to them.

Again Rom.3:3, well what if some do not believe in God, the question is asked does that nullify their Salvation, the Apostle screams-- " NO! May it NEVER Be!" Their unbelief willnot NULLIFY the FAITHFULLNESS OF GOD! God will still be faithful to his love for them, his Love for his own Grace and Kindness.

Oh but peoples unbelief will most certainly nullify the Faith that Christians have in people and in Salvation.

We are fortunate that Christians do not control Salvation.

Peace.

[JackC]

Belief in Salvation is not Limited to Universalism, but hats off to Universalist for their aggressive defense of Gods explicid nature of Love being expressed in their belief.


Mickiel,

I much concur with the spirit in which you perceive. It is full of truth. However, as you pull it down, and the ego applies what is sensed, you at times misapply it to specific scriptures in the Bible, giving an appearance of sloppy interpretation.

Perhaps you might consider some programmings that keep your mental body stuck in certain details? It is quite easy for the ego to misapply higher spiritual truths to the physical plane, or the plane if individualization.

Let me show you some wonderful biblical verses on Universalism. Look at Romans 11:23; The verse clearly shows that unbelievers will be grafted back into belief by God himself."

Let's look together at what Paul says...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The spirit of what you are seeing is real - you are feeling the energy behind Paul's words - one that is trying to teach that things are not as they seem to be in the physical world. Paul, here, is saying - look, this is what is appearing to be happening, but it is not - just because a person or peoples appear(s) to be unsaved now, does not mean they will be unsaved always.

It is awesome that you allow the energy behind Paul's words to speak to you, that you receive the Mercy and Wisdom that he is sharing. However, like I sometimes find with myself - the ego gets involved, jumps in too early, trying to explain what we are sensing, using a preprogrammed set of sensors, and you are making some erroneous conclusions regarding what you are perceiving.

In these verses Paul does not say explicitly that God will graft unbelievers back into belief, but that those who were unbelievers, or have been unbelievers, and cut off, IF THEY DO NOT CONTINUE IN UNBELIEF, can be grafted back in. Here, Paul does not speak to the cause of their change of belief to unbelief - specifically saying that God is the cause, only that if they do not continue, IF, God can and will graft them back in.

Look at verse 26; " Thus ALL Israel WILL BE SAVED." Anyone with any sense about a whole race of people and their belief, KNOWS that there is no such thing as an whole race of people who all believe the same thing. Or who all believe in the same God. But here ALL of the nation of Israel is biblically prophicised to be saved, and you just know that all of them are NOT believers in God. Again unbelievers shown to be given Salvation, the pride of Christianity, their precious belief, is not the only way to be saved.

Let's look at these verses...

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

For these verses, I thank you. I too believe that we can not fully understand all that is happening, and make judgments as to what Christ is up to - how He will accomplish all that He has planned to accomplish.

This process of saving all is no where near done. The work of salvation of humanity does not end with death - of an individual, nor death of this whole world. God is not working to save individuals, but souls, and few are ready to understand the difference. Persons or individuals make no difference to Him - He only sees souls.

Humanity's perspective is way too limited and small to comprehend all that is going on.

Again Justification is defined by Paul, an obvious Universalist, in Rom.3:22-23. It is the righteousness of God, not of believers, but of God that saves us and justifys us. Both the Believer, or peoples like the Christians and thousands of other religions that believe in God, but also for unbelievers, THERE IS NO DISTINCTION! Just as it is a fact we all have sinned, it is a fact we all have Justification awaiting us in eternity.( vs.30) This verse is NOT discussing the physical act of circumcission, it is talking about the removal of SINS.

Here, yes, you are seeing a little deeper than the surface meaning of Paul's words (anything of the spirit of truth is true on multiple levels - eg physical and spiritual - at the same time).

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

In the above, Paul is making reference to the Law of Israel as being a tool of teaching higher spiritual verities. The intent of the Torah is for teaching obedience to higher truths, not enforcing obedience to the 613 commandments.

As Paul often says, whether we find the way through the laws and rituals of Israel, or through some other means, is not important. What is important is that we find the way.

