What sort of Demon am I dealing with?

[FredFlanders]

In our group of believers we have delivered many from demons but this one will not go. Has any one dealt with some one who has been possessed with a demon that has come from a Mummy? This particular lady now 41 years of age is zealous for Christ yet manifests dramatically during meetings particularly when we are praying in the Spirit. We have found out from her parents that when she was 12 years of age that they visited a museum where there was a Mummy on show and apparently she fell down unexplainably and then told her parents that she felt some thing come inside of her. Today when the manifestations take place it also includes a demonic type of “speaking in tongues” although I know it not to be the Holy Spirit “speaking in tongues” as I am Pentecostal and understand what this is. Over a number of months we have patiently tried to expel the demon but it is a tough one and we have not found the key as yet. The demon will not tell us its name.
Does anyone have knowledge of such “Mummy” demons and can offer some advice to expel the demon?

[TyRockwell]

In our group of believers we have delivered many from demons but this one will not go. Has any one dealt with some one who has been possessed with a demon that has come from a Mummy? This particular lady now 41 years of age is zealous for Christ yet manifests dramatically during meetings particularly when we are praying in the Spirit. We have found out from her parents that when she was 12 years of age that they visited a museum where there was a Mummy on show and apparently she fell down unexplainably and then told her parents that she felt some thing come inside of her. Today when the manifestations take place it also includes a demonic type of “speaking in tongues” although I know it not to be the Holy Spirit “speaking in tongues” as I am Pentecostal and understand what this is. Over a number of months we have patiently tried to expel the demon but it is a tough one and we have not found the key as yet. The demon will not tell us its name.
Does anyone have knowledge of such “Mummy” demons and can offer some advice to expel the demon?

I see that this spirit usually manifests in your meetings, particularly when you are praying in the Spirit. In a meeting, then, is not the place where she needs to be ministered to. In a private place, with a small group of people who have no fear whatsoever will be a better place. Jesus took one person out of the village where he lived to be able to heal him. Then he told him, "Do not go back into the village." There were probably too many fearful people, faithless people in the village. It is likely true of the church setting. Sorry, but there must be no one present with any fear.

Do not be concerned with the demon's name. Name it yourself a "peeping, muttering spirit" or by some identifying trait you see.

Even Jesus could do no mighty miracles in Nazareth, his hometown, because the people would not think of him as anyone other than the boy they thought they knew who grew up in that town. They would not honor the Holy Spirit that had come upon him after he left Nazareth and was baptized by John in the Jordan River. Such a baptism in the Holy Spirit changes a person into 'another man.' This is what Samuel said to Saul after he was anointed to be the first king of Israel: "You will be changed into another man."

Also, you might need to call in another man with the anointing to cast out demons, or bring her to that person. The spirit might be too familiar with the ones who are praying for her and commanding the spirit to come out of her. Again, a situation of no respect for those ministering. Don't ask God to deliver her or cause the demon to leave. Take the authority of Christ and boldly command it to come out and leave. Apply anointing oil in the name of the Lord.

Some demons only come out by fasting and prayer. The one(s) who are to cast out the spirit may need to spend at least two or three days fasting and praying, not as a ritual, but to sanctify themselves and welcome the presence of the Spirit of the Lord and be focused on Him, and perceive His presence.

[Hamster]

have her parents tried seeking a medical diagnosis?

[FredFlanders]

I see that this spirit usually manifests in your meetings, particularly when you are praying in the Spirit. In a meeting, then, is not the place where she needs to be ministered to. In a private place, with a small group of people who have no fear whatsoever will be a better place. Jesus took one person out of the village where he lived to be able to heal him. Then he told him, "Do not go back into the village." There were probably too many fearful people, faithless people in the village. It is likely true of the church setting. Sorry, but there must be no one present with any fear.

Do not be concerned with the demon's name. Name it yourself a "peeping, muttering spirit" or by some identifying trait you see.

Even Jesus could do no mighty miracles in Nazareth, his hometown, because the people would not think of him as anyone other than the boy they thought they knew who grew up in that town. They would not honor the Holy Spirit that had come upon him after he left Nazareth and was baptized by John in the Jordan River. Such a baptism in the Holy Spirit changes a person into 'another man.' This is what Samuel said to Saul after he was anointed to be the first king of Israel: "You will be changed into another man."

Also, you might need to call in another man with the anointing to cast out demons, or bring her to that person. The spirit might be too familiar with the ones who are praying for her and commanding the spirit to come out of her. Again, a situation of no respect for those ministering. Don't ask God to deliver her or cause the demon to leave. Take the authority of Christ and boldly command it to come out and leave. Apply anointing oil in the name of the Lord.

Some demons only come out by fasting and prayer. The one(s) who are to cast out the spirit may need to spend at least two or three days fasting and praying, not as a ritual, but to sanctify themselves and welcome the presence of the Spirit of the Lord and be focused on Him, and perceive His presence.

Hi Ty,
So far we have done all the above. Many come to our meeting because of the deliverance ministry and one of us does the deliverance full time.
We have spent time one or two of us in private trying to expel the demon many times over long periods of time however we have eventually stopped the session as the manifestations have caused much self inflicted halm to the victim. In other cases we have not had such a fight. Her father had many Egyptian articles and other items in which we have destroyed plus any other item in question from her home. We also believed that the lady was Spirit Filled but now believe that the tongue she prays in is not from the Holy Spirit.
Fasting has been done also but I kind of believe that this may be the key as you say. It is the only scriptual answer I can see at the moment.

[Sparko]

how can a Christian have a demon? Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Do you think God would share his home with a demon?

[TyRockwell]

how can a Christian have a demon? Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Do you think God would share his home with a demon?
It happens. Its a question of darkness and light. Holy Spirit gives light to the house, but there can still be closets with darkness.
In a large house there are many rooms.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

It happens. Its a question of darkness and light. Holy Spirit gives light to the house, but there can still be closets with darkness.
In a large house there are many rooms.

Right, because the power of God is hindered by those pesky house doors.

[John Goddard]

We have found out from her parents that when she was 12 years of age that they visited a museum where there was a Mummy on show and apparently she fell down unexplainably and then told her parents that she felt some thing come inside of her.

Maybe you should look into who ran the museum, not just the mummy in it.

[TyRockwell]

Right, because the power of God is hindered by those pesky house doors.
No, but because your eye can cause you to sin. If so, pluck it out.

The whole body is not possessed by the Holy Spirit when one is saved. "The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord."
Proverbs 20:27
27. The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all the inner depths of his heart.

[Sparko]

It happens. Its a question of darkness and light. Holy Spirit gives light to the house, but there can still be closets with darkness.
In a large house there are many rooms.

cute metaphor but there is no scriptural backing for demons possessing Christians.

If we are indwelt by God, then demons cannot possess what belongs to God. Our house is not empty but filled with the spirit of God, and he protects us.

[John Goddard]

cute metaphor but there is no scriptural backing for demons possessing Christians.

There's a little bit.

2 Corinthians 12:7-8 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

[Sparko]

There's a little bit.

2 Corinthians 12:7-8 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

That's ludicrous. Nowhere does it say that is a demon. And besides, God refused to remove the thorn. So if it was a demon, then God refused to cast it out. That would mean that half of our bible was written by a demon possessed man. Are you sure you want to argue that?

[John Goddard]

That's ludicrous. Nowhere does it say that is a demon. And besides, God refused to remove the thorn. So if it was a demon, then God refused to cast it out. That would mean that half of our bible was written by a demon possessed man. Are you sure you want to argue that?

A messenger of Satan -- usually known as a demon -- buffeted/attacked him, and he had to pray to cast it out three times. That doesn't mean he was possessed all the time, or that he wrote any part of the Bible while possessed. But it's pretty clear he had some trouble with demon attacks.

[Pilgrim]

I think we need $cir's avatar to answer this question...

[Sparko]

A messenger of Satan -- usually known as a demon -- buffeted/attacked him, and he had to pray to cast it out three times. That doesn't mean he was possessed all the time, or that he wrote any part of the Bible while possessed. But it's pretty clear he had some trouble with demon attacks.

He prayed three times for "it" to be removed and it never was. That means he was never relieved and was demon-possessed.

John, the passage is using figures of speech. Most scholars think Paul is referring to his ailing eyesight. a "thorn in the flesh" seems to refer to some physical ailment.

and besides, demon "attacks" are not the same thing as demon possession. Satan can attack us from outside, but he cannot enter us or possess us. and neither can demons.

[Pilgrim]

spot on Sparko.

[Macgawd]

cute metaphor but there is no scriptural backing for demons possessing Christians.

If we are indwelt by God, then demons cannot possess what belongs to God.

Is this supported by Scripture? Where in Scripture does it say that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon?

=M=

[John Goddard]

He prayed three times for "it" to be removed and it never was. That means he was never relieved and was demon-possessed.

John, the passage is using figures of speech. Most scholars think Paul is referring to his ailing eyesight. a "thorn in the flesh" seems to refer to some physical ailment.

and besides, demon "attacks" are not the same thing as demon possession. Satan can attack us from outside, but he cannot enter us or possess us. and neither can demons.

Paul says, "there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

That doesn't imply a physical ailment, he wasn't trying to be a sports hero or something. It implies a spiritual ailment to keep his ego down so he didn't get holier than thou.

If it was a messenger of Satan what sort of message do you think it had?

And why would he only pray three times if it never left? That doesn't make sense. I don't see that it never left. I see that it bothered him when he got too spiritually big for his britches, and left when he got humble again.

[Adrift]

That's ludicrous. Nowhere does it say that is a demon. And besides, God refused to remove the thorn. So if it was a demon, then God refused to cast it out. That would mean that half of our bible was written by a demon possessed man. Are you sure you want to argue that?

Actually, headheart recently pointed out a very interesting discussion with Kevin Lewis, professor of theology at Biola university, on demonology at apologetics.com, and Dr. Lewis explained how that verse is referring to a "messenger=angel". This isn't to say that Paul was possessed (Kevin Lewis doesn't like to use that word anyways, apparently), but that Paul was being targeted by some sort of demonic activity, much in the same way that Michael the archangel was "withstood" for 21 days by the prince of Persia in Daniel 10. Its a very good broadcast (except the second half when Kevin Lewis leaves and the dj's take over the apologetics).
http://www.apologetics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=347:ghosts-hauntings-a-the-demonic-fact-or-fiction&catid=43:kkla-995-fm-los-angeles&Itemid=74

Edit/disclaimer: By the way I don't believe that 4 thousand year old mummies contain demons. Whatever this person is experiencing, it wasn't because of the mummy.

[Sparko]

Is this supported by Scripture? Where in Scripture does it say that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon?

=M=

show me one Christian that is possessed by a demon in the bible.

romans 8:9
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

eph 1:13
3And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 6:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

How can a demon reside in the temple of God? How can God share you with a demon? How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?

use your brain.

[John Goddard]

Actually, headheart recently pointed out a very interesting discussion with Kevin Lewis, professor of theology at Biola university, on demonology at apologetics.com, and Dr. Lewis explained how that verse is referring to a "messenger=angel". This isn't to say that Paul was possessed (Kevin Lewis doesn't like to use that word anyways, apparently), but that Paul was being targeted by some sort of demonic activity, much in the same way that Michael the archangel was "withstood" for 21 days by the prince of Persia in Daniel 10. Its a very good broadcast (except the second half when Kevin Lewis leaves and the dj's take over the apologetics).
http://www.apologetics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=347:ghosts-hauntings-a-the-demonic-fact-or-fiction&catid=43:kkla-995-fm-los-angeles&Itemid=74

As a metaphor, thorns refers to worldly things, starting with Adam's curse. The thorny crown Jesus was made to wear was a symbol of man's carnal understanding of kingdoms, and lack of understanding of the kingdom of Heaven. This is all clarified in Matthew 13:22.

Therefore, Paul's thorn would most likely be his attraction to worldly power within the Church, and God appropriately knocked him down back into place.

Implying some sort of exterior attack paints a picture of ghosts swirling around him attacking him. When really it was all an inside job spiritually.

We might think the term "possession" is distasteful but it doesn't really matter as long as we understand that his problem was spiritual.

It's all the same thing, not a bunch of ghosts attacking the outside of your body.

[John Goddard]

How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?

That's about the same as saying Christians must always be sinless else we have a weak God making room for sin, and thus aren't really Christians. Not realistic.

[Adrift]

As a metaphor, thorns refers to worldly things, starting with Adam's curse. The thorny crown Jesus was made to wear was a symbol of man's carnal understanding of kingdoms, and lack of understanding of the kingdom of Heaven. This is all clarified in Matthew 13:22.

Therefore, Paul's thorn would most likely be his attraction to worldly power within the Church, and God appropriately knocked him down back into place.

Implying some sort of exterior attack paints a picture of ghosts swirling around him attacking him. When really it was all an inside job spiritually.

We might think the term "possession" is distasteful but it doesn't really matter as long as we understand that his problem was spiritual.

It's all the same thing, not a bunch of ghosts attacking the outside of your body.

Well, Kevin explains it this way... essentially he leaves open what the thorn was. It could have been a physical ailment (he doesn't seem to lean that way, but is not totally adverse to it), or it could have been the sufferings he endured which he refers to in the previous chapter. At any rate, Kevin does believe that the nature of the buffeting was certainly demonic in nature. Kevin's take on possession is quite interesting too, he doesn't believe Paul was possessed... as in, his will was taken over. He believes that demons more or less... demonize... You should listen to the broadcast, he explains it far better than i could. He's actually sort of adverse to using the word demonize too.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

There's a little bit.

2 Corinthians 12:7-8 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

No, that was yo lunch...


Seriously, it could also be people that followed in Paul's footsteps and spread hearsay to the churches he helped build, undoing all his good work. It could be anything, really.

[John Goddard]

Well, Kevin explains it this way... essentially he leaves open what the thorn was. It could have been a physical ailment (he doesn't seem to lean that way, but is not totally adverse to it), or it could have been the sufferings he endured which he refers to in the previous chapter. At any rate, Kevin does believe that the nature of the buffeting was certainly demonic in nature. Kevin's take on possession is quite interesting too, he doesn't believe Paul was possessed... as in, his will was taken over. He believes that demons more or less... demonize... You should listen to the broadcast, he explains it far better than i could. He's actually sort of adverse to using the word demonize too.

Ok thanks I'll check it out. This thing I explained just makes most sense to me so far but I'm open to other ideas, it's not a real big issue for me like Trinity or something is.

[Adrift]

Ok thanks I'll check it out. This thing I explained just makes most sense to me so far but I'm open to other ideas, it's not a real big issue for me like Trinity or something is.

Yeah, understood. He actually changed my way of thinking of the subject a bit, to be honest (though one of the stories he relays seems... unlikely to me). Pretty interesting stuff.

[Sparko]

That's about the same as saying Christians must always be sinless else we have a weak God making room for sin, and thus aren't really Christians. Not realistic.


there is a big difference between God living in us and us continuing to sin, and some other spiritual being possessing us and residing in us alongside God.

and why can they be cast out by US commanding them to come out, if God won't even cast them out from the very body he is residing in? Are we more powerful than God? Seems a bit farfetched that God would just let demons live in us along side himself until we decide to cast them out. Sounds kinda weak.

of what purpose is the Holy Spirit living in us for if not to protect us from such things and to lead us and guide us? If some demon is in us leading and guiding us, then the Spirit is not doing his job.

[John Goddard]

there is a big difference between God living in us and us continuing to sin, and some other spiritual being possessing us and residing in us alongside God.

What is the difference, evil is evil. How come you think God is still with you when you are actively sinning?

King Saul had God's Spirit, then it left and an evil spirit bothered him. Then Saul got God's Spirit again and prophesied. 1 Samuel 19.

Paul was just a human too, not a god. What would be the problem with him getting God's Spirit, then being buffeted by an evil spirit, then getting God's Spirit when he became humble again?

and why can they be cast out by US commanding them to come out, if God won't even cast them out from the very body he is residing in? Are we more powerful than God? Seems a bit farfetched that God would just let demons live in us along side himself until we decide to cast them out. Sounds kinda weak.

of what purpose is the Holy Spirit living in us for if not to protect us from such things and to lead us and guide us? If some demon is in us leading and guiding us, then the Spirit is not doing his job.

Well the Spirit doesn't lead you to sin and you still sin sometimes, right? But I take it that it doesn't stay gone forever for you either, when you humble yourself and repent.

There's not like a huge difference between casting out demons and casting out sinful behavior, since Paul is already indicating that his buffeting was caused by the real or potential threat of sinful pride (exalted above measure) as the verse says.

You ever see people on here who start talking delusional thinking they may be prophets or Messiah or something? They seem like they may have a bad spirit right? Well, similar thing, God can allow people to get wacky when they stop glorifying God's Word and start glorifying themselves as something special just because they are preaching it. Then ideally, they get buffeted and knocked down and humbled and back down to earth again.

I've seen it a lot in Christianity over the years, even sometimes on Tweb. You probably have one or two people in mind yourself.

[Sparko]

What is the difference, evil is evil. How come you think God is still with you when you are actively sinning?
because he is in me trying to get me to stop. be kinda hard to cast ME out of my body wouldn't it?


King Saul had God's Spirit, then it left and an evil spirit bothered him. Then Saul got God's Spirit again and prophesied. 1 Samuel 19.

There is no indication that anyone was indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after the crucifixion (pentacost). Jesus said that when he left he would send another counselor to lead and guide us. The indwelling of the Spirit in us is different from the "filling of the spirit" that can come and go. We are always indwelt.


Paul was just a human too, not a god. What would be the problem with him getting God's Spirit, then being buffeted by an evil spirit, then getting God's Spirit when he became humble again?

because the Holy Spirit never leaves us completely.



Well the Spirit doesn't lead you to sin and you still sin sometimes, right? But I take it that it doesn't stay gone forever for you either, when you humble yourself and repent.

There's not like a huge difference between casting out demons and casting out sinful behavior, since Paul is already indicating that his buffeting was caused by the real or potential threat of sinful pride (exalted above measure) as the verse says.

now you are equivocating and moving goal posts in order to squeeze your definition in.



You ever see people on here who start talking delusional thinking they may be prophets or Messiah or something? They seem like they may have a bad spirit right? Well, similar thing, God can allow people to get wacky when they stop glorifying God's Word and start glorifying themselves as something special just because they are preaching it. Then ideally, they get buffeted and knocked down and humbled and back down to earth again.

I've seen it a lot in Christianity over the years, even sometimes on Tweb. You probably have one or two people in mind yourself.

being nuts does not mean they have a demon. It means they have a mental problem.

