Was Judas predestined to betray Christ?

[stephen goswami]

Certainly there is predestination. Hindu Indians make horoscope at birth and it comes true. I witness that truth though I was brought up in an atheist educated Hindu family. It happens because we are a degenerate heaven-fallen people. (Please take time to read my posts). When we are born here the stars representing demigods (devils to which we sold ourselves while in that degenerated heaven) plots our destiny.
But that horoscope is cancelled when one submits himself to Christ. In such cases horoscope’s tragedies never happen. I witness to that also.
Yes, Judas was destined to betray Christ that way. It would have been cancelled if Judas really submitted to Christ, but he never did. Majority people want Christ to be used for their interests, not to be used by him. So their predestination is never cancelled.

[timspong]

Are we able to break away from the destiny prescribed by the "demigods" under our own volition? If so then it is not much of a destiny. If not then how exactly are we able to do it?

[Taran Wanderer]

It happens because we are a degenerate heaven-fallen people. ... When we are born here the stars representing demigods (devils to which we sold ourselves while in that degenerated heaven) plots our destiny.
So are you saying our souls existed before our birth? If so, why do you say that? It's not a typical Christian belief, as far as I know.

[Jnthn]

Judas chose to betray Christ. Judas was no more a puppet of some fore-written script than you or I. Judas' actions were foreknown, but not predestined.

J

[UrbanMonk]

First of all, Jesus knew too much to be "betrayed". He even suggested Judas go and do what he thought he wanted/needed to do. So, Jesus was not betrayed. He could have walked right out of that situation. Rather, he volunteered to endure whatever was forthcoming. At best, the Judas scenario is a parody of a betrayal.

If Jesus is a metaphor for the Son of God, then we need to ask how the Son of God was betrayed. I'm saying that the Son of God is betrayed by the "prodigal Son"...who wanted to be separate, different and special. This leads to an unpleasant experience which we could call "hell" or "crucifixion". Note well: The experience of the prodigal Son was VOLUNTARY...just as was Jesus experience of the crucifixion. The Son of God comes from a realm of equals. The prodigal Son goes to a realm of unequals, where each one is different, and therefor special. This sets up a heirarchical "kingdom" of his own...which results in all the sufferings the world has ever known. The world, then, is "Christ crucified"....betrayed by the desire to be different and special.

As this plays out, it may indeed be executed the way suggested by the OP. This is an example of the mechanism of crucifixion...how pre-existent souls are pre-destined for a life of hardship. A life of hardship is crucifixion. And everybody is carrying a cross. Thus, we have all died with Christ. The question is, will we now rise with Christ? The OP addresses this as well. When we let Christ work through us, we are taken off the prescripted life of hardship that had been scheduled for us. When we let Christ work through us, we are stepping now toward the resurrection, away from crucifixion. Judas played a prescripted role. If understood correctly, we can decide no longer to be special. This means we can no longer decide to be the "son of man" and be the Son of God...which is the truth. The Son of God is NOT special. Being the Son of God is the only way we can all be THE SAME...EQUALS...AGAIN.

[timspong]

Judas chose to betray Christ. Judas was no more a puppet of some fore-written script than you or I. Judas' actions were foreknown, but not predestined.

J


Given John 6, what would you say the difference is in foreknowledge and predestination?

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)" (John 6:64)

Also, if Judas had not betrayed Jesus and he had not died on the cross, how would our sins be atoned for? Was this not something that had to happen and thus is predestined to happen?

[Bosco]

Are we able to break away from the destiny prescribed by the "demigods" under our own volition? If so then it is not much of a destiny. If not then how exactly are we able to do it?

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Yehoshua.

The prophecy which Judas fulfilled is found in Psalm 69.

I have sat back and watched the predestination/free will arguement for years. If not that it divides brethren, I would find it amusing! Neither side will back down long enough to see the obvious... BOTH positions are supported by scripture!!

How so? Well, that depends on whose perspective you are looking at it from. From God's perspective, a being which exists outside of time.. time and all the markers that allow us to tell time, a product of His creation. So God knows the end from the beginning, the beginning from the end. He knew in the beginning what He will know in the end, He'll know in the end what He knew in the beginning and WE KNOW THIS... because what will happen in the end was written long ago. So from God's point of view, maybe He did not create you to do this or that... but seeing He knows what your choice will be before you make it... from that perspective, you are predestined.

