Who Is a Jew? What Is Israel?

[John Reece]

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9904/public.html#who

The Public Square (April 1999)

Richard John Neuhaus

The beginning of the year witnessed a new and virulent eruption of Israel’s perennial identity crisis. At a time already confused by turbulent campaigns in the national election, the courts handed down decisions challenging the Orthodox rabbinate’s control of religious affairs, which, in a state that defines itself as Jewish, means also affairs that in other countries would not be defined as religious. "Isn’t this the lesson one recalls from American history?" asks Rabbi Uri Regev, a leader of the small Reform movement in Israel. "A recalcitrant Congress motivated by less than noble considerations and a Court that emerges as the beacon of light and defender of civil liberties." Judicial usurpation of politics, anyone?

But the parallels between the U.S. and Israel are limited. The U.S. in its founding was a Christian, mainly Protestant, society, as it is still, however confusedly, a Christian society today. The polity adopted here is religiously neutral, which does not mean—contra the jurisprudence of recent decades—that it is anti–religiously secular. Any religious test for citizenship or public office, for instance, is forbidden. Since the days of the Romans, by way of contrast, there was no Jewish state until the establishment of Israel in 1948. Unlike Christianity, which has had two thousand years of numerous experiments with different polities, Judaism as a collectivity completely missed the experience of nation–building and statecraft, including the modern emergence of liberal democracy.

The Zionist founders of contemporary Israel were typically secularists and frequently antireligious. But a deal was struck in which the Orthodox rabbinate would have control over religious matters such as marriage, Sabbath observance, food laws, and, very importantly, determining who is and who is not a Jew. The Orthodox, for instance, do not recognize as Jewish someone who converts under Reform or Conservative auspices. Backed by Reform and Conservative leaderships in North America (where there are more Jews than in Israel), the constituting compromise of the State of Israel is now under severe challenge. In the vanguard of the challenge are the courts. Deborah Sontag of the New York Times puts it this way: "By their very existence, the courts are a threat to the strictly Orthodox when they rule on religious matters. The laws they interpret are secular and not religious, and the principles that they uphold are democratic and not theocratic."

That strikes one as dangerously simplistic. Like the rabbi quoted above, many secular liberals in Israel seem to be reading their circumstance through the prism of the American experience, with the assertive and growing Orthodox (usually called "ultra–Orthodox") cast in the role of what here is called the "religious right." Neither here nor in Israel should the choice be posed in terms of democracy vs. theocracy. That way lies religious warfare, with secularism being every bit as much an aggressive belligerent as the parties designated as religious. In America, those advocating anything like theocracy are a very small band of "reconstructionists" or "theonomists" on the far fringes of our political culture. In Israel, ironically, those accused of advocating theocracy are in some cases sectarian Orthodox who do not even recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel, believing as they do that a Jewish state must await the Messianic Age and the restoration of the Temple.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9904/public.html#who

[kofh2u]

hi mr reecie,
I always smile when i hear people debate the question, "Who is a Jew?" They mean what is the criteria. Jews make me almost cry from laughter when they argue their various opinions on the subject.

No. i am not amused.

I laugh at of amazement of their oh, so short memories. I can hardly believe that they are awake enough to actually be living. Really.

The matter of one's Jewishness was finally, after two millennia of persecution, legally, socially, culturally, and politically defined by the Nazi.

What is the criteria which decides one's fate ln this issue?
Do you live, or do you die?

"Meni. meni. Tekel. Parshin. = H. H. V. Y.

"you have been weighed and found wanting."

Your weight ?
1/16 Jewish blood in your heritage... to the left, on the train, you die.

[Jude3b]

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2: 28 & 29).

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Philippians 3:3)

Note- According to the Word of God, a "Jew" is one who has been circumcised in the heart, that is, truly saved from sin; therefore, every true Born-Again Christian is a spiritual Jew, and are the ones who worship God in the Spirit.

The true church of God, the body of Christ is the Israel of God today.

[John D. Brey]

Hi Jude3b,

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2: 28 & 29).

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Philippians 3:3)

And your interpretation of these saying of Paul was:

>>Note- According to the Word of God, a "Jew" is one who has been circumcised in the heart, that is, truly saved from sin; therefore, every true Born-Again Christian is a spiritual Jew, and are the ones who worship God in the Spirit. The true church of God, the body of Christ is the Israel of God today.<<

The Church could be said to be the "Israel of God" only in a carefully parsed metaphorical sense. God's covenants to Israel still stand; and in your quotes from Paul, he may very well be speaking of Israel prior to Christ, and himself as a legitimate Jew by birth, who is also a member of Christ's Body the Church.

In the second of your quotes from Paul, he may be saying that in the age of the Church, Jews by birth are only spiritual Jews if they are members of the Church.

Which brings up the various distinctions related to "Jewish-ness." There are racial Jews (a biological determination), religious Jews, i.e., Judaism, and spiritual Jews.

In the case of the "spiritual Jew" there are two sub-categories: the spiritual Jews of the first Covenant, and the spiritual Jews of the New Covenant.

