We receive all the gifts when we receive the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

When reading scriptures there can be many different interpretations. You will actually see what you want to see and can be based on previous teachings and experiences.

When we receive the Holy Spirit there are at least three views on receiving the gifts of the Spirit.

(1) The gifts have ceased and were just for the Apostles of Jesus.

(2) We receive some of the gifts as God wills but not all.

(3) We receive all the gifts when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Without doubt #3 is what I believe and know to be the truth.

If you believe other wise I would be happy the discuss this with you.

[Obsidian]

You can state your opinion all you want, or focus on your supposed experiences (cf. Colossians 2:18) all you want. But until you can square your view with 1 Corinthians 12, there is no way I am going to believe that Christians ever received all the gifts, much less that they do so now. So therefore, please explain how your view syncs with that chapter.

[FredFlanders]

You can state your opinion all you want, or focus on your supposed experiences (cf. Colossians 2:18) all you want. But until you can square your view with 1 Corinthians 12, there is no way I am going to believe that Christians ever received all the gifts, much less that they do so now. So therefore, please explain how your view syncs with that chapter.

O,
We are told to believe all things and prove all things.

1 Cor 12 v 7 clearly states that the of the Spirit is givens to every man (not just some) for the profit of all. It is a verse many leave out to prove their point that we only are given some of the manifestations of the Spirit.

Chapters 11,12 & 13 of 1 Cor. deals with when the Church meets together and shows an example of how to conduct a meeting. (How ever most churches take little notice of this example today.) In that context Paul was telling the leaders of the Corinthian Church when you all meet together different people will manifest the manifestations of the Spirit. The manifestations of the Spirit is not given to one to do on his own nor is it done for all to do at the meeting but to several believers usually those more skilled and accomplished in the manifestations of the Spirit. The purpose of the gifts are for the profit of all at the meeting. At a meeting there will be newly converted Spirit filled Christians (or as the scripture puts it the more "uncomely parts of the body") who will learn how the gifts operate so they can operate them themselves. (as all can by faith) Or there will be non believers present so the Church is told not to all speak in tongues at once because this would seem silly to them but let it be done 2 or 3 times plus interpretation and prophesy.

This is what happens in the meetings I attend. It is not a problem for any believer to operate all the gifts once they understand how they are done. But it requires nothing more than faith (complete trust and reliance on God)

[Carrikature]

... usually those more skilled and accomplished in the manifestations of the Spirit. The purpose of the gifts are for the profit of all at the meeting. At a meeting there will be newly converted Spirit filled Christians (or as the scripture puts it the more "uncomely parts of the body") who will learn how the gifts operate so they can operate them themselves. (as all can by faith) Or there will be non believers present so the Church is told not to all speak in tongues at once because this would seem silly to them but let it be done 2 or 3 times plus interpretation and prophesy.

This is what happens in the meetings I attend. It is not a problem for any believer to operate all the gifts once they understand how they are done. But it requires nothing more than faith (complete trust and reliance on God)

You can't "learn how the gifts operate" and then be able to do them. They're not skills that can be taught. They're gifts, not skills. You don't get more skilled or accomplished in a gift.

You're still taking 1 Cor 12:7 out of context.

[FredFlanders]

You can't "learn how the gifts operate" and then be able to do them. They're not skills that can be taught. They're gifts, not skills. You don't get more skilled or accomplished in a gift.

You're still taking 1 Cor 12:7 out of context.

Yes C they are gifts given freely to every one who receives the Holy Spirit and yes they are not taught but are all operated by faith. Many believers however believe they are taught or God gives them to you if He wants to. This is incorrect, they are ALL given to believers and are operated by faith. That is how they are operated in a meeting for all to see who may be confused on this issue. Gifts such as tongues can turn into multiple languages through operation. Gifts such as wisdom, discernment and knowledge can also increase as we mature in our walk with Christ. Your faith, confidence and prophesy can increase as you use these gifts. Working of miracles and healing become more evident as we use these gifts.
The fact is we can use all the gifts by faith and seeing others more mature and experienced in the gifts gives us confidence to operate the gifts also. This was the purpose of meetings with other believers as we read in 1 Cor 12. The gifts were for the profit of ALL.


7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[Obsidian]

He specifically mentions the body as an analogy, in verses 12-31, because our bodies are not homogenous. Our bodies include many, diverse parts, with different roles for each organ and tissue.

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

[FredFlanders]

He specifically mentions the body as an analogy, in verses 12-31, because our bodies are not homogenous. Our bodies include many, diverse parts, with different roles for each organ and tissue.

O,
Read 1 Cor 12 again believing that the body is one person with many members (manifestations of the Spirit.).
The human body is used as an analogy of the Spiritual body we receive and goes on to say that that the Spiritual body we receive has many working parts (many members) and is not just one member but many. We also cannot say that that I have no need of thee (any of the parts of the Spiritual body) as they all have a necessary function and compliment each other. And tells us to covet the gifts and I will show you a more excellent way.
Many read these scriptures as each part of the body as being one person which is incorrect. It is one body (or one person) having many members (or spiritual manifestations).

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[Obsidian]

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?

The body is clearly the body of Christ, and not a body of each believer. The personification of the body parts proves the point. He is suggesting that each believer has different gifts, but that they should use their gifts to work together.

And you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do. You are suggesting that if someone does not perform miracles or prophecy or whatever, that they are not connected to the body.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

Why don't you tell me, are all apostles? If you wrote a letter to a church, for example, would it subsequently become holy scripture?

[FredFlanders]

The body is clearly the body of Christ, and not a body of each believer. The personification of the body parts proves the point. He is suggesting that each believer has different gifts, but that they should use their gifts to work together.

And you are doing exactly what Paul said not to do. You are suggesting that if someone does not perform miracles or prophecy or whatever, that they are not connected to the body.



