Jesus was a MUSHROOM ?

[headheart]

I must have been on recess for much too long, for as I was scanning youtube for some of the Woodstock videos, I stumbled over some of the videos presented by Gnostic Media (http://www.youtube.com/user/GnosticMedia).

Jesus was a Mushroom
Monday, Jun. 08, 1970

read....

To some biblical scholars in Britain, the new book looked like the psychedelic ravings of a hippie cultist. To others, it was merely an outlandish hoax. One described it as reading "like a Semitic philologist's erotic nightmare." (... read more (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909327,00.html)...)

the article continues to read....

The object of all this learned scorn was The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, which argues that Jesus was not a man but a hallucinogenic mushroom, Amanita muscaria; that the New Testament was concocted by addicts of the mushroom as a code for their mystical lore; and that the God of Jews and Christians is ultimately nothing more than a magnificent phallic symbol. Normally, such preposterous stuff would be dismissed as beneath serious discussion. But in this case the author is a maverick philologist of some scholarly standing: John M. Allegro, 47, former lecturer on the Old Testament at the University of Manchester and the first Briton on the international team of editors of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
(... read more (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909327,00.html)...)


The whole idea seemed to die with him in 1988, but has been resurrected with GnosticMedia.com who have released videos documenting of Jan Irvin & Andrew Rutajit's extensions to John M. Allegro ideas...with videos like this one ...

Part 5 - Who was John Allegro? (Interview with Abraxas) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTrp5-UJpbg&feature=PlayList&p=E002C099151776B9&index=8)

Where Jan Irvin is interviewed and discusses what seems to have been swept under the carpet...according to him.
Some people are convinced this is yet another Conspiracy Theory, but what do you think ?

Is Jesus a shroom...???

:blush:
HH.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Is Jesus a shroom...???

No, but the proponents of this idiocy must be well acquainted with these fungi...

[headheart]

No, but the proponents of this idiocy must be well acquainted with these fungi...


Yes, I thought so too. Sort of what the Rastafarians did with 'Marijuana'.

There are a few puzzles though.
John M. Allegro was a minister, as well as one of those who was involved in working on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and published his findings under a cloud of reactions from the Church.

As I said, 'I must have been on recess for much too long', and like 'The Da Vinci Code' which has been suitably debunked as a Conspiracy Theory and no more than a wild concoction of Tantric Sex Rituals and the overactive imagination of Dan Brown...., but...is there a scholarly debunking of this challenge. Or am I to believe the best we can muster up is a tiny shroom of ad hominen ?

HH.
:pot: (...the shrooms are already in the pot...)

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Yes, I thought so too. Sort of what the Rastafarians did with 'Marijuana'.

There are a few puzzles though.
John M. Allegro was a minister, as well as one of those who was involved in working on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and published his findings under a cloud of reactions from the Church.

As I said, 'I must have been on recess for much too long', and like 'The Da Vinci Code' which has been suitably debunked as a Conspiracy Theory and now more that a revamping of Tantric Sex Rituals, is there a scholarly debunking of this challenge. Or am I to believe the best we can muster up is a tiny shroom of ad hominen ?

HH.
:pot: (...the shrooms are already in the pot...)

A scholarly debunking? The vast majority of credentialed scholars believe Jesus existed as a living, breathing man and was the creator of Christianity. Jesus was very much a humanoid.

[headheart]

A scholarly debunking? The vast majority of credentialed scholars believe Jesus existed as a living, breathing man and was the creator of Christianity. Jesus was very much a humanoid.

If that is all you have to say about it, then I will wait for someone else to reply.

HH.
:pray:

[Eru Ilúvatar]

If that is all you have to say about it, then I will wait for someone else to reply.

HH.
:pray:

What are you looking for? :hrm: You want quotes?

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who recieve the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out."

Josephus, "Antiquities: Testimonium Flavanum"

[headheart]

What are you looking for? :hrm: You want quotes?

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who recieve the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out."

Josephus, "Antiquities: Testimonium Flavanum"

You really don't get it do you.

The following websites, seem to present quite a compelling and thoughtful response to John M. Allegro apparent findings...( read them, and listen to the video link I posted in my o.p. )

John Marco Allegro (http://johnallegro.org/main/)

and,

The Holy Mushroom (http://www.theholymushroom.com/)

as well as,...

Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge as Amanita (http://www.egodeath.com/WassonEdenTree.htm)by Michael Hoffman

Really Beren Erchamion, I could present tons of proofs for the historical Jesus, but that is not what is being challenged. It is an interpretation of certain parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls that John M. Allegro, was convinced referred to these mushrooms.

If all you wish to do is to present proof to the contrary and not respond to the argument, then you are responding in much the same what the Church and the Press did back in 1970.

My advice, let someone who might know a bit more have a chance at replying.

HH.
:blush:

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Really Beren Erchamion, I could present tons of proofs for the historical Jesus, but that is not what is being challenged. It is an interpretation of certain parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls that John M. Allegro, was convinced referred to these mushrooms.

You could start by mentioning in your OP that the controversy was specifically about the Dead Sea scrolls :ahem:

[technomage]

Is Jesus a shroom...???

Allegro's work was so far out of the "norm" that it received far more condemnation than critical review, however, it has not passed totally without examination. However, it must be noted that a view that is so far out away from reality can usually be safely dismissed without an in depth critique.

The core of Allegro's work was the philology, of which Anna Partington noted "... SMC [The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross] uses a number of hypothetical Sumerian words not attested in texts. These are marked with an asterisk following philological convention. This is akin to proposing there is a word in the English language 'bellbat' because the individual words 'bell' and 'bat' are known to exist separately. Then again words of different languages are gathered together without the type of argument which would be expected in order to demonstrate possible relationship." (Astrotheology & Shamanism by Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit, 2006, pg. 55.)

In short--it is true that Allegro's work has been largely dismissed when it is considered at all. That dismissal does not seem to be undeserved.

[headheart]

Allegro's work was so far out of the "norm" that it received far more condemnation than critical review, however, it has not passed totally without examination. However, it must be noted that a view that is so far out away from reality can usually be safely dismissed without an in depth critique.

The core of Allegro's work was the philology, of which Anna Partington noted "... SMC [The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross] uses a number of hypothetical Sumerian words not attested in texts. These are marked with an asterisk following philological convention. This is akin to proposing there is a word in the English language 'bellbat' because the individual words 'bell' and 'bat' are known to exist separately. Then again words of different languages are gathered together without the type of argument which would be expected in order to demonstrate possible relationship." (Astrotheology & Shamanism by Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit, 2006, pg. 55.)

In short--it is true that Allegro's work has been largely dismissed when it is considered at all. That dismissal does not seem to be undeserved.

mmm...I read that.

I remember when the 'Da Vinci Code' came out, and when 'The Dawkins Delusion' came out, I felt the same. I'd sort of go right into the doubt mode, even though I have enough apologetic evidence to sink and entire fleet of the US army, it still plagues me. What if Jesus was a mushroom and this is one giant conspiracy ? Would I then become a shroom eater or would I sink into despair ? :teeth: I used to settle my beliefs on a sort of dogmatic Scripturalistic approach, but with age have become a lot less desirous of being so hard on my mind. I enjoy just thinking about things as they come up.

I mean Evolution has really unmapped a lot of theologians and some Christians are burying their heads in the sand. It hurts to have to change one's position to be more flexible. We after all are like ants in an ant farm and have the written testimonies of other ants who saw the great one in ant form...it get's a little dark at times, but then a ray of hope and sunlight shines through and we have a reason to believe.

Forgive my unbelief, but for a second I thought I might have been a regenerated mushroom.

:lol:
HH

[headheart]

In short--it is true that Allegro's work has been largely dismissed when it is considered at all. That dismissal does not seem to be undeserved.


Who were the scholars who dismissed Allegro's work, and where can I read their responses. Should a mushroom rash flare up again, I would like to be armed with some anti-shroom fever pills. There was some theory about the other scholar that oppossed him, who had spent time munching the mushies only to discover that they did not have the desired effect but only some ancient shroom healer, who had shrooms that seemed to have a halocogenic effect, but now the shrooms had begun to speak in English.


:lol:
Amanita Muscaria The Magic Christmas Mushroom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY0D6-JqsvY)
HH.

ps.
As a Video it is most overwhelmingly believable, almost as overwhelming as the Santa Video...in 12 parts...
The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvEHObMMH4&feature=related)
This what is written in the information segment...