[John Goddard]

because he is in me trying to get me to stop. be kinda hard to cast ME out of my body wouldn't it?

We arrived to this point in the discussion when you said, "How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?" If you are sinning and God is still in you, then God has moved over to let sin have some room. So you aren't really explaining the difference yet.

You would need to pray to God to cast out either, at that point. Paul had to ask God, he didn't have the power himself to stop the buffeting either.

There is no indication that anyone was indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after the crucifixion (pentacost). Jesus said that when he left he would send another counselor to lead and guide us. The indwelling of the Spirit in us is different from the "filling of the spirit" that can come and go. We are always indwelt. because the Holy Spirit never leaves us completely.

Where does the NT say the Holy Spirit is always with you while you are actively sinning?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If you are actively sinning and not keeping the commandments, then I don't see promise that the Holy Spirit moves over to let sin have some room, never leaving.

I see that if you repent and return back to keeping the commandments, then you get the Holy Spirit again.

now you are equivocating and moving goal posts in order to squeeze your definition in.

I've been consistent all along, you just never explained why God will move over to make room for sin, but not a demon.

being nuts does not mean they have a demon. It means they have a mental problem.

King Saul got an evil spirit he went nutty against David, who at that point had God's Spirit instead and comforted Saul. I see nothing indicating that the good and evil spirits of the OT are any different than those in the NT, or any different than those of today.

[Sparko]

We arrived to this point in the discussion when you said, "How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?" If you are sinning and God is still in you, then God has moved over to let sin have some room. So you aren't really explaining the difference yet.

God is in us to lead us to becoming righteous. He is not there to control us and make us into puppets. Allowing a third party to infiltrate your body, sharing space with the most Holy of Holies, is just beyond incomprehensible. And to claim that we have the power to cast such beings out of someone who apparenty God has already allowed to live there with him makes no sense either.





Where does the NT say the Holy Spirit is always with you while you are actively sinning?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If you are actively sinning and not keeping the commandments, then I don't see promise that the Holy Spirit moves over to let sin have some room, never leaving.

I already posted the verses. Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. We are indwelt by the HS. He is our counselor. How can he counsel us if he runs away every time we sin? We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit. A seal is something that cannot be broken.

I see that if you repent and return back to keeping the commandments, then you get the Holy Spirit again.

right. God comes and runs away again allowing Demons to take us over and control his chosen people. sure. that makes sense.



I've been consistent all along, you just never explained why God will move over to make room for sin, but not a demon.

because a demon is an evil spirit that God cast out of heaven because he didn't want them around him. Why would he live with one in your body?




When King Saul got an evil spirit he went nutty against David, who at that point had God's Spirit instead and comforted Saul. I see nothing indicating that the good and evil spirits of the OT are any different than those in the NT, or any different than those of today.

again, people were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose.

[FredFlanders]

have her parents tried seeking a medical diagnosis?

Yes Hamster,
The lady had seeker help from doctors and mental health earlier on (before coming to us) but this only made her condition worse as medicine and psychological help made her disillusioned and confused. Now she is quite normal now she is off the medicine except when the demon takes over.
Many of our members have had serious mental issues and many have spent time in mental health care but after coming to us they have been delivered from their problems and now live normal lives. We find that the mental problems they have had is caused by demonic activity within them. (the demons live in their flesh and not their soul) We only have deliverance with those that want to follow Jesus as it would be a waste of time casting a demon out of a non believer as they will only return. People with mental health problems are a result of demonic activity and unfortunately they seek doctors for healing and usually they are messed up further when the answer is with Christ Jesus and deliverance.
Some demons leave easier than others however this one has such a strong hold that we need to seek Jesus further on this one.

[FredFlanders]

how can a Christian have a demon? Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Do you think God would share his home with a demon?

Sparko,
I once believed a Christian could not have a demon because that is what religion taught me now I believe differently. We have had many people come to our meetings from other churches who believed this. Their old church's directed them to doctors which did not help their situation what so ever when the answer was within in the Church and Christ Jesus. Now with deliverance they have been totally healed and set free.

[FredFlanders]

Maybe you should look into who ran the museum, not just the mummy in it.

Following the history of the incident the demon appears as if it come from the Mummy. We do believe that demonic spirits can come from a numbers of religious idols. If you do a study on Mummy's you will see why demonic spirit dwell in them.

[FredFlanders]

cute metaphor but there is no scriptural backing for demons possessing Christians.

If we are indwelt by God, then demons cannot possess what belongs to God. Our house is not empty but filled with the spirit of God, and he protects us.

Sparko,
Another question you can ask yourself is why do some Christians still have mental health problems? When you realise that is because of demons then you have the avenue to help them.

[Hamster]

Demons don't cause mental health problems. Nor do they cause bruises or flus.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Sparko,
Another question you can ask yourself is why do some Christians still have mental health problems?

Same reason some are quadriplegic, blind, or...you know....dead. It's called a sick body. There's no reason to see a demon under every rock and dark corner.

[Adrift]

Following the history of the incident the demon appears as if it come from the Mummy. We do believe that demonic spirits can come from a numbers of religious idols. If you do a study on Mummy's you will see why demonic spirit dwell in them.

Is a mummy an idol? Who is worshiping 2 to 4 thousand year old mummies? What purpose would a demon have in an old mummy? Wouldn't they prefer a living host as we see when Jesus cast the demons out of the demoniac into the pigs? This is the same problem I have with the concept that demons hide out in old haunted houses... Why would a demon hang out in a place that's typically abandoned? Doesn't seem like a particularly good use of time. Two things occur to me in these situations. One, either the person being demonized came with spirit that demonized them at such and such location, or two, the demon manifests itself at certain locations in order that those who are looking for something spiritual to happen (ghost hunters) keep looking and never come into a fuller understanding of the truth of Christ Jesus.

I know a woman who practiced in the occult for years, and she was actually deceived into thinking that she was the one in control of the spiritual manifestations she saw in her life, until one day when the same spirits she was playing with showed her their true colors and scared so badly she thought she was going to physically die. It seems probable to me that if the person you're describing is being demonized then it probably started way before her trip to the museum.

The thing about Christians being demonized (again, not necessarily possessed... possession implies something... different (check the link in my first post)) is that we, as Christians, have something that the unbeliever does not. We stand in authority in the name of Christ Jesus.

Also, I don't know your ministry Fred, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm concerned about... the emphasis... maybe... of the ministry? Like, I'm imagining right now some of the churches I've either encountered or seen on video that are completely chaotic and unsound in their attempts to exorcise demons from everyone who walks in the front door. A red flag is going up in my head as you describe the situation. I'm trying not to pass judgment, because I don't know the specifics, but this sounds... off... somehow. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Adrift]

Demons don't cause mental health problems. Nor do they cause bruises or flus.

I disagree. I think that what we sometimes consider mental health issues are in fact some sort of demonization. I don't think that's always the case, but its certainly sometimes the case. And I can think of at least two instances immediately where demons caused bruises on people in scripture.

[Adrift]

In our group of believers we have delivered many from demons but this one will not go. Has any one dealt with some one who has been possessed with a demon that has come from a Mummy? This particular lady now 41 years of age is zealous for Christ yet manifests dramatically during meetings particularly when we are praying in the Spirit. We have found out from her parents that when she was 12 years of age that they visited a museum where there was a Mummy on show and apparently she fell down unexplainably and then told her parents that she felt some thing come inside of her. Today when the manifestations take place it also includes a demonic type of “speaking in tongues” although I know it not to be the Holy Spirit “speaking in tongues” as I am Pentecostal and understand what this is. Over a number of months we have patiently tried to expel the demon but it is a tough one and we have not found the key as yet. The demon will not tell us its name.
Does anyone have knowledge of such “Mummy” demons and can offer some advice to expel the demon?

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot you were looking for advice in this thread. My advice is forget the Mummy. What I would want to know about is her family history and any odd going-ons there. Whatever she's dealing with (demonic or not) may have seemed to have started at the museum, but my money is on something closer to home.

[FredFlanders]

Same reason some are quadriplegic, blind, or...you know....dead. It's called a sick body. There's no reason to see a demon under every rock and dark corner.

BE,
What are we (Christians) to do with some one who is sick?

[Eru Ilúvatar]

BE,
What are we (Christians) to do with some one who is sick?

If you're related, give them medicine or take them to the hospital if it's serious enough; and pray.

What, you think there's a swine flu demon?

[Hamster]

I disagree. I think that what we sometimes consider mental health issues are in fact some sort of demonization. I don't think that's always the case, but its certainly sometimes the case. And I can think of at least two instances immediately where demons caused bruises on people in scripture.

Sorry, I phrased that weird. Demons can cause bruises, mental illness, etc. But bruises and mental illness aren't necessarily caused by demons.

[FredFlanders]

Is a mummy an idol? Who is worshiping 2 to 4 thousand year old mummies? What purpose would a demon have in an old mummy? Wouldn't they prefer a living host as we see when Jesus cast the demons out of the demoniac into the pigs? This is the same problem I have with the concept that demons hide out in old haunted houses... Why would a demon hang out in a place that's typically abandoned? Doesn't seem like a particularly good use of time. Two things occur to me in these situations. One, either the person being demonized came with spirit that demonized them at such and such location, or two, the demon manifests itself at certain locations in order that those who are looking for something spiritual to happen (ghost hunters) keep looking and never come into a fuller understanding of the truth of Christ Jesus.

I know a woman who practiced in the occult for years, and she was actually deceived into thinking that she was the one in control of the spiritual manifestations she saw in her life, until one day when the same spirits she was playing with showed her their true colors and scared so badly she thought she was going to physically die. It seems probable to me that if the person you're describing is being demonized then it probably started way before her trip to the museum.

The thing about Christians being demonized (again, not necessarily possessed... possession implies something... different (check the link in my first post)) is that we, as Christians, have something that the unbeliever does not. We stand in authority in the name of Christ Jesus.

Also, I don't know your ministry Fred, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm concerned about... the emphasis... maybe... of the ministry? Like, I'm imagining right now some of the churches I've either encountered or seen on video that are completely chaotic and unsound in their attempts to exorcise demons from everyone who walks in the front door. A red flag is going up in my head as you describe the situation. I'm trying not to pass judgment, because I don't know the specifics, but this sounds... off... somehow. Maybe I'm wrong though.


Adrift,
The proof of the ministry is in the fruit or results. There are now many who were mentally sick who are now totally healed where no other Christian ministry could help.

[FredFlanders]

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot you were looking for advice in this thread. My advice is forget the Mummy. What I would want to know about is her family history and any odd going-ons there. Whatever she's dealing with (demonic or not) may have seemed to have started at the museum, but my money is on something closer to home.

Adrift,
I am seeking some advice on a controversial matter from those in the know and knew that this subject would get some ridicule. But to some that may be looking for answers with an open mind this thread could help some.

[John Goddard]

Following the history of the incident the demon appears as if it come from the Mummy. We do believe that demonic spirits can come from a numbers of religious idols. If you do a study on Mummy's you will see why demonic spirit dwell in them.

What I'm getting at is was it maybe at a Rosicrucian museum.

[Adrift]

Adrift,
The proof of the ministry is in the fruit or results. There are now many who were mentally sick who are now totally healed where no other Christian ministry could help.

That's sometimes accurate. I've witnessed all sorts of groups of people who get results for a time. Its the long term fruit and results I'm more interested in. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Christian ministry you're in, but I think its only practical to be cautious about these things.

[Adrift]

Adrift,
I am seeking some advice on a controversial matter from those in the know and knew that this subject would get some ridicule. But to some that may be looking for answers with an open mind this thread could help some.

Yes I realize that. That's why I offered the advice I did.

[Adrift]

What I'm getting at is was it maybe at a Rosicrucian museum.

Rosicrucian? :lol:

Wait... were you serious?

[John Goddard]

Allowing a third party to infiltrate your body, sharing space with the most Holy of Holies, is just beyond incomprehensible.

So is allowing sin in there too, but it happens. So what I'm saying is neither demons nor sin shares space with God, God departs until both are cast out.

You aren't attempting to explain why God should live with you sinning but not with demons, when both things are evil.

again, people were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose.

What is the difference between God's Spirit and the Holy Spirit?

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

All I see is that now you have to go through Jesus to get it because he is the appointed mediator, when before it could come directly from God, or from anointing by a prophet who already had it from God.

On this point you seem to be making two different religions and Spirits between the OT and NT, when it should just be one with changing conditions for obtaining it. Which is a reason Jews see it that way too, and reject Christianity as newfangled.

[John Goddard]

Rosicrucian? :lol: Wait... were you serious?

Of course.

The Rosicrucian by Aleister Crowley (http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a_599.pdf)

Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum, San Jose (http://www.egyptianmuseum.org/)

I started researching mysteries of the Kabbalah as a direct result of visits to their museum, and I bit off more than I could chew.

[Adrift]

So is allowing sin in there too, but it happens. So what I'm saying is neither demons nor sin shares space with God, God departs until both are cast out.

You aren't attempting to explain why God should live with you sinning but not with demons, when both things are evil.

Have you listened to that link yet? I think it handles the issue pretty well.


What is the difference between God's Spirit and the Holy Spirit?

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

All I see is that now you have to go through Jesus to get it because he is the appointed mediator, when before it could come directly from God, or from anointing by a prophet who already had it from God.

On this point you seem to be making two different religions and Spirits between the OT and NT, when it should just be one with changing conditions for obtaining it. Which is a reason Jews see it that way too, and reject Christianity as newfangled.

The distinction between the kings, priests and prophets of old and the modern believer is that the Holy Spirit seems to have only come upon those anointed ones for a time, but not for any permanent length of time, but only when God wanted to relay something to his people or perform some sort of work. Jesus said that he had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could be with us forever.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

[John Goddard]

Have you listened to that link yet? I think it handles the issue pretty well.

No I have to be in a patient mood, maybe tomorrow.

The distinction between the kings, priests and prophets of old and the modern believer is that the Holy Spirit seems to have only come upon those anointed ones for a time, but not for any permanent length of time, but only when God wanted to relay something to his people or perform some sort of work. Jesus said that he had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could be with us forever.

Looks to be permanent here with David too:

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward...

But it probably isn't if you sin. The Spirit probably leaves then you have to repent to get it back. Otherwise the doctrine works its way around to no more than buying a ticket to Heaven with your lips not your heart, once saved always saved stuff.

In John there is a qualification that you also do the commandments, if you want the Spirit. So I think I'm right.

[Adrift]

Of course.

The Rosicrucian by Aleister Crowley (http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a_599.pdf)

Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum, San Jose (http://www.egyptianmuseum.org/)

I started researching mysteries of the Kabbalah as a direct result of visits to their museum, and I bit off more than I could chew.

I know what a Rosicrucian is, but how many museums do you know happen to be Rosicrucian? And why does San Jose have a Rosicrucian museum?

[Adrift]

No I have to be in a patient mood, maybe tomorrow.

Okay.

Looks to be permanent here with David too:

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward...

It seemed to come in stints for those before Christ. It wasn't ever a constant indwelling like we see with current saints, but it came upon prophets, Goldy kings and priests at times like I said earlier. For example, turn to 1 Samuel 10:5 where Saul is anointed king.

After that you shall come to Gibeath-elohim, where there is a garrison of the Philistines. And there, as soon as you come to the city, you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and lyre before them, prophesying. 6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will rush upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 7 Now when these signs meet you, do what your hand finds to do, for God is with you. 8 Then go down before me to Gilgal. And behold, I am coming to you to offer burnt offerings and to sacrifice peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, until I come to you and show you what you shall do.”

The Spirit of the Lord wasn't upon Saul all the time obviously, but he was at certain times it appears, and king David probably far more often than Saul since David was a man after God's own heart.

But it probably isn't if you sin. The Spirit probably leaves then you have to repent to get it back.

I don't know any scriptural support for this assumption. Could you point something out we can examine?

Otherwise the doctrine works its way around to no more than buying a ticket to Heaven with your lips not your heart,

I don't see the correlation.

once saved always saved stuff.

What's the problem with once saved always saved? Jesus died once for our sins. Christians aren't saved one day and then the next unsaved, and then the next saved and then the next unsaved. Might as well live under the law if that's the way its going to go down.

In John there is a qualification that you also do the commandments, if you want the Spirit. So I think I'm right.

? I don't think I grasp your meaning. You're talking about the qualification to become a Christian? That you make Jesus your lord which in turn means you keep his commandments that you love God and you love your neighbor upon which all the other commandments hang? Well yeah, you have to be a Christian before you are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. That seems pretty obvious. But the Holy Spirit doesn't depart with every infraction. Christians are usually made up of people, and people tend to be human, and humans tend to make dumb mistakes.

Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does that mean that we have permission to sin so that grace may abound, as Paul says "God Forbid"... still, we're not yo-yos. At least, I'm not. Maybe you're a Christian on odd days and half the weekend, but I'm a Christian 24/7. I mess up. I mess up bad, but I repent and I get back on the right track... that's what Christ followers do.

[John Goddard]

I know what a Rosicrucian is, but how many museums do you know happen to be Rosicrucian? And why does San Jose have a Rosicrucian museum?

I just told Fred to check into it, since I don't believe mummies have special powers. People who delve into the type of Egyptian magic that countered Moses may know something about it though.

I don't know why the museum is in San Jose. Or why San Jose is the heart of Silicon Valley. Or why I am telling you this on a computer right now. That's just the way it is until someone sheds more light on it.

[John Goddard]

I don't think I grasp your meaning.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So in all this does it say if you sin and do not keep the commandments, the Spirit will stay with you always, and Jesus will be manifest to you always, and they will abide with you always? I don't see it.

I don't know where you guys get that from, do you have any NT verses that say once you have the Spirit you always have it?

So that it will be something entirely different than what happened in the OT.

[Adrift]

I just told Fred to check into it, since I don't believe mummies have special powers. People who delve into the type of Egyptian magic that countered Moses may know something about it though.

I don't know why the museum is in San Jose. Or why San Jose is the heart of Silicon Valley. Or why I am telling you this on a computer right now. That's just the way it is until someone sheds more light on it.

interesting

[Sparko]

Sparko,
I once believed a Christian could not have a demon because that is what religion taught me now I believe differently. We have had many people come to our meetings from other churches who believed this. Their old church's directed them to doctors which did not help their situation what so ever when the answer was within in the Church and Christ Jesus. Now with deliverance they have been totally healed and set free.

and what is it that keeps the demon from coming back?

