Open Season for Vision of God

[EphremHagos]

It is a matter of greatest concern when there are few or no reported cases of visions of God during an extended season, such as our time, for such open visions promised and fulfilled long ago in Scriptures.
“This is what I will do in the last days, God says: I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and daughters will proclaim my message; your young men will see visions, and your old men will have dreams. Yes, even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will proclaim my message. I will perform miracles in the sky above and wonders on the earth below. There will be blood, fire and thick smoke; the sun will be darkened, and the moon will turn red as blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes. And whoever calls out to the Lord for help will be saved.”
Acts 2: 17-21 quoting Joel 2: 28-32

The terms of reference, defining clearly the promise as well as the factors and scope of open vision of self-revelation of God, are all given. Specifically, Scriptures highlight again and again the independence of God’s life-giving Spirit in face-to-face confrontation with the worthlessness of matter or man’s power, i.e., the flesh (John 6: 62-63) beginning from the standard of a self-sufficient flame (complete with the name, “I Am Who I Am”) coming from the middle of the unconsumed bush (Ex. 3: 1-15) to the climax of self-sufficient life (with the identical name of “I Am Who I Am”) in the death of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 8: 21-28; 19: 30-37) as final evidence of the self-revelation of the one true God in terms of his absolute power over death and life! This is also the context which defines the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not as an off-the-cuff set of separate events, but premeditated and simultaneous, strictly “according to the Scriptures”, and subject to personal verification without which even the majority of the twelve disciples ran and hid for their lives (Luke 24: 25-27)!
Therefore, the Christian practice of acceptance of Jesus Christ on the strength of hearsay and “by faith” is not defensible! It should be noted that there are no less than two references made by Jesus Christ, on the first days of Introduction to Discipleship Training, to the significance and nature of specific visions as a basis for faith (John 1: 35-42 especially verse 39; verses 43-51).
The open season is open for discussion!

[Obsidian]

What do you think "last days" meant? Peter applied the passage to his time.

[EphremHagos]

What do you think "last days" meant? Peter applied the passage to his time.

As first applied by Peter (Acts 2: 17-21), "last days" referred retroactively and more specifically to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and life-giving work therein backdated to the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, i.e., the defining day of his self-revelation (John 8: 21-28), as prophesied (Joel 2: 28-32) and also promised by Jesus Christ (John 6: 39-40, 43, 54; 12:48).

[Gatsby]

From Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's 1


Who is god?

That unique indwelling omnipresence that is never tainted nor touched by the ground of actions and their reactions, which afflict ignorant individuals; that which is left-over after the ego-ignorance-collapse; that special inner ruler or intelligence which is unconditioned by time and whose will alone prevails even in the body. In it there is oneness, never divided. It is therefore beyond ignorance and its progeny

Regards
Gatsby

[Johnny MacManky]

It is a matter of greatest concern when there are few or no reported cases of visions of God . . . for such open visions promised and fulfilled long ago in Scriptures.
“This is what I will do in the last days, God says: I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your . . . young men will see visions . . . ..

:huh: The prophecy is that "Your . . . young men will see visions". Where did you get the idea that in the last days, . . . young men will see visions of God?

[Obsidian]

Ephrem, I was trying to get you to understand that "last days" meant last days of the Old Covenant era. It doesn't necessarily apply to our time. Why would we even need visions and prophecies nowadays when we can just read the Bible, the words of Paul and the apostles, and even the words of Jesus himself?

[Gatsby]

:huh: The prophecy is that "Your . . . young men will see visions". Where did you get the idea that in the last days, . . . young men will see visions of God?

Hi , there are visions and prophecy, they have just been denounced by orthodox religion.

Many have had visions vi NDE's, many have witnessed eathquakes, volcanoes erupting, wars breaking out, famine in many lands and yet you misunderstand. Whay kind of visions are you expecting. I would say that the end days as prophesised are well and truly here.

This does not mean the end of the world or the end of life in the world, the earth is currently ascending to a higher rate of vibration bringing the prophesy to fruition. The earth being cleansed. Also, the saying, which is true: As above, so below; There will be no heaven or earth for these things will have passed away as we know them.

Regards
Gatsby

[John Goddard]

What do you think "last days" meant? Peter applied the passage to his time.

Here Peter warns people not to jump the gun, that the last days may seem "soon" to God but may be thousands of years away for men.

2 Peter 3:7-10 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Unless you are YEC, a few thousand years until this type of literal end IS pretty soon in the big picture and eyes of God, if the earth has been around over 4 billion years.

[EphremHagos]

Ephrem, I was trying to get you to understand that "last days" meant last days of the Old Covenant era. It doesn't necessarily apply to our time. Why would we even need visions and prophecies nowadays when we can just read the Bible, the words of Paul and the apostles, and even the words of Jesus himself?

How else can one know the LORD, as promised, firsthand and personally?