In other words, Life cannot be found in the commandments themselves, but the act of obedience can lead us to Life.

[The circumcision that matters is that of the heart - freeing the spirit-spark of the bondage of the walls of imprisonment that are erected due to our fallen state.]



Look at Rom.5:6, " God DEMONSTRATES his LOVE toward us that while we were YET SINNERS, CHRIST died for us, yet another verse that shows the death of Christ was for sinners and unbelievers. While people are PRESENTLY sinning, PRESENTLY unbelieving, Jesus death STILL applys to them.

Indeed. What appears to be in the present, is not what is going on, or what will go on. We as humans can only see superficially and cannot know.

Again Rom.3:3, well what if some do not believe in God, the question is asked does that nullify their Salvation, the Apostle screams-- " NO! May it NEVER Be!" Their unbelief willnot NULLIFY the FAITHFULLNESS OF GOD! God will still be faithful to his love for them, his Love for his own Grace and Kindness.

Two things here. First Paul admits that he is speaking here as a man (eg from his ego) and not under revelation of God. So what he is saying has less spirit of truth behind it, therefore is more easily confused.

Second, the part underlined above, you added. It is your interpretation.

If we look at what Paul said…

1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“ That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Here, Paul is talking more wholistically, not individually. And is asking if the unbelief of Israel a bad reflection on God? Does it mean that God’s faithfulness to them was of no effect?

Here again Paul says what seems obvious is not what was and is really going on. But he is not speaking about individual salvation of those who did not believe – although he does this elsewhere.

Here Paul is not speaking of God’s faithfulness to individuals, but of God’s faithfulness to all of humanity. And in that faithfulness to the whole, some individuals will suffer, some will even be lost.

Best we be careful and not jump conclusions.

Until we ourselves see clearly, we can be easily confused by Paul’s words, seeing things that are not there, to justify details of our insight that may or may not be true.



but peoples unbelief will most certainly nullify the Faith that Christians have in people and in Salvation.

We are fortunate that Christians do not control Salvation.

Peace.

Yes, jumping to conclusions regarding what Paul is saying, when one does not first see clearly, has been a common problem.

2 Peter 3: 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.


Jack

[JackC]

Lost post #36 by mickiel...

I do admit to giving the Scripture full force in my interpitation. For example, in Matt. 1:21 an Angel of the Lord said that Jesus will save his people from their sins. The bible says that all have sinned, in my sloppy interpitation, I then see the need for all men to be saved. Sin is all inclusive, so we need a Savior that is all Inclusive. I then look for the evidence of Jesus being all inclusive, and I have found it. In 1John 4:14," And we beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent Jesus to be the Savior of the World." Here we see that even the Father is all inclusive, his view toward sin is also Universal, it includes everyone, because everyone has sinned and needs to be saved.

Now I admit to being kind of weird in my interpitation, because my view, is what I believe Gods view is, he looks out for his own intrest, and the intrest of others, Phil.2:4

I view Salvation with a world view because that is how God and Jesus view it. In John 12:47,Jesus again gives a World View toward unbelievers;" And if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do NOT Judge them; For I didNOT come to Judge the WORLD, but to SAVE A WORLD!" Here Jesus so very plainly, just outright tells us that disobedience is something he is not even going to judge, he didnot come to earth looking for those who obey, he came looking to save those who disobey, all of them, not just a few of them.

Now Jesus didnot come to judge the world with Condemnation, like so many Christians are stuck on believing, Judging the world with everlasting non stop torture, is what I consider as sloppy interpitation. There is a revealed Judgement with Jesus, he plainly tells it in John 9:39," For this Judgement I came into the World( so he himself is about to give what HIS Judgement is for the whole world of sinners) THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT SEE, MAY SEE. The future of the entire race of sinners, is to one day see the gospel truth.

Conversely, he also gives another judgement. That those who see, may become blind. I believe this to be a reference to Christians, and many others who see judgement in the bible as condemnation toward all sinners and unbelievers. They will be blinded to the Universal Intrest of God.

Peace

[JackC]

Lost post # 37 by JackC...


