What does "I believe in Jesus" mean?

[IncRus]

Do people who say "I believe in Jesus" truly believe Jesus? Does accepting Jesus as "Lord and Savior" prove that one truly "believes in Jesus?"

[gharfish]

.....trust in and rely, solely, on...take Him at His word...believe He can and will do what He promises (?) Cling to Him and obey His gospel (salvation plan). How about that/these (?)


>

[RBerman]

.....trust in and rely, solely, on...take Him at His word...believe He can and will do what He promises (?) Cling to Him and obey His gospel (salvation plan). How about that/these (?)>
Indeed, obey him in all things.

[Obsidian]

Trust him to guarantee you eternal life

[barnasha]

Do people who say "I believe in Jesus" truly believe Jesus? Does accepting Jesus as "Lord and Savior" prove that one truly "believes in Jesus?"

it's a really good question worth exploration

one point i can make after reading your post is that "believe" and "believe in" have different connotations...

my understand and use of the concept of "Belief", is that "belief" is like a false idol, and is knowledge based, whereas faith is not.

"belief" (in the dogmatic sense) brings death, but faith brings life

[gharfish]

Building on what I had said; and so to be surely forgiven of your sins !


>

[JAYMZ]

There is believing Jesus was a historical figure and there is putting your faith and trust in his life, death, and resurrection.

[barnasha]

no, you can 'believe what jesus says', i.e. 'believe jesus', and 'have faith in what he says', there is a difference... one puts emphasis on your dogma, the other puts emphasis on your heart.

[Obsidian]

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.


To those of you who are trying to make "belief" a difficult, arduous thing, you should look at the precedents from scripture. Jesus compared himself to the bronze serpent. The people getting healed by the bronze serpent didn't have to show love or commit themselves to a life of obedience or put full trust in all the laws of Moses. They just had to look up at the snake and they were healed. With Jesus, I think it's pretty similar. Salvation is a gift, not a reward.

[Spartacus]

"I am a gullible stooge"

:wink:

Feel free to quote me on that.

[Pilgrim]

I think perhaps the OP betrays a confusion between believing "about" Jesus and believing "in" Jesus.

[NormATive]

Do people who say "I believe in Jesus" truly believe Jesus?

I guess it depends on how much of what Jesus said one takes to heart. Like loving your neighbor as yourself.

Not much of that going on these days.

Does accepting Jesus as "Lord and Savior" prove that one truly "believes in Jesus?"

No.

NORM

[IncRus]

I once said to my father, "I believe you are the greatest father, I have faith in you that you will never say nor do anything to harm me, and I trust you to give your life for me, if need be.

However, I DON'T believe and will NOT obey everything you say.

Did I truly "believe in" or "bel;ieve" my father?

[Bernie]

To those of you who are trying to make "belief" a difficult, arduous thing, you should look at the precedents from scripture. Jesus compared himself to the bronze serpent. The people getting healed by the bronze serpent didn't have to show love or commit themselves to a life of obedience or put full trust in all the laws of Moses. They just had to look up at the snake and they were healed. With Jesus, I think it's pretty similar. Salvation is a gift, not a reward.
At the same time, many have deconstructed faith to a simple 'blab-it-n-grab-it' belief. I think it's more complicated. I believe all who claim even the most superficial belief in Christ will be saved in time. I base this partly on Jesus words in Mat 3:7: "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?", and partly on His pure grace nature. What Jesus didn't say in the verse is more important imo than what He says here; He didn't deny that their conformity sealed their salvation, but asked (as He so often does) a question designed to make the listeners (and future readers) think: who did warn them to get this baptism John was offering? Something in their spirit urged them into the water, despite the superficiality of their act.

Once a member of the body in the acceptance of simple belief, the rest of one's life determines how one will be saved. We can participate with Christ's call to submit to sanctification of the soul, resulting in faith, or like the lazy grashopper, turn attention back to the attractions of the world. Since it depends on Christ's faithfulness and not ours..."If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself." (2Tim 2:13)....many of the warnings in Scripture are not eternal in nature, but pertain to our attention to sanctification in time. The claim on Christ's blood results in assurance that faith will be established in the individual before time expires, and if one does not participate in his sanctification the easy way, the Lord will jealously bring the cleansing and purification necessary late in life such that the claimant finds faith before breathing his last:
14 "I have kept silent for a long time, I have kept still and restrained Myself. Now like a woman in labor I will groan, I will both gasp and pant.
15 "I will lay waste the mountains and hills, And wither all their vegetation; I will make the rivers into coastlands, And dry up the ponds.
"And I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone. They shall be turned back and be utterly put to shame, Who trust in idols, Who say to molten images, "You are our gods." Hear, you deaf! And look, you blind, that you may see. Who is blind but My servant, Or so deaf as My messenger whom I send? Who is so blind as he that is at peace with Me, Or so blind as the servant of the LORD?" (Isa 42:14-19)

As many did in earlier times, I see a direct correlation between suffering and purification, and suspect that the suffering endured by many in old age masks this refinement to final faith. Think about it; if one suffers enough, the will to cling to life is eventually worn down, and all that remains is to finally enter into His rest with pure acceptance. As all Scripture consistently warns us, there's always the hard way and the easy way.

