Demons & the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil

[FredFlanders]

What did Adam and Eve eat when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil? What are your thoughts on this subject as I believe the tree was a spiritual tree from Satan himself that gave man and woman spirits that directed us to sin. What I find ammusing is that in some Religious circles is that the tree was an apple tree.

[John Goddard]

What did Adam and Eve eat when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil? What are your thoughts on this subject as I believe the tree was a spiritual tree from Satan himself that gave man and woman spirits that directed us to sin. What I find ammusing is that in some Religious circles is that the tree was an apple tree.

It was just a fig tree, but God told them not to eat it. The fruit was good but eating it was bad. So they knew both good and evil when they ate it.

Then they tried to hide their sin with the fig leaves.

So in this metaphor and in symbolism throughout the rest of the Bible, figs represent good or evil works, Jeremiah 24.

And having only leaves represents hypocrisy of hiding evil works, as in the case of Jesus withering the fig tree as Jerusalem, Matthew 21:19.

[FredFlanders]

It was just a fig tree, but God told them not to eat it. The fruit was good but eating it was bad. So they knew both good and evil when they ate it.

Then they tried to hide their sin with the fig leaves.

So in this metaphor and in symbolism throughout the rest of the Bible, figs represent good or evil works, Jeremiah 24.

And having only leaves represents hypocrisy of hiding evil works, as in the case of Jesus withering the fig tree as Jerusalem, Matthew 21:19.

Hello John,
I did not see the tree as being a fig tree as God made figs good to eat. But rather a tree that had knowledge that seemed good to us but were in fact would kill us. This was knowledge that we did not have before. Before we "ate" this knowledge there was no death to man kind but after obtaining this knowledge man could die and had knowledge of sin for the first time. Man knew for the first time that if he/she sinned it would lead to death.
When we read Gal 5 v 18-21 we are given insight on sins that lead to death. All these sins such as immorality, drunkenness, selfishness, anger can seem good as for short term gain but in fact will lead us to death.
I can see that the sins in Gal 5 v 18-21 were given knowledge of for the first time, were on the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And were in fact spirits that caused man to sin.
Only by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus on our behalf for our misdemeanors and the infilling of the Holy Spirit allowed us to have authority and victory over these demonic spirits and again enter into the promises of God and His Kingdom.

[John Goddard]

Hello John,
I did not see the tree as being a fig tree as God made figs good to eat. But rather a tree that had knowledge that seemed good to us but were in fact would kill us.

The only way you can know evil is to do it, unless you are God, that's where they messed up. Their evil was they ate when told not to. There was nothing wrong with the fruit itself, is was disobedience to the Law that made them know sin.

Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

[FredFlanders]

The only way you can know evil is to do it, unless you are God, that's where they messed up. Their evil was they ate when told not to. There was nothing wrong with the fruit itself, is was disobedience to the Law that made them know sin.

Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
John,
Yes I agree that Adam and Eve did something that God told them not to and this transgressed God's Word and thus it was sin. How ever I do believe that there was some thing wrong with the fruit. This was not natural fruit but God was using something natural to describe some thing spiritual. This "fruit" was in fact knowledge of immorality, drunkenness, selfishness, anger etc. (Gal 5) given to man kind for the first time which we all know when put in action will lead to chaos and premature death.
There was no apple or fig literally but knowledge that would cause death which came from Satan the deceiver. This same knowledge continues today causing premature death and we can only be delivered from by Jesus Christ.

[carelinks]

Fred, I notice you twice claim that the tree was from satan. But the words satan, devil, Lucifer never occur in Genesis. Aren't you rather reading that in to the record?

[John Goddard]

John,
Yes I agree that Adam and Eve did something that God told them not to and this transgressed God's Word and thus it was sin. How ever I do believe that there was some thing wrong with the fruit. This was not natural fruit but God was using something natural to describe some thing spiritual. This "fruit" was in fact knowledge of immorality, drunkenness, selfishness, anger etc. (Gal 5) given to man kind for the first time which we all know when put in action will lead to chaos and premature death.
There was no apple or fig literally but knowledge that would cause death which came from Satan the deceiver. This same knowledge continues today causing premature death and we can only be delivered from by Jesus Christ.

The only knowledge I see is knowledge that they sinned by eating it. Could have been a piece of cake or whatever. That God said not to eat it and they did is what was wrong, not the fruit itself.

According to what is actually in the text.

[John Goddard]

Fred, I notice you twice claim that the tree was from satan. But the words satan, devil, Lucifer never occur in Genesis. Aren't you rather reading that in to the record?

It is understood here, that old serpent:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Though I don't agree the tree was from Satan, it was from God. The suggestion to disobey God was from Satan.

[carelinks]

>The suggestion to disobey God was from Satan.

That also isn't stated in the Genesis record

[carelinks]

"That old serpent"

