Split from "Miracles Administered

[Shadow Phoenix]

JW are not saved in the resurrection of the saints as they do not have the Holy Spirit. The same way as most on this web are not saved but maybe they will in the judgement after the 1000 years. They think they have the Holy Spirit but do not.

John 3 v 16 are for those that believe and obey in the Full Gospel message of Christ and not those that give lip service and stop there.

Tell me Fred, are you justified? If so, how? If not, how will you be?

[FredFlanders]

Tell me Fred, are you justified? If so, how? If not, how will you be?

AP,
I am justified by His grace and that is His unmerited mercy and favor. This was given when He filled me with the Holy Spirit and power to do the same works as Christ. This was freely given to me because Christ died in my place for my sins and sent His Spirit so I could abide in Him and if I abide in Him I abide in the Father also. This is the Trinity that none of you understand and the grace and favour He gives us when we receive the Holy Spirit.

As most of you do not have the Holy Spirit you would not understand as you prefer to be led by man than God. If you followed Christ you would obey His commandments you would have sought Him and got filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Shadow Phoenix]

AP,
I am justified by His grace and that is His unmerited mercy and favor.

Then it would seem odd to say most of us here are not since we have the same claim.


This was given when He filled me with the Holy Spirit and power to do the same works as Christ.

hmmm. Last I checked we were to walk as he did. That means moral living.

This was freely given to me because Christ died in my place for my sins and sent His Spirit so I could abide in Him and if I abide in Him I abide in the Father also. This is the Trinity that none of you understand and the grace and favour He gives us when we receive the Holy Spirit.

None of us understand the Trinity?

Oh please explain it by all means!

As most of you do not have the Holy Spirit you would not understand as you prefer to be led by man than God. If you followed Christ you would obey His commandments you would have sought Him and got filled with the Holy Spirit.

We did. It's called "Justification."

[JAYMZ]

Fred,
I think im gonna trust what Peter says over you.
Acts 2:38. I have done this, but you say im not saved and dont have The Holy Spirit. Your wrong, but your welcome to your opinion tough.

[FredFlanders]

Then it would seem odd to say most of us here are not since we have the same claim.




hmmm. Last I checked we were to walk as he did. That means moral living.



None of us understand the Trinity?

Oh please explain it by all means!



We did. It's called "Justification."

Most of you have not received His grace. This was given to us when we receive the Holy Spirit and power to walk with Christ and do as Christ did. The works that Christ did was not only His moral living but healing the sick and setting the captives free. We do this by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, not of ourselves but of the Spirit of Christ.
When you receive the Holy Spirit you will understand what the Trinity is. If you have not seen Christ by the Holy Spirit then it is not possible for me to show you the anything about the Father either.

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
I think im gonna trust what Peter says over you.
Acts 2:38. I have done this, but you say im not saved and dont have The Holy Spirit. Your wrong, but your welcome to your opinion tough.

Jaymz,
Ok that is good, you repented of your sins, then you got baptised in water which you know they are ALL separate events. And so is receiving the Holy Spirit. It does not come automatically but is a separate event such as we read in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19 etc. When you receive the Holy Spirit, power will come upon you to enable you to do the work that Christ did and that is to minister the Gospel, heal the sick and set the captives free.
False prophets will tell you that it is not a separate event and that you automatically receive it because they have been deceived themselves. These are the tricks Satan is up to because he does not want you to receive the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

Ty,

You seem to think that you're better than us because you have more of the Holy Spirit than we do.
(Or, perhaps, you think you have the Holy Spirit and we don't)

Might I suggest that a more important factor would be how much of YOU the HOLY SPIRIT has, as opposed to how much Holy Spirit YOU have? :wink:

CP,

This is Fred and I think you are getting me mixed up with Ty.

It is not about being better that any one else or having more Holy Spirit. Christ did not think that way about us but He wanted us to be His equal, not above Him or not below Him. This is why He gives us His Spirit to be like Him. To minister the Gospel, heal the sick and set the captives free.
But first you need the get the Holy Spirit and not be under the false impression that you already have it.

[Obsidian]

How many miracles have Ty and Fred administered?

[Country Preacher]

But first you need the get the Holy Spirit and not be under the false impression that you already have it.

So, just out of curiosity, how do you know i don't?

[Shadow Phoenix]

Most of you have not received His grace. This was given to us when we receive the Holy Spirit and power to walk with Christ and do as Christ did. The works that Christ did was not only His moral living but healing the sick and setting the captives free. We do this by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, not of ourselves but of the Spirit of Christ.
When you receive the Holy Spirit you will understand what the Trinity is. If you have not seen Christ by the Holy Spirit then it is not possible for me to show you the anything about the Father either.

Just as I figured. Colossians 2 anyone? What was that about being puffed up and going on about what one has seen and heard?

[Country Preacher]

CP,

This is Fred and I think you are getting me mixed up with Ty.

That should scare ya! :smile:

So, seriously, how do you know I don't have the Holy Spirit? What's your authority on that?

[barnasha]

Most of you have not received His grace.

The one who might have received it would be someone who helped bring it to them, not to tell them they dont have it

[JAYMZ]

Jaymz,
Ok that is good, you repented of your sins, then you got baptised in water which you know they are ALL separate events. And so is receiving the Holy Spirit. It does not come automatically but is a separate event such as we read in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19 etc. When you receive the Holy Spirit, power will come upon you to enable you to do the work that Christ did and that is to minister the Gospel, heal the sick and set the captives free.
False prophets will tell you that it is not a separate event and that you automatically receive it because they have been deceived themselves. These are the tricks Satan is up to because he does not want you to receive the Holy Spirit.
So basically your saying every christian needs to leave their churches and flood into the pentecostal churches were this takes place ?
The power of the Holy spirit was given that way because the apostles were the foundation for which the church is laid. There is no need to think the Spirit has to work this way today because the foundations already been laid. We non-pentecostal christians are given the Holy Spirit to empower our lives, to lead us away from sin.

If God wanted his spirit to be given in this way wouldnt he just have an out pouring one sunday morning in the non-charismatic churches ?

[JAYMZ]

Fred,
What is the greatest miracle that you have done ? Have you raised the dead and if not, why not ? Healed an amputee ?
Dont get me wrong, I do believe God can and does heal people according to his plans and purposes but if your taking about the stuff that Benny Hinn does, you can count me out.

[FredFlanders]

How many miracles have Ty and Fred administered?

O,
If I said many then you would accuse me of gloating, if I said none then you would call me a fraud. So O, do you think believers can lay hands on the sick and have them healed? Do you think believers can cast out demons? Do you think miracles can happen to believers? Do you think believers can lay hands on others to receive the Holy Spirit? Do you think the Power of the Holy Spirit gives, enables us to be like Christ? Or is your faith in the Gospel of Christ all in vain?

[FredFlanders]

So, just out of curiosity, how do you know i don't?

CP,
Maybe you have. Tell me your testimony on how you received the Holy Spirit, then I will know? Many have no light and nobody can tell where they are from just like the five foolish virgins. Not to say that you do as I do not know you as yet.

[Country Preacher]

CP,
Maybe you have. Tell me your testimony on how you received the Holy Spirit, then I will know?

That's not my point, Fred. You DON'T know.

[FredFlanders]

Just as I figured. Colossians 2 anyone? What was that about being puffed up and going on about what one has seen and heard?

AP,
Don't be deluded in what you believe. Do we not preach the full Gospel of Christ (whole body) the head of all principality and power. And not just parts of the Gospel (body) you think you believe.

[Shadow Phoenix]

AP,
Don't be deluded in what you believe.

What I do everyday.

Do we not preach the full Gospel of Christ (whole body) the head of all principality and power. And not just parts of the Gospel (body) you think you believe.

Good thing I do. However, this is about you. Not me. You claimed that we don't have understanding. Unfortunately, your terminology is entirely gnostic. Paul warned about those who go into a great deal about what they have seen and heard and get puffed up in their spiritual minds. John has already told me the truth. I have the Holy Spirit and therefore I don't need someone to tell me any secret knowledge.

The gospel is clear. The God-man Christ came, died, and rose again. Forgiveness of sins is in his name alone.

[FredFlanders]

That should scare ya! :smile:

So, seriously, how do you know I don't have the Holy Spirit? What's your authority on that?



At least with Ty I can call my Christian Brother for he has the Holy Spirit and understands many of the Mysteries of Christ. With most of the others I cannot call them a brother or sister but put them in with the Scribes and Pharisies thinking they have wisdom and knowledge but there minds are dull knowing not the Truth because they do not reflect Christ and His Body.

1 Cor 14 v 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[JAYMZ]

Fred,
I hear a lot of theoretical things from you, but what real things have you actually done ? Be very specific, if and when you answer.

[Country Preacher]

At least with Ty I can call my Christian Brother for he has the Holy Spirit and understands many of the Mysteries of Christ.....

Cool.

[FredFlanders]

The one who might have received it would be someone who helped bring it to them, not to tell them they dont have it

True B,
But if they already believe they have it through a deceit of the enemy, then how can they receive it? They must know through the Word of God they do not have it before they can pray to receive it. Jesus tells it strait and so do I.

[FredFlanders]

So basically your saying every christian needs to leave their churches and flood into the pentecostal churches were this takes place ?
The power of the Holy spirit was given that way because the apostles were the foundation for which the church is laid. There is no need to think the Spirit has to work this way today because the foundations already been laid. We non-pentecostal christians are given the Holy Spirit to empower our lives, to lead us away from sin.

If God wanted his spirit to be given in this way wouldnt he just have an out pouring one sunday morning in the non-charismatic churches ?

Why would God want to pour His Holy Spirit out on people who want to follow religion that does not conform to His will? Christ is not about giving His Power to the enemy.

God's will is not only that we turn from sin but to do the works of Christ. Without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit it is impossible to do the works of Christ. In 1 Cor Chapters 12-14 you will see how the Church operates manifesting the whole Body of Christ and not bits and pieces as some religions think they do. They think they have knowledge and wisdom of God but have no idea having all their spiritual senses dulled by the enemy.

[Country Preacher]

At least with Ty I can call my Christian Brother for he has the Holy Spirit and understands many of the Mysteries of Christ. With most of the others I cannot call them a brother or sister but put them in with the Scribes and Pharisies thinking they have wisdom and knowledge but there minds are dull knowing not the Truth because they do not reflect Christ and His Body.

Fred,

Honestly... have you ever considered the possibility that JUST MAYBE it might be you who is not reflecting Christ and His Body? Is it really necessary to designate other people Scribes and Pharisees? Don't you think there's just a tinge of judgmental attitude in your approach? Is this the Holy Spirit guiding you to call names and accuse? Is it possible you're responding in the flesh rather than the Spirit?

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
What is the greatest miracle that you have done ? Have you raised the dead and if not, why not ? Healed an amputee ?
Dont get me wrong, I do believe God can and does heal people according to his plans and purposes but if your taking about the stuff that Benny Hinn does, you can count me out.

J,
It is not what I have done or what Benny Hinn may have done. The point is we can all do it in the name of Jesus when the Holy Spirit comes within you. It is the love of Jesus that we lay hands on the sick to make them well. As Christ first loved us and gave His Spirit to us, we are moved to do the same as Christ as His Spirit dwells within us.

[FredFlanders]

That's not my point, Fred. You DON'T know.
CP, as you have no witness of the Power of the Holy Spirit within you or you not willing to give witness then that would confirm to me that you do not have it.

[Country Preacher]

CP, as you have no witness of the Power of the Holy Spirit within you or you not willing to give witness then that would confirm to me that you do not have it.

Fred,
I hate to bust your bubble, but you are NOT the Holy Spirit Police.
I have neither reason nor desire to share with my "witness" of my "Holy Spirit" experience with you.
I never said I have "no witness", I simply declined to submit to your silly demands.
But thank you so very kindly for asking.
:smile:

[Sparko]

True B,
But if they already believe they have it through a deceit of the enemy, then how can they receive it? They must know through the Word of God they do not have it before they can pray to receive it. Jesus tells it strait and so do I.

you realize that barnasha is a muslim wannabee, right?

[JAYMZ]

J,
It is not what I have done or what Benny Hinn may have done. The point is we can all do it in the name of Jesus when the Holy Spirit comes within you. It is the love of Jesus that we lay hands on the sick to make them well. As Christ first loved us and gave His Spirit to us, we are moved to do the same as Christ as His Spirit dwells within us.
Right, but im asking what specific healings have you done ? I mean REAL healings.
For example; " one time this man with a severed hand came to me and then I prayed over him, then he had a new hand. "
Stuff like that.

Keep in mind any good witch doctor can heal psycho-sematic illness too.

[JAYMZ]

you realize that barnasha is a muslim wannabee, right?
Ouch !

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
I hate to bust your bubble, but you are NOT the Holy Spirit Police.
I have neither reason nor desire to share with my "witness" of my "Holy Spirit" experience with you.
I never said I have "no witness", I simply declined to submit to your silly demands.
But thank you so very kindly for asking.
:smile:

Luke 11 v 33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

[JAYMZ]

O,
If I said many then you would accuse me of gloating, if I said none then you would call me a fraud. So O, do you think believers can lay hands on the sick and have them healed? Do you think believers can cast out demons? Do you think miracles can happen to believers? Do you think believers can lay hands on others to receive the Holy Spirit? Do you think the Power of the Holy Spirit gives, enables us to be like Christ? Or is your faith in the Gospel of Christ all in vain?

Its not gloating if you give all glory to God.
So try again. That was a dodge.

[Country Preacher]

Luke 11 v 33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

(1 Chr 26:18 KJV) At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Luke 11 v 33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job.

[Country Preacher]

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job.

That's one of my pet peeves when somebody responds by "throwing a Bible verse" at you... so, I just throw one back.
Parbar is one of my favorites :smile:

[FredFlanders]

Fred,

Honestly... have you ever considered the possibility that JUST MAYBE it might be you who is not reflecting Christ and His Body? Is it really necessary to designate other people Scribes and Pharisees? Don't you think there's just a tinge of judgmental attitude in your approach? Is this the Holy Spirit guiding you to call names and accuse? Is it possible you're responding in the flesh rather than the Spirit?

CP,
It is easy to discern where spirits come from and what they are. I have no problem revealing the false prophets, the antichrists, the goats from the sheep, the hay from the wheat. And not to condemn anyone as they will condemn themselves but Christ is still reaching out to all of them with the keys to heaven if they look at His Word and follow Christ and not the deceiver..

[Country Preacher]

CP,
It is easy to discern where spirits come from and what they are. I have no problem revealing the false prophets, the antichrists, the goats from the sheep, the hay from the wheat. And not to condemn anyone as they will condemn themselves but Christ is still reaching out to all of them with the keys to heaven if they look at His Word and follow Christ and not the deceiver..

No problem, Fred.. you ARE entertaining.

[FredFlanders]

you realize that barnasha is a muslim wannabee, right?

No Sparko I did not know that as I have heard little from barnasha but happy to talk to Muslims any time. Christ still loves Muslims and is reaching out to them also, right?

[FredFlanders]

No problem, Fred.. you ARE entertaining.

Well thanks for the compliment. At least if you read what I have said some thing may get through. I only sow but God gives the increase not me.

[Country Preacher]

Well thanks for the compliment. At least if you read what I have said some thing may get through. I only sow but God gives the increase not me.

Well, keep praying for me Fred, perhaps some day I will be as Spiritual as you! :smile:

[Shadow Phoenix]

Well, keep praying for me Fred, perhaps some day I will be as Spiritual as you! :smile:

There was a group like that a long time ago CP. They were called Gnostics.

[Country Preacher]

There was a group like that a long time ago CP. They were called Gnostics.

I am amazed and astounded, AP! :smile:

[FredFlanders]

Its not gloating if you give all glory to God.
So try again. That was a dodge.

Only by the Spirit of Christ. As He gets All the glory, I am able to access all the gifts and fruits (by His Grace) as we read in 1 Cor 12-14 for His Glory and so can anyone else who has the True Holy Spirit. As evidence of this I have been involved in ministering this message to many different denominations in Vanuatu and Burma but only if I get authority from the leader of the congregation. When this full Gospel message is ministered the Holy Spirit has always turned up, healed the sick (tuberculosis, paralysis, malaria, severe burns, mental health problems and more) , set the captives free (demonic spirits) and empowered them with the Holy Spirit. Before attending the meeting the congregation are told by their Pastor what will take place at their meeting before I come. As the meeting is for believers and not those who reject Christ. The Pastors who understand this message continue on with this doctrine of Christ energizing and building the Church.
I say this not to glorify myself as we all have varied callings in Christ whether we are at work, at home or where ever. And the message is we can ALL be empowered with the Holy Spirit to do the Work of Christ.