Why don't you tell me, are all apostles? If you wrote a letter to a church, for example, would it subsequently become holy scripture?





1-The body each beleiver is baptised in is Christ and you will also see in verse 12 that the body we receive has many parts and we are all given the one Spiritual drink ( or that we all have access to all the manifestations of the Spirit.)

v 12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

2-No, what I am saying is when we receive the Holy Spirit (Christ) we receive all the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and we cannot say to any of the manifestations of the Spirit(parts of Christ's body) I have no need of you.

3- Your answer to your third question is Yes we can be all of verses 29 & 30 and this was the question Paul was asking the Corinthians. This is why we go to the Church meetings to learn and operate by faith all the works of Christ. (Although all the Spiritual gifts were given to us when we received the Holy Spirit many beleivers are ignorant of there operation so we can learn off others more accomplished in the Word of God and we put the gifts into operation through faith).

v 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

[T-Shirt Ninja]

The body each beleiver is baptised in is Christ and you will also see in verse 12 that the body we receive has many parts and we are all given the one Spiritual drink ( or that we all have access to all the manifestations of the Spirit.)

This is eisegesis. It seems that you are reading your own interpretation of each believer having all the gifts in verses 12 and 13 when the text says, "one Spirit." However, I see no reason to believe that the text at that point even begins to imply that believers have all the gifts when they receive the Holy Spirit.

[TyRockwell]

This is eisegesis. It seems that you are reading your own interpretation of each believer having all the gifts in verses 12 and 13 when the text says, "one Spirit." However, I see no reason to believe that the text at that point even begins to imply that believers have all the gifts when they receive the Holy Spirit.

You are right. The Holy Spirit divides the gifts to each one, severally, as He wills. 1st Cor. 12:11

[FredFlanders]

You are right. The Holy Spirit divides the gifts to each one, severally, as He wills. 1st Cor. 12:11

Ty,
We are baptised into the body of Christ and the body of Christ has many working parts (Spiritual manifestations) The scriptures go on to say that one part of the body (Spiritual gifts) cannot say to another part of the body (Spiritual gifts) I do not belong to the body and cease to be part of the body.
Another way of putting this would be that I cannot say that I speak in tongues yet I cannot lay hands on the sick or I cannot say that I can prophesy yet cannot teach the Word of God. The scriptures are saying that by the Body of Christ I can do all these things as we drink from the same spiritual drink and cannot say to one of the gifts that I have no need of you.

One Body, Many Parts
12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
13 For we were all baptised by one Spirit into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free— and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 If the foot should say, Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body, it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.

16 And if the ear should say, Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body, it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.

17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?

18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?

20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, I don't need you! And the head cannot say to the feet, I don't need you!

[FredFlanders]

This is eisegesis. It seems that you are reading your own interpretation of each believer having all the gifts in verses 12 and 13 when the text says, "one Spirit." However, I see no reason to believe that the text at that point even begins to imply that believers have all the gifts when they receive the Holy Spirit.

TSN,
We are baptised into the body of Christ and the body of Christ has many working parts (Spiritual manifestations) The scriptures go on to say that one part of the body (Spiritual gifts) cannot say to another part of the body (Spiritual gifts) I do not belong to the body and cease to be part of the body.
Another way of putting this would be that I cannot say that I speak in tongues yet I cannot lay hands on the sick or I cannot say that I can prophesy yet cannot teach the Word of God. The scriptures are saying that by the Body of Christ I can do all these things as we drink from the same spiritual drink and cannot say to one of the gifts that I have no need of you.

[Obsidian]

Heh, I wish I were an apostle. That way I could enlighten myself on some of the issues that have been troubling me lately. I can see it already -- 1 Obsidian. I think five chapters would make a nice epistle.

[candlesandfish]

Unfortunately I don't think it works like that. It seemed that the Apostles had insight for other people but not them. But hey, if we're all Apostles, just go find a friend and get them to write you an epistle, and write them one back :teeth:

[timspong]

Heh, I wish I were an apostle.

I'm not sure if I could handle the wretched physical life and the horrible martyrs death though.

[timspong]

When reading scriptures there can be many different interpretations. You will actually see what you want to see and can be based on previous teachings and experiences.

When we receive the Holy Spirit there are at least three views on receiving the gifts of the Spirit.

(1) The gifts have ceased and were just for the Apostles of Jesus.

(2) We receive some of the gifts as God wills but not all.

(3) We receive all the gifts when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Without doubt #3 is what I believe and know to be the truth.

If you believe other wise I would be happy the discuss this with you.


I think not!

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" (1 Corinthians 12:29-30)

[JonathanDW]

I believe in the cessation of Miraculous Gifts and I also have my reasons. However, I'd like to ask:

"Can you establish a purpose, from the scriptures, for the continuance of Miraculous Gifts?"

[TyRockwell]

I believe in the cessation of Miraculous Gifts and I also have my reasons. However, I'd like to ask:

"Can you establish a purpose, from the scriptures, for continuance of Miraculous Gifts?"

We are in a spiritual warfare with evil spirit powers. Therefore God gives us the powers of His Spirit.
Eph. 6:12-13
12. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

That passage begins with the COMMAND to "be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might." (Eph. 6:10)

1st Timothy 1:7 gives an explanation of what God's Spirit is for.
7. For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Jesus gave apostolic and prophetic gifts at the same time as he gave us evangelist, pastor and teacher gifts. They are all to last "Until we all come together in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." (Eph. 4:11-13)
1 1. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying (building up, strengthening) of the body of Christ,
13. UNtill we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

The UNTIL in the verse above indicates it will still happen. And all the gifts help us get there.


