split from: Christology: Did Jesus lay down His divine nature

[Gatsby]

Jesus the man, born a man, lived as a man and then went into the wilderness where he meditated and communed with God.Christ.

He had manly attributes but claimed his spiritual attributes through the rising of the Christ Mind within him. It was the Christ Mind or God consciousness, which is the same thing really, which brought about the miracles. Jesus could easily forgive sin because sin is the most abused word of all the words in the Bible. It means ignoarance, not knowing in other words that You are God and God is You. There is no division. This Jesus saw when he attained enlightenment in the wilderness and this we too can attain but first there needs to be a emptying of all condioned thought and habit before the Christ mind can rise and govern as was meant to govern each and every one of us.

Love is the Key

[Berean Todd]

Jesus the man, born a man, lived as a man and then went into the wilderness where he meditated and communed with God.Christ.

He had manly attributes but claimed his spiritual attributes through the rising of the Christ Mind within him. It was the Christ Mind or God consciousness, which is the same thing really, which brought about the miracles. Jesus could easily forgive sin because sin is the most abused word of all the words in the Bible. It means ignoarance, not knowing in other words that You are God and God is You. There is no division. This Jesus saw when he attained enlightenment in the wilderness and this we too can attain but first there needs to be a emptying of all condioned thought and habit before the Christ mind can rise and govern as was meant to govern each and every one of us.

Love is the Key

John 1:1 In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, lgory s of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Jesus did not obtain some higher consciousness of some pantheistic god-in-all-of-us. He was the very pre-existent creator of all things.

Colossians 1:16"For by Him (Christ) all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authroities - all things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, He is the begining the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be pre-eminent"

[Gatsby]

Of course Jesus attained a higher consciousness and became One with God/Christ. The laying down is the laying down of the moral mind which is ruled by the ego, the mind that thinks in terms of me and mine which is not the God Mind. This by the way is the 'crucifixtion that all must go through although you will no doubt not beleive this, but crucifixtion of the lower mind is something all will have to go through, not in the same manner as Jesus though.

The word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. That means of course that God's Perfect Mind dwelt on earth and inhabited the fleshly bodies of those dwelling on earth. If it doesn't then really the whole scripture must be faulty, most of it anyway. I say that because I acknowledge that there is Truth in the Bible but it cannot be seen by mortal minds. It has been veiled like many scriptures before it.

Thanks for your reply anyway, it is appreciated.

Regards

[smaneck]

The word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. That means of course that God's Perfect Mind dwelt on earth and inhabited the fleshly bodies of those dwelling on earth. I

That's a very different thing from saying Jesus 'attained' this consciousness. The function of stories like the boy Jesus discussing theology with the priests is that His knowledge was innate, not attained.

His was not a station to which we all can aspire.

[Gatsby]

Of course his was a station or state if you wish to call it that which we can all aspire to. If not why study the Bible of go to church, any church. Jesus did attain Christ Consiousness, sorry if you cant understand that. He did say I beleive, that what He did, other's would do and more would they do. Now if that is not telling you that you too can aspire to Oneness with God, then I dont know what is.

This of course is a common stance to take. it really comes down to a issue of self worth and most of the populations do not see themselves as having self work when put in contect with Jesus of the Bible. But when He states that you too can do what He did are you seriously telling me He got it wrong?

Regards

[Bernie]

Of course his was a station or state if you wish to call it that which we can all aspire to. If not why study the Bible of go to church, any church. Jesus did attain Christ Consiousness, sorry if you cant understand that.
I too believe the Bible's esoteric and spiritual sense is its greater sense. But in the end, the "esoteric" is ultimately rational in its greatest sense, and will show the Bible to be truly the most inspired, God-breathed text available to mankind, even though the modern literalist interpretive framework has corrupted Scripture's spiritual meaning..

There's some sense in which pantheistic notions may play out in the final analysis, but the oneness with God as a "sameness" is pretty obviously not what is revealed in Scripture from a more orthodox view. There are probably any number of ways we will be made "one" with God which do not deny God His majesty while placing man on His throne.

[TyRockwell]

Of course his was a station or state if you wish to call it that which we can all aspire to. If not why study the Bible of go to church, any church. Jesus did attain Christ Consiousness, sorry if you cant understand that.
Jesus knew Who he was. That was self-consciousness without the self-doubting connotation. He was The Christ, and he was God. He did not attain those states. Jesus said that He was the Light of the world, and that He was the Truth. See John 3:19-21
19. And the judgement is this:
though the light has come into the world
people have preferred
darkness to the light
because their deeds were evil.
20. And indeed, everybody who does wrong
hates the light and avoids it,
to prevent his actions from being shown up;
21. but whoever does the truth
comes out into the light,
so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God."

The scriptures tell us "God is Light, and in him is no darkness at all." But men walk in darkness; not only by choice, but because it is man's nature. God bridged that gap through Jesus. Surely, man can seek truth and come into the light, but there still remains the darkness in our nature that can not be left behind by attainment to something higher. It requires a change in our nature to be truly like him. The image of God that we were created in makes us able to be made new in our nature, but we are not God and cannot attain to God-likeness without a miraculous change in our nature, though that is available to us through Christ. It is not attained by enlightenment, but by the giving over of ourselves to him, in dependence and trust.


This of course is a common stance to take. it really comes down to a issue of self worth and most of the populations do not see themselves as having self work when put in contect with Jesus of the Bible. But when He states that you too can do what He did are you seriously telling me He got it wrong?

Regards
I believe more than most here in this cessationist Hell that we can and will do what he did. But it takes more than having a better self-worth. Too many Christians have a 'permanently marred' lack of self-worth and they think it is humility, when it is really fear or doubt in the miracle of regenerating faith and what is possible for us through it. Still God must get all the glory for the gift, and not us for any achievement of worth.

Peace,
Ty

[Gatsby]

Still God must get all the glory for the gift, and not us for any achievement of worth.

I agree totaly with this. Of our own selves, we can do nothing.
It is the Father within who does the work.

Regards

[IncRus]

Jesus the man, born a man, lived as a man and then went into the wilderness where he meditated and communed with God.Christ.

He had manly attributes but claimed his spiritual attributes through the rising of the Christ Mind within him. It was the Christ Mind or God consciousness, which is the same thing really, which brought about the miracles. Jesus could easily forgive sin because sin is the most abused word of all the words in the Bible. It means ignoarance, not knowing in other words that You are God and God is You. There is no division. This Jesus saw when he attained enlightenment in the wilderness and this we too can attain but first there needs to be a emptying of all condioned thought and habit before the Christ mind can rise and govern as was meant to govern each and every one of us.

Love is the Key

Please state your source of all these. Facts confirm, opinions confuse.

Anyone's opinion is as good as anyone else's. There should not even be any discussion at all if everyone were to rely on their own opinion.