Yet we are told we can choose between blessing and cursing, life and death... and then told to "choose life!" Repenting is a choice, belief is a choice... we can choose the lusts of this world, or the righteousness of God. The Kingdom will not be filled with robotic worshippers who have been made/forced to worship... the Kingdom will be filled with people who chose life, who WANT to serve God out of reverant fear and respect!

Peace.
Ken

[timspong]

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Yehoshua.

The prophecy which Judas fulfilled is found in Psalm 69.

I have sat back and watched the predestination/free will arguement for years. If not that it divides brethren, I would find it amusing! Neither side will back down long enough to see the obvious... BOTH positions are supported by scripture!!

How so? Well, that depends on whose perspective you are looking at it from. From God's perspective, a being which exists outside of time.. time and all the markers that allow us to tell time, a product of His creation. So God knows the end from the beginning, the beginning from the end. He knew in the beginning what He will know in the end, He'll know in the end what He knew in the beginning and WE KNOW THIS... because what will happen in the end was written long ago. So from God's point of view, maybe He did not create you to do this or that... but seeing He knows what your choice will be before you make it... from that perspective, you are predestined.

Yet we are told we can choose between blessing and cursing, life and death... and then told to "choose life!" Repenting is a choice, belief is a choice... we can choose the lusts of this world, or the righteousness of God. The Kingdom will not be filled with robotic worshippers who have been made/forced to worship... the Kingdom will be filled with people who chose life, who WANT to serve God out of reverant fear and respect!

Peace.
Ken

This is called compatiblism and I fully agree with it.

[Bosco]

This is called compatiblism and I fully agree with it.

I didn't know it had a name timspong, but I guess that doesn't surprise me that it does. I had no dog in the fight and really didn't care what the outcome was when I studied it. When I realized both positions were in scripture, and went about the task of prayerfully trying to reconcile the two and that's when I realized that it simply depends on whose eyes you are looking at the issue from. It was a rewarding study.

Thanks.

Peace.
Ken

[Jnthn]

Given John 6, what would you say the difference is in foreknowledge and predestination?I can only go to the definitions of the words: foreknowledge is knowledge of an event's occurence before the fact...predestination relates to the capability to ensure an event happens. The latter directly relates to volition the former, not.

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)" (John 6:64)

Also, if Judas had not betrayed Jesus and he had not died on the cross, how would our sins be atoned for? Was this not something that had to happen and thus is predestined to happen?Judas betrayal was foreknown so what would have happened otherwise is moot.

J

[Pilgrim]

It seems that foreknown is for ordained to me. If the script is already written and God knows the script and God's knowledge is perfect then Judas had no eternal choice in the matter. Sure, in his finite world he percieved choices but in the eternal scheme of things those choices had no consequence.

So yes, Judas we predestined to this event.

And I agree with Bos and Tim that both things are working. As C.S. Lewis said in the Space trilogy, (well, he had Ransom say it): "Free will and predestination, predestination and free will, these are two sides of the same come, they are both working together."

[stephen goswami]

Are we able to break away from the destiny prescribed by the "demigods" under our own volition? If so then it is not much of a destiny. If not then how exactly are we able to do it?

A higher authority can cancel the decrees of lower ones. As we go to higher love-authority, slave-like predestination is replaced with more freedom as love gives freedom. Only by trying to rise to higher authority we can cancel slavery to predestination. but apart from that effort we cant break that chain by our own effort.

[stephen goswami]

So are you saying our souls existed before our birth? If so, why do you say that? It's not a typical Christian belief, as far as I know.

Did Christ say that our souls are created in this world? Never! The pre-Persian Jewish religion did not believe in soul and Sadducees represent that until now. But in prodigal son Christ clearly mentions that we fell from heaven. It also conforms to theist humanity’s universal belief. Every sage and saint says that we have to return to our original home.