These gifts are to bring us the ability to do the things that Jesus did, "and greater things than these shall you do, because I go to the Father." (John 14:12)

Paul said the gifts were to last until the Second Coming of Jesus:
1st Cor. 1:7
7. so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Peace,
Ty

[Obsidian]

That's a weak argument. You don't need miracles or prophecy to engage in spiritual warfare. Those practices aren't even listed in the spiritual suit of armor described by Paul.

[TyRockwell]

That's a weak argument. You don't need miracles or prophecy to engage in spiritual warfare. Those practices aren't even listed in the spiritual suit of armor described by Paul.
No, a weak argument is one that excludes the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit.

[JonathanDW]

We are in a spiritual warfare with evil spirit powers. Therefore God gives us the powers of His Spirit.
Eph. 6:12-13
12. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

That passage begins with the COMMAND to "be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might." (Eph. 6:10)

1st Timothy 1:7 gives an explanation of what God's Spirit is for.
7. For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Jesus gave apostolic and prophetic gifts at the same time as he gave us evangelist, pastor and teacher gifts. They are all to last "Until we all come together in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." (Eph. 4:11-13)
1 1. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying (building up, strengthening) of the body of Christ,
13. UNtill we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

The UNTIL in the verse above indicates it will still happen. And all the gifts help us get there.


These gifts are to bring us the ability to do the things that Jesus did, "and greater things than these shall you do, because I go to the Father." (John 14:12)

Paul said the gifts were to last until the Second Coming of Jesus:
1st Cor. 1:7
7. so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Peace,
Ty

Rockwell,

I believe we can stand fast and put on the whole armor of God by studying the scriptures. I don't see the necessity of miraculous gifts in Ephesians 6:12,13. I believe that the scriptures are able to strengthen, encourage, and thoroughly furnish a man unto every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

I believe Ephesians 4:11-13 is best understood as the giving of miraculous apostles, pastors, teachers, etc. in order to preach and confirm the revelation of God (Hebrews 2:3,4). I believe we can all come to a unity in the faith. Thus, the unity has come and that which is in part has been done away with. (1 Corinthians 13:10)

I also believe that the works to which Jesus refers to in John 14:12 are those in which men preach the Gospel and save souls.

Take care,

Jonathan

[Obsidian]

The UNTIL in the verse above indicates it will still happen. And all the gifts help us get there.

I didn't see this part before, but are you suggesting that certain living Christians are currently apostles? (Are you becoming Catholic now?)

[FredFlanders]

Heh, I wish I were an apostle. That way I could enlighten myself on some of the issues that have been troubling me lately. I can see it already -- 1 Obsidian. I think five chapters would make a nice epistle.

O,
I am not quite sure where you are getting your teaching from but a good Bible Concordance and Church will help you.
An Apostle is some one who is a messanger of the Gospel of Christ. Are we not all Apostles?

[FredFlanders]

I think not!

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" (1 Corinthians 12:29-30)

T,
Do you think that Paul would tell us to desire and cultivate the Spiritual Gifts if they were not freely given to us when we received the Holy Spirit?

They are all working members of Christ's body which we receive by Faith (total obedience and trust in Jesus)

We cultivate the gifts by useing the gifts by faith in practical application and also we can learn how they operate in a Church that has the gifts.
Are you planted amongst the good ground or have you at the moment fallen upon the stoney ground and cannot bring forth the fruit?
If we are given one talent, we use it to bring forth more and if we do not use it then what we have will be taken away.

1 Corinthians 14
1EAGERLY PURSUE and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching).

[timspong]

T,
Do you think that Paul would tell us to desire and cultivate the Spiritual Gifts if they were not freely given to us when we received the Holy Spirit?

Yes. Our desire for certain gifts is likely to be compatible with our purpose in the body of Christ. No one person would recieve all the gifts, it just does not make any biblical sense and would violate the explicit context of 1 cor 12. i.e. a body of believers each with unique vocations and gifts that build up the body of Christ.


They are all working members of Christ's body which we receive by Faith (total obedience and trust in Jesus)

Yes members of one body not entire bodies in themselves.




We cultivate the gifts by useing the gifts by faith in practical application and also we can learn how they operate in a Church that has the gifts.
Are you planted amongst the good ground or have you at the moment fallen upon the stoney ground and cannot bring forth the fruit?
If we are given one talent, we use it to bring forth more and if we do not use it then what we have will be taken away.

nothing to respond to here.




1 Corinthians 14
1EAGERLY PURSUE and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching).

your point? Desiring gifts is absolutely in line with scripture. For one person to expect to recieve all of them is gross error.

[FredFlanders]

Yes. Our desire for certain gifts is likely to be compatible with our purpose in the body of Christ. No one person would recieve all the gifts, it just does not make any biblical sense and would violate the explicit context of 1 cor 12. i.e. a body of believers each with unique vocations and gifts that build up the body of Christ.



Yes members of one body not entire bodies in themselves.





your point? Desiring gifts is absolutely in line with scripture. For one person to expect to recieve all of them is gross error.

One person can receive all the gifts and Paul tells us in 1 Cor 14 v 1 to desire and cultivate them especially inspired preaching and teaching. Paul would not have said this unless it was possible.When we receive the Holy Spirit we have access to them all. We are also told to build up our faith by praying in the Holy Ghost (Speaking in tongues) ;Jude 20. This gift enables us to edify and grow in all things in Christ. Paul knew this and could operate all the gifts.
Have a read of 1 Cor 12 v 12-21 again as it is talking about the body we receive.
We are baptised into the body of Christ and the body of Christ has many working parts (Spiritual manifestations) The scriptures go on to say that one part of the body (Spiritual gifts) cannot say to another part of the body (Spiritual gifts) I do not belong to the body and cease to be part of the body.
Another way of putting this would be that I cannot say that I speak in tongues yet I cannot lay hands on the sick or I cannot say that I can prophesy yet cannot teach the Word of God. The scriptures are saying that by the Body of Christ I can do all these things as we drink from the same spiritual drink and cannot say to one of the gifts that I have no need of you.
The teaching of the Antichrist deny's some or all of the gifts. As you will see I have started a thread on this subject.