Israel has not stumbled so as to have been removed from God's unconditional covenants. And the Church's relationship to Israel must be approached with care else we engage heresy rather than our Groom in heaven!



John Brey

[Cherith]

The Church could be said to be the "Israel of God" only in a carefully parsed metaphorical sense. God's covenants to Israel still stand...

Which brings up the various distinctions related to "Jewish-ness." There are racial Jews (a biological determination), religious Jews, i.e., Judaism, and spiritual Jews.

In the case of the "spiritual Jew" there are two sub-categories: the spiritual Jews of the first Covenant, and the spiritual Jews of the New Covenant.

Israel has not stumbled so as to have been removed from God's unconditional covenants. And the Church's relationship to Israel must be approached with care else we engage heresy rather than our Groom in heaven!

Oh brother! Or as Tweety bird says "He don't know me berry well, do he?"

John, I realize this is your first post and all, but perhaps you should try reading a little more before you decide to assert certain things in certain places! See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21895&page=2&pp=16) for instance. Or even here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16354&page=2&pp=16) (particularly post #31 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=437529&postcount=31)).

Actually, a little Bible-reading, a few history lessons plus a short course in biology could clear all that nonsense right up. (You've already got the name of a hyper-pret going against you... Sick 'em Dee Dee.)

:pray:
--C

P.S. Welcome to Tweb!

"But now hath He obtained a More Excellent Ministry, by how much also He is The Mediator of a Better Covenant, which was established upon Better Promises. {7} For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. {8} For finding fault with them, He Saith:

Behold, the days come, saith The Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: {9} NϘT according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued NØT in My Covenant, and I Regarded them NØT, Saith The Lord. {10} For this is The Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, Saith The Lord; I Will Put My Laws into their mind, and Write them in their hearts: and I Will Be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people: {11} And they shall NØT teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know The Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. {12} For I Will Be Merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities I Will Remember NØ More.

{13} In that He Saith, 'a NEW Covenant,' He Hath Made the First Covenant OBSOLETE. Now that which is DECAYING and SENESCENT is ready to DISAPPEAR/BE ABROGATED." --Heb 8:6-13

[John D. Brey]

Hi Cherith,





You seem to be under the illusion that the Covenant signed at Sinai is the whole of God’s relationship to Israel (though you’ve not made your point that clear?).



The unconditional covenants to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob can rightly be framed as a prenuptial agreement between God and His betrothed bride Israel. The prenuptial states that if the marriage between God and Israel were ever to sour (even to the point of divorcement), still, God has predetermined (unconditionally) to share something of His eternal wealth with Israel for whom He has an everlasting love bound by no conditions!



Moses was ordained to mediate the marriage between God and Israel. The marriage ceremony took place at Sinai after the Red Sea baptism. Moses read Israel her wedding vows to which she responded: I will do everything God has requested: “I do” (Exodus 19:8)!



After having Israel signify her wedding vows, Moses next turns to the groom: God. In His great love for Israel, God goes so far as to sign the marriage certificate in his own hand. The Law is the official marriage certificate delineating what God demands of His bride in order to sanctify the marital union.



But God knows something of the desires and priorities of a child-bride raised in the poverty of slavery! His design is not so much to consummate His union with the slave-bride Hagar (Gal. 4:24), but rather, His design is to bear her innumerable iniquities with the same great patience He exhibited in relationship to Pharaoh (Num. 14:22). In this, His desire is to make His power and wisdom known to another Bride preordained for glory and honor before the foundations of the world (Rom. 9:22-33).



Betrothal to God was too much for a simple slave girl. Having just signed on to the actual matrimony, Israel decided she was the belle of the ball. For her, the prenuptial was more than she ever dreamt of. With the bridal gifts from the Egyptians, and the guarantee of unconditional wealth from the prenuptial, Israel bailed out of the marriage before God could even sign the marriage certificate. She threw an orgy of a party and basked in her newfound freedom and wealth!



The first condition (commandment) of the marriage certificate was that Israel serve no husband but God. God required absolute faithfulness as the very first condition of continued matrimonial union. Israel broke the first condition before the marriage was even consummated.



Returning from God’s signing of the marriage certificate, Moses, the mediator, or minister, of the union, finds God’s bride naked in the very act of gross adultery against the very first article of the marriage contract. ---- Enraged, as any minister of a marital contract would be under like circumstances (observing a bride caught in the act of adultery before the ink had dried on the marriage certificate), Moses immediately breaks the contract to pieces and, as retribution for her crime, cuts off a number of limbs from her body (Exodus 32:27; Matt. 10:35).



Moses has the unenviable task of returning to God to tell Him that the marriage has been annulled, and that the annulment has been affected because of barefaced adultery on the eve of the consummation of their holy matrimony.



In his rage at His bride, God threatens to kill her (Exodus 32:9). But Moses intercedes on her behalf (Ex. 32:10-12; Luke 23:34), and so God agrees to allow her to live.