[Sparko]

Sparko,
Another question you can ask yourself is why do some Christians still have mental health problems? When you realise that is because of demons then you have the avenue to help them.

they have mental problems the same reason they have physical problems and illnesses, the same reason we grow old and die. We are still fallen creatures, imperfect bodies and minds. We won't be delivered from our ailments until we receive our glorified bodies.

[Sparko]

So is allowing sin in there too, but it happens. So what I'm saying is neither demons nor sin shares space with God, God departs until both are cast out.

You aren't attempting to explain why God should live with you sinning but not with demons, when both things are evil.'

wait... so you are saying that demons can cast God out of you?

Dang. those are some powerful demons.



What is the difference between God's Spirit and the Holy Spirit?

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

All I see is that now you have to go through Jesus to get it because he is the appointed mediator, when before it could come directly from God, or from anointing by a prophet who already had it from God.

On this point you seem to be making two different religions and Spirits between the OT and NT, when it should just be one with changing conditions for obtaining it. Which is a reason Jews see it that way too, and reject Christianity as newfangled.

being indwelt is not the same thing as being filled with the Holy Spirit. Indwelt is forever.

I am pretty tired of repeating myself John. You know my position and I know yours. Your idea of God as someone afraid of demons is noted.

This conversation is done.

[John Goddard]

they have mental problems the same reason they have physical problems and illnesses, the same reason we grow old and die. We are still fallen creatures, imperfect bodies and minds. We won't be delivered from our ailments until we receive our glorified bodies.

What happened to the demons in the Gospels, like the Legion? Did they retire to Florida or do you think they still bother people?

Are you afraid people will think you're crazy if you admit demons exist?

being indwelt is not the same thing as being filled with the Holy Spirit. Indwelt is forever...This conversation is done.

My conversation with Adrift indicates otherwise. But if you can't explain differences I asked about then I guess we're done.

[Adrift]

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So in all this does it say if you sin and do not keep the commandments, the Spirit will stay with you always, and Jesus will be manifest to you always, and they will abide with you always? I don't see it.

I do, but that's because I read more than one verse out of the Bible and form a doctrine around it.

I don't know where you guys get that from, do you have any NT verses that say once you have the Spirit you always have it?

I think you just quoted a couple actually, but if you insist this seems to help solve the matter:

but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God l through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Again, you may be fine with being a yo-yo on a string. Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit one day, next day regular Joe, next day Christian with indwelling Holy spirit, next day rank unbeliever. That's not for me, and that doesn't seem to line up with mine nor the typical understanding of scripture.

So that it will be something entirely different than what happened in the OT.

Well of course. Jesus did no small thing by dieing on the cross and resurrecting again. He changed the whole order of things.

[John Goddard]

I do, but that's because I read more than one verse out of the Bible and form a doctrine around it.
I think you just quoted a couple actually, but if you insist this seems to help solve the matter:

but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God l through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Well of course. Jesus did no small thing by dieing on the cross and resurrecting again. He changed the whole order of things.

That's all about the sacrifice Jesus made and what he did.

It doesn't say anything about the Spirit never leaving you if you don't do what you are supposed to do.

What other verses do you form that doctrine around, since these don't address what we're talking about.

[Adrift]

That's all about the sacrifice Jesus made and what he did.

It doesn't say anything about the Spirit never leaving you if you don't do what you are supposed to do.

What other verses do you form that doctrine around, since these don't address what we're talking about.

Sure they do. Anyways we see reference after reference of what happens to people when they make Jesus Lord in their lives:

Romans 5:5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thess 4:38 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

2 Tim 1:14 By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.

In fact, the only case I can find for losing the Holy Spirit is when the Christian commits total and absolute apostasy as seen in Hebrews 6:4

"For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt"

So what do you have to support your reading? Let's compare.

[FredFlanders]

What I'm getting at is was it maybe at a Rosicrucian museum.

Thanks John,
I understand what you mean now. I believe the exhibition was a visiting display of Egyptian items to a major Museum here in Melbourne and was exhibited for a month or so.

[FredFlanders]

If you're related, give them medicine or take them to the hospital if it's serious enough; and pray.

What, you think there's a swine flu demon?

OK,
Another question.What do you think Jesus meant when he said that beleivers would cast out devils/demons. Mark 16. And yes I beleive sickness can be cast out.

[FredFlanders]

and what is it that keeps the demon from coming back?

A demon can have legal access because of unrepentant sin, fear or trauma. Many are hidden so going back into the victims past cast mostly reveal the access point and once this is established the access point can be closed through repentance and the demon cast out. Unforgiveness canbe one of the major reasons and many believers still carry around major bitterness.

[FredFlanders]

they have mental problems the same reason they have physical problems and illnesses, the same reason we grow old and die. We are still fallen creatures, imperfect bodies and minds. We won't be delivered from our ailments until we receive our glorified bodies.

Ok,
Why are we told to put on the whole armour of God? Why are we told we can cast out demons? Why are we told to lay hands on the sick?

[Matt M]

Is the woman herself aware of her own 'manifestations?'

[John Goddard]

So what do you have to support your reading? Let's compare.

So far it is John 14:16-23 doing the commandments in order to have manifestation, which implies to me that if you don't do them you won't have it.

This is a problem though:

First it was not being able to be explained why God would continue to dwell with you in sin but not with a demon, if evil is evil.

Second is, you ask what's the problem with once saved always saved, when Hebrews seems to be saying you can be saved at some point but then lose it. Arguments that you probably never were a Christian or had the Spirit in the first place if you fall away are also inconsistent with this.

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt"

I am inclined to interpret this as, it is impossible for other men to restore the fallen to repentance, but with God all things are possible.

Since if some can have the Spirit like some former Christians here, but fall away into unbelief...if you tell them it is impossible to repent no matter what, aren't you pretty much saying they are damned to Hell no matter what? While it might create a yo-yo condition for you, saying that someone can have the Spirit, fall out of Christianity, then repent again with God's help, seems just a little more hopeful.

Unless this is just talking about outright blasphemy and denial some fundy atheists are into, then I would agree it pertains to what is explained in Matthew 12:31-33.

But like I said I'm open to thinking about it more and will look at your link soon.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

OK,
Another question.What do you think Jesus meant when he said that beleivers would cast out devils/demons. Mark 16. And yes I beleive sickness can be cast out.

Well, gee, it appears that He said they would cast out demons.

Now, when are you going to get around to the point of proving whether or not a sickness is demonic or not?

[Adrift]

So far it is John 14:16-23 doing the commandments in order to have manifestation, which implies to me that if you don't do them you won't have it.

I don't think it implies that at all, and the other verses I quoted seem to confirm the standard reading. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit til the day of redemption. What John 14:16-23 seems to imply is that one must be Christ followers to even have the indwelling Holy Spirit to begin with. Natural men cannot receive it.

There's no mention at all, that I know of in the Bible, that if you sin the Holy Spirit leaves Christians and undoes what Christ did in the believer (with the exception of complete and utter apostasy as I pointed out already). Now, some may call themselves Christian, but are not because they refuse to make Jesus Lord in their lives. These people never had the Holy Spirit to begin with.

This is a problem though:

First it was not being able to be explained why God would continue to dwell with you in sin but not with a demon, if evil is evil.

I think the link I provided carries some explanation for this. It doesn't really get that deep into it, but its a start.

Second is, you ask what's the problem with once saved always saved, when Hebrews seems to be saying you can be saved at some point but then lose it.

Yes, but this seems to be under severe circumstances of total apostasy and blasphemy.

Arguments that you probably never were a Christian or had the Spirit in the first place if you fall away are also inconsistent with this.

I don't argue that, though I'll keep my mind open to that possibility if it can be substantiated.

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt"

I am inclined to interpret this as, it is impossible for other men to restore the fallen to repentance, but with God all things are possible.

That doesn't seem to be the implication there or in the following verse:

For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

That doesn't sound like someone God is going to restore anytime soon.

Since if some can have the Spirit like some former Christians here, but fall away into unbelief...if you tell them it is impossible to repent no matter what, aren't you pretty much saying they are damned to Hell no matter what? While it might create a yo-yo condition for you, saying that someone can have the Spirit, fall out of Christianity, then repent again with God's help, seems just a little more hopeful.

First of all, I'm not the judge of the apostate. It seems to me only God can judge that soul. And I don't think this is talking about people who backslide or have doubts, and then come back into center, I think this is about people who are totally unrepentant and who are probably actively harming the church in some way (bears thorns and thistles).

Unless this is just talking about outright blasphemy and denial some fundy atheists are into, then I would agree it pertains to what is explained in Matthew 12:31-33.

Yes, I agree.

But like I said I'm open to thinking about it more and will look at your link soon.

okay.

[John Goddard]

There's no mention at all, that I know of in the Bible, that if you sin the Holy Spirit leaves Christians and undoes what Christ did in the believer (with the exception of complete and utter apostasy as I pointed out already).

Putting aside the other issues for a minute....

Here we start out with a Church member being a brother in the Spirit, then he sins:

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Then finally it seems at this point of dealing with sinners in the Church, you cast the man out and shun him as if he was never a Christian brother with the Spirit:

Matthew 18:17-18 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

So what if you get to this point and a few years passes, and the man repents. Do you think he can ever become a Christian with the Spirit again?

Or do you see it differently?

[Adrift]

Putting aside the other issues for a minute....

Here we start out with a Church member being a brother in the Spirit, then he sins:

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Then finally it seems at this point of dealing with sinners in the Church, you cast the man out and shun him as if he was never a Christian brother with the Spirit:

Matthew 18:17-18 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

So what if you get to this point and a few years passes, and the man repents. Do you think he can ever become a Christian with the Spirit again?

Or do you see it differently?

I think you're grasping because those verses say nothing about the condition of the indwelling Holy Spirit in that brother. The use of the word brother also seems to indicate that this person is still part of what social anthropologist would call the "in-group", so this verse seems to be referring to wayward disciples not complete apostates. I could be wrong, but that appears to be the more accurate reading.

[John Goddard]

I think you're grasping because those verses say nothing about the condition of the indwelling Holy Spirit in that brother. The use of the word brother also seems to indicate that this person is still part of what social anthropologist would call the "in-group", so this verse seems to be referring to wayward disciples not complete apostates. I could be wrong, but that appears to be the more accurate reading.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I'm not sure what you mean -- you start out brothers in the Spirit, being adopted by God as His fellow sons into the Church.

But your brother sins and eventually you are to treat him as a heathen -- as a complete apostate -- who is no longer a brother in the Spirit.

So the main question is, do you treat him like a heathen forever even if he repents a few years down the road? Or do you forgive him 70 x 7 and accept him as your brother again?

[Adrift]

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I'm not sure what you mean -- you start out brothers in the Spirit, being adopted by God as His fellow sons into the Church.

But your brother sins and eventually you are to treat him as a heathen -- as a complete apostate -- who is no longer a brother in the Spirit.

We may have to treat him as..., but is he? The ESV translates that verse like this. let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Now, if Jesus is talking here initially to a Jewish audience, then obviously the sinning brother doesn't turn into a Gentile, and sin obviously doesn't make one a tax collector, but these sinners are to be treated as such.

John, you clearly have to read into these verses your assumption in order to reach your definite conclusion, and then you still have to account for other verses that read that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption.

So the main question is, do you treat him like a heathen forever even if he repents a few years down the road? Or do you forgive him 70 x 7 and accept him as your brother again?

Well the answer seems to be clear from the following verse that you do indeed forgive those who repent.

[TyRockwell]

cute metaphor but there is no scriptural backing for demons possessing Christians.

If we are indwelt by God, then demons cannot possess what belongs to God. Our house is not empty but filled with the spirit of God, and he protects us.
God's protection, and other blessings are not automatic. This is why it says, "The just shall live by his faith." (Habbakuk 2:4)
God also says, "My people perish for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6)
The indwelling is separate from the filling, just as John 20:22-23 is separate from Acts 2:4
John 20:22-23
22. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Fifty days later, Acts 2:4 happened:
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

It is clear that you have no working knowledge of expelling demons and the ministry of deliverance.

[Pilgrim]

You're really reaching Ty. You start with your understanding then back track to scripture. This is eisegesis. You are forcing your apriori into scripture and scripture taken out of context at that. Yes, it's sort of romantic to see ourselves as the demon battling faithful but to get to where you are you have to really twist scripture and force convoluted interpretations upon it.

[TyRockwell]

Thanks John,
I understand what you mean now. I believe the exhibition was a visiting display of Egyptian items to a major Museum here in Melbourne and was exhibited for a month or so.
Since the source of the spirit is Egypt, It is likely you are dealing with a demonic principality of Egypt, a religious spirit having to do with Egyptian religions and strong enough to influence the Pharoahs in governing Egypt.

It would be a good idea to be sure you command the entity out "in the name that is given to Jesus that is above every name." That would be YHWH, called "Yahway" in English.

[Pilgrim]

Where is $scir when you need him...

[Gabby]

Better make sure you speak in Arabic cause it might not understand English.

[TyRockwell]

You're really reaching Ty. You start with your understanding then back track to scripture. This is eisegesis. You are forcing your apriori into scripture and scripture taken out of context at that. Yes, it's sort of romantic to see ourselves as the demon battling faithful but to get to where you are you have to really twist scripture and force convoluted interpretations upon it.
There is nothing twisted or convoluted about what I explained. You are being defensive of your belief that there is no difference between the indwelling Holy Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit.
Jesus told already saved people that they would be "endued with power from on high" when the Holy Spirit came UPON them, in Acts 1:8

I would like to hear how you would 'exegete' the relationship of the Holy Spirit to John 20:22-23 as compared to Acts 2:4.
Don't just criticize, back up your denial of my explanation with your own explanation. I don't think you can, because you have too much religion invested in believing the way you do. Like I said, you are defensive.

[Pilgrim]

Very good point there Gabs. I mean how can we really expect an Egyptian demon to understand commands given in English. :nod:

[Pilgrim]

There is nothing twisted or convoluted about what I explained. You are bgeing defensive of your belief that there is no difference bewtween the indwelling Holy Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit.
Jesus told already saved people that they would be "endued with power from on high" when the Holy Spirit came UPON them.

I would like to hear how you would 'exegete' the relationship of the Holy Spirit to John 20:22-23 as compared to Acts 2:4.
Don't just criticize, back up your denial of my explanation with your own explanation. I don't think you can, because you have too much religion invested in believing the way you do. Like I said, you are defensive.

Ty, the day I ever see you admit that you are wrong around here is the day you will have just barely enough credibility to challenge someone else having "to much religion invested in believing the way you do."

[TyRockwell]

Ty, the day I ever see you admit that you are wrong around here is the day you will have just barely enough credibility to challenge someone else having "to much religion invested in believing the way you do."
This thread is to help FredFlanders in a very important matter involving the life and spirit of a woman in his fellowship. It is not for you to barge in here with a religious, back-biting, faultfinding attitude. Can't you see how important it is to not be divisive? I'm not asking you to admit you are wrong. I'm asking you to consider the seriousness of the subject, and don't insert unhelpful barbs.

[Vivian]

Since the source of the spirit is Egypt, It is likely you are dealing with a demonic principality of Egypt, a religious spirit having to do with Egyptian religions and strong enough to influence the Pharoahs in governing Egypt.

It would be a good idea to be sure you command the entity out "in the name that is given to Jesus that is above every name." That would be YHWH, called "Yahway" in English.


Yes, simply speaking Hebraic names can cause demons to depart.

One that I have found that works is Yeshua Messiah...pronounced YA HE SHOE AH MEZ CEA. Say it repeatedly with faith and strength.


Shalom.

Viv

[Pilgrim]

This thread is to help FredFlanders in a very important matter involving the life and spirit of a woman in his fellowship. It is not for you to barge in here with a religious, back-biting, faultfinding attitude. Can't you see how important it is to not be divisive? I'm not asking you to admit you are wrong. I'm asking you to consider the seriousness of the subject, and don't insert unhelpful barbs.

Oh ok, because that's really your special gift right? :ahem:

[TyRockwell]

Yes, simply speaking Hebraic names can cause demons to depart.

One that I have found that works is Yeshua Messiah...pronounced YA HE SHOE AH MEZ CEA. Say it repeatedly with faith and strength.


Shalom.

Viv
I don't really think the language is that important, but the authority of the Name matters. That is why I was suggesting invoking the highest Name that can be named. And yes, I agree with you that boldness, strength and faith is essential to lay hold of the Spirit of power of the Name.

[TyRockwell]

Oh ok, because that's really your special gift right? :ahem:
Get your priorities right.

[Pilgrim]

I could say the same as you. Seems you're more interested in being cast as the great spirit warrior than realizing that perhaps what this young lady needs is God's gift of medical treatment. Far too many people have been damaged by bad theology bread by people's desire to see themselves as "spirit warriors."

Sparko is right on. The temple of God will not tolerate any resident other than the Spirit of God.

[Vivian]

I don't really think the language is that important, but the authority of the Name matters. That is why I was suggesting invoking the highest Name that can be named. And yes, I agree with you that boldness, strength and faith is essential to lay hold of the Spirit of power of the Name.

I have found that different Hebraic intonations (hence the reason for different pronunciations of YHWH) result in different energies, but hey whatever works. Whatever causes the unwanted presence to depart is what we will keep returning to when exorcising.


Shalom.

Viv

[TyRockwell]

I could say the same as you. Seems you're more interested in being cast as the great spirit warrior than realizing that perhaps what this young lady needs is God's gift of medical treatment. Far too many people have been damaged by bad theology bread by people's desire to see themselves as "spirit warriors."

Sparko is right on. The temple of God will not tolerate any resident other than the Spirit of God.
I am posting in response to Fred's request. His OP had to do with a demon. I think the medical avenue is usually considered first, then the demonic.

I have been in cessationist church meetings where someone who had simply fallen under the power of the Holy Spirit was carried out to an ambulance. It was totally unnecessary and disruptive of what the Holy Spirit was doing. And yes, the Holy Spirit can be interrupted. God is all powerful, but He does demand respect.

[Sparko]

Better make sure you speak in Arabic cause it might not understand English.

:rofl:

==========
Fred, don't listen to Ty. He tried to exorcise me from a tweb thread one time and it didn't work.

I think it might have failed because he didn't use the right spelling and didn't know my secret name.

[TyRockwell]

:rofl:

==========
Fred, don't listen to Ty. He tried to exorcise me from a tweb thread one time and it didn't work.
There is nothing in that statement to brag about. You should not be proud that your behaviour was so bad, and mocking and mean it seemed like a demon. Then again, maybe you do have a demon, and if you want to keep it, you will keep it.

