Did Paul sin and is it ok for Christians to sin?

[FredFlanders]

Did Paul sin and is it ok for Christians to sin?

When Paul quoted that he was chief among sinners this was his description of himself before his redemption by Christ. Paul in fact chastised those in the Church that remained in sin. Many Christians still maintain that because of our carnal nature we still sin and forgiven by God because Christ died on behalf of our sin. To those that express this view have not and do not know who and what the Holy Spirit is. It is only by the gift and empowerment of the Holy Spirit can we put to death for ever the sinful nature that we have and are exposed to every day. If one claims to have the Holy Spirit then they will know they have the power not to sin. Many Christians claim to have the Holy Spirit because they have repented and claim to follow Jesus yet are too stubborn to get baptized or seek for the Holy Spirit and fall time and time into the temptation of sin. When you receive the Holy Spirit you are given freely the signs Jesus said would follow believers (Mark 16 v 16-18) and the power not to sin. This is a promise to all believers without prejudice to anyone. All believers can receive but they must seek the promise and put aside all preconceived teaching and ideas that go against this promise made by Jesus.

[Obsidian]

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

Had Peter been baptized by the Holy Spirit when he did this?

[FredFlanders]

Had Peter been baptized by the Holy Spirit when he did this?

Obsidian,
Yes Peter was baptised in the Holy Spirit but chose to walk in his old carnal nature going back to his old religious ways. Paul said in subsequent verses in Gal 2 that this is not acceptable. Peter is typical of many Christians who are get empowered with the Holy Spirit but follow their old traditional ways because of the the fear of persecution from those that appose the New Covenant and the signs that Jesus said would follow believers.
Peter like so many Christians who fail to show the light and become people pleasers rather than following the Holy Spirit.
Peter was like one of the foolish virgins.

Matthew 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

[RBerman]

Peter was not only "typical of many Christians." He was typical of all Christians. I'd like to know a man who says that he personally has stopped sinning, and I'd like to interview that man's wife.

[Carrikature]

I think your statement here:

Many Christians still maintain that because of our carnal nature we still sin and forgiven by God because Christ died on behalf of our sin.

is backed by your statement here:

Yes Peter was baptised in the Holy Spirit but chose to walk in his old carnal nature going back to his old religious ways.


Paul in fact chastised those in the Church that remained in sin.

This doesn't imply he was never guilty of sin himself. Do preachers chastise you for sin? Does this make them perfect? Of course not.

I'd also like more scriptural reference that leads you to believe Christians can realistically never sin again.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Did Paul sin and is it ok for Christians to sin?

Yes. No.

When Paul quoted that he was chief among sinners this was his description of himself before his redemption by Christ. (snipping the rest)

Take a look at the passage again:

15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. - 1st Timothy 1:15-16 (NIV)


Notice in verse 15, Paul uses the present tense (I AM the worst). Paul reinforces this in verse 16 saying in his sinful nature, Christ Jesus shows that all can be saved. I don't think Paul is describing himself as sinless here. As he grows in relationship with Jesus, he becomes more and more aware of the depths of sin in him and how much he is dependent on God's mercy. Remember, 1 Timothy is accepted as being written near the end of Paul's life so Paul is more likely looking over his life as a Christian than before.

This of course does not permit the Christian to commit sin. However after our salvation we are forgiven sinners not sinless. We are always dependent on God for forgiveness and this realization should keep us humble before God.

[Jin-Roh]

Fred, are you not concerned that what you're saying is a little presumptuous?

[FredFlanders]

I think your statement here:



is backed by your statement here:






This doesn't imply he was never guilty of sin himself. Do preachers chastise you for sin? Does this make them perfect? Of course not.

I'd also like more scriptural reference that leads you to believe Christians can realistically never sin again.

We are called to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. This is some thing we are called to do every moment of the day and not just on Sundays or when ever. This is why we are baptized in water to be raised into the life of Christ. This is also why we are freely given the gifts as in Mark 16 v 16-18 in order to live in Christ. This is some thing Paul understood.
As I said before if you continue in sin you do not know the Holy Spirit or Christ. Christians can realistically sin again but they are walking away from God if the sin is done intentionally.
We can all sin in ignorance and we are all a work in progress but to knowingly sin is not acceptable.
Christian still perish because of lack of knowledge and get wisdom as it is freely given by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6 v 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Col 2 v 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

[FredFlanders]

Peter was not only "typical of many Christians." He was typical of all Christians. I'd like to know a man who says that he personally has stopped sinning, and I'd like to interview that man's wife.

As I have said before we can all unintentionally sin through ignorance but to deliberately sin knowing the Word of God is not acceptable. Believe it or not there are people in the Church who continually walk in the Holly Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

Yes. No.



Take a look at the passage again:


Notice in verse 15, Paul uses the present tense (I AM the worst). Paul reinforces this in verse 16 saying in his sinful nature, Christ Jesus shows that all can be saved. I don't think Paul is describing himself as sinless here. As he grows in relationship with Jesus, he becomes more and more aware of the depths of sin in him and how much he is dependent on God's mercy. Remember, 1 Timothy is accepted as being written near the end of Paul's life so Paul is more likely looking over his life as a Christian than before.

This of course does not permit the Christian to commit sin. However after our salvation we are forgiven sinners not sinless. We are always dependent on God for forgiveness and this realization should keep us humble before God.TM, I cannot agree that Paul was speaking present tense but in his pre saved days. Paul was not a hyporcrit rebuking others about sin and then sinning himself. Romans 6 v 11 to 23 will show Paul telling us we are now dead to sin and yield unto righteousness.
1r

[RBerman]

As I have said before we can all unintentionally sin through ignorance but to deliberately sin knowing the Word of God is not acceptable. Believe it or not there are people in the Church who continually walk in the Holly Spirit.
Then I'd like to interview the wife of the man who says he only sins in ignorance.
TM, I cannot agree that Paul was speaking present tense but in his pre saved days. Paul was not a hyporcrit rebuking others about sin and then sinning himself. Romans 6 v 11 to 23 will show Paul telling us we are now dead to sin and yield unto righteousness.
There's no hypocrisy in saying, "I sin, but I shouldn't, and neither should you." That sort of commiserative approach is a highly effective way to teach and exhort, actually.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, are you not concerned that what you're saying is a little presumptuous?No JR, we are called to continually walk in the Spirit and not flesh. This is possible if you have recieved the Holy Spirit. Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed?

[Heartablaze]

No JR, we are called to continually walk in the Spirit and not flesh. This is possible if you have recieved the Holy Spirit. Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed?

Fred, do you sin?

[Thoughtful Monk]

TM, I cannot agree that Paul was speaking present tense but in his pre saved days. Paul was not a hyporcrit rebuking others about sin and then sinning himself. Romans 6 v 11 to 23 will show Paul telling us we are now dead to sin and yield unto righteousness.
1r

Of course that begs the question, why did the translators use the present tense. To go your route, the translation would have to be: 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I WAS the worst. (emphasis and change of Scripture mine)

I have read through Romans 6 to 8 several times and I agree there two ways to interprete that block of Scripture. 1) You start a Romans 6 person become a Romans 7 person and then become a Romans 8 person. 2) It takes Paul three chapters to descripe the complexity of living the Christian life. At this time, I go with the second interpretation.


There's no hypocrisy in saying, "I sin, but I shouldn't, and neither should you." That sort of commiserative approach is a highly effective way to teach and exhort, actually.


I agree here. If you admit your sinner (or struggling if sinner is too harsh for you), you can rebuke without appearing to be judgmental. I have given rebukes to Christians brothers before but I always make sure God is calling me to give the rebuke. The Pharisee's hypocrisy was denying they were sinners and needed God while judging other people's sins.

And by the way if you are a KJV onlier, its present tense in 1 Timothy 1:15-16.

[Obsidian]

Fred, if someone does not have the Spirit of God, he is not a son of God. If we believe, we are sons of God. That means if we do not have the Holy Spirit, we must not have believed. Therefore, if we believe, we have the Spirit of God.

See John 3:16 and Romans 8:9

[The Curtmudgeon]

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Note here that John includes himself ("we", "our") with these sinners.

The (hopefully you are also confessing your sins to God) Curtmudgeon

[FredFlanders]

Then I'd like to interview the wife of the man who says he only sins in ignorance.

There's no hypocrisy in saying, "I sin, but I shouldn't, and neither should you." That sort of commiserative approach is a highly effective way to teach and exhort, actually.


RB,
Sin is transgression of the Word of God. How can you sin if have the Holy Spirit and claim to walk in the Spirit? Only those that try to justify themselves by works rather than be guided by the Holy Spirit will always fall short of the the Word of God because they do not walk by faith.

By faith we are baptised in water at the age of understanding to walk in the newness of life in Christ. Those Christians that refuse baptism and do not walk in newness of life transgress the Word of God, do not they reject Christ and sin putting Jesus to shame by continuing in sin.?

[Obsidian]

No one said sin was acceptable. We said it's reality.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, do you sin?

H,
Like Paul I sinned before I became Spirit Filled and are now led by the Holy Spirit. How can I claim to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit and remain in sin. My sinful nature was put to death when I decided to follow Christ. If any one is serious about knowing Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit they will need to turn from sin indefinitely and be led by the Spirit as we read in Mark 16 v 16-20.

[FredFlanders]

No one said sin was acceptable. We said it's reality.

Not to those who truly follow Christ but to those that follow false religion.

[FredFlanders]

Of course that begs the question, why did the translators use the present tense. To go your route, the translation would have to be: 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I WAS the worst. (emphasis and change of Scripture mine)

I have read through Romans 6 to 8 several times and I agree there two ways to interprete that block of Scripture. 1) You start a Romans 6 person become a Romans 7 person and then become a Romans 8 person. 2) It takes Paul three chapters to descripe the complexity of living the Christian life. At this time, I go with the second interpretation.



I agree here. If you admit your sinner (or struggling if sinner is too harsh for you), you can rebuke without appearing to be judgmental. I have given rebukes to Christians brothers before but I always make sure God is calling me to give the rebuke. The Pharisee's hypocrisy was denying they were sinners and needed God while judging other people's sins.

And by the way if you are a KJV onlier, its present tense in 1 Timothy 1:15-16.

TM,

Roman 7 v 24-25 Paul explains that he had been delivered from the body of this death and thanked God that through Jesus Christ he could now serve the law of God.
This was because Paul had now the Holy Spirit and could be led by the Holy Spirit. Paul was no longer under the Law of the OT but now being born again into Christ. (and the mind of Christ as he had received the same Holy Spirit that Christ received and we also can today Mark 16 v 16-20)

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

TM, Paul did not sin once he had the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in him. If you think Paul did deliberately sin after knowing Christ then show me some examples in the scriptures?
Paul's sins were before his redemption when he denied Christ and persecuted the Christians.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, if someone does not have the Spirit of God, he is not a son of God. If we believe, we are sons of God. That means if we do not have the Holy Spirit, we must not have believed. Therefore, if we believe, we have the Spirit of God.

See John 3:16 and Romans 8:9

No O,
Because you believe does not mean you have the Holy Spirit. Here are some examples of believers that believed yet did not have the Holy Spirit. Jesus said signs would accompany those that believed Mark 16 v 16-18.

Acts 10
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

[FredFlanders]

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Note here that John includes himself ("we", "our") with these sinners.

The (hopefully you are also confessing your sins to God) Curtmudgeon

TC,
This scripture was before our redemption by Christ. Now we are called to be filled with the Holy Spirit and led by the Holy Spirit and not the Law.

[wolf_shade]

H,
Like Paul I sinned before I became Spirit Filled and are now led by the Holy Spirit. How can I claim to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit and remain in sin. My sinful nature was put to death when I decided to follow Christ. If any one is serious about knowing Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit they will need to turn from sin indefinitely and be led by the Spirit as we read in Mark 16 v 16-20.

From Romans 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Note the shift in tenses between verse 12 and 13, from past to present. Paul did continue to sin, and was greatly grieved by it, but found solace in the forgiveness of the father.

[wolf_shade]

As I said before if you continue in sin you do not know the Holy Spirit or Christ. Christians can realistically sin again but they are walking away from God if the sin is done intentionally.
You're being inconsistent. Previously you stated that Peter did know the Holy Spirit, but chose incorrectly even after that time. He not only knew Christ and the Holy Spirit but had years of direct experience with the one, and directly chosen representation and apointment of the other. Do you claim he rejected the Holy Spirit? was rejected by the Holy Spirit? If one who knows the Holy Spirit will no longer sin what happened to Peter's knowledge?

What support do you have that Peter's access to and power in the Holy Spirit was lessened or removed beyond it justifying your current argument that one who knows the Holy Spirit will no longer sin? Where is Peter ever accused of ceasing to follow and obey Christ? He is called incorrect in his manner and attitude, but is he reproached for his relationship to Christ and the Holy Spirit anywhere after Jesus ascension and the day of Pentecost?