[timspong]

One person can receive all the gifts and Paul tells us in 1 Cor 14 v 1 to desire and cultivate them especially inspired preaching and teaching. Paul would not have said this unless it was possible.When we receive the Holy Spirit we have access to them all. We are also told to build up our faith by praying in the Holy Ghost (Speaking in tongues) ;Jude 20. This gift enables us to edify and grow in all things in Christ. Paul knew this and could operate all the gifts.
Have a read of 1 Cor 12 v 12-21 again as it is talking about the body we receive.
We are baptised into the body of Christ and the body of Christ has many working parts (Spiritual manifestations) The scriptures go on to say that one part of the body (Spiritual gifts) cannot say to another part of the body (Spiritual gifts) I do not belong to the body and cease to be part of the body.
Another way of putting this would be that I cannot say that I speak in tongues yet I cannot lay hands on the sick or I cannot say that I can prophesy yet cannot teach the Word of God. The scriptures are saying that by the Body of Christ I can do all these things as we drink from the same spiritual drink and cannot say to one of the gifts that I have no need of you.
The teaching of the Antichrist deny's some or all of the gifts. As you will see I have started a thread on this subject.

You need to seriously do a clear headed reading of 1 cor 12 and try to ignore for a moment all your hypercharismatic presuppositions.

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret" (1 Corinthians 12:28-31)

[Kelp]

I didn't see this part before, but are you suggesting that certain living Christians are currently apostles? (Are you becoming Catholic now?)
A lot of Word of Faith teachers claim there are living Apostles as well.

[timspong]

A lot of Word of Faith teachers claim there are living Apostles as well.

This is by no means limited to the "word of faith" movement. I think it is standard teaching throughout the entire charismatic world and beyond, however, some make the distinction between big "A" and small "a" apostles.

[Kelp]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Obsidian]

Cool, I want to meet one of these apostles.

[Bill the Cat]

The Mormons claim to have Apostles.

[Sparko]

wow, flanders seems to read the bible with some pretty fogged up glasses. There is no way a rational person can read...

1 Cor 7:
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

...and not see that Paul is SPECIFICALLY saying that the HS gives different gifts to different people.

Heck, that is the whole POINT of the chapter. The Corinthians were all thinking like Flanders and wanting all the gifts and being jealous of each other if one had one gift and they didn't. So Paul had to write to them telling them that the Spirit gives each different gifts because we are all not the same "part" of Christ's body. We each have different jobs and different gifts to help us with those jobs.

[FredFlanders]

wow, flanders seems to read the bible with some pretty fogged up glasses. There is no way a rational person can read...

1 Cor 7:
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

...and not see that Paul is SPECIFICALLY saying that the HS gives different gifts to different people.

Heck, that is the whole POINT of the chapter. The Corinthians were all thinking like Flanders and wanting all the gifts and being jealous of each other if one had one gift and they didn't. So Paul had to write to them telling them that the Spirit gives each different gifts because we are all not the same "part" of Christ's body. We each have different jobs and different gifts to help us with those jobs.

Sparco, the context of the scripture is at a Church meeting. Paul was giving an example to the Corinthian Church on how the gifts operate in a meeting so all things could be done decently and in order. And not have every one operating every gift but dividing as the Spirit wills to some of the memebers of the Church for the profit of all.

[JAYMZ]

I guess you only get all of the gifts of the spirit IF you attend a charismatic church.

[Brandalf85]

So, the Gifts of the Spirit are like a video game RPG? If I get enough experience, I can spend them on NEW gifts? AWESOME!!! Sign me up!!!

"You have attended 3 classes. Lvl up!" ~victory music~

:duh:

[Sparko]

Sparco, the context of the scripture is at a Church meeting. Paul was giving an example to the Corinthian Church on how the gifts operate in a meeting so all things could be done decently and in order. And not have every one operating every gift but dividing as the Spirit wills to some of the memebers of the Church for the profit of all.

No. Paul was writing a letter to the church, it was not written at a church meeting.

second, if everyone got all the gifts, then Paul would have said so instead of spending an entire chapter explaining just the opposite, spelling out clearly that one person gets this gift and another gets another gift.

The chapter makes no sense at all if read the way you try to twist it to mean.

But I can see that you are unteachable and will not listen to reason or debate. You know it all and nobody can tell you differently.

personally I let the bible teach me what it means, instead of me forcing the bible to mean what I want it to, like you do.

You need to humble yourself before God and pray for the gift of interpretation and discernment, which you clearly lack.

[Sparko]

So, the Gifts of the Spirit are like a video game RPG? If I get enough experience, I can spend them on NEW gifts? AWESOME!!! Sign me up!!!

"You have attended 3 classes. Lvl up!" ~victory music~

:duh:


yeah maybe you earn talent points like in world of warcraft and you can spend it in the talent tree to build yourself into the perfect prayer warrior. 2 points in Tongues, 1 in healing, 2 in prophecy, etc.

[RumTumTugger]

yeah maybe you earn talent points like in world of warcraft and you can spend it in the talent tree to build yourself into the perfect prayer warrior. 2 points in Tongues, 1 in healing, 2 in prophecy, etc.

or in the achievment tree in EQ2 or go down the whole wisdom tree and get the special teaching gift to help you let people know the truth.

[FredFlanders]

No. Paul was writing a letter to the church, it was not written at a church meeting.

second, if everyone got all the gifts, then Paul would have said so instead of spending an entire chapter explaining just the opposite, spelling out clearly that one person gets this gift and another gets another gift.