[John Goddard]

We may have to treat him as..., but is he? The ESV translates that verse like this. let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Now, if Jesus is talking here initially to a Jewish audience, then obviously the sinning brother doesn't turn into a Gentile, and sin obviously doesn't make one a tax collector, but these sinners are to be treated as such.

But Jesus commended faith of Gentiles and the door was wide open to them by the time of Acts 15, so I think "heathen" is a better term.

John, you clearly have to read into these verses your assumption in order to reach your definite conclusion, and then you still have to account for other verses that read that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption.

I'm just saying Gentiles aren't necessarily sinners in the NT. Heathen and apostates are. I don't think you can argue the implications away so easily just by translating "heathen" as "Gentiles."

[Sparko]

There is nothing in that statement to brag about. You should not be proud that your behaviour was so bad, and mocking and mean it seemed like a demon. Then again, maybe you do have a demon, and if you want to keep it, you will keep it.

yep. could be. maybe you should exorcise me again?

[Adrift]

But Jesus commended faith of Gentiles and the door was wide open to them by the time of Acts 15, so I think "heathen" is a better term.



I'm just saying Gentiles aren't necessarily sinners in the NT. Heathen and apostates are. I don't think you can argue the implications away so easily just by translating "heathen" as "Gentiles."

The word here is ethnikos, which is translated foreigner, gentile, pagan, heathen. Anyways, you've apparently missed the point and seem to be nitpicking. The fact of the matter is that these verses say nothing about the individuals indwelling Holy Spirit. There's just not enough data here for you to form any sort of doctrine around this, and you still have to ignore all of the other scripture that was quoted in my previous posts.

[John Goddard]

The word here is ethnikos, which is translated foreigner, gentile, pagan, heathen. Anyways, you've apparently missed the point and seem to be nitpicking. The fact of the matter is that these verses say nothing about the individuals indwelling Holy Spirit. There's just not enough data here for you to form any sort of doctrine around this, and you still have to ignore all of the other scripture that was quoted in my previous posts.

Well, ideally we should use that model to confront sinners: first one on one, then with a few, then tell the whole Church. I think a lot of churches use that model too. So we ought to have some kind of doctrine about it.

It's important to know who you are dealing with. What is the difference between someone who has departed from Christianity, as opposed to a wayward Christian? Nothing. Unless Christians get vacation time from the boss upstairs to go sin a little, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas type of stuff. :ahem: I don't really think so.

So I think you are being a little lukewarm about it.

I think the solid answer is, when you sin you cease being a Christian and having the Spirit, and when you repent you start all over again at the bottom, like a baby Christian.

[Adrift]

Well, ideally we should use that model to confront sinners: first one on one, then with a few, then tell the whole Church. I think a lot of churches use that model too. So we ought to have some kind of doctrine about it.

It's important to know who you are dealing with. What is the difference between someone who has departed from Christianity, as opposed to a wayward Christian? Nothing. Unless Christians get vacation time from the boss upstairs to go sin a little, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas type of stuff. :ahem: I don't really think so.

So I think you are being a little lukewarm about it.

I think the solid answer is, when you sin you cease being a Christian and having the Spirit, and when you repent you start all over again at the bottom, like a baby Christian.

You're just being silly now. If you've read Paul's epistles, especially Romans, you'd know that. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. We are children of God. Fellow heirs with Christ. Jesus delivers us from the body of death. We are to put off the old man. We are to put on the mind of Christ. Jesus died once for all time. All of these things are clearly spelled out in the scriptures. I think you know that, I think you're either playing devil's advocate at this point or you've simply forgotten what the Bible says about this (assuming you've read and understood the portions of scripture dealing with this). If you do actually believe being a Christian is like being on a yo-yo, then I pity you. You must live in a constant state of fear that with the next slip up you could die and go to hell. I'm telling you, that's not the case.

[Gatsby]

I am sorry but I have never heard such rubbish. There is obviously some in your congregation who should not be casting out anything , let along so called demons.

I find this whole mummy incident rather odd. I can also assure you that the young girl who was 12 at the time of this so called incident would not have felt something enetering her. This is all coming from the girls mind and nowhere else. Because there is a beleif in demons and so forth and all the dealings of the dark souls, then it is easy for the impresionable mind to 'hypnotise' itself.

My advice is to take this lady to see a psychiatrist or at least someone who knows what Spirit really is, ie a spiritualist who will do a excorcism if the lady is 'possesed'. if this is as true as we are led to beleive, no matter how it has come about, I do hope all is well with this lady in the future.

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

You're just being silly now. If you've read Paul's epistles, especially Romans, you'd know that. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. We are children of God. Fellow heirs with Christ. Jesus delivers us from the body of death. We are to put off the old man. We are to put on the mind of Christ. Jesus died once for all time. All of these things are clearly spelled out in the scriptures. I think you know that, I think you're either playing devil's advocate at this point or you've simply forgotten what the Bible says about this (assuming you've read and understood the portions of scripture dealing with this). If you do actually believe being a Christian is like being on a yo-yo, then I pity you. You must live in a constant state of fear that with the next slip up you could die and go to hell. I'm telling you, that's not the case.

I believe in Purgatory so there's not a fear factor. But I think you are either a Christian living as a Christian, or you aren't. If you die unrepentant of sin then I think you have to do time in Purgatory.

I think your way again buys a ticket to Heaven and encourages Christian leaders to get pompous and sinful to think, why ever repent if you are always saved?

Jesus died obeying God so he can be worthy as the Judge to give you mercy if you repent. Not to spray you with blood like magic to forgive your sins for all time no matter what you do, even if you don't repent.

That's a reason why Jews hate the usual Christian doctrine, it makes no sense and seems pagan.

[Vivian]

Yes, there is a lot of the pagan religions that was integrated with what we know as Christianity today. Some of it is useful and some of it is not.

What most do not seem to realize is that all negative thought, action - all sin - is demonic. And so our desires and passions (and fears!) have to be crucified, for it is through these that the demonic outside of us makes its way into us, leading us into deeper negativity.

So all negativity - all anger, all envy, all gluttony, all depression, etc - has demonic attributes and those walking the path do indeed gain the gift of exorcism, so that they might remove such influences from themselves and others, as well as spiritual seeing and wisdom which allows them to discern between the demonic and angelic presences and influences affected all of humanity.

But this knowing is largely absent from what many of us call the 'outer church' which can be likened to the 'outer court of the temple'. Meaning most people calling themselves Christians have not developed sufficiently to receive these 'priestly gifts'.

Shalom.

Viv

[Adrift]

I believe in Purgatory so there's not a fear factor. But I think you are either a Christian living as a Christian, or you aren't. If you die unrepentant of sin then I think you have to do time in Purgatory.

I think your way again buys a ticket to Heaven and encourages Christian leaders to get pompous and sinful to think, why ever repent if you are always saved?

Because a Christian is one who makes Christ Lord. Any sort of person who walks around knowingly unrepentant of sins they've committed are obviously not making Christ Jesus first and have put something else Lord in his place. Thus, they were either never Christian to begin with or are completely backslidden and should be treated like "gentiles and tax collectors".

Jesus died obeying God so he can be worthy as the Judge to give you mercy if you repent. Not to spray you with blood like magic to forgive your sins for all time no matter what you do, even if you don't repent.

I assume this is your take on the end of Hebrews 7

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Your reading is very unusual because first it says that we are saved to the uttermost, and it says that Jesus offered sacrifice once for all time not for sin daily. You're also accusing me (or Christianity in general) of two things that I've never argued. First you say that somehow I'm implying Jesus is doing some sort of magic, and secondly that somehow I believe that one can call themselves Christian and yet live unrepentant lives. I don't believe either of these things, I believe what the Bible says. That Jesus fulfilled the law and became the perfect and final sacrifice for those who believe on him. That those who make Christ lord are saved. That because our flesh is weak we humans will, on occasion do what we shouldn't and don't do what we should. That because we no longer live under the curse of the law there is no condemnation in Christ. That our aim should always be perfection/completeness and we should desire to put on the mind of Christ. That we should not take God's grace for granted if we truly mean what we say when we say we believe in Jesus. That we are new creations in Christ Jesus. That we have the Holy Spirit sealed within us.

It seems to me that your biggest issue here may be that you don't know what the word "Lord" means or what it means to make Jesus Lord. A Christian who doesn't make Jesus lord is not a Christian to begin with, and if they do make Jesus lord then they will have the desire to repent of wrong doing. It all comes full circle.

That's a reason why Jews hate the usual Christian doctrine, it makes no sense and seems pagan.

I'm glad you have a passion for the Jews, but its no surprise that so many hate Christianity. This was prophesied, and it was just as true in the time of the first church as it is today.

As for purgatory, scripture is quiet on it, and the closest thing to purgatory seems to have been done away with as far as I can tell.

[John Goddard]

Because a Christian is one who makes Christ Lord. Any sort of person who walks around knowingly unrepentant of sins they've committed are obviously not making Christ Jesus first and have put something else Lord in his place.

What do you say about Peter walking around denying Jesus as Lord three times? Was Peter not a Christian as he was doing that? Was he a Christian before he did it?

I assume this is your take on the end of Hebrews 7

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Your reading is very unusual because first it says that we are saved to the uttermost, and it says that Jesus offered sacrifice once for all time not for sin daily.

We have to go back to why.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So working your way back, is there mercy with no repentance? No. So what does Jesus sacrifice if you sin daily without repentance?

Nothing.

Jesus sacrificed himself so he can be made worthy through obedience as the Judge who gives you mercy IF you repent every time you sin.

And that's all it ever says.

Nothing about being the supreme human sacrifice and whipping boy so everyone else can do what they please. That's nonsense.

[headheart]

Meaning most people calling themselves Christians have not developed sufficiently to receive these 'priestly gifts'.

Shalom.

Viv

Hi Viv,
You may have a point there. A Christian, or follower of Jesus is to live a holy and pure life, so that we are able to be used by the Lord God conduits of the gifts of the HOLY Spirit.
We should probably renounce all the detestable things that are referred to in Deuteronomy 18:9 !
Derek Prince's sermons about 'War on Earth' (http://churchinthenet.blogspot.com/2009/06/demonization-war-on-earth.html)really woke me !
Only once were really get serious about praying, can we even begin to have an experience that matches our Theology. :pray:

Shalom,
HH.

[headheart]

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

[QUOTE]
'The word converted means turned, changed, recovered. The meaning is, when thou art turned from this sin, when thou art recovered from this heinous offence, then use your experience to warn and strengthen those who are in danger of like sins. A man may be converted or turned from any sin, or any evil course. He is regenerated but once--at the beginning of his Christian life; he may be converted as often as he fails into sin.'
Barnes.A.

Sincerely,
HH.

[Adrift]

What do you say about Peter walking around denying Jesus as Lord three times?

Well technically, Peter didn't deny that Jesus was his lord specifically. He denied knowing Jesus out of fear.

Was Peter not a Christian as he was doing that? Was he a Christian before he did it?

No, the disciples weren't called Christians until they went to Antioch, and Peter wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost. From there we see a renewed Peter. One who is not afraid to call Jesus lord and proclaiming that loudly.

We have to go back to why.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So working your way back, is there mercy with no repentance? No. So what does Jesus sacrifice if you sin daily without repentance?

Nothing.

Who said anything about sinning daily without repentance? I don't get how you're hung up on this. It's almost like you're not reading anything I'm writing. Where's the disconnect here?

Jesus sacrificed himself so he can be made worthy through obedience as the Judge who gives you mercy IF you repent every time you sin.

Jesus was made worthy through obedience, yes. And he is the judge who shows mercy, yes. His sacrifice goes deeper than this, and this is clearly outlined throughout the scriptures. I know you know this. What the Bible goes on to say is that we are to live after the Spirit and not after the flesh and that through the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body. And

For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

How many fathers do you know disown their children every time their children disobey?

And that's all it ever says.

Nothing about being the supreme human sacrifice and whipping boy so everyone else can do what they please. That's nonsense.

Strawman. Not my argument. Take it up with someone who is arguing that.

[Sparko]

I think the solid answer is, when you sin you cease being a Christian and having the Spirit, and when you repent you start all over again at the bottom, like a baby Christian.

So you think that demons can come in and cause you to lose your salvation until you repent, then the cycle starts all over again?

Jesus said that no one can snatch his sheep from his hand. And that would include demons. He said we have eternal life and shall never perish. We can't be saved one minute and unsaved the next. Once we belong to Jesus, we belong to him for eternity. he says "I GIVE" them eternal life. Not "I WILL give them eternal life" - it is present tense. We have eternal life starting NOW.



John 10:
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-26500d)]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Satan, Demons, other people, even the person themselves, NO ONE can snatch us from the Hand of God. We HAVE eternal life and will never perish.

(PS, as you are a nontrinitarian, notice that Jesus first says "out of my hand" and then "out of my Father's hand" and then says he and the Father are one. ONE HAND. )

[Pilgrim]

yep. could be. maybe you should exorcise me again?

This time he'd have to speak in pirate of course...

[headheart]

This time he'd have to speak in pirate of course...

65303

"Did you say P I R A T E ?"

[headheart]

(PS, as you are a nontrinitarian, notice that Jesus first says "out of my hand" and then "out of my Father's hand" and then says he and the Father are one. ONE HAND. )

I'm wondering if heresy opens one up to demonization.... 1 Timothy 4:1 ? ( doctrines of demons ) I am thinking of the idea of one brother, bring more brothers and so on. The lying spirit that teaches things contrary to sound doctrine, and that which is in accordance with Scripture. This really does open up Pandora's ...or rather Davey Jones' Locker.

:eek:

HH.

[Macgawd]

show me one Christian that is possessed by a demon in the bible.

Show me where the Bible says that all Christians, and by extension, all things experienced by all Christians are denoted within its pages? The premise of your argument is faulty, in that you assume (wrongly) that the Bible constitutes the entirety of Christ's revelation, and is the summation of all things possible within the realm of Christian theology. It is a self-refuting argument, Sparko.

How can a demon reside in the temple of God? How can God share you with a demon? How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?

By your reasoning then, a Christian cannot commit sin. Since this is not true, your argument fails. Why don't you use your brain?

=M=

[Bernie]

It happens. Its a question of darkness and light. Holy Spirit gives light to the house, but there can still be closets with darkness.
In a large house there are many rooms.
Amen. We are indeed a multiplicity.

[FredFlanders]

That's sometimes accurate. I've witnessed all sorts of groups of people who get results for a time. Its the long term fruit and results I'm more interested in. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Christian ministry you're in, but I think its only practical to be cautious about these things.

Adrift,
I understand what you mean and thought the same as you about Demon teaching because the Church I attended at the time didn't understand what Demons were. Many in that group never got good ministry on the subject yet had problems that no one could deal with other than to send them to medical help. The scriptures talk a lot about demons and deliverance. I understand a lot more now and we are able to help many that other ministries could not help. We believe in all the Spiritual gifts including casting out of Demons.

[FredFlanders]

Is the woman herself aware of her own 'manifestations?'

Yes Matt,
I do not know whether she remembers all what goes on when they take place but she tries to resist it when it comes and some times succeeds and some times not. When the manifestations take place we can speak to the demon and some times we can get through to her so she is aware of the manifestations.
This event is common with many that have demons but this one is a tough one.

[FredFlanders]

Well, gee, it appears that He said they would cast out demons.

Now, when are you going to get around to the point of proving whether or not a sickness is demonic or not?

BE,
Our experience is when demons are cast out, sickness has left at the same time.

[FredFlanders]

:rofl:

==========
Fred, don't listen to Ty. He tried to exorcise me from a tweb thread one time and it didn't work.

I think it might have failed because he didn't use the right spelling and didn't know my secret name.

Sparko,
I have no problem with Ty and his advice is good and worth considering.

[FredFlanders]

I am sorry but I have never heard such rubbish. There is obviously some in your congregation who should not be casting out anything , let along so called demons.

I find this whole mummy incident rather odd. I can also assure you that the young girl who was 12 at the time of this so called incident would not have felt something enetering her. This is all coming from the girls mind and nowhere else. Because there is a beleif in demons and so forth and all the dealings of the dark souls, then it is easy for the impresionable mind to 'hypnotise' itself.

My advice is to take this lady to see a psychiatrist or at least someone who knows what Spirit really is, ie a spiritualist who will do a excorcism if the lady is 'possesed'. if this is as true as we are led to beleive, no matter how it has come about, I do hope all is well with this lady in the future.

Regards
Gatsby

Gatsby,
When Jesus said that beleivers could cast out demons (Mark 16 v 16-18) do you beleive Him?

[FredFlanders]

To all;

Thank you to all that have tried help and have considered all. This is an on going process with the woman involved. We will give more consideration to prayer and fasting as I believe it will take more of this this than we were prepared for. I will keep you posted on the results but as you know some times this can be a long process.

[headheart]

Why don't you use your brain?


Who needs a brain, when one can buy a talking byblos....

65310

[Adrift]

Adrift,
I understand what you mean and thought the same as you about Demon teaching because the Church I attended at the time didn't understand what Demons were. Many in that group never got good ministry on the subject yet had problems that no one could deal with other than to send them to medical help. The scriptures talk a lot about demons and deliverance. I understand a lot more now and we are able to help many that other ministries could not help. We believe in all the Spiritual gifts including casting out of Demons.

I think you misunderstand my position. I also believe that people can be delivered from demons in the name of Christ, and I think its good to be knowledgeable about these things. But those who are in Christ must do everything decently and in order. A good majority of deliverance ministries I've seen are typically anything but decent and in order and often in the chaos they seem to be doing more for the adversary than they are for the Kingdom. I remain cautious about ministries who's sole mission is based upon one type of spiritual warfare and only on spiritual warfare. There needs to be balance.

[John Goddard]

Who said anything about sinning daily without repentance? I don't get how you're hung up on this. It's almost like you're not reading anything I'm writing. Where's the disconnect here?

I backed off and had time to think and maybe I'm not being open to what you are saying.

Maybe what I understand the Spirit leaving when we sin is actually just that sin blocks it off, but that it hasn't actually left, and is still calling us to repent. Does that make sense?

So I'm going to leave it there and admit I'm not really sure now. Thanks for discussing since it helped me think more about it.

(edit: Despite my tendency to get snotty, I apologize. Like I say, some days I'm in a bad mood and should stay off the Internet.)

[Adrift]

I backed off and had time to think and maybe I'm not being open to what you are saying.

Maybe what I understand the Spirit leaving when we sin is actually just that sin blocks it off, but that it hasn't actually left, and is still calling us to repent. Does that make sense?