We can all sin in ignorance and we are all a work in progress but to knowingly sin is not acceptable.
Christian still perish because of lack of knowledge and get wisdom as it is freely given by the Holy Spirit.
To sin at all is not acceptable. Ignorance is considered, but is not a free wheeling pass.

[95th]

If you think Paul did deliberately sin after knowing Christ then show me some examples in the scriptures?

We can all sin in ignorance and we are all a work in progress but to knowingly sin is not acceptable.

Are you trying to say people can accidentally commit sin?

How? "whoops, i accidentally told a lie, whoops i accidentally thought of something i shouldnt have".
All sin is dilibrate.

[95th]

FredFlanders, do you hold to semi-Pelagianism?

[Obsidian]

Fred, Cornelius didn't have the Holy Spirit because he hadn't yet heard about Jesus. Same most likely goes for the disciples of John. In any case, the early days of the New Covenant took a little time to develop. You may as well point to Peter pre-pentacost and say that he believed without receiving the Spirit. It's silly. Paul wrote Romans in the 50s A.D. and stated that if you do not have the Spirit, you are not saved.

I showed you a clear syllogism which proves that believers have the Holy Spirit. You can't just counteract it by saying "No" and giving a couple inapplicable examples.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, Cornelius didn't have the Holy Spirit because he hadn't yet heard about Jesus. Same most likely goes for the disciples of John. In any case, the early days of the New Covenant took a little time to develop. You may as well point to Peter pre-pentacost and say that he believed without receiving the Spirit. It's silly. Paul wrote Romans in the 50s A.D. and stated that if you do not have the Spirit, you are not saved.

I showed you a clear syllogism which proves that believers have the Holy Spirit. You can't just counteract it by saying "No" and giving a couple inapplicable examples.

O,
As I said not all believers have the Holy Spirit. Many believers get repentance mixed up with recieving the Holy Spirit. Jesus said signs would accompany those that recieve the Holy Spirit. Mark 16 v 16-18.

[FredFlanders]

FredFlanders, do you hold to semi-Pelagianism?

95th,
I do not know what that means, you had better explain?

[RBerman]

I'd like to interview the wife of the man who says he only sins in ignorance.
Sin is transgression of the Word of God. How can you sin if have the Holy Spirit and claim to walk in the Spirit? Only those that try to justify themselves by works rather than be guided by the Holy Spirit will always fall short of the the Word of God because they do not walk by faith.

By faith we are baptised in water at the age of understanding to walk in the newness of life in Christ. Those Christians that refuse baptism and do not walk in newness of life transgress the Word of God, do not they reject Christ and sin putting Jesus to shame by continuing in sin.?
If what you say is true, then you'll have no trouble producing the wife of a man who says he no longer sins, except in ignorance. I look forward to interviewing her. Surely there must be lots of people you know who "walk in the Spirit" by your definition.

[FredFlanders]

Are you trying to say people can accidentally commit sin?

How? "whoops, i accidentally told a lie, whoops i accidentally thought of something i shouldnt have".
All sin is dilibrate.

Sin is transgression of God's Word. Many believers will act on their old natural carnal nature and teachings rather that seek God first via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot lie if you wait for guidance by the Holy Spirit. Either the believer does not have the Holy Spirit or through ignorance and impatience does not wait for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

[FredFlanders]

From Romans 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Note the shift in tenses between verse 12 and 13, from past to present. Paul did continue to sin, and was greatly grieved by it, but found solace in the forgiveness of the father.

WS,
Paul was talking about the nature of his sinful body without Christ but explains in v 24-26 that he has now been delivered from this body of death by "Jesus Christ our Lord" and can now serve the law of God. You cannot make God your Lord and Master and continue to sin. Any so called believer who continues to sin does not know Christ and the victory He had over sin and death.

[FredFlanders]

You're being inconsistent. Previously you stated that Peter did know the Holy Spirit, but chose incorrectly even after that time. He not only knew Christ and the Holy Spirit but had years of direct experience with the one, and directly chosen representation and apointment of the other. Do you claim he rejected the Holy Spirit? was rejected by the Holy Spirit? If one who knows the Holy Spirit will no longer sin what happened to Peter's knowledge?

What support do you have that Peter's access to and power in the Holy Spirit was lessened or removed beyond it justifying your current argument that one who knows the Holy Spirit will no longer sin? Where is Peter ever accused of ceasing to follow and obey Christ? He is called incorrect in his manner and attitude, but is he reproached for his relationship to Christ and the Holy Spirit anywhere after Jesus ascension and the day of Pentecost?


To sin at all is not acceptable. Ignorance is considered, but is not a free wheeling pass.

Peter did not listen to the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not reject us. Peter would have the chance to repent from his actions. However if he remained rejecting his testemony in Christ then he would be counted as one of the foolish virgins.
How can we continue in an incorrect manner or attitude and claim to represent Christ?

[FredFlanders]

If what you say is true, then you'll have no trouble producing the wife of a man who says he no longer sins, except in ignorance. I look forward to interviewing her. Surely there must be lots of people you know who "walk in the Spirit" by your definition.

Correct RB,
I would first look for a Church where the Holy Spirt is with the signs following Mark 16 v 16-20. Then you will be able to search for those the truly are led by the Holy Spirit.

[RBerman]

Correct RB,
I would first look for a Church where the Holy Spirt is with the signs following Mark 16 v 16-20. Then you will be able to search for those the truly are led by the Holy Spirit.
Well, from my POV I know many Christians who are led by the Holy Spirit. I just deny that Christians stop sinning. I was really hoping you could introduce us to someone who purports to be sinless. Perhaps you will be that person for us one day, so I can talk to your wife about it.

[Obsidian]

Paul was talking about the nature of his sinful body without Christ but explains in v 24-26 that he has now been delivered from this body of death by "Jesus Christ our Lord" and can now serve the law of God. You cannot make God your Lord and Master and continue to sin. Any so called believer who continues to sin does not know Christ and the victory He had over sin and death.

Actually, Paul says that he serves God by believing with his "mind." His flesh still gives him some problems.

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

And no, not every believer with the Holy Spirit will produce "signs." That's a ridiculous assertion.

I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

[FredFlanders]

Well, from my POV I know many Christians who are led by the Holy Spirit. I just deny that Christians stop sinning. I was really hoping you could introduce us to someone who purports to be sinless. Perhaps you will be that person for us one day, so I can talk to your wife about it.

RB,
I am sure my wife and many others I know will say that I am not perfect in their eyes and cannot agree on all things. But for myself I judge and examine myself and not let others judge that I walk in the Holy Spirit and not my flesh. It is so easy to walk in the flesh as the enemy will do anything to distract or walk. I am sure that is why we are told to pray without ceasing and be in constant contact with the Holy Spirit and not our old nature.

[FredFlanders]

Actually, Paul says that he serves God by believing with his "mind." His flesh still gives him some problems.

O,
I cannot agree with you here. Now that Paul was empowered by the Holy Spirit he thanked God that he had been delivered from this body of death. He knew that he had some thing greater in him now that overcame his sinful carnal nature and could now walk in the mind of Christ.


And no, not every believer with the Holy Spirit will produce "signs." That's a ridiculous assertion.

All believers can operate the signs by faith.

Paul believed that every believer could speak in tongues by faith but in a meeting Paul was saying prophesy and interpretation was of more importance in a meeting. But let tongues be done 2 or 3 times in meetings and not to speak in tongues all at once because this would seem stupid to those unbelievers or not yet filled with the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by 1 Corinthians 14:5
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
The gifts were operated in the Church meeting for the profit of all so all could learn and operate the gifts.
Originally posted by 1 Corinthians 12 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

[RBerman]

RB,
I am sure my wife and many others I know will say that I am not perfect in their eyes and cannot agree on all things. But for myself I judge and examine myself and not let others judge that I walk in the Holy Spirit and not my flesh. It is so easy to walk in the flesh as the enemy will do anything to distract or walk. I am sure that is why we are told to pray without ceasing and be in constant contact with the Holy Spirit and not our old nature.
I'm trying to understand which of the following best summarizes your view:

1) You are walking in the Spirit, but you still sin.
2) When you are walking in the Spirit, you don't sin, but you're not always walking in the Spirit.
3) You are walking in the Spirit and do not sin, though your wife would disagree.

[Carrikature]

Paul believed that every believer could speak in tongues.

No he didn't. He specifically says in 1 Corinthians 12 that different people are given different gifts. You quoted it yourself, but here it is again.

1 Corinthians 12 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

He very clearly says here that we are all given different gifts. Some have knowledge by the Spirit, others gifts of healing, others prophecy, etc. One person doesn't get all of these. His point in 1 Corinthians 12:4-7 is that though we have different gifts we are all part of the same body. Your body has fingers and toes and eyes, etc. They all have different functions, but they are all a part of your body.

[FredFlanders]

I'm trying to understand which of the following best summarizes your view:

1) You are walking in the Spirit, but you still sin.
2) When you are walking in the Spirit, you don't sin, but you're not always walking in the Spirit.
3) You are walking in the Spirit and do not sin, though your wife would disagree.
#3. I will ask you this RB. Did all believe Jesus did not sin?

[FredFlanders]

No he didn't. He specifically says in 1 Corinthians 12 that different people are given different gifts. You quoted it yourself, but here it is again.

1 Corinthians 12 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

He very clearly says here that we are all given different gifts. Some have knowledge by the Spirit, others gifts of healing, others prophecy, etc. One person doesn't get all of these. His point in 1 Corinthians 12:4-7 is that though we have different gifts we are all part of the same body. Your body has fingers and toes and eyes, etc. They all have different functions, but they are all a part of your body. Believers can opperate all of the gifts by faith. In context with 1 Cor 12 the gifts are opperated by those more accomplished in the gifts for the profit of all or for the parts of the body that lack or for those ignorant on how the gift opperate and to give them confidence or faith to also opperate the gift. All believers can speak in tongues, can lay hands on the sick, have some wisdom, have some knowledge etc

[RBerman]

#3. I will ask you this RB. Did all believe Jesus did not sin?
I cannot parse this sentence. Can you rephrase it?

[Obsidian]

That's a pretty far-fetched reading of 1 Corinthians 12, Fred.

[Carrikature]

Believers can opperate all of the gifts by faith. In context with 1 Cor 12 the gifts are opperated by those more accomplished in the gifts for the profit of all or for the parts of the body that lack or for those ignorant on how the gift opperate and to give them confidence or faith to also opperate the gift. All believers can speak in tongues, can lay hands on the sick, have some wisdom, have some knowledge etc

While I might see how you can (mis)construe that from 1 Cor. 12:7, I think verse 11 pretty clearly puts it in context. Verse 19 also seems to point to different people having different gifts. Your use of the term "more accomplished in the gifts" make it sound like it's something learned or acquired. My level 60 mage is more accomplished in the gifts than your level 10 thief. Oops, I'm letting my nerd show...

[fiddlin-john]

1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The word commit sin, or keep on sinning here refers to being outside the promise, unable to hit the target. It does not imply that one cannot commit a sin, but that one cannot live continuously in sin guiltlessly.


G264
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
Part of Speech: verb

[RBerman]

#3. I will ask you this RB. Did all believe Jesus did not sin?
Never mind; I figured out what you mean. You're saying that Jesus really was sinless, even though other people would have disputed this. You're saying that you too have reached a sinless state, even though your wife would disagree with you on this.

If you won't take your wife's view on this issue seriously, then nothing I say will make any difference. Thanks for your time.

[Obsidian]

Paul demonstrated a somewhat petty attitude and may have sinned in the following passage:

36Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing." 37Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 41He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

Sinful or not, he was being foolish, and he got proven wrong by later events, when Mark turned out to be a strong church leader. Mark wrote a gospel, and in one of the epistles, Paul later asked for Mark to come visit him.


Never mind; I figured out what you mean. You're saying that Jesus really was sinless, even though other people would have disputed this.

That's actually an interesting point. Nonetheless, I'd be rather wary of identifying myself as sinless. I think I generally don't do anything particularly bad, but...who does?

[FredFlanders]

Never mind; I figured out what you mean. You're saying that Jesus really was sinless, even though other people would have disputed this. You're saying that you too have reached a sinless state, even though your wife would disagree with you on this.

If you won't take your wife's view on this issue seriously, then nothing I say will make any difference. Thanks for your time.

RB,
you have figured out what I mean. In context with what I have already written I do not deliberately sin and I will not allow others to put that judgement on me especially those close to me. If I make a mistake through ignorance then I am corrected by the Holy Spirit and correct the situation so it does not happen again and move on. But to allow anyone to judge me as a sinner I do not allow as God also will not judge.
If I or any other believer continued on making the same mistakes against the Word of God then yes this is counted as a sin by God and we will not be held guiltless or sinless before God and will be judged by Him. In this case we are told to speak to our brother or sister and correct them in the spirit of meekness.
Are we on the same page of thinking here?