[Obsidian]

@Bernie

Pretty good analysis


@IncRus

However, I DON'T believe and will NOT obey everything you say.
Did I truly "believe in" or "bel;ieve" my father?

By this (inaccurate) definition of belief you're implying, no one believes in Jesus.

[NormATive]

The claim on Christ's blood results in assurance that faith will be established in the individual before time expires, and if one does not participate in his sanctification the easy way, the Lord will jealously bring the cleansing and purification necessary late in life such that the claimant finds faith before breathing his last:

Although I do not share the obsession with Jesus' "blood,"I believe universalism to be true. However, it is not what the Bible teaches from my examinations unless you dump a few books of the New Testament.

NORM

[FredFlanders]

Do people who say "I believe in Jesus" truly believe Jesus? Does accepting Jesus as "Lord and Savior" prove that one truly "believes in Jesus?"

Good question I,

The answer is simple. Unconditional Faith and obedience in the Full Gospel of Christ.

[Spartacus]

Good question I,

The answer is simple. Unconditional Faith and obedience in the Full Gospel of Christ.

Which is defined as...

[FredFlanders]

Which is defined as...

Repentance, Baptism in Water, being Filled with the Holy Spirit, then being led by the Holy Spirit into the the Truth of the Gospel of Christ.

God is a Spirit and we must Worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

[IncRus]

I think perhaps the OP betrays a confusion between believing "about" Jesus and believing "in" Jesus.
You are correct. A lot of people believe a lot of things "about" Jesus but don't truly believe "in" Jesus.

A lot of people say that believing "in" Jesus means believing that he is the Son of God, that he is our Lord and savior, that he died on the cross and rose again on the third day, that he is the second person of the holy trinity, etc.

However, these same people do NOT truly believe "in" Jesus and do NOT do the things that Jesus says. Thus, to them Jesus says, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do NOT do the things I say?" (Luke 6:46).

[IncRus]

no, you can 'believe what jesus says', i.e. 'believe jesus', and 'have faith in what he says', there is a difference... one puts emphasis on your dogma, the other puts emphasis on your heart.
I agree. Believing "in" Jesus means having faith and trust in what he says and "believing Jesus" means believing and obeying what Jesus says. One who professes "belief in Jesus" does not necessarily "believe Jesus." On the other hand, one who "believes and obeys what Jesus says" is one who truly "belives in Jesus."

[NormATive]

I agree. Believing "in" Jesus means having faith and trust in what he says and "believing Jesus" means believing and obeying what Jesus says. One who professes "belief in Jesus" does not necessarily "believe Jesus." On the other hand, one who "believes and obeys what Jesus says" is one who truly "belives in Jesus."

I think you have touched on something I have thought for some time now. It is my belief that Jesus was a disciple of HIllel who taught that the Law was something beyond the mere rote practice of it, and was rather a philosophy with which one embraced to the very depth of one's being.

NORM

[UrbanMonk]

Do people who say "I believe in Jesus" truly believe Jesus? Does accepting Jesus as "Lord and Savior" prove that one truly "believes in Jesus?"

No. It only means that you have accepted the word of what others tell you how you ought to behave as subject to the god of Israel...an idol. These "others" constitute an informal neo-Levitical "royal priesthood"...a neo-orthodoxy. Believing and understanding are not always the same thing.

[UrbanMonk]

Building on what I had said; and so to be surely forgiven of your sins !
>

Good example of how we are tricked into believing what others say about Jesus...in the name of believing in Jesus.

Jesus taught some lofty principles which required the listener to challenge his current belief system. But belief, in and of itself, is not salvific. Believing in the truth is better. Understanding the truth is better yet. For example, he said things like, "The Kingdom of God is within you". We can believe this all we want, but unless we begin to understand it, we may well be believing in our own interpretation of what Jesus asked us to believe.

[barnasha]

Good example of how we are tricked into believing what others say about Jesus...in the name of believing in Jesus.

Jesus taught some lofty principles which required the listener to challenge his current belief system. But belief, in and of itself, is not salvific. Believing in the truth is better. Understanding the truth is better yet. For example, he said things like, "The Kingdom of God is within you". We can believe this all we want, but unless we begin to understand it, we may well be believing in our own interpretation of what Jesus asked us to believe.