If all the writers of the Bible had their visions and inspirations, should we settle for less especially when the promise is for all to know the LORD from the least to the greatest without any human intermediaries (Jer. 31: 31-34); to be born again in his image (John 3: 1-21) and learn directly from God (John 6:45).

[EphremHagos]

Here Peter warns people not to jump the gun, that the last days may seem "soon" to God but may be thousands of years away for men.

2 Peter 3:7-10 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Unless you are YEC, a few thousand years until this type of literal end IS pretty soon in the big picture and eyes of God, if the earth has been around over 4 billion years.

This is not wishful thinking at all!

If everyone has an equal opportunity of knowing the LORD, firsthand and personally, as per the terms and seal of the "new covenant" (Jer. 31: 31-34; Matt. 26: 26-29 ff); and everyone will be taught by God (John 6:45), accordingly, it makes all the difference in the world.

The possibility is still here with us!

[EphremHagos]

Hi , there are visions and prophecy, they have just been denounced by orthodox religion.

Many have had visions vi NDE's, many have witnessed eathquakes, volcanoes erupting, wars breaking out, famine in many lands and yet you misunderstand. Whay kind of visions are you expecting. I would say that the end days as prophesised are well and truly here.

This does not mean the end of the world or the end of life in the world, the earth is currently ascending to a higher rate of vibration bringing the prophesy to fruition. The earth being cleansed. Also, the saying, which is true: As above, so below; There will be no heaven or earth for these things will have passed away as we know them.

Regards
Gatsby
Sorry, I lost my message for you in direct transmission.

[Obsidian]

How else can one know the LORD, as promised, firsthand and personally

If you're an unbeliever, you read the the gospel of John and believe what it says. Then he gives you the Holy Spirit, and you keep on reading the rest of the Bible and believe what it says, and try to obey it.

If all the writers of the Bible had their visions and inspirations, should we settle for less

Yes, we should settle -- because Paul specifically implies (1 Corinthians 12) that not all believers are prophets.

And I don't believe that Jeremiah was denying the necessity of human intermediaries for teaching God's word. He was simply stating that salvation will be expansive, for entire communities of people who believe.

[Johnny MacManky]

Hi , there are visions and prophecy, they have just been denounced by orthodox religion.

Many have had visions vi NDE's, many have witnessed eathquakes, volcanoes erupting, wars breaking out, famine in many lands and yet you misunderstand. Whay kind of visions are you expecting. I would say that the end days as prophesised are well and truly here.

This does not mean the end of the world or the end of life in the world, the earth is currently ascending to a higher rate of vibration bringing the prophesy to fruition. The earth being cleansed. Also, the saying, which is true: As above, so below; There will be no heaven or earth for these things will have passed away as we know them.

Regards
Gatsby

Hi Gatsby,

I have no problem per sé with visions, etc. I was specifically wondering (given the passage of Scripture cited) where EphremHagos got the idea that the visions mentioned in Acts 2: 17-21 quoting Joel 2: 28-32 would be "open vision[s] of self-revelation of God" (EphremHagos #1).

:johnny:

[Gatsby]

Hi Gatsby,

I have no problem per sé with visions, etc. I was specifically wondering (given the passage of Scripture cited) where EphremHagos got the idea that the visions mentioned in Acts 2: 17-21 quoting Joel 2: 28-32 would be "open vision[s] of self-revelation of God" (EphremHagos #1).

:johnny:

Hi Johnny, reading from Joel 2 it states that no harm will come to those who come from God. This is talking about the Spirit which is eternal and cannot be destroyed...ever!

The flesh wouldn't decay because it has been spiritualised, which was what happened to Jesus at the ressurection. It is a prophesy certainly but the interpetation of it is probably unsure where the Christian orthodox is concerned.

Those who become 'enlightened' knowing that they are One with God are in effect 'saved' from the world and those in the world. The Biblical passage also talks about all following the path of Jesus, and this is true, it must be done by all regardless of the religious domination. This means that God beomes One with you or you become One with God. Each one must do this individually although what one does, affects all, which is something that most Christians and other denominations fail to realise.

We have had seer's for all ages, but again, the orthodoxy wouldn't beleive them preffering to beleive that they have the 'devil' in them or they are possesed by some 'evil spirit'.

The end days are upon us, but we are thousands of years away from that yet, we are now just at the beginning of these end days.

Regards
Gatsby

[EphremHagos]

Hi Gatsby,

I have no problem per sé with visions, etc. I was specifically wondering (given the passage of Scripture cited) where EphremHagos got the idea that the visions mentioned in Acts 2: 17-21 quoting Joel 2: 28-32 would be "open vision[s] of self-revelation of God" (EphremHagos #1).

:johnny:

"Specifically wondering (given the passage of Scripture cited) where Ephrem Hagos got the idea that the visions mentioned in Acts 2: 17-21 quoting Joel 2: 28-32 would be 'open vision(s) of self-revelation of God'" is getting the message right!