[FredFlanders]

While I might see how you can (mis)construe that from 1 Cor. 12:7, I think verse 11 pretty clearly puts it in context. Verse 19 also seems to point to different people having different gifts. Your use of the term "more accomplished in the gifts" make it sound like it's something learned or acquired. My level 60 mage is more accomplished in the gifts than your level 10 thief. Oops, I'm letting my nerd show...

C,
1 Cor 12 is written in the context of when the Church meets together. Every on does not operate the gifts at the meeting or there would be utter caos but the gifts are given separately as God wills. Gifts are exactly what they are. They are given to all of us freely by the Holy Spirit. We do not have to earn them as they are free. They are given to all of us when we receive the Holy Spirit. When Jesus said "these signs shall follow them " in Mark 16 the word follow means "to accompany them where ever they go."
In 1 Cor 12 the operation of the gifts was for the profit of all. Some would have a word of wisdom, some would have a word of knowledge, some would lay hand on the sick, two or three would speak in tongues (and not all at once because this would look silly to to the unbeliever).
Although all can operate all the gifts by faith not all do and thus at these meetings the gifts were operated for the benefit of all so others not so accomplished in the gifts could learn and activate the gifts.
This is the direction we follow in the meeting I attend. All believers can operate these gifts in and outside the meetings as called upon when needed. We can all speak in tongues, we can all lay hands on the sick, we all have some knowledge and wisdom.
Paul knew this when he wrote to the Churches. After the Holy Spirit was poured out in the book of Acts the Gospels were written to those filled with the Holy Spirit and operating the gifts.

[FredFlanders]

1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The word commit sin, or keep on sinning here refers to being outside the promise, unable to hit the target. It does not imply that one cannot commit a sin, but that one cannot live continuously in sin guiltlessly.


G264
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
Part of Speech: verb

Thanks FJ,
These definitions put the meaning of sin more into context.

[FredFlanders]

Paul demonstrated a somewhat petty attitude and may have sinned in the following passage:



Sinful or not, he was being foolish, and he got proven wrong by later events, when Mark turned out to be a strong church leader. Mark wrote a gospel, and in one of the epistles, Paul later asked for Mark to come visit him.




That's actually an interesting point. Nonetheless, I'd be rather wary of identifying myself as sinless. I think I generally don't do anything particularly bad, but...who does?

O, I do not see Paul as being foolish or sinful in this account but rather being wise. As it turned out the decision was a benefit for all involved.

My point in identifying myself as sinless is what I see God seeing myself as. The point being is there are many Christians who believe it is ok to continue in the same sin believing that they forgiven continually and thus guiltless. This is incorrect thinking and identifies that they do not know who and what the Holy Spirit is.

[FredFlanders]

That's a pretty far-fetched reading of 1 Corinthians 12, Fred.

O,
I will give more detail if you can be more information on what you disagree with?

[RBerman]

I do not deliberately sin and I will not allow others to put that judgement on me especially those close to me. If I make a mistake through ignorance then I am corrected by the Holy Spirit and correct the situation so it does not happen again and move on. But to allow anyone to judge me as a sinner I do not allow as God also will not judge.
If I or any other believer continued on making the same mistakes against the Word of God then yes this is counted as a sin by God and we will not be held guiltless or sinless before God and will be judged by Him. In this case we are told to speak to our brother or sister and correct them in the spirit of meekness.
Are we on the same page of thinking here?
We are not on the same page, by which I mean that I understand you now but disagree. In my experience, the more mature a Christian is, the more acutely he becomes aware of how sinful he really is, and how much he sins, not only in ignorance, but with knowledge, sometimes knee-jerk and sometimes premeditated. But you've adopted a different meta-narrative through whose lens you assess your life, and if those closest to you cannot dissuade you from it, what hope is there for me to change your view?

[Obsidian]

He specifically states that the Holy Spirit gives one gift to a particular believer, and another gift to another. He does not say, "And if you seek God sufficiently, he will give you the gift of faith, and also give to you the gift of tongues, and also give to you the gift of prophecy...etc."

[fiddlin-john]

Thanks FJ,
These definitions put the meaning of sin more into context.

Your welcome. Also, here is a timely devotional from the Prince of Preachers.

June 2

Morning
“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.”
- Gal_5:17
In every believer’s heart there is a constant struggle between the old nature and the new. The old nature is very active, and loses no opportunity of plying all the weapons of its deadly armoury against newborn grace; while on the other hand, the new nature is ever on the watch to resist and destroy its enemy. Grace within us will employ prayer, and faith, and hope, and love, to cast out the evil; it takes unto it the “whole armour of God,” and wrestles earnestly. These two opposing natures will never cease to struggle so long as we are in this world. The battle of “Christian” with “Apollyon” lasted three hours, but the battle of Christian with himself lasted all the way from the Wicket Gate in the river Jordan. The enemy is so securely entrenched within us that he can never be driven out while we are in this body: but although we are closely beset, and often in sore conflict, we have an Almighty helper, even Jesus, the Captain of our salvation, who is ever with us, and who assures us that we shall eventually come off more than conquerors through him. With such assistance the new-born nature is more than a match for its foes. Are you fighting with the adversary to-day? Are Satan, the world, and the flesh, all against you? Be not discouraged nor dismayed. Fight on! For God himself is with you; Jehovah Nissi is your banner, and Jehovah Rophi is the healer of your wounds. Fear not, you shall overcome, for who can defeat Omnipotence? Fight on, “looking unto Jesus”; and though long and stern be the conflict, sweet will be the victory, and glorious the promised reward.
“From strength to strength go on;
Wrestle, and fight, and pray,
Tread all the powers of darkness down,
And win the well-fought day.”

[FredFlanders]

We are not on the same page, by which I mean that I understand you now but disagree. In my experience, the more mature a Christian is, the more acutely he becomes aware of how sinful he really is, and how much he sins, not only in ignorance, but with knowledge, sometimes knee-jerk and sometimes premeditated. But you've adopted a different meta-narrative through whose lens you assess your life, and if those closest to you cannot dissuade you from it, what hope is there for me to change your view?

RB,
You are not describing believers that have been empowered with the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit. The mature Spirit filled Christian is not only aware of the works of the enemy but also knows he has something within him (the Holy Spirit) that has overcome this sinful nature with in himself and thus does no longer give in to sin.
RB once you know what the Holy Spirit is you will understand this power and what born again truly is but until then you are only being led astray by false religious teaching.
When you receive the Holy Spirit with the signs following (Mark 16 v 16-18) you will understand what I am saying but until then we will still be arguing this point.

[FredFlanders]

He specifically states that the Holy Spirit gives one gift to a particular believer, and another gift to another. He does not say, "And if you seek God sufficiently, he will give you the gift of faith, and also give to you the gift of tongues, and also give to you the gift of prophecy...etc."

O,
I cannot agree as when you receive the Holy Spirit we receive all the gifts. When we understand the context of the scriptures we will see this. As this is an interesting subject and we are getting away from the original thread I will start a new thread.

[fiddlin-john]

Just now realized that your question was never really answered.
Did Paul sin? YES
Is it OK for Christians to sin? NO

[Zero Tolerance]

Never mind; I figured out what you mean. You're saying that Jesus really was sinless, even though other people would have disputed this. You're saying that you too have reached a sinless state, even though your wife would disagree with you on this.

If you won't take your wife's view on this issue seriously, then nothing I say will make any difference. Thanks for your time.

But there is a small detail missing here. Jesus is God. Fled is not, yet he claims that once he received the Holy Spirit, he is as sinless as Jesus.

:ahem:

Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

1 Peter 1:13-15

I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.

Leviticus 11:44

Even as Christians, saved and baptized, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we are commanded to be holy, which is different from "therefore, because you have relieved the Spirit, you ARE holy."

As long as we are in flesh, it is impossible to "not sin." Someone has already touched on this, the fact that Paul differentiated between his flesh and his mind in terms of cleanliness--or holiness, if you will.

[FredFlanders]

Just now realized that your question was never really answered.
Did Paul sin? YES
Is it OK for Christians to sin? NO

FJ,
Paul sinned against God before his redemption denying Jesus. Are you saying Paul continued in sin after being born again?

[Obsidian]

Well I just showed you one possible example in Post #49

[fiddlin-john]

FJ,
Paul sinned against God before his redemption denying Jesus. Are you saying Paul continued in sin after being born again?

Continued in sin, no. Continued to sin, yes. Without a doubt. Although I don't think Obsidian's example is a very good one.

This is where the Spurgeon quote reveals a deep insight. We are not both sinners and saved, but that does not mean that we are incapable of error. However, the "flesh" is not redeemed and continues to rebel , giving every opportunity for us to sin. To insinuate that Paul, or any Christian, once saved never sins again flies in the face of my understanding of the Scripture (which is woefully poor compared to what it should be).

I do agree with your basic premise that committing sin comes out of a turning away the Holy Spirit, and one does not sin while in the Spirit's direction. (Hmm, that sounded deeper than I wanted to go... I need to pontificate this some more...):pray:

[FredFlanders]

Continued in sin, no. Continued to sin, yes. Without a doubt. Although I don't think Obsidian's example is a very good one.

This is where the Spurgeon quote reveals a deep insight. We are not both sinners and saved, but that does not mean that we are incapable of error. However, the "flesh" is not redeemed and continues to rebel , giving every opportunity for us to sin. To insinuate that Paul, or any Christian, once saved never sins again flies in the face of my understanding of the Scripture (which is woefully poor compared to what it should be).

I do agree with your basic premise that committing sin comes out of a turning away the Holy Spirit, and one does not sin while in the Spirit's direction. (Hmm, that sounded deeper than I wanted to go... I need to pontificate this some more...):pray:

FJ,
I think we are on the same page. We are capable of error but quick to rectify the situation if possible (as reminded by the Holy Spirit) so we do not make the same error again and again and again. And our mind is renewed day by day from our old fleshly nature into the new man in Christ.
How does that sound to you?

[FredFlanders]

Well I just showed you one possible example in Post #49

O,
I do not believe that Paul sinned on that occasion but made a wise choice.
Any way does my response to FJ in post 64 sit well with you or not?

[Pilgrim]

Yes he did and not it's not though we are fortunate enough to have God's grace as we try to be better than we are.

[Obsidian]

I do not believe that Paul sinned on that occasion but made a wise choice.

So then Barnabas made a foolish choice? Did he have the Holy Spirit? Imo, Barnabas clearly got proven right by future events.

[FredFlanders]

So then Barnabas made a foolish choice? Did he have the Holy Spirit? Imo, Barnabas clearly got proven right by future events.

Neither Paul or Barnabas was foolish but the choice they made turned out good for all.

[fiddlin-john]

And foolish decisions don't equate to sinful actions. If I walk outside on a day when the weatherman says to expect torrential downpours, and I choose to go without my umbrella since he has been wrong before, when I get wet from the downpour it is not because I have sinned or am lacking the Spirit. But it was foolish.

[Trusty]

H,
Like Paul I sinned before I became Spirit Filled and are now led by the Holy Spirit. How can I claim to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit and remain in sin. My sinful nature was put to death when I decided to follow Christ. If any one is serious about knowing Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit they will need to turn from sin indefinitely and be led by the Spirit as we read in Mark 16 v 16-20.


So, are you going to answer the question or not?

Do or have you sinned, now, ever, since you have been saved?

Also, Mark 16 v16-20 has little currency as inspired scripture around these parts...

Finally, please back-up your 1 Cor 12 assertions with at least one credible scholar that agrees with your interpretation. Even the most crazy charismatics/pentecostal folks I know don't think they have all the gifts...just you and the ones on TV selling the "devil-be-gone" kits and the bottled holy water.

[Obsidian]

I didn't say foolish decisions were necessarily sinful, John, but shouldn't being spirit-filled lead to wisdom and not simply lawfulness?

[fiddlin-john]

I didn't say foolish decisions were necessarily sinful, John, but shouldn't being spirit-filled lead to wisdom and not simply lawfulness?

Yes, absolutely. But that would not predetermine one to making a bad decision. I think in the context of your comment on Paul, lan is right. Though the problem occured, it worked out for the benefit of both parties, and would seemingly be difficult to assign the S word to it.

[FredFlanders]

So, are you going to answer the question or not?

Do or have you sinned, now, ever, since you have been saved?

Also, Mark 16 v16-20 has little currency as inspired scripture around these parts...

Finally, please back-up your 1 Cor 12 assertions with at least one credible scholar that agrees with your interpretation. Even the most crazy charismatics/pentecostal folks I know don't think they have all the gifts...just you and the ones on TV selling the "devil-be-gone" kits and the bottled holy water.