[Gatsby]

Yes of course I agree with you that opinion is just that. And while everyone is entitled to their opinion that does not mean that they have the Truth. In fact whenever your source comes from, if it is not coming from within yourself or oursleves then the remarks made should be discerned carefully and not just adopted as the Truth.
They may well be Truth or true but not necessarily the case.

This is only one of very many writings that can be pondered on but I certainly would disern for myself as to what I would think and accept or reject.


What a mistake to dream of God far off in the skies when the spirit of the Universal Father lives within your own mind! [The Urantia Book, p. 64, par. 6]

Regards

[TyRockwell]

This is too weird. Worse than that. If you are not born again you have very little of God the Father in you, just the image of God that you were created in.

[John Goddard]

That's a very different thing from saying Jesus 'attained' this consciousness. The function of stories like the boy Jesus discussing theology with the priests is that His knowledge was innate, not attained.

His was not a station to which we all can aspire.

In Trinity the Son proceeds eternally from Father, so there is no real start point in which he would not have divine powers. Which within the scope of Trinity, means to me he must had laid them down, then started attaining them again from God later on.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So kenosis/emptying of his God powers before incarnation and before he was born would seem to be the most reasonable answer, to me, within the Trinity view.

If not, what divine powers does it say Jesus had that were not given to him at some point? I don't think his experience in the Temple at 12 really qualifies. He may have been a wise boy like Solomon and been given knowledge by God, and smarter than older rabbis, but it doesn't necessarily mean he had inherent divine knowledge at that time.

[Gatsby]

"The Birthless and Deathless ...I "

There is a passage in the Bhagavad-Gita that is rarely understood and sometimes very harshly criticized.

He who shall say, "Lo! I have slain a man!"
He who shall think, "Lo! I am slain!" those both
Know naught! Life cannot slay. Life is not slain!
Never the spirit was born; the spirit shall cease to be never;

This almost seems as if Krishna, who is speaking, were condoning murder, but it does not mean that. It means that I cannot be slain, and I cannot slay. Then what about the person who is slain or does the slaying? Ah, no! Life is never slain, and that is where true identity comes in: I am not the body that is buried. I am the life that is continuous, and that life which I am is never slain. That life which I am, even as the life of the one I slay, is not slain. We look at the fallen body and we forget that I is not the body, and the body is not I. I is infinite, incorporeal spiritual being. Regardless of what you do or do not do to the body, I remain forever and forever and forever. There is no end to the I that I am.


Joel Goldsmith

The Mystical I

There are many excellent books written by the late Joel Goldsmith. Also one of my favourite authors is Dr Murdo MacDonald Bayne who was Scottish by birth and travelled in his later years to the Himalayas, to Tibet, there meeting many 'Master's of the spiritual arts who taught his well. His teachings and his travels there are recorded in 2 free e books called Beyond The Himalayas and The Yoga of Christ Consciousness.

These 2 books are worth their weight in gold for obtaining understanding in the art of the Spirit. The I AM That I Am

Regards

[Gatsby]

Love One Another
===============

Love one another, forgive one another, for true love begins with forgiveness as each one perpetrates an act, first forgiving one's self all others, and then forgiving all others, then by careful meditation and practice of the One Law which so long ago formulated the structure of the Atlantean culture, the One Law that echoes and re-echos through all religious faiths. . . that Law which states that everyone should consider the welfare and the feelings of others above self, that law which is echoed by the Law of Mercy, the Law of Gratitude. If you follow this law, and those precepts then shall there be brotherly love. The shadow forces and projections which represent strife, sin, error, disease and hatred in the world will be those which shall be overcome.

You have heard it said; "Love your enemies! Open the minds of those who close their minds to you and affect with goodness that which they attempt to affect and that which is error. Use your strength, your intelligence, your developed understanding and awareness in such a way that you may cope with any negative situation, not only to minimize it, but to bring about that which no longer needs to exist and through this effort you will accomplish that which is good and right and which is the Will of God.

The Creator asks that all first consider how well they serve. For that which is love, and that which is goodness, comes through service and devotion. When people sense a closeness to God, the Creator, the Source, each is asked, "How many have you served and how well?" This is the only question you will be asked when you pass from the earth plane.

All that emanates from the Godhead is in a state of love. Love just is.

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* Note: All Rights Reserved by The Light Circle Ezine® (c)2002-2009

[Gatsby]

Being born again does not relate to being a 'born again Christian' as most think it is. It relates to being born of the Spirit.

You see how meanings from orthodox Christianity are not always true.

We also must worship God in Spirit, not in buildings given different names for the different religions or offshoots. The buildings are meaningless in the scheme of things, the worship proceeds forth from the heart of man/woman/child.

We are the sons and daughters of God. And until this is known by all, God is still far away from you. We all have Divine Powers, Jesus demonstrated that well enough, only thing is the orthodoxy dont believe that. They, the clergies of orthodoxy would have you beleive that 'They themselves' are the go-betweens for God, forgiving your sins, they themselves are blind to Truth and hence you actually have the blind leading the blind which I think was mentioned in the Bible. It is so.

Regards

Regards

[John Goddard]

Being born again does not relate to being a 'born again Christian' as most think it is. It relates to being born of the Spirit.

I think it refers to the resurrection.

[apostoli]

Hello Gatsby,

Jesus the man, born a man, lived as a man and then went into the wilderness where he meditated and communed with God.Christ.

He had manly attributes but claimed his spiritual attributes through the rising of the Christ Mind within him. It was the Christ Mind or God consciousness, which is the same thing really, which brought about the miracles. Jesus could easily forgive sin because sin is the most abused word of all the words in the Bible. It means ignoarance, not knowing in other words that You are God and God is You. There is no division. This Jesus saw when he attained enlightenment in the wilderness and this we too can attain but first there needs to be a emptying of all condioned thought and habit before the Christ mind can rise and govern as was meant to govern each and every one of us.

Love is the KeyIt seems noone has yet pointed out to you, the flaw in your speculation = the words Christ and Budha are non equivalent terms. A Christ is appointed/annointed by God, a Budha is enlightened by self analysis. In the Christian scriptures Jesus, from his very birth, is depicted as Dharma perfected. In his humanity he is depicted as the one and only jina. All others who conquer, are shadows of him. Thus he is the one and only bhagavan (Lord).

According to the apostle Paul, Jesus had pre-existence in perfection and he emptied himself -emptying of all conditioned thought and habit - before becoming man.

Peace

[Gatsby]

I think it refers to the resurrection.

Thanks!! This may be the case. I am refering to the number of people who declare themselves 'born again Christian's'. These ones do not understand that one must be born of the Spirit..