The chapter makes no sense at all if read the way you try to twist it to mean.

But I can see that you are unteachable and will not listen to reason or debate. You know it all and nobody can tell you differently.

personally I let the bible teach me what it means, instead of me forcing the bible to mean what I want it to, like you do.

You need to humble yourself before God and pray for the gift of interpretation and discernment, which you clearly lack.

Sparco,
Thank God for the gift of patience.

1 Cor 11 v 18 states The Corinthians coming together as a congregation at applies until the end of 1 Cor 14.

I do respect your attitude about not having the Bible forced upon you as I do not want you to believe me but the Word of God.

Not all will be operating the gifts but as they grow in Christ they will know they can
access to any gift when called upon.

The fact of the matter is you will not know wether what I am saying or not is true unless you get confirmation from God and that will happen when you receive the Holy Spirit and the power I talk of. The points you have raised are in the thread about the Antichrist.

[FredFlanders]

No. Paul was writing a letter to the church, it was not written at a church meeting.

second, if everyone got all the gifts, then Paul would have said so instead of spending an entire chapter explaining just the opposite, spelling out clearly that one person gets this gift and another gets another gift.

The chapter makes no sense at all if read the way you try to twist it to mean.

But I can see that you are unteachable and will not listen to reason or debate. You know it all and nobody can tell you differently.

personally I let the bible teach me what it means, instead of me forcing the bible to mean what I want it to, like you do.

You need to humble yourself before God and pray for the gift of interpretation and discernment, which you clearly lack.

And Sparco, timsong, Ty and others have shown me something. Yes you are correct. We are one of the members of Christ body/part/organs working together but that is not to say that the Body or Church's function is to bring everybody into the fullness of Christ coming short in no gift.

[Sparko]

And Sparco, timsong, Ty and others have shown me something. Yes you are correct. We are one of the members of Christ body/part/organs working together but that is not to say that the Body or Church's function is to bring everybody into the fullness of Christ coming short in no gift.

considering that you can't even read my name right (it is sparko) you do not inspire any confidence in me as to your ability to read the bible correctly, Fred.

Perhaps you should go back and read SLOWER. Paul specifically is saying that not everyone gets all the gifts. He says that one person gets one gift and another gets another gift. Then he goes on to as the rhetorical questions of Are all prophets? are all apostles? etc. The answer is obviously "no"

[John Reece]

Paul specifically is saying that not everyone gets all the gifts. He says that one person gets one gift and another gets another gift. Then he goes on to ask the rhetorical questions of Are all prophets? are all apostles? etc. The answer is obviously "no"

:thumb:

From Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians 12-14 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), by D. A. Carson:
The main purpose of the list in this context, however, is to lead up to the concluding rhetorical questions, whose form in Greek indicates that Paul expects a firm negative after each one: "Are all apostles? No! Are all prophets? No! Are all teachers? No! Do all work miracles? No! Do all have gifts of healing? No! Do all speak in tongues? No! Do all interpret? No!.

Carson's superb book is available here (http://www.amazon.com/Showing-Spirit-Theological-Exposition-Corinthians/dp/0801025214/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245525764&sr=1-1). Read the reviews: 8 of 8 give the book the maximum 5-star rating.

[FredFlanders]

:thumb:

From Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians 12-14 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), by D. A. Carson:
The main purpose of the list in this context, however, is to lead up to the concluding rhetorical questions, whose form in Greek indicates that Paul expects a firm negative after each one: "Are all apostles? No! Are all prophets? No! Are all teachers? No! Do all work miracles? No! Do all have gifts of healing? No! Do all speak in tongues? No! Do all interpret? No!.

Carson's superb book is available here (http://www.amazon.com/Showing-Spirit-Theological-Exposition-Corinthians/dp/0801025214/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245525764&sr=1-1). Read the reviews: 8 of 8 give the book the maximum 5-star rating.
John, we can have all the gifts as we grow in Christ. Paul told us to desire and cultivate them.

Paul was talking to the Corinthian Church who were a dis organised and a confused mess in their Church meetings. Many people had much to say and the meetings were out of order . So Paul was telling them that one should have a word of wisdom, to one knowlege, to one healing, two or three speaking in tongues and not all at once etc. so things are done decently and in order.

We have access to ALL the gifts when we recieve the Holy Spirit. (we all drink out of the same spiritual drink) Although not all may be operating them as yet. Some of the gifts come very naturally and easily to some because they understand the operation of them though what they have observed within the meetings before. Some gifts don't but we need to understand how they operate and take steps of faith to perfect them. Many new comers to the True Church of Christ that have not seen the gifts in operation before may take longer again to activate the gifts but all can through faith. Faith can come by hearing the Word of God and can be built up by praying in the Spirit (tongues)

[Pilgrim]

I can't think of many more wrong headed statements on Theologyweb than the one posed as the title of this thread.

[Sparko]

John, we can have all the gifts as we grow in Christ. Paul told us to desire and cultivate them.

Paul was talking to the Corinthian Church who were a dis organised and a confused mess in their Church meetings. Many people had much to say and the meetings were out of order . So Paul was telling them that one should have a word of wisdom, to one knowlege, to one healing, two or three speaking in tongues and not all at once etc. so things are done decently and in order.

We have access to ALL the gifts when we recieve the Holy Spirit. (we all drink out of the same spiritual drink) Although not all may be operating them as yet. Some of the gifts come very naturally and easily to some because they understand the operation of them though what they have observed within the meetings before. Some gifts don't but we need to understand how they operate and take steps of faith to perfect them. Many new comers to the True Church of Christ that have not seen the gifts in operation before may take longer again to activate the gifts but all can through faith. Faith can come by hearing the Word of God and can be built up by praying in the Spirit (tongues)

But Paul didn't say that they had all the gifts and just should use them in order there did he? he said the sprit GAVE one gift to one person and GAVE another gift to another person.