Trusty I answered the question in post 50, here it is again.
In context with what I have already written I do not deliberately sin (now that I follow Jesus) and I will not allow others to put that judgement on me especially those close to me. If I make a mistake through ignorance then I am corrected by the Holy Spirit and correct the situation so it does not happen again and move on. But to allow anyone to judge me as a sinner I do not allow as God also will not judge.
If I or any other believer continued on making the same mistakes again and again against the Word of God then yes this is counted as a sin by God and we will not be held guiltless or sinless before God and will be judged by Him. In this case of a brother or sister in sin we are told to speak to our brother or sister and correct them in the spirit of meekness.
Regarding 1 Cor 12, I am not interested on what other scholars say as I can read the scriptures myself and get the revelation. I have another thread on this subject and please put your thoughts on that thread.
Trusty like your charismatic friends I don't mind speaking to you even though you may disagree.

[timspong]

But to allow anyone to judge me as a sinner I do not allow as God also will not judge.
Are you saying that you are not a sinner? Are you saying God will not judge you?


If I or any other believer continued on making the same mistakes again and again against the Word of God then yes this is counted as a sin by God and we will not be held guiltless or sinless before God and will be judged by Him. In this case of a brother or sister in sin we are told to speak to our brother or sister and correct them in the spirit of meekness.

I think you grossly underestimate the nature of sin. Only Christ is without sin. Your best righteousness is counted as nothing more than filthy rags and you best prayer ever probably had enough sin in it to condemn you to hell for eternity if it were not for the finished work of Christ. Unless you realize that you are a sinner in desperate need of mercy and grace, the substitutionary atonement of Christ is no use to you.


Regarding 1 Cor 12, I am not interested on what other scholars say as I can read the scriptures myself and get the revelation.

You are a member of the body of Christ and should be interested in what your brethren have to say even if you don't agree. However, if you see yourself as sinless and a possessor of all the gifts (from another thread) then I guess you don't need anyone, even Christ himself.

[FredFlanders]

Are you saying that you are not a sinner? Are you saying God will not judge you?



I think you grossly underestimate the nature of sin. Only Christ is without sin. Your best righteousness is counted as nothing more than filthy rags and you best prayer ever probably had enough sin in it to condemn you to hell for eternity if it were not for the finished work of Christ. Unless you realize that you are a sinner in desperate need of mercy and grace, the substitutionary atonement of Christ is no use to you.



You are a member of the body of Christ and should be interested in what your brethren have to say even if you don't agree. However, if you see yourself as sinless and a possessor of all the gifts (from another thread) then I guess you don't need anyone, even Christ himself.
T,
Have a read of your Bible. At the moment you are still trying to repent and you will go through that for the rest of your life until you look at the full Gospel message. Find a Church that ministers the full message of Christ and get yourself filled with the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 11
25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.



Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[timspong]

T,
Have a read of your Bible. At the moment you are still trying to repent and you will go through that for the rest of your life until you look at the full Gospel message. Find a Church that ministers the full message of Christ and get yourself filled with the Holy Spirit..

We never stop repenting as we never stop maturing and repentance is part of the maturing process. The sanctification process goes on continually as we are never able to reach perfection in the flesh. We have a righteous status before God but that has nothing to do with our maturity in the flesh, however, our desire is to achieve in the flesh what we have already achieved forensically by the substitutionary atonement of Christ. This of course is impossible to achieve while we are in our unredeemed flesh. Not until the resurrection will our flesh be finally free from sin and we are able to achieve what you are erroneously postulating as possible now.

Entire sanctification is not possible in this corrupt flesh! that is one of the many serious errors associated with the "word of faith" movement.

[FredFlanders]

We never stop repenting as we never stop maturing and repentance is part of the maturing process. The sanctification process goes on continually as we are never able to reach perfection in the flesh. We have a righteous status before God but that has nothing to do with our maturity in the flesh, however, our desire is to achieve in the flesh what we have already achieved forensically by the substitutionary atonement of Christ. This of course is impossible to achieve while we are in our unredeemed flesh. Not until the resurrection will our flesh be finally free from sin and we are able to achieve what you are erroneously postulating as possible now.

Entire sanctification is not possible in this corrupt flesh! that is one of the many serious errors associated with the "word of faith" movement.

T,
I agree with your first sentence. So why not look into a Church that operates all the gifts and find out some more there.
Your next statement I cannot agree with. When Christ comes onto you (Holy Spirit) we have some thing in us greater than in the world and enables us to overcome sin. We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

[timspong]

T,
I agree with your first sentence. So why not look into a Church that operates all the gifts and find out some more there.
Your next statement I cannot agree with. When Christ comes onto you (Holy Spirit) we have some thing in us greater than in the world and enables us to overcome sin. We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

So you think perfection is attainable while we are in this corrupt flesh?

(BTW. I am not talking about forensic justification, but actual entire sanctification of the flesh). Would that not mean we would live forever in this flesh???

[FredFlanders]

So you think perfection is attainable while we are in this corrupt flesh?

(BTW. I am not talking about forensic justification, but actual entire sanctification of the flesh). Would that not mean we would live forever in this flesh??? Satan is allways trying to decieve us and will try and trip us up if he can. When we are aware of his deceipt in us we can cast him out by the Holy Spirit with in a believer and no longer continue in that deceipt.

[timspong]

Satan is allways trying to decieve us and will try and trip us up if he can. When we are aware of his deceipt in us we can cast him out by the Holy Spirit with in a believer and no longer continue in that deceipt.

Firstly satan is not omnipresent and therefore cannot dwell within us like the Holy Spirit. Secondly, our carnal desires are a direct result of our corrupt flesh and cannot be completely replaced with Godly desire until our flesh has been fully redeemed by resurrection. Satans damage is already done to your body and he has moved on to other insidious schemes (like formulating the prosperity gospel for instance). There is nothing to cast out of your flesh! it is you that is corrupt and you can't cast yourself out!!!!

We can however, strive towards perfection in the flesh as the Holy Spirit facilitates the rebuilding of our desires towards Holy will, but you certainly cannot fully attain perfection this side of glory.

Most charismatics nowadays are unfortunate victim of woefully bad teaching; a predicament that has become 'all too familiar' in the wake of this insidious gospel counterfeit called "the word of faith" movement. It is such as shame as even a slight sober investigation into biblical theology will easily reveal the errors for what they are.

If you take away anything from this post take this:

Our conscience and desire mechanisms are influenced by 3 things:

Our flesh (i.e. ourselves)
The Holy Spirit
Spiritual Powers of Darkness


I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the most influential of them all is our flesh. Those that presume to ascribe carnal desires to the Holy Sprit must be very careful.

That is why we have scripture and Godly men who have gone before us to help develop a level of discernment.

The word of faith movement is run by puffed up preachers that are proud of their superior spirituality and go around falsely proclaiming "the will of god" from their flesh. It is no wonder they have got so much wrong. You only have to switch on TBN to see the complete farcical display of fleshly self reverence and pride, where the bible is no longer an objective authority being superseded at every opportunity by personal revelation.

Their indoctrination is so complete that thy refuse to listen to orthodox teaching and clear exegetical reasoning. Their itching ears preferring to be indoctrinated by the delicious lies that tickle the flesh with sensuous myths.

To be frank, I am really appalled by you woeful display of eisegesis and pray to God that you do not influence any poor unsuspecting babes in the faith that do not have a level of maturity that can see past your deceived dogmatic assertions.

I am also sure that your puffed up pride will not allow you to humbly admit error and I am sure you will continue to answer posts ad nauseam, ad infinitum no matter how we soundly you are refuted.

I am not a fundamentalist anti-charismatic crusader, I am actually a charismatic evangelical myself that is disgusted with the state of teaching within the pentecostal/charismatic tradition. It pains my soul to think that people can be so badly deceived despite being surrounded by the best information systems the world has every known.

[Sparko]

RB,
you have figured out what I mean. In context with what I have already written I do not deliberately sin and I will not allow others to put that judgement on me especially those close to me. If I make a mistake through ignorance then I am corrected by the Holy Spirit and correct the situation so it does not happen again and move on. But to allow anyone to judge me as a sinner I do not allow as God also will not judge.
If I or any other believer continued on making the same mistakes against the Word of God then yes this is counted as a sin by God and we will not be held guiltless or sinless before God and will be judged by Him. In this case we are told to speak to our brother or sister and correct them in the spirit of meekness.
Are we on the same page of thinking here?

1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

[FredFlanders]

1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Sparco,
I did sin before I came to the Lord. Now that I follow the Lord sin has been buried and I live my new life with Christ. You will never understand that until you get your self filled with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[FredFlanders]

Firstly satan is not omnipresent and therefore cannot dwell within us like the Holy Spirit. Secondly, our carnal desires are a direct result of our corrupt flesh and cannot be completely replaced with Godly desire until our flesh has been fully redeemed by resurrection. Satans damage is already done to your body and he has moved on to other insidious schemes (like formulating the prosperity gospel for instance). There is nothing to cast out of your flesh! it is you that is corrupt and you can't cast yourself out!!!!

We can however, strive towards perfection in the flesh as the Holy Spirit facilitates the rebuilding of our desires towards Holy will, but you certainly cannot fully attain perfection this side of glory.

Most charismatics nowadays are unfortunate victim of woefully bad teaching; a predicament that has become 'all too familiar' in the wake of this insidious gospel counterfeit called "the word of faith" movement. It is such as shame as even a slight sober investigation into biblical theology will easily reveal the errors for what they are.

If you take away anything from this post take this:

Our conscience and desire mechanisms are influenced by 3 things:

Our flesh (i.e. ourselves)
The Holy Spirit
Spiritual Powers of Darkness


I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the most influential of them all is our flesh. Those that presume to ascribe carnal desires to the Holy Sprit must be very careful.

That is why we have scripture and Godly men who have gone before us to help develop a level of discernment.

The word of faith movement is run by puffed up preachers that are proud of their superior spirituality and go around falsely proclaiming "the will of god" from their flesh. It is no wonder they have got so much wrong. You only have to switch on TBN to see the complete farcical display of fleshly self reverence and pride, where the bible is no longer an objective authority being superseded at every opportunity by personal revelation.

Their indoctrination is so complete that thy refuse to listen to orthodox teaching and clear exegetical reasoning. Their itching ears preferring to be indoctrinated by the delicious lies that tickle the flesh with sensuous myths.

To be frank, I am really appalled by you woeful display of eisegesis and pray to God that you do not influence any poor unsuspecting babes in the faith that do not have a level of maturity that can see past your deceived dogmatic assertions.

I am also sure that your puffed up pride will not allow you to humbly admit error and I am sure you will continue to answer posts ad nauseam, ad infinitum no matter how we soundly you are refuted.

I am not a fundamentalist anti-charismatic crusader, I am actually a charismatic evangelical myself that is disgusted with the state of teaching within the pentecostal/charismatic tradition. It pains my soul to think that people can be so badly deceived despite being surrounded by the best information systems the world has every known.
T,
you sound very bitter and twisted and you are fighting the flesh instead of spiritual wickedness. If you had the Holy Spirit in you then you would know you had the power to overcome the sin. How can some one who claims to follow Christ continue in sin unless they have not put on their full armour of God because of their lack of knowledge in the word. We have victory over the enemy.

[timspong]

T,
you sound very bitter and twisted and you are fighting the flesh instead of spiritual wickedness. If you had the Holy Spirit in you then you would know you had the power to overcome the sin. How can some one who claims to follow Christ continue in sin unless they have not put on their full armour of God because of their lack of knowledge in the word. We have victory over the enemy.

You completely underestimate sin and your own depravity. You are a sinner!!! If you think you are not, then Christ is not in you! For example you exhibit enough pride, arrogance, hypocrisy in your post above to condemn you to hell for eternity if it were not for the grace of Christ. The same goes for this reply.

We cannot attain perfection in this mortal flesh!!! it is impossible! we can only strive towards it, like a moth trying to fly to the sun.

So please get over yourself, grow up and open your eyes man! Forget all that garbage your church is forcing down your throat. Take off those glasses of deceit and read the bible soberly.

One of the very first things that becomes apparent when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone is the realization of ones own depravity and our dire need for a savour. If you are deluded into thinking you are somehow not a sinner then there is something seriously wrong with your faith!!!

This "word of faith" movement is utter spiritual wickedness of the worst kind. It is a counterfeit of the real thing full of people who are in danger of perishing because they refuse to love the truth as they wander off into myths; following prideful men who are puffed up with their on conceit while strutting around on stages vomiting up damnable lies. I wouldn't say I was twisted but rather very passionate about this particular subject that I am utterly convicted of. I came out of a "word of faith" church and used to hold the same view as you. At best; these insidious gatherings are nothing more than commercialized therapeutic deism, at worst; delusional euphoric occultism.

You are in serious need of a paradigm shift. I don't know what pill they made you swallow, but take the red pill already and wake up from this delusion.

[fiddlin-john]

well, Flanders did change his info to Unorthodox. So, that pretty much explains it.

[Sparko]

Sparco,
I did sin before I came to the Lord. Now that I follow the Lord sin has been buried and I live my new life with Christ. You will never understand that until you get your self filled with the Holy Spirit.

Fred, please learn how to spell my name.