The terms of the “new covenant” clearly promise and deliver firsthand and personal knowledge of the LORD by all (Jer. 31: 34), in the seal of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross (Matt. 26: 26-29 ff), according to the standard established in many precedents in the books of Moses with-out which our knowledge of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ will be secondhand, superficial and nominal at best (John 20:9; Luke 24: 25-27).

For any serious students, the gospel of Jesus Christ, is based on powerful visions of his absolute authority and not on hearsay (John 1: 47-51). The details are defined in principle and practice in the course of his training of disciples past, present and future of which I am one witness.

Therefore, nothing could be more constructive than more questions and discussions, from as many as possible, to verify personally and agree on God's truth. AMEN!

[Levy]

To start, I'm a Pentecostal, have been my whole life.

I do think there are some people who are way off in the whole Charismatic movement as well.

To go on though, I think the Gifts of the Spirit are still active today. That speaking in Tongues is for today. That prophecy is for today, and so on.

I've seen the evidence of this by experience.

[EphremHagos]

If you're an unbeliever, you read the the gospel of John and believe what it says. Then he gives you the Holy Spirit, and you keep on reading the rest of the Bible and believe what it says, and try to obey it.



Yes, we should settle -- because Paul specifically implies (1 Corinthians 12) that not all believers are prophets.

And I don't believe that Jeremiah was denying the necessity of human intermediaries for teaching God's word. He was simply stating that salvation will be expansive, for entire communities of people who believe.

There is great lesson for all of us in the rejection of Nathanael's confession of faith in Jesus Christ ("You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel"), based wholly on hearsay ("I saw you when you were under the fig-tree before Philip called you"), for being premature and preemptive of the final vision of Jesus Christ's absolute authority (John 1: 47-51). This is the great omission in Christianity today!

The damage of being evasive about what the LORD said once, "None of them will have to teach his fellow countryman to know the LORD, because all will know me, from the least to the greatest" (Jer. 31:34) and again, "Everyone will be taught by God" (John 6:45) is incalculable because the prospect is literally true as I fofund out to my utter surprise!

[EphremHagos]

To start, I'm a Pentecostal, have been my whole life.

I do think there are some people who are way off in the whole Charismatic movement as well.

To go on though, I think the Gifts of the Spirit are still active today. That speaking in Tongues is for today. That prophecy is for today, and so on.

I've seen the evidence of this by experience.

If tested rigorously against the known TIMING of the "giving of gifts to mankind", i.e., "seeing the Son of Man go back up to the place where he was before" or de-incarnation: the standard litmus test of visions of uselessness of the power of man ("dead in the flesh") pitted against "God's life-giving Spirit" (John 6: 62-63; Eph. 4: 7-13), I am sure that even our so-called "gifts, tongues and prophecy" will be blown away for good!

[EphremHagos]

The best way to authenticate current visions of God work is to study carefully precedents and their terms of reference in Scriptures as they happened. The following are highlights:

1. CONCEPT: initiative ("life-giving breath" or God's Spirit) and maintenance thereof, i.e., God's image in man, through the "tree of life"(Gen. 2: 7-17; John 6: 62-63);

2. BENCH MARK with futurity: "I Am Who I Am" (Ex. 3: 1-15; John 8: 21-28);

3. TERMS of the "new covenant" (Jer. 31: 31-34);

4. SEAL of the "new covenant" (Matt. 26: 26-29; John 19:30);

5. OPEN SEASON for visions of God, for all people, in the "new covenant" (Matt. 27: 50-56; John 19: 31-37; Acts 1: 3; 2:14-42; Rev. 5; Quran: Surah IV: 156-159; and great potential of wide, universal incidence of the "tree of life" or herald of the cross of Christ in many of the world's cultures as overdue application of John 4: 21-24 or worship of "the one true God" without any religious frontiers or "as He really is", i.e., in Spirit and truth).

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Johnny MacManky]

. . . 5. OPEN SEASON for visions of God, for all people, in the "new covenant" (Matt. 27: 50-56; John 19: 31-37; Acts 1: 3; 2:14-42; Rev. 5; Quran: Surah IV: 156-159; . . .

(My emphasis.)

Hang on a moment... are my eyes deceiving me, or did you just cite the Quran in support of your position? Do you consider that the Quran is Scripture and is consistant with the New Covenant?

[EphremHagos]

(My emphasis.)

Hang on a moment... are my eyes deceiving me, or did you just cite the Quran in support of your position? Do you consider that the Quran is Scripture and is consistant with the New Covenant?

ABSOLUTELY!

Surah IV, 156-159, in particular, is like a precious jewel in the crown of the King, beautifully consistent with the terms and seal of the “new covenant” (already referenced); as provided to disciples, of all times, with lines for follow-up (John 1: 50-51; 3: 14-21; 4: 21-24; 6: 62-63; 8: 21-28, etc.); and also chronologically witnessed by the following:

1. Those who, through their alertness and prayer, had unlike us “the strength to go safely through all those things that happened and dared to stand before the Son of Man” (Luke 21: 34-36) in the final vision of the unfolding glory or absolute authority of Jesus Christ over death and life right on the cross included “the disciple Jesus loved”, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea (John 19: 26, 30-42); some women: probably the mother of James and John; and Mary, the sister of Lazarus (Ibid, verses 25-26); and notably, an army officer (Matt. 27: 50-56);
2. The Apostles under 40-day of replay and rehabilitation (Acts 1: 1-5);
3. 120 believers and 3,000 other converts on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2: 1-47); and
4. Saul aka Paul (Acts 9:1-25; Eph. 4: 4-13 playing on the refrain of seeing Christ “going up to the place where he was before” and its bonus).