[FredFlanders]

Well, keep praying for me Fred, perhaps some day I will be as Spiritual as you! :smile:

It is not about being more spiritual than any one else but about first being filled with the Holy Spirit rather than Hot Air.

[Shadow Phoenix]

It is not about being more spiritual than any one else but about first being filled with the Holy Spirit rather than Hot Air.

Oh the irony....

[Country Preacher]

Oh the irony....

:popcorn:

[Shadow Phoenix]

:popcorn:

You need to quit following me CP. You'll gain too much weight with all the popcorn.

[Country Preacher]

You need to quit following me CP. You'll gain too much weight with all the popcorn.

yeah, i use real butter, too! good point, AP

But aren't i doing a lot better job of keeping my mouth shut??? (except of course, to introduce popcorn therein)

[Shadow Phoenix]

yeah, i use real butter, too! good point, AP

But aren't i doing a lot better job of keeping my mouth shut??? (except of course, to introduce popcorn therein)

Don't be too hard on yourself. I like it when you speak.

[Sparko]

For someone who has ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Flanders seems to be lacking in the FRUIT of the Holy Spirit. Particularly in love.

He also seems to have a humility problem.

[JAYMZ]

Only by the Spirit of Christ. As He gets All the glory, I am able to access all the gifts and fruits (by His Grace) as we read in 1 Cor 12-14 for His Glory and so can anyone else who has the True Holy Spirit. As evidence of this I have been involved in ministering this message to many different denominations in Vanuatu and Burma but only if I get authority from the leader of the congregation. When this full Gospel message is ministered the Holy Spirit has always turned up, healed the sick (tuberculosis, paralysis, malaria, severe burns, mental health problems and more) , set the captives free (demonic spirits) and empowered them with the Holy Spirit. Before attending the meeting the congregation are told by their Pastor what will take place at their meeting before I come. As the meeting is for believers and not those who reject Christ. The Pastors who understand this message continue on with this doctrine of Christ energizing and building the Church.
I say this not to glorify myself as we all have varied callings in Christ whether we are at work, at home or where ever. And the message is we can ALL be empowered with the Holy Spirit to do the Work of Christ.
Fred,
I can totally see God doing very supernatural things in more pagan areas to help open their hearts to the gospel. Those areas just may need that extra light from God.
How come you really dont see the Holy Spirit working this way in America ? ( that I can see )

( and please dont cite the " prophets " and " healers " that you see on TBN and loose more credibility here )

[FredFlanders]

For someone who has ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Flanders seems to be lacking in the FRUIT of the Holy Spirit. Particularly in love.

He also seems to have a humility problem.

Sparko,
Do you think Love is agreeing with what others say because it sounds good to your carnal fallen nature? Or do you think Love will show you into the Kingdom of God by the correct path?

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
I can totally see God doing very supernatural things in more pagan areas to help open their hearts to the gospel. Those areas just may need that extra light from God.
How come you really dont see the Holy Spirit working this way in America ? ( that I can see )

( and please dont cite the " prophets " and " healers " that you see on TBN and loose more credibility here )

J,
The Holy Spirit is working in a very powerful way in America but only according to the Working of the Holy Spirit. Signs and Wonders of the Holy Spirit follow the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. Christ is not caught up in dull, boring religion that reflects some sort of Social Club or dim witted, counterfeit faith as many christian religions do.

These third world countries are not pagan as you think. Many of them have been believers for most of their lives (missionary times) and know the Bible better than I do. As they do know the Bible, they are cherry ripe to be filled with the Holy Spirit with power and all authority. It is only that they have been led astray by the false religious teachings of their denominations that they had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit. When they do receive the Holy Spirit then the works of spiritual darkness working in High Places is reveiled to them.

[JAYMZ]

J,
The Holy Spirit is working in a very powerful way in America but only according to the Working of the Holy Spirit. Signs and Wonders of the Holy Spirit follow the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. Christ is not caught up in dull, boring religion that reflects some sort of Social Club or dim witted, counterfeit faith as many christian religions do.

Well, what specific signs and wonders are going on in america ? How many people get healed on typical sunday morning in your church ?


I guess you cant call being " slain in the spirit " dull or boring. Not biblical, but certainly not dull.:lol:

[FredFlanders]

Well, what specific signs and wonders are going on in america ? How many people get healed on typical sunday morning in your church ?


I guess you cant call being " slain in the spirit " dull or boring. Not biblical, but certainly not dull.:lol:

J,
The signs and wonders are all in the Body of Christ. 1 Cor 12-14 and Mark 16 v 16-18 will show you the signs and wonders.

I am not ALL about healing ministry but it always seems to be the topic religious people want to talk about because they do not understand how it works through believers. But nor does their dull minds understand how wisdom, prophesy, speaking in tongues and love works either as they interpret all these through there carnal thinking and not through the Holy Spirit as they have not yet received it.

More important than healing is receiving the Holy Spirit and experiencing the Love of God.

"Slain in the Spirit" is something I have come to know in the last 10 years. Before it was something I was not accustom to and I did talk against it. One Sunday we were listening to a young American Pastor and at the end of the meeting, he asked if anyone had a need to come forward for prayer. My daughter who was 9 years old at the time had a sore throat, so of her own accord went forth for prayer. When the Pastor lay hands on her she fell backward, lay there for about 10 minutes, then came back to her seat. (My daughter had never seen this “slaying in the spirit” before, nor had she heard of it.) I asked her what had happened. She said that she felt God and this invisible power push her over and that her throat was completely healed. This has happened in many meeting I have attended since and the report has always been good such as they were healed or had some encounter with God. I have seen the enthusiasm and passion in the people that had this experience after this event. Although it does not happen to me I cannot now speak against it or any other unusual event that may happen when God turns up. Remember on the Day of Pentecost, many thought the people were drunk when they encounter the Holy Spirit for the first time.

Who am I to put God in a box and tell Him how he should behave.

[Country Preacher]

J,
I am not ALL about healing ministry but it always seems to be the topic religious people want to talk about because they do not understand how it works through believers. But nor does their dull minds understand how wisdom, prophesy, speaking in tongues and love works either as they interpret all these through there carnal thinking and not through the Holy Spirit as they have not yet received it.

Why do you enjoy so much talking down to people who, evidently, are not as enlightened as you, Fred? Personally, I think you're full of Fred Flanders. Sorry, but that's what I see.

More important than healing is receiving the Holy Spirit and experiencing the Love of God.So show some love to people who are not as "spiritual" as you, Fred.

Who am I to put God in a box and tell Him how he should behave.Who are you to decide who has the Holy Spirit and who does not?

EDIT: An old AOG Pastor friend of mine (who now lives in Heaven) told me on more than a few occasions... "when a man promotes the Holy Spirit more than he promotes Jesus, the problem is with the man"

[FredFlanders]

Why do you enjoy so much talking down to people who, evidently, are not as enlightened as you, Fred? Personally, I think you're full of Fred Flanders. Sorry, but that's what I see.

So show some love to people who are not as "spiritual" as you, Fred.
Who are you to decide who has the Holy Spirit and who does not?
EDIT: An old AOG Pastor friend of mine (who now lives in Heaven) told me on more than a few occasions... "when a man promotes the Holy Spirit more than he promotes Jesus, the problem is with the man"It is not about puting anyone down. I could get along with you all just fine. It is the words of false teaching that I rebuke. You know not what spirit you speak. If the words you speak cause death to yourself or others I will rebuke them. Fear not what will kill your body but rather fear what will kill your soul. The Holy Spirit is Chris in us. That is why I will talk about the Holy Spirit. However you only reconize Christ the man and not with in us. If you knew Him within us then you would reconize the works of Christ. Read Acts 8,10 &19 and you will see that the disciples could reconise those believers that did not have the Holy Spirit.

[Country Preacher]

It is not about puting anyone down. I could get along with you all just fine. It is the words of false teaching that I rebuke. You know not what spirit you speak. If the words you speak cause death to yourself or others I will rebuke them. Fear not what will kill your body but rather fear what will kill your soul. The Holy Spirit is Chris in us. That is why I will talk about the Holy Spirit. However you only reconize Christ the man and not with in us. If you knew Him within us then you would reconize the works of Christ. Read Acts 8,10 &19 and you will see that the disciples could reconise those believers that did not have the Holy Spirit.

No, it's that you're full of Fred Flanders.
You keep calling everybody else dimwits and refer to us "less spiritual" folks as "dull".
You, Fred, are full of pride.

OH.. buy a couple of "g"s for "reconize". :smile:

[FredFlanders]

No, it's that you're full of Fred Flanders.
You keep calling everybody else dimwits and refer to us "less spiritual" folks as "dull".
You, Fred, are full of pride.

OH.. buy a couple of "g"s for "reconize". :smile:

CP,
You are all good, intelligent people in a wordily sense who I would get along with anywhere at anytime. It is satan that makes us spiritually dull and that is what Jesus attacks. It is not you personally but the religious spirits. I think the best of you all, the same as Christ. I was ignorant, full of pride, argumentive just the same as you when the Gospel was ministered to me. But because of those that persisted with me it finally got through to me.
I thank God we are on a Web that we can speak directly to one another about the Kingdom of God. On most other Webs we are not given that freedom.
God gives Grace (favor and Spiritual blessings/gifts) to the Humble. This is how I obtain the gifts through humility to Him and not to man.
We take the Kingdom of God through force, which is the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. Jesus is not fighting us but demonic spirits which can effect us all. He does not do this by being nice if we have these spirits that led us astray. We show the Love to our children when they are being led astray. God does it to us as well.

[Country Preacher]

Say what you will, Fred, I'm not seeing the humility.
I see lots of spiritual pride, but humility? not so much.

[FredFlanders]

Say what you will, Fred, I'm not seeing the humility.
I see lots of spiritual pride, but humility? not so much.

CP,
As I have said before we are to be Humble (teachable) before the Lord and not man. We are also to be Meek (conform) to the Word not man.
Jesus was not soft with the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was not soft toward His disciples when they misunderstood. Paul was not soft with the Church when they got it wrong. The Holy Spirit is not a people pleaser but is only motivated by the will and purpose of God.

1 Cor 14 v 20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

[Country Preacher]

CP,
As I have said before we are to be Humble (teachable) before the Lord and not man.

I don't want to be rude, Fred, but honestly - I don't see humility OR a teachable spirit in you.
ZERO.... and you can rationalize and justify calling people "dull" and "dimwits", but that doesn't enhance your "humility" factor.

You tend to think you have it all figured out, and you will teach everybody else.

I'm not buying it. Sorry. :shrug: I'm just sayin'

[eye of sauron]

In my experience (... not the dreaded "E" word! :eek:), every time I think I "have it all figured out", God lays the smack down on me, and I get a bit o' learning - the HARD way..... that way, I can (hopefully) retain that teachable spirit and grow in Christ. (of course, testing all things against His Word to ensure I am not led astray).

[Country Preacher]

In my experience (... not the dreaded "E" word! :eek:), every time I think I "have it all figured out", God lays the smack down on me, and I get a bit o' learning - the HARD way..... that way, I can (hopefully) retain that teachable spirit and grow in Christ. (of course, testing all things against His Word to ensure I am not led astray).

EGGzackly! I have written several posts and started several threads about how "smart I was" in a certain situation, only to have the "smack down" from above! My best lessons were learned, not in seminary, but in "the field", serving the Lord, and often when i got too big for my britches, God would use a small child, or a senior adult or "whoever" or "whatever" to "learn me a new one"!

When we get to the point where we think we know it all - we're in trouble! Good words, EOS

[FredFlanders]

I don't want to be rude, Fred, but honestly - I don't see humility OR a teachable spirit in you.
ZERO.... and you can rationalize and justify calling people "dull" and "dimwits", but that doesn't enhance your "humility" factor.
You tend to think you have it all figured out, and you will teach everybody else.
I'm not buying it. Sorry. :shrug: I'm just sayin'CP, in my own intelligence I am as dull if not duller than you all and also the biggest dim wit. However in Christ I glorify but only in by what I have been taught and experienced by the Holy Spirit. I will only tell you what the Holy Spirit teaches me. It is not my will but Christs.

[FredFlanders]

I don't want to be rude, Fred, but honestly - I don't see humility OR a teachable spirit in you.
ZERO.... and you can rationalize and justify calling people "dull" and "dimwits", but that doesn't enhance your "humility" factor.

You tend to think you have it all figured out, and you will teach everybody else.

I'm not buying it. Sorry. :shrug: I'm just sayin'CP, I do not teach anyone. I sow and water by the Word of God by what the Holy Spirit teaches me. It is God that gives the increase.

[Country Preacher]

CP, I do not teach anyone. I sow and water by the Word of God by what the Holy Spirit teaches me. It is God that gives the increase.

It might be more effective, Fred, if you weren't so condescending. Just sayin'

[FredFlanders]

It might be more effective, Fred, if you weren't so condescending. Just sayin' CP, I take on board what you say. The topic is serious and not to be taken lightly. I just ask that you search the scriptures to what has been said. There are many who want to believe and have a close relationship with their Lord but incorrect doctrine robs them of this and their salvation. This incorrect doctrine is from Satan himself. He is the master of disception and does his deceit without the victim even knowing. Believers must be activately reading and conforming to the Gospel of Christ and not believe what they have been taught by man without checking what the scriptures say and proving them.

[Country Preacher]

CP, I take on board what you say. The topic is serious and not to be taken lightly. I just ask that you search the scriptures to what has been said. There are many who want to believe and have a close relationship with their Lord but incorrect doctrine robs them of this and their salvation. This incorrect doctrine is from Satan himself. He is the master of disception and does his deceit without the victim even knowing. Believers must be activately reading and conforming to the Gospel of Christ and not believe what they have been taught by man without checking what the scriptures say and proving them.

Fred,
I have a great relationship with Christ - been walkin with him for over 35 years, assisted by the Spirit. I have spoken in tongues, seen miracles... been there done that. I do NOT seem to need all the "flash" and "show biz". The Holy Spirit IS serious business, and not to be turned into a side show.
I'm a whole lot more interested in winning souls than "signs and wonders". God seems to be working quite well in my life without the glitz.
God knows what He's doing, Fred.

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
I have a great relationship with Christ - beenwalkin with him for over 35 years, assisted by the Spirit. I have spoken in tongues, seen miracles... been there done that. I do NOT seem to need all the "flash" and "show biz". The Holy Spirit IS serious business, and not to be turned into a side show.
I'm a whole lot more interested in winning souls than "signs and wonders". God seems to be working quite well in my life without the glitz.
God knows what He's doing, Fred.CP, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (everyone of them) Glorify Christ' Body. Nothing to do with show biz. This is how Christ's Body operates. What do you mean have spoken in tongues? Do you still speak in tongues?

[Country Preacher]

CP, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (everyone of them) Glorify Christ' Body. Nothing to do with show biz. This is how Christ's Body operates. What do you mean have spoken in tongues? Do you still speak in tongues?

Tell me that Benny Hinn is not all about show biz.
I CAN speak in tongues, but I see no reason to.

Yes, the gifts are given to members to edify the body... not to increase the spiritual stature of any individual.

[FredFlanders]

Tell me that Benny Hinn is not all about show biz.
I CAN speak in tongues, but I see no reason to.

Yes, the gifts are given to members to edify the body... not to increase the spiritual stature of any individual.

CP,
I belonged to a church years ago that said the same about Benny Hinn but in their church very few were healed or saved. When I say saved I mean the full Gospel of Christ. Baptised in water, filled with the Holy Spirit with signs following and then walking on with Christ from Faith to Faith.
I see no fault in Benny Hinn. He manifests all the gifts of the Spirit, Prophesy, Knowledge, Wisdom, Teaching, Healing and Deliverance and does it all in the name of Christ. Just as the Scribes and Pharisees criticized Christ when He manifested all the gifts they do the same to Benny Hinn.

My family attended one of his meetings years ago when he came to our country and hundreds were healed and empowered with the Holy Spirit.

We all have different journeys once empowered with the Holy Spirit. Jesus ministered and healed thousands as does Benny Hinn to Glorify Christ and not himself. I have a different journey and so do Pastors. One sows, another waters and God gives the increase also but my light for Christ are all the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking in tongues was given to us to edify ourselves into the nature of Christ. That is the reflection of all the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Paul said that speaking in an unknown tongue edified himself in Christ. We are told to build ourselves up by praying in the Holy Spirit. We are told that speaking in tongues makes intersession for us.

God is a Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

If we do not pray in tongues building ourselves into the nature of Christ then we are relying on our carnal thinking to justify ourselves which is against Christ.

