How do you limit God?

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

moved from Theology 201 to Unorthodox Theology as unorthodox views are being promoted in thread.


All the power and all the kingdom and all the glory!

Would you limit God to reaching people through only one denomination?

Would you limit God by thinking he can not reach someone through Catholicism. LDS, a baptist church or even a mosque?

Would you limit Jesus to a single appearance in the flesh?

Would you limit God to what you can decipher from texts of any sort?

Would you limit God to raising up only those who your church recognizes as true believers?

Would you judge knowing only God's judgment is righteous?

Would you limit God in any way?

My answers? I place absolutely no limits on God. I try my best to not judge others and I try my best to do what Jesus instructed as the basis of all the law and the prophets. You may do as you will. No matter what you do I extend love to you. :flowers:

[sc_q_jayce]

Those are some pretty hefty passive-aggressive questions/strawmen you got there.

[Kelp]

All the power and all the kingdom and all the glory!

Would you limit God to reaching people through only one denomination?

Would you limit God by thinking he can not reach someone through Catholicism. LDS, a baptist church or even a mosque?

Would you limit Jesus to a single appearance in the flesh?

Would you limit God to what you can decipher from texts of any sort?

Would you limit God to raising up only those who your church recognizes as true believers?

Would you judge knowing only God's judgment is righteous?

Would you limit God in any way?

My answers? I place absolutely no limits on God. I try my best to not judge others and I try my best to do what Jesus instructed as the basis of all the law and the prophets. You may do as you will. No matter what you do I extend love to you. :flowers:
None of this has anything to do with limiting God. Your problem is with people who claim that God decided to do things a certain specific and narrow way, not that it's all He was capable of.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Those are some pretty hefty passive-aggressive questions/strawmen you got there.
Are you too weak to shoulder the heft?

[themuzicman]

I only limit God in the ways that He has limited Himself.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

None of this has anything to do with limiting God. Your problem is with people who claim that God decided to do things a certain specific and narrow way, not that it's all He was capable of.
Why ever would you think I have a problem?

[Kelp]

The fact that you started a thread full of "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" type questions kind of tipped me off....


"He who is not for me is against me."--Jesus

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I only limit God in the ways that He has limited Himself.
Well I accept that with God all things are possible.

[themuzicman]

Well I accept that with God all things are possible.

And I accept that with God, His ways are the right ways.

Michael

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

The fact that you started a thread full of "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" type questions kind of tipped me off....


"He who is not for me is against me."--Jesus
Well Kelp let me adjust your perspective. Jesus as the only begotten Son of the Father appeared more than once in the flesh according to Acts. I am not trying to "set anyone up". I am asking a very serious question for those who would limit the Father.

[Bill the Cat]

Well I accept that with God all things are possible.

Is it possible for God to sin? Act in an unloving way? Give up His divinity?

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

And I accept that with God, His ways are the right ways.

Michael
Yes Michael. If, as Jesus said. a person has ears to hear them.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Is it possible for God to sin? Act in an unloving way? Give up His divinity? Are you not part of God? Have you sinned? If a part of God sins is the whole sinless?

[themuzicman]

Yes Michael. If, as Jesus said. a person has ears to hear them.

He who has an ear, let him hear:

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father, except through me."

Sounds like the Father has limited Himself to those who seek Him through the Son.

Michael

[Kelp]

Well Kelp let me adjust your perspective. Jesus as the only begotten Son of the Father appeared more than once in the flesh according to Acts. I am not trying to "set anyone up". I am asking a very serious question for those who would limit the Father.
Ok. So He appeared more than once. What of it?

*Note, if your reply is going to be something like, "Well then why don't you accept the Mormons' claim that He appeared in Mesoamerica?" I'm going to need detailed reasons for why I should accept that particular religion as not mutually exclusive to or true instead of Christianity.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

He who has an ear, let him hear:

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father, except through me."

Sounds like the Father has limited Himself to those who seek Him through the Son.

Michael
Ah... you quote one of the most misunderstood passages. Most who have heard it are deaf. But I do not take umbrage with your faith Michael. It is yours and you wear it well.