[seanD]

Certainly there is predestination. Hindu Indians make horoscope at birth and it comes true. I witness that truth though I was brought up in an atheist educated Hindu family. It happens because we are a degenerate heaven-fallen people. (Please take time to read my posts). When we are born here the stars representing demigods (devils to which we sold ourselves while in that degenerated heaven) plots our destiny.
But that horoscope is cancelled when one submits himself to Christ. In such cases horoscope’s tragedies never happen. I witness to that also.
Yes, Judas was destined to betray Christ that way. It would have been cancelled if Judas really submitted to Christ, but he never did. Majority people want Christ to be used for their interests, not to be used by him. So their predestination is never cancelled.

I think one of them was destined to portray Christ. It could have been anyone of them, even Peter -- Satan wanted to put him through trial -- which is why Jesus prayed for Peter. I think it was more like, once the pressure was on, the weakest link in the chain gave into the inevitable.

[seanD]

I think one of them was destined to portray Christ. It could have been anyone of them, even Peter -- Satan wanted to put him through trial -- which is why Jesus prayed for Peter. I think it was more like, once the pressure was on, the weakest link in the chain gave into the inevitable.

Substitute "portray" for "betray" lol. It was a long night last night. :ahem:

[Taran Wanderer]

Substitute "portray" for "betray" lol. It was a long night last night. :ahem:
Oh, I thought maybe the disciples were putting on an Easter pageant. :wink:

[bling]

Did Christ say that our souls are created in this world? Never! The pre-Persian Jewish religion did not believe in soul and Sadducees represent that until now. But in prodigal son Christ clearly mentions that we fell from heaven. It also conforms to theist humanity’s universal belief. Every sage and saint says that we have to return to our original home.

Where do you find prexistance in the prodigal son story???
+

[bling]

Given John 6, what would you say the difference is in foreknowledge and predestination?

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)" (John 6:64)

Also, if Judas had not betrayed Jesus and he had not died on the cross, how would our sins be atoned for? Was this not something that had to happen and thus is predestined to happen?

You might want to think about it like this: 1. Time is relative and there is a space-time continuum that is warped. 2. Information can flow back through some wormhole to God at an earlier time in human history or human time. 3. What God has seen is the moral decisions Judas made at an earlier time. 3. These decisions are not “predestined”, but are the free will decisions of Judas.

[stephen goswami]

You might want to think about it like this: 1. Time is relative and there is a space-time continuum that is warped. 2. Information can flow back through some wormhole to God at an earlier time in human history or human time. 3. What God has seen is the moral decisions Judas made at an earlier time. 3. These decisions are not “predestined”, but are the free will decisions of Judas.

Actually in our fallen state we all are mortal enemies of Christ. Judas did one part, Peter another, high priest, Pilate, Centurion etc. did their parts. No one is exception; otherwise we would not be in this devil’s kingdom. When we had sold ourselves to devil before our fall like Adam and Eve, devil stamped that fate to us as slaves are stamped by masters. Certainly Heavenly Father, the democratic unity of heavenly parents, does not stamp slave like fate on His children. It is for slaves. Children are free to be what they like and called to enter into the unity of parents. It is simple as that. So no mindboggling discourse is necessary.
The old ‘God’ conception based on despot leader kings must be upgraded to more free democratic leadership.

[bling]

Actually in our fallen state we all are mortal enemies of Christ. Judas did one part, Peter another, high priest, Pilate, Centurion etc. did their parts. No one is exception; otherwise we would not be in this devil’s kingdom. When we had sold ourselves to devil before our fall like Adam and Eve, devil stamped that fate to us as slaves are stamped by masters. Certainly Heavenly Father, the democratic unity of heavenly parents, does not stamp slave like fate on His children. It is for slaves. Children are free to be what they like and called to enter into the unity of parents. It is simple as that. So no mindboggling discourse is necessary.
The old ‘God’ conception based on despot leader kings must be upgraded to more free democratic leadership.


Who is wanting a democracy? I want a benefilent dictatorship.

[stephen goswami]

Who is wanting a democracy? I want a benefilent dictatorship.

that is impossible as history proves.

[bling]

that is impossible as history proves.

This is not my Home, when I do get home that is what I will have.

[stephen goswami]

This is not my Home, when I do get home that is what I will have.

What i seek here will get up there.