[Country Preacher]

I see no fault in Benny Hinn.

Thanks, Fred.
That's all I needed to know. :wink:

[FredFlanders]

Thanks, Fred.
That's all I needed to know. :wink:

CPharisee, as the Spirit has said, you condemn yourself by putting yourself in with false prophets, tares, goats and the antichrist, all of whom speak against those who manifest the Body of Christ with signs of the Holy Spirit.

[Country Preacher]

CPharisee, as the Spirit has said, you condemn yourself by put yourself in with false prophets, tares, goats and the antichrist.

Yeah, Fred.
Thanks :wink:

... I condemn myself by put myself... :huh:

[FredFlanders]

I CAN speak in tongues, but I see no reason to.



Matt 25 v

14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to CP one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

24Then CP which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto CP, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from CP, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Country Preacher]

Matt 25 v .

Brilliant, Fred... absolutely brilliant.
now, please, leave me alone. :wink:

(you DO realize, Fred, that CP is just my made up name, right, buddy?)

[Sparko]

Matt 25 v

14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to CP one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

24Then CP which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto CP, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from CP, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

you realize a "talent" was a unit of money, not an actual talent, right?

[Obsidian]

If I said many then you would accuse me of gloating, if I said none then you would call me a fraud.

Well who cares what I think, Fred? I want to know how many miracles. I have a somewhat open mind when it comes to strange phenomena. Big fan of the X-Files even! Ty gave me a pretty good list of his miracles -- although mostly they were answers to prayer or exorcisms, which all denominations typically acknowledge as legitimate.

So O, do you think believers can lay hands on the sick and have them healed?

No

Do you think believers can cast out demons?

Yes, although I'm not certain whether that applies to all believers or only the ones who are living righteously

Do you think miracles can happen to believers?

Yes, although I tend to be skeptical in specific cases, as people often over-spiritualize events and attribute to the miraculous things which are merely good fortune. God established the natural laws because, in most cases, he likes the way nature operates.

Do you think believers can lay hands on others to receive the Holy Spirit?

No, you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe in Christ. No hands are needed.

Do you think the Power of the Holy Spirit gives, enables us to be like Christ? Or is your faith in the Gospel of Christ all in vain?

It assists us in becoming like Christ and even gives us spiritual gifts, although not prophecy or tongues. It helps us to understand spiritual truths and enables us to live a Christ-like life, but doesn't force us.

[JAYMZ]

CP,
I belonged to a church years ago that said the same about Benny Hinn but in their church very few were healed or saved. When I say saved I mean the full Gospel of Christ. Baptised in water, filled with the Holy Spirit with signs following and then walking on with Christ from Faith to Faith.
I see no fault in Benny Hinn. He manifests all the gifts of the Spirit, Prophesy, Knowledge, Wisdom, Teaching, Healing and Deliverance and does it all in the name of Christ. Just as the Scribes and Pharisees criticized Christ when He manifested all the gifts they do the same to Benny Hinn.

My family attended one of his meetings years ago when he came to our country and hundreds were healed and empowered with the Holy Spirit.

We all have different journeys once empowered with the Holy Spirit. Jesus ministered and healed thousands as does Benny Hinn to Glorify Christ and not himself. I have a different journey and so do Pastors. One sows, another waters and God gives the increase also but my light for Christ are all the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking in tongues was given to us to edify ourselves into the nature of Christ. That is the reflection of all the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Paul said that speaking in an unknown tongue edified himself in Christ. We are told to build ourselves up by praying in the Holy Spirit. We are told that speaking in tongues makes intersession for us.

God is a Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

If we do not pray in tongues building ourselves into the nature of Christ then we are relying on our carnal thinking to justify ourselves which is against Christ.
Fred, do you have any discernment ?
Show me one legit healing from Hinn. That, mixed with the bad theology should send red flags up for any discerning christian. At best he is just teaching junk food christianity. At worst he may cause people to lose faith after the psycho-sematic healing wares off.

[FredFlanders]

you realize a "talent" was a unit of money, not an actual talent, right?Sparko, it was a parable using some thing physical (money) to describe some thing spiritual. God doesnot give us money, He gives us gifts and fruit. When we use our gifts by Faith He gives us more. That is why the servant says (Matt 25 v 24) that the Lord reaps where He did not sow as the gift is exercised by Faith. And if you do not use your gifts He will take away what you have and be thrown out of the Kingdom.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, do you have any discernment ?
Show me one legit healing from Hinn. That, mixed with the bad theology should send red flags up for any discerning christian. At best he is just teaching junk food christianity. At worst he may cause people to lose faith after the psycho-sematic healing wares off.J, first of all Benny Hinn does not do the healing but He is a vessel of the Holy Spirit, the same as all Spirit Filled believers and it is Christ that does the healing. Belief in Christ and His Gospel message is all the proof I can give you. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, one of the gifts given is Faith. You need to strive for God to first of all fill you with the Holy Spirit and the you will have proof you want personally from God.
L

[FredFlanders]

Well who cares what I think, Fred? I want to know how many miracles. I have a somewhat open mind when it comes to strange phenomena. Big fan of the X-Files even! Ty gave me a pretty good list of his miracles -- although mostly they were answers to prayer or exorcisms, which all denominations typically acknowledge as legitimate.



No



Yes, although I'm not certain whether that applies to all believers or only the ones who are living righteously



Yes, although I tend to be skeptical in specific cases, as people often over-spiritualize events and attribute to the miraculous things which are merely good fortune. God established the natural laws because, in most cases, he likes the way nature operates.



No, you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe in Christ. No hands are needed.



It assists us in becoming like Christ and even gives us spiritual gifts, although not prophecy or tongues. It helps us to understand spiritual truths and enables us to live a Christ-like life, but doesn't force us.O, as I have said before, recieving the Holy Spirit is something you do after believing. Read Acts 8 & 19 and you will see believers recieved the Holy Spirit when hands were laid on them. The same happens today. Then you will know you have access to all the gifts and fruits of the spirit. I will not have to tell you this as you will know from God yourself. Beats X Files.

[Country Preacher]

O, as I have said before, recieving the Holy Spirit is something you do after believing. Read Acts 8 & 19 and you will see believers recieved the Holy Spirit when hands were laid on them. The same happens today. Then you will know you have access to all the gifts and fruits of the spirit. I will not have to tell you this as you will know from God yourself. Beats X Files.

I love you Fred.
But you are nuttier than Post Toasties.

Just sayin

[Obsidian]

So I guess I'm not gonna hear any actual miracles you've performed. Oh well.

[Cowthulu]

O, as I have said before, recieving the Holy Spirit is something you do after believing. Read Acts 8 & 19 and you will see believers recieved the Holy Spirit when hands were laid on them. The same happens today. Then you will know you have access to all the gifts and fruits of the spirit. I will not have to tell you this as you will know from God yourself. Beats X Files.


44While Peter was still speaking these words, (BO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27304BO))the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45(BP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27305BP))All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been (BQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27305BQ))poured out on the Gentiles also.
46For they were hearing them (BR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27306BR))speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47"(BS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27307BS))Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who (BT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27307BT))have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
48And he (BU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27308BU))ordered them to be baptized (BV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27308BV))in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


No laying hands here, yet they still received the Holy Spirit. They weren't even baptized yet.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I would like to see the verified miracle of Hinn's also.

Furthermore, what about the verified death at the Hinn crusade when a lady was "slain in the Spirit" and fell back on someone else resulting in their death?

[JAYMZ]

J, first of all Benny Hinn does not do the healing but He is a vessel of the Holy Spirit, the same as all Spirit Filled believers and it is Christ that does the healing. Belief in Christ and His Gospel message is all the proof I can give you. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, one of the gifts given is Faith. You need to strive for God to first of all fill you with the Holy Spirit and the you will have proof you want personally from God.
L
I BELIEVE GOD CAN HEAL PEOPLE ACCORDING TO HIS PLANS AND PUPOSES !!!
but.......he must not be using Hinn to accomplish this because of the absence of REAL healings.

[Country Preacher]

I would like to see the verified miracle of Hinn's also.

Furthermore, what about the verified death at the Hinn crusade when a lady was "slain in the Spirit" and fell back on someone else resulting in their death?

Or Benny Hinn's FALSE PROPHESY?
Orlando Christian Center, Dec. 31st, 1989
"The Spirit tells me - Fidel Castro will die - in the 90's. Oooh my! Some will try to kill him and they will not succeed. But there will come a change in his physical health, and he will not stay in power, and Cuba will be visited of God.

[JAYMZ]

Or Benny Hinn's FALSE PROPHESY?
[F Helvetica][F Helvetica]Orlando Christian Center, Dec. 31st, 1989
[/FONT][/FONT] [F Helvetica][F Helvetica]"The Spirit tells me - Fidel Castro will die - in the 90's. Oooh my! Some will try to kill him and they will not succeed. But there will come a change in his physical health, and he will not stay in power, and Cuba will be visited of God. [/FONT][/FONT]
CP, I wonder what Fred has to say about Hinns false prophecies. Isnt it pretty black and white; if you make a prophecy and it doesnt come to pass, then your a false prophet. I've seen television physics with more accuracy.

Just the fact that Fred believes in Hinn says a lot about Freds theology and discernment.

The stuff on TBN is a real sore spot for me. Non-christians see all this " name it and claim it " stuff and it ends up dragging Christs name through the mudd. People see it and say " if thats what christianity is all about, you can count me out."

[Country Preacher]

CP, I wonder what Fred has to say about Hinns false prophecies. Isnt it pretty black and white; if you make a prophecy and it doesnt come to pass, then your a false prophet. I've seen television physics with more accuracy.

Just the fact that Fred believes in Hinn says a lot about Freds theology and discernment.

The stuff on TBN is a real sore spot for me. Non-christians see all this " name it and claim it " stuff and it ends up dragging Christs name through the mudd. People see it and say " if thats what christianity is all about, you can count me out."

Personally, I have given up on Fred. He makes no sense whatsoever. I have greater hope from Ty. :smile:
But, yes, somebody ought to ask Fred about Hinn... It is easy to find false prophesies and heretical statements that Hinn has made.

EDIT: What the hay... FRED... Calling FRED... what say YE about Hinn's heresy and false prophet status?

[Sparko]

Sparko, it was a parable using some thing physical (money) to describe some thing spiritual. God doesnot give us money, He gives us gifts and fruit. When we use our gifts by Faith He gives us more. That is why the servant says (Matt 25 v 24) that the Lord reaps where He did not sow as the gift is exercised by Faith. And if you do not use your gifts He will take away what you have and be thrown out of the Kingdom.


yes it was a parable. But it was about the kingdom of God and the Gospel. If someone keeps the Good News to themselves instead of "investing" it by telling others and growing the kingdom, then he is wasting his salvation. It is not about speaking in tongues or spiritual "talents"

[FredFlanders]

44While Peter was still speaking these words, (BO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27304BO))the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45(BP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27305BP))All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been (BQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27305BQ))poured out on the Gentiles also.
46For they were hearing them (BR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27306BR))speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47"(BS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27307BS))Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who (BT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27307BT))have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
48And he (BU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27308BU))ordered them to be baptized (BV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27308BV))in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


No laying hands here, yet they still received the Holy Spirit. They weren't even baptized yet.

Yes C,
That is correct. Many people can receive the Holy Spirit alone through prayer between themselves and God. And some can be in a group of people such as on the Day of Pentecost or in Cornelius’s home and then baptized in water after receiving. Many however get filled with the Holy Spirit praying with another believer having hands laid upon them such as Acts 8 &19.

But I ask you this question; How did Peter and the Circumcision know that Cornelius and his household had received the Holy Spirit???

[FredFlanders]

So I guess I'm not gonna hear any actual miracles you've performed. Oh well.

O,
Have a read of post 44. As I stated before; after I posted this many acused me of pride or being extra Spiritual but it is not my power but Christ..

God gives grace (favor and spiritual blessings) to the Humble (teachable).

We are Humble (teachable) to God not man.

Most answering these posts are FULL of themselves not God.

O, I can say you show more humility than the others by your questions.

[Country Preacher]

Most answering these posts are FULL of themselves not God..

OOOOOHHHHHhhhhhhhhh the Irony!
Do they not have mirrors where you live, Fred? :smile:

[Shadow Phoenix]

I would suspect the ones who have the best walk with God and are closest to him are often the ones who think just the opposite and the ones that think they're the most spiritual are the ones who are the least spiritual.

[FredFlanders]

I would like to see the verified miracle of Hinn's also.

Furthermore, what about the verified death at the Hinn crusade when a lady was "slain in the Spirit" and fell back on someone else resulting in their death?

PF,
If you know Christ performed miracles, then you will know other believers can in the name of Christ including Benny Hinn.

You can read as much about the Hinn ministries as anyone else on the Web but if you are going to get blessed from it I would not be believing the critics.

Hundreds get healed permanently at Hinn’s meetings, hundreds get healed temporarily and hundreds do not get healed at all. There are Biblical reasons for this. The most important thing is if you do not get healed is to search God’s Word for the answers.

I do not know anything about the death of a woman falling backward after being slain in the Spirit. Whether true or not I do not know. But if it was true then why not ask the Hinn ministries for an explanation. I am sure they would give a reasonable answer.

[Country Preacher]

You can read as much about the Hinn ministries as anyone else on the Web but if you are going to get blessed from it I would not be believing the critics.

Hundreds get healed permanently at Hinn’s meetings....

Well, there ya have it!!! Hundreds get healed, so... who cares if Hinn is a false prophet and a heritic!!!!! Silly silly me!

[Shadow Phoenix]

PF,
If you know Christ performed miracles, then you will know other believers can in the name of Christ including Benny Hinn.

I can get in my car and drive to California also.

Does that mean I do so.

I could have driven to the beach today.

That does not mean I did so.

You can read as much about the Hinn ministries as anyone else on the Web but if you are going to get blessed from it I would not be believing the critics.

Nor would I unless there was some evidence.

Hundreds get healed permanently at Hinn’s meetings, hundreds get healed temporarily and hundreds do not get healed at all. There are Biblical reasons for this. The most important thing is if you do not get healed is to search God’s Word for the answers.

The most important thing is not "What happens there?" but "What does he teach?" Is it sound and orthodox?

I do not know anything about the death of a woman falling backward after being slain in the Spirit. Whether true or not I do not know. But if it was true then why not ask the Hinn ministries for an explanation. I am sure they would give a reasonable answer.

I would love to hear an explanation on why that would be okay. I'd also love to hear an explanation about the prophecy CP brought up and about the supposed hospital that Hinn did several healings at that strangely, has no record of his ever being there.

I have no reason to believe it's a Christian movement, and it would take more than a healing to convince me. It would take seeing sound doctrine come and seeing people grow deeper in knowledge of the faith. Considering Hinn doesn't even get the Trinity right, I'm not holding my breath.

[FredFlanders]

I BELIEVE GOD CAN HEAL PEOPLE ACCORDING TO HIS PLANS AND PUPOSES !!!
but.......he must not be using Hinn to accomplish this because of the absence of REAL healings.

J,
There are real healings in the Hinn ministry done in the name of Christ. Fosus on God, not man. This is what Benny Hinn does and we can too. All you are going to do is find fault in man because of our past experiences. God does work in man as He commissioned us to sow and water His Word to others. He gives the increace/power/ability/miricle if we do this.

It is God's WILL that ALL get healed and come to salvation but we have to do our part and search Him out (according to His Word) to get the answers for healing or what ever our need is.

[Country Preacher]

J,
There are real healings in the Hinn ministry done in the name of Christ. Fosus on God, not man. This is what Benny Hinn does and we can too.

Yes, boys and girls, you too can give false prophesies and teach heresies!

[Sparko]

OOOOOHHHHHhhhhhhhhh the Irony!
Do they not have mirrors where you live, Fred? :smile:

:rofl:

[Shadow Phoenix]

CP. I just don't get you. People are being healed and you're worried about silly little things like sound doctrine, essential Christian teachings, and prophesying rightly in God's name?

Obviously, you need to get your priorities straight.

[Country Preacher]

CP. I just don't get you. People are being healed and you're worried about silly little things like sound doctrine, essential Christian teachings, and prophesying rightly in God's name?

Obviously, you need to get your priorities straight.

I'm gonna do better, I really am... and I spose i'm being a REAL picker of nit if I point out that Fred seems to put more emphasis on "healing" than Salvation...

It is God's WILL that ALL get healed and come to salvation ....

(I know that Peter told us that God is not willing that ANY should perish and ALL should come to eternal life, but ... well... nevermind... i'm being picky)

[Shadow Phoenix]

Oh I can agree that it's his will that all get healed.