Jesus is the way in how he lived a sinless life. He loved even those who condemned and crucified him. "Comes to the Father" is where most fail to comprehend. You do not climb through the earthly body of Jesus like he is some trap door. You come to the Father the same way-- he is the way -- by living in love of others just as he gave his followers. Yes he died for our sins. Not for the sins of only Jews or only Catholics but also for the very sins of those who drove nails through his wrists. No greater love hath any man. Those who believe in Jesus knock and he answers. If you get knots in your gut over what I am saying then please ask him directly.

Love you Michael. :flowers:

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Ok. So He appeared more than once. What of it?

*Note, if your reply is going to be something like, "Well then why don't you accept the Mormons' claim that He appeared in Mesoamerica?" I'm going to need detailed reasons for why I should accept that particular religion as not mutually exclusive to or true instead of Christianity.
No Kelp I am not here to discuss Mormon claims. I haven't even bothered to ask Jesus whether or not he appeared in Mesoamerica. It just never seemed worth asking.

I will tell you that should Jesus decide (for whatever purpose) to incarnate in the flesh in your bedroom tonight He can.

[Kelp]

That's not an incarnation, that's an appearance. The Incarnation was when he took on flesh the first time.

Would Jesus ever physically appear to someone now (not can, would)? That's a tricky question in my theology. I would hardly abandon the exclusivity of Christianity if He did though.

[themuzicman]

Ah... you quote one of the most misunderstood passages. Most who have heard it are deaf. But I do not take umbrage with your faith Michael. It is yours and you wear it well.

Jesus is the way in how he lived a sinless life. He loved even those who condemned and crucified him. "Comes to the Father" is where most fail to comprehend. You do not climb through the earthly body of Jesus like he is some trap door. You come to the Father the same way-- he is the way -- by living in love of others just as he gave his followers. Yes he died for our sins. Not for the sins of only Jews or only Catholics but also for the very sins of those who drove nails through his wrists. No greater love hath any man. Those who believe in Jesus knock and he answers. If you get knots in your gut over what I am saying then please ask him directly.

Love you Michael. :flowers:

What is clear is that you've misunderstood Christ's message. No, you don't come through His body. However, eternal life comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus says this in John 6:40 and any number of other places.

he who has an ear, let him hear.

Michael

[JeromeD]

It almost seems that where one is suggesting we "limit God" by ever interpreting Him as not doing something is only using this idea as an excuse for personally made up beliefs, as if God forms private contracts.

Further, to say that God couldn't limit Himself in an action is to limit Him, if we are to be consistent on "not limiting God."

[Bill the Cat]

Are you not part of God? Have you sinned? If a part of God sins is the whole sinless?

No, I am not part of God.

[Jedidiah]

No, I am not part of God.

So true, Bill the Cat. Neither is Eeset part of God. We are all creations, believers and unbelievers.

[micah4]

How do you limit God? You probably need to get hold of an even bigger God, and have him install a governor or regulator or something. Is there a particular problem you're having with your God, because then I could give a more specific answer.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

No, I am not part of God.
Bill This is interesting. There is nothing outside of God, nothing beyond God, nothing external to God. Everything is of God. The act that God create us with free will does not mean that we are somehow beyond the scope of God. I think we are in to both semantics here and also in an area where our very tiny minds have difficulty comprehending that which cannot be comprehended. Do you consider a plant in the field or a rock on the road outside of God? God created everything and there is noting outside of God from which to assemble things. God does not go to a quarry external to God for materials. Even science is approaching understanding that everything in materiality is vibrations. Vibrations are sound. In the beginning was the word and the word was God. Our ears only perceive sound within a limited frequency range. Our eyes perceive vibrations in another limited range. Every sense we use to feed interactions in the material realm into our brains senses vibrations in a set of limited frequencies. Science, not religion, will come to a closer understanding that none of the material manifestations we call the universe exist outside of God for the very laws science seeks to unify its theories are the Word.

