Sabbath day and Heb 4 - Bosco's strain

[Bosco]

The OP left out :

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest(sabbatismos) to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

If you notice verse 10, it isn't talking about a resting in Messiah, for it is likened to God resting from His works.

Peace.
Bosco

[RBerman]

The OP left out :

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest(sabbatismos) to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

If you notice verse 10, it isn't talking about a resting in Messiah, for it is likened to God resting from His works.
And how is that not like us resting in Messiah, as opposed to our works?

[Bosco]

And how is that not like us resting in Messiah, as opposed to our works?

Shabbat mirrors many things, not the least of which is a 6 thousand year run followed by the millenial reign. Our rest in Messiah is then, not now. We are still in these bodies, still have to work, still corruptible, still need rest. God rested from his works after 6 days, we are to do the same. (whether you do or not is between you and God, I judge you not nor assume I am correct on every point)

The issue here my friend isn't Sabbath, in my opinion it comes down to other issues. And as of yet, since I am new here, I am not sure how deeply those on this site want to go. So I will refrain from going any further until I know otherwise. Time is a commodity none of us want to waste.

Peace.
Ken

[ThiefOnTheCross]

The OP left out :

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest(sabbatismos) to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

If you notice verse 10, it isn't talking about a resting in Messiah, for it is likened to God resting from His works.

Peace.
Bosco
I didn't quote Heb. 4:9-10 because it was speaking of a perfect rest, not the 7th day sabbath rest that keeps occurring at the end of every week, but the rest that God took from creating the known universe. He didn't leave His rest and enter the next Sunday and say "let there be light". If you pay very close attention to that chapter from verse 1 to 11, you will see that the writer was showing us that God's rest was a rest that a generation of Israel did not enter into because of unbelief (though they were keeping the 7th day sabbath). They scorned Joshua and Caleb's report, therefore God only granted entrance to Joshua and Caleb of that generation into the promised land, which was a type of heaven. Go and look up the Greek term "sabbatismos". You will see that it is a type of heaven-rest. Jesus literally was the One who was with God who rested in the beginning when it says in Genesis that God rested on the 7th day from all His works. Read Hebrews chapter 1 where God acknowledges Jesus as the creator of the heavens and the earth. Jesus rested then and He is at rest now, even from the works of salvation after that He hung on the cross and said, "it is finished!". His "rest" means perfection. Unlike the 7th day sabbaths that keep coming around. These frequencies were the same complaint against the animal sacrifices that kept coming around but made nothing perfect. With such things God was not well pleased. In Christ we now have perfection in simply coming to Him alone apart from all these things...

[Bosco]

I didn't quote Heb. 4:9-10 because it was speaking of a perfect rest, not the 7th day sabbath rest that keeps occurring at the end of every week, but the rest that God took from creating the known universe. He didn't leave His rest and enter the next Sunday and say "let there be light". If you pay very close attention to that chapter from verse 1 to 11, you will see that the writer was showing us that God's rest was a rest that a generation of Israel did not enter into because of unbelief (though they were keeping the 7th day sabbath). They scorned Joshua and Caleb's report, therefore God only granted entrance to Joshua and Caleb of that generation into the promised land, which was a type of heaven. Go and look up the Greek term "sabbatismos". You will see that it is a type of heaven-rest. Jesus literally was the One who was with God who rested in the beginning when it says in Genesis that God rested on the 7th day from all His works. Read Hebrews chapter 1 where God acknowledges Jesus as the creator of the heavens and the earth. Jesus rested then and He is at rest now, even from the works of salvation after that He hung on the cross and said, "it is finished!". His "rest" means perfection. Unlike the 7th day sabbaths that keep coming around. These frequencies were the same complaint against the animal sacrifices that kept coming around but made nothing perfect. With such things God was not well pleased. In Christ we now have perfection in simply coming to Him alone apart from all these things...