If we who don't have all of the spiritual gifts, like you claim we should, don't have the Holy Spirit, does that mean you think we are not true Christians? Does that mean we are not saved? Are we instead worshiping the antichrist?

[FredFlanders]

But Paul didn't say that they had all the gifts and just should use them in order there did he? he said the sprit GAVE one gift to one person and GAVE another gift to another person.

If we who don't have all of the spiritual gifts, like you claim we should, don't have the Holy Spirit, does that mean you think we are not true Christians? Does that mean we are not saved? Are we instead worshiping the antichrist?

The word "Christian" means to be anointed with the oil or Holy Spirit. Most people who call them selves Christians do not have the Holy Spirit. They have just repented and then found them selves in an Antichrist religion. You will see in the Bible that being filled with the Holy Spirit was a separate experience or event after repentance or believing. If you read Jesus's promises to believers before His resurrection you will see this. And if you read the book of Acts you will see this event take place after people believed.

The first tangable gift you will have is to be able to pray in tongues. You will also at that time receive a faith to know you can operate all the other gifts as they are presented to you through the word of God. They include all the gifts in Corinthians.

If I was in any of those Antichrist religions I would have plenty of questions on what they preach.

I see your zeal for God but you need to seek Him out further according to what is in the Gospel.

It is easy to see who is a Christian as they will have the same manifestations as did Christ and will not deny them.

[timspong]

Shouldn't this thread be in the Unorthodox theology dept as it is clearly outside the bounds of christian orthodoxy?

[Obsidian]

Just outside the bounds of Protestantism, I think, not outside orthodoxy. People can add additional steps to the salvation process all day long and still be orthodox.

[eudyptes]

The word "Christian" means to be anointed with the oil or Holy Spirit. Most people who call them selves Christians do not have the Holy Spirit. They have just repented and then found them selves in an Antichrist religion. You will see in the Bible that being filled with the Holy Spirit was a separate experience or event after repentance or believing. If you read Jesus's promises to believers before His resurrection you will see this. And if you read the book of Acts you will see this event take place after people believed.

The first tangable gift you will have is to be able to pray in tongues. You will also at that time receive a faith to know you can operate all the other gifts as they are presented to you through the word of God. They include all the gifts in Corinthians.

If I was in any of those Antichrist religions I would have plenty of questions on what they preach.

I see your zeal for God but you need to seek Him out further according to what is in the Gospel.

It is easy to see who is a Christian as they will have the same manifestations as did Christ and will not deny them.

[emphasis mine]

So...if I understand you correctly...what you're saying is until you speak in tongues you don't have the Holy Spirit?
....or to state it another way.....you aren't saved until you speak in tongues?

[Sparko]

The word "Christian" means to be anointed with the oil or Holy Spirit. Most people who call them selves Christians do not have the Holy Spirit. They have just repented and then found them selves in an Antichrist religion. You will see in the Bible that being filled with the Holy Spirit was a separate experience or event after repentance or believing. If you read Jesus's promises to believers before His resurrection you will see this. And if you read the book of Acts you will see this event take place after people believed.

The first tangable gift you will have is to be able to pray in tongues. You will also at that time receive a faith to know you can operate all the other gifts as they are presented to you through the word of God. They include all the gifts in Corinthians.

If I was in any of those Antichrist religions I would have plenty of questions on what they preach.

I see your zeal for God but you need to seek Him out further according to what is in the Gospel.

It is easy to see who is a Christian as they will have the same manifestations as did Christ and will not deny them.

The bible says that those who believe in Christ and call on him to be their Lord will be saved. It doesn't say you have to manifest miraculous gifts.

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I have done this. Am I saved?

[JAYMZ]

Fred, can you give us some examples of anti-christ religions ?

[One Bad Pig]

According to his definition, Orthodoxy can't be an anti-christ religion, since all Orthodox are anointed with oil. On the other hand, the Orthodox don't all speak in tongues. :hrm:

[FredFlanders]

[emphasis mine]

So...if I understand you correctly...what you're saying is until you speak in tongues you don't have the Holy Spirit?
....or to state it another way.....you aren't saved until you speak in tongues?



You are not saved at the resurrection of the Saints until you are filled with the Holy Spirit. Seek for the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded and God will give you the power to operate all the gifts including speaking in tongues.

1 Cor 14 v 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, can you give us some examples of anti-christ religions ?

Jaymz,
any religion who talk against all or some of the gifts speak against Christ. As we were all bapised into His body. The members of His body operate the gifts of the Spirit. 1 Cor 12-14.

[FredFlanders]

The bible says that those who believe in Christ and call on him to be their Lord will be saved. It doesn't say you have to manifest miraculous gifts.

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I have done this. Am I saved?

Sparco if you do not have the Holy Spirit you will not be in the resurrection of the Saints. You need to obey Jesus’ first command after his resurrection and seek for the Holy Spirit. When you receive the Holy Spirit you are given God's power to operate all the gifts and truly be able to confess and believe in the name of Jesus. None of you need to worry about operating any gift as yet as God will give you that power after the Holy Spirit has filled you.
Go and get the Holy Spirit.

[eudyptes]

You are not saved at the resurrection of the Saints until you are filled with the Holy Spirit. Seek for the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded and God will give you the power to operate all the gifts including speaking in tongues.

1 Cor 14 v 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


Thank you for the clarification...thought that's what you were getting at.....
Since I received the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ephesians%201.13-14); Romans 8:9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%208.9) ), external signs such as tongues are not needed as proof.