Gnostic Media is proud to present this "YouTube Edition" of The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD by Jan Irvin & Andrew Rutajit. The full length DVD has been split into twelve 10-minute sections making it easy to watch and share.

Please visit www.GnosticMedia.com or www.Pharmacratic-Inquisition.com for more information or to purchase a copy of the DVD.

Irvin and Rutajit were also used as sources for Zeitgeist the movie.

Did Jesus really exist? Or his he sun mythology? Is Christianity really based on astrotheology, sex worship and drugs? Did early Christians use Marijuana, Magic shrooms and other drugs?

This full length video gets to the bottom of some of the worlds largest religions. Brought to you by Gnostic Media.

[headheart]

You could start by mentioning in your OP that the controversy was specifically about the Dead Sea scrolls :ahem:


B.E.,
Perhaps you should have watched the video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTrp5-UJpbg&feature=PlayList&p=E002C099151776B9&index=8)and paid closer attention to the quote...

Here...

But in this case the author is a maverick philologist of some scholarly standing: John M. Allegro, 47, former lecturer on the Old Testament at the University of Manchester and the first Briton on the international team of editors of the Dead Sea Scrolls


I try to put as much into an o.p. as I can, but not so much that it is too much to read, but I apologize for not being more specific.

HH.
:wink:

[headheart]

add.
For those who are reading the links, I have posted up. This one from the John M Allegro website, which is a note attributed to J.M. Allegro titled, 'Jesus and Qumram' reads as follows...

In my recent books , in particular The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, The Dead Sea Scrolls and tk Christian Myth, and the forthcoming Physician, H e a l Thyself, I have tried to demonstrate something of the multilayered structure of the gospel narratives and teachings. Their 'decipherment' is d i f f i c u l t and was intended to be so, just as the &sene secrets were not for t h e eyes of the uninitiated: even their w r i t t e n works were wrapped up and hidden in caves or, in tke final emergency, simply wrenckd aprt a d thrown into a secret underground chamber. Their most vital mysteries were never mmmitted to writing, as Josephus makes clear (War I1 1411, but passed only by word of mouth under awful oaths of silence, and we have found fragmentary documents among t h e i r scrolls which were encoded in cyphers of t h e i r own devising. Similarly, t k inner councils of the Church were aware of secret writings which were not to be promulgated, even among the f a i t h f u l . As the secondcentury Church Father, Clement of Alexandria, said in a letter recently recognized and published by Professor Morton Smith {The Secret Gospel, 1974), "not everything t h a t is true needs necessarily to be divulged to all men." That was in connexion with p a r t of the Marcan Gospel whose circulation the Church's elders had deemed w i s e s t to restrict to "those who had k n initiated into the great mysteries." It had to do with the story in the Secmd Gospel of the rich young man who approached Jesus and wbm we now learn was initiated by the Master into "the mystery of the Kingdom of God" during the course of a secret nocturnal ceremony. Once we can bring ourselves to admit t h a t e a r l y Christianity, like Essenism, was an esoteric f a i t h offering access to the d i v i n e mysteries, and never the open, e v a n g e l i s t i c Gospel of the church's defensive propganda, we can begin more r e a l i s t i c a l l y to probe the depths of the New Testament writings, and to set the faith in its proper historical and religious perspective. As far as the gospel narratives of Jesus are concerned, we may free ourselves for ever from the n e d to lay bare a r e a l i t y on which to base a m o r e historically convincing prtrai t of a first-century Teackr who, in three short years, w a s supposed to have founded a new religion, or so transformed an e x i s t i n g messianic faith that it could become almost immediately acceptable to a gentile world. We are dealing with myth, not history.
From: link (http://johnallegro.org/main/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=6&MMN_position=8:8) - pdf document, plus three audio dowloads at his site.


I apologize for the poor quality but it was a scanned image, with converted letters. I'm not even sure it is an authentic document, but it has all the taste of plagiarims. NOT?

[headheart]

Allegro's work was so far out of the "norm" that it received far more condemnation than critical review, however, it has not passed totally without examination. However, it must be noted that a view that is so far out away from reality can usually be safely dismissed without an in depth critique.

