Was Messiah a sacrifice to God?

[Bosco]

Don't let the thread title ruffle your feathers. We don't have questions answered unless we ask questions. So I am asking.

So let me lay out a scenario, and I would be interested in you sharing your thoughts.

Three times in the Tanach (OT) we see God saying he hates human sacrifices. Now these are pointed directly toward pagan sacrifices, but a human sacrifice even unto God would still be a human sacrifice, right?

Yehoshua is called the Lamb of God. But is he a literal lamb? Obviously not, he lacks 4 legs, a body full of hair, and spoke a little differently than Baaaa. Too, the Pesach (Passover) lamb was to be inspected by priests in the Temple, killed and quartered on an alter, burnt or roasted, and then if I am not mistaken, eaten. Were any of these things done to Messiah?

I will not share my views on this for now, I prefer to see what you all think before I say anything. But I will add only this, Paul (I beleve Paul wrote Hebrews) said he was killed "outside the gates." Does that weigh into this in any way?

Peace.
Ken

[RBerman]

Not all human sacrifices are created equal. The OT texts you mention deal, as you mention, with the way that human sacrifices were offered to pagan gods.

[bling]

First and foremost: God does not do stuff or have others do stuff for His sake, but God is doing and allowing to happen for the sake of those that are willing to accept His help to fulfill their objective.
Christ is not forcible being sacrificed and can walk away at any time. Since there is no great act of Love (this is Godly type Love) then for a person (and the father of the person allowing it) to be tortured and cruelly killed for the sake of another. From this action (and just some words) we know that God’s Love is great enough to forgive us our sins.
Also, as we come to the realization of our sins and the degree of the tragedy they create, we know that there must be suffer punishment for those sins. The punishment for our sins is much greater than we can bare, so Christ (our Loving innocent older brother) offers to take our place (We do not want this, but realize there is really no other way) and God who Loves us and Jesus accepts Christ’s offer to take our place since there really is no other way. So we can look back to the cross and know God’s Love is great enough and yes there is punishment for our sins, but it has been paid. “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”. We thus become Lovers of God and all of God’s creation fulfilling our objective by just accepting God’s Love (forgiveness) as the free undeserving gift.

[John Goddard]

The punishment for our sins is much greater than we can bare, so Christ (our Loving innocent older brother) offers to take our place (We do not want this, but realize there is really no other way) and God who Loves us and Jesus accepts Christ’s offer to take our place since there really is no other way.

This is much a false doctrine since punishment for our sins is eternal death, and Jesus did not take our place suffering eternal death.

Rather, his sacrifice was the personal choice of martyrdom for God's Word, rejecting a worldly kingdom to be the next Jewish Caesar/Pharaoh, as offered in Matthew 4:9.

For that Jesus established himself as God's Son along with many obedient who were also His sheep being obedient to their Master, Romans 8:14, Ezekiel 34:11, etc.

But he was the most obedient, and that's why he is THE Lamb, THE Son, etc. even though there are others who remained righteous at the hands of wicked who persecuted them.

[bling]

This is much a false doctrine since punishment for our sins is eternal death, and Jesus did not take our place suffering eternal death.

Rather, his sacrifice was the personal choice of martyrdom for God's Word, rejecting a worldly kingdom to be the next Jewish Caesar/Pharaoh, as offered in Matthew 4:9.

For that Jesus established himself as God's Son along with many obedient who were also His sheep being obedient to their Master, Romans 8:14, Ezekiel 34:11, etc.

But he was the most obedient, and that's why he is THE Lamb, THE Son, etc. even though there are others who remained righteous at the hands of wicked who persecuted them.

We have no idea how much spiritual pain it would be for deity to take on sin. We have only what was seeable and not what was happening in the Spiritual realm where Christ also dwelled at that time and is dwelling now. Time is also very relative.
Where does it say all human sinners have eternal lives and will dwell in Hell forever? (Check out multiple translations also)

[John Goddard]

We have no idea how much spiritual pain it would be for deity to take on sin. We have only what was seeable and not what was happening in the Spiritual realm where Christ also dwelled at that time and is dwelling now. Time is also very relative.
Where does it say all human sinners have eternal lives and will dwell in Hell forever? (Check out multiple translations also)

Jesus was sinless and could not have taken on sin and become sinful as a humiliation, either.

Jesus became sin by accepting the punishment of a false prophet and was martyred for it, nothing more exotic or unbiblical than that.

[bling]

Jesus was sinless and could not have taken on sin and become sinful as a humiliation, either.

Jesus became sin by accepting the punishment of a false prophet and was martyred for it, nothing more exotic or unbiblical than that.