If anything exists apart from God or outside of God then the very language Jesus gave in his teaching of prayer is incorrect and although my own tiny mind cannot comprehend God I can accept that he is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory.

Part of my post here was to provide a perspective on the unity of the commandment to love God and others. It is axiomatic that failing to love others is a failure to love entities that are part of God. Jesus was serious when he asked who could drink of the cup which he drank of. Who could live so beyond the chains of manifestation into materiality that they would utter no cry o anguish when being whipped and tortured knowing that death on the cross was what would follow. This could not be done with any physical strength but only through love. Perhaps many could step in front of a bullet aimed at a child and do so willingly out of love but how many could do the same if the bullet was intended for someone who had just raped the child?

I am confident that your perspective is different and you will parse my words in your own way to advocate what is real from your mind. As you do please accept my love for I give it without regard to differences between us.
:flowers:

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

That's not an incarnation, that's an appearance. The Incarnation was when he took on flesh the first time.

Would Jesus ever physically appear to someone now (not can, would)? That's a tricky question in my theology. I would hardly abandon the exclusivity of Christianity if He did though.
Evidently you think the incarnation of spirit into a material body is restricted to procreation. An appearance is when someone who exists currently in the flesh arrives via walking, car or other earthly means to interact with others. An incarnation is when Spirit manifests in flesh in this material realm. Reincarnation is when spirit manifests in flesh more than once in a specific plane of materiality such as this solar system.

[Kelp]

No, I believe that Christ is always in the flesh after the Incarnation. An appearance would be just that, Him coming to this world.

[shunyadragon]

* moderator notice *


All the power and all the kingdom and all the glory!

Would you limit God to reaching people through only one denomination?

Would you limit God by thinking he can not reach someone through Catholicism. LDS, a baptist church or even a mosque?

Would you limit Jesus to a single appearance in the flesh?

Would you limit God to what you can decipher from texts of any sort?

Would you limit God to raising up only those who your church recognizes as true believers?

Would you judge knowing only God's judgment is righteous?

Would you limit God in any way?

My answers? I place absolutely no limits on God. I try my best to not judge others and I try my best to do what Jesus instructed as the basis of all the law and the prophets. You may do as you will. No matter what you do I extend love to you. :flowers:

This comes close to the Baha'i view where revelation and the potential of salvation is universal with humanity throughout history and all cultures. Religions, denominations and there variations are more the human view of God from the time of the revelation. This human view reflects revelation, but cannot be defined in a limiting doctrine and dogma of absolute belief.

In this view creation, revelation is universal not only in this world, but all possible worlds in a dynamic, cyclic evolving process that is also reflected in the nature of our physical existence.

God in the absolute sense is unknowable from the human perspective.

[John Goddard]

Well Kelp let me adjust your perspective. Jesus as the only begotten Son of the Father appeared more than once in the flesh according to Acts. I am not trying to "set anyone up". I am asking a very serious question for those who would limit the Father.

I believe Jesus appears 4 times in the flesh.

1. As child of David and Bathsheba.
2. As resurrected child of Mary.
3. Resurrected out of the tomb.
4. Returning from Heaven to Judge.

Fulfilling:

2 Samuel 12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold...

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

No, I believe that Christ is always in the flesh after the Incarnation. An appearance would be just that, Him coming to this world.
Sounds a bit like Star Trek. Just where do you believe he beams himself off to when he is "out of this world"?

What I find very intriguing is that Jesus lives today and yet people get all wrapped up in theological discussions instead of just knocking and establishing direct communication. Remember the parable of the mustard seed? It is one thing to say I accept Jesus as my personal savior and quite another to actually hear him in human voice. To those who scoff and say "no one has heard his voice since Paul" I say ... go beyond your unbelief. Reach out to him in humility with a sincere desire to do the will of the Father. There is absolutely nothing anyone or anything can do or say that can in anyway supplant, alter or diminish the love of God and others once a person has interacted directly with Jesus.

