Recognizing the teachings of the Antichrist in your Denomination

[FredFlanders]

When Jesus was with us 2000 years ago He was known by His Spirit which manifested Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healing, Miracles and casting out of Demons. When Jesus left to be with His Father He told His followers that He would send us another Comforter to replace Himself and this would be called the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in Mark 16 v 15-18 that this Holy Spirit would enable believers to have the same Spiritual manifestations He had including the ability to speak in tongues (in the Spirit).

The same Spirit that Jesus had came into the flesh of man. The Antichrist (the one that speaks against Christ) is the one that speaks against the Spirit coming into the flesh of man and man having the same Spiritual manifestations as did Christ. The Spiritual manifestations we have through the Holy Spirit are listed in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and are available to all believers. We are told in 1 Cor 14 to desire and cultivate all the Spiritual gifts.

Any church doctrine that teaches against the Spiritual gifts coming into the flesh of man teaches the Antichrist.

1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

[timspong]

Jesus said in Mark 16 v 15-18 that this Holy Spirit would enable believers to have the same Spiritual manifestations He had including the ability to speak in tongues (in the Spirit).

With the advent of modern textual criticism It is almost universally accepted that the end of Mark (ch16.9 onwards) was not in the original manuscripts and was a later addition.

You are on very dangerous ground if you use it as your sole source for a doctrinal position.

Are you a "KJV only" proponent by any chance?

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

What I don't understand, Fred, is how 1 John 4 is about denial of spiritual gifts. :huh:

[FredFlanders]

With the advent of modern textual criticism It is almost universally accepted that the end of Mark (ch16.9 onwards) was not in the original manuscripts and was a later addition.

You are on very dangerous ground if you use it as your sole source for a doctrinal position.

Are you a "KJV only" proponent by any chance? T, other scriptures in the Bible will prove Mark 16. Thousands of beleivers have experienced these signs. Only teaching from the Antichrist denys these signs or gifts coming into man. And no I will look at other translations of the Bible and concordances to search out many scriptures.

[Pilgrim]

The only time the term anti Christ is ever used in Scripture is in the johanine epistles and never in the context or with the definitions you are ascribing to it.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

T, other scriptures in the Bible will prove Mark 16. Thousands of beleivers have experienced these signs. Only teaching from the Antichrist denys these signs or gifts coming into man. And no I will look at other translations of the Bible and concordances to search out many scriptures.

can you give examples please, of other scriptures that "prove Mark 16" (especially the snake issue) - and the Antichrist is not about denying gifts, but about denying Christ.

[FredFlanders]

What I don't understand, Fred, is how 1 John 4 is about denial of spiritual gifts. :huh:L, when the Holy Spirit or the body of Christ comes into man we have access to all the spiritual gifts including being able to pray in the spirit or tongues. When some one denys these abilitys in the Spirit filled beleiver, they are denying Christ has come into the flesh of man.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

L, when the Holy Spirit or the body of Christ comes into man we have access to all the spiritual gifts including being able to pray in the spirit or tongues. When some one denys these abilitys in the Spirit filled beleiver, they are denying Christ has come into the flesh of man.

what are you talking about?

Please show me from scripture where it says 'the body of Christ comes into man'?

Also, historically, spiritual gifts have not been a major thing in the church since the Bible became officially canon. (okay, you can cite Pentecostal revivals, but I mean generally speaking)

Again, 1 John 4 is NOT about spiritual gifts. It is about those who deny Christ came in the flesh.

[JonathanDW]

When Jesus was with us 2000 years ago He was known by His Spirit which manifested Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healing, Miracles and casting out of Demons. When Jesus left to be with His Father He told His followers that He would send us another Comforter to replace Himself and this would be called the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in Mark 16 v 15-18 that this Holy Spirit would enable believers to have the same Spiritual manifestations He had including the ability to speak in tongues (in the Spirit).

The same Spirit that Jesus had came into the flesh of man. The Antichrist (the one that speaks against Christ) is the one that speaks against the Spirit coming into the flesh of man and man having the same Spiritual manifestations as did Christ. The Spiritual manifestations we have through the Holy Spirit are listed in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and are available to all believers. We are told in 1 Cor 14 to desire and cultivate all the Spiritual gifts.

Any church doctrine that teaches against the Spiritual gifts coming into the flesh of man teaches the Antichrist.

1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:19 says that the anti-Christs divide or denominate themselves from the true church. Therefore every denomination has the spirit of the anti-Christ.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

if a denomination is affirming Christ having come in the flesh, how is that antichrist?

[FredFlanders]

what are you talking about?

Please show me from scripture where it says 'the body of Christ comes into man'?

Also, historically, spiritual gifts have not been a major thing in the church since the Bible became officially canon. (okay, you can cite Pentecostal revivals, but I mean generally speaking)

Again, 1 John 4 is NOT about spiritual gifts. It is about those who deny Christ came in the flesh.

1 John 4 is about Spiritual gifts. That is how we know Jesus was the Son of God. God is a Spirit and when we receive the Holy Spirit we receive the same Spirit as Christ from God.

Here is your scripture.
John 17 v 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[FredFlanders]

if a denomination is affirming Christ having come in the flesh, how is that antichrist?

When Christ came in the flesh He was known by them that believed by the signs given in the OT yet many still would not believe, in particular the religious people of the day.
The same happens today, the signs of Jesus (given by the Holy Spirit) in the believers are still not believed by most religious denominations. Rather than believing the signs they deny and ridicule them with their teaching. The Antichrist are the one who teach against the signs, the same as they did when Jesus was with us 2000 years ago. Mark 16 v 16-18 reveal some of the signs.

[FredFlanders]

The only time the term anti Christ is ever used in Scripture is in the johanine epistles and never in the context or with the definitions you are ascribing to it.

P,
When John was using the word "Antichrist" in his writtings it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and fitted into the context of the rest of the Bible.

[FredFlanders]

1 John 2:19 says that the anti-Christs divide or denominate themselves from the true church. Therefore every denomination has the spirit of the anti-Christ.

Only the denominations that speak against some or all of the Spiritual gifts have the Antichrist teaching. There are denominations that have and use all the spiritual gifts in their meetings and cultivate them with all the members of their Church.

[FredFlanders]

can you give examples please, of other scriptures that "prove Mark 16" (especially the snake issue) - and the Antichrist is not about denying gifts, but about denying Christ.
Speaking in tongues, healing of the sick & casting out of demons happen in many Churches today. The snakes & poison I do not doubt the natural protection God gives but on the spiritual side of things the snakes it is about taking on Satan and the protection we have in Christ and the poison is about the ability to discern spirits.

[timspong]

T, other scriptures in the Bible will prove Mark 16. Thousands of beleivers have experienced these signs. Only teaching from the Antichrist denys these signs or gifts coming into man. And no I will look at other translations of the Bible and concordances to search out many scriptures.

Wow Ty Rockwell Amen'ded your post so I guess it must be true.

Please give explicit biblical examples proving the claims made in Mark 16.

I would say the most damaging "anti Christ" teaching in the history of the church is the "word of faith" and prosperity movements.

I do not deny spiritual manifestations in these meetings, however, the lack of discernment in these movements lets the door wide open for any demon to come and play. Where any spiritual manifestation is automatically assumed to be the HS even if it makes you laugh hysterically, shake, convulse, kick people, act drunk, bark like a dog etc etc.

In the first great awakening their great open air meetings attracted all kinds of demons and when the leaders discerned their presence they broke the meetings up. Nowadays the demons are welcomed in with open arms and the people are just too stupid and puffed up by their own sense of spiritual maturity to even show the slightest ability to discern the spirits. In fact they go one step further and market them as a product!

BTW every heresy know to man has a plethora of proof texts and it doesn't prove a thing especially if it obvious that the gospel message has been perverted. However, I offer a couple of relevant texts here.


"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." (2 Timothy 4:2-4)

[timspong]

Only the denominations that speak against some or all of the Spiritual gifts have the Antichrist teaching.

Unsubstantiated assertions like this are reminiscent of the kind of rhetoric employed by cults.

[timspong]

Speaking in tongues, healing of the sick & casting out of demons happen in many Churches today.

I also believe this to be true although it does not explicitly prove the inerrancy of Mark 16. Far from it.

[Pilgrim]

P,
When John was using the word "Antichrist" in his writtings it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and fitted into the context of the rest of the Bible.

Sorry cubby, you can't brush away sound exegesis so easily. John was clearly speaking not of some individual person but of anyone who would deny Christ by refusing to exhibit to the other the radical love of Christ. Specifically he was writing into a context of gnosticism which claimed to have a "special" revelation or knowledge that perhaps others could not or would not receive. Which, interestingly enough, seems to always be the case with folks making threads like the one you started here.

[themuzicman]

Fred,

By "access to all the gifts", do you mean that each Christian is able to perform any of the gifts, on command, at any time?

Michael

[T-Shirt Ninja]

L, when the Holy Spirit or the body of Christ comes into man we have access to all the spiritual gifts including being able to pray in the spirit or tongues. When some one denys these abilitys in the Spirit filled beleiver, they are denying Christ has come into the flesh of man.

Do you realize that mind control cults (http://www.howcultswork.com/) operate with language like this? Fred, to begin with, I think you seriously need to analyze your church's behavior very carefully. I'm not saying you should give up your beliefs, but this type of language that puts other Christians who don't believe as you do on the same level as the antichrist is incredibly disturbing.

To begin, I don't believe that every believer has all the gifts because of the Scriptures that I have read. However, I would put charismatic gifts on a level that is non-essential. Basically, a person can be a Pentecostal or a cessationist and still be born-again. Where do you stand? Is believing in charismatic gifts essential or not?

[Obsidian]

@Fred
The term "antichrist," which you derived from 1 John, was actually aimed at gnostics who denied that Jesus was a human being (among other doctrines).

[FredFlanders]

Wow Ty Rockwell Amen'ded your post so I guess it must be true.

Please give explicit biblical examples proving the claims made in Mark 16.

I would say the most damaging "anti Christ" teaching in the history of the church is the "word of faith" and prosperity movements.

I do not deny spiritual manifestations in these meetings, however, the lack of discernment in these movements lets the door wide open for any demon to come and play. Where any spiritual manifestation is automatically assumed to be the HS even if it makes you laugh hysterically, shake, convulse, kick people, act drunk, bark like a dog etc etc.

In the first great awakening their great open air meetings attracted all kinds of demons and when the leaders discerned their presence they broke the meetings up. Nowadays the demons are welcomed in with open arms and the people are just too stupid and puffed up by their own sense of spiritual maturity to even show the slightest ability to discern the spirits. In fact they go one step further and market them as a product!

BTW every heresy know to man has a plethora of proof texts and it doesn't prove a thing especially if it obvious that the gospel message has been perverted. However, I offer a couple of relevant texts here.


"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." (2 Timothy 4:2-4)


T,
I can agree with what you say about false signs and wonders so lets stay with the signs Jesus said will follow believers. By the way the word "follow" in Mark 16 means "to accompany one where ever you go.

1- Speaking in tongues. Came when the Holy Spirit was given for the first time on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2. In Acts 2 v 39 Peter said that this promise was to you and all that were afar off.
As you continue reading the book of Acts this account happened when believers received the Holy Spirit. Paul said in Corinthians that speaking in tongues edified him and was a sign to the unbeliever.
2- Casting out of Demons and healing of the sick you will see examples of this by Philip in Acts 8. When Simon saw this power was given to those who had the Holy Spirit and also to lay hands on others to recieve the Holy Spirit, he wanted the Holy Spirit also. (but his heart was wrong)
3- Deadly poison and picking up of snakes. I do not doubt the natural protection by God from this but on the spiritual side it is to do with words and or doctrine of the enemy. We are told to beware of the doctrine of the scribes and pharisees. These religious false teachers are in the midst of the church today and also can refer to other type of divinations and spirits. So these signs are the ability of discernment of spirits, protection of God and our authority over the enemy.

[FredFlanders]

Unsubstantiated assertions like this are reminiscent of the kind of rhetoric employed by cults.

T,
All of the gifts are part of Christ's body. If you speak against any of the gifts, you speak against Christ. This is exactly what the Antichrist does.

[FredFlanders]

I also believe this to be true although it does not explicitly prove the inerrancy of Mark 16. Far from it.

T,
Tell me exactly which part of Mark 16 does not fit in with the rest of the Bible.

[FredFlanders]

Sorry cubby, you can't brush away sound exegesis so easily. John was clearly speaking not of some individual person but of anyone who would deny Christ by refusing to exhibit to the other the radical love of Christ. Specifically he was writing into a context of gnosticism which claimed to have a "special" revelation or knowledge that perhaps others could not or would not receive. Which, interestingly enough, seems to always be the case with folks making threads like the one you started here.

God's Love always worked in conjunction with the gifts of the Spirit. Your type of love only follows Mary Poppins and ignores the rest of the Bible.

[FredFlanders]

Fred,

By "access to all the gifts", do you mean that each Christian is able to perform any of the gifts, on command, at any time?

Michael

Yes Michael,
But remember it is God that gives us the ability. By faith we activate the gifts in love to one another and not to glorify ourselves.

[Jin-Roh]

T,
Tell me exactly which part of Mark 16 does not fit in with the rest of the Bible.

Fred, I've been lurking on this thread for a bit.

You have the burden of proof on this matter. You invoked Mark 16, it was duly questioned, and someone asked you to provide evidence.

That's how discussions work.

I also think you're wrong about 1 John. It sounds to me like a deniel of the incarnation. This would make even more sense if he was talking about gnostics; who explictly denied the incarnation.

I also think that some of the language you use is the same language that cults use. If you're church is teaching you to think this way... well I'm not exactly sure what I'd do.

"Mind like a steel ball..." (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=116710&highlight=steel+ball)

[FredFlanders]

Do you realize that mind control cults (http://www.howcultswork.com/) operate with language like this? Fred, to begin with, I think you seriously need to analyze your church's behavior very carefully. I'm not saying you should give up your beliefs, but this type of language that puts other Christians who don't believe as you do on the same level as the antichrist is incredibly disturbing.

To begin, I don't believe that every believer has all the gifts because of the Scriptures that I have read. However, I would put charismatic gifts on a level that is non-essential. Basically, a person can be a Pentecostal or a cessationist and still be born-again. Where do you stand? Is believing in charismatic gifts essential or not?I show my faith by my works. Faith without works is dead. You cannot sit on the fence. If you believe then you operate the gifts. If you dont believe and speak against the gifts then you have the teachings of the Antichrist. If you call yourself a Christian then you will operate in the gifts of the Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

@Fred
The term "antichrist," which you derived from 1 John, was actually aimed at gnostics who denied that Jesus was a human being (among other doctrines).O, the Antichist denied OT signs in Jesus thus they did not reconize Him as the son of God. The same as the Antichrist do not reconize the signs or Christs body in believe today.

[timspong]

T,
I can agree with what you say about false signs and wonders so lets stay with the signs Jesus said will follow believers. By the way the word "follow" in Mark 16 means "to accompany one where ever you go.

1- Speaking in tongues. Came when the Holy Spirit was given for the first time on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2. In Acts 2 v 39 Peter said that this promise was to you and all that were afar off.
As you continue reading the book of Acts this account happened when believers received the Holy Spirit. Paul said in Corinthians that speaking in tongues edified him and was a sign to the unbeliever.
2- Casting out of Demons and healing of the sick you will see examples of this by Philip in Acts 8. When Simon saw this power was given to those who had the Holy Spirit and also to lay hands on others to recieve the Holy Spirit, he wanted the Holy Spirit also. (but his heart was wrong)
3- Deadly poison and picking up of snakes. I do not doubt the natural protection by God from this but on the spiritual side it is to do with words and or doctrine of the enemy. We are told to beware of the doctrine of the scribes and pharisees. These religious false teachers are in the midst of the church today and also can refer to other type of divinations and spirits. So these signs are the ability of discernment of spirits, protection of God and our authority over the enemy.

I don't deny the scriptural ingredients you are using, I am questioning your perception of them and how you are putting them together to form your conclusions. I suggest you brush up on your biblical hermeneutics. This exercise will give you an insight into where you are jumping to conclusions.

The charismatic movement is renowned for woeful lack of academic biblical training. Most dismiss any kind of theology as "the evil spirit of intellectualism". This is because core "word of faith" doctrines simply do not stand up to biblical scrutiny without severely twisting the clear meaning of scripture by allegorizing/spritualising the text to suit their beliefs.

It is much easier for them to simply dismiss the 2000 years of dedicated biblical study by extraordinarily gifted individuals as "the evil spirit of intellectualism" rather than prove their position to be academically viable.

I suggest this (http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible-All-Worth/dp/0310246040/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245226852&sr=8-1) book as a good introduction to biblical hermeneutics.