I think you are just playing a semantic game with the word "sin"

Are you telling me that you never tell a lie any more? not once since you became a Christian? That you have never done anything that before you were saved would be called a "sin"?

Or are you saying that you still do those same things, like telling a lie here and there, getting angry at people for no reason, etc, but that they are just now called "mistakes" instead of "sin"?

[FredFlanders]

You completely underestimate sin and your own depravity. You are a sinner!!! If you think you are not, then Christ is not in you! For example you exhibit enough pride, arrogance, hypocrisy in your post above to condemn you to hell for eternity if it were not for the grace of Christ. The same goes for this reply.

We cannot attain perfection in this mortal flesh!!! it is impossible! we can only strive towards it, like a moth trying to fly to the sun.

So please get over yourself, grow up and open your eyes man! Forget all that garbage your church is forcing down your throat. Take off those glasses of deceit and read the bible soberly.

One of the very first things that becomes apparent when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone is the realization of ones own depravity and our dire need for a savour. If you are deluded into thinking you are somehow not a sinner then there is something seriously wrong with your faith!!!

This "word of faith" movement is utter spiritual wickedness of the worst kind. It is a counterfeit of the real thing full of people who are in danger of perishing because they refuse to love the truth as they wander off into myths; following prideful men who are puffed up with their on conceit while strutting around on stages vomiting up damnable lies. I wouldn't say I was twisted but rather very passionate about this particular subject that I am utterly convicted of. I came out of a "word of faith" church and used to hold the same view as you. At best; these insidious gatherings are nothing more than commercialized therapeutic deism, at worst; delusional euphoric occultism.

You are in serious need of a paradigm shift. I don't know what pill they made you swallow, but take the red pill already and wake up from this delusion.T, nothing wrong with laying hands on the sick for healing or casting out demons in the name of Jesus ot to recieve the Holy Spirit. Have you ever read your Bible? I can see you do not have faith in the word of God. That is why you the need the Holy Spirit so you can see. At the moment you are following Mr Magoo and not the Word of God.

[FredFlanders]

well, Flanders did change his info to Unorthodox. So, that pretty much explains it.FJ,
I was politely asked to do so because many cannot handle the Truth. Rather than checking their Bible’s they follow the deceiver and their false religions.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, please learn how to spell my name.

I think you are just playing a semantic game with the word "sin"

Are you telling me that you never tell a lie any more? not once since you became a Christian? That you have never done anything that before you were saved would be called a "sin"?

Or are you saying that you still do those same things, like telling a lie here and there, getting angry at people for no reason, etc, but that they are just now called "mistakes" instead of "sin"?SparKo,
If I miss the mark for what ever reason I correct it and not do it again. Yes I have told a lie to cover up some thing stupid I had done, or ignorantly transgressed the Word of God. Then I am prompted by the Holy Spirit to correct it and not do it again. It is only by the Holy Spirit I have the strength of God to correct the situation. Many so called believers who do not understand what the Holy Spirit is and do not have it do not have that ability and cast out that sin (spirit) and will continue in that sin continually. And believing that God will keep forgiving and they will be saved. This is a delusion. First they must get the Holy Spirit and then they will have the ability by the power of God to cast out sin forever.

[Sparko]

SparKo,
If I miss the mark for what ever reason I correct it and not do it again. Yes I have told a lie to cover up some thing stupid I had done, or ignorantly transgressed the Word of God. Then I am prompted by the Holy Spirit to correct it and not do it again. It is only by the Holy Spirit I have the strength of God to correct the situation. Many so called believers who do not understand what the Holy Spirit is and do not have it do not have that ability and cast out that sin (spirit) and will continue in that sin continually. And believing that God will keep forgiving and they will be saved. This is a delusion. First they must get the Holy Spirit and then they will have the ability by the power of God to cast out sin forever.

if you still tell the occasional lie, then you still sin. You are forgiven for it but you still sin. and I can bet that you will do so again. Lying is one of those things us sinners have a particularly hard time with.

[FredFlanders]

if you still tell the occasional lie, then you still sin. You are forgiven for it but you still sin. and I can bet that you will do so again. Lying is one of those things us sinners have a particularly hard time with.I am forgiven if I repent and not continue lying as I have something greater in me (the Holy Spirit) to cast out the sin (demon).
Remember sin is transgression of God’s word. Not to be baptised in water or not get filled with the Holy Spirit and conform to the image of Christ is a sin and you will be counted with the five foolish virgins.

[timspong]

T, nothing wrong with laying hands on the sick for healing or casting out demons in the name of Jesus ot to recieve the Holy Spirit.
agreed

Have you ever read your Bible?
yes I make a point of reading the OT at least once a year just to make sure I don't forget or miss anything. As far as the NT I am on my 11th reading of this year so far. Boastful I know, but I am a sinner after all.

I can see you do not have faith in the word of God. wrong. You can only see that I have no faith in your eisegesis and gross misinterpretation of the word. Your church is obviously equally deceived. Heresy is not plucked from thin air, they all come from a misreading of the bible where the whole picture is ignored or where context is abused. Every heresy throughout the entire history of the church has a plethora of proof texts. Proof texts are meaningless. Even Satan himself abused scripture and gave "proof texts" to temp Jesus in the desert. Your presuppositions and doctrine is blocking your mind from a correct understanding of truth.

That is why you the need the Holy Spirit so you can see. agreed the Holy Spirit is definitely responsible for any ability I have to perceive truth.


At the moment you are following Mr Magoo and not the Word of God.
touche. What a brilliant come back, that certainly put me in my place! You really must be perfect after all.:ahem:

[FredFlanders]

agreed


yes I make a point of reading the OT at least once a year just to make sure I don't forget or miss anything. As far as the NT I am on my 11th reading of this year so far. Boastful I know, but I am a sinner after all.

wrong. You can only see that I have no faith in your eisegesis and gross misinterpretation of the word. Your church is obviously equally deceived. Heresy is not plucked from thin air, they all come from a misreading of the bible where the whole picture is ignored or where context is abused. Every heresy throughout the entire history of the church has a plethora of proof texts. Proof texts are meaningless. Even Satan himself abused scripture and gave "proof texts" to temp Jesus in the desert. Your presuppositions and doctrine is blocking your mind from a correct understanding of truth.

agreed the Holy Spirit is definitely responsible for any ability I have to perceive truth.


touche. What a brilliant come back, that certainly put me in my place! You really must be perfect after all.:ahem:T, we can agree on some things. Clearly what scriptures do you not agree with me on.

[Sparko]

I am forgiven if I repent and not continue lying as I have something greater in me (the Holy Spirit) to cast out the sin (demon).
Remember sin is transgression of God’s word. Not to be baptised in water or not get filled with the Holy Spirit and conform to the image of Christ is a sin and you will be counted with the five foolish virgins.

but you said earlier that Christians don't sin. and you admit that you do lie, and so Christians do sin, don't they?

[FredFlanders]

but you said earlier that Christians don't sin. and you admit that you do lie, and so Christians do sin, don't they?

SparKo,
I said no such thing. This is what I have said on this post below.
Rather than trying to be my accuser continually, how about giving me your interpretation of the scriptures listed below.

We can all sin in ignorance and we are all a work in progress but to knowingly sin is not acceptable.

Sin is transgression of God's Word. Many believers will act on their old natural carnal nature and teachings rather that seek God first via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot lie if you wait for guidance by the Holy Spirit. Either the believer does not have the Holy Spirit or through ignorance and impatience does not wait for the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Peter did not listen to the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not reject us. Peter would have the chance to repent from his actions. However if he remained rejecting his testemony in Christ then he would be counted as one of the foolish virgins.

I am sure my wife and many others I know will say that I am not perfect in their eyes and cannot agree on all things. But for myself I judge and examine myself and not let others judge that I walk in the Holy Spirit and not my flesh. It is so easy to walk in the flesh as the enemy will do anything to distract or walk. I am sure that is why we are told to pray without ceasing and be in constant contact with the Holy Spirit and not our old nature.

In context with what I have already written I do not deliberately sin and I will not allow others to put that judgement on me especially those close to me. If I make a mistake through ignorance then I am corrected by the Holy Spirit and correct the situation so it does not happen again and move on. But to allow anyone to judge me as a sinner I do not allow as God also will not judge.
If I or any other believer continued on making the same mistakes against the Word of God then yes this is counted as a sin by God and we will not be held guiltless or sinless before God and will be judged by Him. In this case we are told to speak to our brother or sister and correct them in the spirit of meekness.

We are capable of error but quick to rectify the situation if possible (as reminded by the Holy Spirit) so we do not make the same error again and again and again. And our mind is renewed day by day from our old fleshly nature into the new man in Christ. Satan is always trying to deceive us and will try and trip us up if he can. When we are aware of his deceit in us we can cast him out by the Holy Spirit with in a believer and no longer continue in that deceit.

,If I miss the mark for whatever reason I correct it and not do it again. Yes I have told a lie to cover up something stupid I had done, or ignorantly transgressed the Word of God. Then I am prompted by the Holy Spirit to correct it and not do it again. It is only by the Holy Spirit I have the strength of God to correct the situation. Many so called believers who do not understand what the Holy Spirit is and do not have it do not have that ability and cast out that sin (spirit) and will continue in that sin continually. And believing that God will keep forgiving and they will be saved. This is a delusion. First they must get the Holy Spirit and then they will have the ability by the power of God to cast out sin forever.

Romans 6 v 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Col 2 v 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.


Heb 10 v 14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[Sparko]

how do you accidentally tell a lie, flanders? SIN is intentional.

[FredFlanders]

how do you accidentally tell a lie, flanders? SIN is intentional.

SparKo,
Whether a lie or a sin is intentional or not does not matter. To lie is stupid and the Holy Spirit corrects us on such matters. We repent and not do the sin time and time again. This is foreign to you because you have not yet received the Holy Spirit to understand what I am saying nor will you understand the scriptures below. You are in transgression of God’s word because you continue not to repent, follow what Jesus said about being baptised in water and then the Holy Spirit let alone being able to repent from the rest of your sins..

Romans 6 v 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no
means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Col 2 v 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.


Heb 10 v 14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[Obsidian]

Fred, did Paul fail to give the Corinthians the Holy Spirit, or did they not actually sin the way the text seems to suggest they did?

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

And did the hypothetical Christian in this passage sin?

[Sparko]

SparKo,
Whether a lie or a sin is intentional or not does not matter. To lie is stupid and the Holy Spirit corrects us on such matters. We repent and not do the sin time and time again. This is foreign to you because you have not yet received the Holy Spirit to understand what I am saying nor will you understand the scriptures below. You are in transgression of God’s word because you continue not to repent, follow what Jesus said about being baptised in water and then the Holy Spirit let alone being able to repent from the rest of your sins..

Romans 6 v 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no
means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Col 2 v 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.


Heb 10 v 14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Fred, you first claim that once you do a sin, then you don't do it again. and you claim that it only is a sin if it is intentional.

Are you claiming that you only told one lie since you've become a Christian and never ever told another one? And that you won't ever tell a lie again? ever?

and dont try to say you lie unintentionally because that is impossible.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, did Paul fail to give the Corinthians the Holy Spirit, or did they not actually sin the way the text seems to suggest they did?



And did the hypothetical Christian in this passage sin?

O,
The Corinthians had just been filled with the Holy Spirit and empowerment. They knew they had this empowerment within them but knew little else about the Lord as they were Gentiles. They still behaved much in their old sinful ways and there was still a lot of division between them. Paul’s letters to them were to help them understand what they have just received and how to use it. Paul’s letters showed them how to operate the spiritual gifts, work together, walk in love and turn from their sinful nature. Anyone not committed to following the Lord and remaining in their old sinful nature Paul said they were to be ex communicated from the Church until true repentance sought and they put God first.

1 Cor 5 v 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Your scriptures on 1 Cor 3 is not to do with the type of sins we just covered above but are to do with following the Word of God according to scripture (foundation Christ has laid). As I have said before to enter into the Kingdom of God, Jesus told us to Step 1- Repent (turn from sin), Step 2- Be Baptised in Water Step,-3 Be Filled with the Holy Spirit. These are all steps into the Kingdom of God. Once into the Kingdom of God, we are led by the Holy Spirit and going from faith to faith. If you are laying any other foundation other than the Word of God you will suffer loss. Those who refuse step 1,2 & 3 have not yet even entered into the Kingdom of God and will not be at the resurrection of the Saints. Once in the Kingdom we still need to follow the Word of God or we will suffer loss. The foundations we build must be according to the Word of God.

1 Cor 3 v 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you first claim that once you do a sin, then you don't do it again. and you claim that it only is a sin if it is intentional.

Are you claiming that you only told one lie since you've become a Christian and never ever told another one? And that you won't ever tell a lie again? ever?

and dont try to say you lie unintentionally because that is impossible.

SparKo,

If you have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is continually teaching us and renewing our old nature, in particular if you are new convert. Once the Holy Spirit corrects us we do not go back and do what He has corrected us on or given us knowledge of the Truth.