I do admit to giving the Scripture full force in my interpitation. For example, in Matt. 1:21 an Angel of the Lord said that Jesus will save his people from their sins. The bible says that all have sinned, in my sloppy interpitation, I then see the need for all men to be saved. Sin is all inclusive, so we need a Savior that is all Inclusive. I then look for the evidence of Jesus being all inclusive, and I have found it. In 1John 4:14," And we beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent Jesus to be the Savior of the World." Here we see that even the Father is all inclusive, his view toward sin is also Universal, it includes everyone, because everyone has sinned and needs to be saved.

I point it out because it makes others think you do not know what you are talking about, and also although we all make mistakes, doing such with consistency indicates what you call a blockage from traditional thought [there are many blockages that we all must break down!].

I have found that such a blockage in evident (and it is insightful that you see this in humanity) when there is circular logic, when the other person seems stuck and ignores all evidence presented to them.

One whose mind is free can incorporate the evidence into what they are seeing, offering a bigger picture, seeing the whole of scripture, which is the direction you seem to be moving in, although some blockages still remain.
Now I admit to being kind of weird in my interpitation, because my view, is what I believe Gods view is, he looks out for his own intrest, and the intrest of others, Phil.2:4

I view Salvation with a world view because that is how God and Jesus view it. In John 12:47,Jesus again gives a World View toward unbelievers;" And if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do NOT Judge them; For I didNOT come to Judge the WORLD, but to SAVE A WORLD!" Here Jesus so very plainly, just outright tells us that disobedience is something he is not even going to judge, he didnot come to earth looking for those who obey, he came looking to save those who disobey, all of them, not just a few of them.

Now Jesus didnot come to judge the world with Condemnation, like so many Christians are stuck on believing, Judging the world with everlasting non stop torture, is what I consider as sloppy interpitation. There is a revealed Judgement with Jesus, he plainly tells it in John 9:39," For this Judgement I came into the World( so he himself is about to give what HIS Judgement is for the whole world of sinners) THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT SEE, MAY SEE. The future of the entire race of sinners, is to one day see the gospel truth.

Conversely, he also gives another judgement. That those who see, may become blind. I believe this to be a reference to Christians, and many others who see judgement in the bible as condemnation toward all sinners and unbelievers. They will be blinded to the Universal Intrest of God.

Peace

Indeed. mickiel.

All these things come from the spirit of truth, and I find quite clear and evident in scripture. If I can help you..

my view, is what I believe Gods view is, he looks out for his own intrest, and the intrest of others
Phi 2:41 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

This is wholistic thinking, unity thinking, which indeed is how God and all that is divine and One with God operates.

This is why Jesus said love others as though they are your self. Because in God we are One, we are each other. All is God and all that is is an expression of God. So you and me and spitndirt all else are just differing expressions or individualizations of the same One God. [God is One, Oh Israel.]

We as individuals are nothing more than dust, on our own, but in unity, we are expressions of the same One God. So in reality what we do to one another, we do to ourselves and we do to God.

Matthew 25: 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

I view Salvation with a world view because that is how God and Jesus view it. In John 12:47,Jesus again gives a World View toward unbelievers;" And if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do NOT Judge them; For I didNOT come to Judge the WORLD, but to SAVE A WORLD!" Here Jesus so very plainly, just outright tells us that disobedience is something he is not even going to judge, he didnot come to earth looking for those who obey, he came looking to save those who disobey, all of them, not just a few of them.

John 12: 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Indeed, Mickiel. John the Baptist also said this...

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!


Christ will take away the sins of the world, he will save the world. What this means though is hardly understood.

This is wholistic thinking, saving the whole of this world, the whole of humanity, the one body of humanity (Adam in Hebrew). However, this does not mean that each individual human will be saved.

To save the whole world, to take away the sins of the world, might require that part of the body of humanity be cut off, for as Jesus says it is better that the body lose its eye or hand, than the whole body be lost.

Those who join with Jesus in the work of the Father, work to save the whole of humanity, but understand that some parts will be lost.

