Islam in Fast Demise

[Dr T]

Islam in Fast Demise
In Africa Alone Everyday, 16,000 Muslims Leave Islam

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm

By Ali Sina

Hitler said if a lie is repeated often enough and long enough, it would come to be perceived as truth. One such lie often repeated is “Islam is the fastest growing religion”.

Despite the fact that Muslims by virtue of being poor and uneducated are much more reproductive than others, Islam as a religion is not growing but dying fast.

More and more Muslims are discovering that the violence evinced by some of their coreligionists is not an aberration but is inspired by the teachings of the Quran and the examples set by its author. Muslims are becoming disillusioned with Islam. They find out that the mechanistic ritual of praying five times per day, reciting verses that they do not understand and indeed mean nothing, getting up at taxing hours of the morning and abstaining from food and water until the sunset are not means to becoming more spiritual but are instruments to control their mind. These enlightened Muslims no more heed to the fear mongering verses of the Quran that threaten to burn them and roast them in the fires of hell if they dare to think and question the validity of that book.

Every day thousands of Muslim intellectuals are leaving Islam. They find Islam inconsistent with science, logics, human rights and ethics. Millions of Iranians already have left Islam. The enlightened Muslims of other nationalities are not far behind. This is the beginning of a mass exodus from Islam. It is a movement that is already in motion and nothing can stop it.

However the exodus from Islam is not reserved to the intellectuals but also the average Muslims are finding that Islam is not the way to God but to ignorance, poverty and wars. They are leaving Islam to embrace other religions especially the Christianity.

Perhaps it is best to listen to the truth coming from the mouth of the horse. The Internet site aljazeera.net published an interview with Ahmad Al Qataani ÃÍãÏ ÇáÞØÚÇäí An important Islamic cleric who said: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."

What Muslims say among each other, is not the same thing that they say for the consumption of the Westerners.

These are huge numbers. If this trend continues we can expect to see Islam become insignificant in Africa in just a few decades. This is good news for those who are concerned about the on going slavery in Africa and the prospects of war and genocide.

In fact with the weakening of Islam, we can hope to see peace in many war-ridden parts of the world including Palestine. By now it should be clear that any road map to peace between Israel and Palestine will be blocked by the Islamists and the terrorists. Peace in Middle East is not possible as long as Islam is the ideology of the masses.

It is important that we realize that this terrorism that is threatening the peace of the world and these wars that bleed the Muslim nations are not economically motivated but are they are hate motivated. They are religious wars. The weakening of Islam means peace for mankind.

Al Qataani and al Jazeera Network were alarmed by these huge numbers of Muslims leaving Islam, but humanity must rejoice over these numbers. The weakening of Islam means the triumph of mankind.

The following is part of the transcript of Al Jazeera's Interview with Al Qataani translated to English. Here is the original transcript in Arabic



Maher Abdallah:
Dear viewers, peace of Allah be upon you, greetings and welcome to a new episode of the program Islamic Law and Life.

Our topic this evening will be Christianization in the Dark Continent ... Africa. For after Islam was the religion of the majority, the great majority of that continent, the number of Muslims now is no greater than a third of the population. This is taking into consideration, of course, that a large portion of this group are Arab Muslims. No doubt that the missions of evangelization and Christianization played a great role in this demographic shift of Muslims in the continent.

To discuss this topic, it is my pleasure to introduce today a man who is an expert on the issue of evangelization and Christianization in Africa, even though he will concentrate on the issue of Christianization first and foremost…. Sheikh Ahmad Al Qataani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers.

Sheikh Ahmad, welcome to you on the program.

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Greeting to you.

Maher Abdallah:
If we start by inquiring about your strict stance against the Christian missions in Africa, don’t the followers of every religion have the right to seek new converts, exactly as you train and graduate young Muslims to propagate Islam?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
I seek refuge in Allah the Seer, the Knower, from the stoned devil. In the name of Allah the Merciful the Beneficent. Thanks to Allah the One, the Only, the Permanent One, who did not give birth nor was born, to whom no one was equal. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah who has no partners, and I bear witness that our master Muhammed – Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him - is his messenger and seal of prophets; Allah prayers be upon him and his brothers the prophets and messengers and their families.

The question that you pose is a result of not comprehending the difference between the concept of Christianization and the concept of evangelism.

The concept of evangelism: is inviting the non-Christians to the Christian or Nazarene religion, and this is the right of every Christian and the right of every believer to call others to his faith. However, we are talking about a different matter; which is Christianization. Christianization means the following: preparing plans, and executing these plans and evolving these plans to change Muslims into Christians by taking advantage of the ignorance and poverty (of the people) and whatever necessitates from similar circumstances.

So, we are faced with the issue of taking advantage of circumstances, taking advantage of humanitarian needs, taking advantage of the lack of education for example, that these people (missionaries) use to take Muslims out of their religion.

Maher Abdallah:
Fine. This is a big and dangerous phrase. Taking advantage of poverty, of ignorance, of lack of education, of some need is something that a Muslim can also be accused of. So if you don’t back up what you say with examples, with references, your words remain in the air without much weight to them.

Ahmad Al Qataani:
The reality is that these words say a lot less than they should. As we said in the beginning, everyone has the right to invite others to his religion; this is what is known as evangelism (or proselytizing). As for Christianization, no one has the right to take Muslims out of their religion, and you asked for references and the references are too numerous.

Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well
.there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
These numbers are very large indeed …..

Maher Abdallah (interrupting):
Hold on! Let me clarify. Do we have 6 million converting from Islam to Christianity or converting from Islam and other religions?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Great (question)! The other religions are not placed on the list of Christianization; rather they are placed on the list of evangelization. The other religion in Africa is paganism; so it’s Islam, Christianity or paganism. There isn’t something similar to Asia for example where you have Buddhism or Zoroastrianism. In Africa it is just these three, so if you talk about Christianization then it targets the only other heavenly religion which is Islam. As for paganism, those people worship animals and planets and the like.

Maher Abdallah:
So 6 million Muslims a year convert?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Every year ….. In the African nations this century a tragedy happened. Take for example what happened in Ethiopia. Ethiopia is an Arab nation and I am not saying a muslim nation. If any student looks up the word Habasha (Ethiopia) in the book Ocean Dictionary written by Al-Fairuz Abady, he will find that the word Habashat means “people of different tribes” and this is what happened. Ethiopia was a place where Arabs from different tribes would go to live for a while. We all know that Islam entered Ethiopia before Islam entered the city of Medina. We all know that AL-Najashy (the ruler of Ethiopia) was a Muslim. It is mentioned by Al-Darkatny in his biography of the prophet – Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him – that during the month of Rajab in the 9th year of the Hijra (Muslim calendar) that the prophet said to his companions: “Rise up and pray on your brother Al-Najashy.” From that year on the practice of praying on the absent was established. Therefore from the time of the prophet – Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him – Islam entered Ethiopia. So what has happened to Ethiopia?

What happened is that in the days of Emperor Hela Silasi who used to force Muslims to bow to the Christian, and if he refused then he was whipped 45 lashes and jailed between 2 and 5 years. In the year 1948, a massacre occurred at the hands of the Amharic tribes; the Amharic being Christians and collaborators, who continued to slaughter Muslims for 7 months and perform the most horrific acts imaginable. For example they deprived them from the most basic human rights, to the point that they mutilated the male Muslim’s reproductive organs so that no more Muslim children would be born. Ethiopia was rewarded after all these horrific acts; rewarded by being made the head quarters of the African Unity League.

Let us move to another location in Africa, let it be Nigeria. Nigeria is known by Muslims by the name of the Land of Takror. Nigeria was founded at the beginning of the last century by the British, and many Islamic sources mention it’s name as the Land of Tekror. There is even a letter by the reciter Suyuti, who died in the year 911 Hijri, where the title is: Opening the blessed request and relating the hidden openly to the questions of the people of Takror. So there was an established relationship, and they used to send questions to the scholars of Islam, so this letter (of questions) was sent from one of the sheikh scholars of Nigeria that was called Takror to the Muslim scholar AL Suyuti in Egypt and he in turn responded and the contents of this letter are published and printed and is found in the book “The collection Islamic decrees”.

Nigeria’s population is 120 million people, 70% of whom are Muslim. In the 1960’s a British missionary came and declared that he will Christianize North Nigeria, the majority of whom are Muslim. As a result, Ahmad Banulo (from the leaders of the Msulims) was forced at the time to move him to Lagos the capital. As a result the butcher Arorese, that was present at the time, eliminated all the Muslim rulers and killed Ahmad Banulo, why? Because he merely dared to move this missionary who declared that he wishes to Christianize North Nigeria.