Gordon fee, one of the writers is an ordained charismatic pentecostal pastor so it is not anti charismatic at all but helps to put things in their proper perspective.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, I've been lurking on this thread for a bit.

You have the burden of proof on this matter. You invoked Mark 16, it was duly questioned, and someone asked you to provide evidence.

That's how discussions work.

I also think you're wrong about 1 John. It sounds to me like a deniel of the incarnation. This would make even more sense if he was talking about gnostics; who explictly denied the incarnation.

I also think that some of the language you use is the same language that cults use. If you're church is teaching you to think this way... well I'm not exactly sure what I'd do.

"Mind like a steel ball..." (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=116710&highlight=steel+ball)

JR, If you read all my posts in particular #23 you would have seen the proof of Mark 16 in scripture.

Now if you have scriptural evidence that Mark 16 does not comply with the Bible then show me scripture.

Any one who believes that a Church that operates in the Spiritual gifts the same as the Corinthian Church is a cult must be of the Antichrist School.

Are you some one who denies the working of all the Spiritual gifts in the Church?

[timspong]

T,
All of the gifts are part of Christ's body. If you speak against any of the gifts, you speak against Christ. This is exactly what the Antichrist does.

Nothing but opinion and unsubstantiated rhetoric.

[FredFlanders]

I don't deny the scriptural ingredients you are using, I am questioning your perception of them and how you are putting them together to form your conclusions. I suggest you brush up on your biblical hermeneutics. This exercise will give you an insight into where you are jumping to conclusions.

The charismatic movement is renowned for woeful lack of academic biblical training. Most dismiss any kind of theology as "the evil spirit of intellectualism". This is because core "word of faith" doctrines simply do not stand up to biblical scrutiny without severely twisting the clear meaning of scripture by allegorizing/spritualising the text to suit their beliefs.

It is much easier for them to simply dismiss the 2000 years of dedicated biblical study by extraordinarily gifted individuals as "the evil spirit of intellectualism" rather than prove their position to be academically viable.

I suggest this (http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible-All-Worth/dp/0310246040/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245226852&sr=8-1) book as a good introduction to biblical hermeneutics.

Gordon fee, one of the writers is an ordained charismatic pentecostal pastor so it is not anti charismatic at all but helps to put things in their proper perspective.

Tell me exactly what you do not agree with. If it is the fact that believers cannot operate All the gifts then tell me what gift you cannot operate and maybe I can give you some insight into the gift and how it operates? If it is that you do not believe in Mark 16 then tell me what part you dis agree with?

[timspong]

T,
Tell me exactly which part of Mark 16 does not fit in with the rest of the Bible.

Nowhere else in the bible do you have an explicit statement that says all believers will:

cast out demons
speak in new tongues
be immune from poison and snake bites
have the power of healing


Plus if you go back to the original greek there is an argument to suggest that these gifts were given to the 11 apostles only and not to those that they converted although most English translations do not leave the door open for that reading.

Another possibility is that this was a temporary gifting that was specifically required to kick start evangelism at that time and region where, language, demons, lack of medical facilities & snakes etc were tangible barriers to health, travel, communication and gospel proclamation. I don't think that 21st century USA has these same obstacles to evangelism. The main give we need now is discernment!!! as there is so much misinformation infesting our faith.

The safest thing to do is to compare Mark 16 with the other "great commission" narratives.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" (Matthew 28:18-20)

"and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”" (Luke 24:47-49)

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”" (Acts 1:8-9)

Now look at the huge difference with Mark 16:

"“Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”" (Mark 16:15-18)

[themuzicman]

Yes Michael,
But remember it is God that gives us the ability. By faith we activate the gifts in love to one another and not to glorify ourselves.

So, why are you not glorifying God and presenting signs and wonders with the gospel every day in the streets and hospitals, by healing them and casting out demons, as Paul did in Corinth and Thessolonica?

Michael

[Obsidian]

O, the Antichist denied OT signs in Jesus thus they did not reconize Him as the son of God. The same as the Antichrist do not reconize the signs or Christs body in believe today.

No, the antichrist gnostics accepted that Jesus was some sort of advanced spiritual being, but they denied his humanity (1 John 4:2-3). They also tended to reject orthodox ideas about what sin was, or if it existed at all, and tended to reject the God of the Old Testament. They were basically New Agers.

[Pilgrim]

God's Love always worked in conjunction with the gifts of the Spirit. Your type of love only follows Mary Poppins and ignores the rest of the Bible.

Hey brother, when you want to address the content of my post please let me know. Right now you're coming of rather shallow and a little bit cultic as T-shirt pointed out.

[Sparko]

T,
All of the gifts are part of Christ's body. If you speak against any of the gifts, you speak against Christ. This is exactly what the Antichrist does.

1. Cor 12:

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28629a)] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28629b)] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28649d)]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28650e)] the greater gifts.

Seems like we are not all the same PARTS of the body. We are all different parts, with different functions. And Paul clearly says that one gift is given to one person and another gift is given to another. No where does it say that everyone gets all the gifts.

[Jin-Roh]

JR, If you read all my posts in particular #23 you would have seen the proof of Mark 16 in scripture.

I think that you misunderstood the initial objection. The question is authenticity of Mark 16 in the first place. Was it originally in the gospel? or was it added later?

Now if you have scriptural evidence that Mark 16 does not comply with the Bible then show me scripture.

This criteria makes no sense.

Any one who believes that a Church that operates in the Spiritual gifts the same as the Corinthian Church is a cult must be of the Antichrist School.

"Mind like a steel ball. Nothing gets in or out...."

Are you some one who denies the working of all the Spiritual gifts in the Church?

I am not sure if I really want to answer your loaded question and affirm your presumption of your right to ask a "shillobeth" question.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

...do you mean shibboleth, Jin?

[Jin-Roh]

...do you mean shibboleth, Jin?

Yeah. I said it wrong. Do I get stoned now? I forget what happened in the Bible. :blush:

[Pilgrim]

Get stoned? Did they legalize that stuff where you live?

[JonathanDW]

Excuse me for butting into this conversation as I haven't had the opportunity to read every post. I'd like to give my comment on Mark 16. I do not question it's authenticity and I don't believe that Mark 16:17-20 proves the necessity of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts for today. I believe my point can be made within the Verse.

I believe that those signs did follow those who believed in order to "confirm the word" (verse 20) which was being preached.

I believe that the scriptures have been completed, confirmed and preached to all of creation (Col 1:23). Therefore they don't need anyone today to confirm them with these miracles. 1 Cor 13:10

I'd be willing to study the scriptures with anyone who can give me scriptural purposes for Miraculous Spiritual gifts today. I hope that ones interpretation will also harmonize with 2 Tim 3:16-17. I would also like to know how sufficient one would believe the scriptures to be.

It was also asked how denominating oneself from the church made him an Anti-Christ? I respond in that the characteristics of the Anti-Christ extend further than a denial of Jesus' deity. The entire epistle of 1 John is dedicated to exposing the Gnostic heresy of which were the anti-Christs. Division is that of the spirit of the Anti-Christ 1 John 2:19.

[FredFlanders]

So, why are you not glorifying God and presenting signs and wonders with the gospel every day in the streets and hospitals, by healing them and casting out demons, as Paul did in Corinth and Thessolonica?

Michael

Michael,
Jesus did not do this, nor do I. They always came to Jesus personally or Jesus could do an intercessory prayer for someone through other believers. It is not that I will not pray for some one in the street or in a hospital but it must be at their request.

[FredFlanders]

No, the antichrist gnostics accepted that Jesus was some sort of advanced spiritual being, but they denied his humanity (1 John 4:2-3). They also tended to reject orthodox ideas about what sin was, or if it existed at all, and tended to reject the God of the Old Testament. They were basically New Agers.

O, go onto verse 4-6 of 1 John 4 and you will see it is talking about Christ in our flesh and they that are in the world speak of the world and is not of God and hears us not.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[FredFlanders]

Nowhere else in the bible do you have an explicit statement that says all believers will:

cast out demons
speak in new tongues
be immune from poison and snake bites
have the power of healing


Plus if you go back to the original greek there is an argument to suggest that these gifts were given to the 11 apostles only and not to those that they converted although most English translations do not leave the door open for that reading.

Another possibility is that this was a temporary gifting that was specifically required to kick start evangelism at that time and region where, language, demons, lack of medical facilities & snakes etc were tangible barriers to health, travel, communication and gospel proclamation. I don't think that 21st century USA has these same obstacles to evangelism. The main give we need now is discernment!!! as there is so much misinformation infesting our faith.

The safest thing to do is to compare Mark 16 with the other "great commission" narratives.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" (Matthew 28:18-20)

"and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”" (Luke 24:47-49)

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”" (Acts 1:8-9)

Now look at the huge difference with Mark 16:

"“Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”" (Mark 16:15-18)

T, you are leaving out much of what I have said. "Follow" in Mark 16 meant to accompany one where ever he/she goes. And the promise of the Holy Spirit and power was for them and all afar off in Acts 2. You can wrestle with the scriptures/God as much as you want but you will not find the answer unless you you accept the gifts with meekness and humility and seek them. Then you will only know that the fullness of Christ's body can be in usand Mark 16 is alive today.

[FredFlanders]

Hey brother, when you want to address the content of my post please let me know. Right now you're coming of rather shallow and a little bit cultic as T-shirt pointed out.

P,
What was the first act of love Jesus told us to do after His resurrection? I will give you a clue in the following scriptures.

If you love me you will keep my commandments.

Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[FredFlanders]

1. Cor 12:

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28629a)] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28629b)] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28649d)]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28650e)] the greater gifts.

Seems like we are not all the same PARTS of the body. We are all different parts, with different functions. And Paul clearly says that one gift is given to one person and another gift is given to another. No where does it say that everyone gets all the gifts.

S,
I answered these scriptures in Thread "You receive all the gifts of the Spirit when you receive the Holy Spirit."

[FredFlanders]

I think that you misunderstood the initial objection. The question is authenticity of Mark 16 in the first place. Was it originally in the gospel? or was it added later?



This criteria makes no sense.



"Mind like a steel ball. Nothing gets in or out...."



I am not sure if I really want to answer your loaded question and affirm your presumption of your right to ask a "shillobeth" question.JR, you are following the same line as timpsong. I provide the same answer. You are leaving out much of what I have said. "Follow" in Mark 16 meant to accompany one where ever he/she goes. And the promise of the Holy Spirit and power was for them and all afar off in Acts 2. You can wrestle with the scriptures/God as much as you want but you will not find the answer unless you you accept the gifts with meekness and humility and seek them. Then you will only know that the fullness of Christ's body can be in usand Mark 16 is alive today.

[FredFlanders]

Excuse me for butting into this conversation as I haven't had the opportunity to read every post. I'd like to give my comment on Mark 16. I do not question it's authenticity and I don't believe that Mark 16:17-20 proves the necessity of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts for today. I believe my point can be made within the Verse.

I believe that those signs did follow those who believed in order to "confirm the word" (verse 20) which was being preached.

I believe that the scriptures have been completed, confirmed and preached to all of creation (Col 1:23). Therefore they don't need anyone today to confirm them with these miracles. 1 Cor 13:10

I'd be willing to study the scriptures with anyone who can give me scriptural purposes for Miraculous Spiritual gifts today. I hope that ones interpretation will also harmonize with 2 Tim 3:16-17. I would also like to know how sufficient one would believe the scriptures to be.

It was also asked how denominating oneself from the church made him an Anti-Christ? I respond in that the characteristics of the Anti-Christ extend further than a denial of Jesus' deity. The entire epistle of 1 John is dedicated to exposing the Gnostic heresy of which were the anti-Christs. Division is that of the spirit of the Anti-Christ 1 John 2:19.

JDW,
The necessity of the Spiritual gifts for today are used to take back what has been stolen from us by the enemy. We are in a spiritual warfare against spiritual wickedness. It is only the body of Christ and all of the gifts in us that can give us victory over the enemy.

Col 1 v 23 Faith is in the whole Gospel including all the gifts and not just part of the Gospel. Acts 1 tells us that power would fall on those that received the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 v 39 tells us this promise is to all and those that are afar off, to as many that are called. God is still calling us into the faith. Acts 2 v 43, tells us that signs and wonders accompany the preaching of the Gospel.

1 Cor 13 v 10. Knowledge, Prophesy and tongues have not ceased. When what is perfect comes, will be when we are in our new spiritual bodies and we can see our Lord face to face. We can only see a slight reflection to what is to come and that is quite obvious to every one.

2 Tim 3 v 16-17. If all scripture is given for our good we cannot leave out some or all the spiritual gifts.

1 John 2 v 19. I agree they left the Church because they could not agree on the doctrine of Christ and the NT covenant they were to walk in.

[JonathanDW]

JDW,
The necessity of the Spiritual gifts for today are used to take back what has been stolen from us by the enemy. We are in a spiritual warfare against spiritual wickedness. It is only the body of Christ and all of the gifts in us that can give us victory over the enemy.

I definitly believe that we are in a spiritual battle. Since it is a spiritual battle why do we need physical miracles?

What exactly is being stolen from us? Just because there's a decline in true Christian converts it does not mean that the church is being stolen. Jesus said the gates of Hades will not prevail against his church.

I believe that the scriptures are all sufficient for this spiritual battle as they instruct us in all principles of life.

Col 1 v 23 Faith is in the whole Gospel including all the gifts and not just part of the Gospel. Acts 1 tells us that power would fall on those that received the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 v 39 tells us this promise is to all and those that are afar off, to as many that are called. God is still calling us into the faith. Acts 2 v 43, tells us that signs and wonders accompany the preaching of the Gospel.

The point I was making with this verse is that the gospel has already been preached to all of creation. Therefore, it does not need to be confirmed again throughout the world due to a decline in Christianity. Sorry for the miscommunication.

1 Cor 13 v 10. Knowledge, Prophesy and tongues have not ceased. When what is perfect comes, will be when we are in our new spiritual bodies and we can see our Lord face to face. We can only see a slight reflection to what is to come and that is quite obvious to every one.

I would disagree with your interpretation as I believe that we see ourselves in the 'Mirror" spoken of in that passage and not Jesus. Now that the full revelation of God has come and the mysteries of Christ have been revealed we can now see ourselves face to face. Being made known who we really are. That is, unworthy and undeserving of salvation etc.

2 Tim 3 v 16-17. If all scripture is given for our good we cannot leave out some or all the spiritual gifts.

Not only is it given for our good but it's given in order to furnish a man unto every good work. What good work could be left out that we must need to use Miraculous spiritual gifts?

1 John 2 v 19. I agree they left the Church because they could not agree on the doctrine of Christ and the NT covenant they were to walk in.

Agreed. We just disagree what that NT covenant is.

[themuzicman]

Tell me exactly what you do not agree with. If it is the fact that believers cannot operate All the gifts then tell me what gift you cannot operate and maybe I can give you some insight into the gift and how it operates? If it is that you do not believe in Mark 16 then tell me what part you dis agree with?

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

The obvious answer, given the context, to these questions is "NO." If PAUL tells you that not all have the gift of healing and not all speak in tongues and not all interpret, who are you to disagree with him?

Michael

[Sparko]

S,
I answered these scriptures in Thread "You receive all the gifts of the Spirit when you receive the Holy Spirit."

can you post a link to that answer for me?

and you should stop starting multiple threads on almost the same topic. It gets confusing.

[themuzicman]

Michael,
Jesus did not do this, nor do I. They always came to Jesus personally or Jesus could do an intercessory prayer for someone through other believers. It is not that I will not pray for some one in the street or in a hospital but it must be at their request.

That's not what Peter and John did:

1One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.

6Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

And, in fact, Jesus did heal those who did not ask:

30Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. 31So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.

No asking or approaching, here.

In John 5:

6When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" 7"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." 8Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk."

Clearly this man did not ask for healing.

And apparently Paul worked the same way, as he describes preaching the gospel, not with fancy words, but with the Power of the Holy Spirit. See 1 Corinthians 2 and 1 Thessalonians 1. The power of God went before them as they preached the gospel.

Where is the power of God going before you in preaching the gospel, reaching out to the sick and infirm to heal them?

If you are following Jesus' example, why are you not in the streets and hospitals preaching the power of God to them, drawing them to God so they might be healed?

If you are following Christ's example and you have control of all the gifts, certainly you can point to some example where you have healed some sick person without their asking you, can you not?

Have you not read 1 Corinthians 13? If you can do all miracles, but have not love, you are nothing. Where is your love and compassion for the sick and infirm? Do you not at least go out and preach and do signs and wonders, as Christ and Peter and Paul did, so that more will come to you for healing?

Or have you no compassion on the sick and the lost?

Michael

[Obsidian]

Fred, you have a rather far-fetched interpretation of 1 John 4:2-3. For one thing, we know that the people John was referring to did not believe that Jesus had a physical body. For another thing, believers receive the Holy Spirit in their flesh, not Jesus himself. There is a difference.