SparKo, what I am saying to you will be foreign to you until you get filled with the Holy Spirit.

Heb 10 v 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

John 16 v 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[Obsidian]

But I thought your whole argument was that Christians cannot sin once they receive the Holy Spirit, or perhaps that they can't sin very often. Now you're telling me Christians can build other foundations. That doesn't sound very sinless.

[Sparko]

SparKo,

If you have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is continually teaching us and renewing our old nature, in particular if you are new convert. Once the Holy Spirit corrects us we do not go back and do what He has corrected us on or given us knowledge of the Truth.

SparKo, what I am saying to you will be foreign to you until you get filled with the Holy Spirit.

Heb 10 v 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

John 16 v 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

stop dodging.

Are you claiming that you only told one lie since you've become a Christian and never ever told another one? And that you won't ever tell a lie again? ever?

[FredFlanders]

But I thought your whole argument was that Christians cannot sin once they receive the Holy Spirit, or perhaps that they can't sin very often. Now you're telling me Christians can build other foundations. That doesn't sound very sinless.
O,

Our minds are being renewed day by day as the Holy Spirit teaches us to walk in the Lord. If we make a mistake/sin the Holy Spirit corrects us and we move on. The mistake/sin is not counted against us at judgement time if we correct ourselves. If we continue to make the same mistake/sin time and time again and go against what the Holy Spirit is telling us we will be held accountable and judged. I have never said that Christians cannot sin.

Heb 10 v 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Christians can easily build other foundations and this is what Paul was warning the Corinthians about in 1 Cor 3. Some were starting to build their foundations on Apollos and Paul because they baptised them in water and with the Holy Spirit believing that they gave them this power. Paul was saying that it is not their foundation but Christ’s. Paul did not want them to follow Man but Christ because Man can lay other foundations that can lead believers astray. We see this in many Religious Denominations today as they are building other foundations other than what Christ laid and being led astray.
This is my concern about you and many others responding to my threads. O. What is the foundation that led you to Christ and be empowered by the Holy Spirit? Or have you believed another foundation that was not Christs and never received any empowerment or Holy Spirit? Even those with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit can be led astray by other foundations of Man and be led astray. It is important what I tell you or any other person comes from the Gospel of Christ.

[FredFlanders]

stop dodging.

Are you claiming that you only told one lie since you've become a Christian and never ever told another one? And that you won't ever tell a lie again? ever?

Sparko, I will say to you what Paul said to the Corinthians. You have been given many scriptures about sin. Your choice to believe the Word of God or not.

1 Cor 3 But [as for me personally] it matters very little to me that I should be put on trial by you [on this point], and that you or any other human tribunal should investigate and question and cross-question me. I do not even put myself on trial and judge myself.
4I am not conscious of anything against myself, and I feel blameless; but I am not vindicated and acquitted before God on that account. It is the Lord [Himself] Who examines and judges me.
5So do not make any hasty or premature judgments before the time when the Lord comes [again], for He will both bring to light the secret things that are [now hidden] in darkness and disclose and expose the [secret] aims (motives and purposes) of hearts. Then every man will receive his [due] commendation from God.

[Obsidian]

If we make a mistake/sin the Holy Spirit corrects us and we move on. The mistake/sin is not counted against us at judgement time if we correct ourselves. If we continue to make the same mistake/sin time and time again and go against what the Holy Spirit is telling us we will be held accountable and judged.

Well there's a contradiction right there. Initially, you suggested that we don't make mistakes, or perhaps don't make mistakes intentionally and repeatedly. Now you're saying that some of us will keep on making mistakes, and that if we keep on making mistakes then we will be "judged."

By "judged," do you mean damned eternally? Because the passage I cited specifically says that the man who builds poorly on the foundation of Christ will still be "saved," as though through fire.

[Sparko]

Flanders, I am forgiven of all my sins. Past, present and future. all of them are covered by the blood of Jesus. I feel sorry for you if you think otherwise.

[fiddlin-john]

Flanders, care to comment on this verse (if you haven't already):
Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

[The Curtmudgeon]

stop dodging.

Are you claiming that you only told one lie since you've become a Christian and never ever told another one? And that you won't ever tell a lie again? ever?

Sparko, I will say to you what Paul said to the Corinthians. You have been given many scriptures about sin. Your choice to believe the Word of God or not.

1 Cor 3 But [as for me personally] it matters very little to me that I should be put on trial by you [on this point], and that you or any other human tribunal should investigate and question and cross-question me. I do not even put myself on trial and judge myself.
4I am not conscious of anything against myself, and I feel blameless; but I am not vindicated and acquitted before God on that account. It is the Lord [Himself] Who examines and judges me.
5So do not make any hasty or premature judgments before the time when the Lord comes [again], for He will both bring to light the secret things that are [now hidden] in darkness and disclose and expose the [secret] aims (motives and purposes) of hearts. Then every man will receive his [due] commendation from God.

To paraphrase, "You don't really expect me to give a straight answer to a simple question, do you?"

The (:ahem:) Curtmudgeon

[barnasha]

Flanders, I am forgiven of all my sins. Past, present and future. all of them are covered by the blood of Jesus. I feel sorry for you if you think otherwise.

Why would God forgive someone who asserts himself to be forgiven regardless of his future actions? It would be wise to be more prudent rather than declaring one's self as 'forgiven'.

Those who constantly fear they won't be forgiven are the ones most worthy of forgiveness.

The ones who assert it for themselves are the least worthy.

We must all acknowledge that it is not our own forgiveness of ourselves we seek. Anyone can forgive himself.

[Sparko]

Why would God forgive someone who asserts himself to be forgiven regardless of his future actions? It would be wise to be more prudent rather than declaring one's self as 'forgiven'.

Those who constantly fear they won't be forgiven are the ones most worthy of forgiveness.

The ones who assert it for themselves are the least worthy.

We must all acknowledge that it is now our own forgiveness of ourselves we seek. Anyone can forgive himself.

Barnasha, all of my sins were future to Jesus dying on the cross. His sacrifice was for the forgiveness of all sins of those who believe in him. Those that believe in him HAVE eternal life.

John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=36&version=31&context=verse)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=5&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

[Obsidian]

Those who constantly fear they won't be forgiven are the ones most worthy of forgiveness.

That's absolutely untrue. I can't be sure about how God judges faith, but I actually fear for the souls of those who lack assurance of their own forgiveness.

If Jesus says to you, "I died for your sins and hereby give you life," and if you hear that and think it sounds good but nonetheless aren't sure you believe it, then what does that say about your faith? If you wonder, "Has he really given me life?," how much faith do you really have?

[barnasha]

Barnasha, all of my sins were future to Jesus dying on the cross. His sacrifice was for the forgiveness of all sins of those who believe in him. Those that believe in him HAVE eternal life.


The death of Jesus itself does not prevent you from doing harm to others. You must refuse to do harm to them yourself. Of course the authors of the books of the bible meant this, but you probably overlooked it when using their rhetoric as your own. No harm in that.

[Sparko]

The death of Jesus itself does not prevent you from doing harm to others. You must refuse to do harm to them yourself. Of course the authors of the books of the bible meant this, but you probably overlooked it when using their rhetoric as your own. No harm in that.

I quoted Jesus' own words to you, barney. The fact that you don't believe is your problem, not mine. Jesus says I am forgiven and I have eternal life. Don't you wish you had that assurance? All it takes is some trust and your willingness to submit to Jesus as your Lord and Savior.


Romans 10
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[FredFlanders]

Well there's a contradiction right there. Initially, you suggested that we don't make mistakes, or perhaps don't make mistakes intentionally and repeatedly. Now you're saying that some of us will keep on making mistakes, and that if we keep on making mistakes then we will be "judged."

By "judged," do you mean damned eternally? Because the passage I cited specifically says that the man who builds poorly on the foundation of Christ will still be "saved," as though through fire.

O,
You are not reading what I have written correctly. Take some time to dwell on what I have said. I have said that if we continue to make the SAME sin/mistake over and over again and not repent and be corrected by the Holy Spirit, you will be judged. Your sins will be brought to light, some sins you will suffer some loss and for some sins you will be damned eternally.

1 Cor 3 v 15But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.(B) 16Do you not discern and understand that you [the whole church at Corinth] are God's temple (His sanctuary), and that God's Spirit has His permanent dwelling in you [to be at home in you, [c]collectively as a church and also individually]?
17If anyone [d]does hurt to God's temple or corrupts it [[e]with false doctrines] or destroys it, God will [f]do hurt to him and bring him to the corruption of death and destroy him. For the temple of God is holy (sacred to Him) and that [temple] you [[g]the believing church and its individual believers] are.

Heb 10 v 14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[FredFlanders]

Flanders, I am forgiven of all my sins. Past, present and future. all of them are covered by the blood of Jesus. I feel sorry for you if you think otherwise.

SparKo,
The Blood of Jesus will only cover those that believe and follow the FULL Gospel of Christ Jesus, growing and conforming into the image of Christ Jesus. At the moment you are pulling out scriptures that only agree with your carnal thinking and ignoring the rest. You will not repent from your religious deceit so you are blinded by the Lord. Do you understand the scriptures below?
1 Cor 14 v 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[FredFlanders]

Flanders, care to comment on this verse (if you haven't already):
Php 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.FJ,
When Paul said that he was “not already perfect,” he was referring that he had not yet obtained his “new incorruptible Spiritual Body” that he will receive after his resurrection from the dead. Paul states in previous verses that he has given every part of Himself for Christ and is looking forward to his resurrection.

[FredFlanders]

To paraphrase, "You don't really expect me to give a straight answer to a simple question, do you?"

The (:ahem:) Curtmudgeon

C,
If Sparko cannot believe Paul or other other scriptures of the Gospel of Christ then how do I expect him to believe me?

[Obsidian]

Basically, you ignored my point completely, Flanders. 1 Corinthians 3 explicitly says that the bad Christian is still "saved." I want your response. Don't just post other verses and have me explain those to you also. I want to know how you explain 1 Corinthians 3. Do you believe the Bible is inerrant?

[timspong]

flanders,

Can you please explain justification from your perspective.

thanks

[Sparko]

SparKo,
The Blood of Jesus will only cover those that believe and follow the FULL Gospel of Christ Jesus, growing and conforming into the image of Christ Jesus. At the moment you are pulling out scriptures that only agree with your carnal thinking and ignoring the rest. You will not repent from your religious deceit so you are blinded by the Lord. Do you understand the scriptures below?
1 Cor 14 v 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

You are adding to the gospel, flanders. When we believe we are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are saved. There is no condition in the gospel that you have to manefest all the gifts of the holy spirit before you are saved. That is NOT said anywhere in the bible. You are creating another gospel and you know what Paul said about those who do that, right?

Galatians 1:6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

[eudyptes]

SparKo,
The Blood of Jesus will only cover those that believe and follow the FULL Gospel of Christ Jesus, growing and conforming into the image of Christ Jesus. At the moment you are pulling out scriptures that only agree with your carnal thinking and ignoring the rest. You will not repent from your religious deceit so you are blinded by the Lord. Do you understand the scriptures below?
1 Cor 14 v 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

...still on that dangerous ground of adding to the gospel

[FredFlanders]

Basically, you ignored my point completely, Flanders. 1 Corinthians 3 explicitly says that the bad Christian is still "saved." I want your response. Don't just post other verses and have me explain those to you also. I want to know how you explain 1 Corinthians 3. Do you believe the Bible is inerrant?

O,
Once again you are not taking time to read the Word of God, and the scriptures you quote.

1 Cor 3 v 15 quotes some Christians will be saved but suffer loss. This is because some of what he has done/created in his life will not enter into the kingdom of God. V 12 explains this, and they are material items and possessions which have not helped build the Kingdom of God. This does not does not mean he/she has sinned; only these items will not enter into the Kingdom of God.
1 Cor v 17 quotes some Christians destroying the temple within them by sin and God will destroy him eternally. The sins are false doctrine and sins such as Gal 5 v 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[FredFlanders]

flanders,

Can you please explain justification from your perspective.

thanks

What are you talking about exactly?

[FredFlanders]

You are adding to the gospel, flanders. When we believe we are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are saved. There is no condition in the gospel that you have to manefest all the gifts of the holy spirit before you are saved. That is NOT said anywhere in the bible. You are creating another gospel and you know what Paul said about those who do that, right?

Galatians 1:6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!


SparKo,
I have added nothing. What I have said to you comes from the Gospel not me.

When you believed you decided to follow the Gospel of Christ but you got led astray by the false prophets. You do not have the Holy Spirit. If you followed the Gospel of Christ you would have been baptised in water and then prayed for the Holy Spirit to fill you. But you took another direction by the the false prophets.

God is giving you the keys of the Kingdom of God and you will not take them.