In another country, Zanzibar, is an Arabic African nation and I am not saying Muslim. Zanzibar was always connected to the Sultanate of Oman (in the Persian Gulf). Concerning Zanzibar, there was a priest by the name Julius Niriry, president of Tanzania, who annihilated 20,000 Muslims (male and female) with a military force lead by a chicken thief. This thief was imprisoned for being accused of stealing chickens; he was released and asked to command the military brigade that annihilated 20,000 Muslims.

Maher Abdallah:
My dear viewers welcome back to this episode where we are speaking about the topic of Christianization in the African continent and we are speaking with the Sheikh who is observing and following this issue, as each hour Islam loses just under 700 Muslims who join the Christian religion which leads us to the number of 6 million Muslims every year.

Our sir, you mentioned that there are advantages being taken of necessities: poverty, ignorance; what you mentioned then are waves of elimination, waves of religious eradication, and there is no need to call is racial eradication….. However, let us go back to the topic necessity and exploitation. This may have all been in the past; the military expeditions that you spoke of were all in the beginning or middle of the last century, but what is happening today in regards to exploiting necessities?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
What I wanted to say is that these military expeditions and wars paved the way for what we are seeing today; converting 6 million Muslims every year did not happen from nothing, but was a result of what I mentioned earlier.

As for the topic of necessity exploitation, then a nation like Somalia, whose population is 9.5 million people, are all Muslim without exception. There are no Christians or pagans. And if you did find any then they are an insignificant number that are not even on official statistics. A Belgian missionary by the name of Sabeh came to Somalia and purchased 30,000 Muslim youth, he took advantage of their parents poverty, and we all know the terrible situation that Somalia is going through now and what it went through a few years ago. This is taking advantage of a humanitarian need that any human can go through.

[AtheistArchon]

More and more Muslims are discovering that the violence evinced by some of their coreligionists is not an aberration but is inspired by the teachings of the Quran and the examples set by its author. Muslims are becoming disillusioned with Islam. They find out that the mechanistic ritual of praying five times per day, reciting verses that they do not understand and indeed mean nothing, getting up at taxing hours of the morning and abstaining from food and water until the sunset are not means to becoming more spiritual but are instruments to control their mind. These enlightened Muslims no more heed to the fear mongering verses of the Quran that threaten to burn them and roast them in the fires of hell if they dare to think and question the validity of that book.

[...]

They are leaving Islam to embrace other religions especially the Christianity.

- Oh. So they're giving up one mind control for another? Meh.

- Useless rituals, meaningless verses, no freedom of thought out of fear of hell? Yes, sounds familiar.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

AtheistArchon:

- Oh. So they're giving up one mind control for another? Meh.

- Useless rituals, meaningless verses, no freedom of thought out of fear of hell? Yes, sounds familiar.

I'm so sorry for you, sounds like your experiences with Christianity were pretty bad.


I'm afraid its hard to know what to trust from the above report. Clearly, this interview conveys that, especially in Africa, muslims are afraid of losing ground to Christianity.
dlw
dlw

[markporter]

do we have any muslims on TWeb?

[Cowthulu]

- Oh. So they're giving up one mind control for another? Meh.

- Useless rituals, meaningless verses, no freedom of thought out of fear of hell? Yes, sounds familiar.

AA, the amount bitterness in your posts makes it hard to take anything you write objectively. I have only been on this board a few weeks and I already tend to skip over your posts because of the pure amount of vitriol. Don't know if posting this will do any good, but your methods do harm to your goals.

[Dr T]

Can this be moved to the new Islam forum? Anyone know how?

[Jme]

REally fast demise? Tell that to the christians in texas that convert-

Eric was a Baptist preacher before he became a Muslim 14 years ago. Now he prays five times a day – even in the middle of watching a football game. His wife, Karen, also a convert, is covered from head to toe in the traditional Muslim burka. Islam, says Eric, ‘is everything I wanted Christianity to be’. His mother has found it hard to come to terms with her son’s conversion and believes he will return to the Christian faith: ‘Then he will be a dynamic preacher.’ Eric says: ‘Maybe some day she’ll embrace Islam.’

Women are also becoming followers of Muhamed. Yasmine (previously Mindy) arranged a marriage for herself and has three children. Islam, she says is ‘the solution to a lot of the prevailing evils: drugs, adultery, fornication…’ Converts often see the religious laws more clearly than those who have been brought up as Muslims and Yasmine can spot a mistake at 20 paces. She believes that she has a unique opportunity to help people who are born into the religion get back to the fundamentals.

Catherine has been a Muslim for two weeks. She came from a privileged background – private school followed by a career in PR. Now the established Muslim women guide her through the purification rituals as she washes before prayer and removes her nail varnish.

David is the only white Muslim in his little town on Route 66. He believes his new religion makes him a better American and, far from undermining liberties, gives the individual more rights. He had an arranged marriage and his wife, who was born a Muslim, was shocked by the strictness with which he insists they live their lives. His family – a white man with his wife and daughter dressed in their hijabs (headscarves) –are stared in the streets and supermarkets of their one-horse town.

There are 400,000 Muslims in Texas alone and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the USA. Since 9/11 there have been more converts to Islam than ever. Eric believes that people are trying to understand Muslims and want to learn about their religion. Yasmine says: ‘America should not be afraid. If it would be better Muslims were the majority. If a child asks me: “Who made this leaf?” I say, “Allah. Allah made everything.”’
http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/believeitornot/texas1.html

[Dr T]

REally fast demise? Tell that to the christians in texas that convert-


http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/believeitornot/texas1.html

I don't believe the numbers that are quoted.

The article you have referenced in your link doesn't give a source for any of them, any idea where we could go to check up on these numbers?

Do you really believe that more people than ever are converting to Islam in the US since 9/11? If so do you have evidence or links where we could go and look this up on?

I've seen this claim lots of times, but have yet to see any evidence given to back it up.

[Gilgaron]

I googled up this (http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/key_findings.htm) for you fellows.

It shows how secular America has been growing, as well as differences between gender (males are less likely to be religious), age (older are more religious) and percentages of a religion that regularly attend service (highest among Born Again evangelicals).

I didn't want to read the whole thing, but maybe it will help you guys settle your argument.

[AtheistArchon]

I'm so sorry for you, sounds like your experiences with Christianity were pretty bad.


AA, the amount bitterness in your posts makes it hard to take anything you write objectively. I have only been on this board a few weeks and I already tend to skip over your posts because of the pure amount of vitriol. Don't know if posting this will do any good, but your methods do harm to your goals.

- I feel bitter on this subject because it doesn't help humanity by changing from Islam to Christianity. It's literally trading one invisible friend for another. *shrug*

- Centuries ago, Islam was THE seat of science in the world. The most enlightened nations on the planet were Islamic. Now that's all gone, and Islam has been turned into a 2nd-class religion with only brutality to foster it along, but what has taken its place? Another religion... doomed in the end to follow the same path as science makes more and more of its fairy-tales appear absurd. Perhaps this time, people will be leaving Christianity for agnosticism instead of Islam for Christianity.

- Egads, we learn so slowly.

[Gilgaron]

One other thing, in the link I gave, turnover is mentioned for several religions. JW's for example gets many converts, but also many people leaving. So when looking at trends in Islam it would be important to both consider how many people leave for Christianity and how many people join from other religions.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

- I feel bitter on this subject because it doesn't help humanity by changing from Islam to Christianity. It's literally trading one invisible friend for another. *shrug*

okay. I guess their histories have some similarities. The evidence for the validity of the Bible is stronger since there is a lesser time gap between the earliest documents and when the events supposedly took place and we have more early documents.

Also, bear in mind that the records of Jews in Jerusalem when Mohammed arrived did not portray him as someone who was trying to start a new religion, but rather a liberator from their Byzantine oppressors. And so, it seems that Mohammed may have been seeking to start up a Judaism for Arabs, and rejected the corrupt form of Christianity he had been exposed to.

Also, while the Islam claims that the Koran was given to Mohammed at Mecca complete by two angels, this is internally disreputed by the extensive references to the monotheism of Judaism and Christianity, which were centered far away from Mecca. The only way the official line could be true is through the angel hypothesis.

Contrast this with the Gospels, which are independent accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus.