Yeah that does. I'm not totally certain the Holy Spirit is blocked off necessarily, but I believe that when a Christian is unrepentant about sin in their lives they are out of fellowship, not only with the church, but with God, and being out of fellowship has consequences. I think of it sort of like they walk out from under God's umbrella of... well... protection, I suppose.

So I'm going to leave it there and admit I'm not really sure now. Thanks for discussing since it helped me think more about it.

Okay. Thank you too for the discussion, and sorry to the OP for taking this thread off topic.

(edit: Despite my tendency to get snotty, I apologize. Like I say, some days I'm in a bad mood and should stay off the Internet.)

I understand, I get caught up in debate here and sometimes lose focus of how my tone comes off. I apologize if I came off condescending.

[headheart]

I remain cautious about ministries who's sole mission is based upon one type of spiritual warfare and only on spiritual warfare. There needs to be balance.

I agree!

What is a demon ? Is a question that should be answered.
According to Derek Prince, he believed they were disembodied spirits from a Pre-Adamic race. < red herring -- !!! Mummy!!!

:mob:

When Jesus taught about them going out ! --- and living in families inside a person, --- and even as many as a legion, one realizes that they are well able to co-habit in a body in masses (brothers and I suppose sisters). It really depends if the person is allowing them to express their particular manifestation. Be it self-pity, hatred, anger or rage, feelings of unworthiness, even something as diabolical as a demon of death (I often wondered where that terrible feeling that overwhelms some people and even drives them to consider or even commit suicide ) gain entry through moments of weakness, or pressure, for they are always looking for a way in. It is real, it is just because we cannot see them that we find it hard to imagine that they are queing up to satisfy their lusts, and passions through our bodies. :ahem:

:flaming:

Often though problems like this can be dealt with if one teaches sound doctrine, for one of the manifestations of the flesh is heresies, and certainly one can imagine that if a false doctrine gets into the mind, it can wreak havoc allowing other evil things to enter as well. (sometimes it may be the reverse when a deep seated problem of lust, linked to a deep seated problem of unworthiness [manifests itself] by latching on a doctrine of a demon. etc. etc. )
So often it is these false teachings that one sees erupting on forums, where people are carrying a lot of baggage (listening to strange voices, telling them to vent and say hateful and mean things), they are full to the brim with demons (or stuffed full of Occultic teachings, and every false idea) and use the forums to unpack what they call a black mood. :brood: I reject such an idea as being suspect manifestation, and often just a person clinging onto a heretical view. Heresy is definitely the product of a rebellious nature, (and rebellion as the sin of Witchcraft!, or Divination!) that will not come under the instruction of the Holy Spirit, and submit to the authority of Scripture.
Certainly the force of such, is enough to warrant St. Paul handing such a person over to Satan for physical destruction of their bodies. (if they persist in attacking the body of Christ from within) --- I recall the two who were preaching that the resurrection had already taken place, and others that were blaspheming. (Wow! we really need to watch our words, idle words and a critical spirit are definitely stuff that is coming from another wisdom ...)


'This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.'
( James 3:15-18 )


:highfive:
"Praise the Lord!"

Well, that being said, I hope that we all get to sit under sound and bibical ministries that guide us in the way of truth.

In Jesus name,
Amen.

[Vivian]

Certainly the force of such, is enough to warrant St. Paul handing such a person over to Satan for physical destruction of their bodies. (if they persist in attacking the body of Christ from within) --- I recall the two who were preaching that the resurrection had already taken place, and others that were blaspheming. (Wow! we really need to watch our words, idle words and a critical spirit are definitely stuff that is coming from another wisdom ...)


( James 3:15-18 )


:highfive:
"Praise the Lord!"

Well, that being said, I hope that we all get to sit under sound and bibical ministries that guide us in the way of truth.

In Jesus name,
Amen.

Indeed! Hallelu-jah!

The destruction of the physical body is at times mercy - to free the soul from bondage to demons. And yes, I feel you see correctly and insightfully: anything negative in this world - strife, argument, envy, fear, hatred, depression has demonic influences.

As we walk with Christ and find the Truth, we indeed begin to embark on a journey of spiritual awareness, coming to see both the Christ and anti Christ influences working within us, just as Paul did in Romans 7.

And so when we are able to discern between the lawful and the unlawful part of us (which are constantly at war with each other, resulting in inner tension and turmoil, depression), we indeed know we are walking in the steps of the all disciples of Christ.

And you know, seeing this within ourselves is indeed the beginning of the peace that surpasses all understanding.

I at first fought this understanding, as the ego or lawless part of us does, and a wise friend said, Viv - don't you want to be free?

This is the question to ask ourselves and to ask any who suffer from negativity or demonic influence or possession - don't you want to be free?


Shalom.

Viv

[John Goddard]

The destruction of the physical body is at times mercy - to free the soul from bondage to demons...This is the question to ask ourselves and to ask any who suffer from negativity or demonic influence or possession - don't you want to be free?

So the answer is to kill yourself to be free of demons?

I don't get what you two are saying, maybe you and headheart can demystify your speech a little.

[Sparko]

viv is a neognostic. "flesh is bad. spirit is good"

[headheart]

.......... headheart can demystify.....

Please be specific. :huh:

Sincerely,
HH.

[Vivian]

So the answer is to kill yourself to be free of demons?

I don't get what you two are saying, maybe you and headheart can demystify your speech a little.

Hi John!

No - self destruction is completely different. Self-destruction comes from demonic influence, not God. A personality that takes its own life has been darkened by demons - no matter the 'logic' that compels them. Demons are really good at logic!

No man, even Jesus, can righteously take their own life. Because, for a righteous being, their life does not belong to them, but to God. (They can though lay it down for others to take.)

But the shortening of other men's lives by a righteous being can be a merciful act, such as what God did with mankind after the flood.

Really all I am saying is look at the thoughts and feelings that pass through you, pass through all of us. All negative thoughts and feelings are born of our passions - our desires and fears, which then become 'openings' into our spiritual bodies for demonic beings to enter in and place even more negative thoughts in our minds.

When our negative thoughts begin to escalate, this is a sure sign that demons have made their way in. This is how some Old Testament figures were influenced to do evil works, King Saul for example. Their desires and fears became openings for false spirits which then took over their minds. Such persons will incorrectly assume that the false-spirit-thoughts they experience are theirs.

This is why we are told to make every thought 'captive to Christ'. In this process we will become the observer of our thoughts, evaluating them instantaneously, and only holding to those thoughts which are Christlike, and letting the others pass on through.

If I might offer to all reading this, try it sometime. When a negative thought enters your mind, ignore it, and see how often it will just dissipate into nothingness as though it never existed. If though we grasp at the thought, feeding it with our fears and passions, allowing it to escalate into even more thoughts, we might just suddenly find ourselves consumed with negativity - anger, fear, envy, depression.

This is how demons influence us. And any of us having negative thoughts are not safe from demons, no matter what our theology tells us! Just look at what is going on inside of you - if you were truly all Christ's, there would be nothing but Christ's righteousness in your thought and desire life.


Shalom.

Viv

[John Goddard]

But the shortening of other men's lives by a righteous being can be a merciful act, such as what God did with mankind after the flood.

Who do you consider to be righteous enough to end lives like that? Anyone except for Jesus?

If I might offer to all reading this, try it sometime. When a negative thought enters your mind, ignore it, and see how often it will just dissipate into nothingness as though it never existed.

My main obsessions are lust, alcohol, and worldly wealth and power. I can't just ignore them of my own free will, I have to ask God to take it away and He does when I really want them gone.

That's like the starting point.

And then I need to be focused on helping others a lot for me to remember to ask God to remove those thoughts, otherwise they continue to plague me until I get out of my own self-pity and help someone else.

That's about how my spiritual program works.

[Vivian]

Who do you consider to be righteous enough to end lives like that? Anyone except for Jesus?

Elijah comes to mind. Killing of the 500 false prophets - shortening their lives mercifully so that they would not be further consumed by darkness.


My main obsessions are lust, alcohol, and worldly wealth and power. I can't just ignore them of my own free will, I have to ask God to take it away and He does when I really want them gone.

That's like the starting point.

And then I need to be focused on helping others a lot for me to remember to ask God to remove those thoughts, otherwise they continue to plague me until I get out of my own self-pity and help someone else.

That's about how my spiritual program works.

Yes, this is indeed the starting point, the starting point of walking in true discipleship. Until we come to this point, where we trust Christ to help us with our inner life, we are still devoid of faith, no matter what theology we claim.

Shalom.

Viv

[headheart]

Indeed! Hallelu-jah!


Hi Viv,
I see that John has already replied to your reply to my comment, so rather than attempt to explain what you are thinking, I will address your views myself. Hopefully this will avoid any confusion and nastiness. (Which is already being manifested by our in house funny pirate Sparko). :wink:


You say:...
The destruction of the physical body is at times mercy - to free the soul from bondage to demons.


Actually the destruction of the body (the temple of the Holy Spirit) would only be something that happens in a very extreme situation, the prime objective is the preservation of the whole person....


'And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and IprayGod your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

(1 Thessalonians 5:23 )


I am only aware of one such extreme case in the Scriptures, .... (though it is certainly enough to warn us that it is not beyond God to deal with us --- He is after all Holy and is no respecter of persons)...


'But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.'

( Acts 5:3-5 )


( 'Sapphira went that same day' )

John Gill's comments, reveal the exceptional nature of this situation...

'an instance of what the Jews call death by the hand of heaven: and this was done either by an angel; or rather by an extraordinary gift bestowed on Peter, being such an one as the Apostle Paul had, and used, when he smote Elymas the sorcerer with blindness, and delivered the incestuous person, and Alexander and Hymeneus to Satan.'


'Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.'
(1 Timothy 1:20 )

And yes, I feel you see correctly and insightfully: anything negative in this world - strife, argument, envy, fear, hatred, depression has demonic influences.

Well, I would not go so far as to say that 'anything negative', but I would certainly say that casting out a demon of alcholism or cigarette addiction, would be supreficial manifestations of a deeper problem (ie. poor self image, insecurity, and particularly self-pity. ) which may or may not have demonic associations. This would need to be dealt with by a professional counsellor.

However, not everything can be explained in these terms, for in some cases the problem is not demonic but an actual physical problem, in the brain or nervous system, for which both prayer and medicine work in harmony with each other. One might say Science and Faith shake hands and agree to work together in the healing process.


As we walk with Christ and find the Truth, we indeed begin to embark on a journey of spiritual awareness, coming to see both the Christ and anti Christ influences working within us, just as Paul did in Romans 7.

This struggle is real, but I would certainly not create polar opposites, or that idea is certainly not Christian. Consider the following passage of Scripture, and memorize it...


'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.'

( 1 John 4:1-5 )


Amen ?


And so when we are able to discern between the lawful and the unlawful part of us (which are constantly at war with each other, resulting in inner tension and turmoil, depression), we indeed know we are walking in the steps of the all disciples of Christ.

This might be so at times in our lives as Christians, but it is not a place that we must stay in. We are to learn what it means to walk in the Spirit and to put to death the flesh (not our physical body but the lusts and pride, and passions that war in our members.) This is a hard walk, but it is one that we can be victorious in, if we learn to walk in the Spirit. (I strongly advice you to go beyond Romans 7, and read Romans 8. --- there is wonderful security and forgiveness, and cleansing ( 1 John 1 ) in the life in the Spirit.


And you know, seeing this within ourselves is indeed the beginning of the peace that surpasses all understanding.

I agree, that coming to terms with this war in our members is important, but we must not think that this is what the Christian life is meant to be. We must go on to maturity and putting off, these things. The following is another long passage, but read it and think about what you are reading.


'This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil.'

( Ephesians 4:17-27)


I at first fought this understanding, as the ego or lawless part of us does, and a wise friend said, Viv - don't you want to be free?

That is clearly the very feeling of frustration that St. Paul expresses at the end of Romans 7. 'Who will rescue me from this body fo death?'

This is the question to ask ourselves and to ask any who suffer from negativity or demonic influence or possession - don't you want to be free?

Sure, Viv. No one wants the negativity, or demonic influence ( I think possession is a very old King James word, that really can be very misleading --- Demons cannot really possess, they can occupy, but they are unable to possess.) They will try to gain access to the home, but it cannot be possessed, as if somehow it were vacant. We are inside our bodies and well, that means someone who gains access will have to do so with our permission. (though there are unique cases with infants, but that is something else)


Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

( 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 )

Now for a Christian, we have the Holy Spirit in His temple(our physical body), and therefore whatever demon may still be hanging around, ..it's days are numbered, for Christ (excuse my humour) "Christ keeps a clean house." (remember what John the Baptist said about Jesus ?)

The seal of the Holy Spirit is really important to remember, but if we do not walk worthily of this calling, and open ourselves up to the Occult and those detestable things meantioned in Deuteronomy 18 verse 9-14 - we have to realize that the Lord will not strive with us, if we quench and grieve the Holy Spirit repetively, there will be consequences.
Though God is very merciful and everlasting in love, He is also the one who has to discipline us and though it might be grievious at times, it is for our good.

Now, yes...Praise the Lord!


Sincerely,
HH.

[Vivian]

Hi Viv,
I see that John has already replied to your reply to my comment, so rather than attempt to explain what you are thinking, I will address your views myself. Hopefully this will avoid any confusion and nastiness. (Which is already being manifested by our in house funny pirate Sparko). :wink:

Hi headheart!

It is my prayer that all who need this understanding will take heed to what is being shared - or at least say hey - why not give it a try, for there certainly is nothing to lose (except an incomplete understanding that was keeping us in bondage!). :wink:

Actually the destruction of the body (the temple of the Holy Spirit) would only be something that happens in a very extreme situation, the prime objective is the preservation of the whole person....



I am only aware of one such extreme case in the Scriptures, .... (though it is certainly enough to warn us that it is not beyond God to deal with us --- He is after all Holy and is no respecter of persons)...



( 'Sapphira went that same day' )

John Gill's comments, reveal the exceptional nature of this situation...

Yes, indeed. I have never met personally anyone who walks on earth at this level of righteousness, and historically, there have only been a few.

Well, I would not go so far as to say that 'anything negative', but I would certainly say that casting out a demon of alcholism or cigarette addiction, would be supreficial manifestations of a deeper problem (ie. poor self image, insecurity, and particularly self-pity. ) which may or may not have demonic associations. This would need to be dealt with by a professional counsellor. Yes, human bondage is deep and complex and to get at the root of problems requires much faith and assistance. Typically it takes outside friends and counselors/doctors to help us with the things we can see, and Christ on the inside helping us with things we cannot see. [For example, regarding addiction, there are what some call 'tramp souls' - who suffered from heavy addiction in physical life - walking in this world as spirit beings or demons, looking for those through whom they can find satisfaction of their addiction - addictions lasting beyond the grave. So every addict, whether it be of nicotine, meth, food, negative emotions, etc, is likely to have tramp souls encouraging and feeding their addiction. This would be what we are unable to see, necessitating the help of God to become free of addiction.]

However, not everything can be explained in these terms, for in some cases the problem is not demonic but an actual physical problem, in the brain or nervous system, for which both prayer and medicine work in harmony with each other. One might say Science and Faith shake hands and agree to work together in the healing process. Indeed. I agree wholeheartedly.

This struggle is real, but I would certainly not create polar opposites, or that idea is certainly not Christian. Consider the following passage of Scripture, and memorize it...



Amen ?

Amen!

It is our faith in He who is greater than the world that will lead, allow, permit, us to overcome the world - or the spirits and principalities of evil which are constantly trying to work in us and through us and all around us in this world.


Faith that we can find freedom from this negativity through Christ is the faith that saves us.



This might be so at times in our lives as Christians, but it is not a place that we must stay in. We are to learn what it means to walk in the Spirit and to put to death the flesh (not our physical body but the lusts and pride, and passions that war in our members.) This is a hard walk, but it is one that we can be victorious in, if we learn to walk in the Spirit. (I strongly advice you to go beyond Romans 7, and read Romans 8. --- there is wonderful security and forgiveness, and cleansing ( 1 John 1 ) in the life in the Spirit. Yes, I have read the these verses probably 100 times! And indeed we can be victorious in our walk in the Spirit.

I know that Christ's work in me has only just begun, but can truthfully share that I am no longer in bondage to negativity. Occasionally I do see it in me - presently I detect negativity in the pre-thought stage. I can feel the energy that would result in negative thoughts usually before the thoughts manifest and am able to take action to remove the energy from my being.

Sometimes I miss the pre-thought stage and the thoughts enter my mind and may swirl there for a few minutes before I wake up to what has happened. But I have been gifted with the ability to expunge negativity from my being and am no longer a captive to it. Having been someone who previously suffered great depression, I feel immense gratitude and wish to help others any way possible to find the same freedom.

But I know that I have only begun. While reaching this point is a lot of work, there is still much work to be done.



I agree, that coming to terms with this war in our members is important, but we must not think that this is what the Christian life is meant to be. We must go on to maturity and putting off, these things. The following is another long passage, but read it and think about what you are reading. Indeed. I no longer feel at war inwardly, but am still 'attacked'.




That is clearly the very feeling of frustration that St. Paul expresses at the end of Romans 7. 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?' Real freedom cannot be found without Christ, which first requires that we know Christ is there to help and second that we have faith that he can!



Sure, Viv. No one wants the negativity, or demonic influence ( I think possession is a very old King James word, that really can be very misleading --- Demons cannot really possess, they can occupy, but they are unable to possess.) They will try to gain access to the home, but it cannot be possessed, as if somehow it were vacant. We are inside our bodies and well, that means someone who gains access will have to do so with our permission. (though there are unique cases with infants, but that is something else)Indeed and we give our permission with our passions - with our desires and fears. It is like saying/feeling, he makes me so mad that I wish something bad would happen to him! And viola! a spirit enters us and will try to work through us to make that something bad happen.


Now for a Christian, we have the Holy Spirit in His temple(our physical body), and therefore whatever demon may still be hanging around, ..it's days are numbered, for Christ (excuse my humour) "Christ keeps a clean house." (remember what John the Baptist said about Jesus ?) He said many things! One that comes to mind is that Jesus came to baptize us with the Holy Spirit - this is the anointing of Spirit that will work to clean us from the inside out, just as we are talking of here!

Or perhaps Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

This again is speaking of cleaning us from inside out (along with other things related to his sacrifice)!

The seal of the Holy Spirit is really important to remember, but if we do not walk worthily of this calling, and open ourselves up to the Occult and those detestable things meantioned in Deuteronomy 18 verse 9-14 - we have to realize that the Lord will not strive with us, if we quench and grieve the Holy Spirit repetively, there will be consequences.
Though God is very merciful and everlasting in love, He is also the one who has to discipline us and though it might be grievious at times, it is for our good.