Therefore, there is no doubt, whatsoever, about the consistency of following lines in the Quran (English Translation: Surah IV), with the books of Moses, the writings of the prophets and the final events of great power and glory on the ground, preserving in form and substance the mystery and power involved in the defining moment of Jesus Christ as developed and presented earlier in the gospels.

“They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mariam. They declared: ‘We have put to death al-Masih Isa the son of Mariam, the Apostle of Allah’. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they mistook the crucified one for him.
“Those that disagreed about him were in doubt concerning him for what they knew about it was sheer conjecture; they did not kill him for certain. Allah lifted him up to Him; He is Mighty Wise. There is none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them” (157-159).

[EphremHagos]

(My emphasis.)

Hang on a moment... are my eyes deceiving me, or did you just cite the Quran in support of your position? Do you consider that the Quran is Scripture and is consistant with the New Covenant?

POSTSCRIPT

As statement of FACT, Surah IV: 157-158, in the Holy Quran, is a great testimony of the Gospel truth for the HYPOTHESIS suggested in John 6: 62-63 for which there is infallible PROOF at the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, "according to the Scriptures" of Moses and the writings of the prophets (Matt. 27: 50-56; John 19: 30-37: Luke 24: 25-27).

Let us be careful lest we turn ourselves into "enemies of the cross of Christ"!

[EphremHagos]

REMINDER: AN IRREVOCABLE PROMISE

“Behold, the LORD!”

If “the repetition of a dream means that the matter is fixed by God and that he will make it happen in the near future” (Gen. 41:32), how much more imminence there was in the extremely important vision-based promise given at the very beginning (Day 1) and repeated at the closing (Last Day) of Jesus’ ministry to guarantee the great terms of the “new covenant”! (Jer. 31: 31-34; Matt. 26: 26-29).

“Beholding the LORD” is all about accepting God’s promise to give the world a second chance through the “tree of life” –the source of “the light” to come to for one’s salvation or stay away from for one’s self-condemnation! (John 3: 18-21).

DAY 1
(Jesus questioned Nathanael’s confession of faith based on hearsay and promised a much greater way.)

“I am telling you the truth: you will see heaven open and God’s angels going up and coming down on the Son of Man” (John 1:51).

LAST DAY
(Jesus is interrogated before the Jewish Council on charges of Blasphemy.)

High Priest: “In the name of the living God I now put you on oath: tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God”.

Jesus: “So you say. But I tell of you: from this time on you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right of the Almighty and coming on the clouds of heaven!” (Matt. 26: 63-64)

Conclusion

Immediate opening of the Season for Unending Visions of the divine identity and authority of Jesus Christ as Almighty God in person, i.e., “I Am Who I Am”, based on the polarity between God’s essence (Spirit) and man’s power (flesh) and their separation, as demonstrated in “the Son of Man going back to the place where he was before”, i.e., to “glory” right at Jesus’ death on the cross (John 6: 62-63; 8: 21-28; 17: 1-5; 19: 30-37). This is the final fulfillment of the promise to Moses at the bush on fire but not burning up perfectly fitting the name forever, viz.: “I Am Who I Am” –a name by which all future generations are to call God! (Ex. 3: 1-15).

Do not live to regret not having looked at him whom they pierced for your vision-based, firsthand and personal knowledge of and real faith in the only true God with one name: “I Am Who I Am” –self-sufficient life! (Zech. 14: 6-9; John 19:37)

GBY.

[EphremHagos]

Hi Gatsby,

I have no problem per sé with visions, etc. I was specifically wondering (given the passage of Scripture cited) where EphremHagos got the idea that the visions mentioned in Acts 2: 17-21 quoting Joel 2: 28-32 would be "open vision[s] of self-revelation of God" (EphremHagos #1).

:johnny:

I hope that a little more on the subject will serve as good food for thought and faith.

According to the Scriptures of Moses, the writings of the prophets and the Psalms, there is no greater opportune moment for the sustainable "voice" (John 5:25) and "vision" (Ibid, 8: 21-28) than the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, i.e. the "tree of life" (John 1: 47-51; 14: 15-21; Matt. 26: 62-64; John 19: 30-37). Is there? (References sparingly used.)

[Gatsby]

REMINDER: AN IRREVOCABLE PROMISE

“Behold, the LORD!”