[Pilgrim]

I definitly believe that we are in a spiritual battle. Since it is a spiritual battle why do we need physical miracles?

Love this. Absolutely love it. Good stuff there man.

[Adrift]

I definitly believe that we are in a spiritual battle. Since it is a spiritual battle why do we need physical miracles?Love this. Absolutely love it. Good stuff there man.

Wait, I don't get this. Are all the gifts of the spirit necessarily physical miracles? The gifts of the spirit are:

word of wisdom / message of wisdom, 1Cor 12:8
word of knowledge / message of knowledge, 1 Cor 12:8
faith, 1 Cor 12:9
gifts of healing, 1 Cor 12:9, 12:28
miracles / miraculous powers, 1 Cor 12:10, 12:28
prophecy / prophesying / prophets, 1 Cor 12:10, 1 Cor 12:28, Rom 12:6, Eph 4:11
discernment of spirits / distinguishing of spirits, 1 Cor 12:10
speaking in tongues / varieties of tongues / speaking in different kinds of tongues, 1 Cor 12:10
interpretation of tongues, 1 Cor 12:10

Not all of these are necessarily miraculous manifestations and all of them are spiritual in nature and certainly seem beneficial in spiritual battle.

I don't agree with Fred's view that the antichrist is in those who deny that Christians can work in these gifts today, but let's not go overboard.

[Obsidian]

You're leaving out some, Adrift

6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[b]faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

And also, Samson's strength was arguably a spiritual gift.

[Adrift]

You're leaving out some, Adrift

We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[b]faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

And also, Samson's strength was arguably a spiritual gift.

I think the gifts in Romans are traditionally distinguished from the gifts of the spirit as "gifts of grace"... Not sure if there's any real distinction though. :shrug: Samson's gift of strength is a pretty interesting case. Thanks for bringing it to mind.

[Obsidian]

Well he specifically lists "prophecy" and "teaching" in Romans. These would seem to be analogous to prophecy and wisdom in 1 Corinthians. I don't buy the idea that all spiritual gifts are supposed to be spectacular and amazing. In Corinthians, he even lists "faith" as a spiritual gift. What specifically this faith (or faithfulness) involved is anybody's guess, but apparently it was better than the faith exhibited by other Christians. Regardless, I don't think "faith" is all that glamorous and spectacular, the way healing or speaking another language would be.

[Pilgrim]

Wait, I don't get this. Are all the gifts of the spirit necessarily physical miracles? The gifts of the spirit are:

word of wisdom / message of wisdom, 1Cor 12:8
word of knowledge / message of knowledge, 1 Cor 12:8
faith, 1 Cor 12:9
gifts of healing, 1 Cor 12:9, 12:28
miracles / miraculous powers, 1 Cor 12:10, 12:28
prophecy / prophesying / prophets, 1 Cor 12:10, 1 Cor 12:28, Rom 12:6, Eph 4:11
discernment of spirits / distinguishing of spirits, 1 Cor 12:10
speaking in tongues / varieties of tongues / speaking in different kinds of tongues, 1 Cor 12:10
interpretation of tongues, 1 Cor 12:10

Not all of these are necessarily miraculous manifestations and all of them are spiritual in nature and certainly seem beneficial in spiritual battle.

I don't agree with Fred's view that the antichrist is in those who deny that Christians can work in these gifts today, but let's not go overboard.

I totally agree with you. I just like the phrase itself given that so much of western Christianity rests its faith on miracles. Calvin was right when he indicated that persevering in the midst of any given circumstance and in the absence of the miraculous is a stronger witness to faith than is a faith that requires miracles.

[Adrift]

Well he specifically lists "prophecy" and "teaching" in Romans. These would seem to be analogous to prophecy and wisdom in 1 Corinthians. I don't buy the idea that all spiritual gifts are supposed to be spectacular and amazing. In Corinthians, he even lists "faith" as a spiritual gift. What specifically this faith (or faithfulness) involved is anybody's guess, but apparently it was better than the faith exhibited by other Christians. Regardless, I don't think "faith" is all that glamorous and spectacular, the way healing or speaking another language would be.

Hmm. Good points Obsidian.

[Adrift]

I totally agree with you. I just like the phrase itself given that so much of western Christianity rests its faith on miracles. Calvin was right when he indicated that persevering in the midst of any given circumstance and in the absence of the miraculous is a stronger witness to faith than is a faith that requires miracles.

I understand. But, and I've mentioned this in another thread on a similar subject recently, I suppose my concern is that there seems to be a rift in the church right now in the West where one half is constantly looking after a spiritual sign, while the other (possibly greater) half doesn't believe God manifests spiritually at all anymore. But yeah, I understand Calvin's point. :yes:

[FredFlanders]

I definitly believe that we are in a spiritual battle. Since it is a spiritual battle why do we need physical miracles?

What exactly is being stolen from us? Just because there's a decline in true Christian converts it does not mean that the church is being stolen. Jesus said the gates of Hades will not prevail against his church.

I believe that the scriptures are all sufficient for this spiritual battle as they instruct us in all principles of life.



The point I was making with this verse is that the gospel has already been preached to all of creation. Therefore, it does not need to be confirmed again throughout the world due to a decline in Christianity. Sorry for the miscommunication.



I would disagree with your interpretation as I believe that we see ourselves in the 'Mirror" spoken of in that passage and not Jesus. Now that the full revelation of God has come and the mysteries of Christ have been revealed we can now see ourselves face to face. Being made known who we really are. That is, unworthy and undeserving of salvation etc.



Not only is it given for our good but it's given in order to furnish a man unto every good work. What good work could be left out that we must need to use Miraculous spiritual gifts?



Agreed. We just disagree what that NT covenant is.


JDW, Why would God give Jesus and His believers the gift of healing or deliverence if we did not need physical miracles. You continue to question God with you carnal thinking.

Physical and mental health are just two items that have been stolen from man.

Satan has such deception he steals from man with out them even realizing. God is a Spirit and so is Satan. We use God’s Spirit to defeat the spirit of Satan.

At the moment you are using your fleshly knowledge to fight your fleshly principles in life.

I cannot agree with you here. Knowledge, Prophesy and Tongues have certainly not past away. And what is perfect has not come either as I said that will be our new spiritual body.

Are you saying healing and deliverance is not good? Are you saying building our selves up in Christ by praying in tongues is not good?

[FredFlanders]

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

The obvious answer, given the context, to these questions is "NO." If PAUL tells you that not all have the gift of healing and not all speak in tongues and not all interpret, who are you to disagree with him?

Michael

M,
The obvious answer is yes. Why would Paul in 1 Cor 14 v 1 tell us to desire and cultivate the gifts if we could not receive them with the Holy Spirit.
It is obvious you and many others here have not been empowered by the Holy Spirit as yet because if you were you would know you can receive them.

[FredFlanders]

can you post a link to that answer for me?

and you should stop starting multiple threads on almost the same topic. It gets confusing.

Sparko this thread is to reveal the Antichrist but yes it does includes the gifts.

1 Cor 12 v 7 clearly states that the Spirit is givens to every man (not just some) for the profit of all. It is a verse many leave out to prove their point that we only are given some of the manifestations of the Spirit.

We are told to covet the gifts. Do you really think we cannot receive the gifts after we are told to covet them. Faith without works is dead.

Chapters 11,12,13 & 14 of 1 Cor. deals with when the Church meets together and shows an example of how to conduct a meeting. (How ever most churches take little notice of this example today.) In that context Paul was telling the leaders of the Corinthian Church when you all meet together different people will manifest the manifestations of the Spirit. The manifestations of the Spirit is not given to one to do on his own nor is it done for all to do at the meeting but to several believers usually those more skilled and accomplished in the manifestations of the Spirit. The purpose of the gifts are for the profit of all at the meeting. For healing and deliverance. And at a meeting there will be newly converted Spirit filled Christians who will learn how the gifts operate so they can operate them themselves. (as all can by faith) Or there will be non believers present so the Church is told not to all speak in tongues at once because this would seem silly to them but let it be done 2 or 3 times plus interpretation and prophesy.

The human body is used as an analogy of the Spiritual body we receive and goes on to say that that the Spiritual body we receive has many working parts (many members) and is not just one member but many. We also cannot say that that I have no need of thee (any of the parts of the Spiritual body) as they all have a necessary function and compliment each other. And tells us to covet the gifts and I will show you a more excellent way.
Many read these scriptures as each part of the body as being one person which is incorrect. It is one body (or one person) having many members (or spiritual manifestations).

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[Sparko]

The body is the Body of Christ, the church that is being spoken of. Paul clearly says that to one a specific gift is given and to another one another gift is given. That means that everyone doesnt get every gift.

PS why covet other gifts if you already have them?

[FredFlanders]

That's not what Peter and John did:

1One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.

6Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

And, in fact, Jesus did heal those who did not ask:

30Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. 31So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.

No asking or approaching, here.

In John 5:

6When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" 7"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." 8Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk."

Clearly this man did not ask for healing.

And apparently Paul worked the same way, as he describes preaching the gospel, not with fancy words, but with the Power of the Holy Spirit. See 1 Corinthians 2 and 1 Thessalonians 1. The power of God went before them as they preached the gospel.

Where is the power of God going before you in preaching the gospel, reaching out to the sick and infirm to heal them?

If you are following Jesus' example, why are you not in the streets and hospitals preaching the power of God to them, drawing them to God so they might be healed?

If you are following Christ's example and you have control of all the gifts, certainly you can point to some example where you have healed some sick person without their asking you, can you not?

Have you not read 1 Corinthians 13? If you can do all miracles, but have not love, you are nothing. Where is your love and compassion for the sick and infirm? Do you not at least go out and preach and do signs and wonders, as Christ and Peter and Paul did, so that more will come to you for healing?

Or have you no compassion on the sick and the lost?

Michael


Michael,
You raise some good points here about the scriptures and you will see that the one wanting healing excepts the commandments of the Disciple of Christ and has their attention.
I do not want to glory in what I have done other that Christ. I am not going to justify myself to you or any one else.
In meetings where healing and deliverace has taken place that I attended many have been healed. They were once in the Antichrist teaching but now filled with the Holy Spirit and now ministering all the gifts of the Spirit. And I must say that some did not have our attention at first certainly did after the Glory of God came into the meetings and now have converted to Christianity.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you have a rather far-fetched interpretation of 1 John 4:2-3. For one thing, we know that the people John was referring to did not believe that Jesus had a physical body. For another thing, believers receive the Holy Spirit in their flesh, not Jesus himself. There is a difference.

O,
The Holy Spirit has all the characteristics as Christ and when we are filled with the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit teaches us Christ and we are able to operate as Christ did through this power. The Antichrists deny this power which is manifested in the gifts of the Spirit.

John 17 v 20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[Obsidian]

So in the very same verse, 1 John 4:2, John refers to the "Spirit of God," yet you want me to understand "Jesus Christ come in the flesh" to actually mean the Holy Spirit?

In any case, I don't know of any Christians who deny that believers have the Holy Spirit, so this entire "antichrist" accusation is pointless.

[Jin-Roh]

JR, you are following the same line as timpsong. I provide the same answer. You are leaving out much of what I have said. "Follow" in Mark 16 meant to accompany one where ever he/she goes.

Again, you clearly do not understand the initial objection.

And the promise of the Holy Spirit and power was for them and all afar off in Acts 2. You can wrestle with the scriptures/God as much as you want but you will not find the answer unless you you accept the gifts with meekness and humility and seek them.

I do not deny spiritual gifts.

Then you will only know that the fullness of Christ's body can be in usand Mark 16 is alive today.

Sorry. I'm still riding the circle in your head.

[JonathanDW]

JDW, Why would God give Jesus and His believers the gift of healing or deliverence if we did not need physical miracles. You continue to question God with you carnal thinking.

As the Bible says: In order to confirm the words being spoken. "Purpose" seems to be the roots of this argument. I believe if we pursue this topic we will discover more closely how you feel about the scriptures.

Physical and mental health are just two items that have been stolen from man.

Satan has such deception he steals from man with out them even realizing. God is a Spirit and so is Satan. We use God’s Spirit to defeat the spirit of Satan.

At the moment you are using your fleshly knowledge to fight your fleshly principles in life.

Sir, I'm only trying to find answers to my Bible questions. God does not shun studying the scriptures.

I cannot agree with you here. Knowledge, Prophesy and Tongues have certainly not past away. And what is perfect has not come either as I said that will be our new spiritual body.

I believe if we study the "purpose" of spiritual gifts we'll unravel this verse (1 Cor 13:10).

Are you saying healing and deliverance is not good? Are you saying building our selves up in Christ by praying in tongues is not good?

No one said they were not good. Nor am I questioning the power of God. The question of debate is their purpose. I believe if we study the scriptures we can find that their purpose has been fulfilled and thus they have passed away just as the old law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

[JonathanDW]

Michael,
I am not going to justify myself to you or any one else.


Sir this is the purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts. Mark 16:20 Hebrews 2:3,4

I can't emphasize "purpose" enough. The "why" must be answered before we can build a theology around Miraculous Spiritual Gifts.

[themuzicman]

M,
The obvious answer is yes. Why would Paul in 1 Cor 14 v 1 tell us to desire and cultivate the gifts if we could not receive them with the Holy Spirit.
It is obvious you and many others here have not been empowered by the Holy Spirit as yet because if you were you would know you can receive them.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Fred, but the obvious answer is "NO." If we are to pursue gifts, that means we don't already have them. Furthermore, Paul doesn't say to pursue ALL the gifts, but only the greater gifts, and from the remainder of Chapter 14, he's speaking specifically of prophecy being greater than tongues.

Furthermore, Paul has just finished discussing diversity in gifts through the metaphor of the body of Christ, making a point to say that those gifts which are not as "presentable" have special honor. So it is clear that not everyone receives all the gifts, both from chapter 12 and the portion you've already cited.

Michael

[Adrift]

I believe if we study the scriptures we can find that their purpose has been fulfilled and thus they have passed away just as the old law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

This is not really agreed on by all Christians. Its certainly not something I agree with.

[John Reece]

I believe if we study the scriptures we can find that their purpose has been fulfilled and thus they have passed away just as the old law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

The "old law" has not passed away, and neither have the charismata and pneumatika of the Spirit.

Do you presuppose that there is no longer a biblical law against murder, theft, adultery, coveting, etc., etc.? Do you disregard the Old Testament as obsolete? Does your Bible consist solely of the New Testament?

You may presuppose that the the charismata and pneumatika of the Spirit were abrogated almost as soon as they were made manifest in the first century; however, reality and sound exegesis are neither bound nor determined by your presupposition.

I'll have nothing more to say in this thread because I do not share the belief of the thread starter, as well as the fact that this is off-topic in this thread. If you wish to pursue this in another thread, I may consider responding there, if I do not decide to start a thread of my own.

[Obsidian]

John Reece, it's pretty standard Christian theology to say that the old law has "passed away" in at least some sense.

[Jin-Roh]

Sir this is the purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts. Mark 16:20 Hebrews 2:3,4

I can't emphasize "purpose" enough. The "why" must be answered before we can build a theology around Miraculous Spiritual Gifts.

One can understand the need for a "purpose" of miracles (especially the miracles of Jesus) without being a cessionist. I can't stand "firework" miracles that are often found at mega churches and the weirdo charismatic churches. Despite that, I still believe in all the gifts in principle.

[FredFlanders]

The body is the Body of Christ, the church that is being spoken of. Paul clearly says that to one a specific gift is given and to another one another gift is given. That means that everyone doesnt get every gift.

PS why covet other gifts if you already have them?

Sparco,
We are to believe all things and to prove all things. Faith is no good without works. Covet, desire and cultivate the gifts.

John 14 v 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

We are told in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestation of the spirit is given to ALL to profit with all.

Paul was talking to the Corinthian Church who were a dis organised and a confused mess in their Church meetings. Many people had much to say and the meetings were out of order . So Paul was telling them that one should have a word of wisdom, to one knowlege, to one healing, two or three speaking in tongues and not all at once etc. so things are done decently and in order.

We have access to ALL the gifts when we recieve the Holy Spirit. (we all drink out of the same spiritual drink) Some of the gifts come very naturally and easily to some because they understand the operation of them though what they have observed within the meetings before. Some gifts don't but we need to understand how they operate and take steps of faith to perfect them. Many new comers to the True Church of Christ that have not seen the gifts in operation before may take longer again to activate the gifts but all can through faith. Faith can come by hearing the Word of God and can be built up by praying in the Spirit (tongues)

Many believers do not fall into the true Church of Jesus but fall into Religious traditional garbage. The True Church will teach the full Gospel message and the Body of Christ or His Characteristics which will include all the gifts of the Spirit.