Now, yes...Praise the Lord!


Sincerely,
HH.Instead of seal, I call it anointing for it is more than a mark that Christ gives us. He gives us a living, working Spirit that will transform us, if only we would believe.

Peace and Blessings abundant, HH.

Viv

[headheart]

Who do you consider to be righteous enough to end lives like that? Anyone except for Jesus?


John,
This authority has been given to 'the body of Christ.' ( there is certainly more than enough Scripture in the New Testament to substantiate that. Matthew 16:18-19 comes to mind )


My main obsessions are lust, alcohol, and worldly wealth and power. I can't just ignore them of my own free will, I have to ask God to take it away and He does when I really want them gone

That's like the starting point.


Though I agree with Viv, that this is a good place to start.

You need to pay close attention to what you are saying. You call these 'lust' one of your 'main obsessions'.
Though I like what you say about wanting them gone, ... but the bit about not being able to ignore them of your own free will, ...is not the place I would go to with any addiction (and I sure had my share) ... you need to develop a genuine hatred for lust and something I found really hard to manage was this idea of self-control. Yet, self-control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and one needs to actually use that self control to gain a definite advantage over lust.
If there is a demonic side to this, you have all the authority ...well that is a problem, and I am wondering if there is a connection to your idea about Adoptionism and maybe your not giving Jesus his rightful place in your life is diminshing the release of 'power' in your life ? Heresy definitely is a problem of itself and maybe bed partners for your battle with lust. Brother, I am going to keep you before our Lord God, on this matter. Anyhow, I know that I was a slave to my lusts for fourteen years, and only after I really began to hate my addictions and want to see it end, did I begin developing a plan of destruction of the things that were not of God. Lust is not the Kingdom of God. It is an enemy and it is time for Asteriods.
I know how anger messed up my life, and once I got to control it..step 1, and then to think about what was triggering it, I found that because the Holy Spirit is self-control (Hallelujah!) --- I said that right.. (He) is going to shoot down the size of that rock..until it is totally managable. Once one gets into a habit of actually exercizing that self control muscle of God, then one is better able to deal with the thing! Taking time to figure out what is causing it...actually has a double attack system...you gain control, and secondly you learn to whip it with your renewed mind in Christ...It worked for me and I guess I have to realize the Holy Spirit is going to help you do. I just cannot help wondering how much your problem might be related to how you view Jesus. Well, that is not my hassel. :sigh:


And then I need to be focused on helping others a lot for me to remember to ask God to remove those thoughts, otherwise they continue to plague me until I get out of my own self-pity and help someone else.

Yes, I can see how useful that is, for it means you have to use self control to do that. Yet, one has to realize that this is the programme. Self control...addicts seem to hate that word. But you are right about 'doing what is right'...Amen brother. That is a great move. It is normally what one does to manage an emergency, but to crush the monster, you need to use the weapons of the fruit of the Spirit and of course the glorious armour of God to shield you. So often that is left out. We become targets for lust, if we do not couple our efforts at self control and doing what is right, with keeping a regular time with Jesus and confessing stuff that comes up, not letting that get to built up...and of course staying armed to the teeth with God's holy armour. Some laugh about this, but hey we are instructed by Jesus to pray, and by the Apostle's doctrine to pray without ceasing. So much in our lives is dependant on the one word that most kids hate...self control...

Well, I know I have gone on too long, but I really felt strongly about speaking out the pain of my own life and how I learned to work at getting that VICTORY! Sweet victory over obseessions (lol) ....Not! Things that God HATES! We have to hate to really see and end to them. Thinking about the consequences I believe is also part of the twelve steps..
Hey I am proud of you brother, you are going to get that Jesus Victory and we are going to celebate ...

That's about how my spiritual program works.

Ditto! :teeth:

[John Goddard]

Elijah comes to mind. Killing of the 500 false prophets - shortening their lives mercifully so that they would not be further consumed by darkness. Yes, this is indeed the starting point, the starting point of walking in true discipleship. Until we come to this point, where we trust Christ to help us with our inner life, we are still devoid of faith, no matter what theology we claim. Shalom. Viv

Yeah sometimes I talk from my brain. But other times I talk with the power of Elijah.

But the question is, who would be able to kill hopelessly-demon possessed people today.

[John Goddard]

John, This authority has been given to 'the body of Christ.' ( there is certainly more than enough Scripture in the New Testament to substantiate that. Matthew 16:18-19 comes to mind )

Thanks, I can see you might understand some things I said.

[Vivian]

Yeah sometimes I talk from my brain. But other times I talk with the power of Elijah.

But the question is, who would be able to kill hopelessly-demon possessed people today.

The only sharing on this I have received face to face from a righteous one is that this why we have capital punishment - for cases such as these, where the evil perpetrated indicates that either the soul is either consumed by demonic influences (hence no salvic work can be done in this life) or it is a spawn of demonic influences and there is no human soul present.

[John Goddard]

The only sharing on this I have received face to face from a righteous one is that this why we have capital punishment - for cases such as these, where the evil perpetrated indicates that either the soul is either consumed by demonic influences (hence no salvic work can be done in this life) or it is a spawn of demonic influences and there is no human soul present.

How do you know Gentiles who do capital punishment aren't demon-possessed themselves?

I mean in the USA the goddess Justice is a Roman goddess so don't you think a false god acts the same as a demon?

And therefore, that all the US Judges might be possessed by that demon?

Why don't we move beyond speculation and put the money where the mouth is, so to speak.

[headheart]

If I might offer to all reading this, try it sometime. When a negative thought enters your mind, ignore it, and see how often it will just dissipate into nothingness as though it never existed. If though we grasp at the thought, feeding it with our fears and passions, allowing it to escalate into even more thoughts, we might just suddenly find ourselves consumed with negativity - anger, fear, envy, depression.


Hi Viv.,
There are negative thoughts that are our own, and these we can express happily in the presense of our loving Father.
However, what you are speaking about is negative thoughts that originate seperate to our mind. These can be either a result of a physical disease (medically treatment is wisest, coupled with prayer for healing)...one will discover as Dr. Kurt Koch did, that people who are sick like that do not manifest when you pray for them.
If they are the other sort, 'enemy' voices, then it could either be nearby (outside) or inside, if they are inside then one has an intruder! These can go out with prayer and fasting, or just from attending a fellowship where Jesus is preached, ... and one can receive the protection and prayers of brothers and sisters. Like I said to John, the authority has been given to 'the body of Christ' Amen to that! We sort our our problems because Jesus has equipped his body with these 'priestly ministries' (just like you said in your first post.)


This is how demons influence us. And any of us having negative thoughts are not safe from demons, no matter what our theology tells us!


Viv, I do not agree with you on this point.
Having negative thoughts are part of life, but when we have extra negative thoughts, from another source than our own mind, ones that we cannot pray to our Father, then we might have a demon problem...or it might just be what I discussed...a physical disorder, that needs a different type of help (ie. Medicine and Prayer)


Just look at what is going on inside of you - if you were truly all Christ's, there would be nothing but Christ's righteousness in your thought and desire life.

Oh, how I wish this was entirely true. We are not perfect yet and so we are going to have struggles with this until the day we see Christ. Perfection is certainly a wonderful goal, and we get there through struggling and trial and temptations and if we manage to walk in complete victory, watch out I am going to be there to make sure you don't get to comfortable with your big bubble of spiritual pride. POP!!!!!

Sleep tight.
HH.
:eek:




Shalom.

Viv

[headheart]

Yeah sometimes I talk from my brain. But other times I talk with the power of Elijah.


Elijah ? Do I detect a sense of humour ? Anyone remember William Marion Brahnam ?


But the question is, who would be able to kill hopelessly-demon possessed people today

This idea needs to be split down the middle!

1. Organized evil energized by Satan, which results in harm to others is certainly covered by the Hit Squad. (but then like John says, what if...well....then we always have the God squad, remember Sodom and Gomorrah) :wink:
2. A Christian who has opened up Pandora's box, and will not close it, will eventually be subject to what I explained in earlier posts (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2695733&postcount=133).

Seeing as you two are going at chats nicely, I am going to bow out.

Shalom John, Shalom Viv.
May the Lord guide your thoughts.

HH.
:dizzy:
"i am sleeeeepy...."
John I think it is the effect of your spinning avatar...horrible...I preferred your chicken ! :lol:

[John Goddard]

Elijah ? Do I detect a sense of humour ? Anyone remember William Marion Brahnam ?

No. I slay a lot of false prophets all the time. They just don't admit it.

And when my pride gets out of the way, it doesn't matter.

[Vivian]

How do you know Gentiles who do capital punishment aren't demon-possessed themselves?

I mean in the USA the goddess Justice is a Roman goddess so don't you think a false god acts the same as a demon?

And therefore, that all the US Judges might be possessed by that demon?

Why don't we move beyond speculation and put the money where the mouth is, so to speak.

Hi John -

I have faith in God, in his work in and through humanity. And so know that while things remain imperfect, they are weighted on his side, for his victory.

Also, I do not consider most to be all evil or all good but a mixture, so even Roman goddesses reflect something of God! Meaning that God can work to fulfill the prayers and desires of the righteous even through Roman goddesses, even through the 'gentiles' who run our justice system!

I have faith in God and hope in his righteous ones, that their prayers and desires will sustain this earth. Now things may not unfold as I want or expect, but I know that because of the righteous among us, all things will work for good.

Also, all except for the most righteous are influenced by demons. You, me, everyone posting on Tweb. We all have negative energies - thoughts and actions - working through us. The righteous though have worked to overcome so that the demonic influence in them and through them is minimal.

Again, my faith is in God, and my hope is in the workings of Christ in this world through the prayers and desires of the righteous among us, culminating in the salvation of the world.


Shalom.

Viv

[John Goddard]

Meaning that God can work to fulfill the prayers and desires of the righteous even through Roman goddesses, even through the 'gentiles' who run our justice system!

Do you think it's better to say Roman goddesses like Justice and Liberty are false idols compared to Jesus as King of the USA, when Jesus is here?

Simple yes or no question.

[Vivian]

Hi Viv.,
There are negative thoughts that are our own, and these we can express happily in the presense of our loving Father.

Hi HH!

In the outer heavens, such as these worlds, yes. God has restrained himself to allow sin and negativity to exist, allowing us space within our negativity to reach out for him and find that he is right there with us.

As David said, Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, though art with me.

But this is not all that God has planned for us. He desires for us to be able to ascend to the Heavenly Places, where the fullness of the Godhead resides, where God does not restrain himself, and negativity cannot exist. And so until we overcome, we will not be made pillars of his temple (Revelation 3:12).


However, what you are speaking about is negative thoughts that originate seperate to our mind. These can be either a result of a physical disease (medically treatment is wisest, coupled with prayer for healing)...one will discover as Dr. Kurt Koch did, that people who are sick like that do not manifest when you pray for them. I consider all illness to be of the body, mind and spirit - interrelated in some way even if we cannot see it - and when we heal one we heal the others. Just as Jesus practiced in his ministry.

If they are the other sort, 'enemy' voices, then it could either be nearby (outside) or inside, if they are inside then one has an intruder! These can go out with prayer and fasting, or just from attending a fellowship where Jesus is preached, ... and one can receive the protection and prayers of brothers and sisters. Like I said to John, the authority has been given to 'the body of Christ' Amen to that! We sort our our problems because Jesus has equipped his body with these 'priestly ministries' (just like you said in your first post.)There are different sorts and types of demonic presences, all requiring different actions on our part. I am unable to simplify the ones I have known into a few categories.

I have found though, that most presences will depart when one intones the Hebraic Name of Jesus - Yeshua Messiah. A few though have required something else, and that something else has had to be shown to me while in prayer and fasting, and is not something that can be put in human words.

Viv, I do not agree with you on this point.
Having negative thoughts are part of life, but when we have extra negative thoughts, from another source than our own mind, ones that we cannot pray to our Father, then we might have a demon problem...or it might just be what I discussed...a physical disorder, that needs a different type of help (ie. Medicine and Prayer)Yes, they are part of life, but they are not part of Life, and we are told we have to lose our life and all its selfishness and negativity to find Life. You may not agree with me, and all I can do is pray some day you find the other side of negative thinking, experience such freedom, then you will see that it is indeed possible while in physical form. This though is not salvation. This is preparation for the higher work of Spirit leading to salvation.



Oh, how I wish this was entirely true. We are not perfect yet and so we are going to have struggles with this until the day we see Christ. Perfection is certainly a wonderful goal, and we get there through struggling and trial and temptations and if we manage to walk in complete victory, watch out I am going to be there to make sure you don't get to comfortable with your big bubble of spiritual pride. POP!!!!! Ha! I do not like sharing about myself, but do when it feels necessary to reveal the experiences from which I speak. I would not share this, I could not share these things, if I had not first walked through them. Just as Paul was only able to share with us the Christ he knew and obeyed.

Sleep tight.
HH.
:eek:

You too friend. And may you be blessed in your dreams....


Viv

[Vivian]

Do you think it's better to say Roman goddesses like Justice and Liberty are false idols compared to Jesus as King of the USA, when Jesus is here?

Simple yes or no question.

No.

(I hope and pray this this answer is explained in my previous posts!)

[John Goddard]

No. (I hope and pray this this answer is explained in my previous posts!)

No you are saying you can believe in whatever you want besides Jesus, including Roman goddesses. I think you should clarify.

Else I will just think you are like 99.999999999% of blind American Christians who haven't noticed what I just said.

[Vivian]

viv is a neognostic. "flesh is bad. spirit is good"

This is false testimony.

[Vivian]

No you are saying you can believe in whatever you want besides Jesus, including Roman goddesses. I think you should clarify.

Else I will just think you are like 99.999999999% of blind American Christians who haven't noticed what I just said.

Hi John -

Two things - Roman goddesses and American Justice do not make themselves false idols. False idols are something personal, something we do, we make something a false idol personally. If anyone 'worships' American Justice - holding it up as the highest, trusting it, relying on it, they have made it an idol, for themselves.

Thus Roman goddesses and American Justice can be a false idol for one person and not for another.

And, Christ is greater than anything we can make into a personal false idol. That is the issue. He is greater than anything of this world, which also means he can use anything of this world for his purposes, even Roman goddesses and American Justice.

Those who know Christ and trust Christ develop the wisdom necessary to discern when something of this world is being used by him, and when it is being used by the Antichrist Spirit, when Christ's righteousness is manifesting through something or someone of this world. And recognizing Christ's righteousness manifesting through the things of this world, even though this is unknown to the things themselves, is not making them a false idol.

And so I believe Christ is here already, all the time, using any and all means to accomplish the father's work - even Roman goddesses and American Justice!

It is he I trust. He being greater than anything of this world, hence able to use all things of this world.

And we can trust, we can have faith, that Christ is working in this world even before we are able to discern his presence.

And PS - I do not think that flesh is bad or evil in and of itself! I consider such thoughts to be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Suicide or hatred and destruction of one's physical self being the greatest blaspheme.

Shalom.

Viv

[Adrift]

This is false testimony.

It would be more accurate to say that you lean towards mysticism or, some would say, New Ageism. No? More or less, admittedly outside of the mainstream.

[Vivian]

It would be more accurate to say that you lean towards mysticism or, some would say, New Ageism. No? More or less, admittedly outside of the mainstream.

Hi Adrift!

Mysticism would fit - meaning the receiving of mystical experiences. Mystical Christianity especially - which includes St. John of the Cross and St. Francis, and others.

The term gnostic fits too - not gnosticism as defined by mainstream Christianity - but gnostic meaning salvation through increasing intimacy or knowing of God experientially, versus salvation through an intellectual understanding.

There is no standard doctrine behind these definitions of mystical or gnostic - the terms simply referring to experiencing the Spiritual or God. The theology of a mystic develops and grows as they grow, as their experiencing of God deepens.

New Age does not fit.

The best term for the spirituality that I practice is mystical Christianity, or practicing what the apostles practiced and experiencing what they experienced. With its theological roots in mystical Judaism - the same that Jesus was taught in the temple as a youth and expanded upon in his teachings and ministry.


Shalom.

Viv

[Gatsby]

Hi HH!

In the outer heavens, such as these worlds, yes. God has restrained himself to allow sin and negativity to exist, allowing us space within our negativity to reach out for him and find that he is right there with us.

As David said, Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, though art with me.

But this is not all that God has planned for us. He desires for us to be able to ascend to the Heavenly Places, where the fullness of the Godhead resides, where God does not restrain himself, and negativity cannot exist. And so until we overcome, we will not be made pillars of his temple (Revelation 3:12).


I consider all illness to be of the body, mind and spirit - interrelated in some way even if we cannot see it - and when we heal one we heal the others. Just as Jesus practiced in his ministry.

There are different sorts and types of demonic presences, all requiring different actions on our part. I am unable to simplify the ones I have known into a few categories.

I have found though, that most presences will depart when one intones the Hebraic Name of Jesus - Yeshua Messiah. A few though have required something else, and that something else has had to be shown to me while in prayer and fasting, and is not something that can be put in human words.

Yes, they are part of life, but they are not part of Life, and we are told we have to lose our life and all its selfishness and negativity to find Life. You may not agree with me, and all I can do is pray some day you find the other side of negative thinking, experience such freedom, then you will see that it is indeed possible while in physical form. This though is not salvation. This is preparation for the higher work of Spirit leading to salvation.



Ha! I do not like sharing about myself, but do when it feels necessary to reveal the experiences from which I speak. I would not share this, I could not share these things, if I had not first walked through them. Just as Paul was only able to share with us the Christ he knew and obeyed.

You too friend. And may you be blessed in your dreams....


Viv


Hi Viv, of course I agree with you that negative thoughts must be dispelled from us as negative thoughts are a opposing force you could say to all that is good and just and proper.

We also must recognise that thoughts become things and that with our thoughts we create our reality which is our experiences in this lifetime.

We are told not to take care for tomorrow as that will take care of itself which is true when we realise that it is our thoughts and our manner of creating, in the image and likeness of God's way of creating, that brings us our tomorrows. Our thoughts become real in this world and are the causes for all the 'ills' that we face in this world. At a stroke we can negate the negativity when we realise that it is true indeed that I and the Father are One.

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon. I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.

[Adrift]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon. I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.

God bless bro. You have my prayers.

[Michelle]

God bless bro. You have my prayers.

Yeah, same for me, John.

