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burgy
December 10th 2003, 12:30 PM
God works outside of time. I sort of always (since I became a Xtian at age 31) believed that -- but it was head knowledge. It became real later.

Here is the story, just as I told it to my church family. A somewhat better format of it is on my web site, along with pictures of the two children involved.
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This is a true story.
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I've talked before about false "Christian" storytellers. I thought I'd tell you a story I know to be true. At least it is as true as the collective memory of Carol, my beloved wife, & I can make it.

This is the story as I told it at a preaching service at the Durango First Presbyterian Church in August 1998. It is a story of when God acted "out of our time sequence."

It was very tempting to embellish it -- when I first wrote it out for an Emmaus weekend several years ago, I found myself adding details that were not part of our memories -- they were "possible history," but not history I could attest to. I took these out, because I wanted to be able to say, truthfully, the story was as factual as I could make it. I think it is just that. I hope you enjoy reading it -- it is in the form, partially, of notes.

John Burgeson


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These are notes for a talk I gave
at the First Presbyterian Church, Durango, Colorado,
August 2, 1998,
at both morning services.

John W. Burgeson
6731 CR 203
Durango, CO 81301

BurgyTwo@Juno.com


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The scripture lesson is I Samuel 3:1-10; 19
followed by Philippians 4:19


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Some story about Samuel!
He heard the very voice of God!

I've many times wanted to have that experience.
Never have though. But yet --

I'm going to tell you a story.

Think about January. Remember what it's like?

Picture with me a downtown street in Seoul, Korea
Friday, January 25, 1974. A few years ago.

Snow -- ice -- slush -- maybe freezing rain --
Dark. Gloomy. Unlike Durango!

An unpleasant time of year.

Two children walking along that street.
the boy is four, his sister is just two.
Her birthday was four days ago;
it was not a happy time.

The boy's right hand
(his left one is hurt)
is holding on tightly to little sister..
And her hand to his.

It's a miserable day
to be out in the cold.
It's a terrible day to be homeless.

It's a ghastly day to be orphans,
in a culture where orphans are "nobodies."

Last year was a disaster.
The little girl had been badly burned.
Mother died of "the sickness" last spring.
The boy's left hand mutilated in a farm accident.

The worse time of all came, however,
at Christmas time,
in the car crash,
when dad died.

The boy had seen it happen.
He remembered the flames.

Their home was a rental,
their possessions few.
No relatives.

A neighbor took them in for awhile.
But she couldn't keep them.

Now they are walking along this dismal city street
-- to an orphanage.

They'll be looked after there, more or less,
raised to adulthood, if they live;
the mortality rate is said to be 50%.

No family to love and nurture them;
adoption is not part of the Korean culture.

Their future is an institution;

the only love they will experience
is that which they have for each other.

It's cold in the city.

Two small children trudge up the dirty steps
of an impersonal, poorly-funded, overcrowded
government institution, their lives shattered.

Hand in hand they go.
Holding ever so tight to each other.

It's a dreadful day. Nobody cares.


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I misspoke.

God cared. He had already been at work --
months earlier.

Sunday, August 12, 1973. The previous year.
Delray Beach, Florida.

With a growing family,
Carol and I had bought an unfinished house.
We were spending every available hour working on it,
keeping just ahead of the city building inspector!

It was a bigger job than we had imagined.

That Sunday we decided to skip our own church
for one down the block
where we could "sneak in/out" easily
and get back to the job early.

The kids settled in Sunday School,
we walked into the only adult class.

Oh no!
A retired missionary is going to lecture on a Psalm!
What have we done? Will we be able to stay awake?

Maybe we should go have a cup of coffee?

We stayed.

I don't remember the guy's name --
Don't remember his message!
But, oh my! I do remember the Scripture!
God's word. It burned! Deep.

Psalm 127: (Paraphrased)

Unless the Lord builds the house,
their labor is futile who build it.

It is useless for you to be early in rising
while being late in sitting up,
eating the bread of toil;
for he gives to His loved ones sleep.

Behold, children are a legacy from the Lord;
the fruit of the womb is His reward.
As arrows in the hand of a mighty man,
so are the children of one's youth.

Blessed is the man who has his quiver full of them.

Back home, Carol left on an errand,
the kids to whatever activities kids do,
on a warm Sunday afternoon
when dad's orders for house-building chores have mysteriously stopped.