All of us are born of Angelic Birth. We set that aside when we incarnate in this Earthly Realm.
And yet our purpose for being here is to serve God and soul growth. Our bodies, the fleshly ones that we inhabit right now are God's Temples and through these Temples God does his work. But first we have to get our mortal minds and the conditioning of them out the way to allow God to work through us. Our Minds must become crystal clear so to speak, to allow this to happen, any sort of discord within the mind prevents God from working through us. Hence the dying of the mortal mind and the allowing of the Divine Mind/ Christ Mind to speak and work through us, which it did with Jesus in the fullness if Itself. Jesus was the only one of all the prophets who had this fullness of the One God work through Him. He laid down his mortal mind and he laid down his fleshly body to take it up again when he chose too, the fleshly body I mean here.. How did He do that, through the laws of Spirit which he knew so well and lived by.

We are all in effect, the 'fallen angel's of the Bible. Our sin is our ignorance of who we are. We are One with God at all times, in all places yet we have forgotten that. This too is what we are here to remember.

Some like to call this a game that the Creator is playing, after all He did not make our laws, he made Spiritual Laws and it is these we must come to know. Earth is a schooling ground for souls. One other thing we need to do I think is lighten up and not take ourselves so seriously.

I hope this is understood.

Regards:smile:

[Gatsby]

Sorry, I missed your post earlier. To quote you as follows:

According to the apostle Paul, Jesus had pre-existence in perfection and he emptied himself -emptying of all conditioned thought and habit - before becoming man.

Is this not just what I have said? Or maybe you dont understand.
We all have a pre-existence in perfection but we have all fallen far away from the state.

Buddah did acheive enlightenment that is true, so too did Jesus when he embodied the Christ. I said in my previous post that Jesus was the greatest of them all. What more can I say, this is not speculation I hasten to add. Go within and verify this for yourself. That is the only way you will know what Truth is.

Regards

[Gatsby]

HI Again, I meant to answer your post re the Buddha and I quote you here:

a Budha is enlightened by self analysis.

This is the dissolving of all conditioning in the mortal mind. It is quite a bit more than self analysis because it is ridding oneself of the false Self. This is what enlightement is and this is what the Buddah did. Once he had rid Himslef of all that was false, illusionary, the REAL Self became known to Him. The Real Self is that which we call God. The One Life and the only life.

Jesus most certainly did this too but went even further, as I have previously said. He rid himself of the lower self, or mortal self as we call it and allowed the full Divine Mind to work through him. This Divine Mind we know as the Christ Mind or Christ Consciousness. Jesus often said that He did not speak it was His Father in Heaven who spoke the words and He gave God his rightfull place by saying this, acknowledging that of his own self he could do nothing, but it was the work of the Father within Him who did the work.. Christ is the anointed one, the Son who is the go between the father and us, his children

Also it may serve to point out here that Jesus personalised the realtionship he had with God/Christ by calling him Father. This I think has been the cause of much of the church's litteral interpetation of the scriptures. It would be right as well to call God Father - Mother if we are going to personalise God. This of course would not suit the orthodox churches purpose I have to say as they totally depend on their parishioners wholding them in awe and allowing them to act as go betweens for the masses. By the very fact that the R.C church calls it's priests Father, you can see that they have their own interests to serve. This I know will not go down well with the orthodoxy of any religous persuasion but we are nearing the end of the Piscean age and the New age of Aquarius is dawning.

Regards:smile:

[apostoli]

Hello Gatsby,

Sorry, I missed your post earlier.Ditto.

According to the apostle Paul, Jesus had pre-existence in perfection and he emptied himself -emptying of all conditioned thought and habit - before becoming man.Is this not just what I have said? Or maybe you dont understand. We all have a pre-existence in perfection but we have all fallen far away from the state.I may have missed your argument or misunderstood you. While I'm aware of debates in ancient Greek philosophy and divided opinions in the eastern religions, I'm not aware of any Hebrew or Christian scriptures that suggest that we all have a pre-existence in perfection. To me the idea is self refuting. That is: if we "pre-existed in perfection" what is the motivation for ourselves to become incarnate (does perfection seek imperfection?), or how is it possible that being perfect, we become defiled by our incarnation, and then need to find perfection?

Buddah did acheive enlightenment that is true, so too did Jesus when he embodied the Christ. I said in my previous post that Jesus was the greatest of them all. What more can I say, this is not speculation I hasten to add. Go within and verify this for yourself. That is the only way you will know what Truth is.Indeed! Though I'd say Buddah achieved enlightenment but enlightenment was inherent to Jesus (see John 1:4)

HI Again, I meant to answer your post re the Buddha and I quote you here:a Buddha is enlightened by self analysis.This is the dissolving of all conditioning in the mortal mind.Imu, it is more. To become a Buddha one must be in control of all appetites. Hunger and need for human association are needs that we are born with. Imu, to be a Buddha or to approach the eastern idea of enlightenment, one must completely divest the self of the self, especially any need for human association - all things are maya, including enlightenment.

It is quite a bit more than self analysis because it is ridding oneself of the false Self. This is what enlightement is and this is what the Buddah did. Once he had rid Himself of all that was false, illusionary, the REAL Self became known to Him. The Real Self is that which we call God. The One Life and the only life.Did Siddhartha Gautama who became the Buddah teach that there is a God? Or did he teach that the concept of God/s and godhood is maya?

This is what enlightement is and this is what the Buddah did. Once he had rid Himslef of all that was false, illusionary, the REAL Self became known to Him. The Real Self is that which we call God. The One Life and the only life. Jesus most certainly did this too but went even further, as I have previously said. He rid himself of the lower self, or mortal self as we call it and allowed the full Divine Mind to work through him.Imu, he allowed full God consciousness to direct his life, even unto death he was obedient to his father's will (Phil 2:8). Imo, such highlights the difference between new age movements and Christianity - new age spiritualising is introverted (introspection) whilst Christianity is meant to be extroverted (extrospection).

This Divine Mind we know as the Christ Mind or Christ Consciousness. Jesus often said that He did not speak it was His Father in Heaven who spoke the words and He gave God his rightfull place by saying this, acknowledging that of his own self he could do nothing, but it was the work of the Father within Him who did the work. Christ is the anointed one, the Son who is the go between the father and us, his childrenIn principal, I agree. However...

Also it may serve to point out here that Jesus personalised the realtionship he had with God/Christ by calling him Father.In the Christian scriptures the Father is never identified as a Christ, but rather as the one who appoints a christ/s (hebrew: messiah/s). In the OT there were many. Even Cyrus, the ruler of Babylon was appointed as Messiah (Christ) over the Israelites (Isaiah 45:1).

Imo, if one listens carefully to the words of Jesus, he came as the Christ to afflict, but as the Son of God to be the benefactor of those who follow his path. For instance: he says in one place that he and his father judge the world, but in another he says that they do not judge the world. There is no contradiction in his words, when one understands that it is we who condemn ourselves by not being obedient to the Father's will for us. Imo, the Christian scriptures do not teach maya but reality (God's intent for the mankind as an extroverted species. see Genesis 1:26-28).