[TyRockwell]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon. I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.
I pray that the Lord strengthen you with power by His Spirit in your inner man, in Jesus' name, Amen. So be it.

[headheart]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon.


Hi John,
You are in my prayers.
I would never call my addiction, 'my personal demon'. Addictions have far deeper roots, even going back to feelings of unworthiness, rejections, inferiority, all manner of complexes, ...however the real problem is that one allows the demon of lust to sooth away the problem and alcohol is a way of getting our gaurd down. Drugs used to be my key to getting a feeling to soothe me, and make me feel special. It was only once I learned to get into that slow burn, (self control) and to try and get to the root of the problem, that the hold over my life was broken. It will take a few times and you might succomb, but if you learn with the fruit that the Holy Spirit has given you will be able to find that way of escape that Jesus spoke off. In the end it is all about control, and of course renewing your mind when you are falling down, that Jesus loves you and will never leave you and will never abandon, you because John, ... He loves you.

I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.

You take care, my brother. Just let Jesus be to you, whatever it is that is lacking in your experience of life. I have learned contrary to what I was told, that Jesus never, ever, leaves and is always reaching out His arms to us, and that means to you. Often we hurt ourselves because we cannot see this love. We have our theological ideas about who we think Jesus is, and what he can and cannot do. The truth is that He is God, and as God He is Love, and also His arms are around, His wings beneath you, and His promise is always true.

I found this verse most comforting.

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

Tenderly,
HH.

ps. If you can get a listen to Jackie Pullingers testimony or ministry audio. I am going to put up a link if I can find it...her ministry was to addicts like myself, and prostitutes, and drunkards. ( behind the wall in China, back then ) ... this link will take you to quite a few sermons, and at the bottom of the page is part one of her testimony - here (http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=117) ) - God be with you

[Vivian]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon. I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.

I am so very sorry to hear of this, John. I come from a family of alcoholics, although my own demons have been 'lecturing', as though I know everything, and food.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

May abundant peace and blessings be yours.


Viv

[Sparko]

Praying for you too John.

[Gatsby]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon. I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.

Good luck to you John and God bless you. You will be in my prayers.

See you back here soon hopefully.

Regards
Gatsby:smile:

[Gatsby]

I dont see that Viv's post is 'false testimony', on the contrary what she has said is true.

Christ is here now, he has always been here now and always shall be here now. Those that do not know this fail to recognise the Spirit within, which is the Christ. By that I dont mean that it is Jesus the man, but the Christed One of the trinity.

There is no mystery to the saint or the sage when there is a knowing that there is no death, that Life lives and Life alone lives.

The knowledge causes the mystery to fall away and be known.

Regards
Gatsby

[Vivian]

Hi Viv, of course I agree with you that negative thoughts must be dispelled from us as negative thoughts are a opposing force you could say to all that is good and just and proper.

Hi Gatsby!

Yes, although the teachings of Jesus directly address this - do not worry , do not fear, lustful thoughts are sin, etc, the message has been lost within mainstream Christianity.

Taking every thought captive to Christ is foundational in parenting my teens - showing my teen children just what results from their thinking.

If you want to know what your future will be, just look at your thoughts today. And it is more than simply what is taught as 'positive thinking' - God's creation is designed so that we invoke exactly what we think.

What we think in our minds will manifest in our outer reality.

And so if we are being influenced or what some call 'obsessed' by demons (the latter seen when we are obsessed with a certain train of thought), it is because we have invited them into us with our thoughts.


We also must recognise that thoughts become things and that with our thoughts we create our reality which is our experiences in this lifetime.Yes, thoughts can become 'thought monsters', where collective fearful thinking can actually create a demon that will make what the collective fears come to past.

And the same happens with prayer. Our prayers will invoke the angel necessary to make things happen in this world. And so we can heal with our prayers, we can change things, for our prayers create the means whereby things are healed or changed.

Our prayers create the spiritual vehicle through which God can work in this world. (see Ezekiel).

And so if we think negatively we are actually praying negative thoughts, and we are actually working with our negative thoughts and prayers what some call black magic. And so each of us is a black magician working in this world, to bring about negative things, when we think negative thoughts. The more focused our thoughts, the more power they have.

As the Bible says, God is involved in answering the focused thoughts or prayers of the righteous. But the principalities and dominions of evil are busy answering the focused thoughts or prayers of the unrighteous.

Those reading this don't have to believe me - just try it. Take every thought captive to Christ and see what happens.

We are told not to take care for tomorrow as that will take care of itself which is true when we realise that it is our thoughts and our manner of creating, in the image and likeness of God's way of creating, that brings us our tomorrows. Our thoughts become real in this world and are the causes for all the 'ills' that we face in this world. At a stroke we can negate the negativity when we realise that it is true indeed that I and the Father are One.

Regards
GatsbyIndeed, we can change things as quickly as we change our thoughts, and if we find we cannot change our thoughts (or renew our minds as Paul instructs), it is because of the demonic influences that have made their home in us. This is when we need to take action to exorcise these presences - simply thinking powerful thoughts as you describe or singing praise songs can rid us of some presences, some though require things like the intoning of Hebraic Holy Names of God, and some require other things which can be revealed to us in sincere righteous prayer.

Again, I don't ask that all those reading this believe me, but just try it sometime and see what happens.

edited to add: Just sweeping our inner house clean of demons is not sufficient as Jesus teaches in Matthew 12:43. We must also engage in the work of healing that allows in a greater presence of Spirit, so that when a banished unclean spirit returns, it will find it filled with Christ's Presence.

Being so filled only happens as we walk in obedience - when we fill our lives with all that Jesus taught.

Shalom.


Viv

[FredFlanders]

I think you misunderstand my position. I also believe that people can be delivered from demons in the name of Christ, and I think its good to be knowledgeable about these things. But those who are in Christ must do everything decently and in order. A good majority of deliverance ministries I've seen are typically anything but decent and in order and often in the chaos they seem to be doing more for the adversary than they are for the Kingdom. I remain cautious about ministries who's sole mission is based upon one type of spiritual warfare and only on spiritual warfare. There needs to be balance.



Adrift,
We are of the same school as I believe decently an in order is the way to conduct meetings and the demons will go at the commandment of the Name of Jesus and/or the Blood of Jesus. At the moment the only scriptural answer to the particular case is more prayer and fasting for this demon to go.

[FredFlanders]

This is notice to everyone I've been relapsed on alcohol for about a week, my own personal demon. I need to come clean so I'm not a hypocrite, and also to explain my increasing rudeness and weirdness. So I'll be gone a while back into recovery. I apologize for any bad feelings I may have caused. Take care.

John,
I see your heart for God and your confusion. Your demons (some say addictions) are different types of demons to the one this lady has and can be cast out forever but are dealt with differently.
The types of demons you have do not just depart forever though repentance alone. Your repentance needs also to be fulfilled and replaced by in infilling of the Holy Spirit. When the empowerment of the Holy Spirit comes, these addictive spirits usually depart forever and are replaced by the Spirit of Jesus. The infilling of the Holy Spirit comes with power and the ability to speak in tongues (praying in the Spirit).
The ability to use the other gifts (read 1 Cor 12,13 &14) is also available to you as you desire them and cultivate them.
Find a Church that operates in All of these gifts and you will find your answer. Most church denominations will speak against some or all of these gifts. This is teaching from the Antichrist so refuse this teaching.
I will start a thread in Christianity 2001 about the Antichrist for those who would like to discuss this topic.

[Pilgrim]

What's to discuss? The only place in scripture where the word "anti Christ" is ever even used in the letters of John. Not in Revelation and never in the context of the end times or even of some specific person. It is used by John to describe any person who does not demonstrate the radical love of Christ towards other believers.

[RumTumTugger]

There is nothing in that statement to brag about. You should not be proud that your behaviour was so bad, and mocking and mean it seemed like a demon. Then again, maybe you do have a demon, and if you want to keep it, you will keep it.

Translation: I was getting my keister whipped by folks who read the bible for what it is worth Were true Berean's who test all teachers by Gods revealed word and found some of my heroes of the WoF and prosperity camp to be in error and heretical letting it be known what those errors and heresy's were. And they would not let me continue my Ignorent acceptance of said teachers so I could continue with my false sense of Peace.

Nick is still waiting for you to come and tell him where Hank Hannegraff is in error and heretical.

[TyRockwell]

:flaming:

:mob:


:flaming:

[Sparko]

:flaming:

:mob:


:flaming:

are you a coward and afraid to defend your charges against Hank?

[RumTumTugger]

:flaming:

:mob:


:flaming:

So what is your take on Psalm 23 Ty?

[Vivian]

I dont see that Viv's post is 'false testimony', on the contrary what she has said is true.

Christ is here now, he has always been here now and always shall be here now. Those that do not know this fail to recognise the Spirit within, which is the Christ. By that I dont mean that it is Jesus the man, but the Christed One of the trinity.

There is no mystery to the saint or the sage when there is a knowing that there is no death, that Life lives and Life alone lives.

The knowledge causes the mystery to fall away and be known.

Regards
Gatsby

Hi Gatsby!

It was I who called Sparko's comment regarding my spiritual practicing false testimony.

Your comment about there being no mystery for the saint or sage has played in my mind, for in my experiencing, the only way for God's mysteries to be revealed is mystically. Hence they are called mysteries - only able to be known through mystical experiencing, for the human intellect is inadequate in explaining or describing them.

And I thought how much of humanity just does not want to know God's mysteries. They do not want to know about angels and demons. They do not want to know what the prophets and what the apostles knew.

They do not want to know God. It is a frightening idea to know God - what if God told you something different than what you learned at church! What a scary thought. I am not being sarcastic, but understand that many just are not ready for God.


Shalom.

Viv

[FredFlanders]

What's to discuss? The only place in scripture where the word "anti Christ" is ever even used in the letters of John. Not in Revelation and never in the context of the end times or even of some specific person. It is used by John to describe any person who does not demonstrate the radical love of Christ towards other believers.

Pilgrim,
You are getting man's love mixed up with God's love. At the moment you do not know what God's love is. God's love works with the gifts of the Spirit and not separately. Get the Holy Spirit and you will understand what I mean. Jesus combines the Love of God with the Spiritual gifts. The Antichrist believes that Christ did not come into the flesh of man. Christ still comes into the flesh of man today and gives us the characteristics of Christ including access to all the gifts He had. The Antichrist will deny this.
You can answer on the Christianity 2001 thread if you want.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

The Antichrist believes that Christ did not come into the flesh of man.Actually, it reads more like this: Whoever denies that Christ has come in the flesh is antichrist.
Christ still comes into the flesh of man todayNo he does not. The incarnation is not repeated today. When John spoke about Christ coming in the flesh, he was not talking about Christ entering other people's flesh. He was talking about Christ becoming physical.
and gives us the characteristics of Christ including access to all the gifts He had. The Antichrist will deny this.By twisting what Scripture says about the incarnation, you have fashioned a self styled way of calling Christians antichrist.

See, this is how it often works. False exegesis leads to sectarian divisiveness.

[Moksha]

In our group of believers we have delivered many from demons but this one will not go. Has any one dealt with some one who has been possessed with a demon that has come from a Mummy? This particular lady now 41 years of age is zealous for Christ yet manifests dramatically during meetings particularly when we are praying in the Spirit. We have found out from her parents that when she was 12 years of age that they visited a museum where there was a Mummy on show and apparently she fell down unexplainably and then told her parents that she felt some thing come inside of her. Today when the manifestations take place it also includes a demonic type of “speaking in tongues” although I know it not to be the Holy Spirit “speaking in tongues” as I am Pentecostal and understand what this is. Over a number of months we have patiently tried to expel the demon but it is a tough one and we have not found the key as yet. The demon will not tell us its name.
Does anyone have knowledge of such “Mummy” demons and can offer some advice to expel the demon?

How do you know it is not the Holy Spirit speaking?
In what other ways is the "demon" manifesting?

Moksha

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I know it not to be the Holy Spirit “speaking in tongues” as I am Pentecostal and understand what this is.I am so sorry, but I feel compelled to express my laughter at this point.

Of all sections of Christianity, the one that has what is undoubtedly the poorest, most uninformed and downright false view of the gift of tongues is without a doubt the Pentecostal movement.

Take this advice: What this person is doing when they make these noises, while the intention might be different, is exactly the same thing that you and your pentecostal brethren are doing every time you think you're speaking in tongues.

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim,
You are getting man's love mixed up with God's love. At the moment you do not know what God's love is. God's love works with the gifts of the Spirit and not separately. Get the Holy Spirit and you will understand what I mean. Jesus combines the Love of God with the Spiritual gifts. The Antichrist believes that Christ did not come into the flesh of man. Christ still comes into the flesh of man today and gives us the characteristics of Christ including access to all the gifts He had. The Antichrist will deny this.
You can answer on the Christianity 2001 thread if you want.

Wow, you are really loving on yourself right now aren't you. But let me assure you, I have experienced God's love in abundance. It seems to me you're getting caught up in what scripture describes as "clanging gongs" and what not. Faith hope and love but the greatest of these is love right? All the other stuff is just a shallow faith looking for reassurance. As Jesus told the gathered "You faithless generation, the only sign you'll get is the sign of Jonah."

[Pilgrim]

Actually, it reads more like this: Whoever denies that Christ has come in the flesh is antichrist.
No he does not. The incarnation is not repeated today. When John spoke about Christ coming in the flesh, he was not talking about Christ entering other people's flesh. He was talking about Christ becoming physical.
By twisting what Scripture says about the incarnation, you have fashioned a self styled way of calling Christians antichrist.

See, this is how it often works. False exegesis leads to sectarian divisiveness.

Well put Doc. And the interesting thing is that John, in using the term anti Christ was writing in the context of a dispute with gnostics who, very much like flanders here, claimed that they had a special knowledge or revelation that was not available to others so the others just could not "get it."

[Pilgrim]

Adrift,
We are of the same school as I believe decently an in order is the way to conduct meetings and the demons will go at the commandment of the Name of Jesus and/or the Blood of Jesus. At the moment the only scriptural answer to the particular case is more prayer and fasting for this demon to go.

This just wrong. Being people gifted by God with reason perhaps as well as praying for this poor child of God we could do the right thing and see to her medical attention at the same time. It's not an either or proposition you know.

[Gatsby]

Hi Gatsby!

It was I who called Sparko's comment regarding my spiritual practicing false testimony.

Your comment about there being no mystery for the saint or sage has played in my mind, for in my experiencing, the only way for God's mysteries to be revealed is mystically. Hence they are called mysteries - only able to be known through mystical experiencing, for the human intellect is inadequate in explaining or describing them.

And I thought how much of humanity just does not want to know God's mysteries. They do not want to know about angels and demons. They do not want to know what the prophets and what the apostles knew.

They do not want to know God. It is a frightening idea to know God - what if God told you something different than what you learned at church! What a scary thought. I am not being sarcastic, but understand that many just are not ready for God.


Shalom.

Viv


Hi Viv, ok sorry I got that wrong, difficult sometimes with all the quotes to keep tab on who wrote what etc.

I do realise and maybe I should have written so that saints and sages do have mystical experiences, your correct in saying that. However, I dont feel that it is necessary for all to have deep mystical experiences to come to know God. Once you have stepped on the path to return to God, there are many moments and experiences of a inuitive kind, ah-ha moments you could call them that suddenly answer a question you may have had or knocked down a stumbling block to truth. These kind of things can happen at any time and do not necessarily have to come from some deep meditation for example. Of course to understand these type of experiences you would have a train of thought that was focussed on God or Christ I would think. I have had many of these kind of answers given to me at various times over the years. I see them as building blocks to the truth.

Of course if people are too scared to get to know God and I beleive you are right in what you say, most people are too scared and they are too scared because of the nonsense they have been peddled by thier churches such as a venegefull God or a wrathfull God and such nonsense as that, no wonder people are scared. But once you leave that kind of thinking behind and come to realise that God IS love, then the way is opened for you to know that Love which is unconditioned and for all everywhere.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Adrift,
We are of the same school as I believe decently an in order is the way to conduct meetings and the demons will go at the commandment of the Name of Jesus and/or the Blood of Jesus. At the moment the only scriptural answer to the particular case is more prayer and fasting for this demon to go.

I fail to see what fasting has to do with anything, how does it equate with getting rid of so called demons? Demons are of the mind and that is where they must be removed.

Regards
Gatsby

[Adrift]

I fail to see what fasting has to do with anything, how does it equate with getting rid of so called demons? Demons are of the mind and that is where they must be removed.

Regards
Gatsby

He's referring to the addendum in Matthew 17 when the disciples could not cast out a certain demon:

19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"

20And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

21["But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."]

Verse 21 is not found in the earliest manuscripts and so some think that a later scribe added it. :shrug: I've heard others preach that it wasn't the demon that goes out with much prayer and fasting, but the little faith, but that doesn't sound very accurate because the parallel of this verse in Mark reads: When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, "Why could we not drive it out?" And He said to them, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer."

[John Goddard]

Good luck to you John and God bless you. You will be in my prayers.

See you back here soon hopefully.

Regards
Gatsby:smile:

Thanks, Day 5 again, I had 5 months sober until a couple weeks ago. My big problem is getting angry at my ex-wife over finances and raising our daughter and not praying to forgive, then eventually I drink to soothe festering resentments which eventually spill over into everything including my posting here.

So I have to be careful to be forgiving and loving, even if I disagree with people. Alcoholism is like my "thorn in the flesh" to keep me humble, I guess.

[Vivian]

He's referring to the addendum in Matthew 17 when the disciples could not cast out a certain demon:

19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"

20And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

21["But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."]

Verse 21 is not found in the earliest manuscripts and so some think that a later scribe added it. :shrug: I've heard others preach that it wasn't the demon that goes out with much prayer and fasting, but the little faith, but that doesn't sound very accurate because the parallel of this verse in Mark reads: When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, "Why could we not drive it out?" And He said to them, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer."

Hi everyone! And it is good to have you back John.

I thought I would share my personal experience with what we could call a demon just yesterday.

I find that most people do not understand or know or see spiritual beings - or beings without physical bodies - which influence and 'exist' in this world. I can - why I am not completely sure! But I can and so will offer to anyone interested my personal experience.

I do agree with the comment made by Gatsby that demons are 'of the mind' - but that does not mean they are not real! :wink:

Existing with us in our space is a multiplicity of other beings varying in light and darkness, just as we vary in light and darkness.

Now there are a few things regarding spirituality that are theoretically true - but just accepting the intellectual idea is not enough. The idea has to be integrated, making its home in us down to our subconscious layers before it becomes 'real', in other words we have to live the idea for it to become our reality.