Many believers also are under the false impression that they have the Holy Spirit when in actual fact they have just repented and the walked into the Church of the Antichrist that speaks against the Body of Christ and the gift He said we would have.

Matt13 v 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

When you recieve the Holy Spirit, POWER comes upon you to do the works of Christ. Do not let anyone decieve you.

[FredFlanders]

So in the very same verse, 1 John 4:2, John refers to the "Spirit of God," yet you want me to understand "Jesus Christ come in the flesh" to actually mean the Holy Spirit?

In any case, I don't know of any Christians who deny that believers have the Holy Spirit, so this entire "antichrist" accusation is pointless.

O,
Not all believers have the Holy Spirit. Only the one who have the Power fall upon them.
Many believers do not fall into the true Church of Jesus but fall into Religious traditional garbage. The True Church will teach the full Gospel message and the Body of Christ or His Characteristics which will include all the gifts of the Spirit.

Many believers also are under the false impression that they have the Holy Spirit when in actual fact they have just repented and the walked into the Church of the Antichrist that speaks against the Body of Christ and the gift He said we would have.

Matt13 v 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

When you recieve the Holy Spirit, POWER comes upon you to do the works of Christ. Do not let anyone decieve you.

The Antichrist deny's the Power of the Holy Spirit coming into man.

John 14 v 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[FredFlanders]

Again, you clearly do not understand the initial objection.



I do not deny spiritual gifts.



Sorry. I'm still riding the circle in your head.

JR,
I understood your initial objection and answered it in post 23. And stated to you that Mark 16 complies with the rest of the Bible. If you want me to provide more evidence other than to have a personal experience of the power of God to prove Mark 16 then tell me exactly what else you are looking for.
If I mis interpreted what you are saying to me then I am sorry but you need to make your point clear to me so I understand what you are saying.

[FredFlanders]

Sorry to burst your bubble, Fred, but the obvious answer is "NO." If we are to pursue gifts, that means we don't already have them. Furthermore, Paul doesn't say to pursue ALL the gifts, but only the greater gifts, and from the remainder of Chapter 14, he's speaking specifically of prophecy being greater than tongues.

Furthermore, Paul has just finished discussing diversity in gifts through the metaphor of the body of Christ, making a point to say that those gifts which are not as "presentable" have special honor. So it is clear that not everyone receives all the gifts, both from chapter 12 and the portion you've already cited.

Michael

Michael,
I am sending you the same post as Sparco as it will address your points.
We are to believe all things and to prove all things. Faith is no good without works. Covet, desire and cultivate the gifts.

John 14 v 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

We are told in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestation of the spirit is given to ALL to profit with all.

Paul was talking to the Corinthian Church who were a dis organised and a confused mess in their Church meetings. Many people had much to say and the meetings were out of order . So Paul was telling them that one should have a word of wisdom, to one knowlege, to one healing, two or three speaking in tongues and not all at once etc. so things are done decently and in order.

We have access to ALL the gifts when we recieve the Holy Spirit. (we all drink out of the same spiritual drink) Some of the gifts come very naturally and easily to some because they understand the operation of them though what they have observed within the meetings before. Some gifts don't but we need to understand how they operate and take steps of faith to perfect them. Many new comers to the True Church of Christ that have not seen the gifts in operation before may take longer again to activate the gifts but all can through faith. Faith can come by hearing the Word of God and can be built up by praying in the Spirit (tongues)

Many believers do not fall into the true Church of Jesus but fall into Religious traditional garbage. The True Church will teach the full Gospel message and the Body of Christ or His Characteristics which will include all the gifts of the Spirit.

Many believers also are under the false impression that they have the Holy Spirit when in actual fact they have just repented and the walked into the Church of the Antichrist that speaks against the Body of Christ and the gift He said we would have.

Matt13 v 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

When you recieve the Holy Spirit, POWER comes upon you to do the works of Christ. Do not let anyone decieve you.

[FredFlanders]

Sir this is the purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts. Mark 16:20 Hebrews 2:3,4

I can't emphasize "purpose" enough. The "why" must be answered before we can build a theology around Miraculous Spiritual Gifts.

JDW,

All gifts are manifestations of Christ including using knowledge and wisdom correctly. Most don't and do not glorify Christ.
All gifts are to glorify Christ and bring believers back into the Kingdom of God. "That's why"

[Jin-Roh]

JR,
I understood your initial objection and answered it in post 23. And stated to you that Mark 16 complies with the rest of the Bible.

Well, the objection was that very Mark 16 is not found in very many of the earliest sources. So people think it it may have been a late addition. If it is a later addition, it should probably not be considered "on par" when it comes to authority, with the rest of Mark, much less the rest of the Gospels, and much less the rest of the NT.

Saying that it "fits" doesn't really cut it. When was it written? By whom? If it was added, why?

If you want me to provide more evidence other than to have a personal experience of the power of God to prove Mark 16 then tell me exactly what else you are looking for.

I am looking for cogent, honest, and non-loaded/circular argument.

If I mis interpreted what you are saying to me then I am sorry but you need to make your point clear to me so I understand what you are saying.

See above.

[themuzicman]

Michael,
I am sending you the same post as Sparco as it will address your points.
We are to believe all things and to prove all things. Faith is no good without works. Covet, desire and cultivate the gifts.

John 14 v 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

First, this portion of John isn't speaking of the charismatic gifts.

Second, all this is hinged upon "IN MY NAME", which in context refer to acting in God's will.

We are told in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestation of the spirit is given to ALL to profit with all.[/quote

Then why does Paul say:

8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Notice the distinguishing between persons who operate in the various gifts. This one gets X, another one gets Y.

You also ignore this verse:

11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The gifts are controlled and exercised by the Spirit through us. They are His operation, HIS control. All we can do is allow Him to work through us when HE wills.

[quote]Paul was talking to the Corinthian Church who were a dis organised and a confused mess in their Church meetings. Many people had much to say and the meetings were out of order . So Paul was telling them that one should have a word of wisdom, to one knowlege, to one healing, two or three speaking in tongues and not all at once etc. so things are done decently and in order.

You're confusing the chapters. Chapter 14 is about the confusion with regard to tongues and prophecy. Chapter 12 is about folks asserting spiritual superiority because they spoke in tongues, and others did not.

We have access to ALL the gifts when we recieve the Holy Spirit. (we all drink out of the same spiritual drink) Some of the gifts come very naturally and easily to some because they understand the operation of them though what they have observed within the meetings before. Some gifts don't but we need to understand how they operate and take steps of faith to perfect them. Many new comers to the True Church of Christ that have not seen the gifts in operation before may take longer again to activate the gifts but all can through faith. Faith can come by hearing the Word of God and can be built up by praying in the Spirit (tongues)


This is the other half of your confusion. The Holy Spirit is not a vending machine. We cannot command the Holy Spirit to heal someone. The Holy Spirit commands us as HE wills, not as we will.

Many believers do not fall into the true Church of Jesus but fall into Religious traditional garbage. The True Church will teach the full Gospel message and the Body of Christ or His Characteristics which will include all the gifts of the Spirit.


You'd better start looking, then.

Many believers also are under the false impression that they have the Holy Spirit when in actual fact they have just repented and the walked into the Church of the Antichrist that speaks against the Body of Christ and the gift He said we would have.


Well, if blaspheming the Holy Spirit is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan, you're doing it.

Matt13 v 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.


So, the gospel is the charismatic gifts?

When you recieve the Holy Spirit, POWER comes upon you to do the works of Christ. Do not let anyone decieve you.

That's fine, no disagreement there. But don't you be deceived by modern day Corinthians who thought that operating in the spiritual gifts was the peak of spiritual maturity. You might want to check out chapter 13.

Michael

[JonathanDW]

JDW,

All gifts are manifestations of Christ including using knowledge and wisdom correctly. Most don't and do not glorify Christ.
All gifts are to glorify Christ and bring believers back into the Kingdom of God. "That's why"

Could you find the time to build a scriptural case for this so that we may discuss this?

Thanks,

Jonathan

[Sparko]

Sparco,
We are to believe all things and to prove all things. Faith is no good without works. Covet, desire and cultivate the gifts.

John 14 v 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

We are told in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestation of the spirit is given to ALL to profit with all.

Paul was talking to the Corinthian Church who were a dis organised and a confused mess in their Church meetings. Many people had much to say and the meetings were out of order . So Paul was telling them that one should have a word of wisdom, to one knowlege, to one healing, two or three speaking in tongues and not all at once etc. so things are done decently and in order.

We have access to ALL the gifts when we recieve the Holy Spirit. (we all drink out of the same spiritual drink) Some of the gifts come very naturally and easily to some because they understand the operation of them though what they have observed within the meetings before. Some gifts don't but we need to understand how they operate and take steps of faith to perfect them. Many new comers to the True Church of Christ that have not seen the gifts in operation before may take longer again to activate the gifts but all can through faith. Faith can come by hearing the Word of God and can be built up by praying in the Spirit (tongues)

Many believers do not fall into the true Church of Jesus but fall into Religious traditional garbage. The True Church will teach the full Gospel message and the Body of Christ or His Characteristics which will include all the gifts of the Spirit.

Many believers also are under the false impression that they have the Holy Spirit when in actual fact they have just repented and the walked into the Church of the Antichrist that speaks against the Body of Christ and the gift He said we would have.

Matt13 v 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

When you recieve the Holy Spirit, POWER comes upon you to do the works of Christ. Do not let anyone decieve you.

Why do you keep quoting 1 cor 12:7, but ignoring the next verses and the previous ones? Could it be that they disagree with you?

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.





The spirit gives miracles to one person, and to another discerning spirits, etc.



The spirit decides who gets which gifts. NOT YOU. and if he wants you to have all of the gifts then you will have them. If not then you won't.


Paul is very clear on this. It sounds to me that you lack the gift of discernment.

[FredFlanders]

Well, the objection was that very Mark 16 is not found in very many of the earliest sources. So people think it it may have been a late addition. If it is a later addition, it should probably not be considered "on par" when it comes to authority, with the rest of Mark, much less the rest of the Gospels, and much less the rest of the NT.

Saying that it "fits" doesn't really cut it. When was it written? By whom? If it was added, why?



I am looking for cogent, honest, and non-loaded/circular argument.


See above.JR, you said you beleive in the gifts. All the signs in mark 16 are gifts. Are you saying you are a man of faith but no works. Show God your faith by your works and you will get your proof of Mark 16.

[Obsidian]

Well you're pretty clearly adding to the gospel at this point, Fred, so I'm not gonna bother arguing with you any further. You are deluded.

[FredFlanders]

First, this portion of John isn't speaking of the charismatic gifts.

Second, all this is hinged upon "IN MY NAME", which in context refer to acting in God's will.

[quote]We are told in 1 Cor 12 v 7 that the manifestation of the spirit is given to ALL to profit with all.[/quote

Then why does Paul say:

8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Notice the distinguishing between persons who operate in the various gifts. This one gets X, another one gets Y.

You also ignore this verse:

11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The gifts are controlled and exercised by the Spirit through us. They are His operation, HIS control. All we can do is allow Him to work through us when HE wills.



You're confusing the chapters. Chapter 14 is about the confusion with regard to tongues and prophecy. Chapter 12 is about folks asserting spiritual superiority because they spoke in tongues, and others did not.



This is the other half of your confusion. The Holy Spirit is not a vending machine. We cannot command the Holy Spirit to heal someone. The Holy Spirit commands us as HE wills, not as we will.



You'd better start looking, then.



Well, if blaspheming the Holy Spirit is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan, you're doing it.



So, the gospel is the charismatic gifts?



That's fine, no disagreement there. But don't you be deceived by modern day Corinthians who thought that operating in the spiritual gifts was the peak of spiritual maturity. You might want to check out chapter 13.

Michael

Michael,
Look at John 14 v 1 and you will see that Jesus said the works that I do shall you shall do also. This is the whole character of Christ which includes all the miraculous gifts he did.

The same is said in 1 John 4 v 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

When God fills us with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit teaches us Christ and gives us power to do the same as Him.

With the miracles that are done we do not glorify our selves but do them in the name of Jesus.

God’s will is that we keep His commandments. The first commandment Jesus gave us after His resurrection was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was to give His love to us first. He forgave our former transgressions and gave us the Holy Spirit so we could be as He is.

1 John 4 v 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 Cor 11 v 18 through to the end of 1 Cor 14 deals when the congregation meets together.
The Corinthian Church was confused and disorganized with many speaking out of turn.
Pauls letter to them was showing how they were to run their meetings decently and in order. One gives a word of Knowledge, one a word of Wisdom, not to all speak in tongues at one but two or three etc.

God does not control any one to use any gift. We allow our will to summit to Him and we still have a choose to be used in any gift for the benefit of the Church or an individual.

We have the choice to pray for any one at any time for healing, deliverance, to receive the Holy Spirit or any other need promised to us by God. We do not wait for God to move. We move by faith and allow God to do the miracle.

[FredFlanders]

Could you find the time to build a scriptural case for this so that we may discuss this?

Thanks,


Jonathan
OK Johnathan, we can start with these two scriptures. What are the same works Jesus said we would do? And if we are as He is then how was He in this world.

John 14 v 1 and you will see that Jesus said the works that I do shall you shall do also.

The same is said in 1 John 4 v 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

When God fills us with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit teaches us Christ and gives us power to do the same as Him.

[FredFlanders]

Why do you keep quoting 1 cor 12:7, but ignoring the next verses and the previous ones? Could it be that they disagree with you?

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.





The spirit gives miracles to one person, and to another discerning spirits, etc.



The spirit decides who gets which gifts. NOT YOU. and if he wants you to have all of the gifts then you will have them. If not then you won't.


Paul is very clear on this. It sounds to me that you lack the gift of discernment.

SparKo,

1 Cor 11 v 18 through to the end of 1 Cor 14 deals when the congregation meets together.
The Corinthian Church was confused and disorganized with many speaking out of turn.
Pauls letter to them was showing how they were to run their meetings decently and in order. One gives a word of Knowledge, one a word of Wisdom, not to all speak in tongues at one but two or three etc.

And no Sparko we can operate any of the gifts at any time by faith if you have the Holy Spirit. You do not have to wait for God to operate the gift in you.

[FredFlanders]

Well you're pretty clearly adding to the gospel at this point, Fred, so I'm not gonna bother arguing with you any further. You are deluded.

O,
What happened to your gift of patience.

[JonathanDW]

OK Johnathan, we can start with these two scriptures. What are the same works Jesus said we would do? And if we are as He is then how was He in this world.

John 14 v 1 and you will see that Jesus said the works that I do shall you shall do also.

The same is said in 1 John 4 v 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

When God fills us with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit teaches us Christ and gives us power to do the same as Him.

Mr. Flanders,

I believe we can perform greater works than Christ in the sense that full salvation can be offered through the preaching of the Gospel. Spiritual healing is greater than physical healing.

1 John 4:11-21's talking about the fear of man being cast out of our lives because we are living a life of testimony, confidence, confession, and belief. I honestly don't see how you get miraculous spiritual gifts out of that passage.

I'm asking you for scriptural justification for the purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts.

Jonathan

[Adrift]

I believe we can perform greater works than Christ in the sense that full salvation can be offered through the preaching of the Gospel.

No. That doesn't sound right... doesn't seem to match the context.

[hedrick]

Do you presuppose that there is no longer a biblical law against murder, theft, adultery, coveting, etc., etc.? Do you disregard the Old Testament as obsolete? Does your Bible consist solely of the New Testament?


My understanding of Acts 15 is that it recognizes the law of Moses as being part of God's covenant with the Jews, and not binding on Gentile Christians. Gentile Christians are covered by a set of principles which were probably derived from the covenant with Noah, although you can find the things in Act 15 in Jesus' teachings as well.

More generally I would say that Christians are controlled by love, and not the Law. This is Jesus' approach in the Sermon on the Mount. However love is a stricter standard, so it would certainly not permit murder, theft or adultery. I would say the Noachic laws would be a baseline, but it's one that people truly moved by love shouldn't need to be reminded of.

My Bible certainly includes the OT, but its applicability to Christians needs careful thought. Much of the purpose of the OT is to show us how God deals with people. Jesus' life is a continuation of God's activity with Israel, and doesn't make sense outside that context. However specific commandments in the OT can only be applied with care. God doesn't change between the OT and NT, so things that used to be wrong are still wrong. However commandments in the OT include the municipal law of Israel and laws associated with the Mosaic covenant, e.g. specific ceremonies. We can learn from them, but they do not apply directly to us.

[Sparko]

SparKo,

1 Cor 11 v 18 through to the end of 1 Cor 14 deals when the congregation meets together.
The Corinthian Church was confused and disorganized with many speaking out of turn.
Pauls letter to them was showing how they were to run their meetings decently and in order. One gives a word of Knowledge, one a word of Wisdom, not to all speak in tongues at one but two or three etc.