"That old serpent" (Rev. 12:9) is often misread to mean that the original serpent in the Garden of Eden is now a dragon in the sky. But care in thought and Biblical exposition is lacking in such a view. The orthodox understanding is that Satan sinned in Heaven, and was thrown down to earth, where he tempted Eve in the form of a serpent. But Rev. 12:9 is a prophecy of the future, just prior to the return of Christ to earth, saying that then there will be a conflict "in heaven"- which we understand to be figurative language. The orthodox interpretation does violence to the obvious chronology, and is evidently an opportunistic grabbing hold of Biblical phrases with no attention at all to their context, and stringing them together to justify popular Christianity's adoption of Jewish and pagan myths about the Devil. In passing, note how Gen. 3:15 prophesies that God will put hostility between the serpent and the woman. This is not what we would expect to hear if this were indeed speaking of a pre-existent Christ and Satan. According to the orthodox understanding, the enmity between them occurred in Heaven before Satan supposedly came down to earth. Notice, too, that according to the Biblical record in Gen. 3:15 it is God who created this hostility, whereas the common view implies it was Satan's hatred of God which was the original enmity. We read that the dragon / serpent's "place" was not "found" in Heaven as a result of the final struggle (Rev. 12:8). The same term is to be found in Rev. 20:11, where we read that the 'Heaven and earth' had no place found for them in Heaven as a result of Christ's final sitting in judgment. Clearly, 'Heaven and earth' are figurative- used here, as so often in the Bible, to refer to a system of things. Notice how the Devil / dragon / serpent are thus paralleled with the 'Heaven and earth'. This worldly system of things in the last days, the dragon / serpent power, will be no more after the final judgment seat of Christ. We see all this prefigured in how the rejected Esau came before his father Isaac, typical of the rejection of the wicked at the final judgment, and "found no place", despite his tears and gnashing of teeth (Heb. 12:17). The rejected people at the final judgment will "not be able" to enter God's Kingdom then (Lk. 13:24)- and the same Greek word is used in Rev. 12:8 to describe how the serpent / Devil system of people will not "prevail". Clearly the reference of Rev. 12 is to the very last day, when Christ returns to earth in judgment. The serpent 'not prevailing' and 'finding no place' with God in 'Heaven' refers [in the light of the same terms used in other Bible passages] to what happens at the final judgment, at Christ's second coming, and it is therefore not descriptive of some past events in Eden. It's also noteworthy that the serpent / Devil is 'cast down' from Heaven to make "woe" for "the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea" (Rev. 12:12). This hardly sounds like the orthodox Satan of Paradise Lost being thrown down to earth to make trouble for just Adam and Eve. The people who inhabit "the sea" rather than the earth surely indicates that we are to understand all this literally. And it is "the serpent" who is thrown down from Heaven to the earth / sea. Orthodox thinking holds that Satan was cast down and became a serpent here on earth rather than being a serpent "in Heaven" as Rev. 12 requires. In any case, the woman in Rev. 12 is persecuted by the serpent rather than being charmed and tempted by him; and she escapes from him by fleeing into "the wilderness", which makes the serpent mad with her (Rev. 12:13-17). None of this Biblical testimony fits the orthodox interpretation of the passage- it directly contradicts it.

The "old serpent" may be a reference to the characteristics of the serpent whom we meet in Genesis. The serpent-Eve incident played itself out in history, and still does, in that the children of the woman [God's people] are tempted and now threatened by the powers of sin and sinful organizations. Thus Paul could say that in the same way as the serpent tempted Eve, so Jewish false teachers in the early church were tempting the true bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:3). So it was again in the persecution of true Christians by the Roman empire, which Rev. 12 initially refers to; so it was throughout history; and so it will be in the time of the final tribulation before the second coming of Christ. My specific suggestions as to the fulfillment of Rev. 12 in the latter day tribulation can be found in The Last Days Chapter 12-7.

The Greek archaios, translated "old" in Rev. 12:9 and Rev. 20:2, can easily be misread as meaning simply 'the archaic / very old' serpent. But archaois is a form of the Greek root arche- the dragon power of Rev. 12 is the arch-serpent, the archetypical serpent. It doesn't necessarily mean that the serpent is very old. For the serpent who tempted Eve suffered from the curse which came upon all other "beasts of the field" (Gen. 3:1), and died. We see serpents today eating dust and crawling on their bellies, living and dying like any other creature. The arche serpent doesn't therefore mean 'the very very old serpent, the animal who tempted Eve, is still actually alive'. We meet the word arche elsewhere in the context of meaning 'archetype' rather than 'having been in existence from the beginning of Biblical history': "The principles (Gk. arche) of Christ" (Heb. 6:1); "the first (Gk. arche) principles of the oracles of God" (Heb. 5:12); and quite commonly arche is simply translated as "magistrates", "rulers", "principalities"- the ordering, arch-principles and foundations of society (Lk. 12:11; 20:20; Rom. 8:38; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:10,15; Tit. 3:1). In line with this understanding, I think we could fairly paraphrase Rev. 12:9 as: "The great dragon, the classic, typical serpent, the thinking and behaviour of Eden's snake played out all over again in classic role, the Gentile / Roman Devil and the Jewish Satan, an evil system adversarial to God's true people".

Austin Farrar coined the term "a rebirth of images" (1) to describe what's going on in Revelation. Old Testament images are taken up and given a new focus; and this is what's happened with the images of the serpent. It's not a reference to the same serpent as was in Eden- but a rebirth of that image. G.B. Caird has commented on the very common error of interpretation made with Rev. 12: "Later Christian tradition, by the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, treated this as a precosmic event... quite failing to recognize that John's imagery had an earthly referent" (2). What Caird is saying, in dense theological language, is that Christian folk have over literally interpreted the reference to the serpent, assuming that Rev. 12 is talking about something happening before creation, when in fact it is referring to things happening on earth in John's own generation.



(1) Austin Farrar, A Rebirth Of Images (Boston: Beacon Press, 1963).

(2) G.B. Caird, The Language And Imagery Of The Bible (London: Duckworth, 1988) p. 55.

From http://www.realdevil.info/5-32.htm

[Moksha]

What did Adam and Eve eat when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil? What are your thoughts on this subject as I believe the tree was a spiritual tree from Satan himself that gave man and woman spirits that directed us to sin. What I find ammusing is that in some Religious circles is that the tree was an apple tree.

What I find amusing is that people believe it was a real event.
It's just a myth to account for what we percieve as "good" and "evil".

There was no tree. There was no fruit. There was no serpent.

Moksha

[John Goddard]

>The suggestion to disobey God was from Satan.

That also isn't stated in the Genesis record

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Doesn't have to be, Satan is revealed in Revelation as being the old Serpent, and Jesus also says it here, the Serpent being the murderer of Adam and all humanity.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Your next long post is just a lot of scrambling to avoid the obvious.