(I hope that makes sense!)

For example, simply saying that demons are of the mind, simply believing that demons are of the mind, is not enough to free us from their influence. As long as we 'believe' in separation, as long as we hold the belief - in any part of us - that there is something separate from us that can harm us or hurt us or requires self-protection from, we are susceptible to demonic influence and attack.

Just accepting the theoretical or intellectual idea that demons are of the mind is not sufficient. Unless we live unity, with every heart beat and thought, we are vulnerable to harm by demons, and or by anything!

And who among us functions fully as a unity, believing themselves to be a unity of all that is - fully functioning as a unity in all thought, word and deed?

I would say that often I do function as a unity, but I still have my weaknesses, areas of damage, where I fall out of such functioning and then become vulnerable to ideas of separation - ideas that there is something that is other than me, and that something can harm me. And it happened yesterday, as a volunteer for an effort at a girl scout camp where I worked myself to exhaustion. In this state no doubt I had very subtle feelings of separation.

I came home and began to develop a horrendous headache - at first thinking I needed water, or maybe was in the sun too long. And I could not get rid of the headache, not even with taking large quantities of pain killer. Such a headache is not common for me, except - and I had forgotten this - with demonic attack. I had forgotten - until things became quiet in my house, and I sat alone and could 'see' the demon causing the headache.

I am able to detect a change in vibration - where one (mine or another) ends and another being's begins, and hence am able to detect demons and angels, when they are near.

I saw this demon 'on me' I felt its sickly vibration, and suddenly realized what had happened.

And so I sat in the living room and prayed, and chanted Holy Names. But this thing did not budge. So I had to go into fully 'prayer and fasting' mode (fasting biblically means separating oneself from this world - 'fasting from the world' - not engaging in world action or thought, and instead taking on a higher consciousness and perception. And it took some effort, focus and determination, to move beyond the separation that had ushered in the demon coming into a place of unity, a meditative state of Light and Love. And in doing this, I invited the demon to join with me, to be one with me (resist not evil) in worship of Yeshua Messiah. Typically demons will exit when Christ's Light and Love enter in, for they are not able to exist with these in harmony, and this one did.

Often, when we experience a physical malady it is actually being caused by the presence of a demon - a demon invited in by our strong separative feelings (eg when we feel sorry for ourself or angry, feeling separate and harmed by other beings.) This is not to say that our bodies on their own are never sick, just that often demons are the actual cause of a simple sudden malady, or they join us in our already existing suffering, creating side maladies.

If any of you reading this are able to remain always in a state of perfection or wholeness, never having a separative thought or feeling, then perhaps you are truly never bothered by demons! And I for one would be most grateful for your righteous prayer.


Shalom.

Viv

[FredFlanders]

Actually, it reads more like this: Whoever denies that Christ has come in the flesh is antichrist.
No he does not. The incarnation is not repeated today. When John spoke about Christ coming in the flesh, he was not talking about Christ entering other people's flesh. He was talking about Christ becoming physical.
By twisting what Scripture says about the incarnation, you have fashioned a self styled way of calling Christians antichrist.

See, this is how it often works. False exegesis leads to sectarian divisiveness.

Dr, go onto verse 4-6 of 1 John 4 and you will see it is talking about Christ in our flesh and they that are in the world speak of the world and is not of God and hears us not.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[FredFlanders]

How do you know it is not the Holy Spirit speaking?
In what other ways is the "demon" manifesting?

Moksha

Moksha,
I do not like referring to the Movies but if you have ever seen the film Exorcist then you will get some idea of what I mean. Some spirits are not easy to decern but their is no problem discerning this type.

[FredFlanders]

I am so sorry, but I feel compelled to express my laughter at this point.

Of all sections of Christianity, the one that has what is undoubtedly the poorest, most uninformed and downright false view of the gift of tongues is without a doubt the Pentecostal movement.

Take this advice: What this person is doing when they make these noises, while the intention might be different, is exactly the same thing that you and your pentecostal brethren are doing every time you think you're speaking in tongues.

Dr,
Your view on tongues is the same as the Antichrist teaching. I subject you look at the thread on Christianity 2001 and discuss the subject there.

[FredFlanders]

Wow, you are really loving on yourself right now aren't you. But let me assure you, I have experienced God's love in abundance. It seems to me you're getting caught up in what scripture describes as "clanging gongs" and what not. Faith hope and love but the greatest of these is love right? All the other stuff is just a shallow faith looking for reassurance. As Jesus told the gathered "You faithless generation, the only sign you'll get is the sign of Jonah."

P,
What was the first act of love Jesus told us to do after His resurrection? I will give you a clue in the following scriptures.

If you love me you will keep my commandments.

Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[FredFlanders]

I fail to see what fasting has to do with anything, how does it equate with getting rid of so called demons? Demons are of the mind and that is where they must be removed.

Regards
Gatsby

We are dealing with spirits and Christ's answer to the taugh one's such as this was prayer and fasting.
Mark 9 v 17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

[Moksha]

Mark 9 v 17"...which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away:"

Is that what this demon does?
From what you've told us, all it does is speak in a voice which is disturbing to you.

[Sparko]

Dr, go onto verse 4-6 of 1 John 4 and you will see it is talking about Christ in our flesh and they that are in the world speak of the world and is not of God and hears us not.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I am confused. I thought the Holy Spirit indwells us. Sure you could say that the spirit of God or Christ is in us, when thinking of the trinity, but the Holy Spirit is the person of the trinity that indwells us, isn't it?

Doesn't Christ still retain his glorified body in heaven even today? He is still "in the flesh" - the incarnation is forever.

Or don't you believe that?

[Pilgrim]

P,
What was the first act of love Jesus told us to do after His resurrection? I will give you a clue in the following scriptures.

If you love me you will keep my commandments.

Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Looking, looking...Nope, don't see any mention of demons or speaking in tongues in that bit of scripture. Care to try that again?

Jesus command that Jesus was, in context, speaking of, is the command to love God and to love neighbor. It was not about speaking in tongues or casting out demons.

[Gatsby]

Thanks, Day 5 again, I had 5 months sober until a couple weeks ago. My big problem is getting angry at my ex-wife over finances and raising our daughter and not praying to forgive, then eventually I drink to soothe festering resentments which eventually spill over into everything including my posting here.

So I have to be careful to be forgiving and loving, even if I disagree with people. Alcoholism is like my "thorn in the flesh" to keep me humble, I guess.

Fear not John, seems your handling things pretty well to me. Keep up the good work and dont be downcast about anything.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

We are dealing with spirits and Christ's answer to the taugh one's such as this was prayer and fasting.
Mark 9 v 17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Thanks for your reply. It is obvious that this 'demon' represents a physical condition and again this condition or any condition for that matter comes from the mind.
I refer you to Viv's answer to me previously. The deaf and dumb spirit is a malady which causes lack of harmony between spirit mind and body. Some people incarnate with such maladies which they use as learning tools for themselves and other's. For Spirit is perfect and has no inperfection anywhere.

This also of course comes into a different topic which is one of reincarnation. The teachings of Jesus did include reincarnation but was removed from the Bible way back in time. Again, being born blind, deaf or dumb just as a example most likely would indicate reincarnation at work. Reincarnation is not a punishment of any kind I hasten to add as some parts of the world treat it as it is a punishment, it is not.

Thanks again for your helpfull reply

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Hi everyone! And it is good to have you back John.

I thought I would share my personal experience with what we could call a demon just yesterday.

I find that most people do not understand or know or see spiritual beings - or beings without physical bodies - which influence and 'exist' in this world. I can - why I am not completely sure! But I can and so will offer to anyone interested my personal experience.

I do agree with the comment made by Gatsby that demons are 'of the mind' - but that does not mean they are not real! :wink:

Existing with us in our space is a multiplicity of other beings varying in light and darkness, just as we vary in light and darkness.

Now there are a few things regarding spirituality that are theoretically true - but just accepting the intellectual idea is not enough. The idea has to be integrated, making its home in us down to our subconscious layers before it becomes 'real', in other words we have to live the idea for it to become our reality.

(I hope that makes sense!)

For example, simply saying that demons are of the mind, simply believing that demons are of the mind, is not enough to free us from their influence. As long as we 'believe' in separation, as long as we hold the belief - in any part of us - that there is something separate from us that can harm us or hurt us or requires self-protection from, we are susceptible to demonic influence and attack.

Just accepting the theoretical or intellectual idea that demons are of the mind is not sufficient. Unless we live unity, with every heart beat and thought, we are vulnerable to harm by demons, and or by anything!

And who among us functions fully as a unity, believing themselves to be a unity of all that is - fully functioning as a unity in all thought, word and deed?

I would say that often I do function as a unity, but I still have my weaknesses, areas of damage, where I fall out of such functioning and then become vulnerable to ideas of separation - ideas that there is something that is other than me, and that something can harm me. And it happened yesterday, as a volunteer for an effort at a girl scout camp where I worked myself to exhaustion. In this state no doubt I had very subtle feelings of separation.

I came home and began to develop a horrendous headache - at first thinking I needed water, or maybe was in the sun too long. And I could not get rid of the headache, not even with taking large quantities of pain killer. Such a headache is not common for me, except - and I had forgotten this - with demonic attack. I had forgotten - until things became quiet in my house, and I sat alone and could 'see' the demon causing the headache.

I am able to detect a change in vibration - where one (mine or another) ends and another being's begins, and hence am able to detect demons and angels, when they are near.

I saw this demon 'on me' I felt its sickly vibration, and suddenly realized what had happened.

And so I sat in the living room and prayed, and chanted Holy Names. But this thing did not budge. So I had to go into fully 'prayer and fasting' mode (fasting biblically means separating oneself from this world - 'fasting from the world' - not engaging in world action or thought, and instead taking on a higher consciousness and perception. And it took some effort, focus and determination, to move beyond the separation that had ushered in the demon coming into a place of unity, a meditative state of Light and Love. And in doing this, I invited the demon to join with me, to be one with me (resist not evil) in worship of Yeshua Messiah. Typically demons will exit when Christ's Light and Love enter in, for they are not able to exist with these in harmony, and this one did.

Often, when we experience a physical malady it is actually being caused by the presence of a demon - a demon invited in by our strong separative feelings (eg when we feel sorry for ourself or angry, feeling separate and harmed by other beings.) This is not to say that our bodies on their own are never sick, just that often demons are the actual cause of a simple sudden malady, or they join us in our already existing suffering, creating side maladies.

If any of you reading this are able to remain always in a state of perfection or wholeness, never having a separative thought or feeling, then perhaps you are truly never bothered by demons! And I for one would be most grateful for your righteous prayer.


Shalom.

Viv


Thanks Viv, of course your right, all is in the mind but it is quite real also. I wasn't meaning to say it wasn't because the experience is itself, quite real. And it is difficult, even knowing as we do that we are whole in ourselves and not seperate from God yet how easily we forget this and of course we suffer as a result.

Interesting though painfull experience you had. Thanks for sharing it and sharing how you managed to expel the 'demon' within. Very informative.

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

Fear not John, seems your handling things pretty well to me. Keep up the good work and dont be downcast about anything.

Regards
Gatsby

Thanks, I feel good, I have my son 2 weeks visiting and we're vacationing on the beach.

-----------

Around 1984 my dad was getting ready for work and he hear my mom talking in her sleep for a while, he thought it was Latin but when she woke up she remembered four of the words and they were in Hebrew and translated into a specific message from the Bible.

About the same time I dreamed I was walking down a long highway with events of my life going on like a movie on either side, and then an angel threw me into a prison with a lot of strangers. I tried to escape and found my way out, the prison turned out to be a cave on the side of a high mountain, too high to climb down with more angels guarding the top. All around below was a dry desert. So I was stuck on this ledge outside of the cave and realized I was in a Hell of some kind, all alone. I sat down on a rock and cried over my sinful life and tears washed away dust at my feet to reveal a flat stone with many words engraved in it. As soon as I finished reading I woke up and only remembered four of the words. They weren't in Hebrew, but in some other languages they translated into a message about where I was and what happened. Basically it was like Jonah's experience, relating to Purgatory and the Days of Awe before Yom Kippur when names are written in the Book of Life, and blotted from it.

I understand why a lot of Christians think it is a joke, in the '70s when my mom was baptized in a megachurch, the preacher whispered for her to babble something, I guess so it would look like he had special "anointing" or something, and she never went to church again.

But those two things let me know communicating in tongues is real apart from the fakes and gave me a lot of faith over the years.

[FredFlanders]

I am confused. I thought the Holy Spirit indwells us. Sure you could say that the spirit of God or Christ is in us, when thinking of the trinity, but the Holy Spirit is the person of the trinity that indwells us, isn't it?

Doesn't Christ still retain his glorified body in heaven even today? He is still "in the flesh" - the incarnation is forever.

Or don't you believe that?

S, the Holy Spirit has the same characteristics and power as Christ.

John 17 v 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[FredFlanders]

Mark 9 v 17"...which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away:"

Is that what this demon does?
From what you've told us, all it does is speak in a voice which is disturbing to you.

A lot more than that more than I want to say to you right now other than to say there are many type of manifestations and most are hidden to the natural eye or way of thinking. The best way is to search out God first and allow Him to give you discernment of spirits.

[FredFlanders]

Looking, looking...Nope, don't see any mention of demons or speaking in tongues in that bit of scripture. Care to try that again?

Jesus command that Jesus was, in context, speaking of, is the command to love God and to love neighbor. It was not about speaking in tongues or casting out demons.

Read on, read on, until the end of Acts and you will get the full story of what happen to one filled with the Holy Spirit.

At the moment you love yourself not God. When you love God and put Him first then you will know how to love your neighbor.

[Moksha]

A lot more than that more than I want to say to you right now other than to say there are many type of manifestations and most are hidden to the natural eye or way of thinking. The best way is to search out God first and allow Him to give you discernment of spirits.


Sounds like a demon of your own imagining.
You are tormenting this woman for no purpose other than to satisfy your own "spiritual" pride.

You can call it god given discernment but I call it prideful manipulation.

[Vivian]

Thanks Viv, of course your right, all is in the mind but it is quite real also. I wasn't meaning to say it wasn't because the experience is itself, quite real. And it is difficult, even knowing as we do that we are whole in ourselves and not seperate from God yet how easily we forget this and of course we suffer as a result.

Interesting though painfull experience you had. Thanks for sharing it and sharing how you managed to expel the 'demon' within. Very informative.

Regards
Gatsby

Yes, there is much learning yet to be done!

I handled the next exhausting day differently - prayerfully, spending much of the night in prayer and fasting, chanting, and doing other rituals that I have learned, asking that I be tool of God the next day since I was coming into contact with many individuals. I prayed over the many items we would be using, and the place of the gathering.

I caught myself through out the day - praying for others around me, for the whole event, that it be useful for his purposes. And at the end of the day I was exhausted again, and I saw many spirits around - which is common when we are in crowds, spirits following others around will see us and perhaps start to follow us (they especially see and are drawn to those who can see them) - but none attacked and perhaps a few were even uplifted by the prayers!

And though exhausted, from the very beginning the day was different. Things had changed and moved around without me speaking a word, and suddenly instead of three adults doing the work, we had 4 adults and 2 teen helpers - and all went smoothly. And at the end of the day, suddenly there was a woman who appeared out of no where helping me at the end, to clean everything up.

When we remember that every thought, every word, every action, affects all of creation, we do function differently, as a unity, as one body. And the gates of heaven open and its power pours out upon us to assist us in our efforts.

Many though, even reading these words, will not believe that the suffering they experience in life is not necessary. Our suffering is a product of our own making, of our own thinking and attitudes, and emotions. And if we make every thought, every word, every action, captive to Christ, our life will be abundant with joy and peace.

Shalom.

Viv

[Vivian]

Thanks, I feel good, I have my son 2 weeks visiting and we're vacationing on the beach.

-----------

Around 1984 my dad was getting ready for work and he hear my mom talking in her sleep for a while, he thought it was Latin but when she woke up she remembered four of the words and they were in Hebrew and translated into a specific message from the Bible.

About the same time I dreamed I was walking down a long highway with events of my life going on like a movie on either side, and then an angel threw me into a prison with a lot of strangers. I tried to escape and found my way out, the prison turned out to be a cave on the side of a high mountain, too high to climb down with more angels guarding the top. All around below was a dry desert. So I was stuck on this ledge outside of the cave and realized I was in a Hell of some kind, all alone. I sat down on a rock and cried over my sinful life and tears washed away dust at my feet to reveal a flat stone with many words engraved in it. As soon as I finished reading I woke up and only remembered four of the words. They weren't in Hebrew, but in some other languages they translated into a message about where I was and what happened. Basically it was like Jonah's experience, relating to Purgatory and the Days of Awe before Yom Kippur when names are written in the Book of Life, and blotted from it.

I understand why a lot of Christians think it is a joke, in the '70s when my mom was baptized in a megachurch, the preacher whispered for her to babble something, I guess so it would look like he had special "anointing" or something, and she never went to church again.

But those two things let me know communicating in tongues is real apart from the fakes and gave me a lot of faith over the years.

Hi John!

I am glad to hear that you are doing better. And it sounds good that your son is there. Sometimes just having another person (or creature!) to care about is enough to turn our attitudes and thoughts away from our self and towards love and kindness or Christ.

And I believe your experiences and those of your family to be very real. The inner side is filled with spirit beings that are trying to help us, trying to break through, and they will enter into our dreams and our thoughts, as they are able, giving us messages and lessons that will aid us in our journey.

And we ought to pay attention!

As far as speaking in tongues, as shared in another forum, this phenomena occurs in multiple spiritual traditions, being referred to as kundalini speak in Hinduism and Buddhism. It occurs when spiritual energy stimulates the vocal center, resulting in a spontaneous speaking in gibberish. Such though, in these other traditions, is not considered a sign of righteousness nor a sign of election or salvation.

It is just a physical phenomena, like water boiling when it is heated by fire.


Shalom.

Viv

[Sparko]

S, the Holy Spirit has the same characteristics and power as Christ.

John 17 v 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


You never answered my question.

Do you think Jesus still retains his glorified body right now?

[FredFlanders]

You never answered my question.

Do you think Jesus still retains his glorified body right now?

Yes Sparko,
He is sitting on the right hand of God in His glorified body.

The same Spirit that glorified Him on earth and resurrected Him is available to us. This will glorify Him on earth today doing the same works as He did and will raise us up from the dead and glorify us at our resurrection.

[Matt M]

What ever happened to the woman mentioned in the OP? Did she ever get exorcised?