The truth has no need for a "belief".

it it better to rid one's mind of the unacknowledged false dichotomy of 'what i believe to be true' versus the truth, which is implicitly created once someone has a 'belief'.

One thing is important, when it comes to psycho-spiritual orientation: "stick to the facts"

Only this can lead to a purity of the soul and psyche, because one can resolve one's self with truth rather than try to mimic it with a dogmatic, logical, and partial understanding of what is implicitly chaotic, vast, and beyond one's full comprehension,

[popaface]

To "believe in Jesus" in this culture tends to be about believing in a mythic figure (not a non-existing figure), that intervenes in ones life when petitioned, regulates ones life towards a social and political conservativism and has orientated said entire meaning and purpose towards the individual. To "believe in Jesus" is to primarily love oneself and seek a social system which marginalizes against the values which are not expressed by social and political conservatives.

Allan

[Obsidian]

to all you legalists in here...

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."


Notice that Jesus did not correct her and say, "NO MARTHA, You only 'believe' me when you do everything I say!"

[FredFlanders]

to all you legalists in here...

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."


Notice that Jesus did not correct her and say, "NO MARTHA, You only 'believe' me when you do everything I say!"That's good O, but one thing you all leave out is God is a Spirit and we must Worship Him in Spirit and Truth. When I pray in tongues my Spirit prayeth. This is the only way to Worship God in the Spirit.

[Obsidian]

Fred, you should remember that Jesus does not say, "God so loved the world that he sent his Son, that whoever worships him should have eternal life."

[popaface]

to all you legalists in here...

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."


Notice that Jesus did not correct her and say, "NO MARTHA, You only 'believe' me when you do everything I say!"

There's another motif happening here. It's not a question of "belief" in a set of propositions or a person (in the vague sense of the word) - rather John places life and death as governing factors in John's spiritual commentary on following Jesus in discipleship (as another motif and most probably the best description of "belief" in the Gospel of John) and not following Jesus.

If someone follows Jesus then even in their death they have more life than those that do not follow Jesus. This is obviously a spiritual truth not a literal truth and it is exemplified in the story with Jesus' raising Lazareth from the dead. The point of the story however is not about purely believing in Jesus to be raised in the last day, it is a serious and concrete binary or duality (John loves those: life-death, light-darkness, et al.) between those who follow Jesus and those who do not.

Allan

[Obsidian]

Jesus states plainly that those who believe in him will have eternal life. Then he asks her if she believes. She says, "Yes." The obvious implication is that she has satisfied his condition for eternal life. The passage pretty much debunks the whole belief=works-of-righteous idea.

[barnasha]

I think that's the most shallow interpretation possible of what was being said.

In Jesus's language, and in greek, does the word believe have an implication of dogmatic acceptance or one of having faith in one's heart?

In English at least, it is ambiguous to simply say 'believe'. Hence this thread :>

[Obsidian]

In Jesus's language, and in greek, does the word believe have an implication of dogmatic acceptance or one of having faith in one's heart?


You're making a distinction based on English pop psychology. What makes you think they even distinguished "heart faith" from "head faith"? I personally think those two phrases are artificial. You either believe something (with your mind) or you don't. There is no believing in your heart. That's just a legalist trap we've come up with to make people worry about hell. Notice that Jesus did not say, "Yes, Martha I know you believe in your head...but do you truly believe in your heart?" That would be ridiculous to say that, and Jesus isn't ridiculous.

[barnasha]

You're making a distinction based on English pop psychology. What makes you think they even distinguished "heart faith" from "head faith"? I personally think those two phrases are artificial. You either believe something (with your mind) or you don't. There is no believing in your heart. That's just a legalist trap we've come up with to make people worry about hell. Notice that Jesus did not say, "Yes, Martha I know you believe in your head...but do you truly believe in your heart?" That would be ridiculous to say that, and Jesus isn't ridiculous.

I could just as easily say you're thinking of everything in terms of English language. Belief in English has several meanings, including those I've listed. Check any reputable dictionary if you don't "believe" me.

[UrbanMonk]

Does accepting Jesus as "Lord and Savior" prove that one truly "believes in Jesus?"

If you believed that YOU are a LORD and SAVIOR...then you would be believing in Jesus...yes. Because, this is what Jesus believed about himSelf, and what he asked others to believe...ABOUT THEMSELVES. Unless we believe this about ourSelf, we will not be saved as Jesus was saved. What are we then saved from? We are saved from the judgements we have placed upon the Son of God...and therefore, upon ourSelf. Our judgements have belittled the Son of God, making him into a slave unsavable and unsaving...weak, worthless. We must overcome this attitude if we would be saved. Jesus overcame, and in overcoming, set an example of how to overcome. The example is largely ignored in favor of another kind of slavery...another kind of groveling at the feet of a buyer.