This I think has been the cause of much of the church's literal interpetation of the scriptures. It would be right as well to call God Father - Mother if we are going to personalise God. This of course would not suit the orthodox churches purpose I have to say as they totally depend on their parishioners holding them in awe and allowing them to act as go betweens for the masses. By the very fact that the R.C church calls it's priests Father, you can see that they have their own interests to serve.The RC also has ranks of mother, brother and sister. Just as one would expect of an organised spiritual society. Would it make a difference if these benedictions were replaced by some other title (eg: pastor, yogi etc). In all of the world's societies the language equivalent of "father" is a title of respect given to any male that is considered a benefactor.

This I know will not go down well with the orthodoxy of any religous persuasion but we are nearing the end of the Piscean age and the New age of Aquarius is dawning.Depends on which astrologer you are inclined to read. Imu, many say we are already in the age of Aquarius or on its cusp. Some hold it is still hundreds, if not thousands of years away. But even if astrology could be relied upon, and the age of Aquarius is upon us, the full influence of the Aquarian age is thousands of years away = we must first experience the influences of Libra, and then Gemini, before Aquarius is realised in itself.

Peace

[Gatsby]

Hi, I will respond to your post in a while. But in the meantime I wish to give you this channeled writing as it will explain better I think where Iam in the scheme of things, if I can put it that way. It lets you know what I think better than I can explain it maybe, in the short term at least.

This is channeled material from a e magazine and I will admit that I wouldn't normally quote from this things but on occasion it serves the purpose to do so.

Regards
Gatsby


HEAVEN #3008
=====================
The Knower Within You
February 18, 2009
=====================

God said:

Remember often what you are here on Earth for. You must know by now that you are not here for your body. You are not here for possessions. You are not here for wrangling. You are not here to compete. You are not here to win arguments. You are not here to get A's in tests any more than you are here to flunk tests. You are not here to be on best behavior or worst behavior.

You are simply here for your joy and for the joy of others, which is another way of saying that you are here for Me. I am at the top of your list. In fact, there is no list. I am the Whole Story.

Joy is paramount, yet it is not a pursuit. It is a result, beloveds. You are here for Me. You are here on Earth on My behalf. This means that you are here to learn to accept the love that emanates from Me and to learn how to give it all over the place. Pure and simple.

You may have sometimes thought that you are here to protect yourself and to avoid conflagrations. To avoid anything is not the same as creating harmony. You want true harmony, not only an appearance. Whatever obstructions may exist in your heart, they have to go. Love is not happy just to float on the surface. Love wants to fill your heart all the way. Love wants to blaze a trail of you across the Universe.

Sometimes you feel you have arrived, and then, alas, sometimes you feel far from love, and yet I am so bold as to tell you right to your face that you possess all the love that I do. Because My love stationed within you may not be available at a given moment does not mean that you don't have it.

The thing in life that makes it hard for you is that the ground rules seem to keep changing. True harmony seems to exist one moment, and then the next it's gone, and you don't know how or where. In terms of the relative world, you live on slippery ground. Your house is jerry-built.

And yet, underneath it all, is a magnificent beautiful foundation. This foundation is never shaken. It remains true. And it remains true within you. Even in the middle of an earthquake, your foundation cannot be shaken. That which is called God is your foundation, and I have been planted within you. I am within you. You are the carrier of Heaven and all that Heaven entails.

Your body can quiver, yet the God in you is unshakeable. Whatever you may feel, nothing can shake the Truth of you. Nothing can wound it. Nothing can exile it. No matter what you -- the you you imagine you are -- may go through, the God in you is impervious to it. Therefore, you are impervious. Nothing in the extant world can make a dent in you. Your body can be hurt, your feelings can be hurt, you can experience loss, and your body can die, yet you are never ever vanquished. You are eternal. You are not here and gone tomorrow. Body, yes. You, no.

You are never ever without Me. You are never ever away from Me even for a moment. What you may think and what Reality is may be two different things, for your thoughts are fickle, and Reality is staunch. Beloveds, you are Myself on Earth. You are Me and nothing but Me. You are, of course, a marvel at diguise. You fool everyone. You fool yourself. And yet there is the Knower within you Who is never fooled.

Courtesy of www.heaven letters.org

[Gatsby]

Hi Apostoli, coming back now to your post on the Buddah.

I really think that your reply's are saying the same thing as Iam saying.

Re the Buddah relating that all things are maya, including God I would imagine that this would be the case. Iam saying imagine because Iam not a excerpt on the Buddah but from the spiritual Master's in Tibet, this indeed would be what they would say.

And yet there must be Something, It or whatever you want to call it that brought into being all that lives in the seen and unseen realms. This is the first cause of everything and all else is secondary and so on, this being known as cause and effect as you will know. So, there has to be a first cause and that is what we call God. Even though this first cause is purely Light and it's reflection is us, being in It's mind then can we truly say that it is maya also. I dont personally think so, you may disagree with me.

The one thing I did want to reply to was this quote re new age;

Originally posted by Gatsby
This is what enlightement is and this is what the Buddah did. Once he had rid Himslef of all that was false, illusionary, the REAL Self became known to Him. The Real Self is that which we call God. The One Life and the only life. Jesus most certainly did this too but went even further, as I have previously said. He rid himself of the lower self, or mortal self as we call it and allowed the full Divine Mind to work through him.
Imu, he allowed full God consciousness to direct his life, even unto death he was obedient to his father's will (Phil 2:8). Imo, such highlights the difference between new age movements and Christianity - new age spiritualising is introverted (introspection) whilst Christianity is meant to be extroverted (extrospection).

Spiritual lives are not introverted, that is not how they are lived. One must as you said yourself re the Buddah, disern all that is false, the false Self to be precise, but once that has happened, then and only then can It/God take it's rightfull place within us and direct His thoughts directly outwards. We are only aware of what is ;'outside us' through our mortal senses. Without these, there would be no outside us and as we create in our minds what we experience in the external world, we need to know that first these things are created in the inward mind via our thoughts. Thoughts become things!! This is a true saying from a master teacher called Dr Murdo MacDonald Bayne and only true introspection can verify that these words are true. .

I think that answers your post. If you feel I have not answered all that you wish to be answered, then just let me know

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

I think it refers to the resurrection.

No, it doesn't refer to the resurrection either. It is being born again this time not in the material sense, but in the spiritual sense. Being born in Sprit which means being co-creators with God.

We must of course come to the realisation of Oneness with Spirit through our own efforts of self inquiry and not just accept blindly what we are told by religion, any religion. If we just repeat all that we have been told while in our religious orthodoxy then we become mere imitators, to quote a spirital master and teacher, Dr Murdo MacDonald Bayne, therefore we must do the inward searching to verify things for ourslef.