It's just some won't have that happen till Heaven.

[Sparko]

CP. I just don't get you. People are being healed and you're worried about silly little things like sound doctrine, essential Christian teachings, and prophesying rightly in God's name?

Obviously, you need to get your priorities straight.

well he IS the antichrist afterall.

[FredFlanders]

Or Benny Hinn's FALSE PROPHESY?
Orlando Christian Center, Dec. 31st, 1989
"The Spirit tells me - Fidel Castro will die - in the 90's. Oooh my! Some will try to kill him and they will not succeed. But there will come a change in his physical health, and he will not stay in power, and Cuba will be visited of God.
Benny Hinn would have kicked his own butt for that and moved on. We are to judge prophesy and yes if they continued to be false I would not take much notice of that person. I have seen BH do personal prophesy to people and has been confirmed to be accurate. I have seen BH do “World Event” prophesy some of which I know to be accurate and some can be questionable. It is easy to get it wrong if our own thinking gets in the way when the Spirit talks through believers. I have seen believers exercise prophesy and get it wrong but as they grow in Christ so does accurate prophesy. The same would be with BH with his prophesies.

1 Cor 14 v 29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

[Country Preacher]

Benny Hinn would have kicked his own butt for that and moved on. We are to judge prophesy and yes if they continued to be false I would not take much notice of that person.


Soooooo... exactly how many prophesy mulligans does one get?

And then there's that pesky thing about his teaching of heresies...
but... i guess if folks are getting healed.... oh well!

[Sparko]

Bible doesn't say to give false prophets another chance.

It says:

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Deut 18:21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

[FredFlanders]

yes it was a parable. But it was about the kingdom of God and the Gospel. If someone keeps the Good News to themselves instead of "investing" it by telling others and growing the kingdom, then he is wasting his salvation. It is not about speaking in tongues or spiritual "talents"

Correct Sparco,
It is about sowing the Gospel of Christ using the fruits and gifts He gives us once you are in the Kingdom of God. Which are Prophesy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing, Teaching, Faith, Tongues, Love etc. But you have not entered into the Kingdom of God yet. I am sowing to you but you don't believe. If you believed you would have sought for the Holy Spirit. and received these gifts and fruits by the grace of God. At the moment you just say you believe in Jesus Christ without taking the Journey. Even Satan believes in Jesus Christ but that will not save him. You do not have to strive for any of these gifts as they will come automatically when you receive the Holy Spirit. Once we have the Holy Spirit you can operate these by Faith. No man will have to teach you as you will know from God yourself.

[FredFlanders]

OOOOOHHHHHhhhhhhhhh the Irony!
Do they not have mirrors where you live, Fred? :smile:

CP,
Quote me valid scripture and then our discussion would be more fruitfull.

[Country Preacher]

CP,
Quote me valid scripture and then our discussion would be more fruitfull.

fruitful. only one L.

and what scripture is NOT valid? (and on what topic, Fred?)

[Sparko]

Correct Sparco,
It is about sowing the Gospel of Christ using the fruits and gifts He gives us once you are in the Kingdom of God. Which are Prophesy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing, Teaching, Faith, Tongues, Love etc. But you have not entered into the Kingdom of God yet. I am sowing to you but you don't believe. If you believed you would have sought for the Holy Spirit. and received these gifts and fruits by the grace of God. At the moment you just say you believe in Jesus Christ without taking the Journey. Even Satan believes in Jesus Christ but that will not save him. You do not have to strive for any of these gifts as they will come automatically when you receive the Holy Spirit. Once we have the Holy Spirit you can operate these by Faith. No man will have to teach you as you will know from God yourself.

no. It's about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. The news that he came to save us from our sins and that those that believe are saved.

Fred, you are a wacko. A legalistic wacko. You distort the simple Gospel message and heap stuff on there that is not part of it. If the Holy Spirit gives a Christian a gift, it is because he wants to. If he witholds a gift it is because he wants to. Either way the person has to already be saved. And he is saved upon the knowledge and belief in the gospel. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are secondary to salvation.

I will do as far as to say you don't have any of these gifts, because you have shown none of the FRUITS of the holy spirit. Speaking in gibberish is all you do. You have fooled yourself into believing that you "speak in tongues" when what you do is gibber like a monkey.

[FredFlanders]

I would suspect the ones who have the best walk with God and are closest to him are often the ones who think just the opposite and the ones that think they're the most spiritual are the ones who are the least spiritual.

PF,
God gives his Grace (Favor and spiritual blessings) to the Humble (teachable) and that is why you cannot see.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[FredFlanders]

Bible doesn't say to give false prophets another chance.

It says:

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Deut 18:21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
I already know that you have not entered into the New Testement Covenant Sparko.

[Sparko]

I already know that you have not entered into the New Testement Covenant Sparko.

good thing you are not God, Fred, no matter what you think about yourself.

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I put my faith in him, not you.

[Cowthulu]

Originally posted by FredFlanders (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2723807#post2723807)
O, as I have said before, recieving the Holy Spirit is something you do after believing. Read Acts 8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+8) & 19 and you will see believers recieved the Holy Spirit when hands were laid on them. The same happens today. Then you will know you have access to all the gifts and fruits of the spirit. I will not have to tell you this as you will know from God yourself. Beats X Files. Act 10:44-48 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Act+10%3A44-48)
44While Peter was still speaking these words, (BO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27304BO))the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45(BP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27305BP))All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been (BQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27305BQ))poured out on the Gentiles also.
46For they were hearing them (BR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27306BR))speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47"(BS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27307BS))Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who (BT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27307BT))have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
48And he (BU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27308BU))ordered them to be baptized (BV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27308BV))in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.




No laying hands here, yet they still received the Holy Spirit. They weren't even baptized yet.


Yes C,
That is correct. Many people can receive the Holy Spirit alone through prayer between themselves and God. And some can be in a group of people such as on the Day of Pentecost or in Cornelius’s home and then baptized in water after receiving. Many however get filled with the Holy Spirit praying with another believer having hands laid upon them such as Acts 8 &19.

But I ask you this question; How did Peter and the Circumcision know that Cornelius and his household had received the Holy Spirit???

So I trust you will no longer imply or assert that laying on hands is required for one to receive the Holy Spirit since it is clearly possible from scriptural example to receive it otherwise?

These people who received the Spirit were not specifically seeking the Holy Spirit as you also claim is a requirement. They were seeking God, but had no idea to even look for the Holy Spirit to be poured into them. Yet they received it anyway. So your other claims that one MUST seek after the Spirit after believing and receiving Baptism are also clearly erroneous based on scriptural example.

Now on to your question.

Yes these people showed an outward sign of having the Holy Spirit by "speaking in tongues and exalting God". I am guessing you are planning on trying to re-affirm your claim that one must "operate all the gifts" if one has the Spirit. Clearly this would be a poor example for you to use.

Acts is Luke's rendering of church history. It is descriptive, not prescriptive. The best one could draw from this particular example is that speaking in tongues is A sign that one has the Holy Spirit. Exalting God would also be a sign that one has the Spirit. There is no reason to read into the text that they must do both together in order to have that outward sign.

The other thing that one can draw from this text though is that your claim that one "must operate all the gifts" to have the Spirit is not scripturally sound. These people have Apostolic witness to the fact that they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They only exhibited at most two at once and it was clear.

What I draw from Scripture as it pertains to most of your assertions regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit is this: The Holy Spirit is completely capable of exercising all possible gifts through any believer. However the believer is the instrument, not the commander of these gifts. They can only be used with the will of the Spirit itself. It is when the will of the believer and the will of the Spirit coincide that they most often manifest, though this is not also a requirement. The Holy Spirit may use a believer in this capacity at any time is wishes. If a believer does not exhibit any specific or particular sets of gifts, that is not a fault with the believer, that is simply a choice of the Spirit not to utilize a person in that way.. Claiming it is a deficiency in the believer is a sad sign of hubris at worst, and just plain bad theology at best on the part of the claimant IMO.

[Country Preacher]

.... What I draw from Scripture as it pertains to most of your assertions regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit is this: The Holy Spirit is completely capable of exercising all possible gifts through any believer. However the believer is the instrument, not the commander of these gifts. They can only be used with the will of the Spirit itself. It is when the will of the believer and the will of the Spirit coincide that they most often manifest, though this is not also a requirement. The Holy Spirit may use a believer in this capacity at any time is wishes. If a believer does not exhibit any specific or particular sets of gifts, that is not a fault with the believer, that is simply a choice of the Spirit not to utilize a person in that way.. Claiming it is a deficiency in the believer is a sad sign of hubris at worst, and just plain bad theology at best on the part of the claimant IMO.

[[[[Warning.. preacher story...]]]]

A guest preacher showed up to preach at chapel at a university.
On his way to the chapel, he noticed a man pumping water over behind a large building, far enough away that he could only make out the fact that "a man was pumping water".
After chapel service, the Dean of the university and the guest preacher stepped out of the chapel, and the preacher noticed the man was still pumping water, over an hour later.

The Dean saw the preacher looking at the man pumping water, and said, "OH, you have GOT to see this..."
they walked toward the man, and as they got closer, it became evident that it was not a man at all, but a plywood representation of a man, hinged and designed so that his "hand", attached to the pump handle, was actually being operated by the pump!

The dean explained - it is an artesian spring, with water flowing freely, passing through the pump, and causing the pump to turn, making the handle to go up and down, and the "man" is simply holding on.

The preacher, always seeing a sermon, replied... "just like man does not operate the Holy Spirit, but simply holds on, allowing the Holy Spirit to operate the man"

NOTE: all analogies have their flaws, and this is NOT to say that man is robotically controlled by the Spirit... simply that man is NOT in charge of the gifts or what the Holy Spirit does. Other disclaimers may apply, not acceptable by Fred or persons like him, the man in the story is not a real man, no persons were hurt or injured in the making of the man, the preacher in this story is a preacher in real life but I forgot his name, the Dean was a real dean of a real college but I forgot the details, artesian wells DO exist and may gush out water without human intervention, the likeness of the man is not intended to represent any person living, dead, or otherwise, blah blah blah, yada yada yada.

[eudyptes]

So I trust you will no longer imply or assert that laying on hands is required for one to receive the Holy Spirit since it is clearly possible from scriptural example to receive it otherwise?

These people who received the Spirit were not specifically seeking the Holy Spirit as you also claim is a requirement. They were seeking God, but had no idea to even look for the Holy Spirit to be poured into them. Yet they received it anyway. So your other claims that one MUST seek after the Spirit after believing and receiving Baptism are also clearly erroneous based on scriptural example.

Now on to your question.

Yes these people showed an outward sign of having the Holy Spirit by "speaking in tongues and exalting God". I am guessing you are planning on trying to re-affirm your claim that one must "operate all the gifts" if one has the Spirit. Clearly this would be a poor example for you to use.

Acts is Luke's rendering of church history. It is descriptive, not prescriptive. The best one could draw from this particular example is that speaking in tongues is A sign that one has the Holy Spirit. Exalting God would also be a sign that one has the Spirit. There is no reason to read into the text that they must do both together in order to have that outward sign.

The other thing that one can draw from this text though is that your claim that one "must operate all the gifts" to have the Spirit is not scripturally sound. These people have Apostolic witness to the fact that they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They only exhibited at most two at once and it was clear.

What I draw from Scripture as it pertains to most of your assertions regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit is this: The Holy Spirit is completely capable of exercising all possible gifts through any believer. However the believer is the instrument, not the commander of these gifts. They can only be used with the will of the Spirit itself. It is when the will of the believer and the will of the Spirit coincide that they most often manifest, though this is not also a requirement. The Holy Spirit may use a believer in this capacity at any time is wishes. If a believer does not exhibit any specific or particular sets of gifts, that is not a fault with the believer, that is simply a choice of the Spirit not to utilize a person in that way.. Claiming it is a deficiency in the believer is a sad sign of hubris at worst, and just plain bad theology at best on the part of the claimant IMO.

Very well said....

[barnasha]

The Holy Spirit is completely capable of

what is the holy spirit, exactly?

[Shadow Phoenix]

PF,
God gives his Grace (Favor and spiritual blessings) to the Humble (teachable) and that is why you cannot see.

Anybody else see the irony here?

[Country Preacher]

Anybody else see the irony here?

I'm sayin!

[Pilgrim]

Anybody else see the irony here?

:hi:

[Sparko]

Anybody else see the irony here?

I think flanders has gone beyond irony, into stainless steelery.

[Country Preacher]

I think flanders has gone beyond irony, into stainless steelery.

I was thinking BedRockery .. . as in Fred FLINTSTONE

[FredFlanders]

fruitful. only one L.

and what scripture is NOT valid? (and on what topic, Fred?)

CP, All scripture is valid but you never have any. Your teaching has lost its salt as you have been deceived by religious doctrines. You once had a calling with God but the enemy has taken you onto a different path. Your sword is now made out of clay.

[Country Preacher]

CP, All scripture is valid but you never have any. Your teaching has lost its salt as you have been deceived by religious doctrines. You once had a calling with God but the enemy has taken you onto a different path. Your sword is now made out of clay.

You're wrong, Fred.
You're so puffed up with yourself you have no clue what anybody else thinks or believes.
But, Have a nice day.

[FredFlanders]

no. It's about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. The news that he came to save us from our sins and that those that believe are saved.

Fred, you are a wacko. A legalistic wacko. You distort the simple Gospel message and heap stuff on there that is not part of it. If the Holy Spirit gives a Christian a gift, it is because he wants to. If he witholds a gift it is because he wants to. Either way the person has to already be saved. And he is saved upon the knowledge and belief in the gospel. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are secondary to salvation.

I will do as far as to say you don't have any of these gifts, because you have shown none of the FRUITS of the holy spirit. Speaking in gibberish is all you do. You have fooled yourself into believing that you "speak in tongues" when what you do is gibber like a monkey.

Sparko,
We are saved by Grace (favor and spiritual blessings) which are all in the Holy Spirit. The Gospel message we reflect are in all the gifts and fruits of the Spirit of which you have none as yet. You think you have knowledge and wisdom but you stood in the wrong line and the enemy has made you believe a lie.

[Country Preacher]

Sparko,
We are saved by Grace (favor and spiritual blessings) which are all in the Holy Spirit. The Gospel message we reflect are in all the gifts and fruits of the Spirit of which you have none as yet. You think you have knowledge and wisdom but you stood in the wrong line and the enemy has made you believe a lie.

Isn't this guy a blessing, Sparko?
I'm beginning to think he's not real - he's like the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live, or somebody PRETENDING to be a phony Christian or something.
NOBODY can be that full of themselves.

[FredFlanders]

So I trust you will no longer imply or assert that laying on hands is required for one to receive the Holy Spirit since it is clearly possible from scriptural example to receive it otherwise?

These people who received the Spirit were not specifically seeking the Holy Spirit as you also claim is a requirement. They were seeking God, but had no idea to even look for the Holy Spirit to be poured into them. Yet they received it anyway. So your other claims that one MUST seek after the Spirit after believing and receiving Baptism are also clearly erroneous based on scriptural example.

Now on to your question.

Yes these people showed an outward sign of having the Holy Spirit by "speaking in tongues and exalting God". I am guessing you are planning on trying to re-affirm your claim that one must "operate all the gifts" if one has the Spirit. Clearly this would be a poor example for you to use.

Acts is Luke's rendering of church history. It is descriptive, not prescriptive. The best one could draw from this particular example is that speaking in tongues is A sign that one has the Holy Spirit. Exalting God would also be a sign that one has the Spirit. There is no reason to read into the text that they must do both together in order to have that outward sign.

The other thing that one can draw from this text though is that your claim that one "must operate all the gifts" to have the Spirit is not scripturally sound. These people have Apostolic witness to the fact that they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They only exhibited at most two at once and it was clear.

What I draw from Scripture as it pertains to most of your assertions regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit is this: The Holy Spirit is completely capable of exercising all possible gifts through any believer. However the believer is the instrument, not the commander of these gifts. They can only be used with the will of the Spirit itself. It is when the will of the believer and the will of the Spirit coincide that they most often manifest, though this is not also a requirement. The Holy Spirit may use a believer in this capacity at any time is wishes. If a believer does not exhibit any specific or particular sets of gifts, that is not a fault with the believer, that is simply a choice of the Spirit not to utilize a person in that way.. Claiming it is a deficiency in the believer is a sad sign of hubris at worst, and just plain bad theology at best on the part of the claimant IMO.
C,
You obversely have not read all my posts and got the context. But I do believe it is the will of God that we desire All Spiritual Gifts although many Spirit Filled believers do not operate them all. This is what a believer does but is only possible once they receive the Holy Spirit. These gifts are foreign to these people because hey have not yet received the Holy Spirit.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I've decided I wanna be like Fred someday.