[FredFlanders]

Thank you for the clarification...thought that's what you were getting at.....
Since I received the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ephesians%201.13-14); Romans 8:9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%208.9) ), external signs such as tongues are not needed as proof.E, you must have stood in the wrong line when the Holy Spirit was given because Eph 1 v 3 says we received EVERY spiritual blessing.

[FredFlanders]

Just outside the bounds of Protestantism, I think, not outside orthodoxy. People can add additional steps to the salvation process all day long and still be orthodox.
Salvation is in those who want to follow the full Gospel of Christ and not about picking out the parts they want to understand with their natural, carnal thinking.

[eudyptes]

E, you must have stood in the wrong line when the Holy Spirit was given because Eph 1 v 3 says we received EVERY spiritual blessing.

...so by your postings....you would consider me not saved?

[timspong]

Salvation is in those who want to follow the full Gospel of Christ and not about picking out the parts they want to understand with their natural, carnal thinking.

Well at least you are now aware of your error, I guess that is the first stage to recovery.

[Sparko]

Sparco if you do not have the Holy Spirit you will not be in the resurrection of the Saints. You need to obey Jesus’ first command after his resurrection and seek for the Holy Spirit. When you receive the Holy Spirit you are given God's power to operate all the gifts and truly be able to confess and believe in the name of Jesus. None of you need to worry about operating any gift as yet as God will give you that power after the Holy Spirit has filled you.
Go and get the Holy Spirit.


I have the Holy Spirit. All who believe have the Holy Spirit. FAITH in Christ's sacrifice and Jesus as our Lord is what makes us Christian and when we believe we get the Holy Spirit. But that doesn't mean we all get all of the gifts. You are wrong. Paul clearly teaches against such nonsense as you propose.

and your response it to claim we don't have the Holy Spirit and are worshipping the antichrist. You speak against God's work and the Holy Spirit when you make such outlandish claims.

Ephesians 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

[RumTumTugger]

E, you must have stood in the wrong line when the Holy Spirit was given because Eph 1 v 3 says we received EVERY spiritual blessing.

emphasis mine. it says nothing about the Gifts as in prophecy, teaching etc.. blessings are something different.

[T-Shirt Ninja]

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that people will become extremely distraught when they try to lay their hands on others to heal them, try to speak in tongues, etc. and nothing happens. I've read multiple stories of people who have gone through that awful experience and wondered if they were truly saved because they couldn't do those things.

Personally, I can't imagine going up to a fellow church member and telling them that they aren't saved because when they laid hands on sister so-and-so last week she wasn't healed. It's ridiculous, unbiblical, and quite frankly, cultic. Here's the right term I'd use to describe it: ABUSE. Fred, I know you think you're doing well, but this mindset that you have will only hurt others and possibly shipwreck their faith. We have showed you over and over again through Scripture (specifically, 1 Corinthians 12:20-31) that Paul taught that believers do not receive all the gifts but do receive the same Spirit. When a Christian is distraught because he/she cannot heal someone even though they have tried, that doesn't mean that they aren't saved. That means that God in His sovereignty did not give them that specific gift.

Also, the gospel is quite easily laid out in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Check it out:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

It is upon trusting the finished work of Christ on the cross that we are saved (Ephesians 2:9-10), not experiential gifts. It's becoming more and more clear to me that you are adding to the gospel. Ephesians 1:13-14 is clear about the Spirit's role:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

We receive the Spirit when we believe the gospel. It's that simple. Seeking after spiritual gifts does not mean you are seeking after salvation (since you already have it when you believe). I can only imagine that it must be absolute torture for someone who goes to your church who doesn't operate in all of the gifts. Even if you don't condemn them openly, I'm sure they would feel condemned inside because of this false teaching.

[FredFlanders]

Thank you for the clarification...thought that's what you were getting at.....
Since I received the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ephesians%201.13-14); Romans 8:9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%208.9) ), external signs such as tongues are not needed as proof.

Mouthing words of confession in Christ is useless unless you follow through with obedience. Luke 6 v 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Receiving the Holy Spirit was a separate event after repentance and baptism in water.
After Christ resurrection his first commandment to believers was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit and power which came to those who went to the upper room to receive. Those that did not go did not receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 1-2. This event continued through the book of Acts were Christ was preached and the Holy Spirit moved upon them and they spoke in tongues or believers had hands laid upon them they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.
This is the way people receive the Holy Spirit today as well. Nothing has changed.

[FredFlanders]

...so by your postings....you would consider me not saved?

E, first of all you need to repent to the full Gospel of Christ. It is as easy as a,b,c but at the moment you cannot get past "a" because you refuse to seek for the Holy Spirit. You are just sitting next to to pond waiting for some one to put you in for your spiritual blessing but it will not happen until you get up and walk after the promises.

[FredFlanders]

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that people will become extremely distraught when they try to lay their hands on others to heal them, try to speak in tongues, etc. and nothing happens. I've read multiple stories of people who have gone through that awful experience and wondered if they were truly saved because they couldn't do those things.

Personally, I can't imagine going up to a fellow church member and telling them that they aren't saved because when they laid hands on sister so-and-so last week she wasn't healed. It's ridiculous, unbiblical, and quite frankly, cultic. Here's the right term I'd use to describe it: ABUSE. Fred, I know you think you're doing well, but this mindset that you have will only hurt others and possibly shipwreck their faith. We have showed you over and over again through Scripture (specifically, 1 Corinthians 12:20-31) that Paul taught that believers do not receive all the gifts but do receive the same Spirit. When a Christian is distraught because he/she cannot heal someone even though they have tried, that doesn't mean that they aren't saved. That means that God in His sovereignty did not give them that specific gift.