And indeed we all are working to save those who do not believe, those who have been condemning themselves because they do not believe [He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. John 3]. Which ever individuals come to the Light, will be saved with the whole of humanity.

Individuals that have believed not yet knowing salvation, because the whole body of Adam will be saved at once, passed through the Fire, and only those parts which can endure the Fire, will survive.

Hebrews 11: 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

This process of being made perfect, of going through the Fire, will be the taking away of the sins of the world. This did not occur on the cross, but will occur at the 'final judgment'.

Now Jesus didnot come to judge the world with Condemnation, like so many Christians are stuck on believing, Judging the world with everlasting non stop torture, is what I consider as sloppy interpitation. There is a revealed Judgement with Jesus, he plainly tells it in John 9:39," For this Judgement I came into the World( so he himself is about to give what HIS Judgement is for the whole world of sinners) THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT SEE, MAY SEE. The future of the entire race of sinners, is to one day see the gospel truth.

Conversely, he also gives another judgement. That those who see, may become blind. I believe this to be a reference to Christians, and many others who see judgement in the bible as condemnation toward all sinners and unbelievers. They will be blinded to the Universal Intrest of God.

Yes, we condemn ourselves and our living here in this world our condemnation.

John 3: 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.


Jesus is using a technique he used often, that of wit: when Jesus says For judgment I have come into this world, that those who see be made blind he is saying that he will judge those who think they see (but do not - hence only think that they are not blind) so that they realize the truth, that they are actually blind and cannot see.

Jesus is saying that because the Pharisees are ignorant of their blindness, they remain in their sin, but when they realize they are blind - by the judgment Jesus brought into the world - their sin will be taken away.

Here Jesus is talking of the importance of spiritual poverty, in realizing that we are ignorant and just do not see. As long as we remain in our pride, convinced that we see and know, our sin will remain upon us.

Belief leads to our coming to the Light and seeing the darkness within ourselves, realizing that we are blind, realizing our spiritual poverty, then we can be purified, and no longer responsible for our sin.

This is the judgment that Jesus brought to the world - the Light to reveal our blindness, our spiritual poverty.



Jack

[JackC]

Lost post #38 by mickiel...



All these things come from the spirit of truth, and I find quite clear and evident in scripture. If I can help you..


Jack



Well I appriciate the offer, but I am not here to find help, I trust complettely the source that is teaching me.

Besides Jack, I see far too much New Age Theology in the influence that is in your mind. I have seen New Age Theology before, I hold no intrest in it, because it is not for me. I mean others find it attractive and mystic, but it does absolutely nothing for me.

I hold no intrest in being taught by anyone here, or anywherelse.

I walk alone, and I learn from a lone source.

Peace.

[JackC]

Lost post #38 by mickiel...





Well I appriciate the offer, but I am not here to find help, I trust complettely the source that is teaching me.

Besides Jack, I see far too much New Age Theology in the influence that is in your mind. I have seen New Age Theology before, I hold no intrest in it, because it is not for me. I mean others find it attractive and mystic, but it does absolutely nothing for me.

I hold no intrest in being taught by anyone here, or anywherelse.

I walk alone, and I learn from a lone source.

Peace.



I do not care for the New Age also, mickiel, but yes some of what I offer is also found in their philosophies - just as it is also found in the philosophies of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sufism, Buddhism, many native American spiritual traditions, and on and on. Because what I offer is at the root of all true spiritual revelations.

What differentiates is if these teachings are seen through selfish eyes, if they are interpreted and applied selfishly - which turns them into false teachings.

This is what New Age has done. It has taken right understanding (or partial right understanding) and twisted it, distorted it, making it all about the self [even when all true teachers say to deny self, teaching a path of selflessness].

And you are right, there is only one True Teacher, and that teacher alone is trustworthy. However, the lessons the True Teacher has to teach us are so critical that He will use any and all means to teach us, to reach us - including others.

With me, the True Teacher used nature - seeds and dirt and water, as well as true teachers, through whom He taught. He used any and all means through which He could reach me.

It would have been a lot easier if I had not been so dang stubborn and so pre-programmed! But it was not an easy road, to learn all that He had to teach me.