I wanna be so full of the Spirit that I can tell no one else has it like I do and that I can tell them all that they're ignorant because they just don't have what I have. I can tell them all they're all believing lies without ever having to back any of my statements and I can sound really spiritual the whole time even though I'm making everyone around me not want a thing to do with the Christianity I have. I need to work on being more self-righteous obviously.

I guess I'd better start.

Hey CP! I'm more holy than you are!

[Country Preacher]

us obviously.

I guess I'd better start.

Hey CP! I'm more holy than you are!

You gotta do better than that, AP! (or PF :smile:)
you're not quite mean enough or ...
you have to be a lot more condescending.
And try adding some totally irrelevant Scripture about ... oh... snakes and vipers or something.

[FredFlanders]

[[[[Warning.. preacher story...]]]]

A guest preacher showed up to preach at chapel at a university.
On his way to the chapel, he noticed a man pumping water over behind a large building, far enough away that he could only make out the fact that "a man was pumping water".
After chapel service, the Dean of the university and the guest preacher stepped out of the chapel, and the preacher noticed the man was still pumping water, over an hour later.

The Dean saw the preacher looking at the man pumping water, and said, "OH, you have GOT to see this..."
they walked toward the man, and as they got closer, it became evident that it was not a man at all, but a plywood representation of a man, hinged and designed so that his "hand", attached to the pump handle, was actually being operated by the pump!

The dean explained - it is an artesian spring, with water flowing freely, passing through the pump, and causing the pump to turn, making the handle to go up and down, and the "man" is simply holding on.

The preacher, always seeing a sermon, replied... "just like man does not operate the Holy Spirit, but simply holds on, allowing the Holy Spirit to operate the man"

NOTE: all analogies have their flaws, and this is NOT to say that man is robotically controlled by the Spirit... simply that man is NOT in charge of the gifts or what the Holy Spirit does. Other disclaimers may apply, not acceptable by Fred or persons like him, the man in the story is not a real man, no persons were hurt or injured in the making of the man, the preacher in this story is a preacher in real life but I forgot his name, the Dean was a real dean of a real college but I forgot the details, artesian wells DO exist and may gush out water without human intervention, the likeness of the man is not intended to represent any person living, dead, or otherwise, blah blah blah, yada yada yada.

That is exactly why non of you can operate any gift or have the Holy Spirit.. Simply because you are waiting for a bolt from heaven. There will be no sign for you other than the gifts Jesus said would follow believers.

1 Cor 14 v 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

[Shadow Phoenix]

You gotta do better than that, AP! (or PF :smile:)
you're not quite mean enough or ...
you have to be a lot more condescending.
And try adding some totally irrelevant Scripture about ... oh... snakes and vipers or something.

In the land of Uz there lived a man named Job.

That's why you're so ignorant CP.

[eye of sauron]

PF,
Hundreds get healed permanently at Hinn’s meetings, hundreds get healed temporarily and hundreds do not get healed at all. There are Biblical reasons for this. The most important thing is if you do not get healed is to search God’s Word for the answers.

So, I did not see any one ask about this, so I will, I guess.

I don't recall any healings in the Bible where the recipient of God's healing power was temporarily healed (if I am wrong, please show me).

I understand full healing permanently - these examples are obvious throughout Scripture. I also know that in each case, there was an underlying purpose for doing so - mainly, to show God's glory and power. (Yes, there can and are other reasons, but let's stay on topic, shall we??? :smile:)

So, what about temporary healings?

Disclaimer (yes, I "borrowed" the idea from CP) - I am in no way passing judgement on one Mr. Hinn or his activities (I tried to type ministry, but in good conscience, could not.) I AM serious about my question, so please, show me.

[FredFlanders]

what is the holy spirit, exactly?

B,
It is an empowerment that fills you do do the works of Christ. If you read Mark 16 v 16-20 and the gifts that operate in the Church in 1 Cor 12 you will get some idea.

Most Christian religions are false and turn people away from the true and living God by their hypocrisy like the False Prophets, Scribes and Pharisees did.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Most Christian religions are false and turn people away from the true and living God by their hypocrisy like the False Prophets,

Dang. There goes that irony meter again.....

[Country Preacher]

Dang. There goes that irony meter again.....

Well, Hold on just a minute, AP... Fred and Barnsha.... If EVER there were two people who DESERVED one another.... this could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship!!!!

:flowers:

[FredFlanders]

You're wrong, Fred.
You're so puffed up with yourself you have no clue what anybody else thinks or believes.
But, Have a nice day.

Your confession shows exactly what you believe. It goes in all directions like the goats.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Practically written in the stars. All we need is for Ty to join in.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Your confession shows exactly what you believe.

I note there's no denial that what CP says is true.

[Country Preacher]

Your confession shows exactly what you believe. It goes in all directions like the goats.

I confess Christ crucified, buried, and risen again, who has gone to Heaven to prepare a place for me, giving me the Holy Spirit to guide and empower me.
I further confess that some people get kinda nutty about the Holy Spirit, pretending to be experts in His ways, and professing themselves wise, they demonstrate that they are fools.
There's more, but that will do for now.
:smile:

[eudyptes]

Originally posted by barnasha (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2725261#post2725261)
what is the holy spirit, exactly?


B,
It is an empowerment that fills you do do the works of Christ. If you read Mark 16 v 16-20 and the gifts that operate in the Church in 1 Cor 12 you will get some idea.
.

The Holy Spirit is NOT an "it", nor is He and "empowerment". He is God....you know as in a part of the trinity...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

[eye of sauron]

Originally posted by barnasha (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2725261#post2725261)
what is the holy spirit, exactly?




The Holy Spirit is NOT an "it", nor is He and "empowerment". He is God....you know as in a part of the trinity...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Thanks eudyptes - I was just going to comment on that post. Now, being new here, and lurking a bit, I suspect the use of "it" in reference was intentional, but I will give Fred the benefit of the doubt and ask directly:

Fred - Was your statement of the Holy Spirit as "it" a misstatement, or did you intend that? If so, how do you reconcile that to John 14:15-17, where Jesus clearly refers to the Spirit of Truth (i.e the Holy Spirit) as "him" (or Him, if you prefer)?

[Cowthulu]

C,
FF,
You obversely have not read all my posts and got the context.

Where am I incorrect then if it obvious (I assume that is what you meant by "obversely")? What context have I missed?

But I do believe it is the will of God that we desire All Spiritual Gifts although many Spirit Filled believers do not operate them all.

Agreed. The Holy Spirit CAN manifest any and all gifts through a believer. However it is not necessary that it WILL manifest those gifts in a particular believer.

This is what a believer does but is only possible once they receive the Holy Spirit.

This is what the Holy Spirit does through a believer, would be a better way of saying it. The believer doesn't heal someone for example, the Holy Spirit heals someone through a believer.

These gifts are foreign to these people because hey have not yet received the Holy Spirit.

:shrug:

That is a pretty bold statement to make about someone you know so little about through a message board.

[Sparko]

Isn't this guy a blessing, Sparko?
I'm beginning to think he's not real - he's like the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live, or somebody PRETENDING to be a phony Christian or something.
NOBODY can be that full of themselves.


I think God sent him to you so you can use him in a sermon one day CP. An example of invincible pride and ignorance bound up into one heretical mess.

[FredFlanders]

Thanks eudyptes - I was just going to comment on that post. Now, being new here, and lurking a bit, I suspect the use of "it" in reference was intentional, but I will give Fred the benefit of the doubt and ask directly:
Fred - Was your statement of the Holy Spirit as "it" a misstatement, or did you intend that? If so, how do you reconcile that to John 14:15-17, where Jesus clearly refers to the Spirit of Truth (i.e the Holy Spirit) as "him" (or Him, if you prefer)? If you look at the question that was asked you will see that 'it' was refering to the Holy Spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit is the Truth and yes the Holy Spirit is Jesus in us which allows us to do the same works as Christ. 1 Cor 12 is a good example of how the Body of Christ works in us. I hope you understand what I am saying now?

[FredFlanders]

FF,


Where am I incorrect then if it obvious (I assume that is what you meant by "obversely")? What context have I missed?



Agreed. The Holy Spirit CAN manifest any and all gifts through a believer. However it is not necessary that it WILL manifest those gifts in a particular believer.



This is what the Holy Spirit does through a believer, would be a better way of saying it. The believer doesn't heal someone for example, the Holy Spirit heals someone through a believer.



:shrug:
That is a pretty bold statement to make about someone you know so little about through a message board.Sorry about the spelling as much of this is done on my mobile without a spell check. The context of the post was an answer to some one who did not believe that you could receive the Holy Spirit by having hands laid upon you. We can operate ALL gifts by Faith. The Spirit wills that we do this when needed. We are told to desire Spiritual gi fts. And yes we do not do the healing but it is God. By Faith we lay hands on the sick, say a prayer of healing and God does the miracle. Another gift is to discern spirits. By ones confession we are able to know wether they have the Holy Spirit or not.

[FredFlanders]

I think God sent him to you so you can use him in a sermon one day CP. An example of invincible pride and ignorance bound up into one heretical mess.
Sparko, you might be suprised what miracles might happen if some one actually spoke the Truth in your or CP's denomination.

[barnasha]

I wonder what argument he was making that was so good they had to attack him.


"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

[FredFlanders]

So, I did not see any one ask about this, so I will, I guess.

I don't recall any healings in the Bible where the recipient of God's healing power was temporarily healed (if I am wrong, please show me).

I understand full healing permanently - these examples are obvious throughout Scripture. I also know that in each case, there was an underlying purpose for doing so - mainly, to show God's glory and power. (Yes, there can and are other reasons, but let's stay on topic, shall we??? :smile:)

So, what about temporary healings?

Disclaimer (yes, I "borrowed" the idea from CP) - I am in no way passing judgement on one Mr. Hinn or his activities (I tried to type ministry, but in good conscience, could not.) I AM serious about my question, so please, show me.Many come to BH meetings, get touched by the Lord, get healed then retun to their old ways of thinking or listen to ungodly friends and lose their healing. This is common so it is important that the believer gets sown into good ground or the enemy (usually false religion) will come and snatch them away. BH type of ministry works but you need to show uncompromising Faith or the enemy will use every trick to distract you. We can learn by our mistakes, also see how the enemy tries to derail us and do it better as we put it into practice.

[FredFlanders]

I wonder what argument he was making that was so good they had to attack him.


"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."
Correct B, they are just like the False Prophets, Scribes and Pharisees attacking Christ when the Truth is told. The antichrist always attacks the spiritual/gifts manifestations of Christ in the believer. By their pride they cannot see.

[Country Preacher]

Many come to BH meetings, get touched by the Lord, get healed then retun to their old ways of thinking or listen to ungodly friends and lose their healing. This is common so it is important that the believer gets sown into good ground or the enemy (usually false religion) will come and snatch them away. BH type of ministry works but you need to show uncompromising Faith or the enemy will use every trick to distract you. We can learn by our mistakes, also see how the enemy tries to derail us and do it better as we put it into practice.

Fred,
Is it really OK that BH has made numerous false prophesies? I would really appreciate an honest answer. I think somehow you were trying to say that the NT "rules" for prophesy override the OT guidance?

[Country Preacher]

I wonder what argument he was making that was so good they had to attack him.


"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

Barny...
Pointing out that a man made false prophesies is not an attack. It is a responsibility.
And the fact that he is being called out on it is CERTAINLY no proof that it was a good argument.

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
Is it really OK that BH has made numerous false prophesies? I would really appreciate an honest answer. I think somehow you were trying to say that the NT "rules" for prophesy override the OT guidance?CP, the few times I have watched BH I have not seen any false prophesies. Not to say BH has made some in the past as I do not know, other than you have said so. CP if I was you I would not be throwing to many stones at BH as plenty will return to fall on you.

[Country Preacher]

CP, the few times I have watched BH I have not seen any false prophesies. Not to say BH has made some in the past as I do not know, other than you have said so. CP if I was you I would not be throwing to many stones at BH as plenty will return to fall on you.

Not just I who have said so, Fred. He is on record in speeches and sermons and interviews. It is established fact. You simply close your eyes to it because you want to focus on miracles.

Should the stone-throwing be reserved only to you, Fred? Are you the official stone thrower?

Are you familiar (I know you are) with 1 Cor 14? It is my responsibility as an under-shepherd to the King to discern the prophet who speaks false prophesies. I have an obligation to defend the sheep from the wolves.

OK, let's try it this way.
ASSUME, please, if you will, that "a minister" is on record as speaking false prophesies. Assume, for the sake of argument, that that's true.
Would you give that "prophet" a pass?

[Michelle]

Fred, are you a happy man?

Your brand of Christianity make me tired to even think about. First, you have to operate all the gifts of the Spirit. How do you get them all in?

Second, if you are blessed by God with, say, a healing, it is then up to you to maintain a proper level of faith, or your sickness or disability might suddenly flare up again. So on top of all the exercising of the gifts, you need to be hyper-vigilant regarding your level of faith. No dark night of the soul allowed!

Third, you have to be very careful about where you're throwing your stones; it's fine to bash anyone who questions your teaching -- go ahead, tell 'em their not saved. Be careful when it comes to a prophet, however. He may be a false prophet, but you wouldn't want to make a mistake there and end up on the receiving end of his curses, I'm sure.

I dunno, Fred, I'm exhausted even thinking about the work you do for your salvation. I prefer to find rest in Christ Jesus.

[eye of sauron]

If you look at the question that was asked you will see that 'it' was refering to the Holy Spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit is the Truth and yes the Holy Spirit is Jesus in us which allows us to do the same works as Christ. 1 Cor 12 is a good example of how the Body of Christ works in us. I hope you understand what I am saying now?

Thank you Fred for answering the question. I don't agree with you that the Holy Spirit is Jesus, as I referenced in John above, but you did answer my question, yes. I do appreciate that.


To my other question about temporary healings, you responded:
Many come to BH meetings, get touched by the Lord, get healed then retun to their old ways of thinking or listen to ungodly friends and lose their healing. This is common so it is important that the believer gets sown into good ground or the enemy (usually false religion) will come and snatch them away. BH type of ministry works but you need to show uncompromising Faith or the enemy will use every trick to distract you. We can learn by our mistakes, also see how the enemy tries to derail us and do it better as we put it into practice.

It wasn't my intent to discuss Hinn specifically. I was really more curious where the Bible teaches about temporary healings (at least I hope the intent was clear). If you can point me there, great. If not, then ok. I will leave it at that. (Which is not to say I agree with you, I want to see what Biblical basis there might be for this so I can read it and consider it myself).

Thanks.

[Cowthulu]

Sorry about the spelling as much of this is done on my mobile without a spell check.

No worries. I was able to figure it out.

The context of the post was an answer to some one who did not believe that you could receive the Holy Spirit by having hands laid upon you.

I have not seen someone say that you can't receive the Spirit by having hand laid upon you. The bone of contention would be more specifically that some people believe you were saying saying that laying of hands was required to receive the Spirit. I know I got that impression from your posts. I assume now that we are in agreement that laying hands is NOT an absolute requirement based on the examples from Scripture.

We can operate ALL gifts by Faith. The Spirit wills that we do this when needed.

No offense intended, but do you really think "operate" is the correct term. It makes it sound like the Believer commands the gifts. I much prefer "manifest" personally. It is at the urging of the Holy Spirit that we becomes its instrument through which the gifts manifest. Any believer can manifest any or all the gifts of the Spirit when the Spirit so desires.

We are told to desire Spiritual gifts.

Indeed, it is a great honor to be used to glorify God in this manner.

And yes we do not do the healing but it is God. By Faith we lay hands on the sick, say a prayer of healing and God does the miracle.

Agreed. However be careful. It is not an incantation. God may manifest these gifts to his own glory without any specific set of actions or ritual.

Another gift is to discern spirits. By ones confession we are able to know whether they have the Holy Spirit or not.

Do you have a verse that states such? By their fruits we shall know them is a good verse, but hardly gives us any type of absolute knowledge of another person's walk with God.

Couple of other questions for you.

1. I don't want to put words in your mouth or text in your posts, but from the tone of your posts one could easily surmise that you believe Salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit are separate events. Is that your position?

2. Based on number 1, do you mean to say when you accuse someone of not having the Holy Spirit that they are not saved, but damned even though they are confessing believers who call Jesus Lord and Savior?