If “the repetition of a dream means that the matter is fixed by God and that he will make it happen in the near future” (Gen. 41:32), how much more imminence there was in the extremely important vision-based promise given at the very beginning (Day 1) and repeated at the closing (Last Day) of Jesus’ ministry to guarantee the great terms of the “new covenant”! (Jer. 31: 31-34; Matt. 26: 26-29).

“Beholding the LORD” is all about accepting God’s promise to give the world a second chance through the “tree of life” –the source of “the light” to come to for one’s salvation or stay away from for one’s self-condemnation! (John 3: 18-21).

DAY 1
(Jesus questioned Nathanael’s confession of faith based on hearsay and promised a much greater way.)

“I am telling you the truth: you will see heaven open and God’s angels going up and coming down on the Son of Man” (John 1:51).

LAST DAY
(Jesus is interrogated before the Jewish Council on charges of Blasphemy.)

High Priest: “In the name of the living God I now put you on oath: tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God”.

Jesus: “So you say. But I tell of you: from this time on you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right of the Almighty and coming on the clouds of heaven!” (Matt. 26: 63-64)

Conclusion

Immediate opening of the Season for Unending Visions of the divine identity and authority of Jesus Christ as Almighty God in person, i.e., “I Am Who I Am”, based on the polarity between God’s essence (Spirit) and man’s power (flesh) and their separation, as demonstrated in “the Son of Man going back to the place where he was before”, i.e., to “glory” right at Jesus’ death on the cross (John 6: 62-63; 8: 21-28; 17: 1-5; 19: 30-37). This is the final fulfillment of the promise to Moses at the bush on fire but not burning up perfectly fitting the name forever, viz.: “I Am Who I Am” –a name by which all future generations are to call God! (Ex. 3: 1-15).

Do not live to regret not having looked at him whom they pierced for your vision-based, firsthand and personal knowledge of and real faith in the only true God with one name: “I Am Who I Am” –self-sufficient life! (Zech. 14: 6-9; John 19:37)

GBY.

I Am That I AM!! I think you mean. However the body of flesh has no power of it's own. It only has the power that we give it. It is mean as a vessel for the Holy Spirit to work through and express Itself through. As long as we feel we are seperate from God and from each other we will not know God. Once we realise that we are whole and one with God then all things will change for the better.

Regards
Gatsby

[EphremHagos]

I Am That I AM!! I think you mean. However the body of flesh has no power of it's own. It only has the power that we give it. It is mean as a vessel for the Holy Spirit to work through and express Itself through. As long as we feel we are seperate from God and from each other we will not know God. Once we realise that we are whole and one with God then all things will change for the better.

Regards
Gatsby

There are exciting possibilities in God's initiatives not ours! How can any individuals initiate reconciliation with God and with their fellow human beings, anyway, when they are self-estranged in themselves?

The eternal name of God stands or falls on its merit of specificity of his nature, viz.: self-sufficiency, expressed either as "the tree of life" (Gen. 2: 7-9); "a flame coming from the middle of a bush on fire but not burning up" (Ex. 3: 1-15) or "source of life" completely independent of the flesh as in the death of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 1:4; 5:26; 6: 62-63; 8: 21-28; 19: 30-37).

What initiatives can any man take to remedy the differences between the natures, thoughts and ways of God and men" which remain as high as the heavens are above the earth" ?(Isa. 56:8-9) None whatsoever!

[Gatsby]

There are exciting possibilities in God's initiatives not ours! How can any individuals initiate reconciliation with God and with their fellow human beings, anyway, when they are self-estranged in themselves?

The eternal name of God stands or falls on its merit of specificity of his nature, viz.: self-sufficiency, expressed either as "the tree of life" (Gen. 2: 7-9); "a flame coming from the middle of a bush on fire but not burning up" (Ex. 3: 1-15) or "source of life" completely independent of the flesh as in the death of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 1:4; 5:26; 6: 62-63; 8: 21-28; 19: 30-37).

What initiatives can any man take to remedy the differences between the natures, thoughts and ways of God and men" which remain as high as the heavens are above the earth" ?(Isa. 56:8-9) None whatsoever!

Hi Ephrem, the initiative that we all must make and can make is to see God in everything and everyone. Treat all as we ourselves wish to be treated. Overlook others errors, dont dwell on them and forgive those who do not know the laws of God or work with the laws of God for they are ignorant of thier own creations. They are more to be pitied than condemed.

God cares not what we call him. This is a misnomer. He is the Creator regardeless of what we call him. Jesus instructed that we call him Father for that is what he is. Life is what He is, Love is what he is....got the picture now?

Regards
Gatsby

[EphremHagos]

Hi Ephrem, the initiative that we all must make and can make is to see God in everything and everyone. Treat all as we ourselves wish to be treated. Overlook others errors, dont dwell on them and forgive those who do not know the laws of God or work with the laws of God for they are ignorant of thier own creations. They are more to be pitied than condemed.

God cares not what we call him. This is a misnomer. He is the Creator regardeless of what we call him. Jesus instructed that we call him Father for that is what he is. Life is what He is, Love is what he is....got the picture now?