But in the end my interest was in learning all that He had to teach, through any and all means through which He worked to reach me.

Peace to you mickiel.



Jack

[mickiel]

As I have said Jack,

I am not interested in your teaching me, but I am sure you can find students here, New Age Theology leaves a sticky curiosity that snares many. I am not attracted to mysticism and nature, and I have no need for a teacher.

I knew that was what you were after when I first met you. You went from trying to state that we held simular beliefs, then to an obvious attempt at dialog, then the true desire came forth, you want to teach me.

We do not hold simular beliefs, our dialog is from a different source, and it is impossible for you to teach me. You are transparent, and I see through you.

Peace.

[JackC]

As I have said Jack,

I am not interested in your teaching me, but I am sure you can find students here, New Age Theology leaves a sticky curiosity that snares many. I am not attracted to mysticism and nature, and I have no need for a teacher.

I knew that was what you were after when I first met you. You went from trying to state that we held simular beliefs, then to an obvious attempt at dialog, then the true desire came forth, you want to teach me.

We do not hold simular beliefs, our dialog is from a different source, and it is impossible for you to teach me. You are transparent, and I see through you.

Peace.



Yes, we are different.

What you call trying to teach others, I call seeking unity with the hearts of others. When Truth is seen together, hearts unite.

While there is a walking alone aspect of following Christ, the Spirit that indwells us urges us forward in search of family. Love forever seeks to flow and join with Itself in blissful unity, through the coming together of hearts.

Where two or more are gathered in My Name, there I will be also.

The Nature of the Holy Spirit is unity, making all that It touches into One.

Love is the glue that holds all of creation together.

However, humanity has been programmed to not trust, to fear ,and so puts up walls against one another, under the guise of self protection.

This is the greatest impediment to the Holy Spirit - the walls we erect around ourselves, convincing ourselves not to trust, not to let 'others in'.

It is the walls we erect around our hearts to keep others out that keeps out the Holy Spirit.

[Edited to add: Not to say that in a world so controlled by evil, it is not understandable that we do grow to mistrust and thus keep God out of our hearts. Such a world as this though, only has hope in the coming of Christ in Power.]



Jack

[mickiel]

Yes, we are different.

It is the walls we erect around our hearts to keep others out that keeps out the Holy Spirit.



Jack



There is nothing that can keep out the Holy Spirit when God decides to give it., espically whatever things we have erected around our hearts.

But listen, if what you truly seek is unity, then I am sure you will find it here, only not in me. I walk alone, and hold no intrest in the unity that men preach here. I cannot unify myself with things I do not Spiritually agree with. I will only sleep with my mate, no onelse. I like to see unity in others, good for them, but I have come out of that because it has not been good for me.

I just don't like too many influences crowding my belief, that has never been good for me.

To each his own, but I particularly do not like the New Age Theology influence, the mystics and unity with nature influences. And I have my reasons.

There can be no unity between me and you JackC, things you stand for, I just hold no need to have. There are plenty here for you, just not me.

Peace.

[Vigilante]

I have a couple questions.

Is the Bible the Word of God or not?
If yes, then all scripture must be interpreted with scripture, it ALL has to jive together.
If no, then on whose authority, or what method, do you determine what parts get thrown out, and why?

Is God not made a liar if universalism is true, by the teaching of Hell in the first place? God aught not say at the "pearly gates":
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that people will be rejected. This scripture assumes the person in question actually believes God exists and does miracles in his name and perhaps even thinks himself a righteous person. Yet God never knew him. How much moreso does God "know" the person who doesn't even believe in Him, OR try to do work in His name? What about the people who don't believe, don't do works, but further DESPISE the idea of God and curse His name on earth?
Your doctrine seems to suggest God drags everybody into Heaven kicking and screaming, even against their will. And turns Hell into, I don't know, a biblical scare tactic? It doesn't exist, and is not used or necessary, but the Bible teaches it anyway to scare more people into believing? Kind of like teaching young boys if they pee in the pool the invisible pool monster will come and steal their "parts". There is no such thing as a pool monster, but it helps scare kids into behaving properly. Is that what the doctrine of Hell is for? Is God a liar?