[carelinks]

Hi John
>Your next long post is just a lot of scrambling to avoid the obvious.

:))

Well, thanks for reading it anyway. It's how I see it... a reference to Satan as "the old serpent" doesn't- to my mind- have to mean that the serpent was Satan. If this were the case, I find it very odd that this isn't mentioned in Genesis but we have to wait until the last book of the Bible to learn that. My point in that long rambling post was that the 'Satan' entity described in Rev. 12 had the characteristics of the serpent in Eden.

Anyway, sincerely, thanks for reading the post and considering it at least.

Duncan

[John Goddard]

Hi John
>Your next long post is just a lot of scrambling to avoid the obvious.

:))

Well, thanks for reading it anyway. It's how I see it... a reference to Satan as "the old serpent" doesn't- to my mind- have to mean that the serpent was Satan. If this were the case, I find it very odd that this isn't mentioned in Genesis but we have to wait until the last book of the Bible to learn that. My point in that long rambling post was that the 'Satan' entity described in Rev. 12 had the characteristics of the serpent in Eden.

Anyway, sincerely, thanks for reading the post and considering it at least.

Duncan

Well maybe that was rude I apologize. Maybe I should explain my view more, which parallels a common Jewish view.

Adam originally had no need for animal instincts, every physical need was provided for: food, shelter, etc.

The Serpent as a beast of the field represents the animal nature "married" to Adam and all humanity once he followed it instead of God. After that man had to work and use his animal instinct for material needs.

It is a byproduct of Adam's sin, but not necessarily sinful for us, even though we are still bound to it and it eventually brings us down along with Adam into physical death, the first of generational curses.

However when that animal nature and desire for material things gets out of control and exceeds the Law, then it becomes Satan and by following that and not God, you take the Mark of the Beast.

So us Christians seek help from God to keep divorced from that Satan nature right now, and to be eventually divorced from that beast nature that keeps us in bondage to the Law, material things, and physical death.

So you are a little correct to think the animal instinct we got from the Serpent is different from the Satan nature to sin we got from the Serpent. But Satan and the Serpent are nevertheless intertwined as one package received by Adam when he disobeyed God.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, I notice you twice claim that the tree was from satan. But the words satan, devil, Lucifer never occur in Genesis. Aren't you rather reading that in to the record?
Yes Carelinks I am reading Satan/Devil/Lucifer into this. This would have been man's first encounter with Satan/Devil/Lucifer who deceived by speaking Adam and Eve into eating from the Tree of Knowledge that would lead unto sin and death to man kind. It certainly was not God nor would have been any other identity.
If it was not Satan/Devil/Lucifer who or what else was in the Garden of Eden to cause deception, sin and death?

[FredFlanders]

The only knowledge I see is knowledge that they sinned by eating it. Could have been a piece of cake or whatever. That God said not to eat it and they did is what was wrong, not the fruit itself.

According to what is actually in the text.

John,
I do not believe God would tell us not to eat some thing unless it was harmful to us. This was a lesson to us to obey when He speaks to us or we will suffer the consequences. There was some thing on the Tree of Knowledge that would cause us harm. If what God speaks to us is vanity and pointless commandments then we are not going to listen to Him. It would be like some one crying wolf all the time and there is no wolf. Eventually no one will listen. So when God said not to eat from the tree, this was because there was some thing truly harmful to us.

[FredFlanders]

What I find amusing is that people believe it was a real event.
It's just a myth to account for what we percieve as "good" and "evil".

There was no tree. There was no fruit. There was no serpent.

Moksha

Moksha,
I do believe God was describing some thing natural to describe some thing spiritual. And the Tree of Knowledge had something that sounded good to us but were in fact were evil and would cause us harm. This is parallel to when Jesus told us to "beware of the unleavened bread of the scribes and pharisees". It was not about bread but the words they spoke.

[Moksha]

I see it as Man creating a physical senario to account for a spiritual separation from God and his fellow man.
What in a psychological view might be seen as the birth of Ego.

Moksha.

[John Goddard]

John,
I do not believe God would tell us not to eat some thing unless it was harmful to us. This was a lesson to us to obey when He speaks to us or we will suffer the consequences. There was some thing on the Tree of Knowledge that would cause us harm. If what God speaks to us is vanity and pointless commandments then we are not going to listen to Him. It would be like some one crying wolf all the time and there is no wolf. Eventually no one will listen. So when God said not to eat from the tree, this was because there was some thing truly harmful to us.

At face value, God being omniscient would have known the Serpent would make the fruit an object of temptation, therefore God may have said not to eat it in order that they should know not to ever listen to the Serpent.

I don't believe the fruit had magical properties on its own. So the lesson is, it's not what you eat, but why you are eating it. Which goes back to:

Matthew 15:17-19 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

[FredFlanders]

[QUOTE=John Goddard;2664746].
]
John, I do agree with your last post other than I do believe the tree showed man knowledge of evil for the first time. Thus a tree of Knowledge. God gave man free choice. The serpent deceived man into believing this knowledge was good but in fact was evil. Man still uses this knowledge today for gain or temperary pleasure but as we know is all in vanity.

[John Goddard]

John, I do agree with your last post other than I do believe the tree showed man knowledge of evil for the first time. Thus a tree of Knowledge. God gave man free choice. The serpent deceived man into believing this knowledge was good but in fact was evil. Man still uses this knowledge today for gain or temperary pleasure but as we know is all in vanity.

The knowledge of evil they got was knowing they had sinned by eating the fruit when God said not to eat it.

On its own there was no special properties in the fruit itself, as far as the text says. It could have been a cookie, but if God said not to eat it and they did, then they would know evil because they did evil by disobeying God.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

What I find amusing is that people believe it was a real event.
It's just a myth to account for what we percieve as "good" and "evil".

There was no tree. There was no fruit. There was no serpent.