I understand the context of those Hebrews verses, however, the "rest" in the verse I quoted is likened to God's rest on the 7th day. Therefore, the rest in that verse is related to Shabbat, the 7th day Shabbat, and not a "resting in Christ" as I often hear, and I am not even sure what a "perfect rest" is that you cite.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his

When we enter into our rest, we are ceasing from our "works." This isn't spiritual works,(our spiritual works do not end until we die) this is work work...."as God did His."

But, that's just my take on those verses, you are welcome to your own take.

As for the "it is finished" line he said, I am assuming that you believe then that the Torah was done away with at that point? The same Torah which he said he did not come to abolish? The same Torah he said you would be called great in the kingdom of heaven if you did and taught it, and called the least if you didn't do or taught against? The same Torah called everlasting and that Messiah said would be here as long as Earth is? Look my brother, Torah is not bondage, Shabbat is not bondage... sin and death are bondage! We have been saved from sin and death through his works. He earned the right to perfect whom HE WILLS through his sinless life, death, and resurrection. But why we fall prey to the notion that Torah died with Yehoshua is beyond me at this point. While Torah does not save, never did in fact, it is very much still to this day.... God's instructions on what he expects from us.

Look, Paul wrote:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Scripture, profitable for doctrine.... for instruction in righteousness. You do realize that when Paul wrote that, there was NO NT in existence? The ONLY accepted scripture in Paul's day was the Torah and the Prophets. The writings were not even canonized for another couple of hundred years. So Paul's reference to scripture being profitabe for instruction in righteous was a reference to Torah... which we are taught is dead. I for MANY many years believed it was dead, nailed to the cross even though scipture never says that. But over the last 10 years my view has changed, and of late I am starting to wonder, how and why I ever thought it was gone in the first place.

Peace.
Bosco

[ThiefOnTheCross]

You are still taking Hebrews 4:10 out of context because it is not talking about resting every 7th day of the week. When it said "as God did from His", it was talking about something that never ended. What I mean by this is just what I said in my last post. God did not have to return to His works of old after they have been established like how we have to return to ours. If it was talking about the 7th day sabbath, then that would mean that God did not give all of Israel the sabbath in Exodus chapter 16, which is impossible because we know that they were all given the sabbath commandment. It says in the text of Hebrews chapter 4 that they did not receive this "sabbatismos" rest, so it is clear that this scripture was not emphysizing a 7th day sabbath observance.

As far as the Torah, it had no power to redeem you after that you were guilty of violating it. Although it was holy,just,and good, Jesus still had to replace it with Himself; seeing that He had the power to forgive sins. He is our law. Whatever He commands us we do. He took away the old and established the new. The bible says that He created in Himself one new man from the two thus making peace. I'm kind of short on time, so I can't really expound as I wish to, but just consider that everything the jews of old said concerning the Torah, Jesus said concerning Himself. He lived a perfect Torah life and died for us. When He rose again, He took over.

It is interesting to note that Jesus spoke of the old testament as being the "law". Sabbatarians like to break the law up into the "law of Moses" written in a book, and the "law of God"written on stone with the finger of God. What can they do with St. John 7:19 which says, "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? (He said Moses gave them the law, emphysizing the law of "thou shall not kill".). There are many such scriptures that prove that when Jesus speaks of "the law", He is speaking of everything before John the Baptist. There was the law (the Torah). Now is the gospel (Jesus)...

[Bosco]

I don't know ANY brothers who keep Shabbat and do so while breaking Torah into two parts. As for the rest of your post, respectfully, I will simply back out of this conversation. While I strongely disagree with your conclusions, I respect your right to draw them as you do and think no more, or less, of you for it.

Peace to you.
Bosco

[Bosco]

Close. In order to determine if the word "sabbath" here refers to the seventh-day Sabbath or one of the ceremonial sabbath one needs to know how one would tell which is being referred to in the relevant verses. Dr. Ron du Preez is working on his second doctorate and in his dissertation he shows one way of finding this. In a recent study he shows another way and in a forthcoming study he and I will show a third way of telling which is being referred to.