- Centuries ago, Islam was THE seat of science in the world. The most enlightened nations on the planet were Islamic. Now that's all gone, and Islam has been turned into a 2nd-class religion with only brutality to foster it along, but what has taken its place? Another religion... doomed in the end to follow the same path as science makes more and more of its fairy-tales appear absurd. Perhaps this time, people will be leaving Christianity for agnosticism instead of Islam for Christianity.

- Egads, we learn so slowly.

Islam was the seat of science, because it sent Christian Europe into the Dark-Ages by its violent uprisal, reducing the centers of Christianity from four to one, setting in motion many bad future outcomes.

It was the seat of science, because it benefitted both from the writings of the hellenist philosophers and the teachings of Judaism and Christianity. How much value was added can be subject to debate.

Having arisen in a political vacuum, it also was in a position to make many needed reforms and experimentation in governance, which then led to its golden age.

Anyways, these are all things I would want to bear in mind in evaluating Islam and Christianity.

dlw

[AtheistArchon]

- I bow to your knowledge here, DLW... Islam certainly isn't my area of expertise.

- And by the way, I LOVE your sig. :hehe:

[HippoCrates]

Islam was the seat of science, because it sent Christian Europe into the Dark-Ages by its violent uprisal, reducing the centers of Christianity from four to one, setting in motion many bad future outcomes.

No. The centers of Christianity went from five to two, and the three centers lost weren't in Europe. Two of them, Antioch and Jerusalem, had already been thoroughly sacked by the Zoroastrian Persians (and then the Christian Byzantines) before the Muslims got to them. Only Alexandria had been relatively untouched. And as I remember, the bishops of Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria still participated in Church councils for some centuries after the Arab conquests, so it's not like these Christian communities just vanished.

And Christian Europe had already sent itself into the Dark Ages. In the 6th century, Italy had been utterly devastated by the Byzantine conquest and then the Lombard invasion. France and Germany had been conquered by the Frankish king, Clovis, and then fought over by his murderous children, none of whom had the least interest in classical literature and learning. Spain had been invaded in the 5th century by the Vandals, Suevi, and Alans, and then again by the Visigoths, who spent the 6th century at war with Basques and surviving Suevi, and most of the 7th in civil war. In England at least, pagan Saxons and Angles could be blamed for the destruction, as could pagan Slavs and Avars in the Balkans.

[Aseity]

- Oh. So they're giving up one mind control for another?


No. They're giving up mind control for "mind renewal." Big diff!

Romans 12
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

[Aseity]

Islam certainly isn't my area of expertise.

Neither is Christianity.

You wouldn't have a clue. True?

I will give you a clue: God exists and He provides *ALL* the evidence for His existence. Have a look around you and in your mirror.

[EvoUK]

I will give you a clue: God exists and He provides *ALL* the evidence for His existence. Have a look around you and in your mirror.

perhaps an argument from design is quite impressive if you were already inclined to believe it- i.e you are already a thiest. doesn't work otherwise i'm afraid. :attn:

We are pattern seeking animals. That programming is so strong that we are quite adept at finding patterns where there are none, and often when we find no patterns we feel something is missing, something is terribly wrong. It's who we are, as a species.

[jason]

I saw this article mentioned in a local magazine.

Encouraging isn't it.

As for those saying "But Islam is growing fast in the west!".

All I can say is, "Who cares ?".

Christianity is growing ridiculously fast in Africa and China (South America to I believe). And the west is heading more and more quickly into the abyss and following the example of ancient Rome anyway. Our culture is not going to be around that much longer.

Jason

[Da Lone-Warrior]

No. The centers of Christianity went from five to two, and the three centers lost weren't in Europe. Two of them, Antioch and Jerusalem, had already been thoroughly sacked by the Zoroastrian Persians (and then the Christian Byzantines) before the Muslims got to them. Only Alexandria had been relatively untouched. And as I remember, the bishops of Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria still participated in Church councils for some centuries after the Arab conquests, so it's not like these Christian communities just vanished.

And Christian Europe had already sent itself into the Dark Ages. In the 6th century, Italy had been utterly devastated by the Byzantine conquest and then the Lombard invasion. France and Germany had been conquered by the Frankish king, Clovis, and then fought over by his murderous children, none of whom had the least interest in classical literature and learning. Spain had been invaded in the 5th century by the Vandals, Suevi, and Alans, and then again by the Visigoths, who spent the 6th century at war with Basques and surviving Suevi, and most of the 7th in civil war. In England at least, pagan Saxons and Angles could be blamed for the destruction, as could pagan Slavs and Avars in the Balkans.

I stand corrected in part.

The rise of Islam was one of the factors that led to the Dark Ages in Europe.

It did markedly change the future development of Europe and Christianity, though, which was my point.

dlw

[jason]

The rise of Islam was one of the factors that led to the Dark Ages in Europe.

Dark Ages ?

Have you read much of what came out of the Middle Ages ?

Jason

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Dark Ages ?

Have you read much of what came out of the Middle Ages ?

Jason

The first part of the Middle Ages wasn't as productive. More steps backwards were taken than steps forward.

dlw

[Epoetker]

And lets not forget that many of the depredations of the Dark Ages were due to the fact that most people, though they claimed Christianity, couldn't actually read the Bible, and based most of their public conversion and/or religious policy on...Islam, the nearest and most successful-looking religion in the world. Everyone's always tempted to follow what the big guy on the block does...

Islam progressed mightily in science when it took its faith least seriously. Christianity not only progressed, but led the world in scientific acheivement when it took its faith most seriously.

I feel bitter on this subject because it doesn't help humanity by changing from Islam to Christianity. It's literally trading one invisible friend for another. *shrug*

You don't think that the New Testament and the Koran have a rather qualitatively different message? Must not have read much of either.

Centuries ago, Islam was THE seat of science in the world. The most enlightened nations on the planet were Islamic.

Which was not to say they followed the Koran very seriously. Good for them.

Now that's all gone, and Islam has been turned into a 2nd-class religion with only brutality to foster it along,

Such a fate was its doom once its adherents learned to read and understand the words of its founder, and which applied most consistently to their daily lives.

but what has taken its place? Another religion... doomed in the end to follow the same path as science makes more and more of its fairy-tales appear absurd.

I'm seeing no doom on the horizon. Perhaps I lack your vision, but given its tendency to lapse into hateful, blind, ideological tirades when confronted with observable, factual truths in the here and now, I'd rather go with Christ's vision for the future.

Perhaps this time, people will be leaving Christianity for agnosticism instead of Islam for Christianity.

Given the conversion rates of agnostics who come to Tweb, this doesn't look all that promising. Perhaps a dynamic equilibrium between the two? They are at least the most honest positions.

- Egads, we learn so slowly.

And you not at all, but that's entirely by your choice at this point.

[jason]

The first part of the Middle Ages wasn't as productive. More steps backwards were taken than steps forward.

Yet it was a time that produced the writings of Thomas Aquinas and Anselm. The monestaries set the scence for the discovery of science.

Come on, it was not all bad.

Jason

[Dr T]

The first part of the Middle Ages wasn't as productive. More steps backwards were taken than steps forward.

dlw

This used to be accepted wisdom at one stage, but I think that there has been a move a way from this. In part the name the dark ages prejudges the time, but originally it might a period of time about which we didn't know very much.

What do you think were the steps backwards, and which the steps forward?

[CatholicSage]

There is a difference between the common usage of "Dark ages" and "Middle ages," and Love-warrior was commenting on the Dark ages. I believe that the Dark ages were the period between the fall of Rome and close to the beginning of the second millennium, and they are called such because we know little about them (most writing at the time involved saving the ancient knowledge that was fast disappearing). The Middle Ages are indeed underrated in terms of progress, but I don't think Love-warrior was referring to those.

[muslim]

you can find the story of the "Re-version" of the Texan preacher and all stuff about ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION -HERE:


http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/believeitornot/texas1.html


http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/)




Muslim, Arguing by weblink is not allowed on Theologyweb. If you want to bring some points into a discussion, we ask you not just post links to information elsewhere, but to actually quote concise relevant portions of the information in your reply and to contribute your own thoughts and ideas to the discussion.

[Rocky]

Islam in Fast Demise
In Africa Alone Everyday, 16,000 Muslims Leave Islam

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm

By Ali Sina

Hitler said if a lie is repeated often enough and long enough, it would come to be perceived as truth. One such lie often repeated is “Islam is the fastest growing religion”.

Despite the fact that Muslims by virtue of being poor and uneducated are much more reproductive than others, Islam as a religion is not growing but dying fast.