Today I read the following and it says it all in a nutshell really although I know a little about Theosophy I wouldn't claim to know a lot. However, reading this made absolute sense to me, maybe it will for you too if your minds are not crystalised in relgiosity.

Regards Gatsby



Organisations and Spirituality
=========================

Jiddu Krishnamurti was born in the year 1895 into a Brahmin family in India. During his adolescence, he met prominent theosophist C.W. Leadbeater by chance at the Theosophical Society grounds. As a clairvoyant, Leadbeater believed Krishnamurti would become a great teacher and "vehicle" for an expected World Teacher. Krishnamurti was subsequently raised under the strict tutelage of the leaders of the Society for his "role."

When Krishnamurti grew up into a young man and took over as the head of the Order of the Star, he stunned everyone by disavowing the idea of the coming of the World Teacher, and dissolving the worldwide organization established to support it. As a young man, Krishnamurti already understood that spiritual truths cannot be organized or imposed upon people.

In his dissolution speech, he said:

Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

Ironically, many members of the Order could not understand Krishnamurti's intentions and some even turned against the man they believed to be their guru or messiah.

But Krishnamurti maintained:

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole-not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal-I desire those, who seek to understand me to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect.

Krishnamurti spent the rest of his life traveling the world as an individual speaker, speaking to large and small groups, as well as with interested individuals.

I first encountered the transcript of Krishnamurti's brilliant dissolution speech (www.kinfonet.org/Biography/dissolution.pdf) not long after we started Cosmic Lighthouse. What Krishnamurti said left an indelible mark on me. He might be blunt in his speech but his words still question our complacency and deepest motives in our spiritual quests today.

Is forming an organisation a bad thing? Not necessarily so. Sometimes, when two or more gather, the effectiveness and creativity resulted from the collaborations could be more than the sum of its parts. It is perhaps the intentions of the people who formed the organisation that matters. Krishnamurti apparently dissolved his own organisation when he realised that the members are creating a guru out of him and not following their own inner divine guidances.

Every now and then, I would ask myself the same kind of questions Krishnamurti had raised. Why have we started Cosmic Lighthouse? What are we trying to do for the readers? Are we trying to create a following? Am I addicted to spirituality or any teachers? Am I being spiritual for the sake of being spiritual? Am I stuck in my spiritual path? Do I even need to have a spiritual path? Am I a more loving person today than yesterday?

Eventually after all the questioning, I realize that truth is simply love expressed on the earth plane. When we are true to ourselves, it is an act of love to ourselves. When we do something for others in love, it is truth in action. When we respond to others in a truly loving manner, it is because we see their true nature as God in incarnations. Spirituality is thus simply a journey to rediscover and become unconditional love.

When we look around us, we find that many people are not involved in any form of spirituality. For instance, my wife is very new to what I do and the idea of spirituality. I also haven't told her much about my work. She certainly does not think of herself as a spiritual person at all. Nevertheless, she is less judgmental of my own father whom I find much difficulty living with. I hardly communicate with him but my wife, on the other hand, is clearly more loving and understanding towards my father. This made me realize that all my spiritual knowledge and wisdom still falls short when compared to the simple acts of unconditional love she did for my dad.

If we pay more attention to our surroundings, I believe we would also find many other examples. I would occasionally come across homeless old men and women feeding abandoned stray dogs and cats. My 6-month old baby niece smiles happily at everyone who plays with her regardless of our background or self-worth. There are also many kind-hearted volunteers who are not religious, unlikely to ever read Cosmic Lighthouse, and don't know a thing about metaphysics, yet they care unconditionally for the orphans or destitute. United States prisons today use dogs for prisoner therapy, and the canines are never shy of showering their love for anyone - murderers or petty thieves.

Spirituality is ultimately a label we put on ourselves or others. I believe one does not have to be spiritual in any way - to follow any spiritual path, join any spiritual movement, or form any organisation. If a person has a lot of love and gives it freely, he or she is already a demonstration of God in action. Having said this, it is really a paradox since we are spiritual beings having temporary human incarnations. We are already spiritual in every sense. It is only our fears that prevent us from fully expressing the love that we truly are. I believe everyone of us who has carried out an unkind or selfish act, did it out of fear in one form or another.

Who amongst us could say he has never hurt or judge another one in words or actions? Who could claim that she has utterly no fear of anything? Evidently, the majority of us still have a lot of inner work to do to heal ourselves in order to unclog the fountains of love that have always existed within us. Krishnamurti knew that very well when he said, "My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."

When we are truly free to express who we are, I believe we would be so overflowed with such intensity of love that we could not but pour our love out to everyone and everywhere. We would then once again reacquaint ourselves with the feeling of home - a state of absolute unconditional love.

About the Columnist

Joyouschee hopes to add love, light and joy to the world through Cosmic Lighthouse Metaphysics Magazine which is made possible by many other wonderful contributors, which he co-founded with Lee. http://www.cosmiclighthouse.com *

[John Goddard]

No, it doesn't refer to the resurrection either. It is being born again this time not in the material sense, but in the spiritual sense. Being born in Sprit which means being co-creators with God.

I think you are right but the culmination is being born into eternal life, else your spirit goes to destruction.

[Heterodoxus]

In re, the title of this thread (which appears to be the only debatable issue in it), I offer this: Jesus of Nazareth was, IMO, no more "divine" than the Buddha, Gandhi, Dr. King, or anyone else who has taught/exemplified an important gospel of benevolent and beneficial societal relationships and tolerance.

Neither he nor they had a supernatural "divine nature" in the manner of and appropriate to a god to "lay down" (institute, enact, or establish [WordWeb Dictionary]) in a Jehovic-Messianic manner. Rather, Jesus had an expression of divinity ("the Word," albeit a subtle word of godliness by, and goodness to, each other and their neighbors) to share with the people in his time and place. Sadly, that Word seemingly wasn't received well then, now, and at any point in between.

And so it goes . . . . . :sigh:

[Gatsby]

No, it doesn't relate to the resurrection although I can see how you may think that is the case.

Being born again in the spiritual sense means that we are born again of the Spirit, the material world is left behind even though we still live in the material plane or realm.

Jesus said 'He was not of this world' and also I'am in the world but not of it' cant quote the actual chapter and verse for you but this is what He meant.

Regards
Gatsby

[Heterodoxus]

.....
Jesus said 'He was not of this world' and also I'am[sic] in the world but not of it' cant quote the actual chapter and verse for you but this is what He meant.
Perhaps you're referring to JN 8:23; 15:19, or 17:14-16? If so:

JN 8:23 might be better read as you originated in this world, I didn't originate in it
JN 15:19 better reads as you are out of time and place in this world
JN 17:14-16 also might be better read as:
14 they are out of time and place in this world, even as I didn't originate in this world
15 I don't ask that you remove them from this world
16 they are out of time and place in this world, even as I didn't originate in this world These readings are, IMO, more in line with the thoughts expressed in the Greek wording of these verses, and better indicate "what He meant." :smile:

[Ormly]

"Did Jesus lay down His divine nature?"