Moksha
You are not far off the mark. We, incarnated in human bodies, have limited mental capacity. As a part of God but separated from him for his divine purpose we cannot comprehend God. It is these two essential realizations that are important. Moses gave that understanding to the people he led out of Egypt through the story in Genesis.

Lets look at a few parts of the history. Moses arrives back on Pharoah's doorstep at the age of 80 and says "hey big guy I'm here to lead all your slaves away. " Not only did he have to get Pharoah to go along but he also had to get all the slaves to follow him. He does this (doing what he is told by God). Wow, what a display of power that was. So now we have a lot of people who are wondering why (after they walked on dry ground and saw Pharoah's army drown) they can't just be handed the good life. It's a case of social dissonance. They are saying "Hey Moses, we are chosen by God so where is the life of luxury?" In fact we have a leadership crisis and a lot of people want to go back to Egypt. Moses can't give what he himself doesn't have which is an understanding of God. God is not going to give either Moses or the people full comprehension because it is beyond the capability of the human mind. They have to understand 2 things. 1. We came from God (and by definition are therefore part of God). 2. We are separated from God and will not attain to heaven until we do his will (eradicate sin from our hearts and therefore our actions towards God and that includes towards others). Of course no one can enter heaven solely through their own works but that understanding is not critical to the tasks before Moses.

I'm sure there are many members here who will read this and have alternate views. Some will accuse me of heresy. Take a guess how I will respond. Even my response will draw accusations of being disingenuous. :flowers:

[FredFlanders]

The knowledge of evil they got was knowing they had sinned by eating the fruit when God said not to eat it.

On its own there was no special properties in the fruit itself, as far as the text says. It could have been a cookie, but if God said not to eat it and they did, then they would know evil because they did evil by disobeying God.

John,
I still see the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil having the fruit as we read in Gal 5 v 19-21 and this is why God told Adam and Eve not to eat from this tree as this was the bad fruit that would lead us to death. It was never about apples, figs, cakes or cookies but about a tree that would give us a sinful nature.

[John Goddard]

John,
I still see the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil having the fruit as we read in Gal 5 v 19-21 and this is why God told Adam and Eve not to eat from this tree as this was the bad fruit that would lead us to death. It was never about apples, figs, cakes or cookies but about a tree that would give us a sinful nature.

They sinned before they even ate the fruit, the decision to do it and disobey God was sinful. So I disagree that they got sin nature from the fruit.

[FredFlanders]

They sinned before they even ate the fruit, the decision to do it and disobey God was sinful. So I disagree that they got sin nature from the fruit.

Adam and Eve's first transgression/sin was not to obey God and eat from the tree. The sin was the action and not the thought. Then the result from eating from the tree was knowledge of sin (this happened after they ate from the tree and not before). Thus they knew they were naked (did not have the protection or covering of God). From this point man's sinful nature began, some of which we read in Gal 5 v 19-21because this tree was more than an apple, fig etc but gave knowledge to man on sin. God knew that this tree would teach man to transgress His Word and was a product of Satan/Devil/Lucifer and would lead man to death.
I myself am a Christian and are still fed sinful thoughts from the enemy as the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is still here but only by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit I do not take action on those thoughts other wise I transgress His Word. Now I am able to eat from the Tree of Life as this was given to me when I was filled with the Holy Spirit and am now led by the Spirit.
John we may be speaking the same. I am not quite sure?

[John Goddard]

Adam and Eve's first transgression/sin was not to obey God and eat from the tree. The sin was the action and not the thought. Then the result from eating from the tree was knowledge of sin (this happened after they ate from the tree and not before). Thus they knew they were naked (did not have the protection or covering of God). From this point man's sinful nature began, some of which we read in Gal 5 v 19-21because this tree was more than an apple, fig etc but gave knowledge to man on sin. God knew that this tree would teach man to transgress His Word and was a product of Satan/Devil/Lucifer and would lead man to death.
I myself am a Christian and are still fed sinful thoughts from the enemy as the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is still here but only by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit I do not take action on those thoughts other wise I transgress His Word. Now I am able to eat from the Tree of Life as this was given to me when I was filled with the Holy Spirit and am now led by the Spirit.
John we may be speaking the same. I am not quite sure?

Pretty much the same, probably. I'm thinking kind of along the lines of a signal light, go (eat) or stop (don't eat). Driving through it according to the Law wouldn't give you knowledge of your breaking the Law, since there is nothing bad about the signal light itself (figs).

But if the light is red and you go anyway (eat when it says don't eat), then you realize you've broken the Law (naked and ashamed, Revelation 16:15).

And if you lie to a cop (God) about it, then you've added to the problem by not being honest (fig leaves hiding sin Matthew 21:19 / covering up bad or no figs which symbolize works, Jeremiah 24).

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Adam and Eve's first transgression/sin was not to obey God and eat from the tree. The sin was the action and not the thought. Then the result from eating from the tree was knowledge of sin (this happened after they ate from the tree and not before). Thus they knew they were naked (did not have the protection or covering of God). From this point man's sinful nature began, some of which we read in Gal 5 v 19-21because this tree was more than an apple, fig etc but gave knowledge to man on sin. God knew that this tree would teach man to transgress His Word and was a product of Satan/Devil/Lucifer and would lead man to death.
I myself am a Christian and are still fed sinful thoughts from the enemy as the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is still here but only by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit I do not take action on those thoughts other wise I transgress His Word. Now I am able to eat from the Tree of Life as this was given to me when I was filled with the Holy Spirit and am now led by the Spirit.
John we may be speaking the same. I am not quite sure?
Fred I find this very interesting. Do you not understand that a ,man who lusts in his heart after another man's wife is guilty of adultery even though he commits no physical act?

[John Goddard]

Fred I find this very interesting. Do you not understand that a ,man who lusts in his heart after another man's wife is guilty of adultery even though he commits no physical act?