I sat at the kitchen table
and pondered the message I had so clearly heard.
We had six children already, one adopted.
Resources were at the limit.

All the practical reasons in the world to ignore this word from the Lord.

That wasn't possible.

I drafted a letter to the adoption agency,
asking them for -- specifically -- a brother/sister pair;
I could "see" them as I wrote. Then I stopped.

"How am I going to explain this letter to Carol?" I asked myself.

Carol came in -- "I've just written a letter..." I began -- she stopped me.

(Here I'm reading from her notes, written shortly afterwards).

"Please let it wait. I need to tell you of the most fascinating thought I had. I think God is trying to tell us to have two more babies from Korea, a boy and a girl. That lesson we heard this morning seemed to really speak to me!"

I showed her the letter.

Family council.

Unanimous consent.

The letter, signed by all the family,
down to the very youngest,
Daniel,
not quite four,
was mailed the next day.

The Lord had a test -- and a confirmation -- for us.

Now it's five months later. Monday, January 21, 1974.
A letter from the agency;
we were approved! Praise the Lord!
(Bureaucracies don't generally move that fast!).

Then, turn to page 2.
Devastation!

They had no brother/sister pair to fit our family!
They were suggesting a single adoption.

But this was wrong!

The Lord had told us differently!

Had He, really?

On Wednesday, January 23rd, 1974,
after considerable prayer,
we wrote back.

In essence, we said:

We're right

You're wrong.

We'll wait.

The Lord had promised us.
He enabled.

Two days later,
on January 25, 1974,
our beloved son
and our beloved daughter,
Byung Tae Jung, and Byung Tae Soon,
(David and Mary Lee),
entered the orphanage;

shortly after, they arrived into our home,
and lives,
and hearts.

God's plan.
Not ours.
We just did the physical stuff.

Oh God! What if we had left that class that day!

When I was a boy in Sunday School,
there was a hymn we sang.

I did not appreciate it then.
I believe it --
really believe it now:

When you walk with the Lord,
In the light of His word,
What a GLORY he shines on your way...

I have seen that glory...

Will you sing that hymn with me now?


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The Blessing & Charge:

Reading again from I Samuel 3:1 & 2
(Berkeley version):

In those days, a word from the Lord was rare...

But one day it happened.

One day it happened to us.

May it happen to you.

Go with God.


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John W. Burgeson, August 1998

bar Jonah
December 10th 2003, 12:33 PM
This little story is evidence that God works outside of time? :huh:

I fail to see how... and I'd stack scripture against someone's personal (and temporal) experiences any day.

Care to show us some scripture that backs up this view?

burgy
December 10th 2003, 07:05 PM
Today @ 09:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=333130#post333130)
RightIdea:

This little story is evidence that God works outside of time? :huh:

I fail to see how... and I'd stack scripture against someone's personal (and temporal) experiences any day.

Care to show us some scripture that backs up this view?

Sorry you cannot see it.

If the experience were conta scripture, I'd, like you, choose scripture. But it was not.

Perhaps it happened that way because it was to bolster my own faith.

It did happen.

Peace

jb

bar Jonah
December 10th 2003, 08:34 PM
Wait, are you saying this story is about you? :huh:

Because I've read the Africa version and the Russia version... and I think some other version... It's a somewhat common e-mail forwarded story that pops up now and then. Or did someone make up this story and then God patterned His plan after their little spam e-mail?

Or did you change your family's story to fit this e-mail that I first read years ago? I remember getting this story while I was stationed in Japan back in 1996, before you say this happened.

So, as you can see, I'm a bit confused as to the specific origin of the story.

(It's kind of like that other story about some church overseas needing money, and God made that money available here in the U.S. and sent it before the disaster in Africa/South America/Israel/the Phillipines/etc. ever happened. God sending a solution before the problem happens. All kinds of versions of that same story too, with different overseas countries.)

Jaltus
December 10th 2003, 09:24 PM
RI,

He said it happened in the 70s. You might want to reread his post.

As for God being able to work outside of time, there is nothing in the Bible against that. You are thinking of God BEING outside of time, which is an entirely different animal (which, by the way, I can prove from scripture is true, e.g. Jude 25).

bar Jonah
December 10th 2003, 09:46 PM
Jaltus:
RI,

He said it happened in the 70s. You might want to reread his post.
I know that. But the date at the end of the "notes" is the year 1998, indicating that's when it was written. After I read this story while in Japan, but the Africa version or China or some other version. (I don't think I recall a Korea version, but I could be wrong.)