I opened this thread with questions. I did that to avoid being attacked for making statements but the result was the same. What I have seen here in the responses is funny to me and yet also sad. I get the distinct impression that I am viewed by some as a heretic. That puts me in very good company with my brother Jesus so I am comfortable with it. I was told to expect it. As long as I am viewed that way I may as well explain that there is no authority on earth which exceeds Jesus. No Pope, BOM, preacher, Bible, text of any sort or scholarly learning is greater than his authority and understanding. He himself has told me to not quibble over minutia and trivial differences in theology. I have absolute confidence that the vast majority of people who read these words will scoff and place them in their "unorthodox bin" of the tiny human mind or even the "loony bin". I really could care less how anyone views me. What I do care about is that maybe, just maybe, one or more will bow their head in holy meditation and ask "thy kingdom come, thy will be done". You see those words are not prophetic but proscriptive. When the will of the Father is done on earth as it is in Heaven then the Kingdom will be established. Please ask Jesus for I know you do not accept it from me. And please understand as you live each moment that my love goes with you undiminished by any differences in our hearts, minds and souls.
:flowers:

[Kelp]

Sounds a bit like Star Trek. Just where do you believe he beams himself off to when he is "out of this world"?
Wherever His body is when it isn't here. Where it went after the Ascension. Perhaps what most Christians think of as Heaven.

I don't know. It's not something God has specifically spoken on.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Wherever His body is when it isn't here. Where it went after the Ascension. Perhaps what most Christians think of as Heaven.

I don't know. It's not something God has specifically spoken on.
OK. So how does he get to wherever His body is when it isn't here? I suppose you might reply that you don't know and God has not specifically spoken on this matter either. Yet aren't there passages about witnesses to his ascension and other passages about seeing him return in the same manner? Please remember that I place no limits on God so I am not disputing with you. I am just curious how you conceive the process.

[Bill the Cat]

Bill This is interesting. There is nothing outside of God, nothing beyond God, nothing external to God. Everything is of God.

No, Eeset. That is incorrect. My stomach is inside of me and part of me. It is a human stomach. By us being "inside God", that makes us of the species of God, and hence making us God.

The act that God create us with free will does not mean that we are somehow beyond the scope of God. I think we are in to both semantics here and also in an area where our very tiny minds have difficulty comprehending that which cannot be comprehended. Do you consider a plant in the field or a rock on the road outside of God? God created everything and there is noting outside of God from which to assemble things. God does not go to a quarry external to God for materials. Even science is approaching understanding that everything in materiality is vibrations.

Beginning to understand? They've known that for hundreds of years!

Vibrations are sound.

Only when air is moved by that vibration.

In the beginning was the word and the word was God.

The Word is Christ. Comparing Him to a simple sound wave is beyond strange.

Our ears only perceive sound within a limited frequency range. Our eyes perceive vibrations in another limited range. Every sense we use to feed interactions in the material realm into our brains senses vibrations in a set of limited frequencies. Science, not religion, will come to a closer understanding that none of the material manifestations we call the universe exist outside of God for the very laws science seeks to unify its theories are the Word.

Existing "outside" of God is an oxymoron. However, God is not composed of His creation, as if by Him creating, He got bigger.

If anything exists apart from God or outside of God then the very language Jesus gave in his teaching of prayer is incorrect and although my own tiny mind cannot comprehend God I can accept that he is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory.

As I said above, God is not "composed" of us, as if our collective selves add up to God.

Part of my post here was to provide a perspective on the unity of the commandment to love God and others. It is axiomatic that failing to love others is a failure to love entities that are part of God. Jesus was serious when he asked who could drink of the cup which he drank of.

That was His death, the death of a martyr.

Who could live so beyond the chains of manifestation into materiality that they would utter no cry or anguish when being whipped and tortured knowing that death on the cross was what would follow. This could not be done with any physical strength but only through love. Perhaps many could step in front of a bullet aimed at a child and do so willingly out of love but how many could do the same if the bullet was intended for someone who had just raped the child?