I was going to mention this too. They also apparently didn't understand that an evil thought was a sin, since they felt naked and ashamed after they did the evil action.

Which seems to mirror Pharisees and others Jesus lectured about cleaning the inside so the outside is clean too.

[FredFlanders]

Fred I find this very interesting. Do you not understand that a ,man who lusts in his heart after another man's wife is guilty of adultery even though he commits no physical act?

Eeset this is some thing Jesus quoted to natural thinking man because of our fallen nature before His death on our behalf and His resurrection where now we have the opportunity to be filled and led by the Holy Spirit. These carnal thoughts were the fruit given to us from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (and as I keep saying was not physical fruit such as apples, figs, cakes etc)
These thoughts are from Lucifer/Satan/Devil himself and this carnal/demonic nature was buried in the waters of Baptism. Although these carnal/demonic thoughts can still be with us (as our mind is renewed day by day), can cause temptation, we are not held guilty unless we take physical action on these thoughts. We still have to choose to follow the Holy Spirit or the Devil. If we decide to follow the Devil by taking action on these thoughts we will be held accountable on Judgment day. To those that follow the Holy Spirit these thoughts are overcome by the one who is greater than us, Jesus Christ our Savior. To the one who gives over to these thoughts either has not known Christ or chooses to walk away from their Savior

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset this is some thing Jesus quoted to natural thinking man because of our fallen nature before His death on our behalf and His resurrection where now we have the opportunity to be filled and led by the Holy Spirit. These carnal thoughts were the fruit given to us from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (and as I keep saying was not physical fruit such as apples, figs, cakes etc)
These thoughts are from Lucifer/Satan/Devil himself and this carnal/demonic nature was buried in the waters of Baptism. Although these carnal/demonic thoughts can still be with us (as our mind is renewed day by day), can cause temptation, we are not held guilty unless we take physical action on these thoughts. We still have to choose to follow the Holy Spirit or the Devil. If we decide to follow the Devil by taking action on these thoughts we will be held accountable on Judgment day. To those that follow the Holy Spirit these thoughts are overcome by the one who is greater than us, Jesus Christ our Savior. To the one who gives over to these thoughts either has not known Christ or chooses to walk away from their Savior
You speak eloquently yet avoid the nexus. Being forgiven means not that you can no longer sin. Every action is preceded by a thought. The mind is the builder. Your thoughts are the sin. The actions are simply the manifestation of that sin in the material realm. This is what Jesus gave.
I send you my love. The will of the Father is to obliterate avarice, greed, hatred, lust and other sin from our free will. I do my best to live the commandment He gave us to love one another. This is not new. It is not grievous nor onerous. He will abide in us and we in Him just as the Father abides in Him and He in the Father. My actions are only the manifestation of my sin when I fail and assert my separation, my self, my thoughts outside his will. All my heart, mind and soul must love God and others. In failing (which is the sin) I am saved only through His love and the blood of the lamb. He is the Way, the only Way.
May the peace of God be with and upon you. Blessings. :flowers:

[FredFlanders]

You speak eloquently yet avoid the nexus. Being forgiven means not that you can no longer sin. Every action is preceded by a thought. The mind is the builder. Your thoughts are the sin. The actions are simply the manifestation of that sin in the material realm. This is what Jesus gave.
I send you my love. The will of the Father is to obliterate avarice, greed, hatred, lust and other sin from our free will. I do my best to live the commandment He gave us to love one another. This is not new. It is not grievous nor onerous. He will abide in us and we in Him just as the Father abides in Him and He in the Father. My actions are only the manifestation of my sin when I fail and assert my separation, my self, my thoughts outside his will. All my heart, mind and soul must love God and others. In failing (which is the sin) I am saved only through His love and the blood of the lamb. He is the Way, the only Way.
May the peace of God be with and upon you. Blessings. :flowers:

Eeset,
By what you say it sounds as if you some times give over to the some sins of your thoughts. There is something missing in your Christian walk as it is impossible to sin if you are born again and led by the Holy Spirit. Are you sure you have the Holy Spirit because you will have the signs as Jesus said in Mark 16 v 16-18. As many Religions will tell their followers that they have the Holy Spirit yet do not or even know what the Holy Spirit is.
I say this in all due respect to you as I was once in your situation until the empowerment of the Holy Spirit came within me and it is only this Spirit that gives us power to overcome sin continually. This Holy Spirit is assentual to our walk in Christ and our redemption at His return.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset,
By what you say it sounds as if you some times give over to the some sins of your thoughts. There is something missing in your Christian walk as it is impossible to sin if you are born again and led by the Holy Spirit. Are you sure you have the Holy Spirit because you will have the signs as Jesus said in Mark 16 v 16-18. As many Religions will tell their followers that they have the Holy Spirit yet do not or even know what the Holy Spirit is.
I say this in all due respect to you as I was once in your situation until the empowerment of the Holy Spirit came within me and it is only this Spirit that gives us power to overcome sin continually. This Holy Spirit is assentual to our walk in Christ and our redemption at His return.
I was once in your situation. Then Jesus spoke to me. He did not use that "small inner voice" but rather a human voice which I heard as clearly as I hear any other living person. Make no mistake Fred, the holy spirit fills me. What I am attempting to communicate to you is probably impossible for you to accept. There is nothing "missing" in my Christian walk. Each day I grow a tiny bit closer to my destiny. Jesus has prepared a place for both of us as well as countless other souls. He is the Way. Trust him and live the final commandment that he gave to love each other. I sometimes feel sad that so many people who profess to be Christians pay lip service to the reality that Jesus lives. He does. But my occasional fleeting moments of sadness are overwhelmed by the joy in my life. I pray fervently that more and more people will truly invite Jesus to walk and talk with them. I pray that the commandment to love God with all our hearts, mind and souls and others as ourselves becomes not just a commandment but rather a living experience in the lives of all people. I can not forgive my own sins and certainly not those of anyone else but I can wipe the pride, lust, greed, avarice, self exaltation and other thoughts from my daily experiences through love. Therefore please understand that no matter what our differences may be in life I do not seek to exalt myself above you. I seek to love you. God's judgment is righteous and He has given all that is here in this world to Jesus his only begotten son. I am both humbled and joyous to be guided in my walk by Jesus. I send you love.
:flowers:

[FredFlanders]

I was once in your situation. Then Jesus spoke to me. He did not use that "small inner voice" but rather a human voice which I heard as clearly as I hear any other living person. Make no mistake Fred, the holy spirit fills me. What I am attempting to communicate to you is probably impossible for you to accept. There is nothing "missing" in my Christian walk. Each day I grow a tiny bit closer to my destiny. Jesus has prepared a place for both of us as well as countless other souls. He is the Way. Trust him and live the final commandment that he gave to love each other. I sometimes feel sad that so many people who profess to be Christians pay lip service to the reality that Jesus lives. He does. But my occasional fleeting moments of sadness are overwhelmed by the joy in my life. I pray fervently that more and more people will truly invite Jesus to walk and talk with them. I pray that the commandment to love God with all our hearts, mind and souls and others as ourselves becomes not just a commandment but rather a living experience in the lives of all people. I can not forgive my own sins and certainly not those of anyone else but I can wipe the pride, lust, greed, avarice, self exaltation and other thoughts from my daily experiences through love. Therefore please understand that no matter what our differences may be in life I do not seek to exalt myself above you. I seek to love you. God's judgment is righteous and He has given all that is here in this world to Jesus his only begotten son. I am both humbled and joyous to be guided in my walk by Jesus. I send you love.
:flowers:

Eeset,
I can relate to much of what you have said and may miss interpret what you have said. Please correct me if I have done so. I don't believe a Spirit filled Christian should deliberately or knowingly sin as the old sinful man was buried in baptism to rise into Christ. Christians can unknowingly sin though our lack of knowledge as our mind is renewed day by day as we grow in Christ but to knowingly sin isn't acceptable. Many so called Christians don't bury their old nature and God does not lead them by the Holy Spirit. This is not about pride or being better than any one else but entering into the New Covenant and knowing the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6 v 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Col 2 v 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset,
I can relate to much of what you have said and may miss interpret what you have said. Please correct me if I have done so. I don't believe a Spirit filled Christian should deliberately or knowingly sin as the old sinful man was buried in baptism to rise into Christ. Christians can unknowingly sin though our lack of knowledge as our mind is renewed day by day as we grow in Christ but to knowingly sin isn't acceptable. Many so called Christians don't bury their old nature and God does not lead them by the Holy Spirit. This is not about pride or being better than any one else but entering into the New Covenant and knowing the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6 v 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Col 2 v 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
I agree that a spirit filled Christian does not choose to sin. Doing the will of our Father becomes more and more the natural, pleasant and joyous way to live. In our society we are, however, surrounded and bombarded continually by sights and sounds that seek to create lust, avarice and all manner of emotions of this material incarnation. That latest diet fad to become slim and beautiful so that we can wear the latest Victoria Secret fashion and "catch the eye" of the "hunk" at the party would be one example. Contrast that with the desire to glory in the body provided by God through proper eating and exercise. Not to attract a man but to be all that is appealing as is a flower in the morning which spreads its pedals to be kissed by the refreshing rays of the sun. Many would say what is the difference. Both seek beauty. The answer lies in the heart. What is the motivating desire. Is it self glorification and lust or is it joy in being a beautiful material manifestation of spirit growing closer to God?

Paul dealt with these things and put his prayers and wishes into letters to the young churches among the gentiles. He always maintained that he was chief among sinners and saved through the grace of God although he also pointed out that his very core desires were also refined and aligned more with the will of the father as he (Paul) continued his walk. You can see in Romans where he clearly states that certain ways of life are an abomination yet he continues on to point out that no one is without sin and that we should not condemn others. He is drawing contrasts and admonishing all to love others. I find his words very helpful but often misunderstood or taken out of context. Jesus has admonished me to not quibble with others over trifles. It is inconsequential whether my or your reading of Scripture is accurate on some specific point. What is paramount is that I follow the commandment to love God with my heart, mind and soul and others. Expunging or refining my thoughts and therefore my actions to be devoid of condemnation, pride, lust, hatred and other emotions that separate me from Jesus/God/Holy Spirit is where I shall put my efforts.

I am pitiful at eloquent textual expression do please forgive me if my manner of expressing these things is not clear.

May you be blessed with the peace of God which truly passes all understanding.
:flowers:

[Xmansmommy]

What did Adam and Eve eat when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil? What are your thoughts on this subject as I believe the tree was a spiritual tree from Satan himself that gave man and woman spirits that directed us to sin. What I find ammusing is that in some Religious circles is that the tree was an apple tree.

I have an article here (http://www.yahweh.org/publications/articles/tree/tree_of_life.pdf) that explains that the two different trees in the garden are symbolic of the two different paths laid before us. The Tree of Life being Messiah and The Tree of the KoG&E being our own passions. It is quite interesting.

It is mainly about the Tree of Life and it does go into more detail about Who that is plus it's in PDF format which is frustrating, but I hope you enjoy it nonetheless.

[FredFlanders]

I have an article here (http://www.yahweh.org/publications/articles/tree/tree_of_life.pdf) that explains that the two different trees in the garden are symbolic of the two different paths laid before us. The Tree of Life being Messiah and The Tree of the KoG&E being our own passions. It is quite interesting.

It is mainly about the Tree of Life and it does go into more detail about Who that is plus it's in PDF format which is frustrating, but I hope you enjoy it nonetheless.

Thank you X,
That was very informative and can relate much to what is written in this article.