[Obsidian]

Hundreds get healed permanently at Hinn’s meetings, hundreds get healed temporarily and hundreds do not get healed at all. There are Biblical reasons for this. The most important thing is if you do not get healed is to search God’s Word for the answers.

Did Jesus ever perform a temporary healing? The fact that you would have even one temporary healing would make me very suspicious.

[Country Preacher]

Did Jesus ever perform a temporary healing? The fact that you would have even one temporary healing would make me very suspicious.

EXACTLY... this is the first time I've ever heard somebody advocate "temporary healings"... I guess I live a sheltered life :shrug:

And the burden of proof for "is [name your favorite faith healer here] REALLY doing this in the power of the Holy Spirit..." Fred shifts that burden of proof to the "healed" person... if the healing doesn't "take", it's the (temporarily healed) person's fault.

I'm beginning to see how all this works. Or doesn't. Or temporarily does. :huh:

[Shadow Phoenix]

If the Holy Spirit is Jesus, I'd like to know why blasphemy against the Son of Man is forgivable but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't.

[FredFlanders]

Not just I who have said so, Fred. He is on record in speeches and sermons and interviews. It is established fact. You simply close your eyes to it because you want to focus on miracles.

Should the stone-throwing be reserved only to you, Fred? Are you the official stone thrower?

Are you familiar (I know you are) with 1 Cor 14? It is my responsibility as an under-shepherd to the King to discern the prophet who speaks false prophesies. I have an obligation to defend the sheep from the wolves.

OK, let's try it this way.
ASSUME, please, if you will, that "a minister" is on record as speaking false prophesies. Assume, for the sake of argument, that that's true.
Would you give that "prophet" a pass?

Yes CP, I throw stones at what is false and you can to at BH and me if what I say is false. (but what I say is truth other than you take a lot of what I say out of context rather than searching the scriptures with me and sharpening your sword) That is part of the ministry, but once the situation is corrected we forgive and move on.

I am not focused on BH or the healing ministry but on all the Gifts of the Spirit as all are important and Glorify Christ.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, are you a happy man?

Your brand of Christianity make me tired to even think about. First, you have to operate all the gifts of the Spirit. How do you get them all in?

Second, if you are blessed by God with, say, a healing, it is then up to you to maintain a proper level of faith, or your sickness or disability might suddenly flare up again. So on top of all the exercising of the gifts, you need to be hyper-vigilant regarding your level of faith. No dark night of the soul allowed!

Third, you have to be very careful about where you're throwing your stones; it's fine to bash anyone who questions your teaching -- go ahead, tell 'em their not saved. Be careful when it comes to a prophet, however. He may be a false prophet, but you wouldn't want to make a mistake there and end up on the receiving end of his curses, I'm sure.

I dunno, Fred, I'm exhausted even thinking about the work you do for your salvation. I prefer to find rest in Christ Jesus.
Michelle, I am a very happy man walking in the Spirit of God.

When we receive the Holy Spirit we have access to all the Gifts by Faith. Faith is also one of the gifts received. At the moment you are walking in your own faith/abilities because you have not yet received the Holy Spirit.

Many physical and mental sickness are caused by demonic spirits. God can heal you to show His Love to you but if you continue in sin you open the doors for sickness to return.

Christ bashes any one who miss represents His Word for the sake of getting them back onto the path of salvation. If He did not Love us He would not correct us when we went astray. If you do not have the Holy Spirit or you are not walking in the Holy Spirit you will not be in the resurrection of the Saints but you can try your luck in the judgement after the 1000 years.

No exhaustion in the Holy Spirit as it is the Holy Spirit that gives us life.

[FredFlanders]

Thank you Fred for answering the question. I don't agree with you that the Holy Spirit is Jesus, as I referenced in John above, but you did answer my question, yes. I do appreciate that.


To my other question about temporary healings, you responded:


It wasn't my intent to discuss Hinn specifically. I was really more curious where the Bible teaches about temporary healings (at least I hope the intent was clear). If you can point me there, great. If not, then ok. I will leave it at that. (Which is not to say I agree with you, I want to see what Biblical basis there might be for this so I can read it and consider it myself).

Thanks.
Jesus was the first Comforter and He said when He goes away He would send another Comforter which was the Holy Ghost/Spirit. This Holy Spirit gives us the same characteristics as Christ.
1 John 4 v 13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.

E o S, Many physical and mental sickness are caused by demonic spirits. God can heal you to show His Love to you but if you continue in sin you open the doors for sickness to return.
Matt 12 v 43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Just using BH ministries as an example. The Holy Spirit anointing is very strong in BH meetings (and can be within us) and many demonic spirits will leave the sick, under this anointing but easily return when the person is out of the meeting and anointing.

It is good you be the judge.

[Country Preacher]

Yes CP, I throw stones at what is false

no, Fred, you throw stones at human beings.

.. and you can to at BH and me if what I say is false. (but what I say is truth other than you take a lot of what I say out of context rather than searching the scriptures with me and sharpening your sword)List for me some things I take out of context, Fred.

That is part of the ministry, but once the situation is corrected we forgive and move on.forgive WHAT, Fred?

I am not focused on BH or the healing ministry but on all the Gifts of the Spirit as all are important and Glorify Christ.Benny Hinn is a false prophet. It can be documented clearly by what he says, and what does not come true. That is fact. Verifiable. His own words. How can you justify defending a false prophet?

[Country Preacher]

Christ bashes any one who miss represents His Word for the sake of getting them back onto the path of salvation.

Scripture, please. I'm familiar with the chastening of the Lord, but new to this "bashing".

[Country Preacher]

Did Jesus ever perform a temporary healing? The fact that you would have even one temporary healing would make me very suspicious.

And, while we're at it, Fred, can you please answer Obsidian on this? Thanks.

[FredFlanders]

No worries. I was able to figure it out.



I have not seen someone say that you can't receive the Spirit by having hand laid upon you. The bone of contention would be more specifically that some people believe you were saying saying that laying of hands was required to receive the Spirit. I know I got that impression from your posts. I assume now that we are in agreement that laying hands is NOT an absolute requirement based on the examples from Scripture.



No offense intended, but do you really think "operate" is the correct term. It makes it sound like the Believer commands the gifts. I much prefer "manifest" personally. It is at the urging of the Holy Spirit that we becomes its instrument through which the gifts manifest. Any believer can manifest any or all the gifts of the Spirit when the Spirit so desires.



Indeed, it is a great honor to be used to glorify God in this manner.



Agreed. However be careful. It is not an incantation. God may manifest these gifts to his own glory without any specific set of actions or ritual.



Do you have a verse that states such? By their fruits we shall know them is a good verse, but hardly gives us any type of absolute knowledge of another person's walk with God.

Couple of other questions for you.

1. I don't want to put words in your mouth or text in your posts, but from the tone of your posts one could easily surmise that you believe Salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit are separate events. Is that your position?

2. Based on number 1, do you mean to say when you accuse someone of not having the Holy Spirit that they are not saved, but damned even though they are confessing believers who call Jesus Lord and Savior?

C, this was the question I was answering.

Do you think believers can lay hands on others to receive the Holy Spirit?
No, you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe in Christ. No hands are needed.

But we agree that there are other ways this event happens.

I agree any believer can manifest any or all the gifts of the Spirit when the Spirit so desires. I do not have the problem with the word "operate" as it is up to us to step out in Faith and do the laying of hands and/or asking/prayer and let God do the miracle. It is not my experience miracles just happen unless we are praying/asking for the Spirit to move. Not to say there ar angels watching over us who will protect us at any given moment without our asking.

The the scripture talks about "fruits" the religious always points to Gal 5 v 22-23 and forget the rest of the Gospel. The fruits works in conjunction with the gifts. A good concordance will show you that when it says "you will know them by their fruits" means All their deeds in Christ which includes fruits and gifts.

I have stated that believing and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two separate events. We go and get filled with the Holy Spirit (also baptised in water) after believing. We show our belief by continuing in the Gospel of Christ. Christ first commandment to His followers, after His resurrection was to go and receive the Holy Spirit and Power. Many believers do not do this and they fall on the path (see the sower and the seed) and are deceived by the enemy (false religion)

Many call Lord, Lord and not follow the full Gospel of Christ. You can see through the parables what will be their out come. The Holy Spirit is essential to our walk in Christ and for your salvation with the Saints.

[FredFlanders]

Did Jesus ever perform a temporary healing? The fact that you would have even one temporary healing would make me very suspicious.

It happens if you turn back into sin and unbelief. You then allow access to the demons. You become captive again after being set free.

[Country Preacher]

A good concordance will show you that when it says "you will know them by their fruits" means All their deeds in Christ which includes fruits and gifts.

Can you give a citation?

[FredFlanders]

EXACTLY... this is the first time I've ever heard somebody advocate "temporary healings"... I guess I live a sheltered life :shrug:

And the burden of proof for "is [name your favorite faith healer here] REALLY doing this in the power of the Holy Spirit..." Fred shifts that burden of proof to the "healed" person... if the healing doesn't "take", it's the (temporarily healed) person's fault.

I'm beginning to see how all this works. Or doesn't. Or temporarily does. :huh:

No body is fault finding any sick person. The enemy is out to kill and destroy by deceit. We ALL seek God through His Word, put on His armour and if possible show others through the Word how to put on their armour.

[FredFlanders]

Scripture, please. I'm familiar with the chastening of the Lord, but new to this "bashing".

Get a life CP, if you read the dialogue you will just see I was answering in the same jest.

[Country Preacher]

Get a life CP, if you read the dialogue you will just see I was answering in the same jest.

Sorry Fred.. didn't know you were capable of jesting.
I thought all you could do was condemn.
With all your other really weird ideas, I thought maybe this was just one more.

Just the same, Jesus doesn't bash. :smile:

[Cowthulu]

C, this was the question I was answering.

Do you think believers can lay hands on others to receive the Holy Spirit?
No, you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe in Christ. No hands are needed.

But we agree that there are other ways this event happens.

Looks like we are all on the same page now. Laying hands sometimes accompanies receiving the Holy Spirit, but is not required.

I agree any believer can manifest any or all the gifts of the Spirit when the Spirit so desires. I do not have the problem with the word "operate" as it is up to us to step out in Faith and do the laying of hands and/or asking/prayer and let God do the miracle.

I can only say that "operate" is not the right word in my opinion. We don't command the Holy Spirit or the Gifts it can give like we operate a car or piece of machinery. Maybe you find it palatable to your own ear, but to me it is sends the wrong impression.

It is not my experience miracles just happen unless we are praying/asking for the Spirit to move. Not to say there ar angels watching over us who will protect us at any given moment without our asking.

Miracles are often accompanied by prayer and laying hands, but these are not incantations like I said. We don't command the Spirit.

The the scripture talks about "fruits" the religious always points to Gal 5 v 22-23 and forget the rest of the Gospel. The fruits works in conjunction with the gifts. A good concordance will show you that when it says "you will know them by their fruits" means All their deeds in Christ which includes fruits and gifts.

No idea what you are getting at here? Are you trying to answer my question from earlier? What scripture verse says we can know whether one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not?

I have stated that believing and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two separate events. We go and get filled with the Holy Spirit (also baptised in water) after believing. We show our belief by continuing in the Gospel of Christ. Christ first commandment to His followers, after His resurrection was to go and receive the Holy Spirit and Power. Many believers do not do this and they fall on the path (see the sower and the seed) and are deceived by the enemy (false religion)

Jesus told us believing is what gives us eternal life in John 3:16. Why would you add other steps where Jesus does not?

Many call Lord, Lord and not follow the full Gospel of Christ. You can see through the parables what will be their out come. The Holy Spirit is essential to our walk in Christ and for your salvation with the Saints.

True, however I still do not see where you can come to the pronouncement of a person's damnation. One could easily see your posts as saying that those who disagree with you are not possessed by the Holy Spirit.

[Obsidian]

@Fred
Your explanation about the temporary healings is actually pretty clever. But realistically, we still don't have any examples of these temporary healings in the Bible. The closest thing would be the unblinding of Paul, which many many years down the road led to a "thorn in the flesh." The thorn may have been a demon, although it presumably was not a punishment/discipline for any sin of Paul's.

Ultimately, I'm just not finding this demons-cause-disease idea very convincing. I believe that demons exist, and that they can affect us, but I science has shown that most diseases are biologically based.

And even if demons were causing the disease, shouldn't it take a bit longer for the Christians to backslide and warrant God's discipline? Like I said, the Bible doesn't include any healings that vanished in a short period of time.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I find it interesting Freddie never addressed my point.

[Country Preacher]

I find it interesting Freddie never addressed my point.

He doesn't answer direct questions - only things he can obfuscate.
I asked for the "good commentary" that agrees with his wacky view of "fruits"... he kinda bypassed that one in favor of smarting to me about Jesus bashing people.

Odd fellow, Fred.

[FredFlanders]

Looks like we are all on the same page now. Laying hands sometimes accompanies receiving the Holy Spirit, but is not required.



I can only say that "operate" is not the right word in my opinion. We don't command the Holy Spirit or the Gifts it can give like we operate a car or piece of machinery. Maybe you find it palatable to your own ear, but to me it is sends the wrong impression.



Miracles are often accompanied by prayer and laying hands, but these are not incantations like I said. We don't command the Spirit.



No idea what you are getting at here? Are you trying to answer my question from earlier? What scripture verse says we can know whether one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not?



Jesus told us believing is what gives us eternal life in John 3:16. Why would you add other steps where Jesus does not?



True, however I still do not see where you can come to the pronouncement of a person's damnation. One could easily see your posts as saying that those who disagree with you are not possessed by the Holy Spirit.C, do you believe that a believer can manifest/operate any gift at any time by word and action? Do you believe that a believer who calls Jesus his Lord follows through with Jesus's commandment of being baptised in water, baptised in the Spirit then follows the Gospel of Christ growing from Faith to Faith?

[FredFlanders]

If the Holy Spirit is Jesus, I'd like to know why blasphemy against the Son of Man is forgivable but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't.Any one speaking and walking against the Holy Spirit once they have been enlighten by the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. AP as you have not yet been enlighten by the Holy Spirit and still see Christ as a man and do not know Him within you as yet you can be forgiven for your ignorance if you repent and seek for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

@Fred
Your explanation about the temporary healings is actually pretty clever. But realistically, we still don't have any examples of these temporary healings in the Bible. The closest thing would be the unblinding of Paul, which many many years down the road led to a "thorn in the flesh." The thorn may have been a demon, although it presumably was not a punishment/discipline for any sin of Paul's.

Ultimately, I'm just not finding this demons-cause-disease idea very convincing. I believe that demons exist, and that they can affect us, but I science has shown that most diseases are biologically based.

And even if demons were causing the disease, shouldn't it take a bit longer for the Christians to backslide and warrant God's discipline? Like I said, the Bible doesn't include any healings that vanished in a short period of time.O, I cannot see any NT scripure of an actual physical example. But only what I have seen personally. Many come to Jesus, get healed, then the enemy tries to snatch away what Jesus has done through deceit like the seed that fell on the path. I would rather put my faith in Jesus than science.

[FredFlanders]

I find it interesting Freddie never addressed my point.Keep your pants on AP. What have I missed?

[Shadow Phoenix]

Keep your pants on AP. What have I missed?

The question. I asked that if Jesus is the Holy Spirit, why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unforgivable but blasphemy against Jesus is?

[eudyptes]

O, I cannot see any NT scripure of an actual physical example. But only what I have seen personally. Many come to Jesus, get healed, then the enemy tries to snatch away what Jesus has done through deceit like the seed that fell on the path. I would rather put my faith in Jesus than science.


So in other words when someone who has been shown to be a false prophet makes claims that they've healed someone and that someone doesn't remain healed....you with NO scriptual backing...begin to make excuses for the "prophet"...instead of following Scripture.

Based on this....anyone can do anything as long as they claim it's in the Spirit...and it's all good. If you were putting faith in Jesus...you'd be following the Scripture, not coming up with ways to make your views fit...even if you can't find NT scriptures.

[FredFlanders]

The question. I asked that if Jesus is the Holy Spirit, why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unforgivable but blasphemy against Jesus is?OK PF, I have now in post 181.

[FredFlanders]

He doesn't answer direct questions - only things he can obfuscate.
I asked for the "good commentary" that agrees with his wacky view of "fruits"... he kinda bypassed that one in favor of smarting to me about Jesus bashing people.