I am confident that your perspective is different and you will parse my words in your own way to advocate what is real from your mind. As you do please accept my love for I give it without regard to differences between us.
:flowers:

I find your words overly analytical and full of "word of the day" dictionary words. You could say so much more with much fewer words and would probably be easier to understand if you just say what you mean instead of taking 3 paragraphs full of 8 syllable adjectives to make a single point. The neo-Gnosticism that I see from your posts is why I answer you periodically. The point is to make you aware that you are diverging from the faith of Jesus and the Apostles. Whether you accept it or not is up to you.

[Kelp]

OK. So how does he get to wherever His body is when it isn't here? I suppose you might reply that you don't know and God has not specifically spoken on this matter either. Yet aren't there passages about witnesses to his ascension and other passages about seeing him return in the same manner? Please remember that I place no limits on God so I am not disputing with you. I am just curious how you conceive the process.
If you want me to speculate, I guess I could point to ideas of quantum whereby Jesus can manipulate the molecules of His body. Or perhaps it is some sort of property of the Resurrection body to be able to pass through other matter at will. I don't know.

It's not something I've theorized about, because it seems kind of pointless to try, to me.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I find your words overly analytical and full of "word of the day" dictionary words. You could say so much more with much fewer words and would probably be easier to understand if you just say what you mean instead of taking 3 paragraphs full of 8 syllable adjectives to make a single point. The neo-Gnosticism that I see from your posts is why I answer you periodically. The point is to make you aware that you are diverging from the faith of Jesus and the Apostles. Whether you accept it or not is up to you.
Bill I just stumbled across your reply which is has lain unanswered for some time. My oversight. You tell me I diverge from the faith of Jesus and that makes me chuckle because I am amazed how many people spout off about Jesus and faith yet seem to have never met him. Let me draw you a contrast here. I have faith that you exist only because of the words you author here on this site. You and I have never met nor have we talked in the physical presence of each other. If someone tells me that Bill lives and I accept that it would be a faith and acceptance of the testimony of another. That is like the kind of Christianity I see frequently and even predominately in our world today. Now let me contrast that with my experience with my brother Jesus. I did what scripture admonishes us to do. I sought and asked and continued to do those things for decades. Then I experienced direct interaction with Jesus. Yes I mean he answered me in human voice and with clarity, depth and beauty that I can not describe. He did not materialize in human body next to me just as he did not when he spoke to Paul as written in Acts. I doubt you will believe me just as most of the apostles did not believe Paul. I'm OK with that but you should wrap your mind around a simple fact. I have no need of blind faith in Jesus for I have been blessed with direct interaction. It is my fervent desire that every single living human being experience the same interaction. That is my constant prayer. I know it is possible. I think I know why it is unlikely but perhaps I am wrong. For decades I sought in ignorance. I prayed, pleaded at times and even cried in exhausted frustration. I did not understand that I was the one blocking communication. It boiled down to my own inability to follow his commandment. As I age and slowly began to put love of God and others truly in all 3 aspects of my being (heart, mind and soul) I approached closer and closer to the state where he would answer but I was not aware that this was happening. I was literally removing the massive grit from my own eyes and refraining from worrying about the small speck in the eyes of someone else.

How does that relate to this post on do we limit God you might ask. When I author a post it is not for the purpose of beating others into submission unto my creeds or understandings but rather to hopefully stimulate others to examine how they approach their own world and understandings. I care nothing for this or that specific creed. What I care about is others and hopefully being in some way of assistance in their lives. That is also the reason why I care nothing for labels such as "orthodox" and hold such distinctions as superfluous. Ever since Adam humans have attached labels to everything they encounter so I view that as part of life but it can be destructive in a sense. Jesus would never have had a meal with sinners and tax collectors if he had presented himself to them as a Pharisee or Sadducee. That itself would have turned them away. Try wearing a police uniform and walking into a bar in a ghetto. You will experience something similar to the point I am attempting to make. I apologize for the inadequacy of my words to properly convey ideas at times. I am no Shakespeare nor even a Mark Twain. I am a simple person with many failings and conveying concepts in text clearly is often beyond my capabilities. So why do I try? I love you. You are of God and a part of God.

Blessings. :flowers:

[Nature]

God is limited by the power of perception of those who try to understand it.