Regards
Gatsby

Of course I get your "picture" which omits, perhaps unintentionally, the persistent, long and dominant record of all the prejudices, hates, divisions and wars that continue to overwhelm the history of man and his religions (including Christianity).

The reason is the total absence of correspondence between the image of God as self-revealed and as imagined by men thus making unattainable our ideals of "seeing God in everything and everyone; treating all as we ourselves wish to be treated; overlooking the errors of others, etc."

If we do not know God (a misnomer) and call him by his one, nature-specific name, i.e., "I Am Who I Am" (or self-sufficient life) as revealed in Jesus Christ's death on the cross (the universal "tree of life"), therefore, we will live and die in our sins (John 8: 21-28).

[Gatsby]

Of course I get your "picture" which omits, perhaps unintentionally, the persistent, long and dominant record of all the prejudices, hates, divisions and wars that continue to overwhelm the history of man and his religions (including Christianity).

The reason is the total absence of correspondence between the image of God as self-revealed and as imagined by men thus making unattainable our ideals of "seeing God in everything and everyone; treating all as we ourselves wish to be treated; overlooking the errors of others, etc."

If we do not know God (a misnomer) and call him by his one, nature-specific name, i.e., "I Am Who I Am" (or self-sufficient life) as revealed in Jesus Christ's death on the cross (the universal "tree of life"), therefore, we will live and die in our sins (John 8: 21-28).

Ephrem, I understand what your saying and I did indeed forget to mention all the negative and destructive behaviour such as war's prejudices, hates etc that have been the by word for mankind during the course of eveolution of thier souls. They haven't evolved much, have they?

However Epherem much as we despise these things they come from the lower mind, the egoic mind which is the mortal mind and not the Mind of God, who knows nothing of these things and does indeed overlook them because he doesn't see them in the first place.

Only God can reveal Himself to us. We do as you say make a image of God in our imagination and as we are all different our images will be different too, even if it is in some cases only marginally different. But the image we make of God is not God is a image and no more than that, again our mortal mind has given us this image and it is not a true one. Nothing done by the mortal mind is true, It is limited in it's scope unlike the Mind of God which is limitless.

On reflection you could indeed say Iam who Iam that to would be correct. But equally correct is the term Iam That I am. As I said, it matter not to God the names we use at all.

Regarding visions again. They can come when we clear the clutter from our minds and go inwards to where God resides within us. We can look outward and see His handiwork in Nature and the wonderfull array of forms he has created and given life too. Animals , birds, fish in the sea, mountains, valleys, rivers and fields, all these things are created by Him who we call God, which is probably not the correct name either, however it is the one we use.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Ephrem I wanted to add a bit to the above post. It is concerning the tree of life. Maybe I have not understood you correctly but the tree of life is a path which we must live by and not the tree of good and evil which is the tree of opposites and illusion. This is the choice we have to make, we either trod one or the other path. The Tree of Life is God's Life path and this is the one we use or should use. It provides all our needs in every way, it is harmonius in every way and it is loving kindness in every way. The other path is the exact opposite you could say. And God as no opposites, therefore the tree of good and evil must be the wrong path.

Regards
Gatsby

[EphremHagos]

Ephrem I wanted to add a bit to the above post. It is concerning the tree of life. Maybe I have not understood you correctly but the tree of life is a path which we must live by and not the tree of good and evil which is the tree of opposites and illusion. This is the choice we have to make, we either trod one or the other path. The Tree of Life is God's Life path and this is the one we use or should use. It provides all our needs in every way, it is harmonius in every way and it is loving kindness in every way. The other path is the exact opposite you could say. And God as no opposites, therefore the tree of good and evil must be the wrong path.

Regards
Gatsby

For the time being, PLEASE LET US FOCUS single-mindedly on Christ who is "the key that opens all the hidden treasures of God's wisdom and knowledge" (Col. 2: 2-3 and Rev. 5 echoing Matt. 13: 10-17) Let us, therefore, search together for the key if you are agree.

Firsthand and personal knowledge of Christ is based exclusively on "seeing heaven open and God's angels going up and coming down on the Son of Man", in other words, vision of the identity and authority of Jesus Christ based on his death on the cross (John 1: 47-51; 3: 1-21; 7: 37-39; 8: 21-28; 10: 17-18, 37-38; 14: 15-21; ... 19: 30-37) conforming the cross of Christ as the "tree of life" --the tree that stood in the middle of the garden of Eden (Gen 2:9); the tree, in the "New Jerusalem" from which the "water of life" flowed bearing fruit twelve times a year with leaves for the healing of the nations (Rev. 22).

Therefore, without sharing the identical experience of the vision of Christ in his Lordship over death and life, we live, believe and debate all in vain! If you or others know of any alternative means for vision apart from the cross of Christ, I sure would like to know!