1 Peter 2: 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

[Bosco]

1 Peter 2: 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

First to Bling, you are correct, Messiah wasn't forced but I am not sure he could have left anytime. He was appointed to die, he humbled himself in the fashion of man, made lower than the angels, "for the suffering of death." He had to die because he was appointed to die.

TO ALL... I see Yehoshua as the guy who dove in front of me as somebody fired a shot. He sacrificed himself for us, gave his life for us, but I no longer believe he was a sacrifice to God on our behalf, and let me share why.

When Adam sinned the result was death. Sin indeed equals death. So if sin equals death, the opposite would be perfection equaling life. What we have in Yehoshua is indeed that, a life of perfection which resulted in life for all who believe. It was when he was raised from the grave that he earned the right to perfect whom he wills. It was when he was raised from the dead that he became the firstfruits of all who would follow. When we are baptised we are not baptised into a sacrifice to God, we are indentifying with and are immersed into his perfect life, death, and resurrection. That's why Romans 6 speaks about being baptised into his death and raised to walk in the newness of life.

Understand, I am not saying Messiah did not sacrifice himself for us, die for us. All I am saying is that if God hates human sacrifice done by pagans, why would he accept human sacrifice unto himself? And seeing Messiah was not inspected by priests, killed and quartered on an alter, in the Temple, and then burnt or roasted and eaten... then I submit that he is the anti-type (or shadow) and the Passover Lambs before him the type. They pointed to him, they anticipated him, but they are not him. So metaphorically he is a Passover Lamb, but he isn't in a literal sense.

These are just my interpretations folks, I am simply sharing a perspective different than taught in the mainstream. I expect nobody to believe it, please weigh out all things and draw your own conclusions.

Peace.
Ken

[RBerman]

Understand, I am not saying Messiah did not sacrifice himself for us, die for us. All I am saying is that if God hates human sacrifice done by pagans, why would he accept human sacrifice unto himself? And seeing Messiah was not inspected by priests, killed and quartered on an alter, in the Temple, and then burnt or roasted and eaten... then I submit that he is the anti-type (or shadow) and the Passover Lambs before him the type. They pointed to him, they anticipated him, but they are not him. So metaphorically he is a Passover Lamb, but he isn't in a literal sense.
All analogies break down somewhere.

[John Goddard]

1 Peter 2: 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

That and verses like it is shorthand for saying he was martyred and justified humanity from Adam not being destroyed outright, as a one good man of Sodom from Abraham's wager. So we're saved from our father's sins, Jeremiah 31:29.

And for his martyrdom he is honored with role of Judge who gives us mercy if we repent, with that mercy saving us from our own sins, Jeremiah 31:30.

That he somehow became a murderer, rapist, liar, thief, etc. is a real misunderstanding if you examine everything in context.

So by his stripes we are healed of Adam's Original Sin through no doing of our own, but by his mercy for our repentance of our own sins, we are saved from death.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

[Bosco]

All analogies break down somewhere.

I am a bit slow today RB, what did you mean by this? Thanks.

Peace.
Ken

[RBerman]

I am a bit slow today RB, what did you mean by this? Thanks.
Jesus has some points of similarity with the passover lamb, and some points of dissimilarity. Most notably, Jesus is not actually a lamb.

[Bosco]

Jesus has some points of similarity with the passover lamb, and some points of dissimilarity. Most notably, Jesus is not actually a lamb.

Like I said, I was slow before.

Peace.
Ken

[UrbanMonk]

But I will add only this, Paul (I beleve Paul wrote Hebrews) said he was killed "outside the gates." Does that weigh into this in any way?

Peace.
Ken

It only weighs in if "god" hates human sacrifice within the gates of Jerusalem, and loves it outside the gates of Jerusalem. But that wouldn't make sense if Jesus said that God does not desire sacrifice but mercy. So maybe Jesus was not a sacrifice at all, unless the sacrifice of "glory" in order to "become flesh" is figured into the equation.

[UrbanMonk]

So metaphorically he is a Passover Lamb, but he isn't in a literal sense.


"Lamb" is a metaphor for the "Truth" because they share a couple of attributes in common. A lamb is meek, and does not defend itself. It does not attack, and if attacked, is easily led to slaughter. Jesus demonstrated these attributes throughout his final demonstrational ordeal. The "Lamb of God" is a metaphor for the Truth of God...which is "slain"..."before the foundation of the world"...BEFORE "the world"...not during the world. Jesus demonstrated, through the cross what seems to have happened BEFORE the "beginning" of the "heavens and the earth". The world begins with an attack on God...who does not defend or return attack. Before the beginning of TIME, the Son of God abided in "glory". This was sacrificed in the attack on God. Time and mass, in opposition to Eternity and Spirit, are killing agents. They are not the truth. As a "lie", they kill the Truth...which does not defend itself! In Truth's place, a substitute "truth" arises. In the realm of the neo-truth, everything is "born to die"....including the "son of man".