More and more Muslims are discovering that the violence evinced by some of their coreligionists is not an aberration but is inspired by the teachings of the Quran and the examples set by its author. Muslims are becoming disillusioned with Islam. They find out that the mechanistic ritual of praying five times per day, reciting verses that they do not understand and indeed mean nothing, getting up at taxing hours of the morning and abstaining from food and water until the sunset are not means to becoming more spiritual but are instruments to control their mind. These enlightened Muslims no more heed to the fear mongering verses of the Quran that threaten to burn them and roast them in the fires of hell if they dare to think and question the validity of that book.

Every day thousands of Muslim intellectuals are leaving Islam. They find Islam inconsistent with science, logics, human rights and ethics. Millions of Iranians already have left Islam. The enlightened Muslims of other nationalities are not far behind. This is the beginning of a mass exodus from Islam. It is a movement that is already in motion and nothing can stop it.

However the exodus from Islam is not reserved to the intellectuals but also the average Muslims are finding that Islam is not the way to God but to ignorance, poverty and wars. They are leaving Islam to embrace other religions especially the Christianity.

Perhaps it is best to listen to the truth coming from the mouth of the horse. The Internet site aljazeera.net published an interview with Ahmad Al Qataani ÃÍãÏ ÇáÞØÚÇäí An important Islamic cleric who said: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."

What Muslims say among each other, is not the same thing that they say for the consumption of the Westerners.

These are huge numbers. If this trend continues we can expect to see Islam become insignificant in Africa in just a few decades. This is good news for those who are concerned about the on going slavery in Africa and the prospects of war and genocide.

In fact with the weakening of Islam, we can hope to see peace in many war-ridden parts of the world including Palestine. By now it should be clear that any road map to peace between Israel and Palestine will be blocked by the Islamists and the terrorists. Peace in Middle East is not possible as long as Islam is the ideology of the masses.

It is important that we realize that this terrorism that is threatening the peace of the world and these wars that bleed the Muslim nations are not economically motivated but are they are hate motivated. They are religious wars. The weakening of Islam means peace for mankind.

Al Qataani and al Jazeera Network were alarmed by these huge numbers of Muslims leaving Islam, but humanity must rejoice over these numbers. The weakening of Islam means the triumph of mankind.

The following is part of the transcript of Al Jazeera's Interview with Al Qataani translated to English. Here is the original transcript in Arabic



Maher Abdallah:
Dear viewers, peace of Allah be upon you, greetings and welcome to a new episode of the program Islamic Law and Life.

Our topic this evening will be Christianization in the Dark Continent ... Africa. For after Islam was the religion of the majority, the great majority of that continent, the number of Muslims now is no greater than a third of the population. This is taking into consideration, of course, that a large portion of this group are Arab Muslims. No doubt that the missions of evangelization and Christianization played a great role in this demographic shift of Muslims in the continent.

To discuss this topic, it is my pleasure to introduce today a man who is an expert on the issue of evangelization and Christianization in Africa, even though he will concentrate on the issue of Christianization first and foremost…. Sheikh Ahmad Al Qataani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers.

Sheikh Ahmad, welcome to you on the program.

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Greeting to you.

Maher Abdallah:
If we start by inquiring about your strict stance against the Christian missions in Africa, don’t the followers of every religion have the right to seek new converts, exactly as you train and graduate young Muslims to propagate Islam?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
I seek refuge in Allah the Seer, the Knower, from the stoned devil. In the name of Allah the Merciful the Beneficent. Thanks to Allah the One, the Only, the Permanent One, who did not give birth nor was born, to whom no one was equal. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah who has no partners, and I bear witness that our master Muhammed – Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him - is his messenger and seal of prophets; Allah prayers be upon him and his brothers the prophets and messengers and their families.

The question that you pose is a result of not comprehending the difference between the concept of Christianization and the concept of evangelism.

The concept of evangelism: is inviting the non-Christians to the Christian or Nazarene religion, and this is the right of every Christian and the right of every believer to call others to his faith. However, we are talking about a different matter; which is Christianization. Christianization means the following: preparing plans, and executing these plans and evolving these plans to change Muslims into Christians by taking advantage of the ignorance and poverty (of the people) and whatever necessitates from similar circumstances.

So, we are faced with the issue of taking advantage of circumstances, taking advantage of humanitarian needs, taking advantage of the lack of education for example, that these people (missionaries) use to take Muslims out of their religion.

Maher Abdallah:
Fine. This is a big and dangerous phrase. Taking advantage of poverty, of ignorance, of lack of education, of some need is something that a Muslim can also be accused of. So if you don’t back up what you say with examples, with references, your words remain in the air without much weight to them.

Ahmad Al Qataani:
The reality is that these words say a lot less than they should. As we said in the beginning, everyone has the right to invite others to his religion; this is what is known as evangelism (or proselytizing). As for Christianization, no one has the right to take Muslims out of their religion, and you asked for references and the references are too numerous.

Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well
.there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
These numbers are very large indeed …..

Maher Abdallah (interrupting):
Hold on! Let me clarify. Do we have 6 million converting from Islam to Christianity or converting from Islam and other religions?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Great (question)! The other religions are not placed on the list of Christianization; rather they are placed on the list of evangelization. The other religion in Africa is paganism; so it’s Islam, Christianity or paganism. There isn’t something similar to Asia for example where you have Buddhism or Zoroastrianism. In Africa it is just these three, so if you talk about Christianization then it targets the only other heavenly religion which is Islam. As for paganism, those people worship animals and planets and the like.

Maher Abdallah:
So 6 million Muslims a year convert?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Every year ….. In the African nations this century a tragedy happened. Take for example what happened in Ethiopia. Ethiopia is an Arab nation and I am not saying a muslim nation. If any student looks up the word Habasha (Ethiopia) in the book Ocean Dictionary written by Al-Fairuz Abady, he will find that the word Habashat means “people of different tribes” and this is what happened. Ethiopia was a place where Arabs from different tribes would go to live for a while. We all know that Islam entered Ethiopia before Islam entered the city of Medina. We all know that AL-Najashy (the ruler of Ethiopia) was a Muslim. It is mentioned by Al-Darkatny in his biography of the prophet – Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him – that during the month of Rajab in the 9th year of the Hijra (Muslim calendar) that the prophet said to his companions: “Rise up and pray on your brother Al-Najashy.” From that year on the practice of praying on the absent was established. Therefore from the time of the prophet – Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him – Islam entered Ethiopia. So what has happened to Ethiopia?

What happened is that in the days of Emperor Hela Silasi who used to force Muslims to bow to the Christian, and if he refused then he was whipped 45 lashes and jailed between 2 and 5 years. In the year 1948, a massacre occurred at the hands of the Amharic tribes; the Amharic being Christians and collaborators, who continued to slaughter Muslims for 7 months and perform the most horrific acts imaginable. For example they deprived them from the most basic human rights, to the point that they mutilated the male Muslim’s reproductive organs so that no more Muslim children would be born. Ethiopia was rewarded after all these horrific acts; rewarded by being made the head quarters of the African Unity League.

Let us move to another location in Africa, let it be Nigeria. Nigeria is known by Muslims by the name of the Land of Takror. Nigeria was founded at the beginning of the last century by the British, and many Islamic sources mention it’s name as the Land of Tekror. There is even a letter by the reciter Suyuti, who died in the year 911 Hijri, where the title is: Opening the blessed request and relating the hidden openly to the questions of the people of Takror. So there was an established relationship, and they used to send questions to the scholars of Islam, so this letter (of questions) was sent from one of the sheikh scholars of Nigeria that was called Takror to the Muslim scholar AL Suyuti in Egypt and he in turn responded and the contents of this letter are published and printed and is found in the book “The collection Islamic decrees”.

Nigeria’s population is 120 million people, 70% of whom are Muslim. In the 1960’s a British missionary came and declared that he will Christianize North Nigeria, the majority of whom are Muslim. As a result, Ahmad Banulo (from the leaders of the Msulims) was forced at the time to move him to Lagos the capital. As a result the butcher Arorese, that was present at the time, eliminated all the Muslim rulers and killed Ahmad Banulo, why? Because he merely dared to move this missionary who declared that he wishes to Christianize North Nigeria.

In another country, Zanzibar, is an Arabic African nation and I am not saying Muslim. Zanzibar was always connected to the Sultanate of Oman (in the Persian Gulf). Concerning Zanzibar, there was a priest by the name Julius Niriry, president of Tanzania, who annihilated 20,000 Muslims (male and female) with a military force lead by a chicken thief. This thief was imprisoned for being accused of stealing chickens; he was released and asked to command the military brigade that annihilated 20,000 Muslims.