And no Sparko we can operate any of the gifts at any time by faith if you have the Holy Spirit. You do not have to wait for God to operate the gift in you.

It is clear that there is no debating with you. You merely ignore scripture and re-assert the same thing over and over.

It is ironic that by doing so you show you lack the gift of discernment.


since you can do even greater works that Jesus, does that mean you can raise the dead? Or even yourself? Do you think you could raise yourself from the dead, in say, only two days?

[Adrift]

It is clear that there is no debating with you. You merely ignore scripture and re-assert the same thing over and over.

It is ironic that by doing so you show you lack the gift of discernment.


since you can do even greater works that Jesus, does that mean you can raise the dead? Or even yourself? Do you think you could raise yourself from the dead, in say, only two days?

I don't agree with where Flanders is going here, but why would it be out of the realm of possibility for a believer to raise the dead in the name of Christ through the Holy Spirit? I'm not saying its going to happen all the time. It may be extremely rare even, and only through the unction of the Holy Spirit, but the Apostles were able to work miracles in the name of Christ, and Paul did extraordinary miracles. In James, the sick are to go to the elders for prayer. And there's indication that the early church worked miracles. Some of the gift ministries even include healing and working of miracles. I don't see anything in the Bible that says that God can't do miracles through us in the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

Mr. Flanders,

I believe we can perform greater works than Christ in the sense that full salvation can be offered through the preaching of the Gospel. Spiritual healing is greater than physical healing.

1 John 4:11-21's talking about the fear of man being cast out of our lives because we are living a life of testimony, confidence, confession, and belief. I honestly don't see how you get miraculous spiritual gifts out of that passage.

I'm asking you for scriptural justification for the purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts.

Jonathan

JDW,
I agree with you the spiritual healing or having one come into the Kingdom of God is more important than physical healing. And the greater works we have now is we can guide believers into the NT covenant with God which Christ could not do.

The deliverance and healing ministries play just as important part of the ministry of Christ as do all the other gifts of the spirit such as prophesy, wisdom, knowledge, praying in tongues etc. All these are given us through the Holy Spirit as we read in Corinthians. And are all members of the Body of Christ.

J, you still have not acknowledged these scriptures. What are the same works Jesus said we would do? Or why does it say "as he is, so are we in this world?" What characteristics did Jesus have in this World?

John 14 v 1 and you will see that Jesus said the works that I do shall you shall do also.

The same is said in 1 John 4 v 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[FredFlanders]

It is clear that there is no debating with you. You merely ignore scripture and re-assert the same thing over and over.

It is ironic that by doing so you show you lack the gift of discernment.


since you can do even greater works that Jesus, does that mean you can raise the dead? Or even yourself? Do you think you could raise yourself from the dead, in say, only two days?

No I do not think I can raise myself from the dead. But the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead will raise me up at God's appointed time.

And yes believers have risen people from the dead and will continue to do so.

The greater works we are given is now believers have the keys to the Kingdom of God and New Covenant after Christ's resurrection.

[themuzicman]

[QUOTE=themuzicman;2701666]First, this portion of John isn't speaking of the charismatic gifts.

Second, all this is hinged upon "IN MY NAME", which in context refer to acting in God's will.



Michael,
Look at John 14 v 1 and you will see that Jesus said the works that I do shall you shall do also. This is the whole character of Christ which includes all the miraculous gifts he did.

The same is said in 1 John 4 v 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

When God fills us with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit teaches us Christ and gives us power to do the same as Him.

With the miracles that are done we do not glorify our selves but do them in the name of Jesus.

God’s will is that we keep His commandments. The first commandment Jesus gave us after His resurrection was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was to give His love to us first. He forgave our former transgressions and gave us the Holy Spirit so we could be as He is.

1 John 4 v 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 Cor 11 v 18 through to the end of 1 Cor 14 deals when the congregation meets together.
The Corinthian Church was confused and disorganized with many speaking out of turn.
Pauls letter to them was showing how they were to run their meetings decently and in order. One gives a word of Knowledge, one a word of Wisdom, not to all speak in tongues at one but two or three etc.

God does not control any one to use any gift. We allow our will to summit to Him and we still have a choose to be used in any gift for the benefit of the Church or an individual.

We have the choice to pray for any one at any time for healing, deliverance, to receive the Holy Spirit or any other need promised to us by God. We do not wait for God to move. We move by faith and allow God to do the miracle.

Did you read this:

30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Thus, if we are empowered as Christ was empowered, we still can do nothing on our own. We must seek the will of the FATHER, including in operating in the charismatic gifts.

I suggest you stop proof texting and start reading.

Michael

[T-Shirt Ninja]

I show my faith by my works. Faith without works is dead. You cannot sit on the fence. If you believe then you operate the gifts. If you dont believe and speak against the gifts then you have the teachings of the Antichrist. If you call yourself a Christian then you will operate in the gifts of the Spirit.

I'll ask this: if a person who calls himself a Christian but doesn't operate in the charismatic gifts (tongues, prophecy, etc.), is that person truly saved?

[FredFlanders]

[QUOTE=FredFlanders;2702619]
Did you read this:
30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Thus, if we are empowered as Christ was empowered, we still can do nothing on our own. We must seek the will of the FATHER, including in operating in the charismatic gifts.
I suggest you stop proop texting and start reading.il
MichaelIt is Gods will that we follow, obey, beleive, rely & trust in Jesus. If you do this you will do the same things as Jesus. But first you need to seek for the Holy Spirt He promised us. As it is the Holy Spirit in us that gives power to do all the gifts and not our own power. What do you think the will of the Father is? Sit there and do nothing but be spoon fed with scriptures that you will not obey?.

[FredFlanders]

I'll ask this: if a person who calls himself a Christian but doesn't operate in the charismatic gifts (tongues, prophecy, etc.), is that person truly saved?TSN, if you do not have the Holy Spirit you will not be in the reserection of the Saints. You are in the same boat as Sparco, Michael, JDW and others on this thread. You need to obey Jesus's first command after his reserection and seek for the Holy Spirit. When you receive the Holy Spirit you are given God's power to operate all the gifts. Non of you need to worry about operating any gift as yet as God will give you that power after the Holy Spirit has filled you.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Fred, are you really saying that someone can confess Jesus as Lord, believe He died for your sins & that He was raised from the dead (Paul's definition of a Christian, 1 Corinthians 15) ...and be lost?

[JAYMZ]

No I do not think I can raise myself from the dead. But the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead will raise me up at God's appointed time.

And yes believers have risen people from the dead and will continue to do so.

The greater works we are given is now believers have the keys to the Kingdom of God and New Covenant after Christ's resurrection.
Can you give specific examples of people that were raised from the dead ? Specific sources ?

[FredFlanders]

Fred, are you really saying that someone can confess Jesus as Lord, believe He died for your sins & that He was raised from the dead (Paul's definition of a Christian, 1 Corinthians 15) ...and be lost?

Yes Lil,
To confess Jesus means to say and do as Christ. Most Christians just do it as lip service without following , obeying, trusting the Gospel of Christ. Faith without works is dead. Most do it in ignorance because they are being led by Mr Magoo in their congrigations.
I say the same to you as I did the TSN in the last post. Get your self filled with the Holy Spirit first then you will have God's power within you to truly follow the Gospel of Christ. At the moment you are trying to do it in your own srength which is impossible to do.

[JAYMZ]

How actually, do you " get yourself filled " with the Holy Spirit ?

[FredFlanders]

Can you give specific examples of people that were raised from the dead ? Specific sources ?

Raised Up From Death!

On 5th January 2002, God gave me four dreams. One of those was this: Walking amidst the power of God. I was looking up to some high voltage power lines that we had constructed as part of a huge civil engineering project. In order to get near the power lines, someone had put a few of my scaffold boards alongside the cables, so they could walk along them, close to the power lines [symbol of ‘our’ literature that accesses God’s power]. I was amazed. It was so daring!

Six months later, the dream was fulfilled. An evangelist in Nigeria, David Isaac Ohuoba, wrote to me. He told me of a little boy who had died. His parents came to David asking for help. They knew David had cast demons out of people and delivered them from sicknesses and diseases. He taught people the truths of God’s Word, and there were miraculous signs accompanying his ministry. So, they had faith that something could be done.

They brought the small boy to David, and David prayed. He asked God to restore the boy’s life. And God did just that.

It wasn’t an instant miracle. He persevered for three days until the answer came that he awaited. Like Elijah (1 Kings 17:21) and Elisha (2 Kings 4:32-35), who did not receive immediately, David saw the miracle at the ‘third time’.

He wrote to me telling me more about this incident. The letter was signed by the parents also, verifying what had occurred. Here is that wonderful story (with slight alterations to wording to make it more readily understandable):


Miracle At MIDNIGHT
I am very happy to report about a wonderful miracle that has taken place here at Ahiaba. On 15th June 2002, the Sabbath day, during our Sabbath school lesson our topic that day was the Blessing of God. Our verse to remember was taken from Psalm 127:1, “Unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain who build it; unless the Lord guards the city, the watchmen stay awake in vain.”

Objectives: to note in Psalm 127 the emphasis on the Lord as the motivator and essential factor for our conduct.

Psalm 127 is a fitting psalm for our age: an apt summary is the statement that everything depends on God’s blessing. This short but magnificent psalm, in fact, prescribes the formula for happy homes and restful nights.

Psalm 127 is ascribed to Solomon. Note "His beloved" in verse 2. The Hebrew is the root word from which the name Jeddah – God’s name for Solomon – is formed. The psalm stands in contrast to that great man’s life. Its lessons, as so much of Solomon’s recorded wisdom, were relevant to his life, but were mostly lost on him. Solomon’s building programme became extravagant. His marriages to pagan women, and worship of their heathen gods, brought rebuff and rejection from God.

Consequently, God told Solomon, because he had failed to serve Him as David had, that most of his kingdom would be taken from his descendants (1 Ki 9 & 11:1-13).

After our exploring the subject and responding, then came our conclusion: the wellbeing of an individual, a family, a community, a nation, depends on God’s blessing. Only God can bring fulfilment and prosperity; mere religion cannot, nor can we secure genuine fulfilment on our own. The Lord does it for us.

As we wanted to pray, we saw four women with a two-year-old boy who had just died. He had been rubbed with native medicine. He was laid at my feet. As God planned it, two of my prayer ministry visited me that day from Lagos Adventist Church Maryland and the people that brought the dead boy all were from the SDA church Umuette. The whole church started to pray. [David Isaac is not an SDA.]

After the prayers of the congregation, the prayer group sent him to wash off the native medicine.

We asked the mother what had happened. She revealed to us that two weeks earlier they were in the house of the native doctor, then at 6 am of 15th June 2002 the man told her to carry the boy out because he is dead. As they arrived home, her sister Ijeoma was there waiting for the sad news. Then she carried the boy to the Midnight Supernatural Prayer Ministry [David Isaac’s evangelistic deliverance ministry].

We handed the case over to God, because it is a very big challenge. Many people were watching and wondering, “What will be the outcome of the boy?”

I started telling them about one of Midnight Ministries’ powerful books entitled Testing The Spirits[1] and that the devil tries to counterfeit healing. He is an astute counterfeiter, but he cannot heal in the true sense of the word. The Bible says dogmatically that God is the Healer (Ex 15:26; Ps 103:3). There is no instance in the Bible where Satan healed anyone. Miracles of healing at Christian meetings and evangelistic campaigns where they occur in the name of Jesus are bona fide miracles of God, done to glorify Jesus. He died to pay the price for our deliverance (Is 53:4-5).

Restoring pure biblical truth is much less exciting than seeing miracles occur in front of your eyes. It’s no wonder that signs and wonders can relegate the restoration of biblical truth to the back row of the church. [David’s love for the purity of God’s truth is second to none. The restoration of God’s truth in the Church is top on his priority list!]

So, at sundown we prayed. Everybody went home. I was there with them for four days. At midnight, I was praying, challenging God on “what people will say over this dead boy that was brought to You”, then I referred to what He did to Elisha in the book of 2nd Kings 4:18-32.

Then verse 33 said that he went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands and he stretched himself upon the child, and the child’s flesh waxed warm [old KJV wording].

As I was praying, challenging God that He is still God, the same today, God restored the life of this boy. Immediately he started crying, and calling for his mother, but he could not walk or stand.

We started praying day and night with your wonder books Faith and Healing, Listening To God, and Witnessing For Christ. We did 3 nights and 3 days. Then this boy started to walk on his own. Praise God! Normal blood pressure was restored and we discovered that the boy was not seeing with his eyes. Then I read Luke 18:35-41. Verse 42 said, “And Jesus said unto him, ‘Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.’ And immediately he received his sight.”

People, when they saw it happen here, gave praise to God. This miracle was covered with a photograph as I was giving back the boy to his mother. Praise to God.

Signed: David Isaac Ohuoba (prophet & evangelist).
Countersigned: Eberechi Dick (father).
Countersigned: Uchechi Dick (mother).

This miracle occurred on 22nd June 2002, the Sabbath day.[2]

The little boy’s name is Chimereucheya Dick. He is only 2 years old. Chimereucheya means God does His wish. The father’s name means God’s mercy, and the mother’s name means God’s will.

It’s God’s will to show mercy, and in this instance ‘God did His wish’. The miracle is a living testimony to God’s love and power.

Of course, not everyone receives, because there are conditions to be fulfilled. You can’t have evil motives in your heart and expect to receive from God. He answers the prayers of the righteous (Jas 5:16).

That doesn’t mean you have to be perfect. God is not looking for perfect ‘performance’ from you. But He is looking for a perfect heart. Your motive or intent must be right with Him.

With a pure motive you can have faith in Him. Jesus imparts that to your spirit. And that faith can move the mountain that needs shifting, as this incident illustrates.[3]

According to your faith be it unto you (Matt 9:29, KJV).

Those who dare can do great exploits for God by learning from our materials about walking by faith, etc. This is what the dream meant. David Isaac proved the point, and God answered at midnight as a sign that He backs the written materials we produce.

Malcolm B Heap

Left: David Isaac Ohuoba, holding Chimereucheya, brought back from death, beside the boy’s mother Uchechi Dick.


Man Raised Up From Death!
Testimony of Ishmael N Nwankudu and Mrs Nwayisunday Queen Nwankudu of Agburuike-Etiti-Ohanze, Obingwa, Nigeria.
Ishmael N Nwankudu had been told that medically there was no hope for him.


He would die. He tells his story here.

Praise God! I am highly delighted by our Almighty and Everlasting God for His wonderful and miraculous deed he has done to me, to be alive today!

I woke up early one Saturday morning after having a dream. Part of the hair on my head had been cut off in the dream. I was so amazed and dumbfounded by this dream that I called my wife and told it to her. [The dream portrayed in symbol, the oncoming sickness and loss of vitality.]

A month later, I developed symptoms of sickness whenever I woke up in the morning. I went home and told my parents and they took me to somewhere to get help, but the symptoms persisted.

When I went to work, and was on duty, the sickness started again. My director instructed me to go to the company’s hospital for medical treatment. On arrival there, I saw the doctor and the doctor instructed the nurses on duty and recommended the drugs and injection to treat me.

I was given a bed as instructed by the Director of my company. They treated me for three days and my director paid the hospital bills in advance, and other things both lab tests and x-rays, etc. But there was no improvement.

Later my wife decided to take me out of hospital to a nearby prayer house. By that time she had gone to many prayer houses. They continually told her that what her husband is suffering from is from the yard where we are living.

I had been told that my sickness is incurable and that I would die. So we tried many prayer houses but they proved useless. The sickness only became worse.

I could not walk properly. I was breathing heavily, but without getting enough oxygen. I kept passing in and out of death. As I 'went', I saw people that had been dead for a long time – people from my country home. [This was when his spirit was out of his body.] Then with my two eyes I tried to turn around and come back.

Later, my wife suggested that they should take me from the prayer house where I was staying to another place because there was no improvement. After that, she went to my in-law's place at Ohuru. When she got there she told the son of my in-laws (my brother) about my illness which is becoming worse. Both of them came where I was staying and suggested taking me to a native doctor at Osaa or other places.

Later the wife of my brother suggested that they take me to the pastor of their church Pastor David Isaac Ohuoba, because she had dreamt about my serious condition, that I died, and that they took me to Pastor Ohuoba’s residence, where my life was given back to me.

So that is what they did. They took me to the Pastor, a man of God. He started calling on the name of Almighty God, praying for a few minutes each hour, and the living and everlasting God heard him.

I have been delivered, praise God! Hallelujah! And today I am alive, praise God in Jesus’ name. To God be the Glory!