The core of Allegro's work was the philology, of which Anna Partington noted "... SMC [The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross] uses a number of hypothetical Sumerian words not attested in texts. These are marked with an asterisk following philological convention. This is akin to proposing there is a word in the English language 'bellbat' because the individual words 'bell' and 'bat' are known to exist separately. Then again words of different languages are gathered together without the type of argument which would be expected in order to demonstrate possible relationship." (Astrotheology & Shamanism by Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit, 2006, pg. 55.)

In short--it is true that Allegro's work has been largely dismissed when it is considered at all. That dismissal does not seem to be undeserved.


Dear Silent Running and informed Theology Web board members.

So this is the reaction of Theology Web to the assertions of one John Allegro and his Mushroom Devotees, as covered by GnosticMedia.com and as portrayed on various websites dedicated to his memory and research into the DSS...???:

Gnostic Media
As a Video it is most overwhelmingly believable, almost as overwhelming as the Santa Video...in 12 parts...
The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvEHObMMH4&feature=related)

Websites:
The John Allegro Website (http://johnallegro.org/main/)
Pharmacratic-Inquisition (http://www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com/)
The Holy Mushroom (http://www.theholymushroom.com/)
Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge (http://www.egodeath.com/WassonEdenTree.htm) as Amanita by Michael Hoffman

HH.
:eek:
Jesus was a Mushroom ..right ?

[John Goddard]

Is Jesus a shroom...???

I started seeing this theory when I worked for Marilyn Manson in '99. Some of the Satanist kids started thinking Jesus might be for them after all.

[headheart]

I started seeing this theory when I worked for Marilyn Manson in '99. Some of the Satanist kids started thinking Jesus might be for them after all.


Oh, that must have been a very dark experience ?

So what are your thoughts about John Allegro's shroom theories?

HH.
:eh:

[John Goddard]

Oh, that must have been a very dark experience ?

So what are your thoughts about John Allegro's shroom theories?

Even though I was a Christian I was really weak and got tempted by tarot and some occult stuff, not very good.

I think the theory is silly.

[headheart]

Even though I was a Christian I was really weak and got tempted by tarot and some occult stuff, not very good.


I know what Tarot (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tarot) is, but exactly what Occult (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/occult) stuff were you into ? and what is it about Tarot that you find particulary tempting (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempting) ?


I think the theory is silly.


So what is it precisely what you find silly about John Allegro's ideas (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2633298&postcount=14)?

HH.
:ahem:

[John Goddard]

I know what Tarot (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tarot) is, but exactly what Occult (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/occult) stuff were you into ? and what is it about Tarot that you find particulary tempting (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempting) ?

I was tempted by the power to have secret knowledge. I also got into scrying and Enochian magic before my accuracy with tarot scared me away from all that since I knew this power didn't come from God.


So what is it precisely what you find silly about John Allegro's ideas (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2633298&postcount=14)?

I've had many spiritual experiences regarding the God of the Bible without using mushrooms or any other mind-altering chemical, which is another facet of the occult, seeking knowledge from sources other than God. All mushrooms ever did for me as a teenager was make me nauseated and feel like I was dying.

[headheart]

I was tempted by the power to have secret knowledge. I also got into scrying and Enochian magic before my accuracy with tarot scared me away from all that since I knew this power didn't come from God.


It is always the danger in communion with God, to want things rather than want Him.

How old were you when you got caught like this ?


I've had many spiritual experiences regarding the God of the Bible.......


The Lord has promised that He will reward those who diligently seek Him.


...without using mushrooms or any other mind-altering chemical, which is another facet of the occult, seeking knowledge from sources other than God. All mushrooms ever did for me as a teenager was make me nauseated and feel like I was dying.


The whole experience reminds me of Alice in Wonderland, especially when people eat, smoke and drink these things...they swell up with PRIDE.

His,
HH.
:pray:

[John Goddard]

It is always the danger in communion with God, to want things rather than want Him.

How old were you when you got caught like this ?

The Lord has promised that He will reward those who diligently seek Him.

The whole experience reminds me of Alice in Wonderland, especially when people eat, smoke and drink these things...they swell up with PRIDE.

Yep. '99 10 years ago I was 34, drunk and foolish.

[headheart]

Yep. '99 10 years ago I was 34, drunk and foolish.


Well, I cannot see you John, to smile and say, 'Go brother!'
But I'll send you some pearls.

His,
HH.