[UrbanMonk]

So metaphorically he is a Passover Lamb, but he isn't in a literal sense.

Peace.
Ken

On the cross, Jesus was metaphorically a sacrifice...but not in a literal sense. The cross symbolizes a choice to be the "son of man" instead of the "Son of God". Thus, to "become flesh" is to sacrifice the glory the Son of God had/has...since before the foundation of the world. The resurrection is about the choice to be the "Son of God"...to be what we are. As sons of men, we are all crucified with Christ, having sacrificed our glory for no gain. As sons of God, we are all raised with Christ, having had mercy upon ourselves...ending sacrifice forever. Every "day" we spend as the "son of man" is another "daily" sacrifice. The "son of man" is a collective. The collective is symbolized by the "man" Jesus. The Son of God is a real unity, symbolized by the "god", Jesus CHRIST. In brief, what is true about Jesus is true about us all as he is a symbol of our sacrifice, our meager existence, and our heritage/destiny. To avail ourselves of his lessons, we must apply his "truth" to us, and call ourselves by the same name, not "christian", but "CHRIST", the "Son of God". Then, we will rise as Christ rises. Rises from what? From the sacrifice of himSelf...from the "living dead"...from the tomb of time...from his illusions of himself as the "son of man". For to be a "son of man" is to be "born to die". Is this LIFE? Thus, to become flesh is the same as to "die". The end of sacrifice is to become Spirit, as we were, are, and always shall be.

[RBerman]

UM, it's amazing the volume of text you can churn out which bears no semblance to the Jesus revealed in the Bible, the only true source of information about Jesus.

[UrbanMonk]

UM, it's amazing the volume of text you can churn out which bears no semblance to the Jesus revealed in the Bible, the only true source of information about Jesus.

Here we go again. Upon what basis do you make this judgement? And, if I select a phrase or a theme from the NT and reject others, how is my judgement different than yours. Pointing to external source, any text, is going to lead you into a dishonest logic loop. You are the one who chooses this or that text and calls it "truth". If you choose text through a non-textual source, then the text is secondary, and the source is your primary mode of decision. The source will be either the Spirit of Truth, or the spirit of untruth. The spirit of untruth is our own, day to day, hour to hour way of thinking which is like a tip of an iceberg that reaches deep into the collective unconscious. The Spirit of Truth is unheard of while the spirit of untruth is prioritized.

Your statement above kind of implies that god is insane, incompetent, dead, unable, limited, incapacitated, shut down, absent, and reliant upon aged, incomplete, vague, contradictory, divisive, and ambiguous references for the salvation of his beloved Son.

[Bosco]

It only weighs in if "god" hates human sacrifice within the gates of Jerusalem, and loves it outside the gates of Jerusalem. But that wouldn't make sense if Jesus said that God does not desire sacrifice but mercy. So maybe Jesus was not a sacrifice at all, unless the sacrifice of "glory" in order to "become flesh" is figured into the equation.

Urban Monk, my question about Yehoshua being killed outside the gates is significant, but the question wasn't intended for you. It was intended for those who study scripture, which you do not. Scripture, accoroding to your own words, is nothing more than archane words in a book from foreign languages. It doesn't matter that the language spoke by Messiah was foreign and archane to you, therefore, you and I have nothing to discuss. I suggest we simply ignore each other's posts.

Peace.
Ken

[bling]

Bosco said:
First to Bling, you are correct, Messiah wasn't forced but I am not sure he could have left anytime. He was appointed to die, he humbled himself in the fashion of man, made lower than the angels, "for the suffering of death." He had to die because he was appointed to die.He did it of His own free will. There was no other way, so yes he was going and would stay of his own free will.

[bling]

That and verses like it is shorthand for saying he was martyred and justified humanity from Adam not being destroyed outright, as a one good man of Sodom from Abraham's wager. So we're saved from our father's sins, Jeremiah 31:29.

And for his martyrdom he is honored with role of Judge who gives us mercy if we repent, with that mercy saving us from our own sins, Jeremiah 31:30.

That he somehow became a murderer, rapist, liar, thief, etc. is a real misunderstanding if you examine everything in context.

So by his stripes we are healed of Adam's Original Sin through no doing of our own, but by his mercy for our repentance of our own sins, we are saved from death.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

No it was from all our sins and not just Adam's sin. The hebrew writer also tells us.

[John Goddard]

No it was from all our sins and not just Adam's sin. The hebrew writer also tells us.

That's about what I said.

1. So we're saved from our father's sins, Jeremiah 31:29.

2. ...mercy saving us from our own sins, Jeremiah 31:30.