No. It was given that He should protect it.

[Gatsby]

No, Jesus lay down his mortal nature and then embodied his Divine Nature.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

I think you are right but the culmination is being born into eternal life, else your spirit goes to destruction.

Please dont think like that. It makes me sad to hear you say that because:

You are already immortal and have eternal life. The Spirit cannot be destroyed. Why?

Because God is Infinite and Eternal and He is in you and you are in Him.

We live and move and have our Being in Him. If we didn't then we wouldn't be here, conscious of anything at all.

Regards
Gatsby

[Ormly]

No, Jesus lay down his mortal nature and then embodied his Divine Nature.

Regards
Gatsby

Jesus didn't lay down anything until He went to the cross.

[John Goddard]

Please dont think like that. It makes me sad to hear you say that because:

You are already immortal and have eternal life. The Spirit cannot be destroyed. Why?

Because God is Infinite and Eternal and He is in you and you are in Him.

I go by the Bible. Since God is infinitely powerful He can destroy your soul in Hell

Don't be sad,

Matthew 10:28...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 7:13 ...broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

[barnasha]

It could be said to someone who might understand it, that one cannot do away with his or her "divine nature", one can only be ignorant of it.

I go by the Bible. Since God is infinitely powerful He can destroy your soul in Hell

"biblically" speaking what we refer to now as 'hell' is more of an event than a place.

and it is not the destruction of a soul, but rather the spirit's torment from being apart from God for eternity, and the terror of knowing it and being unable to change it since it is too late.

[Ormly]

It could be said to someone who might understand it, that one cannot do away with his or her "divine nature", one can only be ignorant of it.

A divine Nature can, of necessity, depart.

[John Goddard]

It could be said to someone who might understand it, that one cannot do away with his or her "divine nature", one can only be ignorant of it.

"biblically" speaking what we refer to now as 'hell' is more of an event than a place.

As far as Purgatory, sure, it's a spiritual state as your body lies in the earth.

But as for the Lake of Fire, if you are physically resurrected being delivered from the sea, death, and hell, and the earth literally burns up as I interpret it, you are going to physically and spiritually go somewhere else, this earth will be gone.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:13-14 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

2 Peter 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


and it is not the destruction of a soul, but rather the spirit's torment from being apart from God for eternity, and the terror of knowing it and being unable to change it since it is too late.

Maybe temporarily for Purgatory. But maybe you just cease to exist eternally in the Lake of Fire. I haven't decided yet.

[Gatsby]

I go by the Bible. Since God is infinitely powerful He can destroy your soul in Hell

Don't be sad,

Matthew 10:28...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 7:13 ...broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Tell me John if God Is Love, then where does fear come into the scheme of things?

Love and fear are 2 different things and with Love there is no fear of anything, just love and more love. Love is all that Love knows. So, if you are told to fear God or fear something like the so called Devil you know instantly that what your taught to fear is not the truth, bibical or otherwise. Fear and engendering fear in someone is how people keep control of you. Are you wanting other's to control you for the rest of your life?

Regards
Gatsby:smile:

[John Goddard]

Tell me John if God Is Love, then where does fear come into the scheme of things?

Love and fear are 2 different things and with Love there is no fear of anything, just love and more love. Love is all that Love knows. So, if you are told to fear God or fear something like the so called Devil you know instantly that what your taught to fear is not the truth, bibical or otherwise. Fear and engendering fear in someone is how people keep control of you. Are you wanting other's to control you for the rest of your life?

Point being you should be afraid of God if you don't know God's love.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Same as if I said you don't have to be afraid of not getting paid if you do a good job for your employer. Your employer is money. But you should be afraid of not getting paid if you don't go to work.

[Gatsby]

Point being you should be afraid of God if you don't know God's love.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Same as if I said you don't have to be afraid of not getting paid if you do a good job for your employer. Your employer is money. But you should be afraid of not getting paid if you don't go to work.

John, you quote from 1 John 4:7-8 and this answer's the question does it not that God Is Love.

Now tell me, is it possibly to really love someone and fear them at the same time?

A wee bit common sense goes a long way!!

Let me put this another way if I can for you to show that God/Love is not to be feared.

If you have ever fallen in love with someone you will know that ecstatic feeling that gives you. You love the one who loves you and you find yourself so exhilerated that nothing can take that loving feeling away. For a while this love that you feel makes you love everyone and everything, you become blinded to any faults that anyone has, even of those who you may have criticised many times before. Your find that all the little irritants etc are swept right out of your mind, which has given itself over to love. Now this is the kind of feeling we have when we truly fall in love with someone. For mortals this feeling sadly doesn't last, hence the saying love is blind (to faults of others), well think how much more love God has for you and each one of us, a trillion times more wouldn't even come near to it. So tell my why you should fear this God, when this God feels nothing except love. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

John, you quote from 1 John 4:7-8 and this answer's the question does it not that God Is Love.

Now tell me, is it possibly to really love someone and fear them at the same time?

A wee bit common sense goes a long way!!

Let me put this another way if I can for you to show that God/Love is not to be feared.

Point still being that Jesus is admonishing to say that if you fear what persecutors can do to you more than you fear God, and you don't do what God says for fear of persecution, then you don't know God's love to see you through it.

And point blank 1 John 4:7-8 says if you don't know God then you don't have God's love.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Jesus talks elsewhere to people who don't know God:

John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Previously to the same people:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And elsewhere:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So does God really love fools who despise wisdom and instruction and don't know God's love?

You know you can't cherrypick one saying GOD IS LOVE and throw that idea at everything, you need to put it in context with what the rest of the Bible says.

That is if you go by the Christian Bible like I do, if not I guess you can make up your own version. :shrug:

[Gatsby]

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who exactly is this devil? I presume you think that he is a person like you think God is a person, is that correct?

What you have quoted is symbolism and not meant to be taken litteraly. So much of thje Bible is taken litteraly and it is not meant to be it is a spiritual teaching but so much has been changed that little remains of the original teachings of Jesus. So if you want to fashion yourself like a book, feel free to do so, but dont make the mistake of thinking this will bring you closer to God because it wont. God is nearer that hands and feet. That is also a biblical quote I believe.
God is love, that basically is all we need to know and to hear God speak to us which he does through what is called intuition. Intuition is the Christ within speaking to you and keeping you one the right path but so many think that this intuition is no more than a hunch that they dismiss hence they are not very intuitive. if they listened and acted upon thier intuition then thee intuition, which is God speaking, will occur on a regular basis and litteraly be your guide.