[John Goddard]

thx

[headheart]

Dear TWebbers (excl. John Goddard --- who has already expressed his views.),

Not wanting to give this issue a passive wave, I am reposting this earlier post, so it is clear that I am still considering John Allegro's assertions and looking for a more detailed and definite rebuttal.

If you are going to respond, please read back over this thread; so you do not DUPLICATE what has already been expressed.

I am only interested in specific responses to the exact details of John Allegro's theories, or any definite links to a strong rebuttal of this man's ideas.

Please respect my wishes and do not insult the intelligence of TWeb readers.

Sincerely,
HH.

Respond only to this if you have read the above!!!!

Originally posted by Silent Running (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2633051#post2633051)
Allegro's work was so far out of the "norm" that it received far more condemnation than critical review, however, it has not passed totally without examination. However, it must be noted that a view that is so far out away from reality can usually be safely dismissed without an in depth critique.

The core of Allegro's work was the philology, of which Anna Partington noted "... SMC [The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross] uses a number of hypothetical Sumerian words not attested in texts. These are marked with an asterisk following philological convention. This is akin to proposing there is a word in the English language 'bellbat' because the individual words 'bell' and 'bat' are known to exist separately. Then again words of different languages are gathered together without the type of argument which would be expected in order to demonstrate possible relationship." (Astrotheology & Shamanism by Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit, 2006, pg. 55.)

In short--it is true that Allegro's work has been largely dismissed when it is considered at all. That dismissal does not seem to be undeserved.

Dear Silent Running and informed Theology Web board members.

So this is the reaction of Theology Web to the assertions of one John Allegro and his Mushroom Devotees, as covered by GnosticMedia.com and as portrayed on various websites dedicated to his memory and research into the DSS...???:

Gnostic Media
As a Video it is most overwhelmingly believable, almost as overwhelming as the Santa Video...in 12 parts...
The Pharmacratic Inquisition DVD Part 1 of 12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvEHObMMH4&feature=related)

Websites:
The John Allegro Website (http://johnallegro.org/main/)
Pharmacratic-Inquisition (http://www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com/)
The Holy Mushroom (http://www.theholymushroom.com/)
Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge (http://www.egodeath.com/WassonEdenTree.htm)as Amanita by Michael Hoffman

HH.

Jesus was a Mushroom ..right ?

[umbro]

Yes HH, you are quite right on this one.
Science has recently confirmed this as well:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html


BTW, Santa is a mushroom too

[headheart]

Yes HH, you are quite right on this one.
Science has recently confirmed this as well:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html


BTW, Santa is a mushroom too


Hey umbro,
Thanks for the link.
This quote from the linked article...


The agent, a plant alkaloid called psilocybin, mimics the effect of serotonin on brain receptors-as do some other hallucinogens-but precisely where in the brain and in what manner are unknown.


....I found particularly illuminating.

I remember how the Happy Hippy Christians of the 70's....I was among them...would love 'praying and fasting', having quite times, and all night prayer meetings, because it seemed to trigger something similar to what Yogis (not that fun bear from Yellowstone) said happens when one practices Yoga. I read it said, that the state of N.K.S is equal to a trip on L.S.D. It is without a doubt that the discipline of Yoga does go towards a complete hook up with Shiva, and well...

:eek:

[umbro]

Hey umbro,
Thanks for the link.
This quote from the linked article...



....I found particularly illuminating.

I remember how the Happy Hippy Christians of the 70's....I was among them...would love 'praying and fasting', having quite times, and all night prayer meetings, because it seemed to trigger something similar to what Yogis (not that fun bear from Yellowstone) said happens when one practices Yoga. I read it said, that the state of N.K.S is equal to a trip on L.S.D. It is without a doubt that the discipline of Yoga does go towards a complete hook up with Shiva, and well...

:eek:

This is just the beginning, you should read this article about the newest finding's by the psychology dept at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/960407.html

peace

[headheart]

This is just the beginning, you should read this article about the newest finding's by the psychology dept at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/960407.html

peace

mmm, ....:grin:


'Shanon, former head of the Hebrew University psychology department, said his first experience with ayahuasca was in 1991 when he was invited to a religious ceremony in the northern Amazon in 1991 in Brazil. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," he says. Since that time, he has used it hundreds of times, and has published a book about the plant.'
From your linked article....


Hebrews 4:11 !


HH.