I don't personally divide Torah between moral and ceremonial commands nor do I see where scripture does. When it comes to Shabbat, it is one of the 10 commands which sum up the 613 commands that of course deal with how we interact with each other and toward God. But, Shabbat is also a moedim, an appointed day, seeing it is also listed with the other moedim/appointed days/feasts in Lev. 23.

While I understand why many do not keep any of the Sabbaths, consider them done away with, (I did too up until 10 years ago) I now do not see it that way. I don't believe anything Messiah did ended anything related to Torah, including the Sabbath. But, I don't judge others who see it differently and consider the same no more or less my brother or sister in Messiah.

Peace.
Bosco

[ThiefOnTheCross]

I don't personally divide Torah between moral and ceremonial commands nor do I see where scripture does. When it comes to Shabbat, it is one of the 10 commands which sum up the 613 commands that of course deal with how we interact with each other and toward God. But, Shabbat is also a moedim, an appointed day, seeing it is also listed with the other moedim/appointed days/feasts in Lev. 23.

While I understand why many do not keep any of the Sabbaths, consider them done away with, (I did too up until 10 years ago) I now do not see it that way. I don't believe anything Messiah did ended anything related to Torah, including the Sabbath. But, I don't judge others who see it differently and consider the same no more or less my brother or sister in Messiah.

Peace.
Bosco
What is there different to see? The sabbath appears in Col. 2:16. That means it's a shadow in verse 17 along with everything else in the verse with it. If christians have to keep the sabbath in order to be right with God, then they also have to keep the new moons, and everything that is "heorte" (all the feast days); because they are all alike sitting in Col. 2:16 together.

[Bosco]

What is there different to see? The sabbath appears in Col. 2:16. That means it's a shadow in verse 17 along with everything else in the verse with it. If christians have to keep the sabbath in order to be right with God, then they also have to keep the new moons, and everything that is "heorte" (all the feast days); because they are all alike sitting in Col. 2:16 together.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Holy days, new moons, sabbath.... look at verse 17... which ARE a shadow... not WERE a shadow. The books of Acts has examples of Jews and Greeks going into the synogogues together on Sabbath. Messiah warned that we should pray our flight be not in winter nor on Sabbath. If anyone knew Sabbath was coming to an end, it was him... and that verse is future tense. Even if it related to the fall of the Temple, that was 40 +/- years after his ascension, when Sabbath according to most was already done away with. Even in the New Jerusalem, we will be keeping the Sabbath and celebrating the New Moons:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

A command that is given that is called everlasting has no end date. Nothing in scripture has moved Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st. So while I appreciate and respect other's rights to keep whatever day they deem worthy of esteem, many years ago we began to keep the Sabbath because I simply could not find any supporting scripture to prove the day had ended or was moved. That works for me my brother, please do as you are led to.

I have an amazing amount of documentation from various denominal sources regarding the Sabbath. But, I am not sure that is allowed in this site. In any event, for personal reason I will not return, so be well and blessings to you and yours.

Peace.
Ken

[ThiefOnTheCross]

As far as Col. 2:17, I was well aware of the tense used in the verse. That doesn't really change anything. Look at Jesus in St. John 3:13 in His conversation with Nicodemus, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." At the time of Him saying that, He had not ascended "yet" because He still had not died at that point to be risen to ascend as Saviour. He rather transcends time itself, so it doesn't matter where in time He is located, He will declare a thing in the past tense way before the creation of the thing itself. Also look at Paul's letter to Timothy when he spoke concerning Adam and Eve, "...Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." (1 Tim 2:14-15). They were dead at the writing of this letter.


So would it be hard to see the things in Col. 2:16 as being done away with when you consider Romans 14:2-10, which by the way is the exact same context as Colossians 2:16, talking about the exact same things? Here is Rom 14:2-10 and I quote, "For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Both references speak of people judging one another in "eating" and on esteeming or respecting "days". Verse 17 of Colossians chapter 2 says, "... the body is of Christ." Likewise Romans 14:8 says, "...we are the Lord's". Paul made it plain that those who believe that we must keep days in order to be in right standing with God are "weak in the faith".