Try and use your intuition yourself and you will see that this is so.

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

Who exactly is this devil? I presume you think that he is a person like you think God is a person, is that correct?

Not really, I think the devil is just self-will opposed to God's will.


What you have quoted is symbolism and not meant to be taken litteraly.

Oh ok, well then maybe you are wrong to take GOD IS LOVE literally.

What you really mean is that you take cherrypicked verses literally, without considering them in context with the Bible as a whole, as long as they suit your fancy, right.

Anyway explain how you interpret this symbolically:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

[Gatsby]

Iam That I am.




To function in our I am that I am identity
is to function in
The Christ Mind





“I and My Father are One”
is the seed, (the idea), that will lead us into the ‘Kingdom of God’... into a consciousness of Oneness... into the ‘Christ Mind’! This seemingly egotistical idea sets in motion the real Spiritual Rebirth. By no other means can we attain the Christ Mind. (By no other means can we enter the Kingdom of God.)

The above is from another site, I put it here for your consideration.

I shall find the web address again and put the credit in another post.

Gatsby
...........................................................................................................................
No, I dont cherry pick verses John, there would be no point in that.
So am I to take it that you dont beleive that God Is Love then?

The devil is the mortal mind, the mortal mind being the symbolic tree of knowlege and Satan is the Satan of the senses. This is the symbolism of Satan. The senses are those ones we use in this mortal realm. ie the five senses. To reply to your quote Proverbs .7. I have to say it is complete rubbish. Fear and Love do not go together they are actually opposties and are once more part of the tree of knowlege which is known as duality. In duality there are opposites, this world is full of opposites, but the Tree of Life is the REAL TREE and has no opposites at all.. You quote from Psalms again is rubbish because it is talking about hating which is impossible for God, who is Love to do. Do you see how the theologians or years gone by managed to keep control of thier flock which seems to me that you are quite happy for them to do. As they still do this to this very day.

I would say that the clergy of all denomenations have carved out for themselves over eaons of time, a very wealthy way of living for themselves and keeping tight control of the populations at large.

As soon as you see opposites like God loves or God hates, know that this is not the truth your being told, rather you have been manipulated.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Iam That I am.




To function in our I am that I am identity
is to function in
The Christ Mind





“I and My Father are One”
is the seed, (the idea), that will lead us into the ‘Kingdom of God’... into a consciousness of Oneness... into the ‘Christ Mind’! This seemingly egotistical idea sets in motion the real Spiritual Rebirth. By no other means can we attain the Christ Mind. (By no other means can we enter the Kingdom of God.)

www.the christmind.org

[John Goddard]

No, I dont cherry pick verses John, there would be no point in that.
So am I to take it that you dont beleive that God Is Love then?

God is Love to people who know God, I'll post it again:

Point still being that Jesus is admonishing to say that if you fear what persecutors can do to you more than you fear God, and you don't do what God says for fear of persecution, then you don't know God's love to see you through it.

And point blank 1 John 4:7-8 says if you don't know God then you don't have God's love.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


To reply to your quote Proverbs .7. I have to say it is complete rubbish.

Cherrypicking verses from the Bible means you pick what you want and discard the rest, as you are doing here by discarding Psalms when it says God hates workers of iniquity. The NT quotes from Psalms, so you are saying that the NT is rubbish too, whether you realize it or not.

Therefore any verses you offer from the entire Bible are cherrypicked as suited to your own ideas. You would have a better message if you just forget about using the Bible and argue on a logical basis as to why God should love everyone no matter what.

[Gatsby]

God is Love to people who know God, I'll post it again:

Point still being that Jesus is admonishing to say that if you fear what persecutors can do to you more than you fear God, and you don't do what God says for fear of persecution, then you don't know God's love to see you through it.

And point blank 1 John 4:7-8 says if you don't know God then you don't have God's love.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

That means that in the Biblical sense you will love me and all here does it not, or else you dont know God. So do you know God or not?



Cherrypicking verses from the Bible means you pick what you want and discard the rest, as you are doing here by discarding Psalms when it says God hates workers of iniquity. The NT quotes from Psalms, so you are saying that the NT is rubbish too, whether you realize it or not.

Excuse me John, you picked the verses I just responded to them. That is not cherry picking the verses is it?

Therefore any verses you offer from the entire Bible are cherrypicked as suited to your own ideas. You would have a better message if you just forget about using the Bible and argue on a logical basis as to why God should love everyone no matter what.

But I haven't used biblical quotes, I have just said that haven't I. John, the Truth, God, is ever unfolding and will continue to unfold eternally. One can have a personal realationship with God, and one can use logic to try and understand God, but...

'God surpasses our reasoning and logic although he does not go contrary to our reason or logic. In other words He is the Great Unknown ever unfolding and creating.'
(courtesy of Dr Murdo MacDonald Bayne's teachings)

Now, I have put that as simply as I can for you although Iam not 100% sure that you will understand what I'm saying.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Sorry John, I see that in the above post there is no distinction really between your post in blue ink and mine. I used the B button for bold type and it doesn't seem to have worked.
Sorry about that.

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

But I haven't used biblical quotes, I have just said that haven't I.

"Tell me John if God Is Love, then where does fear come into the scheme of things?"

I figured you got that from 1 John 4:8.

[Gatsby]

"Tell me John if God Is Love, then where does fear come into the scheme of things?"

I figured you got that from 1 John 4:8.

John, you still haven't answered the questions:

Where does fear come from?
Do you know God and do you love everyone?

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

John, you still haven't answered the questions:

Where does fear come from?
Do you know God and do you love everyone?

I have to work hard praying to love everyone, for God to give me the strength to do it when I can't do it myself, my ego tells me to hate people who hurt me.

But if I don't have love, forgiveness, etc. for others then God won't have it for me, as Jesus says.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So when you say God is love, mercy, etc. then it applies to people who do the same, my point all along.

[Gatsby]

I have to work hard praying to love everyone, for God to give me the strength to do it when I can't do it myself, my ego tells me to hate people who hurt me.

Exactly John, at last you have said it honestly.....your ego tells you to hate people.

But if I don't have love, forgiveness, etc. for others then God won't have it for me, as Jesus says.

But I say to you John, God loves you know matter what you do. I dont mean by that for you to go out and do things that you know are wrong or hurtfull, that's not what I mean of course.



Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.[/I]

This is not true John. But I beleive you are doing your best under the circumstances of believing a book that is basically for the most part deceiving you.

So when you say God is love, mercy, etc. then it applies to people who do the same, my point all along.

I dont get this John, do you mean that God's love and mercy are only for those who show love and mercy to other's and if they dont do that then God doesn't love them? Is this what your meaning?

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

sorry. the B tab is not working again, lol this is getting embarassing, lol. Hope you can make out what I said John.

Regards

[Christa]

Tell me John if God Is Love, then where does fear come into the scheme of things?