1 John 4 v 17 quotes "as He is, so are we in this world' It is impossible to be like Jesus without the Holy Spirit. When you recieve the Holy Spirit I will not have to tell you that you can operate the gifts as you will KNOW you can personally because you will recieve the power to do so in the name of Jesus.

[FredFlanders]

...still on that dangerous ground of adding to the gospel

E,

Are you saying I am adding to the Gospel? And if so what have I said that does not come from the Gospel?

[Obsidian]

This is because some of what he has done/created in his life will not enter into the kingdom of God. V 12 explains this, and they are material items and possessions which have not helped build the Kingdom of God. This does not does not mean he/she has sinned; only these items will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

So we can waste our lives away, chasing worldly pursuits without serving God, but that's a totally different category of activity from actual sin? As far as I'm aware, even the Roman Catholics consider the flamable walls to be sin (And they use the passage to prove Purgatory). How do you differentiate normal worldliness from sin?

[eudyptes]

E,

Are you saying I am adding to the Gospel? And if so what have I said that does not come from the Gospel?
Sparko covered it pretty well....and I see where you handwaved it off with false accusations and nonBiblical statements...so don't see any benefit to rehashing the same for you to tell me because I haven't manifested all the gifts of the Holy Spirit I'm not saved.

May I suggest you look at the entire Bible without the blinders of having to prove yourself right, you might be surprised how different the Gospel is from what you claim it is.

[timspong]

What are you talking about exactly?

From your point of view; what is justification and how do you attain it?

[Sparko]

SparKo,
I have added nothing. What I have said to you comes from the Gospel not me.

When you believed you decided to follow the Gospel of Christ but you got led astray by the false prophets. You do not have the Holy Spirit. If you followed the Gospel of Christ you would have been baptised in water and then prayed for the Holy Spirit to fill you. But you took another direction by the the false prophets.

God is giving you the keys of the Kingdom of God and you will not take them.

1 John 4 v 17 quotes "as He is, so are we in this world' It is impossible to be like Jesus without the Holy Spirit. When you recieve the Holy Spirit I will not have to tell you that you can operate the gifts as you will KNOW you can personally because you will recieve the power to do so in the name of Jesus.

but flanders, I was baptized in water and I did receive the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between receiving the gift OF the Holy Spirit and receiving gifts FROM the Holy Spirit. Every Christian gets the Gift OF the Holy Spirit when the HS comes to indwell him.

There is nothing about every Christian getting every gift FROM the Holy Spirit.

That is your error. confusing the two.

[FredFlanders]

So we can waste our lives away, chasing worldly pursuits without serving God, but that's a totally different category of activity from actual sin? As far as I'm aware, even the Roman Catholics consider the flamable walls to be sin (And they use the passage to prove Purgatory). How do you differentiate normal worldliness from sin?

I have a job, I have brought my own car, I have brought furnature for our rented home, I go on vacation with my family etc etc. It does not mean I have sinned in doing any of these. This still does not mean I do not serve God as I represent God in all that I do but I do not expect any of these possesions to enter into the Kingdom of God. If God told me to give it all away for Him then so be it. To some material items and luxuries have become more important than their walk in Christ and cannot give up or change their ways to accomodate Christ. This has become idolitry to them and will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

Matt 19 v 24."It is harder for a rich man to enter into the Kingdomof God than for a camel the pass through the eye of a needle.

[FredFlanders]

but flanders, I was baptized in water and I did receive the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between receiving the gift OF the Holy Spirit and receiving gifts FROM the Holy Spirit. Every Christian gets the Gift OF the Holy Spirit when the HS comes to indwell him.

There is nothing about every Christian getting every gift FROM the Holy Spirit.

That is your error. confusing the two.I am glad to hear you followed Christ and got baptised in water. But you have not recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit. When you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit you recieve power to operate in all the functions of Christ which are represented in all the gifts. Tell me Sparko what happened to you when you recieved the Holy Spirit as you say you have received ?

[FredFlanders]

Sparko covered it pretty well....and I see where you handwaved it off with false accusations and nonBiblical statements...so don't see any benefit to rehashing the same for you to tell me because I haven't manifested all the gifts of the Holy Spirit I'm not saved.

May I suggest you look at the entire Bible without the blinders of having to prove yourself right, you might be surprised how different the Gospel is from what you claim it is.

I have never said that because some one has not manifested ALL the gifts that they do not have the Holy Spirit. But I have said that if you have the Holy Spirit you have access to ALL the Gifts. Some do not operate ALL the gifts because they are ignorant on how they work and learn how they operate at a Church meeting as we see in 1 Cor 12-14.

I do not expect you to understand this as you do not have the Holy Spirit.

Because some one believes in Christ does not mean they automatically have the Holy Spirit as it comes when you seek and pray for it as you desire to follow Christ.

[Sparko]

I am glad to hear you followed Christ and got baptised in water. But you have not recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit. When you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit you recieve power to operate in all the functions of Christ which are represented in all the gifts. Tell me Sparko what happened to you when you recieved the Holy Spirit as you say you have received ?

Ephesians 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

That's what happened to me flanders.

[FredFlanders]

Ephesians 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
And you also were included in Christ when
That's what happened to me flanders.
Sounds like nothing happened to you Sparko. The Word of Truth will tell you that you knock, ask & seek for the Holy Spirit. The word of Truth will tell you Power will come upon you when you recieve the Holy Spirit. You never recieved because you never asked. You must keep asking until you get it. When you get the Holy Spirit it will come with the Signs & Wonders of the Holy Spirit.

[Sparko]

Sounds like nothing happened to you Sparko. The Word of Truth will tell you that you knock, ask & seek for the Holy Spirit. The word of Truth will tell you Power will come upon you when you recieve the Holy Spirit. You never recieved because you never asked. You must keep asking until you get it. When you get the Holy Spirit it will come with the Signs & Wonders of the Holy Spirit.

Flanders, your gospel is no gospel at all. Your gospel is nothing but legalism and works and pride, you want to feel superior to others so you can dismiss their faith as not equal to your own.

Repent and embrace the true gospel of Jesus. His yoke is not heavy.

[Obsidian]

From your point of view; what is justification and how do you attain it?

I think I can answer for Fred, since he's not answering you anyway. His beliefs are rather obvious from what he's been saying. For him, eternal salvation involves the following steps:

1) Believe in the atonement of Jesus
2) Commit your life to serving God and doing only good works
3) Pray really hard to receive the Holy Spirit and/or have someone else with the Holy Spirit lay hands on you
4) Don't sin anymore, at least very much, lest you lose your eternal life
5) Check yourself repeatedly by working miracles and speaking strange "tongues" to make sure that you've properly followed steps 1-4.

The crazy thing is that his soteriology is more stringent than Catholicism.

[FredFlanders]

Flanders, your gospel is no gospel at all. Your gospel is nothing but legalism and works and pride, you want to feel superior to others so you can dismiss their faith as not equal to your own.

Repent and embrace the true gospel of Jesus. His yoke is not heavy.

Sparko,
My yoke is easy as my work is a gift of God. This you will not understand until you recieve the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said that the works He did, we would do also. It is not pride or legalism or of our own works but allowing the grace of God to work in us first. Jesus came not to be Master over us but to be a brother to us so we could be as He is. This happens when we recieve the Holy Spirit, Jesus loves us first and gives us His abilities to be like Him. It is not by our works but the grace/power/ability He gives us.

When you read 1 John 4 do not leave out v 17 "Because as He is so are we in this world"


1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19We love him, because he first loved us.

20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

[FredFlanders]

I think I can answer for Fred, since he's not answering you anyway. His beliefs are rather obvious from what he's been saying. For him, eternal salvation involves the following steps:

1) Believe in the atonement of Jesus
2) Commit your life to serving God and doing only good works
3) Pray really hard to receive the Holy Spirit and/or have someone else with the Holy Spirit lay hands on you
4) Don't sin anymore, at least very much, lest you lose your eternal life
5) Check yourself repeatedly by working miracles and speaking strange "tongues" to make sure that you've properly followed steps 1-4.

The crazy thing is that his soteriology is more stringent than Catholicism.
O,
You are as confused as most on this Web being led astray by your own carnal thinking and making it sound as if what I am saying are by my works.

All the gifts and fruits of the Spirit are given by the grace of God when you recieve the Holy Spirit. It is by nothing I have done or deserved to recieve this grace as it is a gift of God. Only made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus, so once again we can have communion with the true and living God.

This is something you will understand when you recieve the Holy Spirit. When you allow Jesus to love you first, then His love allows us to be like Him. Look at the scripture below. What do you think He gives us when He gives us His Spirit. Nothing? or does it allow us to do the things He did by His grace/power/ability?

1 John 4 v 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[Obsidian]

You're not even making logical arguments. All you're doing is spouting spiritual arrogance and making mystical comments. What part of my summary did you disagree with? Are you trying to tell me now that you don't think a believer can lose his salvation?

[RumTumTugger]

We receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ Period. . We do not have to pray and work to get the Holy Spirit. He is in us from the Day we accept Jesus Christ the verse Sparko quoted is very plain about that. You see some how you missed something in your learning how to study the bible for all it was worth. you are supposed ot take the main and plain passages that there is no mistaking waht they mean and use them to explain to you others that are not so understandable. You Fred Flanders have done the opposite decided that you understand the hard to understand passages and try to use them to explain away where the message is quite plain. Repent

[FredFlanders]

You're not even making logical arguments. All you're doing is spouting spiritual arrogance and making mystical comments. What part of my summary did you disagree with? Are you trying to tell me now that you don't think a believer can lose his salvation?

Yes a believer can loose their salvation if they do not walk out the full Gospel of Christ.

I am sorry if I have miss read your statement but this is how I would have put it.

1) Agreed
2) Follow Christ commandments by first of all being baptised in water (as symbolic of burying our old life and being born into the life of Christ.)
3) Agreed (As it is only the Holy Spirit that can enable us to walk in Christ)
4) Listen and follow the Holy Spirit and you will not continue in sin. If you do not listen to the Holy Spirit and continue in sin you will loose your salvation.
5) If you continue to walk in the Spirit, signs and wonders ( the gifts and fruit of the Spirit) will follow you as you minister Gospel of Christ.

At the moment O, you are making it sound like you have to do it all in your own strength but it is not like that. All we have to do is submit all of us (body and soul) to Christ and He empowers us by the Holy Spirit to do the Gifts/Works of the Spirit as led by the Spirit. It is the Grace of God that gives us Spiritual blessings.
To follow Christ you must be prepared to walk away and condemn all religious teaching that is not from Christ or else you will be bound by spirits that stop the living waters of Christ flowing from you.

[FredFlanders]

We receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ Period. . We do not have to pray and work to get the Holy Spirit. He is in us from the Day we accept Jesus Christ the verse Sparko quoted is very plain about that. You see some how you missed something in your learning how to study the bible for all it was worth. you are supposed ot take the main and plain passages that there is no mistaking waht they mean and use them to explain to you others that are not so understandable. You Fred Flanders have done the opposite decided that you understand the hard to understand passages and try to use them to explain away where the message is quite plain. Repent
RTT,
You do not receive the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ. There is no where in the Bible that happened nor does that happen today. This was a separate event after believing. Those that truly believed seeked God and were filled with the Holy Spirit after believing. You do not accept Christ but Christ only accept you if your heart is right toward Him and if it is, He will fill you with the Holy Spirit to enable us to do the works of Christ. Many accept Christ and the enemy comes with false doctrine and snatches them away before most receive the Holy Spirit.

Luke 8 v 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

[Obsidian]

So when Jesus compared himself to the bronze serpent, and told Nicodemus that whoever looked up and put their faith in the cross would be saved, was he just being inaccurate? Did the people healed by the bronze serpent have to do any good deeds before being healed?

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.


And saying that God will do the good works for you is a cop-out. You've already admitted that continued effort is required on the believer's part, because you admit that believers can cease following your required path and become damned. Your soteriology is basically straight works salvation. I can hardly even recognize the gospel in what you teach. In what sense is salvation even a gift at all under your system? It's something you have to earn!

[timspong]

O,
You are as confused as most on this Web being led astray by your own carnal thinking and making it sound as if what I am saying are by my works.

All the gifts and fruits of the Spirit are given by the grace of God when you recieve the Holy Spirit. It is by nothing I have done or deserved to recieve this grace as it is a gift of God. Only made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus, so once again we can have communion with the true and living God.

This is something you will understand when you recieve the Holy Spirit. When you allow Jesus to love you first, then His love allows us to be like Him. Look at the scripture below. What do you think He gives us when He gives us His Spirit. Nothing? or does it allow us to do the things He did by His grace/power/ability?

1 John 4 v 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

And what you are failing to understand is that our renewed desire to be Christlike in deed and thought (via the indwelt HS) is an outworking of justification, not the cause of it.

[FredFlanders]

So when Jesus compared himself to the bronze serpent, and told Nicodemus that whoever looked up and put their faith in the cross would be saved, was he just being inaccurate? Did the people healed by the bronze serpent have to do any good deeds before being healed?