By God's very nature, he is logical and absolute and cannot be contradictory to himself. If the Bible is God's Word, you can never have two scriptures that contradict. One which says, "X happens" and another saying "X doesn't happen" in the same context. So it seems to me, by waving off or ignoring clear contradictory verses to this idea, you are making God illogical.

In my opinion and a vast majority of others, the doctrine of limited atonement is the best answer to making scripture jive with itself. It gives Hell a proper place. It allows God to say "depart from me", it allows all the scripture which teach salvation to a limited number, and so on.

There is nothing intrinsic to God that makes Him necessarily a savior of EVERY person. When this mess started, it was only Israel and the Jews which could earn salvation. Only later did it open to the gentiles as well. Unless you want to argue that, when God wiped out the evil earth in Noah's time, He was simply taking his "saved" children home to heaven, leaving poor Noah and his family to suffer a while longer. Perhaps if Noah had sinned more like the evil people around him, he could have gone home to heaven too?
Or (cause I haven't read this entire thread), are you teaching different levels of heaven and hell?
When God wiped out nations, and cities, was it because he just wanted to bring them home to heaven? Is the reward for treachery that you get to go to heaven first before the obedient people?

There is so much scripture and doctrine that makes no sense when adopting such ideas as universal salvation.

Also note that limited salvation would seem to send off the idea that those people who are not saved, are somehow forced out even as they beg to get in. In other words, that there are people sincerely trying to be Christian and be saved, but God sticks out his hand. It's not so. Those people unsaved are simply left to themselves, their sin nature is all they've got, they don't beg to get in, they don't WANT in. I've talked with people who say even if God DID exist, he wouldn't be worthy of worship anyway!

The bible says God will not be mocked. It says we will reap what we sow. He says "vengeance is mine, I will repay", it says there will be a battle of good and evil. And NONE of this makes sense if God is just taking everybody to Heaven. Is there some kind of civil war going on up there? What about Jesus descending down during death? descending where? Talking to who? What about Matt 7:13: "For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." It is obvious people go to Hell. So you must have some way to get them out? To be saved later perhaps?
Matt 10:28: "Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Why fear God who can do that, if in fact he never will?

Parable of the rich man is just about the best example here. From Luke 16:
"There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.' "
So here we've got somebody gone to Hell, and neither side can cross to the other, there is nothing that can be done. He is in torment.
Of course this is a parable, but if there is no meaning behind it, it is useless. It God just saying there is a nosebleed section of heaven? In the place where all tears are wiped away and there is nothing but joy and happiness, God segregates out those who thought different on earth? Is Heaven a place of some kind of racism of type of people? May it not be!

Perhaps you can summarize what this is all about, and where it comes from.


Peace

[mickiel]

I have a couple questions.

In my opinion and a vast majority of others, the doctrine of limited atonement is the best answer to making scripture jive with itself. It gives Hell a proper place. It allows God to say "depart from me", it allows all the scripture which teach salvation to a limited number, and so on.

There is nothing intrinsic to God that makes Him necessarily a savior of EVERY person.

Perhaps you can summarize what this is all about, and where it comes from.



Peace




You see this is the mentality, the belief, the mind and heartset that I want no part of. Limiting Salvation, or excluding billions of people, is the best answer to making scripture jive with itself. Then this most incredible merciless mentality is followed by another just as incredible observation, or intrinstic desire;" It gives Hell a PROPER PLACE." This is astounding dramatic belief, but this person feels that universal Salvation is an astounding dramatic belief.

This man thinks that Hell has a proper place, and his religion has taught him that. Trying to " Fit In" the interpitations of men, in order to make some sense out of the bible.

And then you ask me, one who you know you do not agree with, to make some sense out of the bible, you want me to summerize what this is all about.

When God planted the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, it was then that he said to humanity, " Depart from me." It was then that he locked all men into confusion and disobedience.