Love and fear are 2 different things and with Love there is no fear of anything, just love and more love. Love is all that Love knows. So, if you are told to fear God or fear something like the so called Devil you know instantly that what your taught to fear is not the truth, bibical or otherwise. Fear and engendering fear in someone is how people keep control of you. Are you wanting other's to control you for the rest of your life?

Regards
Gatsby:smile:

:wink:

[John Goddard]

I dont get this John, do you mean that God's love and mercy are only for those who show love and mercy to other's and if they dont do that then God doesn't love them? Is this what your meaning?

They aren't going to know God's love, because God won't know them to be giving love to them. See how it works:

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

[Gatsby]

They aren't going to know God's love, because God won't know them to be giving love to them. See how it works:

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.


John, your saying God wont know them to be giving love to them. This isn't how it works John. Sorry to be the one to tell you this. It could work like this if God were seperate from you but God is WITHIN you and not seperate from you. You are loved by God because GOD IS LOVE. Therefore all are loved by God because GOD IS LOVE. All are loved by God, why? Becuase God is within each and everyone of us, hence God loves us all. He is not outside of you, relative to you or a seperate entity sitting high up in some clouds somewhere handing out love to some and wrath to other's. As long as you beleive God to be apart from you, seperate from you, you wont know God. The Bible is a esoteric book and has to be read as such. It is a book of living and loving for mankind, but it is not a book to be taken litteraly.

Re your signature at the bottom of your post. I would say that is pretty good. Yes, a good thing to review each day and see where you are. By all means if you or anyone feels you didn't do all you could, then vow to do better, take each day at a time. In fact we should take each moment at a time, because NOW is all we've got.

Love and Blessings
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

Therefore all are loved by God because GOD IS LOVE. All are loved by God, why? Becuase God is within each and everyone of us, hence God loves us all.

What if some guy kidnapped your kids, raped, tortured, murdered them, then bragged about it and made fun of you all the way to his execution? What about that kind of a person would make you think God is within him, and that this person has any part of God's love?


Re your signature at the bottom of your post. I would say that is pretty good. Yes, a good thing to review each day and see where you are. By all means if you or anyone feels you didn't do all you could, then vow to do better, take each day at a time. In fact we should take each moment at a time, because NOW is all we've got.

I don't make any vows or promises since that implies I'm going to do something by my own power, rather than relying on God's power to do for me what I can't do for myself.

I just try to keep an eye out for the same behaviors so I can try to avoid them next time. Some things go away for good, other things come up again and I have to take a different approach to avoid them. Usually it involves praying more for God's strength and guidance rather than my own self-will, there's always room for improvement there.

Like for example cussing back at my ex-wife when we get into an argument. Usually it would end up with me taking off to the bar and getting good and drunk over it.

When I first tried this program again, it was hard to keep from getting sucked into combat. But more and more I can just let her blow off steam, and if I feel myself getting agitated, more and more I can just walk away to go pray and let things cool off, rather than fanning the flames.

Most important, God has completely removed my urge to drink over anything, including that situation, I haven't had one craving since Christmas Eve, my last drink. So it works pretty well.

-------------------------

That said, I agree that each person has no right to hate anyone, hate is bad for us humans. It's better to love people no matter what and treat them as if they are spiritually sick, even if they do wrong to us.

However, I also have no right to say that God can't justifiably hate, or that He must love everyone, including wicked people who remain unrepentant. This is where we get confused, because we often assume that God is going to act the same we we act, and that God couldn't possibly do anything we couldn't do.

But that's just another way of me playing God and judge, rather than allowing God the right to hate or love anyone as He pleases.

So I take the Bible literally when it says God can hate some people, and I allow Him the right to do that, though not necessarily stealing that privilege for myself to do the same.

[Christa]

John, your saying God wont know them to be giving love to them. This isn't how it works John. Sorry to be the one to tell you this. It could work like this if God were seperate from you but God is WITHIN you and not seperate from you. You are loved by God because GOD IS LOVE. Therefore all are loved by God because GOD IS LOVE. All are loved by God, why? Becuase God is within each and everyone of us, hence God loves us all. He is not outside of you, relative to you or a seperate entity sitting high up in some clouds somewhere handing out love to some and wrath to other's. As long as you beleive God to be apart from you, seperate from you, you wont know God. The Bible is a esoteric book and has to be read as such. It is a book of living and loving for mankind, but it is not a book to be taken litteraly.
Gatsby

:offtopic:

[Christa]

Love is the Key

:hijacked:

[Gatsby]

Hi Christa, sorry this has got 'off topic' somewhat. However Iam trying to show that we all have our Divine Nature not just Jesus.

Jesus didn't lay down his divine nature, he took it up. ie he ascended into his divine nature through love of God and love of all. Divine nature does not judge, does not hate, turns the other cheek. All these things Jesus ably demonstrated and in that demonstration he showed us the Mind of God over his own mortal mind. Hence, God does not judge, nor hate nor even see's anything that is wrong.

Jesus said to the Father to 'forgive them for they know not what they do' and also 'You who have seen me have seen the Father' this was said to demonstrate that the Father was within Jesus as He is with us.

Our divine nature will arise in us ourselves once we have laid down the egoic mortal mind of all conditioning, then we too will demonstrate the loving Divine Nature within us which is That which we call God.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Well done John. Iam full of admiration for you trying to do the right thing. In fact your not trying you are doing the right thing.

Now we are told to forgive are we not. Well, I would hope that if any situation came about where forgiveness was needed I would be able to forgive.

All of our experiences on earth are for soul growth. There is a reason for everything, nothing happens by chance.

Knowing that the divine is within me, I can like you get myself out the way, so to speak, (my own thoughts I mean here) and allow God to take over.

Regards
Gatsby

[Christa]

Hi Christa, sorry this has got 'off topic' somewhat. However Iam trying to show that we all have our Divine Nature not just Jesus.

Jesus didn't lay down his divine nature, he took it up. ie he ascended into his divine nature through love of God and love of all. Divine nature does not judge, does not hate, turns the other cheek. All these things Jesus ably demonstrated and in that demonstration he showed us the Mind of God over his own mortal mind. Hence, God does not judge, nor hate nor even see's anything that is wrong.

Jesus said to the Father to 'forgive them for they know not what they do' and also 'You who have seen me have seen the Father' this was said to demonstrate that the Father was within Jesus as He is with us.

Our divine nature will arise in us ourselves once we have laid down the egoic mortal mind of all conditioning, then we too will demonstrate the loving Divine Nature within us which is That which we call God.

Regards
Gatsby


:rando:

:yipee:

[John Goddard]

Now we are told to forgive are we not. Well, I would hope that if any situation came about where forgiveness was needed I would be able to forgive.

We humans are never to hate, but there is no forgiveness without repentance.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.