As for God being able to work outside of time, there is nothing in the Bible against that. You are thinking of God BEING outside of time, which is an entirely different animal (which, by the way, I can prove from scripture is true, e.g. Jude 25).
I agree that the Bible doesn't explicitly state something like "God experiences time as humans do" or "God is outside of time" ... or that something happened "before time." So we must look at indirect evidence.

As for Jude 25, though... how on earth (or off earth, for that matter) does this verse even provide circumstantial evidence for a God outside time, much less "prove" anything?

Jude 25
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

:huh:

Jaltus
December 10th 2003, 11:39 PM
Good grief, you must use the KJV!

Jude 1:25 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

bar Jonah
December 10th 2003, 11:40 PM
Ohhhhhhh... I have to use the translation that fits your presupposition, rather than all of the others. Now I understand. :wink:

Queen
December 11th 2003, 05:26 AM
The paradox of time!

Xmansmommy
December 11th 2003, 10:04 AM
The chapel really isn't the place for debate is it? Wonderful story Burgy. Thank you for sharing. Yes, God does work in ways to bring lives together that will forever be changed! Amen!

bar Jonah
December 11th 2003, 12:14 PM
Sorry, you're right. Once again, I didn't notice what forum this is in. I apologize, and thank you for pointing it out, Linda.

Xmansmommy
December 11th 2003, 01:00 PM
You're welcome Jim. :smile:

burgy
December 13th 2003, 06:02 PM
12-10-2003 @ 05:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=333611#post333611)
RightIdea:

Wait, are you saying this story is about you? :huh:

Because I've read the Africa version and the Russia version... and I think some other version... It's a somewhat common e-mail forwarded story that pops up now and then. Or did someone make up this story and then God patterned His plan after their little spam e-mail?

Or did you change your family's story to fit this e-mail that I first read years ago? I remember getting this story while I was stationed in Japan back in 1996, before you say this happened.

So, as you can see, I'm a bit confused as to the specific origin of the story.

(It's kind of like that other story about some church overseas needing money, and God made that money available here in the U.S. and sent it before the disaster in Africa/South America/Israel/the Phillipines/etc. ever happened. God sending a solution before the problem happens. All kinds of versions of that same story too, with different overseas countries.)


Interesting. The story WAs about me and my family. The events described happened as I told them in 1973-74. At the time, we were living in Delray beach, Florida.

Over the years 1974 to 1999, I probably told the story informally perhaps a dozen times. I told it in essentially its present form (formally) at a Walk to Emmaus weekend in -- I think -- 1996 or 1997. I have told it again (formally, since Aug 1999) only once. I put it on my web site in January 2001; I think there have been no changes since that time.

I detest so-called "Christian stories," which purport to tell events in a "Christian" way and distort the facts to make a better story. I worked really hard to avoid just that when I put this together. It is as accurate as my memory, aided by discussions with my beloved wife, Carol, and reference to the original paperwork, can make it.

More than that I cannot attest.

Pictures of the two children are included in the story on my web site.

jb

bar Jonah
December 14th 2003, 03:10 AM
Fair enough. Can't take that line of curiosity any further than that.

Jaltus
December 18th 2003, 01:28 AM
12-10-2003 @ 09:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=333795#post333795)
RightIdea:

Ohhhhhhh... I have to use the translation that fits your presupposition, rather than all of the others. Now I understand. :wink:

Um, I realize this is not the area for debate, but I did want to clear up something.

Jim, was this sarcastic? My point was that only the KJV (or NKJV) omit that portion of the verse.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled program.

bar Jonah
December 18th 2003, 03:21 AM
Hm, so we're not gonna debate... but you make your point anyway and now I can't respond. :whistle:

Such is life. You can have the last word. :teeth:

Jaltus
December 18th 2003, 11:58 AM
Was not trying for the last word, just wanted to make sure you understood my previous point. Feel free to PM me in order to continue the conversation, I'd be more than happy to!

geebob
December 18th 2003, 01:22 PM
Burgy, that was a good and edifying story. However, I'm still not convinced that this shows God working outside of time. Perhaps if you could sketch a brief sequence out of it.

emulator
January 5th 2004, 03:18 AM
hmmm....nuuuuneeenuuuuneeeeenuuuu

good story

optimism barred