Hell does not have a proper place, nor does limited atonement fit into the theme of Salvation. But when there is no proper place in the human mind to understand God, the person simply willnot understand, and then will lean on their own understanding, they willnot trust in God, but in their own place of understanding, they simply acknowledge what makes sense to them.

And eternal torture is what always makes sense to merciless, unfruitfull, unbelieving, very limited minds. It is natural to find death in this way, to look for and find suffering, to search for honor in misery.

The Majesty of the Holy Scriptures is totally missed in this mindset.

In summary, John 13:7, what God and Jesus are doing now, believers simply do not understand. But they will in the afterlife.

Peace.

[Vigilante]

You see this is the mentality, the belief, the mind and heartset that I want no part of. Limiting Salvation, or excluding billions of people, is the best answer to making scripture jive with itself. Then this most incredible merciless mentality is followed by another just as incredible observation, or intrinstic desire;" It gives Hell a PROPER PLACE." This is astounding dramatic belief, but this person feels that universal Salvation is an astounding dramatic belief.[/QUOTE}
Does scripture teach it or not? Or is this an emotional rant? Scripture DOES teach things we may not like. Deal with it.

[QUOTE]This man thinks that Hell has a proper place, and his religion has taught him that. Trying to " Fit In" the interpitations of men, in order to make some sense out of the bible.
The Bible clearly states the proper place and use of Hell.

When God planted the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, it was then that he said to humanity, " Depart from me." It was then that he locked all men into confusion and disobedience.
The Bible actually says mankind would die after eating it.

Hell does not have a proper place, nor does limited atonement fit into the theme of Salvation. But when there is no proper place in the human mind to understand God, the person simply willnot understand, and then will lean on their own understanding, they willnot trust in God, but in their own place of understanding, they simply acknowledge what makes sense to them.
Yes, but we're trying to show you the proper understanding so you are NOT leaning on your own understanding, which you're doing.

And eternal torture is what always makes sense to merciless, unfruitfull, unbelieving, very limited minds. It is natural to find death in this way, to look for and find suffering, to search for honor in misery.
It makes sense because those inputed with Christ's righteousness go to Heaven, those on their own righteousness, end up in Hell. This is what the Bible teaches. Sorry you don't like it, but there it is in black and white.

The Majesty of the Holy Scriptures is totally missed in this mindset.

In summary, John 13:7, what God and Jesus are doing now, believers simply do not understand. But they will in the afterlife.
And do you know the context of that verse? UNLESS Jesus washes you clean, you cannot enter. Now where does it teach he WILL wash EVERYONE? Doesn't the Bible also say in Malachi 1:2,3: ""I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
And if that isn't enough, it is repeated in Romans 9: "Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

I challenge you to seriously read Romans 9 and tell me the same thing. You've got a false doctrine that is unbiblical and ENTIRELY based on emotional mind games.
Perhaps you don't give scripture the authority that I do, but regardless, before I even give your strange doctrine the time of day, show me where it is preached in the bible, in proper context and meaning. And show me how such verses jive with other verses that seem to go against the idea. Perhaps your interpretation is wrong and you're just grabbing a few "nice verses" to lend support to your emotional concerns, and forgetting the rest?

By what authority and what teaching does your doctrine come? Show it to me, without your argument by emotion.


Peace

[mickiel]

[QUOTEto

By what authority and what teaching does your doctrine come? Show it to me, without your argument by emotion.


Peace


I hold no intrest in showing you anything. I had no intrest in you before I came here, I have none now, and will have none in you when I leave. Nothing against your personality, I am sure that has its value, I am not interested in your belief, nor do I hold any intrest in changing your belief.

I have no doctrine, I just don't like yours. And I am not argueing with emotion, I am disagreeing using what I call common sense.

I neither got my belief by another man showing it to me, nor can I show it to another man. I didnot come here to show anyone anything, I am doing what is known as " Witnessing", I am bearing witness to what I believe in.

Because I believe in the Salvation of all of humanity, there is no need for me to convince anyone of anything.

Because there can be only one outcome of Gods will. Because thats how God is, and he likes the way he is, and so do I.

Peace.