Also, the gospel is quite easily laid out in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Check it out:



It is upon trusting the finished work of Christ on the cross that we are saved (Ephesians 2:9-10), not experiential gifts. It's becoming more and more clear to me that you are adding to the gospel. Ephesians 1:13-14 is clear about the Spirit's role:



We receive the Spirit when we believe the gospel. It's that simple. Seeking after spiritual gifts does not mean you are seeking after salvation (since you already have it when you believe). I can only imagine that it must be absolute torture for someone who goes to your church who doesn't operate in all of the gifts. Even if you don't condemn them openly, I'm sure they would feel condemned inside because of this false teaching.

I have not said because a sister has not been healed they are not saved so do not go there with me.
The only faith God will make ship wreck are the ships that already have the holes in it.

The word of God is not abuse but the Truth. Can you handle the Truth TSN.

The Gospel of Christ is the full Gospel and not bits and peices.

Luke 6 v 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

1 Cor 14 v 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Acts 19 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

[eudyptes]

E, first of all you need to repent to the full Gospel of Christ. It is as easy as a,b,c but at the moment you cannot get past "a" because you refuse to seek for the Holy Spirit. You are just sitting next to to pond waiting for some one to put you in for your spiritual blessing but it will not happen until you get up and walk after the promises.

....so you throw out verses such as Romans 10:9-13; Eph 1:13.....and have added steps to the gospel;

dangerous ground to be standing on

[FredFlanders]

....so you throw out verses such as Romans 10:9-13; Eph 1:13.....and have added steps to the gospel;

dangerous ground to be standing on

E, the Gospel does not stop with those scriptures. You need to follow on and get baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, then be led by the Spirit and grow from faith to faith into the fullness (image) of Christ. If you believe in Jesus you follow his word. His first commandment was baptism in water (at repentance) then to go and receive the Holy Spirit. They are all separate events.
If you stop there you will be like the 5 foolish virgins who had no oil (Holy Spirit) and called to the Lord to let them into the wedding. But the Lord said he did not know them.
The Holy Spirit is something you go and get after repentance and baptism in water.

[Sparko]

E, the Gospel does not stop with those scriptures. You need to follow on and get baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, then be led by the Spirit and grow from faith to faith into the fullness (image) of Christ. If you believe in Jesus you follow his word. His first commandment was baptism in water (at repentance) then to go and receive the Holy Spirit. They are all separate events.
If you stop there you will be like the 5 foolish virgins who had no oil (Holy Spirit) and called to the Lord to let them into the wedding. But the Lord said he did not know them.
The Holy Spirit is something you go and get after repentance and baptism in water.

sounds like you are adding works to the gospel. speaking in tongues, doing miracles, etc, are all works. If you say you must do them to be saved, then you are adding works to the gospel.

Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

and you certainly seem to be boasting about how you can do all the gifts and we can't so that you are saved and we are not.

Repent of your legalism and foolishness.

[eudyptes]

E, the Gospel does not stop with those scriptures. You need to follow on and get baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, then be led by the Spirit and grow from faith to faith into the fullness (image) of Christ. If you believe in Jesus you follow his word. His first commandment was baptism in water (at repentance) then to go and receive the Holy Spirit. They are all separate events.
If you stop there you will be like the 5 foolish virgins who had no oil (Holy Spirit) and called to the Lord to let them into the wedding. But the Lord said he did not know them.
The Holy Spirit is something you go and get after repentance and baptism in water.

Um...nope....I don't go and "get" the Holy Spirit, He indwells and seals me at the time of salvation. Sorry, you're adding, as Sparko pointed out, things to the Gospel that aren't Biblical.

[Obsidian]

If you believe in Jesus you follow his word.

Not necessarily true.

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world

John seems to assume that at least some of his readers will violate Jesus's commands in the future.

[FredFlanders]

sounds like you are adding works to the gospel. speaking in tongues, doing miracles, etc, are all works. If you say you must do them to be saved, then you are adding works to the gospel.

Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

and you certainly seem to be boasting about how you can do all the gifts and we can't so that you are saved and we are not.

Repent of your legalism and foolishness.These miracles/gifts are freely given to us when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2 v 8 Yes we are saved by grace. Jesus paid the price for our sins and died in place of us. Now we have access to God without our own works and can conform into His image which was represented by Christ but only by the free gift of the Holy Spirit which you must seek after. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit we can do the gifts/manifestations of Christ and not by our own works/strength. Once you have the Holy Spirit it will remain with you forever and you will have your prayer language of tongues to speak to God at any time.
This you will not understand until you receive the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 14 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[FredFlanders]

Um...nope....I don't go and "get" the Holy Spirit, He indwells and seals me at the time of salvation. Sorry, you're adding, as Sparko pointed out, things to the Gospel that aren't Biblical.

No it does not, you have to seek after it.

We only get salvation through believing and following through with the full Gospel message. Repentance to Baptism in water to Baptism in the Holy Spirit to walking in the Spirit and growing from faith to faith.

Repentance means that I am now going to follow Christ with word and actions. When you make Jesus your Lord this means he is your Master and you follow Him according to His Word. If you o that the first part of the journey is baptism in water and then the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They are all separate events.

Acts 2:38 (Step 1) Repent and (Step 2) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and (Step 3) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You need to seek after and desire the Holy Spirit. You do not sit there and wait for a bolt from heaven.

In Acts 19 you will see these people are believers but did not have the Holy Spirit and went through the steps of baptism in water and then the Holy Spirit.

Acts 191And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

[FredFlanders]

Not necessarily true.



John seems to assume that at least some of his readers will violate Jesus's commands in the future.

That is true and most are talking to me on this thread but God will forgive if they repent and turn around and follow His word. There is no forgiveness by God unless you repent of the sin. Baptism in water and seeking for the Holy Spirit is what is required of us but to continue to ignore His direction then you will be with the five foolish virgins.

1 Cor 14 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.