Odd fellow, Fred.CP, read Matt 7 v 13 to 27. The friuts are known as deeds of Christ. As we follow and obey the Word of Christ we conform into His image or character. Jesus' character or image was reflected in the fruits and gifts of the Spirit. This is the 'fruit' we reflect to Glorify Christ. This is only possible by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

[Country Preacher]

CP, read Matt 7 v 13 to 27. The friuts are known as deeds of Christ. As we follow and obey the Word of Christ we conform into His image or character. Jesus' character or image was reflected in the fruits and gifts of the Spirit. This is the 'fruit' we reflect to Glorify Christ. This is only possible by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

And the "good commentary" from which this comes, Fred? You kinda keep neglecting that. Remember, YOU are the one who mentioned the commentary.

PS. While you've got your Bible open to Matt 7, Fred, back up a dozen verses and read that part about "judge not"... and think about how often you violate that by pitching brothers into the antichrist camp. :smile:

[JAYMZ]

Fred,
If I had my arm cut off, cauld I come to you or Benny hinn and get my arm healed ? I believe God can heal any thing that may be wrong, if its his will. Have you ever see arms or legs restored at your church or a Hinn crusade ?

If not, you might want to ask yourself why.

[FredFlanders]

And the "good commentary" from which this comes, Fred? You kinda keep neglecting that. Remember, YOU are the one who mentioned the commentary.
PS. While you've got your Bible open to Matt 7, Fred, back up a dozen verses and read that part about "judge not"... and think about how often you violate that by pitching brothers into the antichrist camp. :smile: I do not understand your first question?
And I do not judge or condemn you. God does in the hope you will get back on track and follow His Word and not false religion.

[FredFlanders]

So in other words when someone who has been shown to be a false prophet makes claims that they've healed someone and that someone doesn't remain healed....you with NO scriptual backing...begin to make excuses for the "prophet"...instead of following Scripture.

Based on this....anyone can do anything as long as they claim it's in the Spirit...and it's all good. If you were putting faith in Jesus...you'd be following the Scripture, not coming up with ways to make your views fit...even if you can't find NT scriptures.Sunshine, read Matt 12 v 43 to 44 and you will get your answer.

[FredFlanders]

Fred,
If I had my arm cut off, cauld I come to you or Benny hinn and get my arm healed ? I believe God can heal any thing that may be wrong, if its his will. Have you ever see arms or legs restored at your church or a Hinn crusade ?
If not, you might want to ask yourself why.No I have not seen arms or legs restored in that manner. I beleive it can happen and if the victim also believes in faith. It is God's will all can be healed. As we grow from faith to faith exercising our faith this can happen. God can do this but we also need to believe this. Remember God does the healing not man. We are only His vessel.

[Obsidian]

Many come to Jesus, get healed, then the enemy tries to snatch away what Jesus has done through deceit like the seed that fell on the path. I would rather put my faith in Jesus than science.

What you really mean is, "I would rather put faith in my perceptions and experiences than in biblical examples or in scientific knowledge." Don't equate Jesus with spiritual experiences. Don't act like an animist; most diseases are not caused by demons. And if your spiritual experiences frequently cause healings which run contrary to biblical example, you should be suspicious.

[Country Preacher]

I do not understand your first question?

In other words, you made up that part about "good commentaries" show.... you thought it would make you sound more credible. :wink: That's OK, Fred, I give up.

And I do not judge or condemn you. God does in the hope you will get back on track and follow His Word and not false religion.No, Fred, God does not condemn me. You do. But you hide behind "the Spirit" to do it. And if anybody challenges you, they are "the enemy". You manipulate "the Spirit" into the most divisive force in Christianity. That is NOT why Jesus gave us "another Comforter".

[eudyptes]

Sunshine, read Matt 12 v 43 to 44 and you will get your answer.

Well..if you want to proof text and such....read up a few verses:

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Hmmm...taking one verse out of context...as you have done...I can make the case no healing is biblical. (I don't hold that position.) Just pointing out grabbing two scriptures that don't mean anything about the topic doesn't prove anything. You even admitted in the post I first answered that there weren't any NT scriptures covering temporary healing.

[JAYMZ]

No I have not seen arms or legs restored in that manner. I beleive it can happen and if the victim also believes in faith. It is God's will all can be healed. As we grow from faith to faith exercising our faith this can happen. God can do this but we also need to believe this. Remember God does the healing not man. We are only His vessel.

Are you saying that every amputee that comes to get healed, doesnt have enough faith to actually get healed ?

It seems in your world God only heals things that cant be verified on the spot. Then when someone checks after a week or so,and they are not really healed, you say they didnt keep their healing because they lost faith or the anointing ?

Convenient.

[FredFlanders]

In other words, you made up that part about "good commentaries" show.... you thought it would make you sound more credible. :wink: That's OK, Fred, I give up.

No, Fred, God does not condemn me. You do. But you hide behind "the Spirit" to do it. And if anybody challenges you, they are "the enemy". You manipulate "the Spirit" into the most divisive force in Christianity. That is NOT why Jesus gave us "another Comforter".What are you talking about when you say 'GOOD COMMENTARIES' ? Are you asking me where I am getting my information from?

[FredFlanders]

What you really mean is, "I would rather put faith in my perceptions and experiences than in biblical examples or in scientific knowledge." Don't equate Jesus with spiritual experiences. Don't act like an animist; most diseases are not caused by demons. And if your spiritual experiences frequently cause healings which run contrary to biblical example, you should be suspicious.Ok O, you want proof and personal experience then seek for the Holy Spirit I am telling you about. That will give you the evidence, just like I experienced.

[FredFlanders]

Well..if you want to proof text and such....read up a few verses:

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Hmmm...taking one verse out of context...as you have done...I can make the case no healing is biblical. (I don't hold that position.) Just pointing out grabbing two scriptures that don't mean anything about the topic doesn't prove anything. You even admitted in the post I first answered that there weren't any NT scriptures covering temporary healing.I was saying that there was no practical example of Jesus or the Apostles doing temparary healings bot there were examples of them not being able to heal at all.

[Country Preacher]

Ok O, you want proof and personal experience then seek for the Holy Spirit I am telling you about. That will give you the evidence, just like I experienced.

Will it also qualify us to talk "super-spiritual like" and condemn brothers and sisters to false prophets, tares, goats and the antichrist, like you said below, just because we disagree with you...

CPharisee, as the Spirit has said, you condemn yourself by putting yourself in with false prophets, tares, goats and the antichrist, all of whom speak against those who manifest the Body of Christ with signs of the Holy Spirit.

Even though you HIDE behind the accusation by blaming it on "the Spirit has said"...

Will it help us to be infallible like you, Fred?
Will it help us to be able to yank verses out of context and use them for our own benefit and define them as suits our needs?
Will it help us to overlook the numerous false prophesies of people like Benny Hinn "because he does miracles"....

Talking to you is useless, Fred, because you are ALWAYS right, and you are ALWAYS "more spiritual" than everybody else. (but I have to admit ... you ARE entertaining)

Yeah, go ahead and "bash" me again, Fred, and blame it on my spiritually depraved condition.

[FredFlanders]

Are you saying that every amputee that comes to get healed, doesnt have enough faith to actually get healed ?

It seems in your world God only heals things that cant be verified on the spot. Then when someone checks after a week or so,and they are not really healed, you say they didnt keep their healing because they lost faith or the anointing ?

Convenient.No J, I have witnessed many healings on the spot but not arms and legs being replaced. I have witnessed the crippled being healed. Paralisis being healed. Short limbs growng to be the same as the other limb.

[FredFlanders]

Will it also qualify us to talk "super-spiritual like" and condemn brothers and sisters to false prophets, tares, goats and the antichrist, like you said below, just because we disagree with you...



Even though you HIDE behind the accusation by blaming it on "the Spirit has said"...

Will it help us to be infallible like you, Fred?
Will it help us to be able to yank verses out of context and use them for our own benefit and define them as suits our needs?
Will it help us to overlook the numerous false prophesies of people like Benny Hinn "because he does miracles"....

Talking to you is useless, Fred, because you are ALWAYS right, and you are ALWAYS "more spiritual" than everybody else. (but I have to admit ... you ARE entertaining)

Yeah, go ahead and "bash" me again, Fred, and blame it on my spiritually depraved condition.CP, for example you told me you can 'speak in tongues' but don't want to, so I gave you a scripture to what God says about a person who does not use the talents his master gives him. God is giving you a wake up call by His written Word so you will have your light shinning at the return of Christ or you will be with the five foolish virgins.

[Country Preacher]

CP, for example you told me you can 'speak in tongues' but don't want to, so I gave you a scripture to what God says about a person who does not use the talents his master gives him. God is giving you a wake up call by His written Word so you will have your light shinning at the return of Christ or you will be with the five foolish virgins.

OH, is THAT what that was all about... see Fred, you speak so "hyperspiritual" that mere earthlings like me have a hard time understanding. NOW I see how you were taking that Scripture out of context to argue something that I didn't actually say! It makes SENSE now!

OK, for the record.. this was part of the experience I had with a bunch of good Christian people at "Agape House" when I was younger. I was "baptized in the Spirit" and spoke in tongues. By all accounts of people who where there, I was "baptized in the Spirit". OK?

But I was troubled at what was going on, and I began to sincerely pray for God to let me know for sure that I was doing the right thing. I can be a blockhead (which is why I like you, Fred, we have a lot in common, unfortunately) so I wanted God to show me VERY CLEARLY.

Well (I already shared this testimony elsewhere) having asked God to let me know "for sure" whether I was involved with something that was "good", I went back to Agape House for our "Tuesday Night Thing". This was a Christian Commune back in the late 60's / early 70's.

We sang a bunch of songs, then the testimonies and prophesies began... and one of the young men who had TWO WEEKS EARLIER been "baptized in the Spirit", and spoke with tongues.... well... he got SAVED!!! Yeah... Baptized in the Spirit one week, then two weeks later "got saved". Everybody was all excited and praising God. I knew right then that this was bogus.

But I can STILL, this very day, do the same "speak in tongues" that I did back then. But I see no need for it. My spiritual life is just fine, Fred. I preach the Gospel, and the Spirit convicts people to be saved - I baptize them according to God's Word - I teach the Word, people grow in Christ... Life is GOOD!

Now, these people I associated with "way back then" were FINE people, and i have no doubt they were sincere. But they quite obviously were confused. Would you agree? Or would you say it's "normal" for somebody to get "baptized in the Spirit" and then get "saved" two weeks later.

[Shadow Phoenix]

OK PF, I have now in post 181.

I saw that. It doesn't answer the question. It just tells me you think I'm ignorant.

[Cowthulu]

C, do you believe that a believer can manifest/operate any gift at any time by word and action?

What do you mean "by word and action"? The believer can only manifest a gift if the Spirit wills it. The believer cannot command the Spirit.

Do you believe that a believer who calls Jesus his Lord follows through with Jesus's commandment of being baptised in water, baptised in the Spirit then follows the Gospel of Christ growing from Faith to Faith?

Believers follow Christs commands yes. Not sure what you mean by Faith to Faith?

Since I answered your questions does that mean you will answer my other 3 questions instead of just posing another question?

No idea what you are getting at here? Are you trying to answer my question from earlier? What scripture verse says we can know whether one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not?



Jesus told us believing is what gives us eternal life in John 3:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A16). Why would you add other steps where Jesus does not?



True, however I still do not see where you can come to the pronouncement of a person's damnation. One could easily see your posts as saying that those who disagree with you are not possessed by the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

OH, is THAT what that was all about... see Fred, you speak so "hyperspiritual" that mere earthlings like me have a hard time understanding. NOW I see how you were taking that Scripture out of context to argue something that I didn't actually say! It makes SENSE now!

OK, for the record.. this was part of the experience I had with a bunch of good Christian people at "Agape House" when I was younger. I was "baptized in the Spirit" and spoke in tongues. By all accounts of people who where there, I was "baptized in the Spirit". OK?

But I was troubled at what was going on, and I began to sincerely pray for God to let me know for sure that I was doing the right thing. I can be a blockhead (which is why I like you, Fred, we have a lot in common, unfortunately) so I wanted God to show me VERY CLEARLY.

Well (I already shared this testimony elsewhere) having asked God to let me know "for sure" whether I was involved with something that was "good", I went back to Agape House for our "Tuesday Night Thing". This was a Christian Commune back in the late 60's / early 70's.

We sang a bunch of songs, then the testimonies and prophesies began... and one of the young men who had TWO WEEKS EARLIER been "baptized in the Spirit", and spoke with tongues.... well... he got SAVED!!! Yeah... Baptized in the Spirit one week, then two weeks later "got saved". Everybody was all excited and praising God. I knew right then that this was bogus.

But I can STILL, this very day, do the same "speak in tongues" that I did back then. But I see no need for it. My spiritual life is just fine, Fred. I preach the Gospel, and the Spirit convicts people to be saved - I baptize them according to God's Word - I teach the Word, people grow in Christ... Life is GOOD!

Now, these people I associated with "way back then" were FINE people, and i have no doubt they were sincere. But they quite obviously were confused. Would you agree? Or would you say it's "normal" for somebody to get "baptized in the Spirit" and then get "saved" two weeks later.I would certainly question why they would say he got saved two weeks after he was baptised in water and the Holy Spirit with the signs following. As far as the Word of God says if we have done that and walking on in the Word of God we are saved. I am concerned ministers are telling believers they are saved and fail to baptise them in water and make sure they recieve the Holy spirit with the signs following. I would also be concerned that a believer did not regularly pray in tongues as this is what builds us up into the nature of Christ . As many believers get mixed up in religious doctrine that takes them away from the true Gospel of Christ.

[Obsidian]

Ok O, you want proof and personal experience then seek for the Holy Spirit I am telling you about. That will give you the evidence, just like I experienced.

Fred, you're obsessed with personal experience and obviously have a low view of scripture in comparison. When people point out to you that temporary healings are most likely unbiblical, you just say, "Well 'pray' for your own spiritistic experiences, and then you will believe in my crazy animistic occultism just like I do!" That's a dumb attitude to have. Christians put their faith in the Bible, not in experiences which can be manipulated by con-artists, emotions, and demons.

[FredFlanders]

Remember, YOU are the one who mentioned the commentary

Where did I mention 'commenatary' I still do not understant what you mean??

[FredFlanders]

What you really mean is, "I would rather put faith in my perceptions and experiences than in biblical examples or in scientific knowledge." Don't equate Jesus with spiritual experiences. Don't act like an animist; most diseases are not caused by demons. And if your spiritual experiences frequently cause healings which run contrary to biblical example, you should be suspicious.

O, we fight against the devil and he will inflict you with sickness by his demons. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[FredFlanders]

Well..if you want to proof text and such....read up a few verses:

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Hmmm...taking one verse out of context...as you have done...I can make the case no healing is biblical. (I don't hold that position.) Just pointing out grabbing two scriptures that don't mean anything about the topic doesn't prove anything. You even admitted in the post I first answered that there weren't any NT scriptures covering temporary healing.

The sign was the same as Jonas. Jesus rose from th dead after three days. This was the proof that Jesus was our redeemer. So we follow all His commandments. His first commandment to His followers was to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. That they did and the Holy spirit came for the first time on the Day of Pentecost. The same experience happens today for those that believe and go and get the Holy Spirit.

[FredFlanders]

Are you saying that every amputee that comes to get healed, doesnt have enough faith to actually get healed ?

It seems in your world God only heals things that cant be verified on the spot. Then when someone checks after a week or so,and they are not really healed, you say they didnt keep their healing because they lost faith or the anointing ?

Convenient.

Many healings are permanent and can be verified on the spot or by doctors.

To your second question the answer is yes. By that I mean many listen to the negatives the enemy feeds their belief in the healing and their confession (words thay speak) take the healing away. A double minded man recieves nothing from the Lord.

[JAYMZ]

Many healings are permanent and can be verified on the spot or by doctors.

To your second question the answer is yes.
Then why cant amputees get healed ?( if nobody ever saw it happen )

[JAYMZ]

Many healings are permanent and can be verified on the spot or by doctors.

To your second question the answer is yes. By that I mean many listen to the negatives the enemy feeds their belief in the healing and their confession (words thay speak) take the healing away. A double minded man recieves nothing from the Lord.

This is a cop out answer.

[FredFlanders]

I saw that. It doesn't answer the question. It just tells me you think I'm ignorant.

PF, you are ignorant of what the Holy Spirit is.

[JAYMZ]

speaking things into reality.

I hate it when occultic ideas infect the church.

[Country Preacher]

PF, you are ignorant of what the Holy Spirit is.

Fred, you are ignorant on WHO the Holy Spirit is.

[FredFlanders]

What do you mean "by word and action"? The believer can only manifest a gift if the Spirit wills it. The believer cannot command the Spirit.



Believers follow Christs commands yes. Not sure what you mean by Faith to Faith?