Maher Abdallah:
My dear viewers welcome back to this episode where we are speaking about the topic of Christianization in the African continent and we are speaking with the Sheikh who is observing and following this issue, as each hour Islam loses just under 700 Muslims who join the Christian religion which leads us to the number of 6 million Muslims every year.

Our sir, you mentioned that there are advantages being taken of necessities: poverty, ignorance; what you mentioned then are waves of elimination, waves of religious eradication, and there is no need to call is racial eradication….. However, let us go back to the topic necessity and exploitation. This may have all been in the past; the military expeditions that you spoke of were all in the beginning or middle of the last century, but what is happening today in regards to exploiting necessities?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
What I wanted to say is that these military expeditions and wars paved the way for what we are seeing today; converting 6 million Muslims every year did not happen from nothing, but was a result of what I mentioned earlier.

As for the topic of necessity exploitation, then a nation like Somalia, whose population is 9.5 million people, are all Muslim without exception. There are no Christians or pagans. And if you did find any then they are an insignificant number that are not even on official statistics. A Belgian missionary by the name of Sabeh came to Somalia and purchased 30,000 Muslim youth, he took advantage of their parents poverty, and we all know the terrible situation that Somalia is going through now and what it went through a few years ago. This is taking advantage of a humanitarian need that any human can go through.
I just want to say that I am a muslim. Th reason I came on this site to see somethings that might me important...what you wrote will never be considered anything but garbage. You make all muslims sound like terrorists...you think we do nothing good..well think again! You think the reason there is war, is because of muslims? You brought up Palestine while you were talking about war, and you said that muslims are all converting because they find their religion is basically nonsense..well then why would millions and millions of people give up their lives for the sake of Allah if they found their religion to be considered nothing important.

It seems to me that your not here to talk about Islam, but only here to bring it down! Maybe next time you should think twice before going around and talking about other people's religion! If you have something reasonable to say then say it, if not then what can i say except that you really need a life!

[bhukkadakota]

It is unfair to critisize the whole of islam by the actions of a minority of their members. Because most christians live in developed first world countries, they have no idea what its like to live in the middle east amidst oppression. If situations were reversed and the middle east was the super power and the USA was the third world country do you still think there would be groups like al qaeda?

When islam first spread across europe, they were the most tolerant religion around. Contrary to most peoples beliefs, they let christians and jews worship as normal. Jews actually moved out of the roman empire to live in islamic cities. Muhammad's last preach was about ending slavery saying all men are created equal.

[Krusader]

REally fast demise? Tell that to the christians in texas that convert-


http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/believeitornot/texas1.html
Please provide stats for the claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States. I just read stats claiming that Seventh-Day Adventists were the fastest going sect.

There's a lot of Muslim propaganda out there, and stats aren't hard to manipulate.

[CatholicSage]

When islam first spread across europe, they were the most tolerant religion around. Contrary to most peoples beliefs, they let christians and jews worship as normal. Jews actually moved out of the roman empire to live in islamic cities. Muhammad's last preach was about ending slavery saying all men are created equal.

Most tolerant religion around? That is absolute rubbish, and if you can answer the question "How did Islam first spread across the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, etc.?" you'll know why. Mohammed was a barbarian in the same vein as Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan, only he had the status of a prophet as well.

[Rocky]

Most tolerant religion around? That is absolute rubbish, and if you can answer the question "How did Islam first spread across the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, etc.?" you'll know why. Mohammed was a barbarian in the same vein as Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan, only he had the status of a prophet as well.
LutheranSage,
So you know all this how? Do you have any proof to support anything your saying? Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) wasn't a barbarian! God had given him the Quran, and chose him to guide mankind in the right direction. I don't think any prophet was a "barbarian."

[Rocky]

Please provide stats for the claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States. I just read stats claiming that Seventh-Day Adventists were the fastest going sect.

There's a lot of Muslim propaganda out there, and stats aren't hard to manipulate.
Crusader,
You can go to this site, it says that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S.
http://www.islamonline.net/english/discover/discover10.shtml

[sylas]

There's a lot of Muslim propaganda out there, and stats aren't hard to manipulate.

Crusader,
You can go to this site, it says that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S.
http://www.islamonline.net/english/discover/discover10.shtml

You're proving his point. The site you mention is precisely the kind of partisan site that should be ignored as useless. They don't give any reference for the claim, and the only number quoted (over 7 million Muslims in the USA) is grossly inflated.

The site www.adherents.com has this to say about statistics for Islam.
Islam. Muslim leaders in the United States optimistically estimate that there are approximately 6.5 million Muslims in the country (Aly Abuzaakouk, American Muslim Council, 1999). More recent newspaper accounts (2001) frequently refer to an estimated 8 million American Muslims. This would equate to 3% of the U.S. population, or roughly 1 in every 33 people in the country. No comparable figure has been confirmed by independent research similar to the Kosmin or Glenmary studies, or the Gallup, Harris, Barna. polls. Currently, surveys consistently report less than 1% of people surveyed identify themselves as Muslims. Muslim community leaders say that many American Muslims are relatively recent immigrants who either do not have telephone service, or do not participate in surveys. Researchers generally agree that the estimate of 300,000 Muslims in the Kosmin study (1990) and Kosmin's adjusted estimate (to 500,000) are too small to reflect current (year 2001) numbers of American Muslims. The latest edition (2000) of the annual Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches estimates 3,950,000 Muslims in America. According to a study released by the American Jewish Committee in October 2001, the highest possible realistic estimate for the current number of Muslims in the United States is 2.8 million.Taken from Largest Religious Groups in the United States of America (http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html) at www.adherents.com
Adherents tends to prefer the American Religious Identification Survey (http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/aris_index.htm) (ARIS) numbers; but they list many other estimates in their database.

Measured in raw numbers, Christianity grows faster. (Due to the fact that it is the largest religious group; raw increase is due simply to population increase, and so this increase means very little. Christianity is declining as a proportion.)

Measured in percentages, there are several groups that increase much faster. (Smaller groups have a big advantage here.) Bah'ai and Sikhism, for example, increase much faster over the last ten years, according to American Religious Identification Survey (http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/aris_index.htm), and Wiccan increase has been enormous.

According to ARIS, the greatest increase, in both absolute and relative terms, is in those who do not subscribe to any religious identification. Whether people see this as good, bad or indifferent, it should not be a great surprise to active TheologyWeb members.

Most observers appear to agree that the major factor contributing to growth of Islam in the USA is birth rate and immigration. Measurement of how people move between different religious identifications is a quite distinct matter to simple growth in numbers.

According to ARIS, Islam is gaining more converts than it is losing; but non-denominational Christian, evangelical Christian, and no religion are all way ahead of Islam by this measure. Some of the large groups (Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) are losing out here. Baptists and Lutherans hold steady (slight decrease).

Cheers -- Sylas

[CatholicSage]

LutheranSage,
So you know all this how? Do you have any proof to support anything your saying? Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) wasn't a barbarian! God had given him the Quran, and chose him to guide mankind in the right direction. I don't think any prophet was a "barbarian."

Proof? It is common historical knowledge that Mohammed and his successors conquered a large chunk of Christendom, the former Roman Empire. That is not tolerant at all. I believe my comparison of Mohammed to Genghis Khan and Attila is apt; all three made unprovoked conquests and formed large empires out of already-civilized territories.

[Krusader]

Proof? It is common historical knowledge that Mohammed and his successors conquered a large chunk of Christendom, the former Roman Empire. That is not tolerant at all. I believe my comparison of Mohammed to Genghis Khan and Attila is apt; all three made unprovoked conquests and formed large empires out of already-civilized territories.
And let's also remember that Baptists, for instance, only count baptized members in their stats. Furthermore, they only baptize adults.

I'd bet that the Muslims are counting their children.

[bhukkadakota]

The tolerance of the religion has nothing to do with the land conquered by islam. Muhammad died around the year 630 and only united the arab tribes under one god , it was his successors abu bakr and then umar who conquered alot.

Islam was the most tolerant in that they let other religions live in the states and carry on normal lives unlikes christianity who under heraclius tried to stamp out all other religions in the roman empire. Thats why people such as jews were MOVING INTO THE ISLAMIC EMPIRE because they were the most tolerant, do you understand now? There were also alot of christians living islamic cities.