And saying that God will do the good works for you is a cop-out. You've already admitted that continued effort is required on the believer's part, because you admit that believers can cease following your required path and become damned. Your soteriology is basically straight works salvation. I can hardly even recognize the gospel in what you teach. In what sense is salvation even a gift at all under your system? It's something you have to earn!

O,
We do not have to earn the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. He will only give it to you freely if you truly want to follow Christ. God will not force us to receive the Holy Spirit but if we want it, we pray for it. Once you receive the Holy Spirit God does not force us to comply with following the Holy Spirit. We still have free will to follow the Spirit of God or go back to our old carnal ways. If you read the parables of Jesus you will see that many believers with the Holy Spirit will not enter into the Kingdom of God if they waste the talents God has given them. We do the will of Jesus because we know His love and want to keep His commandments.

It is like a wife and husband. They love one another so they do what pleases the other partner but one can choose not to love and look else where, although one of the parties still loves the other one. Christ will always be the one that loves but when the resurrection comes the one that did not love will not enter into the marriage. But if they both still love one another both will enter into the marriage at the resurrection.

[FredFlanders]

And what you are failing to understand is that our renewed desire to be Christlike in deed and thought (via the indwelt HS) is an outworking of justification, not the cause of it.

T,
I still am not quite sure on what you are saying. If you put it in some other form or words I may understand your point.

[timspong]

T,
I still am not quite sure on what you are saying. If you put it in some other form or words I may understand your point.

i.e. there is no deed we can perform that will make any difference in whether we are saved or not. However, once we are saved, the indwelt Holy Spirit will start to reorient our desires towards Gods will and we will gradually produce fruit in keeping with repentance. i.e. we will perform good works.

[FredFlanders]

i.e. there is no deed we can perform that will make any difference in whether we are saved or not. However, once we are saved, the indwelt Holy Spirit will start to reorient our desires towards Gods will and we will gradually produce fruit in keeping with repentance. i.e. we will perform good works.T, I can agree that no works\deed of our own makes no difference with salvation. But only the deeds\works as led by the Holy Spirit leads us to salvation. ie gifts & fruits of the Holy Spirit. Agreed?

[timspong]

T, I can agree that no works\deed of our own makes no difference with salvation. But only the deeds\works as led by the Holy Spirit leads us to salvation. ie gifts & fruits of the Holy Spirit. Agreed?

Definitely NOT agreed!!! Works of any kind does not produce salvation. You are missing the whole point of the gospel. Our good works by the leading of the indwelt Holy Spirit are not for our own salvation (that has already been achieved), but rather to advance the purpose of the body of Christ here on earth.

[barnasha]

"do you agree that its not actually becoming a good person and doing good deeds that makes us great, but rather, our imagined salvation?"

[FredFlanders]

Definitely NOT agreed!!! Works of any kind does not produce salvation. You are missing the whole point of the gospel. Our good works by the leading of the indwelt Holy Spirit are not for our own salvation (that has already been achieved), but rather to advance the purpose of the body of Christ here on earth.Believers are called to do the Works of the Holy Spirit. Faith without works is dead. We bring our body into subjection of the Holy Spirit continually to ensure our salvation. 1 Cor 9 v 24-27. Our salvation is not already achieved if we fall away. That is easily seen in the parables of th Sower & the Seed, the five Wise & Foolish Virgins & the Master that gave His Servants the Tallents. Many are called but few are chosen.

[FredFlanders]

Definitely NOT agreed!!! Works of any kind does not produce salvation. You are missing the whole point of the gospel. Our good works by the leading of the indwelt Holy Spirit are not for our own salvation (that has already been achieved), but rather to advance the purpose of the body of Christ here on earth.Yes , I do agree that the Body of Christ (Church) is here to advance Christ here on earth for the redemption of the Human race to all that believe and follow the Gospel.

[FredFlanders]

So when Jesus compared himself to the bronze serpent, and told Nicodemus that whoever looked up and put their faith in the cross would be saved, was he just being inaccurate? Did the people healed by the bronze serpent have to do any good deeds before being healed?



And saying that God will do the good works for you is a cop-out. You've already admitted that continued effort is required on the believer's part, because you admit that believers can cease following your required path and become damned. Your soteriology is basically straight works salvation. I can hardly even recognize the gospel in what you teach. In what sense is salvation even a gift at all under your system? It's something you have to earn!
O,
Moses and the serpent on the stick is a good example on how the Holy Spirit works. It is the Holy Spirit that gives energy/power to the Word of God. Moses did this by faith with the serpent and stick but it was the Spirit of God that healed. God tells us to lay hands on the sick and speak the words but the Spirit of God that does the healing. We cast out demons by the Word of God but the Spirit of God casts them out. We read the Gospel but the Spirit of God gives the revelation. We lay hands on those who pray for the Holy Spirit but it is the Spirit of God that fills them. We pray in tongues but it is the Spirit of God that gives us the increase into the image of Christ.
Christ could not do any miracles until He was baptized by John and filled with the Holy Spirit. After Christ left His disciples they could not do any miracles or understand the revelation of Christ until they received the Holy Spirit. In Gen 1 v 1-3 when God spoke the Word the Spirit moved and created.

[FredFlanders]

"do you agree that its not actually becoming a good person and doing good deeds that makes us great, but rather, our imagined salvation?"

B,
I do not understand what you are saying? And is that question directed to me or Timpsong?

[fiddlin-john]

O,
Christ could not do any miracles until He was baptized by John and filled with the Holy Spirit.
I would be interested to see you develop this idea that Jesus was unable to perform miracles until he was baptized. I have not found any evidence of that in the scriptures. Perhaps you could show us where you base that opinion.

After Christ left His disciples they could not do any miracles or understand the revelation of Christ until they received the Holy Spirit.

And as far as your statement that the disciples could do no miracles until the Spirit was received, I agree. We again are not sure that they could not do such a thing, since they were able to do it while Jesus was with them, as is indicated below. But I do find it credible to think that this "ability" was not available from Easter to Pentacost.

Mat 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.
Mat 10:2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans,
Mat 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

[QUOTE]In Gen 1 v 1-3 when God spoke the Word the Spirit moved and created.
Yes, the Spirit as well as the Son.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[barnasha]

B,
I do not understand what you are saying? And is that question directed to me or Timpsong?

it is a paraphrase of what others seem to be saying.

their redemption is nothing real and tangible and enacted in their reality, but merely some doctrinal presupposition to wield over others. the latter is entirely useless both in this life and the hereafter

[fiddlin-john]

it is a paraphrase of what others seem to be saying.

their redemption is nothing real and tangible and enacted in their reality, but merely some doctrinal presupposition to wield over others. the latter is entirely useless both in this life and the hereafter

I'm not sure who you are quoting and how, but you seem to be missing the point of many posters on this topic. Most seem to be asserting the importance and blessing of their redemption, as evidenced by their conversion, justification, and ongoing sanctification through the HS.

But as I recall, you are a follower of legalism, so, in that context, I would see how you see this as useless!:lol:

[FredFlanders]

I would be interested to see you develop this idea that Jesus was unable to perform miracles until he was baptized. I have not found any evidence of that in the scriptures. Perhaps you could show us where you base that opinion.

[QUOTE]After Christ left His disciples they could not do any miracles or understand the revelation of Christ until they received the Holy Spirit.

And as far as your statement that the disciples could do no miracles until the Spirit was received, I agree. We again are not sure that they could not do such a thing, since they were able to do it while Jesus was with them, as is indicated below. But I do find it credible to think that this "ability" was not available from Easter to Pentacost.

Mat 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.
Mat 10:2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans,
Mat 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.


Yes, the Spirit as well as the Son.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
FJ,
Jesus could not do any miracles until He was baptized in the Spirit.

John 2 v 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

It was this Spirit that gave energy/power to the Word, the same as today when we receive the Holy Spirit. You will see in the scriptures Jesus did no miracles before this but only knew the Word.

The Disciples were able to do miracles when Jesus was with them before His death because as we know He was the Word and the Word was God. What Jesus said to them as we know was also the authority of God. When Jesus left them at His death the Disciples authority/light had left them. If you read the accounts of the Disciples between Easter and Pentecost you will see they were very much confused, dull and disillusioned at what had happened. As this authority/light of God had left them and no miracles were performed. Jesus was a Comforter/Teacher/Power to them when He was with them until His death but this Comforter/Teacher/Power did not come and abide with them again until the Disciples received the Holy Spirit.

To receive the Holy Spirit your heart must be right with God. In return we receive the Holy Spirit and the love of God. This is the GRACE the scriptures talk about. GRACE is receiving God’s favor with Spiritual blessings/gifts. A good Bible concordance will show you GRACE is also known as the Divine Ministry of Christ.

[FredFlanders]

it is a paraphrase of what others seem to be saying.

their redemption is nothing real and tangible and enacted in their reality, but merely some doctrinal presupposition to wield over others. the latter is entirely useless both in this life and the hereafter


B,
I believe you are right in some of what you say. Many so called christian's have a blind faith of their resurrection after death, the same as many other religions. However there is a tangible proof of your resurrection after death if you have the True Holy Spirit which comes with signs and wonders as Jesus performed.

Romans 8 v 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


1 Cor 14 v 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[fiddlin-john]

It was this Spirit that gave energy/power to the Word, the same as today when we receive the Holy Spirit. You will see in the scriptures Jesus did no miracles before this but only knew the Word.


The Disciples were able to do miracles when Jesus was with them before His death because as we know He was the Word and the Word was God. What Jesus said to them as we know was also the authority of God.

But only after the baptism? It seems here you are asserting an adoptionist theology, where Jesus becomes the Word/Christ only after baptism, and is the power of God only after the HS descends on him. And before that, he could not only do no miracles, but the miracles he was able to perform and the power to pass that on to his disciples came strictly from his HS baptism.


To receive the Holy Spirit your heart must be right with God. In return we receive the Holy Spirit and the love of God. This is the GRACE the scriptures talk about. GRACE is receiving God’s favor with Spiritual blessings/gifts. A good Bible concordance will show you GRACE is also known as the Divine Ministry of Christ.

You have asserted ad nauseum that we receive the HS upon conversion and we receive access to the entire Spirit. OK, now tell me how in the world our "heart" can be "right with God" before the conversion and therefore the baptism? It seems you are now saying some type of spiritual regeneration (getting right) occurs before the very conversion and the baptism. :ahem:

[FredFlanders]

But only after the baptism? It seems here you are asserting an adoptionist theology, where Jesus becomes the Word/Christ only after baptism, and is the power of God only after the HS descends on him. And before that, he could not only do no miracles, but the miracles he was able to perform and the power to pass that on to his disciples came strictly from his HS baptism.




You have asserted ad nauseum that we receive the HS upon conversion and we receive access to the entire Spirit. OK, now tell me how in the world our "heart" can be "right with God" before the conversion and therefore the baptism? It seems you are now saying some type of spiritual regeneration (getting right) occurs before the very conversion and the baptism. :ahem:

Jesus Christ’s journey from His birth to death was to fulfill His Father’s Word. This was fulfilled from His birth to mankind receiving the Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost. He came in flesh and blood the same as us, and was tempted with the same temptations as us and showed us that we could overcome the enemy death, by walking in His Father’s word. Jesus was God’s example for us to follow. In accordance to His Father’s word’s which He studied and listen to from a Child, He was baptized in water and then the Holy Spirit. This was an example for us to do also. Jesus received His power when the Holy Spirit came from heaven just after His baptism in water. The same as what happens today as we fulfill the Gospel of Christ. Like wise as He died in place of us for our sin’s, we now die also of our old sinful nature, take up His example and follow Him. If we do this we are able to enter the Kingdom of God here on earth but this only happens after the empowerment happens when we are filled with the Holy Spirit. We stay in the Kingdom walking on with Christ defeating the enemy and setting the captives free. We are able to do this by ALL the gifts and fruits given to us by the Holy Spirit.

I am not quite sure of you second question but I will try to answer.
Some believers commit themselves to Christ/the Word unconditionally, without question or compromise or self motive. I find that these believers get baptized in water and filled with the Holy Spirit with the signs following (Mark 16 v 16-18) immediately and continue on with the signs and wonders as they minister the Gospel. These are they that have a right heart.
Some so called believers will refuse baptism in water (at an age of understanding) or are willing to pray for the Holy Spirit as they have been led astray be false prophets in christian religion.
Then there are believers that are will get baptized in water and pray for the Holy Spirit but do not get filled because they have very strong spiritual stronghold’s over them, such as dealing in other divinations or want to serve two masters.
There are also believers that get baptized in water, get filled with the Holy Spirit but do not stay the course as persecution or other idols choke out their walk with the Lord and fall back into sin.All of these other examples are those that have not a correct heart with God. However if they return in repentance then god will forgive and allow into the Kingdom of God.
You will find all these examples in the parables and the sower and the seed and Simon in Acts 8.