[FredFlanders]

I agree that a spirit filled Christian does not choose to sin. Doing the will of our Father becomes more and more the natural, pleasant and joyous way to live. In our society we are, however, surrounded and bombarded continually by sights and sounds that seek to create lust, avarice and all manner of emotions of this material incarnation. That latest diet fad to become slim and beautiful so that we can wear the latest Victoria Secret fashion and "catch the eye" of the "hunk" at the party would be one example. Contrast that with the desire to glory in the body provided by God through proper eating and exercise. Not to attract a man but to be all that is appealing as is a flower in the morning which spreads its pedals to be kissed by the refreshing rays of the sun. Many would say what is the difference. Both seek beauty. The answer lies in the heart. What is the motivating desire. Is it self glorification and lust or is it joy in being a beautiful material manifestation of spirit growing closer to God?

Paul dealt with these things and put his prayers and wishes into letters to the young churches among the gentiles. He always maintained that he was chief among sinners and saved through the grace of God although he also pointed out that his very core desires were also refined and aligned more with the will of the father as he (Paul) continued his walk. You can see in Romans where he clearly states that certain ways of life are an abomination yet he continues on to point out that no one is without sin and that we should not condemn others. He is drawing contrasts and admonishing all to love others. I find his words very helpful but often misunderstood or taken out of context. Jesus has admonished me to not quibble with others over trifles. It is inconsequential whether my or your reading of Scripture is accurate on some specific point. What is paramount is that I follow the commandment to love God with my heart, mind and soul and others. Expunging or refining my thoughts and therefore my actions to be devoid of condemnation, pride, lust, hatred and other emotions that separate me from Jesus/God/Holy Spirit is where I shall put my efforts.

I am pitiful at eloquent textual expression do please forgive me if my manner of expressing these things is not clear.

May you be blessed with the peace of God which truly passes all understanding.
:flowers:

Eeset,
First of all your textual expressions are excellent and understood more so than most others. Some times as you know people can read what is said and some times interpret totally the opposite on what is being said. The same can happen when we read the Bible.
When Paul quoted that he was chief among sinners this was his description of himself before his redemption by Christ. Paul in fact chastised those in the Church that remained in sin. Many Christians still maintain that because of our carnal nature we still sin and forgiven by God because Christ died on behalf of our sin. To those that express this view have not and do not know who and what the Holy Spirit is. It is only by the gift and empowerment of the Holy Spirit can we put to death for ever the sinful nature that we have and are exposed to every day. If one claims to have the Holy Spirit then they will know they have the power not to sin. Many Christians claim to have the Holy Spirit because they have repented and claim to follow Jesus yet are too stubborn to get baptized or seek for the Holy Spirit. When you receive the Holy Spirit you are given freely the signs Jesus said would follow believers. (Mark 16 v 16-18). This is a promise to all believers without prejudice to any one. All believers can receive but they must seek the promise and put aside all preconceived teaching and ideas that go against this promise made by Jesus.
Eeset I will start another thread on this as we are starting to get away from the original subject and put the thread in Christianity 201.

All God's blessings.
Fred.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset,
First of all your textual expressions are excellent and understood more so than most others. Some times as you know people can read what is said and some times interpret totally the opposite on what is being said. The same can happen when we read the Bible.
When Paul quoted that he was chief among sinners this was his description of himself before his redemption by Christ. Paul in fact chastised those in the Church that remained in sin. Many Christians still maintain that because of our carnal nature we still sin and forgiven by God because Christ died on behalf of our sin. To those that express this view have not and do not know who and what the Holy Spirit is. It is only by the gift and empowerment of the Holy Spirit can we put to death for ever the sinful nature that we have and are exposed to every day. If one claims to have the Holy Spirit then they will know they have the power not to sin. Many Christians claim to have the Holy Spirit because they have repented and claim to follow Jesus yet are too stubborn to get baptized or seek for the Holy Spirit. When you receive the Holy Spirit you are given freely the signs Jesus said would follow believers. (Mark 16 v 16-18). This is a promise to all believers without prejudice to any one. All believers can receive but they must seek the promise and put aside all preconceived teaching and ideas that go against this promise made by Jesus.
Eeset I will start another thread on this as we are starting to get away from the original subject and put the thread in Christianity 201.

All God's blessings.
Fred.

Thank you Fred.
As you probably know I must request special permission to post in the Christianity 201 area. I find that delightfully amusing. Blessings to you. :flowers:

[Xmansmommy]

Thank you X,
That was very informative and can relate much to what is written in this article.

You're quite welcome. :smile:

[FredFlanders]

Thank you Fred.
As you probably know I must request special permission to post in the Christianity 201 area. I find that delightfully amusing. Blessings to you. :flowers:


I did not know that Eeset. I find you very practical, down to earth and search matters out without all the gloss. Anyway we do respect the moderators and there is a blessing in it for you whether you are right or wrong on the matter.

You can copy and still answer on this thread if needed.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I did not know that Eeset. I find you very practical, down to earth and search matters out without all the gloss. Anyway we do respect the moderators and there is a blessing in it for you whether you are right or wrong on the matter.