Even though genghis kahn and attila the hun did achieve great things, it is not correct to compare them with muhammad, muhammad started a movement and united a nation under one god and gave them hope which allowed them to rise above the roman and persian empires and their respective religions christianity and zoroastrianism.

[Krusader]

The tolerance of the religion has nothing to do with the land conquered by islam. Muhammad died around the year 630 and only united the arab tribes under one god , it was his successors abu bakr and then umar who conquered alot.

Islam was the most tolerant in that they let other religions live in the states and carry on normal lives unlikes christianity who under heraclius tried to stamp out all other religions in the roman empire. Thats why people such as jews were MOVING INTO THE ISLAMIC EMPIRE because they were the most tolerant, do you understand now? There were also alot of christians living islamic cities.

Even though genghis kahn and attila the hun did achieve great things, it is not correct to compare them with muhammad, muhammad started a movement and united a nation under one god and gave them hope which allowed them to rise above the roman and persian empires and their respective religions christianity and zoroastrianism.
Christians were considered to be second-class citizens. They had to pay a special tax because they were Christians, and they had to be "humiliated." Muslims were advised to push them into the street as they passed.

Christians were not allowed to build new churches or repair old ones. Muslims were allowed to stay in Christian churches as long as they desired.

Muslims wishing to put their faith in Christ and become Christians became subject to the death penalty - and still are. Recently, a Pakistani gentleman who embraced Christ was murdered for leaving Islam.

How would Muslims like it if, when they immigrate to the US, they were made to pay a special religion tax, could not build mosques, and were subject to humiliation?

Muslims just cannot be objective about the failure of Islam to be just to all men.

[CatholicSage]

The tolerance of the religion has nothing to do with the land conquered by islam. Muhammad died around the year 630 and only united the arab tribes under one god , it was his successors abu bakr and then umar who conquered alot.


I would certainly be willing to separate the tolerance of the religion from the conquests of those professing it if the foundation of the religion were not so closely related to these individuals. The conquests for Islam were the equivalent of Jesus or Paul leading conquests for Christianity; in such cases where direct founders are involved, the religion cannot be separated from the actions.


Islam was the most tolerant in that they let other religions live in the states and carry on normal lives unlikes christianity who under heraclius tried to stamp out all other religions in the roman empire.


They tolerated Christians and Jews to an extent once they conquered Christian lands in the first place, but they were certainly not allowed to live normally. And I don't see anything wrong with those Roman emperors who tried to make Christianity the universal religion of the empire at the expense of other religions, as long as violence toward those of other faiths was not the policy (though it did happen at times). The Romans' fear of Islam was well-justified.


Thats why people such as jews were MOVING INTO THE ISLAMIC EMPIRE because they were the most tolerant, do you understand now? There were also alot of christians living islamic cities.


None of this is surprising, because the Christians and Jews were there long before the Muslims.


Even though genghis kahn and attila the hun did achieve great things, it is not correct to compare them with muhammad,


Great things? I think you may have missed my point. I do not admire these three for what they did; on the contrary, I think the world would have been better off if they had never been born.


muhammad started a movement and united a nation under one god and gave them hope which allowed them to rise above the roman and persian empires and their respective religions christianity and zoroastrianism.

Uh, the nation in question was already primarily Christian by the time of Mohammed; it had been officially Christian for two centuries, and was not Christianized by invasion.

[bhukkadakota]

The nation im talking about was arabia which was not a jewish or christian nation before. However as abu bakr was the second to convert to islam i agree with your point that the conquest and religion should not be separated in this action. Christianity also conquered lands in the name of christ and there are many nations turned christian through invasion and conversions by the sword. And islam also converted many people by the book just like christianity.

How can you give one side so much criticism and the other so much praise when they essentially did the same thing?

Crusader, you cannot compare the past times and now, the USA and other first world countries are much more civilised than in ancient times and much more open to other cultures. Unfortunately it seems muslim nations has taken a step backwards since late antiquity in their views.

[CatholicSage]

The nation im talking about was arabia which was not a jewish or christian nation before.


Noted, though in that case I don't think there was any attempt at least on the Roman side to enter into the whole of the Arabian peninsula.


However as abu bakr was the second to convert to islam i agree with your point that the conquest and religion should not be separated in this action. Christianity also conquered lands in the name of christ and there are many nations turned christian through invasion and conversions by the sword.


I'm sorry, but Christianity did not conquer lands in the name of Christ. The only events that could be considered conquest in the name of Christ would be the Crusades, and they were less outright conquest than legitimate counterattacks against Islam, which was in an almost continual period of expansion since Mohammed.

You may also be referring to the later European colonial empires throughout the world, but these were not done in the name of Christ. It is true that many of these colonies became Christian because of missionary activity after the colonial conquest, but there was no inherent religious cause of European colonialism.


And islam also converted many people by the book just like christianity.


I completely acknowledge this, and I believe that the largest Islamic nation in the world right now (Indonesia) was Islamized by the book, but that does not change the original facts of the rise of Islam.


How can you give one side so much criticism and the other so much praise when they essentially did the same thing?


Actually, I think they are fundamentally different. Christianity rose to its initial prominence in the Roman Empire gradually and peacefully, and only after this long establishment were there ever a few wars of religion. Islam, on the other hand, was firmly established by the sword of Mohammed, and only after this were missionaries ever used.

[Rocky]

LutheranSage,
what sword of Mohammed are you talking about?

[Rocky]

Christians were considered to be second-class citizens. They had to pay a special tax because they were Christians, and they had to be "humiliated." Muslims were advised to push them into the street as they passed.
They had to pay special taxes? where did you get that from? Also, they had to payn the taxes just for being there, and not following islam, or were there other reasons?

[CatholicSage]

LutheranSage,
what sword of Mohammed are you talking about?

I don't mean a literal sword (though he probably had one), I mean his command of a military force.

[Krusader]

They had to pay special taxes? where did you get that from? Also, they had to payn the taxes just for being there, and not following islam, or were there other reasons?
Rocky, Muslims subjected Christians and other "people of the Book," to a special "poll tax." By the wayl, this comes directly from the Quran. Non-Muslims were to pay this tax in "all humiliation." Christians are regarded as "dhimmis." You can read more about this by doing an internet search, or by going to such websites as "Answering Islam."

[Jude3b]

A Couple of questions:

Does anyone know the actual world wide statistics or numbers and rates of growth/decline for Islam and Christianity?

Is the number of Muslims leaving Islam in Africa more or less than those new additions to Islam, throughout the world - because of their huge child birth rates?

How is Christian evangelism able to operate in Muslim countries? What methods seem to work best? Surely, one billion people is way to many for us to just sit back and let them all go to Hell. How can we best reach dear Muslim people with the Message of Love and Forgiveness - available only in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

[Jude3b]

Islam in Fast Demise
In Africa Alone Everyday, 16,000 Muslims Leave Islam

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm

By Ali Sina

Hitler said if a lie is repeated often enough and long enough, it would come to be perceived as truth. One such lie often repeated is “Islam is the fastest growing religion”.

Despite the fact that Muslims by virtue of being poor and uneducated are much more reproductive than others, Islam as a religion is not growing but dying fast.

More and more Muslims are discovering that the violence evinced by some of their coreligionists is not an aberration but is inspired by the teachings of the Quran and the examples set by its author. Muslims are becoming disillusioned with Islam. They find out that the mechanistic ritual of praying five times per day, reciting verses that they do not understand and indeed mean nothing, getting up at taxing hours of the morning and abstaining from food and water until the sunset are not means to becoming more spiritual but are instruments to control their mind. These enlightened Muslims no more heed to the fear mongering verses of the Quran that threaten to burn them and roast them in the fires of hell if they dare to think and question the validity of that book.

Every day thousands of Muslim intellectuals are leaving Islam. They find Islam inconsistent with science, logics, human rights and ethics. Millions of Iranians already have left Islam. The enlightened Muslims of other nationalities are not far behind. This is the beginning of a mass exodus from Islam. It is a movement that is already in motion and nothing can stop it.

However the exodus from Islam is not reserved to the intellectuals but also the average Muslims are finding that Islam is not the way to God but to ignorance, poverty and wars. They are leaving Islam to embrace other religions especially the Christianity.

Perhaps it is best to listen to the truth coming from the mouth of the horse. The Internet site aljazeera.net published an interview with Ahmad Al Qataani ÃÍãÏ ÇáÞØÚÇäí An important Islamic cleric who said: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."

What Muslims say among each other, is not the same thing that they say for the consumption of the Westerners.