For the Cause of Christ,
Ephrem

[Gatsby]

For the time being, PLEASE LET US FOCUS single-mindedly on Christ who is "the key that opens all the hidden treasures of God's wisdom and knowledge" (Col. 2: 2-3 and Rev. 5 echoing Matt. 13: 10-17) Let us, therefore, search together for the key if you are agree.

Firsthand and personal knowledge of Christ is based exclusively on "seeing heaven open and God's angels going up and coming down on the Son of Man", in other words, vision of the identity and authority of Jesus Christ based on his death on the cross (John 1: 47-51; 3: 1-21; 7: 37-39; 8: 21-28; 10: 17-18, 37-38; 14: 15-21; ... 19: 30-37) conforming the cross of Christ as the "tree of life" --the tree that stood in the middle of the garden of Eden (Gen 2:9); the tree, in the "New Jerusalem" from which the "water of life" flowed bearing fruit twelve times a year with leaves for the healing of the nations (Rev. 22).

Therefore, without sharing the identical experience of the vision of Christ in his Lordship over death and life, we live, believe and debate all in vain! If you or others know of any alternative means for vision apart from the cross of Christ, I sure would like to know!

For the Cause of Christ,
Ephrem

Hi Ephrem you ask if I know a alternative means of visions apart from the cross of Christ saying you would sure like to know. Well that is excactly what Iam trying to tell you only I dont use texts from the Bible as you do. One reason, I forget chapter and text and remember the 'gist' of the text you could say. Reason being it was a long time ago that I did study the Bible, however that stood me in good stead to progress along the spiritual path. All is a stepping stone to that end, including orthodox religion so I dont knock orthodoxy for the sake of it. We are all learning and doing it in the ways that are right for us at this particular time.:smile: So fine, Iam happy to focus on that although my sources may be different from yours and also I talk from personal experience which cannot ever be ruled out.

You say:The Christ is the key that opens all the hidden treasures of God's wisdom and knowledge.

Yes, this is true!. But do we know the way to Christ? How do we make contact with the Christ?
Does the Bible tell you how? I dont remember it did, but I could have missed it. Anyway, the way to Christ is to look within yourself, for that is where the Christ is to be found. I dont beleive Jesus did anything that we cannot do also as he clearly states in the Bible. He found Christ and so can we. The hidden treasures are indeed waiting for us there and once found we will see how illusionary this world truly is.

Now, visions of the authority of Jesus Christ by way of angels going up and down is a metaphor for energy vibrating up and down. The higher vibrations resonate with the Christ and God, the lower vibrations are of the earth and mankind. These are the angels you are talking about.

Jesus's death on the cross depicted in spiritual terms his victory over our enemy which we call death. The mortal part of Jesus died on the cross. This is the egoic mind which I mentioned before. He triumphed over the mortal egoic mind and wass taken up in the Divine Mind as Son of God, hence he was what we call Christed. He was not the first to be Christed and he will not be the last but he was born a man of mankind and was raised (vibrations) above the earthly ones and 'crowned' with the Christ vibration which is the same as God's. We too can do this regardless of what the Bible says.

Jesus was the way and what he said was Truth, he said 'Iam the Way, Iam the Truth and it is true still to this day.

We can only have these kinds of revealing visions when we empty our minds, our mortal minds of all the daily clutter. Jesus did this, although it is not mentioned I dont think in the Bible. If it is, then why are people not doing this? Maybe they truly dont want to know or are just not interested, however, they should be as what happens in the afterlife depends on what you do in this life.

There is only one way to Christ and that is via deep meditation. This Jesus did, again, he should us the way again, and this we too must do if we want to connect inwardly with God/Christ. All the mind must be cleared of worldly clutter and then we will be clear vessels for Christ to work with.

I will leave it there and await your reply.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Hi Ephrem, again, a bit more to say because I looked at one of the extracts you mention in the Bible. The seven seals.

The seven seals represent the 7 chakara's in the inner bodies of mankind. They are energy systems which vibrate to a certain colour. I wont go through them here but you can check it out on the web, there is much written about the energy centres. You see these things were known at the time of Jesus on the earth. They have been discarded over the years by mainstream religions and now the people on earth are awakening, their knowlege is vital in their search to know God.

Regards
Gatsby

[EphremHagos]

Hi Ephrem, again, a bit more to say because I looked at one of the extracts you mention in the Bible. The seven seals.

The seven seals represent the 7 chakara's in the inner bodies of mankind. They are energy systems which vibrate to a certain colour. I wont go through them here but you can check it out on the web, there is much written about the energy centres. You see these things were known at the time of Jesus on the earth. They have been discarded over the years by mainstream religions and now the people on earth are awakening, their knowlege is vital in their search to know God.

Regards
Gatsby

What is the latest report about the people's search to know God apart from founding more religions which they perpetuate to serve their own vested interests?

Regards,
Ephrem

[Gatsby]

What is the latest report about the people's search to know God apart from founding more religions which they perpetuate to serve their own vested interests?

Regards,
Ephrem

Hi Ephrem, the information I give you is spiritual knowledge not religous knowledge.