What people believe about themselves IS WHAT THEY BELIEVE ABOUT THE SON OF GOD.

[barnasha]

If you believed that YOU are a LORD and SAVIOR...then you would be believing in Jesus...yes. Because, this is what Jesus believed about himSelf, and what he asked others to believe...ABOUT THEMSELVES. Unless we believe this about ourSelf, we will not be saved as Jesus was saved. What are we then saved from? We are saved from the judgements we have placed upon the Son of God...and therefore, upon ourSelf. Our judgements have belittled the Son of God, making him into a slave unsavable and unsaving...weak, worthless. We must overcome this attitude if we would be saved. Jesus overcame, and in overcoming, set an example of how to overcome. The example is largely ignored in favor of another kind of slavery...another kind of groveling at the feet of a buyer.

What people believe about themselves IS WHAT THEY BELIEVE ABOUT THE SON OF GOD.


"anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
--- Jesus




it means you are not saved because Jesus did it... you are saved because you did it

[Obsidian]

The Bible doesn't say you have to be "worthy" of him to be saved by him.

[Littlejoe9763]

I think that's the most shallow interpretation possible of what was being said.

In Jesus's language, and in greek, does the word believe have an implication of dogmatic acceptance or one of having faith in one's heart?

In English at least, it is ambiguous to simply say 'believe'. Hence this thread :>
Not really. This thread is because IncRus doesn't believe Jesus was God, and that in order to have salvation through Christ, you must FIRST join his Church - INC - (Iglesia ni Cristo) and THEN be perfect and do all the works to earn your way into heaven. Belief to him (IncRus) is believing that Christ established HIS Church in the INC and only through belief in that Church can you be saved....if you do enough good works...

LJ

[Obsidian]

lol

[FredFlanders]

Fred, you should remember that Jesus does not say, "God so loved the world that he sent his Son, that whoever worships him should have eternal life."

But O, doesn’t believing in Jesus encompass all of the Gospel of Christ in believing and doing. Was that not Jesus’ message to Martha?

John 4 v 23 Jesus said "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

[barnasha]

The Bible doesn't say you have to be "worthy" of him to be saved by him.


Correct.

Jesus purportedly said it. Check the bible

[Obsidian]

But O, doesn’t believing in Jesus encompass all of the Gospel of Christ in believing and doing. Was that not Jesus’ message to Martha?

If that were Jesus's message to Martha, then he was certainly asking it in a bizarre way. He asked her if she "believe[d] this." And then when she said "Yes!," he certainly didn't rebuke her for her arrogance or her lack of perfection. And we should remember that Martha presumably didn't even have the Holy Spirit at that point, because it was before Pentacost. So no, I don't think that was Jesus's message to Martha at all.

In fact, one might even argue that he says exactly the opposite. He seems to distinguish between simply believing in him (for eternal life following death) versus living and believing in him (for no death at all). It may just be a figure of speech, though.

Jesus purportedly said it. Check the bible

No he didn't. Re-read the verse you posted.

[popaface]

Why did no one take into account what I said... I completely debunked the idea that John's "believe" is a simple fuzzy word, Obsidian and Barnasha.

"Belief" according to John was more about discipleship, committment, lifestyle, participating in the sacraments, etc. The entire Johannine motif of what a "Christian" looks like. One can't just take this one single word outside of the context of the entire Johannine motif. It makes no sense.

Do try to take into account what I say - I have actually studied this at uni for the past 4 years.

Allan

[UrbanMonk]

The Bible doesn't say you have to be "worthy" of him to be saved by him.

We must make ourselves "ready". We are ready when we understand/accept we are worthy...to be the Son of God. Otherwise, we are just expressing false humility...low self esteem. The son of man (mankind) is the Son of God, thinking himself unworthy of his own inheritance.

[Obsidian]

All you did was offer assertions, popaface. You didn't debunk anything. The passage I cited pretty clearly suggests that my view is accurate.

[popaface]

All you did was offer assertions, popaface. You didn't debunk anything. The passage I cited pretty clearly suggests that my view is accurate.

I offered a clear lens which takes into account all of the Gospel of John, the structure of the narratives, the clear motifs, the presentation of the characters, et al., in order to place this one single saying into a wider narrative context. If you don't like the word context - I couldn't care any less, but questioning exactly what a passage is saying by looking at it with an already constructed matrix is not going to offer you any insight into anything. Use your noggin, good sir. Proof texts are not what the Gospels are, they are story. The authors sat down and said thought, "I'm going to write a story for my community about who this Jesus was and what it means for us." not "I'm going to write a selection of sayings which I expect people to take purely at face value without delving into my story."

I'll offer this criticism in a much more haughty light - if you're reading the Gospel and hearing your voice, you have actually understood your own voice as that of the Bible. Good stuff.

Allan