Account confirmed by David Isaac Ohuoba
PO Box 623, Aba, Abia State, Nigeria

At 6.pm. as I was going with my wife, Gladness, on our motor-bike, a motorcyclist stopped me on the way. He told me that he had just come from my house where he took his brother, and that there is no hope for his life. The man's name is John Ngbelu. He sent his brother to this ministry for help.

Three weeks before, on 7th November 2003 God revealed in a dream to his wife, Justine Ngbelu, that his brother died and a man told them to send him to Pastor David Ohuoba’s ministry Mnspnpm (Midnight Supernatural Prayer Ministry). There his life would be restored.

After they had gone to many laboratories and native doctors and prayer houses there was no hope for his life. The people told them to carry him back home to die. At that time God reminded sister Justina Ngbelu of her dream, that they should send him to our ministry.

As soon as I saw him in the prayer house I was alarmed, and my wife started to cry out to God... I remembered what is in the book Faith and Healing from Midnight Ministries – the importance of faith – a most important ingredient we need prior to receiving healing.

First, we must come to the Healer. He is waiting for us to come to Him. It is important how we come. If we do not have the right approach, how can we expect to receive? James tells us when we ask, we must not waver, we must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord. He is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. (James 1:6-8.)

Below: David Isaac Ohuoba with Ishmael Nwankudu, grateful for God's power & grace, expounded through Midnight Ministries’ literature.

As I was ministering to his people who were crying, I told them "You must believe. What must we believe?" The elderly mother replied, "Believe that God can heal him." They all said, "Yes, we believe..."

And notice what Mark recorded. These were Jesus' words. They show us why He was such a successful channel of God’s healing love.

"If anyone says to this mountain, go throw yourself into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore, I tell you whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours" (Mark 11:23-24).

This strong faith is a gift from God. That is why we need to come to Him to have it.

As we started praying, I was moved to pray in Tongues. In the great commission Jesus said: "And these signs shall follow them that believe, they shall speak with new tongues" (Mk 16:17).

I repeated to God about Peter’s mother-in-law in Matthew 8:14-17, who was healed; a paralysed man in Matt 9:2-8; and the two blind men in Matt 9:27-31.

We held hourly prayers Night and Day for 3 days and 3 nights. He started to improve.

On the 7th day he told us that, as I was praying, something like Arrows were flying out from his body [probably demons that had caused the sickness], that his eyes were opened and everything in his body started to operate normally.

Many people from far and near came to witness the Handiwork of God. People testify and thank God. They have elevated Him for the great miracle.

He was afraid to go back home at first, so he stayed with me until today being 29-11-2003. He went to church with me to tell the people how God has raised him from the dead through the help of the powerful literature Faith and Healing from Midnight Ministries... Praise God.


Plagiarism is theft.

Campus Decorum states:

Plagiarism and Copyrighted Material
Proper citation is required for any posted copyrighted material. Proper citation includes the author, publisher, and link (if available). If the material is found in a book or other off line resource, be sure to include enough information that another person could track down the original source with ease. A general rule of thumb is to use the same citation one would use in a college essay.

Unless permission is given to the poster by the copyright holder to reproduce the material, the length of the posting must not exceed fair use. There is no hard and fast way to decide at what point posting of material is fair use, but this is a general rule of thumb: Do not post any material exceeding the length of 8 sentences or 1/2 the original. Since this is a rule of thumb, we reserve the right to rule each case on a case by case basis.

If you have specific written permission from the copyright holder granting you permission to post the material on TheologyWeb.com you MUST notify all area moderators 24 hours in advance, furnishing them with a copy of the written permission and material to be posted. Failing to do so may result in the material being removed without notice.

Some copyrighted works have clauses that give readers the ability to fully (or in excesive of fair use) repost their material elsewhere under certain circumstances. Even if you think posting such material to TheologyWeb.com is acceptable under the guidelines, you must seek area moderator approval before posting the material. You must wait for the moderator's answer before posting. This requirement will be enforced fresh on every posting unless waived by an Owner.

These rules were written as an effort by TheologyWeb.com to comply with US and international copyright law. As such, there may be cases where we have to restrict postings due to something we did not legally anticipate or when we feel the posting puts TheologyWeb in danger of entering litigation. These rules will be enforced at the sole discretion of TheologyWeb and posts violating them may be removed without notice. If you have any questions, please contact an area moderator or Owner before posting material. We'll be more than happy to work with you to workout something fair.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/faq.php?faq=campus_decorum#faq_campus_decorum_copyright

[FredFlanders]

How actually, do you " get yourself filled " with the Holy Spirit ?

Jaymz,
First of all, All believers can get filled with the Holy Spirit as Jesus will fulfill His promise. Some get the infilling of the Holy Spirit by praying whole heartedly to God by them selves until it happens. But most will pray with some one who has the Holy Spirit by laying hands on them and praying with them. When you get filled with the Holy Spirit you will not only be able to pray in a new language miraculously but you will feel the power of God inside you.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Hey Fred, cite your sources, won't you?

your "Raised Up from Death!" quote comes from here:
http://www.midnightministries.org.uk/raised_1.htm

how come the Holy Spirit didn't teach you to be responsible with information? :wink:

[JAYMZ]

Fred,
So you are saying if your a member of a orthodox, non-charismatic church, the Holy spirit is NOT empowering those members for service ?

I think you are on very dangerous ground with you teachings. If your wrong, id say your bearing false witness against the Holy Spirit.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Yes Lil,
To confess Jesus means to say and do as Christ. Most Christians just do it as lip service without following , obeying, trusting the Gospel of Christ. Faith without works is dead. Most do it in ignorance because they are being led by Mr Magoo in their congrigations.
I say the same to you as I did the TSN in the last post. Get your self filled with the Holy Spirit first then you will have God's power within you to truly follow the Gospel of Christ. At the moment you are trying to do it in your own srength which is impossible to do.

Aside from the silly polemic ("Mr Magoo"), which gospel saves, that Christ died for sins or that you get the Holy Spirit? (third option, both, but you seem to be focussed on #2 without admitting #1)

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
So you are saying if your a member of a orthodox, non-charismatic church, the Holy spirit is NOT empowering those members for service ?

I think you are on very dangerous ground with you teachings. If your wrong, id say your bearing false witness against the Holy Spirit.I am not going to quote any denomination as they all have faults. But you would be wise to find a Church that ministers the full Gospel & has all the gifts. When Paul saw the light on the road to Damascus, he then went to people who had the Holy Spirit for them to pray over him so he could recieve. Then spent time with them learning how the gifts operated.

[FredFlanders]

Aside from the silly polemic ("Mr Magoo"), which gospel saves, that Christ died for sins or that you get the Holy Spirit? (third option, both, but you seem to be focussed on #2 without admitting #1)Both are important. Jesus died on our behalf but many stop there and do not go on to receive the Holy Spirit. It is only the Holy Spirit that allows us to again have access again to the living God.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Fred, no one is denying that Christians receive the Holy Spirit. The problem is, not everyone engages in the gifts, yet on this basis you want to claim they are lost. I don't see this in scripture.

[FredFlanders]

Hey Fred, cite your sources, won't you?

your "Raised Up from Death!" quote comes from here:
http://www.midnightministries.org.uk/raised_1.htm

how come the Holy Spirit didn't teach you to be responsible with information? :wink:
So big deal. There is plenty of information on this topic. It is there for all to search the internet to see. We have had experiences in our organisations of people being raised from the dead but if you cannot believe other testemonys then how can you believe mine or Jesus.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, no one is denying that Christians receive the Holy Spirit. The problem is, not everyone engages in the gifts, yet on this basis you want to claim they are lost. I don't see this in scripture.
Yes lost with the goats going in all directions religion teaches rather than following the full Gospel of Jesus. Easily led astray. If you are a member of the body of Christ you engage in the gifts. Faith without works is dead.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Fred, you can't just break TheologyWeb rules and then go 'big deal' :lolo: Have a screwball award.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you can't just break TheologyWeb rules and then go 'big deal' :lolo: Have a screwball award. Prefer to stick with the scriptures rather than looking for proof else were. Please forgive me.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Er, what? The "Raised up from death!" article is not in the scriptures! (of course I forgive you)

[FredFlanders]

Er, what? The "Raised up from death!" article is not in the scriptures! (of course I forgive you)
I was asked for specific sources of people being raised from the dead so I did so. Jesus raised up the dead to life and still happens today. What more proof do you want?

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

I'm asking you to be consistent!

[Adrift]

So let me get this straight Fred. You believe that not only does one have to, as Romans 10 says, confess with your mouth Jesus Lord, and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, but you also then have to find someone with the Holy Spirit to literally lay hands on you for the Holy Spirit to fill you up to be saved?

[themuzicman]

If you think about it, if what Fred says is true, then there was no church for about 1700 years.

Michael

[FredFlanders]

So let me get this straight Fred. You believe that not only does one have to, as Romans 10 says, confess with your mouth Jesus Lord, and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, but you also then have to find someone with the Holy Spirit to literally lay hands on you for the Holy Spirit to fill you up to be saved?Some people recieve the Holy Spirit when alone in prayer but mainly when praying with some one else who has the Holy Spirit. Many will call Jesus Lord, Lord and will mot know Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

[Adrift]

Some people recieve the Holy Spirit when alone in prayer but mainly when praying with some one else who has the Holy Spirit. Many will call Jesus Lord, Lord and will mot know Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

Fred, my issue with your approach here is that you're not being very specific. Romans 10 lays out a pretty black and white A to B process whereby one comes to salvation through Christ Jesus. You seem to be constantly skirting the question: are you saying one can be saved, but not have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If the two do not go hand in hand, then you'll have to lay out a scriptural case for this. If they do go hand in hand, then where in scripture does it say that one must necessarily have hands laid on them for salvation, or even have someone pray with them? Do you agree with Romans 10:9 and 10 or do you think that Paul should have added something to this scripture to flesh it out?

[Sparko]

Wow. FredFlanders is like Ty Rockwell on crack.

[Obsidian]

Fred, I think I could make a pretty good case that those people you're talking about were the Jews, not non-Charismatic Christians. The Jews refused to walk through the narrow gate, meaning they failed to trust in Christ.

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'


"Lord Lord" could refer either to their ultimate encounter with God, believing they had served him well, or to their acknowledgement of his teaching ability while he walked amongst them (even though they ultimately rejected the message).

It could also be applied to people who worship a false Christ, such as gnostics and New Agers. I've even heard the passage being applied to legalists (like you) because legalists fail to place sufficient trust in the work of Christ -- although I have some personal doubts about that interpretation. Whoever the passage refers to, the people in the passage obviously were providing some service toward their faith, even prophecying and working miracles. So I think I could make a better case that you are headed for hell than that I am.

22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Under your system, it sounds like at least some people who trust in Christ will be put to shame. But that's not what the Bible says:

As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.

[Sparko]

Fred, I think I could make a pretty good case that those people you're talking about were the Jews, not non-Charismatic Christians. The Jews refused to walk through the narrow gate, meaning they failed to trust in Christ.



"Lord Lord" could refer either to their ultimate encounter with God, believing they had served him well, or to their acknowledgement of his teaching ability while he walked amongst them (even though they ultimately rejected the message).

It could also be applied to people who worship a false Christ, such as gnostics and New Agers. I've even heard the passage being applied to legalists (like you) because legalists fail to place sufficient trust in the work of Christ -- although I have some personal doubts about that interpretation. Whoever the passage refers to, the people in the passage obviously were providing some service toward their faith, even prophecying and working miracles. So I think I could make a better case that you are headed for hell than that I am.



Under your system, it sounds like at least some people who trust in Christ will be put to shame. But that's not what the Bible says:


exactly.


Matthew 7:22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


It seems that doing miracles and prophesy and driving out demons does NOT mean a person is saved. Exactly the opposite of what FredFlanders is claiming.

How did these people do all these miracles in Jesus name Fred?

[FredFlanders]

Wow. FredFlanders is like Ty Rockwell on crack.

Or maybe Jesus,Ty and I just tell what the full Gospel message is and you do not want to read all the scriptures.

PS This thread may be moved to unorthadox theology because many cannot handle the Truth.

[FredFlanders]

If you think about it, if what Fred says is true, then there was no church for about 1700 years.

Michael

Michael,
The NT Church has always been here since the Day of Pentecost and founded many denominations today. Most have gone astray with pockets of believers still in many denominations who understand and stick to the scriptures. Satan is there to deceive the very elect, even many church leaders. The scriptures are not to condemn anyone but to put people back on track so they will receive their full salvation in this life and the next. Do not put false religious teaching over Christ but check your Bible to what you hear.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, my issue with your approach here is that you're not being very specific. Romans 10 lays out a pretty black and white A to B process whereby one comes to salvation through Christ Jesus. You seem to be constantly skirting the question: are you saying one can be saved, but not have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If the two do not go hand in hand, then you'll have to lay out a scriptural case for this. If they do go hand in hand, then where in scripture does it say that one must necessarily have hands laid on them for salvation, or even have someone pray with them? Do you agree with Romans 10:9 and 10 or do you think that Paul should have added something to this scripture to flesh it out?

A,
Salvation comes through obedience to Christ. And no you cannot be saved in the first resurrection unless you have the Holy Spirit. Mouthing words of confession in Christ is useless unless you follow through with obedience. Luke 6 v 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Receiving the Holy Spirit was a separate event after repentance and baptism in water.
After Christ resurrection his first commandment to believers was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit and power which came to those who went to the upper room to receive. Those that did not go did not receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 1-2. This event continued through the book of Acts were when Christ was either preached and the Holy Spirit moved upon them and they spoke in tongues or believers had hands laid upon them they received the Holy Spirit.
This is the way people receive the Holy Spirit today as well. Nothing has changed.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, my issue with your approach here is that you're not being very specific. Romans 10 lays out a pretty black and white A to B process whereby one comes to salvation through Christ Jesus. You seem to be constantly skirting the question: are you saying one can be saved, but not have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If the two do not go hand in hand, then you'll have to lay out a scriptural case for this. If they do go hand in hand, then where in scripture does it say that one must necessarily have hands laid on them for salvation, or even have someone pray with them? Do you agree with Romans 10:9 and 10 or do you think that Paul should have added something to this scripture to flesh it out?

A,
Salvation comes through obedience to Christ. And no you cannot be saved in the first resurrection unless you have the Holy Spirit. Mouthing words of confession in Christ is useless unless you follow through with obedience. Luke 6 v 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Receiving the Holy Spirit was a separate event after repentance and baptism in water.
After Christ resurrection his first commandment to believers was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit and power which came to those who went to the upper room to receive. Those that did not go did not receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 1-2. This event continued through the book of Acts were when Christ was either preached and the Holy Spirit moved upon them and they spoke in tongues or believers had hands laid upon them they received the Holy Spirit.
This is the way people receive the Holy Spirit then and today as well. Nothing has changed.

[FredFlanders]

Wow. FredFlanders is like Ty Rockwell on crack.

Thanks Sparko, Our crack is the Holy Spirit and it is very, very good.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, I think I could make a pretty good case that those people you're talking about were the Jews, not non-Charismatic Christians. The Jews refused to walk through the narrow gate, meaning they failed to trust in Christ.



"Lord Lord" could refer either to their ultimate encounter with God, believing they had served him well, or to their acknowledgement of his teaching ability while he walked amongst them (even though they ultimately rejected the message).

It could also be applied to people who worship a false Christ, such as gnostics and New Agers. I've even heard the passage being applied to legalists (like you) because legalists fail to place sufficient trust in the work of Christ -- although I have some personal doubts about that interpretation. Whoever the passage refers to, the people in the passage obviously were providing some service toward their faith, even prophecying and working miracles. So I think I could make a better case that you are headed for hell than that I am.



Under your system, it sounds like at least some people who trust in Christ will be put to shame. But that's not what the Bible says:

O, What you have said here is all true but you are still on the same line as Adrift here about the Holy Spirit, so I will give you the same reply;
Mouthing words of confession in Christ is useless unless you follow through with obedience. Luke 6 v 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Receiving the Holy Spirit was a separate event after repentance and baptism in water.
After Christ resurrection his first commandment to believers was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit and power which came to those who went to the upper room to receive. Those that did not go did not receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 1-2. This event continued through the book of Acts were when Christ was either preached and the Holy Spirit moved upon them and they spoke in tongues or believers had hands laid upon them they received the Holy Spirit.
This is the way people receive the Holy Spirit today as well. Nothing has changed.

[FredFlanders]

exactly.


Matthew 7:22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


It seems that doing miracles and prophesy and driving out demons does NOT mean a person is saved. Exactly the opposite of what FredFlanders is claiming.

How did these people do all these miracles in Jesus name Fred? Any one can speak in the name of Jesus. Jesus answers prayer according to His word. It does not mean they are saved or have the Holy Spirit. The ones that will be saved are the ones that have and walk in the Spirit.