The Bible itself is a spiritual book and must be read in that light, not a book that has a literal interpetation. Jesus's teachings were and remain spiritual teaching for mankind in the Piscean age, we now enter into the Aquarian age and more knowledge is forthcoming.

True, many could if they wished build a new religion of this kind of knowledge but that is not it's purpose. It's purpose is to aid us in finding God within ourselves as Jesus did when he was present on the earth.

Most of the knowledge Ephrem is what is termed Ancient Wisdom and has been available to those who have been seeking Truth over aeons of time, this is not new knowledge at all really it is that now people are ready to listen and more importantly to understand this knowledge than at any time in the past.

Regards
Gatsby

[EphremHagos]

Hi Ephrem, the information I give you is spiritual knowledge not religous knowledge.

The Bible itself is a spiritual book and must be read in that light, not a book that has a literal interpetation. Jesus's teachings were and remain spiritual teaching for mankind in the Piscean age, we now enter into the Aquarian age and more knowledge is forthcoming.

True, many could if they wished build a new religion of this kind of knowledge but that is not it's purpose. It's purpose is to aid us in finding God within ourselves as Jesus did when he was present on the earth.

Most of the knowledge Ephrem is what is termed Ancient Wisdom and has been available to those who have been seeking Truth over aeons of time, this is not new knowledge at all really it is that now people are ready to listen and more importantly to understand this knowledge than at any time in the past.

Regards
Gatsby

Hi again, Gatsby!

I do not trust the "chakara's" as much as you do. To me, they fit easily into the frame of inequality between the truth and its counterpoint.

Otherwise, the seven "seals" in the book of Revelation are equivalent to "a sealed scroll" in Isaiah 29: 9-14 or the hidden "meaning of every prophetic vision" which neither the highly learned nor the illiterate can read and understand.

To me, there is no grey area whatsoever in the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). More importantly, the perfect and diacritical death of Jesus Christ on the cross, which is open for our firsthand, personal and life-transforming experience, is the only way of being born of the Spirit (John 3: 1-21; 6: 62-63; 19: 30-37).

The fateful choice between the "tree of life" and the "tree of mixed knowledge" (Gen. 2: 8-17; Rev. 22) is still with us. God help us!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gatsby]

Hi again, Gatsby!

I do not trust the "chakara's" as much as you do. To me, they fit easily into the frame of inequality between the truth and its counterpoint.

Otherwise, the seven "seals" in the book of Revelation are equivalent to "a sealed scroll" in Isaiah 29: 9-14 or the hidden "meaning of every prophetic vision" which neither the highly learned nor the illiterate can read and understand.

To me, there is no grey area whatsoever in the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). More importantly, the perfect and diacritical death of Jesus Christ on the cross, which is open for our firsthand, personal and life-transforming experience, is the only way of being born of the Spirit (John 3: 1-21; 6: 62-63; 19: 30-37).

The fateful choice between the "tree of life" and the "tree of mixed knowledge" (Gen. 2: 8-17; Rev. 22) is still with us. God help us!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Ephrem, the chakra sytem of energy is there whether you like it or not or whether you know of it or not. I cant change that for you to fit in with what you beleive.

Flesh is the covering of the spirit when in incarnation on the Earth. At death, in our terms, the material covering falls away. However we have more than one body although orthodoxy no doubt deny this, because as far as Iam aware, they do not teach this fact. Iam not following your reason here when you say they fit into the frame of inequality between truth and counterpoint. In Truth there cannot be any counterpoint or opposite. The Tree of knowledge of good and bad is the tree of opposites and not the tree of life which has no opposite. Maybe you could clarify that point for me so that I can at least understand your meaning.

We all go through a crucifiction Ephrem, much as that fact may cause alarm to many, but we dont all do it the way Jesus did and yet we must come to the same point as He did and then we can also say 'Iam the Way and the Truth'. We too will have conquered death and all that is of the illusionary world of material earth. The ego is the usurper of God's authority and it is the beast that must be slain.

The 2nd death is the falling away of the ego mind and the astral body in the higher realms. This is when spirit rules and death has passed away. This will only happen when we let go of the ego mind and allow the Divine Mind to rule us as Jesus did while upon the Earth. We too do not have to wait to go through incarnation after incarnation for this to happen, like Jesus we can do this while we are upon the earth, this in fact is what we are here to do. To love and serve all without judgement or distinction and to KNOW that we are One with God and All.

Checking on your quote in Isaiah, it talks about the sleep that we sleep thanks to God pulling a veil over us. The hunger and thirst it mentions of the soul is reffereing to the hunger and thirst of the soul for spiritual food and drink. God is the fountain of all knowledge and hence it is talked about in these terms. This too has been misunderstood for yonks of time. Those earnestly searching for God, to know God and Christ within will have the veil removed and then they will know all there is to know through the Christ within, which is only heard in the silence and not when the mind is chattering away being concerned with earthly things.

It is wise to remember the command, 'Be still and Know that I Am God'!

Regards
Gatsby