[Vigilante]

Alright then, I won't argue, I had just hoped you'd validate your position with scripture, rather then "what I personally like to think."

Since you don't want to do that, and have no interest in me whatsoever, to show me anything, then there is no reason I should be in this thread listening to you. So I'm outta here.


Peace to you

[mickiel]

Belief in Salvation is not limited to " Who you can show it to." I hold absolutely no intrest in trying to " Show people who have already eaten of Jesus Bread", what they have eaten. Because you can tell them, and its like showing someone, who the very next second willnot know what you have said. They can look ast themselves in a mirror, and imediately forget. So I do not waste their time.

In John 13:18, Jesus tells of how a certain scripture will be fullfilled; " He who eats my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." People consume the word of God daily, and teach against pure Salvation, which is what Jesus is, pure Salvation and the eraseing of all sin. They teach that God has come for the righteous, or the Christians, not for the unrighteous, or the Sinners who are in need of repentance.

They eat the bread of Jesus, and lift up his heel against him, which means they do not teach that because Jesus has been lifted up, that he will draw all men to him, or to Salvation, they teach that Jesus lifted up only means Salvation to those who believe and receive him, turning Jesus own Gospel against him.

Christians feel that teaching a Salvation received only through free will, is a " Love expression" being rendered towared God, kind of like Judas " Kiss", but they are betraying the very reason Jesus was sent to earth, to save a WORLD, 1John 4:14.

And this is no great biblical secret, Salvation used to be " Common Knowledge", Jude 1:3 Common Salvation which was "once for ALL "delivered to the Saints. Yes delivered to the Saints, but it was for EVERYONE. Now the Christians horde it to themselves.

Look at Jude 24, " Now to him who is ABLE to KEEP you from stumbling." Here we were created by a God who is ABLE to keep EVERY LAST ONE of US from stumbling, and somehow Christians think free will is more important than Gods ability to do that for every person who is like me, too stupid to believe that free will controls Gods ability.

Look at Revelations 1:5, latter part of verse; To him who LOVES us, and released us from OUR SINS by his Blood." Why is there a need to see sinners who are unrepentant, being punished for sins that they are RELEASED from? Because Christians will tell you, the " Us being released from sins", is really just THEM! Only they will have salvation, and to hell with the rest of us.

Sin took its oppurtunity and killed all of humanity, Rom.7:11, and the Christians are announcing that not all of humanity is doomed, simply become a Christian and you will be counted as free from the curse. Be one of that " Small group", and be free will saved. No, no, Salvation is not theirs to sell to you through any conditions, its absolutely free, Rom.6:23, yes the wages of sin is death, so we all have died to that, but conversely, the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life, and THAT made possible by our Lord Jesus Christ.

But the Christians don't see the Salvation of every sinner in the Bible. They see the curse of the Law of Sin, the Curse of Disobedience, and the Curse of Unbelief, and the Curse of Hell. They think all these curses have doomed much of created humanity. The truth is that Christ BECAME ALL OF THOSE CURSES, and Redeemed us for it all, Gal. 3:13.

Thus NO CURSE is needed to be included in the preaching of the Gospel. When God entrust a person to speak his Gospel, it is not to please men, or show them things that can choke their challanges, it is preached to PLEASE GOD! 1 Thess.2:4. You don't need any speech to flatter men, GOD IS THE WITNESS that is to be pleased., vs.5.

My Validation, my validity, is in God. And to him alone.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Alright then, I won't argue, I had just hoped you'd validate your position with scripture, rather then "what I personally like to think."

Since you don't want to do that, and have no interest in me whatsoever, to show me anything, then there is no reason I should be in this thread listening to you. So I'm outta here.


Peace to you



You see this is the illusion many Christians are under, just blind and not knowing it. I have returned to Tweb just a few weeks ago, only for a few weeks vist, I have started 3 post, and participated in 2 others, and have posted nothing but scripture after scripture, the proof of this is there to read.

You get tired of responding to baseless unfounded unresearched attacks on what you have not done, when you already have done it.

Count the Scriptures I have used, and ask yourself why this person cannot see them.

Peace.