[Adrift]

A,
Salvation comes through obedience to Christ. And no you cannot be saved in the first resurrection unless you have the Holy Spirit.

Ok, I agree with that. So the two are linked.

Mouthing words of confession in Christ is useless unless you follow through with obedience. Luke 6 v 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I don't think you'll find anyone here who disagrees that simply mouthing words of confession is useless. However, Romans 10:10 says with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Receiving the Holy Spirit was a separate event after repentance and baptism in water.
After Christ resurrection his first commandment to believers was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit and power which came to those who went to the upper room to receive. Those that did not go did not receive the Holy Spirit.
Do you have a chapter and verse on those who did not go to the upper room and did not receive the Holy Spirit?

Acts 1-2. This event continued through the book of Acts were when Christ was either preached and the Holy Spirit moved upon them and they spoke in tongues or believers had hands laid upon them they received the Holy Spirit.
This is the way people receive the Holy Spirit then and today as well. Nothing has changed.

I need you to be clear on something here. Everywhere I look in the NT it appears that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is something that happens as one repents and makes Jesus Lord. Receiving the HS is not something someone must do, rather it appears to be something imparted once one makes Christ Jesus lord. We see this in verses like:

"Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing about laying on of hands. Nothing about speaking in tongues.

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

No mention of laying on of hands. Nothing about speaking in tongues.

Furthermore we read:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with the laying on of hands, or with the gift of tongues manifesting in those who've been filled with the HS. But neither of these 2 things appear to be any sort of requirement in receiving the Holy Spirit, which appears to be received at the point of salvation.

[FredFlanders]

Ok, I agree with that. So the two are linked.


I don't think you'll find anyone here who disagrees that simply mouthing words of confession is useless. However, Romans 10:10 says with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Do you have a chapter and verse on those who did not go to the upper room and did not receive the Holy Spirit?



I need you to be clear on something here. Everywhere I look in the NT it appears that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is something that happens as one repents and makes Jesus Lord. Receiving the HS is not something someone must do, rather it appears to be something imparted once one makes Christ Jesus lord. We see this in verses like:

"Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing about laying on of hands. Nothing about speaking in tongues.

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

No mention of laying on of hands. Nothing about speaking in tongues.

Furthermore we read:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with the laying on of hands, or with the gift of tongues manifesting in those who've been filled with the HS. But neither of these 2 things appear to be any sort of requirement in receiving the Holy Spirit, which appears to be received at the point of salvation.

A,
They are all good questions and I need more time than I have at the moment to answer them because I am off to work. This thead may be on Unorthordox Theology soon but I will get back to you when I can.
Fred.

[Adrift]

A,
They are all good questions and I need more time than I have at the moment to answer them because I am off to work. This thead may be on Unorthordox Theology soon but I will get back to you when I can.
Fred.

okay, sounds good.

[FredFlanders]

Ok, I agree with that. So the two are linked.


I don't think you'll find anyone here who disagrees that simply mouthing words of confession is useless. However, Romans 10:10 says with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Do you have a chapter and verse on those who did not go to the upper room and did not receive the Holy Spirit?



I need you to be clear on something here. Everywhere I look in the NT it appears that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is something that happens as one repents and makes Jesus Lord. Receiving the HS is not something someone must do, rather it appears to be something imparted once one makes Christ Jesus lord. We see this in verses like:

"Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing about laying on of hands. Nothing about speaking in tongues.

Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

No mention of laying on of hands. Nothing about speaking in tongues.

Furthermore we read:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with the laying on of hands, or with the gift of tongues manifesting in those who've been filled with the HS. But neither of these 2 things appear to be any sort of requirement in receiving the Holy Spirit, which appears to be received at the point of salvation.
The 40 days He appeared to His followers, Jesus continually spoke about the promise of the Holy Spirit which was to come and to wait in Jerusalem for this event. During the 40 days where He appeared to His followers He spoke to over 500 1 Cor 15 v 4-7 but there were only 120 that came to the upper room. How ever the scriptures do not say whether the others repented and sought the Holy Spirit at a latter time.

There is no where in NT scripture does any one receive the Holy Spirit because that have repented and said Jesus is my Lord. However once they have confessed Jesus as their Lord the true followers obey His word and seek for the promise of the Holy Spirit. Many do not go on to do this because Satan comes along (through man/false prophets) and tells them they already have the Holy Spirit and snatches them away into false religion. Some however fall on the good ground and bring forth the fruit Jesus said would happen to us. (Just as He is we will be also)

Lets look at the scriptures you bring up. Acts 2 v 37. Many of the Jews had just seen and heard about the Holy Spirit poured out on some of their fellow Jews Acts 2 v 1-18. They knew this because they spoke in tongues and magnified God. When they saw and/or heard this they asked Peter “what shall we do” And Peter said to the Repent, be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter did not say any thing about speaking in tongues because the Jews had already seen and /or heard about this manifestation from what had happened at Pentecost and wanted this power as well.

Some receive the Holy Spirit when praying in a group like the 120 in the upper room or some can receive the Holy Spirit by prayer with another Spirit filled person as we see in Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
In Acts 16 v 30 Again Paul spoke to them the full message. When they believed in Jesus they took the next action of following the Lord and in v 33 they were baptized. I know the scripture does not say whether it was baptism in water or baptism in the Holy Spirit (as both are commanded by the Lord) but because in v 34 is stated that they rejoiced with all their house then I believe that was because the Holy Spirit baptism had fallen on them.

Acts 11 v 44-48 gives a more thorough example of what happened when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit. The Jews knew this because they heard them speak in tongues and magnify God. The same as what happened to them.

Eph 2 v 8 a good verse. Many believers struggle to live up to the Gospel of Christ because they try to do it in their own strength. But it only by the grace of God and the sending of the Holy Spirit are we able to fulfill our calling to be like Christ.

We only get salvation through believing and following through with the full Gospel message. Repentance to Baptism in water to Baptism in the Holy Spirit to walking in the Spirit and growing from faith to faith

Have a look at the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. 5 had oil (the Holy Spirit) and 5 did not. They both said Lord, Lord but the 5 without the oil did not get into the wedding as the Lord said he did not know them.

[Adrift]

The 40 days He appeared to His followers, Jesus continually spoke about the promise of the Holy Spirit which was to come and to wait in Jerusalem for this event. During the 40 days where He appeared to His followers He spoke to over 500 1 Cor 15 v 4-7 but there were only 120 that came to the upper room. How ever the scriptures do not say whether the others repented and sought the Holy Spirit at a latter time.

So essentially its pure speculation on your part what happened to the other 380. You have no idea what their circumstances were, you don't know that they sinned and left Jerusalem. You can't really be certain because the scriptures only tell us a few things about them, that they saw the resurrected Jesus, that by Paul's time some have passed away, but many were still alive, and that they're still called brethren which signifies that they are in fellowship with the church.

There is no where in NT scripture does any one receive the Holy Spirit because that have repented and said Jesus is my Lord.

You recently told me that one cannot be saved without having the Holy Spirit. That they are inextricably linked. And I've since shown you at least two example where people repented of their sins and made Jesus Lord and were saved.

However once they have confessed Jesus as their Lord the true followers obey His word and seek for the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Those who have repented and have made Jesus Lord have found what they seek, thus they receive the Holy Spirit.

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There he found some disciples. 2And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Many do not go on to do this because Satan comes along (through man/false prophets) and tells them they already have the Holy Spirit and snatches them away into false religion. Some however fall on the good ground and bring forth the fruit Jesus said would happen to us. (Just as He is we will be also)

You'll need to clarify exactly where it spells out in scripture that between the moment of confessing one's sins, making Jesus Lord and actually receiving the Holy Spirit, Satan can come along and lead psuedo-Christians astray before the HS is imparted.

Lets look at the scriptures you bring up. Acts 2 v 37. Many of the Jews had just seen and heard about the Holy Spirit poured out on some of their fellow Jews Acts 2 v 1-18. They knew this because they spoke in tongues and magnified God. When they saw and/or heard this they asked Peter “what shall we do” And Peter said to the Repent, be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter did not say any thing about speaking in tongues because the Jews had already seen and /or heard about this manifestation from what had happened at Pentecost and wanted this power as well.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that these men converted because they desired solely to speak in tongues rather it reads: Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Witnessing the movement of the Holy Spirit and seeing the disciples speaking in their own tongue was pretty amazing to them, but what really cut them to their heart was Peter's speech. Then Peter makes it very very clear what they must do in order to receive what they seek:

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Some receive the Holy Spirit when praying in a group like the 120 in the upper room or some can receive the Holy Spirit by prayer with another Spirit filled person as we see in Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
In Acts 16 v 30 Again Paul spoke to them the full message. When they believed in Jesus they took the next action of following the Lord and in v 33 they were baptized. I know the scripture does not say whether it was baptism in water or baptism in the Holy Spirit (as both are commanded by the Lord) but because in v 34 is stated that they rejoiced with all their house then I believe that was because the Holy Spirit baptism had fallen on them.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible, that I've been able to read, that says that one is commanded to be with another person to receive the HS. You're drawing conclusions by filling in blanks. The scriptures are very very clear about what all one must do to receive the HS, and it never includes mandatory prayer with others.

Acts 11 v 44-48 gives a more thorough example of what happened when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit. The Jews knew this because they heard them speak in tongues and magnify God. The same as what happened to them.

You mean Acts 10:44-48 I believe, and again here we have nothing that says anything about mandatory prayer groups, laying on of hands, or even that speaking in tongues will absolutely necessarily happen. All that's laid up for the reader is an example of what happened to this particular group. In fact, we're even told exactly how they received the HS:

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.

Eph 2 v 8 a good verse. Many believers struggle to live up to the Gospel of Christ because they try to do it in their own strength. But it only by the grace of God and the sending of the Holy Spirit are we able to fulfill our calling to be like Christ.

That's not why I quoted this verse. I quoted it to show you that the Bible clearly says that we do not receive the HS and are not saved through our works, but through faith.

We only get salvation through believing and following through with the full Gospel message.

If by following through with the full gospel message you mean to repent and make Jesus Lord in our lives, then yes, I agree.

Have a look at the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. 5 had oil (the Holy Spirit) and 5 did not. They both said Lord, Lord but the 5 without the oil did not get into the wedding as the Lord said he did not know them.

Are you actually saying that the parable of the virgins is actually referring to Christians with and without the Holy Spirit? You'll have to read into the parable to get that sort of interpretation out of it.

I want to repeat again, so you'll understand my position, that I see no scriptural issue with the laying on of hands, or with folks speaking in tongues after receiving the HS, but I haven't found anywhere in scripture where these things are explicitly spelled out that they must happen, and in fact, I've pointed out several instances where they don't seem to happen at all.

[Obsidian]

Fred, the will of God is different from what you are arguing. The "will of God" is that you trust in his Son for justification.

"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

27"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


The only "work" involved is belief.

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]


The people healed by the serpent of Moses didn't have to perform any righteous deeds or commit to do so in order to be healed. They just looked up to the serpent.

[John Goddard]

Are you actually saying that the parable of the virgins is actually referring to Christians with and without the Holy Spirit? You'll have to read into the parable to get that sort of interpretation out of it.

It's about Jew + Gentile Christians who go astray.

Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

If you run out of oil -- anointing -- then you become a dead branch and are broken off. Your light goes out.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 14:17-18 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[Adrift]

It's about Jew + Gentile Christians who go astray.

Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

If you run out of oil -- anointing -- then you become a dead branch and are broken off. Your light goes out.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 14:17-18 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I lean more towards you're interpretation than with Fred's that this is about Christians with and without the indwelling Holy Spirit. I actually believe its about Christians and non-Christians, but I recently read a very interesting commentary that asks the question "who is the missing bride to the bridegroom"?

[John Goddard]

I lean more towards you're interpretation than with Fred's that this is about Christians without and without the indwelling Holy Spirit. I actually believe its about Christians and non-Christians, but I recently read a very interesting commentary that asks the question "who is the missing bride to the bridegroom"?

Did it say who it was?

Following my eschatological interpretation that the 2 Olive Tree Prophets are Christian Jews and Gentiles, I'd say the missing bride is unbelieving Jews/Whore who instead marries the unbelieving Gentiles/Beast of the world, in a union which is the nemesis of Antichrist False Prophet.

[Adrift]

Did it say who it was?

Following my eschatological interpretation that the 2 Olive Tree Prophets are Christian Jews and Gentiles, I'd say the missing bride is unbelieving Jews/Whore who instead marries the unbelieving Gentiles/Beast of the world, in a union which is the nemesis of Antichrist False Prophet.

Well seeing as Jesus is clearly the bridegroom in this parable, I don't think your interpretation here lines up. No, the commentary I was reading made the argument that the bride is the Church, and that the virgins/bridesmaids were those who were to help the bride prepare herself for her bridegroom. The bridesmaids are then the pastors, prophets, teachers, and evangelists of the church. I'm not sure how much I agree with this interpretation because it still needs to take into fact the context of the surrounding parables, but its an interesting take. The reason I believe the 10 virgins refer to Christians and non-Christians is because half of the virgins never had oil to begin with. They were never saved. Never born with what Peter calls the incorruptible seed:

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.

[John Goddard]

Well seeing as Jesus is clearly the bridegroom in this parable, I don't think your interpretation here lines up. No, the commentary I was reading made the argument that the bride is the Church, and that the virgins/bridesmaids were those who were to help the bride prepare herself for her bridegroom. The bridesmaids are then the pastors, prophets, teachers, and evangelists of the church. I'm not sure how much I agree with this interpretation because it still needs to take into fact the context of the surrounding parables, but its an interesting take. The reason I believe the 10 virgins refer to Christians and non-Christians is because half of the virgins never had oil to begin with. They were never saved. Never born with what Peter calls the incorruptible seed:

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.

I probably muddled the explanation.

Old Covenant Israel is Jews, those who rejected Jesus are broken out of it.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off...

So at this point we're looking at a 10 Virgin/Tribe Christian Israel with Jews + Gentiles graffed in, Romans 11:19. But then, some in this new Christian Israel can also be broken off.

Romans 11:22 ...if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So we have some wise remaining as Israel, and some fools broken out of it.

But the question is, how could members of a new Christian Israel be a part of it, then be broken off according to Romans 11:22, if they were never Christians?

[Adrift]

I probably muddled the explanation.

Old Covenant Israel is Jews, those who rejected Jesus are broken out of it.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off...

So at this point we're looking at a 10 Virgin/Tribe Christian Israel with Jews + Gentiles graffed in, Romans 11:19. But then, some in this new Christian Israel can also be broken off.

Romans 11:22 ...if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So we have some wise remaining as Israel, and some fools broken out of it.

But the question is, how could members of a new Christian Israel be a part of it, then be broken off according to Romans 11:22, if they were never Christians?

What makes you think Romans 11 is referring to Christian Israel? The indication we get from this chapter and previous chapters is that he's referring to the whole nation of Israel, not Messianic Jews.

But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

And where Paul writes:

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

He's not referring to Jewish and Gentile Christians, he's referring to Gentiles in general...

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles

Unbelieving Gentiles who refuse the grace of God will get the same treatment as unbelieving Jews. They will be cut off.

[John Goddard]

What makes you think Romans 11 is referring to Christian Israel? The indication we get from this chapter and previous chapters is that he's referring to the whole nation of Israel, not Messianic Jews.

I didn't really mention Messianics, or any specific denomination. Those Jews and Gentiles who remain in Israel believe and continue in goodness, those who are broken off don't. That's about what Romans 11 says.

And where Paul writes:

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

He's not referring to Jewish and Gentile Christians, he's referring to Gentiles in general...

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles

Unbelieving Gentiles who refuse the grace of God will get the same treatment as unbelieving Jews. They will be cut off.

Ok. But Paul is talking to Gentiles already graffed to Israel as Christians who have faith.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

He tells them they have faith, but also says they can be broken off too if they don't continue in goodness. Therefore, these Gentiles would have to convert to be Christians in order to ever be graffed into Israel. You can't break off a branch that was never attached in the first place.

So to say that these branches or virgins who are broken off and locked out were never Christians doesn't make sense. They would have to be Christians at one time in order to be attached so that they could be broken off if they did not continue in goodness.

[Adrift]

I didn't really mention Messianics, or any specific denomination.

When I refer to a Messianic, I mean those Jews who believe in Jesus, not a denomination.

Those Jews and Gentiles who remain in Israel believe and continue in goodness, those who are broken off don't. That's about what Romans 11 says.

He's not talking to Jews and Gentiles in Israel. He's talking to the Church in Rome. If by Israel you mean spiritual Israel, that still makes no sense since Gentiles were never in "spiritual" Israel to remain in Israel, and Paul says that those Jews who did not believe were broken off. Paul is clearly talking to people in groups. Jews. And Gentiles.