Since I answered your questions does that mean you will answer my other 3 questions instead of just posing another question?

C, we can command anything that is according to the Word of God by faith. We do this by taking action. For example to heal some one we can lay hands on them and say a pray of healing. God does the healing not us. To pray for some one to receive the Holy Spirit we can lay hands on them and pray with them to receive the Holy Spirit. If they are sincere in there belief to follow Christ, God will fill them with the Holy Spirit and not us. It is our duty to sow and water. This we do of our own accord as we now know the Love of Christ (if you have the Holy Spirit). We do not wait for the spirit to will as the Spirit always wills that we do this. We sow and water and God gives the increase or does the harvesting.

Read the parable of the talent in Matt 25. You will see the Master does not sow as we need to do that of our own accord but the Master gathers the harvest. We do this by useing the gifts and fruits He has given us by the Holy Spirit.

Matt 25 v 24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

As we use the gifts we have faith or confidence in, God gives us more revelation and abilities in the Kingdom of God . This is going from Faith to Faith.

[FredFlanders]

Then why cant amputees get healed ?( if nobody ever saw it happen )

J, do you believe God can heal amputees and all other manner of sickness?

[FredFlanders]

speaking things into reality.

I hate it when occultic ideas infect the church.

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you are ignorant on WHO the Holy Spirit is.

CP Magoo, you are doing a good job leading your flock into the ditch.

[FredFlanders]

Originally posted by Cowthulu
No idea what you are getting at here? Are you trying to answer my question from earlier? What scripture verse says we can know whether one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not?

Mark 16 v 16-18 & 1 Cor 14 v 21-22 will tell us.

Jesus told us believing is what gives us eternal life in John 3:16. Why would you add other steps where Jesus does not?

Yes but to believe you need to do with obedience and follow through and get baptised in water and then filled with the Holy Spirit, then walk in the Holy Spirit. Many say they believe but will not follow through with the Word of God and that will not save them. I have not added any steps John 3 v 5 will tell you that you have to be Born of Water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus also said this in Mark 16 v 16-18. And Peter in Acts 2 v 38-39.

True, however I still do not see where you can come to the pronouncement of a person's damnation. One could easily see your posts as saying that those who disagree with you are not possessed by the Holy Spirit.

If they had the Holy Spirit they would know they had access to all the gifts of the Spirit. As they speak against the gifts esspecially the enitial gift of being able to speak in tongues this is a sure sign they do not have the Holy Spirit ot they have fallen away.

[Country Preacher]

CP Magoo, you are doing a good job leading your flock into the ditch.

You are a self-righteous sheep beater, Fred, so full of your own self. You are a spiritually confused bully.

[Shadow Phoenix]

PF, you are ignorant of what the Holy Spirit is.

Calling me ignornat is just cheap FF. You got the guts and/or answers to back it or not?

[Sparko]

The sign was the same as Jonas.

read the bible much, flan?

Who is Jonas?

[Cowthulu]

Originally posted by Cowthulu
No idea what you are getting at here? Are you trying to answer my question from earlier? What scripture verse says we can know whether one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not?

Mark 16 v 16-18 & 1 Cor 14 v 21-22 will tell us.

Mark 16:9-20 were not part of the 1st century church. Using these very questionable verses to form some kind theological indication of another person's salvation is very dangerous.

1 Corinthians tells rules for speaking in tongues and prophesying. It does not say one must speak in tongues to be saved.

Again, all believers can through the power of the Holy Spirit speak in tongues, but there is no reliable scriptural evidence to say believers MUST speak in tongues.

Jesus told us believing is what gives us eternal life in John 3:16. Why would you add other steps where Jesus does not?

Yes but to believe you need to do with obedience and follow through and get baptised in water and then filled with the Holy Spirit, then walk in the Holy Spirit. Many say they believe but will not follow through with the Word of God and that will not save them. I have not added any steps John 3 v 5 will tell you that you have to be Born of Water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus also said this in Mark 16 v 16-18. And Peter in Acts 2 v 38-39.

Believers are called to be Baptized, but it is not a work one must do to be saved. Being dunked doesn't save you, Faith saves (Ephesians 2:8-9). One with Faith will be baptized, but Baptism does not save them.

Again you are using Mark 16 passages which are most likely not reliable and poor choices for any doctrine.

True, however I still do not see where you can come to the pronouncement of a person's damnation. One could easily see your posts as saying that those who disagree with you are not possessed by the Holy Spirit.

If they had the Holy Spirit they would know they had access to all the gifts of the Spirit. As they speak against the gifts esspecially the enitial gift of being able to speak in tongues this is a sure sign they do not have the Holy Spirit ot they have fallen away.

Speak against the gift how? I haven't seen anyone say that Believers can't speak in tongues. It simply not necessary that all believer MUST speak in tongues to be saved.

[Country Preacher]

Calling me ignornat is just cheap FF. You got the guts and/or answers to back it or not?

(Fred is a girlyman - when he gets stumped, he calls names and makes accusations... i'm trying to be more like him so he'll understand me better)

[JAYMZ]

J, do you believe God can heal amputees and all other manner of sickness?
Yes Fred, I believe God can even raise the whole body, if its his will.

Are amputees not allowed to enter into Hinn crusades ? What is the reason you never see REAL healings that nobody can deny; ones where there is no question on what actually happened.

I think you know the point im trying to make with all this.

[FredFlanders]

You are a self-righteous sheep beater, Fred, so full of your own self. You are a spiritually confused bully.

CP, I love you so much. You give me so many blessings by your persecutions.

[FredFlanders]

Calling me ignornat is just cheap FF. You got the guts and/or answers to back it or not?

PF, you and CP just make my day. You give me so many blessings.

God Bless you both.

[FredFlanders]

read the bible much, flan?

Who is Jonas?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This was the sign Jesus was our redeemer and we were to follow ALL His Word.
Did you know that Sparko?

[FredFlanders]

Mark 16:9-20 were not part of the 1st century church. Using these very questionable verses to form some kind theological indication of another person's salvation is very dangerous.

1 Corinthians tells rules for speaking in tongues and prophesying. It does not say one must speak in tongues to be saved.

Again, all believers can through the power of the Holy Spirit speak in tongues, but there is no reliable scriptural evidence to say believers MUST speak in tongues.



Believers are called to be Baptized, but it is not a work one must do to be saved. Being dunked doesn't save you, Faith saves (Ephesians 2:8-9). One with Faith will be baptized, but Baptism does not save them.

Again you are using Mark 16 passages which are most likely not reliable and poor choices for any doctrine.



Speak against the gift how? I haven't seen anyone say that Believers can't speak in tongues. It simply not necessary that all believer MUST speak in tongues to be saved.
C,

All Mark 16 fits with the rest of the Bible.

All the Corinthians “spoke in Tongues” and so did the rest of the NT Church.

Can you show me an example in the scriptures where Christians did not have the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues after the promise was given?

There are plenty of scriptures that show us believers “Speak in Tongues” God is a Spirit and we MUST worship Him in the SPIRIT and Truth.

Corinthians tell us that people with other tongues would minister the Gospel. And that tongues was a sign to the unbeliever.

Yes all believers can speak in tongues and do unless they have been caught up in false religion.

If you claim to follow Christ then we obey His Word. Are you saying that it is OK to say you follow Christ and not get Baptized in water then the Holy Spirit? Do we call Christ Lord, Lord and the not do the things He has told us?

Speaking in tongues will not save you. There are plenty that speak in tongues who will not be saved with the Saints and they will be the ones who fell away and did not continue in the Full Gospel of Christ, growing and conforming them selves into the fullness of Christ/the Word.

Read the post carefully and you will see those that reject speaking in tongues.

[FredFlanders]

(Fred is a girlyman - when he gets stumped, he calls names and makes accusations... i'm trying to be more like him so he'll understand me better)

CP, even I think that is funny. :lol::rcarrot: :b_baby:
:b_unripe: :pineapple:
:b_angel: :b_evil:
:orange: :b_dance:
:b_cowboy: :b_rotten:
:not_ripe: :mango:
:b_lame: :b_cyclps:
:g_apple: :b_woot:
:cuc_wave: :b_hop:
:b_stomp

[Country Preacher]

CP, even I think that is funny. :lol::rcarrot: :b_baby:



You have a sense of humor? For REAL?

[FredFlanders]

Yes Fred, I believe God can even raise the whole body, if its his will.

Are amputees not allowed to enter into Hinn crusades ? What is the reason you never see REAL healings that nobody can deny; ones where there is no question on what actually happened.

I think you know the point im trying to make with all this.

J,

God wills that we all get healed but by our own lack of Faith we don't all get healed. My Faith is not perfect but as I grow in Christ so do my abilities/skills/wisdom does. We are told that we are sick and die because of our lack of knowledge. As we grow in knowledge so does our abilities/skills/wisdom in Christ does.

A long time ago I went to one BH Crusade and many got out wheel chairs and walked. Some of them had been to many crusades before and had not got their healing yet. Some times we need to be in the place (heart) with God before the healing takes place. Any one can go to BH Crusades even if you are missing a limb.

I do not have any problem that genuine healings take place at BH Crusades because I have experienced this power before in my own experiences with God. I cannot criticize BH because a leg or arm has not grown back in his crusades nor I have not seen this any where, not to say God cannot do this.

[Country Preacher]

CP, I love you so much. You give me so many blessings by your persecutions.

It's really sad, Fred, that you think the little bit of grief you get on TWeb qualifies as persecution. This is an incredible insult to the Christians of the world who are truly dealing with torture and death. You can play your silly little games and think that somehow God blesses you because somebody thinks you're a nutcase.

Check out http://www.persecution.com/ to see what real persecution is, Fred. Once again, you demonstrate your extreme self-centeredness in claiming a "blessing" just because you're a wacko.

Oh, and your "love" is a bit warped, as well. Sure doesn't sound like agape to me! :smile:

Blessings! :wink: (Hey, wait, you called me antichrist, so i guess I am REALLY blessed!)

[Cowthulu]

C,

All Mark 16 fits with the rest of the Bible.

That is extremely debatable for 9-20. The entire tone of it changes at verse 9. If the 1st century church didn't have it or use it then it is unreliable at best.

All the Corinthians “spoke in Tongues” and so did the rest of the NT Church.

I see no such reason in the text to make that inference. It shows that all CAN speak in tongues, but does not say all WILL.

Can you show me an example in the scriptures where Christians did not have the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues after the promise was given?

There are plenty of scriptures that show us believers “Speak in Tongues” God is a Spirit and we MUST worship Him in the SPIRIT and Truth.

Corinthians tell us that people with other tongues would minister the Gospel. And that tongues was a sign to the unbeliever.

Yes all believers can speak in tongues and do unless they have been caught up in false religion.

I cannot agree with you that they WILL speak in tongues. Yes they are capable, but saying they MUST is not supported by scripture.

If you claim to follow Christ then we obey His Word. Are you saying that it is OK to say you follow Christ and not get Baptized in water then the Holy Spirit? Do we call Christ Lord, Lord and the not do the things He has told us?

Speaking in tongues will not save you. There are plenty that speak in tongues who will not be saved with the Saints and they will be the ones who fell away and did not continue in the Full Gospel of Christ, growing and conforming them selves into the fullness of Christ/the Word.

Read the post carefully and you will see those that reject speaking in tongues.

I have read fairly carefully. Perhaps you can point to somewhere this is occurring?

[Sparko]

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This was the sign Jesus was our redeemer and we were to follow ALL His Word.
Did you know that Sparko?


Gee I thought that was JoNAH?

[Shadow Phoenix]

PF, you and CP just make my day. You give me so many blessings.

God Bless you both.

The Jehovah's Witnesess and Mormons also claim persecution. Persecution does not mean you are on the right path.

Get over yourself. You're giving DJ competition.

[Sparko]

well if persecution means someone is right with God, then we are all saved because Flanders has done nothing BUT persecute anyone who disagrees with him. He even called CP the antichrist!

[Obsidian]

Cowthulu, don't listen to his madness. The Bible never says that all Christians can speak in tongues, in Corinth or anywhere else.

[Cowthulu]

Cowthulu, don't listen to his madness. The Bible never says that all Christians can speak in tongues, in Corinth or anywhere else.

The Holy Spirit can surely let any believer speak in tongues, but it does not necessarily mean it will. There is a big difference between "can" and "will". I agree that speaking it tongues is not required to be saved, but I would disagree in saying a believer cannot (as in is completely incapable of) speak in tongues.

[Shadow Phoenix]

The Holy Spirit can surely let any believer speak in tongues, but it does not necessarily mean it will. There is a big difference between "can" and "will". I agree that speaking it tongues is not required to be saved, but I would disagree in saying a believer cannot (as in is completely incapable of) speak in tongues.

Just a slight correction. "He" will.

[Pilgrim]

or "she" since spirit is with out gender by definition.

[JAYMZ]

J,

God wills that we all get healed but by our own lack of Faith we don't all get healed. My Faith is not perfect but as I grow in Christ so do my abilities/skills/wisdom does. We are told that we are sick and die because of our lack of knowledge. As we grow in knowledge so does our abilities/skills/wisdom in Christ does.

A long time ago I went to one BH Crusade and many got out wheel chairs and walked. Some of them had been to many crusades before and had not got their healing yet. Some times we need to be in the place (heart) with God before the healing takes place. Any one can go to BH Crusades even if you are missing a limb.

I do not have any problem that genuine healings take place at BH Crusades because I have experienced this power before in my own experiences with God. I cannot criticize BH because a leg or arm has not grown back in his crusades nor I have not seen this any where, not to say God cannot do this.
It must not be not be Gods will that every one is healed because not every one is healed. Saying its because of a lack of faith is a cop out answer. The people must have faith or they wouldnt seek God or his " healers " in the first place. Im really disgusted when hyper-pentecostals place the blame on the people for their " lack of faith." You are truly blinded by your theological bias.

" Abilities." " Skills." It sounds more like your training to be a jedi over christianity.

[FredFlanders]

It's really sad, Fred, that you think the little bit of grief you get on TWeb qualifies as persecution. This is an incredible insult to the Christians of the world who are truly dealing with torture and death. You can play your silly little games and think that somehow God blesses you because somebody thinks you're a nutcase.

Check out http://www.persecution.com/ to see what real persecution is, Fred. Once again, you demonstrate your extreme self-centeredness in claiming a "blessing" just because you're a wacko.

Oh, and your "love" is a bit warped, as well. Sure doesn't sound like agape to me! :smile:

Blessings! :wink: (Hey, wait, you called me antichrist, so i guess I am REALLY blessed!)

CP, thanks for blessing my day again. You are so kind to me. You must like Girlymen.

[FredFlanders]

That is extremely debatable for 9-20. The entire tone of it changes at verse 9. If the 1st century church didn't have it or use it then it is unreliable at best.

Yes it did C. This is the doctrine the Apostles followed. When the Jews saw this event on the Day of Pentecost they asked Peter; “what shall we do? And this was a promise to you’re your children and to all afar off.
Acts 2 v 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

I see no such reason in the text to make that inference. It shows that all CAN speak in tongues, but does not say all WILL.

Paul told the Corintians not to ALL pray in tongues a once. So they could ALL speak in tongues.
1 Cor 14 v 23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

I cannot agree with you that they WILL speak in tongues. Yes they are capable, but saying they MUST is not supported by scripture.

John 4 v 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1 Cor 14 v 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Perhaps you can point to somewhere this is occurring?

Phoenix Fawkes, Sparko and Obsidian are three that are confused on this issue as they do not believe. Post 240 is typical of what is said.

Now C, you missed the questions I asked? If you claim to follow Christ then we obey His Word. Are you saying that it is OK to say you follow Christ and not get Baptized in water then the Holy Spirit? Do we call Christ Lord, Lord and the not do the things He has told us to do?

[FredFlanders]

Gee I thought that was JoNAH?

Have a look at some other Bible translations?

[Shadow Phoenix]

I'm so thankful I became a Christian before I met someone like Fred. Someone that self-righteous would have made me want nothing to do with it.

[FredFlanders]

The Jehovah's Witnesess and Mormons also claim persecution. Persecution does not mean you are on the right path.

Get over yourself. You're giving DJ competition.

JW's, M's are ignorant just like you PF, thinking they have the Holy Spirit but don't. Now you know what I meant when I said you can beforgiven for your ignorace if you repent. You only know Christ the man. But you donot know Christ by the Holy Spirit as yet.

[FredFlanders]

The Jehovah's Witnesess and Mormons also claim persecution. Persecution does not mean you are on the right path.

Get over yourself. You're giving DJ competition.

And who is DJ??? He may make my day one way or another.