These are huge numbers. If this trend continues we can expect to see Islam become insignificant in Africa in just a few decades. This is good news for those who are concerned about the on going slavery in Africa and the prospects of war and genocide.

In fact with the weakening of Islam, we can hope to see peace in many war-ridden parts of the world including Palestine. By now it should be clear that any road map to peace between Israel and Palestine will be blocked by the Islamists and the terrorists. Peace in Middle East is not possible as long as Islam is the ideology of the masses.

It is important that we realize that this terrorism that is threatening the peace of the world and these wars that bleed the Muslim nations are not economically motivated but are they are hate motivated. They are religious wars. The weakening of Islam means peace for mankind.

Al Qataani and al Jazeera Network were alarmed by these huge numbers of Muslims leaving Islam, but humanity must rejoice over these numbers. The weakening of Islam means the triumph of mankind.

The following is part of the transcript of Al Jazeera's Interview with Al Qataani translated to English. Here is the original transcript in Arabic



Maher Abdallah:
Dear viewers, peace of Allah be upon you, greetings and welcome to a new episode of the program Islamic Law and Life.

Our topic this evening will be Christianization in the Dark Continent ... Africa. For after Islam was the religion of the majority, the great majority of that continent, the number of Muslims now is no greater than a third of the population. This is taking into consideration, of course, that a large portion of this group are Arab Muslims. No doubt that the missions of evangelization and Christianization played a great role in this demographic shift of Muslims in the continent.

To discuss this topic, it is my pleasure to introduce today a man who is an expert on the issue of evangelization and Christianization in Africa, even though he will concentrate on the issue of Christianization first and foremost…. Sheikh Ahmad Al Qataani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers.

Sheikh Ahmad, welcome to you on the program.

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Greeting to you.

Maher Abdallah:
If we start by inquiring about your strict stance against the Christian missions in Africa, don’t the followers of every religion have the right to seek new converts, exactly as you train and graduate young Muslims to propagate Islam?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
I seek refuge in Allah the Seer, the Knower, from the stoned devil. In the name of Allah the Merciful the Beneficent. Thanks to Allah the One, the Only, the Permanent One, who did not give birth nor was born, to whom no one was equal. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah who has no partners, and I bear witness that our master Muhammed – Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him - is his messenger and seal of prophets; Allah prayers be upon him and his brothers the prophets and messengers and their families.

The question that you pose is a result of not comprehending the difference between the concept of Christianization and the concept of evangelism.

The concept of evangelism: is inviting the non-Christians to the Christian or Nazarene religion, and this is the right of every Christian and the right of every believer to call others to his faith. However, we are talking about a different matter; which is Christianization. Christianization means the following: preparing plans, and executing these plans and evolving these plans to change Muslims into Christians by taking advantage of the ignorance and poverty (of the people) and whatever necessitates from similar circumstances.

So, we are faced with the issue of taking advantage of circumstances, taking advantage of humanitarian needs, taking advantage of the lack of education for example, that these people (missionaries) use to take Muslims out of their religion.

Maher Abdallah:
Fine. This is a big and dangerous phrase. Taking advantage of poverty, of ignorance, of lack of education, of some need is something that a Muslim can also be accused of. So if you don’t back up what you say with examples, with references, your words remain in the air without much weight to them.

Ahmad Al Qataani:
The reality is that these words say a lot less than they should. As we said in the beginning, everyone has the right to invite others to his religion; this is what is known as evangelism (or proselytizing). As for Christianization, no one has the right to take Muslims out of their religion, and you asked for references and the references are too numerous.

Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well
.there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
These numbers are very large indeed …..

Maher Abdallah (interrupting):
Hold on! Let me clarify. Do we have 6 million converting from Islam to Christianity or converting from Islam and other religions?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Great (question)! The other religions are not placed on the list of Christianization; rather they are placed on the list of evangelization. The other religion in Africa is paganism; so it’s Islam, Christianity or paganism. There isn’t something similar to Asia for example where you have Buddhism or Zoroastrianism. In Africa it is just these three, so if you talk about Christianization then it targets the only other heavenly religion which is Islam. As for paganism, those people worship animals and planets and the like.

Maher Abdallah:
So 6 million Muslims a year convert?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
Every year ….. In the African nations this century a tragedy happened. Take for example what happened in Ethiopia. Ethiopia is an Arab nation and I am not saying a muslim nation. If any student looks up the word Habasha (Ethiopia) in the book Ocean Dictionary written by Al-Fairuz Abady, he will find that the word Habashat means “people of different tribes” and this is what happened. Ethiopia was a place where Arabs from different tribes would go to live for a while. We all know that Islam entered Ethiopia before Islam entered the city of Medina. We all know that AL-Najashy (the ruler of Ethiopia) was a Muslim. It is mentioned by Al-Darkatny in his biography of the prophet – Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him – that during the month of Rajab in the 9th year of the Hijra (Muslim calendar) that the prophet said to his companions: “Rise up and pray on your brother Al-Najashy.” From that year on the practice of praying on the absent was established. Therefore from the time of the prophet – Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him – Islam entered Ethiopia. So what has happened to Ethiopia?

What happened is that in the days of Emperor Hela Silasi who used to force Muslims to bow to the Christian, and if he refused then he was whipped 45 lashes and jailed between 2 and 5 years. In the year 1948, a massacre occurred at the hands of the Amharic tribes; the Amharic being Christians and collaborators, who continued to slaughter Muslims for 7 months and perform the most horrific acts imaginable. For example they deprived them from the most basic human rights, to the point that they mutilated the male Muslim’s reproductive organs so that no more Muslim children would be born. Ethiopia was rewarded after all these horrific acts; rewarded by being made the head quarters of the African Unity League.

Let us move to another location in Africa, let it be Nigeria. Nigeria is known by Muslims by the name of the Land of Takror. Nigeria was founded at the beginning of the last century by the British, and many Islamic sources mention it’s name as the Land of Tekror. There is even a letter by the reciter Suyuti, who died in the year 911 Hijri, where the title is: Opening the blessed request and relating the hidden openly to the questions of the people of Takror. So there was an established relationship, and they used to send questions to the scholars of Islam, so this letter (of questions) was sent from one of the sheikh scholars of Nigeria that was called Takror to the Muslim scholar AL Suyuti in Egypt and he in turn responded and the contents of this letter are published and printed and is found in the book “The collection Islamic decrees”.

Nigeria’s population is 120 million people, 70% of whom are Muslim. In the 1960’s a British missionary came and declared that he will Christianize North Nigeria, the majority of whom are Muslim. As a result, Ahmad Banulo (from the leaders of the Msulims) was forced at the time to move him to Lagos the capital. As a result the butcher Arorese, that was present at the time, eliminated all the Muslim rulers and killed Ahmad Banulo, why? Because he merely dared to move this missionary who declared that he wishes to Christianize North Nigeria.

In another country, Zanzibar, is an Arabic African nation and I am not saying Muslim. Zanzibar was always connected to the Sultanate of Oman (in the Persian Gulf). Concerning Zanzibar, there was a priest by the name Julius Niriry, president of Tanzania, who annihilated 20,000 Muslims (male and female) with a military force lead by a chicken thief. This thief was imprisoned for being accused of stealing chickens; he was released and asked to command the military brigade that annihilated 20,000 Muslims.

Maher Abdallah:
My dear viewers welcome back to this episode where we are speaking about the topic of Christianization in the African continent and we are speaking with the Sheikh who is observing and following this issue, as each hour Islam loses just under 700 Muslims who join the Christian religion which leads us to the number of 6 million Muslims every year.

Our sir, you mentioned that there are advantages being taken of necessities: poverty, ignorance; what you mentioned then are waves of elimination, waves of religious eradication, and there is no need to call is racial eradication….. However, let us go back to the topic necessity and exploitation. This may have all been in the past; the military expeditions that you spoke of were all in the beginning or middle of the last century, but what is happening today in regards to exploiting necessities?

Ahmad Al Qataani:
What I wanted to say is that these military expeditions and wars paved the way for what we are seeing today; converting 6 million Muslims every year did not happen from nothing, but was a result of what I mentioned earlier.

As for the topic of necessity exploitation, then a nation like Somalia, whose population is 9.5 million people, are all Muslim without exception. There are no Christians or pagans. And if you did find any then they are an insignificant number that are not even on official statistics. A Belgian missionary by the name of Sabeh came to Somalia and purchased 30,000 Muslim youth, he took advantage of their parents poverty, and we all know the terrible situation that Somalia is going through now and what it went through a few years ago. This is taking advantage of a humanitarian need that any human can go through.