You can copy and still answer on this thread if needed.
I did just read the other thread. My understanding Fred is that pride is not only sin but it is part and parcel of exaltation of self above others. You seem to make a distinction between knowingly sinning and sinning in ignorance. Jesus does not draw such a line. Sin is separation from God. Either a person is a sinner or a person is not. When a person is living in every part of the commandment to love God with our hearts, minds and souls and others as ourselves there is a reuniting with God just as Jesus accomplished. Jesus did not enter into this manifestation in materiality as a sinner but rather to do the will of our Father. His love of all others was demonstrated vividly. Did he lay down his life in Crucifixion out of love for the righteous? Did he come to save the righteous? He said not. He will tell you today if you seek him out and simply ask him. He lives. The comforter is also a manifestation of God. The comforter (holy spirit) in filling us comforts but does not prevent sin. The holy spirit does not comfort the sinless. Those who sin no more do not need the comfort for one who is sinless in all thoughts and deeds is reunited with the Father. I myself can not claim to have no sin in my thoughts. The mind is the builder. No action is ever taken without being preceded by a thought. As we think so we are. Should my enemies be pounding nails through my feet and wrists I pray that I could be at that moment so filled with love for my enemies that I too could ask God to forgive them. I am not sinless enough to accomplish that in my thoughts, heart and soul. Is it any less a sin that the thoughts I would experience at such a moment come not from my desires but from my nature? The standard is total. It is love with all my heart, mind and soul. It does not separate sin into willing and involuntary parts.

I pray that some part of this text can be of benefit to you. It is given with my love. When you have read it know that you and all others are in my prayers. I pray for all (including me). The father hath not willed that any soul should perish.

Blessings. :flowers:

[FredFlanders]

I did just read the other thread. My understanding Fred is that pride is not only sin but it is part and parcel of exaltation of self above others. You seem to make a distinction between knowingly sinning and sinning in ignorance. Jesus does not draw such a line. Sin is separation from God. Either a person is a sinner or a person is not. When a person is living in every part of the commandment to love God with our hearts, minds and souls and others as ourselves there is a reuniting with God just as Jesus accomplished. Jesus did not enter into this manifestation in materiality as a sinner but rather to do the will of our Father. His love of all others was demonstrated vividly. Did he lay down his life in Crucifixion out of love for the righteous? Did he come to save the righteous? He said not. He will tell you today if you seek him out and simply ask him. He lives. The comforter is also a manifestation of God. The comforter (holy spirit) in filling us comforts but does not prevent sin. The holy spirit does not comfort the sinless. Those who sin no more do not need the comfort for one who is sinless in all thoughts and deeds is reunited with the Father. I myself can not claim to have no sin in my thoughts. The mind is the builder. No action is ever taken without being preceded by a thought. As we think so we are. Should my enemies be pounding nails through my feet and wrists I pray that I could be at that moment so filled with love for my enemies that I too could ask God to forgive them. I am not sinless enough to accomplish that in my thoughts, heart and soul. Is it any less a sin that the thoughts I would experience at such a moment come not from my desires but from my nature? The standard is total. It is love with all my heart, mind and soul. It does not separate sin into willing and involuntary parts.

I pray that some part of this text can be of benefit to you. It is given with my love. When you have read it know that you and all others are in my prayers. I pray for all (including me). The father hath not willed that any soul should perish.

Blessings. :flowers:

Eeset,
Sin is transgression of God's Word. This is why I point out that Jesus commanded his followers to repent (from transgressing God's Word) be baptised and filled with the Holy Spirit. Not to do this is transgressing His Word. Then we are able to be led by the Holy Spirit. Mark 16 v 16-20 will show what happens when you are led by the Holy Spirit. We all have sin in our thoughts but we are not taken to accomplishing those sinful thoughts as they have been defeated by Christ on the cross. Now we are led by the Holy Spirit which allows us now to walk in the Law of God fulfilling our purpose through Christ our redeemer. So called Christians remain is sin because they never received the Holy Spirit and cannot be led by the Holy Spirit but try to give a natural love rather than experiencing the super natural love God can give. E. in all due respect there is another love that empowers believers with the Holy Spirit with signs following as written in the scriptures to all who believe.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset,
Sin is transgression of God's Word. This is why I point out that Jesus commanded his followers to repent (from transgressing God's Word) be baptised and filled with the Holy Spirit. Not to do this is transgressing His Word. Then we are able to be led by the Holy Spirit. Mark 16 v 16-20 will show what happens when you are led by the Holy Spirit. We all have sin in our thoughts but we are not taken to accomplishing those sinful thoughts as they have been defeated by Christ on the cross. Now we are led by the Holy Spirit which allows us now to walk in the Law of God fulfilling our purpose through Christ our redeemer. So called Christians remain is sin because they never received the Holy Spirit and cannot be led by the Holy Spirit but try to give a natural love rather than experiencing the super natural love God can give. E. in all due respect there is another love that empowers believers with the Holy Spirit with signs following as written in the scriptures to all who believe.
Thank you for your enlightening insight Fred. I shall pray for you. He knows your heart. While you may "believe" let me encourage you to seek personal experience with my brother Jesus. I am not talking about some tiny small non verbal "voice" inside your head. I am talking about a real live flesh and blood person in whose presence your very comprehension of life itself will be transformed. This is an understanding I can not begin to provide to you in textual format. Seek. You will not believe me. I know that. I accept that. When you have experienced His company others will not believe you either. But it will not matter.
:flowers:

[FredFlanders]

Thank you for your enlightening insight Fred. I shall pray for you. He knows your heart. While you may "believe" let me encourage you to seek personal experience with my brother Jesus. I am not talking about some tiny small non verbal "voice" inside your head. I am talking about a real live flesh and blood person in whose presence your very comprehension of life itself will be transformed. This is an understanding I can not begin to provide to you in textual format. Seek. You will not believe me. I know that. I accept that. When you have experienced His company others will not believe you either. But it will not matter.
:flowers:


Eeset,
By what I understand by what you are saying sounds more like the act of "Repentance" to me rather than what happens when you are filled with the Holy Spirit. When some one is filled with the Holy Spirit signs follow as written in Mark 16 v 16-20.
What do you believe about the signs in Mark 16 v 16-20?

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Eeset,
By what I understand by what you are saying sounds more like the act of "Repentance" to me rather than what happens when you are filled with the Holy Spirit. When some one is filled with the Holy Spirit signs follow as written in Mark 16 v 16-20.
What do you believe about the signs in Mark 16 v 16-20?
I confirm to you that it is accurate.