Ok. But Paul is talking to Gentiles already graffed to Israel as Christians who have faith.

He's talking to the Church of Rome in his letter, but he's pretty obviously referring to all Gentiles in general here:

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles

It wouldn't even make sense that he's referring to Gentiles who are only Christian. Why would Christians have to be grafted in? Why would salvation need to come to Christians? Christians are already grafted in. Are already saved. He's certainly referring to Gentiles in general as contrasted to Jews in general.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Again, since he's referring to Gentiles in general, this makes perfect sense. Anyone who does not believe is not grafted in.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And what is God's goodness or kindness? Its those same riches offered to the Gentiles in verse 12. Romans 11:29 clarifies

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

He tells them they have faith, but also says they can be broken off too if they don't continue in goodness. Therefore, these Gentiles would have to convert to be Christians in order to ever be graffed into Israel. You can't break off a branch that was never attached in the first place.

John, I don't mean to be insulting, but I think there's a reading comprehension problem here. You do this a lot actually, and I don't mean to call you out, but its something I've noticed in other threads and think someone should point it out to you so you're well aware. Here is how the ESV Study Bible breaks down these portion of scriptures you're having a hard time with, and this is my standard reading as well:

Rom. 11:18–20 Gentile believers are warned against arrogance, for it is God's saving promises (the root), not their own goodness, that saved them. Thus Gentiles might be tempted with pride because God removed the Jewish branches from the olive tree and grafted them in instead. But this should provoke fear and awe (Gk. phobeō, “to be afraid, have profound respect and reverence, have fear of offending”), for the Jews were removed because they failed to believe and the Gentiles remain only because of their continued trust.

So to say that these branches or virgins who are broken off and locked out were never Christians doesn't make sense. They would have to be Christians at one time in order to be attached so that they could be broken off if they did not continue in goodness.

I completely disagree, and taking into consideration the rest of scripture, that reading would make very little sense. You'd actually have to disregard verses like those I've already quoted to you in this thread. I hope you understand this better now. I will confess though that an interesting reading of the 5 virgins without oil could be the unbelieving Jews, but I think its probably a bit more inclusive.

[John Goddard]

When I refer to a Messianic, I mean those Jews who believe in Jesus, not a denomination.

There are Jews who identify as Christians but not Messianic Jews, vice-versa, they are not the same thing.

He's not talking to Jews and Gentiles in Israel. He's talking to the Church in Rome.

I never said he was talking to Jews, I said he was talking ABOUT unbelieving Jews in Romans 11:20.

Again, since he's referring to Gentiles in general, this makes perfect sense. Anyone who does not believe is not grafted in.

No he is not just talking to Gentiles in general, he is talking to Gentiles that are already standing in faith and already graffed in. You are having the reading problem.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

He is talking to Gentiles who are already standing in faith and warning them they can be broken off from Israel too, if they do not continue in goodness. And yes, not to get cocky about it.

So if they are already Christians standing in faith and graffed in, and Paul says they can be broken off like the 5 foolish virgins if they do not continue in goodness, where does that leave the idea that they could never be Christians to start with?

Pretty much refuted, else Paul would not be warning Gentiles who were already Christians.

[Adrift]

There are Jews who identify as Christians but not Messianic Jews, vice-versa, they are not the same thing.

Okay.

No he is not just talking to Gentiles in general, he is talking to Gentiles that are already standing in faith and already graffed in. You are having the reading problem.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

He is talking to Gentiles who are already standing in faith and warning them they can be broken off from Israel too, if they do not continue in goodness. And yes, not to get cocky about it.

So if they are already Christians standing in faith and graffed in, and Paul says they can be broken off like the 5 foolish virgins if they do not continue in goodness, where does that leave the idea that they could never be Christians to start with?

Pretty much refuted, else Paul would not be warning Gentiles who were already Christians.

Were there Jews who were Christians in Paul's age? Yes. Paul himself was a Jew as he makes clear at the beginning of Romans 11. Then why does Paul say that the Jews have been cut off? Because he's obviously not talking about the believing Jews, he's talking about Jews in general. And so it goes with Gentiles. Gentiles are grafted in. Into what? Into God's goodness, which is salvation. This is now available to ALL Gentiles, as it was/is available to all Jews. But, they too will be cut off in their unbelief. All of this talk of being grafted into an olive tree compliments Galatians 3:23 where Paul writes:

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

In the tree, we are all one in Christ Jesus through faith. Gentiles are grafted in heirs of the promise. Those who do not believe in Christ Jesus are outside of this scope. They are cut off.

I know your reading works well with your every-other-day-Christian theory. The one that says, today I'm a Christian, but tomorrow I might sin and not be a Christian, and then the next day I'm a Christian, and then the next I'm not. But salvation isn't like a suit you slip out of and into every time you sin and repent. When you make Jesus Lord you become a new creation. You retain habits of that old man nature, which you should resist, and put on the mind of Christ, but when you are born again, you are born with an imperishable, incorruptible seed.

[John Goddard]

And so it goes with Gentiles. Gentiles are grafted in. Into what? Into God's goodness, which is salvation.

Well, they are graffed into Israel as a people. Natural Olive is Jews, Wild Olive is Gentiles. The Olive Tree is Israel under Jesus.
---------------

To make it simple, I think we just disagree that 10 Tribes of Israel = 10 Virgins = Olive Tree, which includes Natural Jews as well as Wild Gentiles already graffed in as Christians.

And that the foolish virgins broken off the tree can include Gentiles who are already Christians, per Romans 11:22.

[FredFlanders]

So essentially its pure speculation on your part what happened to the other 380. You have no idea what their circumstances were, you don't know that they sinned and left Jerusalem. You can't really be certain because the scriptures only tell us a few things about them, that they saw the resurrected Jesus, that by Paul's time some have passed away, but many were still alive, and that they're still called brethren which signifies that they are in fellowship with the church.



You recently told me that one cannot be saved without having the Holy Spirit. That they are inextricably linked. And I've since shown you at least two example where people repented of their sins and made Jesus Lord and were saved.



Those who have repented and have made Jesus Lord have found what they seek, thus they receive the Holy Spirit.

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There he found some disciples. 2And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"



You'll need to clarify exactly where it spells out in scripture that between the moment of confessing one's sins, making Jesus Lord and actually receiving the Holy Spirit, Satan can come along and lead psuedo-Christians astray before the HS is imparted.



Nowhere in scripture does it say that these men converted because they desired solely to speak in tongues rather it reads: Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Witnessing the movement of the Holy Spirit and seeing the disciples speaking in their own tongue was pretty amazing to them, but what really cut them to their heart was Peter's speech. Then Peter makes it very very clear what they must do in order to receive what they seek:

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."



There is absolutely nothing in the Bible, that I've been able to read, that says that one is commanded to be with another person to receive the HS. You're drawing conclusions by filling in blanks. The scriptures are very very clear about what all one must do to receive the HS, and it never includes mandatory prayer with others.



You mean Acts 10:44-48 I believe, and again here we have nothing that says anything about mandatory prayer groups, laying on of hands, or even that speaking in tongues will absolutely necessarily happen. All that's laid up for the reader is an example of what happened to this particular group. In fact, we're even told exactly how they received the HS:

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.



That's not why I quoted this verse. I quoted it to show you that the Bible clearly says that we do not receive the HS and are not saved through our works, but through faith.



If by following through with the full gospel message you mean to repent and make Jesus Lord in our lives, then yes, I agree.



Are you actually saying that the parable of the virgins is actually referring to Christians with and without the Holy Spirit? You'll have to read into the parable to get that sort of interpretation out of it.

I want to repeat again, so you'll understand my position, that I see no scriptural issue with the laying on of hands, or with folks speaking in tongues after receiving the HS, but I haven't found anywhere in scripture where these things are explicitly spelled out that they must happen, and in fact, I've pointed out several instances where they don't seem to happen at all.
When Paul called the 500 brethren was because they were fellow Jews at the time and the NT covenant had not come as yet. If they did not enter into the NT covenant by being filled with the Holy Spirit then of course they would not be brethren in the Christian sense. When Jesus saw them it was not to have a cup of coffee with them but His message at that time was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. And yes there is not a lot of scripture on the 500 but you need to compare scripture with scripture.

We only get salvation through believing and following through with the full Gospel message. Repentance to Baptism in water to Baptism in the Holy Spirit to walking in the Spirit and growing from faith to faith.

Repentance means that I am now going to follow Christ with word and actions. When you make Jesus your Lord this means he is your Master and you follow Him according to His Word. If you o that the first part of the journey is baptism in water and then the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

They are all separate events.
Acts 2:38 Step 1 Repent and Step 2 be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and Step 3 you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You need to seek after and desire the Holy Spirit. You do not sit there and wait for a bolt from heaven.

In Acts 19 you will see these people are believers but did not have the Holy Spirit and went through the steps of baptism in water and then the Holy Spirit.

Acts 191And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I have never said you have to be with a person to receive the Holy Spirit. You can be by your self seeking for the Holy Spirit or in prayer with a number of believers seeking for the Holy Spirit or you ca n be with one person seeking for the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands can help.

In Acts 2 where they heard them speak in their own languages and others who did not understand thought they were drunk. The same can still happen today.

Believers can repent and say Jesus is my Lord as you have done and now you are all over the place with your walk and not conforming to the rest of the Gospel because false prophets have taken you on another path so you do not get the promises of being able to conform into the image of Christ with the ability to use all the gifts.

Eph 2 v 8 Yes we are saved by grace. Jesus paid the price for our sins and died in place of us. Now we have access to God without “works” and can conform into His image which was represented by Christ but only by the free gift of the Holy Spirit which you must seek after. Once you have the Holy Spirit it will remain with you for ever and you will have your prayer language of tongues to speak to God at any time.

A Christian is someone who is anointed with the Holy Spirit. Not everyone who makes Jesus there Lord has the Holy Spirit. This is what I am telling you now. Those who do not believe what I am saying will be like the 5 foolish virgins who called out Lord, Lord and the Master did not know them.

1 Cor 14 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[Adrift]

When Paul called the 500 brethren was because they were fellow Jews at the time and the NT covenant had not come as yet. If they did not enter into the NT covenant by being filled with the Holy Spirit then of course they would not be brethren in the Christian sense. When Jesus saw them it was not to have a cup of coffee with them but His message at that time was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. And yes there is not a lot of scripture on the 500 but you need to compare scripture with scripture.

Paul is clearly speaking presently about the 500 brothers, most of whom are alive at that time, but some are asleep. Anything else you have to say about the 500 is pure speculation.

We only get salvation through believing and following through with the full Gospel message. Repentance to Baptism in water to Baptism in the Holy Spirit to walking in the Spirit and growing from faith to faith.

Repentance means that I am now going to follow Christ with word and actions. When you make Jesus your Lord this means he is your Master and you follow Him according to His Word. If you o that the first part of the journey is baptism in water and then the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

They are all separate events.
Acts 2:38 Step 1 Repent and Step 2 be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and Step 3 you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You need to seek after and desire the Holy Spirit. You do not sit there and wait for a bolt from heaven.

In Acts 19 you will see these people are believers but did not have the Holy Spirit and went through the steps of baptism in water and then the Holy Spirit.

Acts 191And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I have never said you have to be with a person to receive the Holy Spirit. You can be by your self seeking for the Holy Spirit or in prayer with a number of believers seeking for the Holy Spirit or you ca n be with one person seeking for the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands can help.

In Acts 2 where they heard them speak in their own languages and others who did not understand thought they were drunk. The same can still happen today.

You're simply repeating yourself here and not really engaging the argument. You have no direct scriptural support for some of the things that you seem to be tiptoeing around, and that's been an issue throughout the conversation. I feel like I've had to drag an argument for your views out of you this whole time. Trying to find out what exactly you believe has been like trying to nail jello to a wall. There's a distinct feeling with you that you're never quite being forthright, or maybe you just don't know the answers to the questions.

Believers can repent and say Jesus is my Lord as you have done and now you are all over the place with your walk and not conforming to the rest of the Gospel because false prophets have taken you on another path so you do not get the promises of being able to conform into the image of Christ with the ability to use all the gifts.

Are you talking about MY walk? You don't know anything about me Fred. For all you know, I AM a tongue talking, spirit walking, son of a gun. You're about to pass judgment on a brother in Christ Jesus based purely on the anonymity of a internet message forum. That doesn't seem too wise to me.

Eph 2 v 8 Yes we are saved by grace. Jesus paid the price for our sins and died in place of us. Now we have access to God without “works” and can conform into His image which was represented by Christ but only by the free gift of the Holy Spirit which you must seek after. Once you have the Holy Spirit it will remain with you for ever and you will have your prayer language of tongues to speak to God at any time.

A Christian is someone who is anointed with the Holy Spirit. Not everyone who makes Jesus there Lord has the Holy Spirit. This is what I am telling you now. Those who do not believe what I am saying will be like the 5 foolish virgins who called out Lord, Lord and the Master did not know them.

1 Cor 14 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Okay, you've gone over most of this stuff already. You have no solid scriptural support for your assumption that not everyone who makes Jesus lord has the Holy Spirit. The only scriptural support you've been able to offer has been fairly vague examples that you've eisegeted your assumptions into, drawing conclusions, and reading into the lines where no scriptural support is actually found. I've pointed out plenty of scripture that has clearly and obviously refuted your clams, and spelled out exactly what one must do to obtain the Holy Spirit and be saved. You haven't actually made any clear argument to that scripture, all you've done most of the time is sort of skirted the issue and ignore the point. I see that you've carried on essentially the same conversation in another thread, so I'll leave you with the last word.

[FredFlanders]

Paul is clearly speaking presently about the 500 brothers, most of whom are alive at that time, but some are asleep. Anything else you have to say about the 500 is pure speculation.
You're simply repeating yourself here and not really engaging the argument. You have no direct scriptural support for some of the things that you seem to be tiptoeing around, and that's been an issue throughout the conversation. I feel like I've had to drag an argument for your views out of you this whole time. Trying to find out what exactly you believe has been like trying to nail jello to a wall. There's a distinct feeling with you that you're never quite being forthright, or maybe you just don't know the answers to the questions.



Are you talking about MY walk? You don't know anything about me Fred. For all you know, I AM a tongue talking, spirit walking, son of a gun. You're about to pass judgment on a brother in Christ Jesus based purely on the anonymity of a internet message forum. That doesn't seem too wise to me.
You have no solid scriptural support for your assumption that not everyone who makes Jesus lord has the Holy Spirit. I've pointed out plenty of scripture that has clearly and obviously refuted your clams, and spelled out exactly what one must do to obtain the Holy Spirit and be saved. You haven't actually made any clear argument to that scripture, all you've done most of the time is sort of skirted the issue and ignore the point. I see that you've carried on essentially the same conversation in another thread, so I'll leave you with the last word. The fundimental difference is you say we recieve the Holy Spirit when you believe. The Bible clearly shows it is a seperate event. This idea of yours is a deception to many. In Acts 8 Simon believed and wanted the Holy Spirit but he could not recieve it because his heart was not right with the Lord. It is a deception to tell some one they have the Holy Spirit when they do not. And their heart is not right and they need more guidance to have a heart right fot the Lord. Most on this thread will not recieve the Holy Spiriit because they want to follow Jesus acccording to their own rules rather by the word of God. You c

[Obsidian]

Fred, you keep applying passages around or even before the time of Pentacost universally to all other Christians. That was right when the Holy Spirit first came on the scene. It took a little while for the church age to become firmly established. For a while, Christians were still indulging in Jewish rituals, too. Things are different now -- Or have you personally experienced a flame on your head? Come on, man; you are seriously promoting heresy. Understand the truth.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you keep applying passages around or even before the time of Pentacost universally to all other Christians. That was right when the Holy Spirit first came on the scene. It took a little while for the church age to become firmly established. For a while, Christians were still indulging in Jewish rituals, too. Things are different now -- Or have you personally experienced a flame on your head? Come on, man; you are seriously promoting heresy. Understand the truth.
O, receiving the Holy Spirit is something you do after believing. You follow Christ by being baptised in water and then the Holy Spirit. Nothing has changed since the Day of Pentecost and the book of Acts. Read Luke 11 v 9 to 13, we are told to ask, seek and knock for the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you keep applying passages around or even before the time of Pentacost universally to all other Christians. That was right when the Holy Spirit first came on the scene. It took a little while for the church age to become firmly established. For a while, Christians were still indulging in Jewish rituals, too. Things are different now -- Or have you personally experienced a flame on your head? Come on, man; you are seriously promoting heresy. Understand the truth.
O, it says Like as tongues of Fire, it is using something physical to discribe something spiritual. It is this power of the Holy spirit that fills our body allows us to do the same works as Christ.