Dear Dr. T:

I have no way of knowing if your statistics are accurate. Let me ask you this question please. With the Tsunami in Asia and the killing of so many Muslims from it and the fact that Christians will play such a large part in helping the people in Indonesia and other areas to recover. Do you see that this will speed up the conversion of Muslims to Christianity in any way?

[Snarf]

A Couple of questions:

Does anyone know the actual world wide statistics or numbers and rates of growth/decline for Islam and Christianity?

Is the number of Muslims leaving Islam in Africa more or less than those new additions to Islam, throughout the world - because of their huge child birth rates?

How is Christian evangelism able to operate in Muslim countries? What methods seem to work best? Surely, one billion people is way to many for us to just sit back and let them all go to Hell. How can we best reach dear Muslim people with the Message of Love and Forgiveness - available only in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

I hope all Muslims stay Muslims, and don't convert. Your message to the "dear Muslim people" has been this so far: that Muslims are responsible for all of the world's terrorism, and that their leader was an evil murderer.
Who are you kidding? You don't want to love Muslims, you want to eliminate them.

Of course, it is possible that your enemy may be in fact correct and that it is you who are going to Hell....

[Jude3b]

I hope all Muslims stay Muslims, and don't convert. Your message to the "dear Muslim people" has been this so far: that Muslims are responsible for all of the world's terrorism, and that their leader was an evil murderer.
Who are you kidding? You don't want to love Muslims, you want to eliminate them.

Of course, it is possible that your enemy may be in fact correct and that it is you who are going to Hell....

Snarf, you say that you hope all Muslims stay Muslims, and don't convert. That doesn't surprise me in the least, coming from an Anti-Christ like you. You obviously could care less about who ends up in Hell.

[Snarf]

Snarf, you say that you hope all Muslims stay Muslims, and don't convert. That doesn't surprise me in the least, coming from an Anti-Christ like you. You obviously could care less about who ends up in Hell.

Yes, it is time to reveal myself as the one spoken of in revelations (giggle, giggle, HAHAHA!!!!)

1) The Bible doesn't say that Muslims are going to Hell
2) You, Jude, do not have any say over who goes if there is one
(your self-election as Judge aside).
3) Your chief desire remains the elimination of Muslims, by one means or another. Elimination in this case means that you want them to stop being Muslims. You ask them to do what you yourself will not do.
4) Your so-called love for them is betrayed by your demonization of Muslims, and constantly insulting that which is sacred to them, that makes them Muslims.

People with hateful attitudes towards other religions, who demonize followers of other religions, do so because they want violence, and seek to incite it in any way they can.
"Anyone who claims to love God yet hates his brother is a liar."

[Jude3b]

Yes, it is time to reveal myself as the one spoken of in revelations (giggle, giggle, HAHAHA!!!!)

1) The Bible doesn't say that Muslims are going to Hell
2) You, Jude, do not have any say over who goes if there is one
(your self-election as Judge aside).
3) Your chief desire remains the elimination of Muslims, by one means or another. Elimination in this case means that you want them to stop being Muslims. You ask them to do what you yourself will not do.
4) Your so-called love for them is betrayed by your demonization of Muslims, and constantly insulting that which is sacred to them, that makes them Muslims.

People with hateful attitudes towards other religions, who demonize followers of other religions, do so because they want violence, and seek to incite it in any way they can.
"Anyone who claims to love God yet hates his brother is a liar."

Snarf:

The Bible does state that "the..., unbelieving,...murderers,... idolaters,... shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,..." (Rev. 21:8).

Muslims do not believe On and trust Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior - and that makes them "unbelieving. Radical Islamists who murder in the name of Allah and Islam are not "martyrs" as they claim but instead they are "Murderers," and anyone who places "their religion" before God and His Word is an "Idolater" - and all of these qualify anyone, including Muslims to spend eternity in a Hell that was created for the Devil and his demons.

My only desire for Muslims, or anyone else for that matter - including you Snarf is the same desire that the Lord Jesus Christ has, namely:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE." (2 Peter 3:9).

You have said in other posts that you are a Christian. You also have said many hateful things about Christians and Christianity. If you are truly a Christian and you post so often against Christians (who are your brothers if you are a Christian), it would really seem that your last quote above actually applies to you.

"He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him." (I John 2:10). Do you abide in the light SNARF?

[Snarf]

Snarf:

The Bible does state that "the..., unbelieving,...murderers,... idolaters,... shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,..." (Rev. 21:8).

Muslims do not believe On and trust Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior - and that makes them "unbelieving. Radical Islamists who murder in the name of Allah and Islam are not "martyrs" as they claim but instead they are "Murderers," and anyone who places "their religion" before God and His Word is an "Idolater" - and all of these qualify anyone, including Muslims to spend eternity in a Hell that was created for the Devil and his demons.

My only desire for Muslims, or anyone else for that matter - including you Snarf is the same desire that the Lord Jesus Christ has, namely:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE." (2 Peter 3:9).

You have said in other posts that you are a Christian. You also have said many hateful things about Christians and Christianity. If you are truly a Christian and you post so often against Christians (who are your brothers if you are a Christian), it would really seem that your last quote above actually applies to you.

"He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him." (I John 2:10). Do you abide in the light SNARF? Your lies:
"Nevertheless, it appears that throughout the world today, that nearly all terrorists are Muslims."

"I have been wondering why so many Muslims are signing up in Iran to be Suicide bombers. I think I have found the reason: Isn't it their only sure way to get to heaven (they think)?"


Revelations 21:8
"8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all LIARS–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Emphasis on liars, so does that include Christian liars, Jude?

What hateful things have I said about Christianity? If you tell lies about Muslims, why should you not be corrected?


Snarf, we take accusations of lying very seriously here at TWEB. If you can't back up your claims by proving someone intentionally lied, then you better not make those accusations. When you disagree with something someone said, or you just think they are wrong in what they said, that does not constitute lying on their part. They might just be sincerely wrong, or YOU might be the one who is sincerely wrong. That is what debate is for.

[InChristAlways]

A Couple of questions:

Does anyone know the actual world wide statistics or numbers and rates of growth/decline for Islam and Christianity?

Is the number of Muslims leaving Islam in Africa more or less than those new additions to Islam, throughout the world - because of their huge child birth rates?

How is Christian evangelism able to operate in Muslim countries? What methods seem to work best? Surely, one billion people is way to many for us to just sit back and let them all go to Hell. How can we best reach dear Muslim people with the Message of Love and Forgiveness - available only in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? If Christians don't show the light of Christ to others in the spirit of Love, compassion, kindness, then we also blaspheme God by disobeying the commandments of Christ- Love God and others(as the jews were accused of in Romansromans 2:23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. Since coming to Christ a year and half ago, I have come to know what it is like to be to others as I would want them to be to me. God didn't say the world would be without evil, but those that do come to His Son Jesus would be at peace and share that with others, whether it is muslims, Israelites/jews, Hindus, blacks etc. We don't have to try and convert someone, as our deeds and Christ like spirit will be our witness to form any change in a person, then it is up to God after that.
My whole outlook on the world and people has changed since reading the Bible and accepting the faith that is of the Name of Jesus and God the father. I would hope muslims don't lump all christians together just as I don't lump all of them together. I find it very difficult to hate anyone myself and those that do hate are not of God. God bless.
romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but [rather] give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. [i]20 Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Jude3b]

If Christians don't show the light of Christ to others in the spirit of Love, compassion, kindness, then we also blaspheme God by disobeying the commandments of Christ- Love God and others(as the jews were accused of in RomansSince coming to Christ a year and half ago, I have come to know what it is like to be to others as I would want them to be to me. God didn't say the world would be without evil, but those that do come to His Son Jesus would be at peace and share that with others, whether it is muslims, Israelites/jews, Hindus, blacks etc. We don't have to try and convert someone, as our deeds and Christ like spirit will be our witness to form any change in a person, then it is up to God after that.
My whole outlook on the world and people has changed since reading the Bible and accepting the faith that is of the Name of Jesus and God the father. I would hope muslims don't lump all christians together just as I don't lump all of them together. I find it very difficult to hate anyone myself and those that do hate are not of God. God bless.

Dear InChristAlways:

Thank you for your Post. Love really is the key. No matter what, Christians must act out of a motive of Love.

Its like Peter wrote:

"But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. And above all things have fervent LOVE for one another, for love will cover a multitude of sins." (I Peter 4:7 & 8)