The Great Omission

[EphremHagos]

If Jesus Christ testified on his own behalf, he either spoke the partial claim out of humility (John 5:31) or promised the hard proof to follow the full claim (John 6:62-63; 8: 21-28).

By this token, Jesus’ credentials of “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28: 18-20) although promised (John 1:51) and proven, remain largely out of circulation to the detriment of Post-apostolic Christianity!

[RBerman]

Jesus did not promise to give the church all his authority.

[EphremHagos]

Jesus did not promise to give the church all his authority.
Yes, Jesus promised exactly that in the blueprint of the "church" (or the new forum for worship of God as he is, i.e., "in Spirit and truth") as originaly defined and executed, in the context of his suffering and death on the cross bearing the stamp of his self-revelation as immortal, "Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 13-28) for all posterity. This is Discipleship Training 101 in a nutshell.

[Heterodoxus]

If Jesus Christ testified on his own behalf, ....Did not Jesus indicate that a self-witness gives false evidence? (JN 5:31; cf. ΜΑΡΤΥΡΩ; ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΑ, or μαρτυρῶ; μαρτυρία for you who can't read Greek majuscule lettering.)
Yes, Jesus promised exactly that ... as originaly defined ....Did he? And where might this "original" definition be located?
This is Discipleship Training 101 in a nutshell."Discipleship Training 101" according to _____?

Alternatively, I suggest non-biased Biblical Hermeneutics 101.

[RBerman]

all[/I] his authority.
Yes, Jesus promised exactly that in the blueprint of the "church" (or the new forum for worship of God as he is, i.e., "in Spirit and truth") as originaly defined and executed, in the context of his suffering and death on the cross bearing the stamp of his self-revelation as immortal, "Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 13-28) for all posterity. This is Discipleship Training 101 in a nutshell.
No, it's not. Jesus retains his authority. He has delegated a measure of that authority to the church, but not all of it. Do you have the authority to raise the dead, for instance? Try it at a funeral home today.

[EphremHagos]

The highest privilege of the "church", i.e., the Spirit-nature of Jesus Christ as first intimated (Matt. 16: 13-28) and later publicly revealed at his death on the cross (John 19: 30-37), is primarily the true worship of God as he really is (John 4: 21-24) with power to raise the spiritually dead but not necessarily the physically dead.

Wouldn't you agree that such authority will be more effective in institutional, secular churches than in funeral homes?

[John Goddard]

Yes, Jesus promised exactly that in the blueprint of the "church" (or the new forum for worship of God as he is, i.e., "in Spirit and truth") as originaly defined and executed, in the context of his suffering and death on the cross bearing the stamp of his self-revelation as immortal, "Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 13-28) for all posterity. This is Discipleship Training 101 in a nutshell.

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The highest privilege of the "church", i.e., the Spirit-nature of Jesus Christ as first intimated (Matt. 16: 13-28) and later publicly revealed at his death on the cross (John 19: 30-37), is primarily the true worship of God as he really is (John 4: 21-24) with power to raise the spiritually dead but not necessarily the physically dead.

Your two posts seem to contradict? The first seems to say the church had all the same authority as Jesus, but the second seems to concede that it has some spiritual authority, but not exactly all the power of God at their fingertips.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Is along the same lines as:

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Which in a practical sense for me is as simple as praying for God to remove my obsession to drink alcohol, and it is lifted.

[RBerman]

The highest privilege of the "church", i.e., the Spirit-nature of Jesus Christ as first intimated (Matt. 16: 13-28) and later publicly revealed at his death on the cross (John 19: 30-37), is primarily the true worship of God as he really is (John 4: 21-24) with power to raise the spiritually dead but not necessarily the physically dead.
OK. So you agree that Jesus did not really delegate "all his authority" to the Church.

[EphremHagos]

Did not Jesus indicate that a self-witness gives false evidence? (JN 5:31; cf. ΜΑΡΤΥΡΩ; ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΑ, or μαρτυρῶ; μαρτυρία for you who can't read Greek majuscule lettering.)
Did he? And where might this "original" definition be located?
"Discipleship Training 101" according to _____?

Alternatively, I suggest non-biased Biblical Hermeneutics 101.
Not only did Jesus indicate that a self-witness is giving false evidence but he also went further to discredit “a man’s witness” for him as unnecessary thus disqualifying the two kinds of claims for witnessing.

The unique witness on his behalf which is even greater than the witness that John gave in the words: “I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from heaven and stay on him” as a sign of “the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit” (John 1: 32-34) is the baptism by the same in terms of “blood” and “water” pouring out of his pierced side after his death on the cross (John 19: 34-37).

In other words, the unique witness on behalf of Jesus is not in any of the words quoted above but in his work of self-revelation on the cross as the “I Am Who I Am” (John 8: 21-28; 10: 37-38).

Yes, the seat of “all authority in heaven and on earth” including the power over death is in the revealed person of Jesus Christ (the “church”) as blueprinted in Matt. 16: 13-28 and built on the rock foundation of Jesus Christ, as he is: “the same yesterday. Today and for ever” (Heb. 13:8)

Therefore, all it takes for Discipleship Training 101 is a self-revealing and mentoring Master –being taught personally by God (John 6: 45-47). I know personally that it works!

What room could there possibly be for Biblical Hermeneutics 101?

[EphremHagos]

OK. So you agree that Jesus did not really delegate "all his authority" to the Church.
The "church" is Jesus Christ. There is no difference between the two! (Matt. 16: 13-28)

[John Goddard]

The "church" is Jesus Christ. There is no difference between the two! (Matt. 16: 13-28)

For purposes of most discussions, the church is all the Christians who follow Jesus.

Example, we tell other Christians if an unrepentant sinner is active among us:

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Let's try not to complicate it... :smile:

[EphremHagos]

Your two posts seem to contradict? The first seems to say the church had all the same authority as Jesus, but the second seems to concede that it has some spiritual authority, but not exactly all the power of God at their fingertips.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Is along the same lines as:

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Which in a practical sense for me is as simple as praying for God to remove my obsession to drink alcohol, and it is lifted.
No contradiction at all!

Yes, the "church", as defined in Matt. 16: 13-28 (not to be confused with the "other church" or our local churches), is Jesus Christ with the same identity and authority. The gospel privileges of true worship of God as he is, i.e., in "Spirit and truth" concern strictly crucifixion-based, truly born-again persons (John 3: 1-21; 4: 21-24) who otherwise have no standing in their own right. This is perhaps where the contradiction was apparent but not real.