Having had His marriage lawfully annulled by reason of His bride’s infidelities, God is free to enter into a New Covenant. And He does! God determines to marry Himself to Moses, the mediator of His first marriage, and He consummates the marriage before Moses even returns down the mountain to Israel (Exodus 19:6, 32:10; Num. 14:12; Deut. 10:4).



Happily married to the Mediator between Himself and Israel, God mellows concerning His anger at Israel. He promises to keep to His prenuptial agreement, and to indeed bless Israel with an everlasting love and everlasting wealth from His infinite treasuries. Israel, God’s unfaithful wife, agrees to serve God’s new bride as a friend (Gen. 16:9).



The Church, Christ’s bride, does not inherit Israel’s prenuptial agreement to God. God is faithful to that agreement. God will fulfill His unconditional Covenants to Israel. Israel will be a great nation that rules the world forever and ever. The Church, Christ’s bride, will rule over Israel as the bride of the King.









John Brey

[A-Man]

John, Thats just silly.

[John D. Brey]

John, Thats just silly.
By not qualifying your statement you make it tautological. In other words, by not qualifying your statement you're assuming it's necessarily so, and all necessary truths are tautologies. Wittgenstein was clear that we must pass over tautologies in silence. They are neither true or false, they are simply meaningless!


John Brey

[A-Man]

I understand logic, John. Thanks.
May God bless you.

[Jude3b]

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2: 28 & 29).

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Philippians 3:3)

Note- According to the Word of God, a "Jew" is one who has been circumcised in the heart, that is, truly saved from sin; therefore, every true Born-Again Christian is a spiritual Jew, and are the ones who worship God in the Spirit.

The true church of God, the body of Christ is the Israel of God today.

To clarify my statement, let me add: Throughout the book of Hebrews the two covenants are placed in sharp contrast. In chapter 9, after speaking of the "first covenant," the apostle represents Christ as "the mediator of the new testament," which is brought into force after his death; just as a "will," or testament, is made effective among men by the death of the testator. The first testament was dedicated by the blood of animals, the blood which could never "make the comers thereunto perfect" not take away sins" (Chap. 10: 1-4); but the second will, or testament, was dedicated by a divine sacrifice. "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, that he may establish the second. By the which WILL we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (verses 9, 10).

In the new covenant there is perfect salvation from sin through the blood of Jesus Christ.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb. 8: 6-13)

Jesus Christ came to establish His kingdom and He did exactly that. He said, "Go and preach the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:60). "The kingdom of God is preached..." (Luke 16:16). "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neiter shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20, 21)

What a clear contrast between the nature of Christ's kingdom and that of earthly kingdoms! This kingdom of God and the church of God replaced the old covenant. On the day of Pentecost, the church was fully organized and set in order, and dedicated by a most wonderful outpouring of the Holy Spirit, they indeed saw the kingdom of God come with power (see Luke 24:49).

The Israel of God and the church of God became one and the same. The qualification to be a true Jew? Get saved! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30 & 31)

[Timothy Leary]

I'll ask you yet again, and I'll keep asking you. Why do you keep quoting yourself?

[Jude3b]

To clarify my statement, let me add: Throughout the book of Hebrews the two covenants are placed in sharp contrast. In chapter 9, after speaking of the "first covenant," the apostle represents Christ as "the mediator of the new testament," which is brought into force after his death; just as a "will," or testament, is made effective among men by the death of the testator. The first testament was dedicated by the blood of animals, the blood which could never "make the comers thereunto perfect" not take away sins" (Chap. 10: 1-4); but the second will, or testament, was dedicated by a divine sacrifice. "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, that he may establish the second. By the which WILL we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (verses 9, 10).

In the new covenant there is perfect salvation from sin through the blood of Jesus Christ.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb. 8: 6-13)

Jesus Christ came to establish His kingdom and He did exactly that. He said, "Go and preach the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:60). "The kingdom of God is preached..." (Luke 16:16). "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neiter shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20, 21)

What a clear contrast between the nature of Christ's kingdom and that of earthly kingdoms! This kingdom of God and the church of God replaced the old covenant. On the day of Pentecost, the church was fully organized and set in order, and dedicated by a most wonderful outpouring of the Holy Spirit, they indeed saw the kingdom of God come with power (see Luke 24:49).

The Israel of God and the church of God became one and the same. The qualification to be a true Jew? Get saved! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30 & 31)

I forgot to mention that the writer of the Book of Hebrews affirms that the Old Testament house of God was "a figure for the time then present," pointing forward to and meeting its antitype in "a greater and more perfect tabernacle" introduced by Christ and dedicated by his own blood (Heb. 9:1-14). Paul distinctly states that the "house of God......is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (I Tim. 3:15).

The transfer of God's sanction and approval from the Old Testament house to the New Testament house took place at the death of Christ, when all the rites, ceremonies, and appointments of the former ended. Just before this occurrence, Jesus, weeping over the sad condition of rebellious Jerusalem, said, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt. 23:38)

[Timothy Leary]

Jude3b, why do you keep quoting yourself? I'll ask you yet again, and I'll keep asking you. Why do you keep quoting yourself?

[kofh2u]

Oh brother! Or as Tweety bird says "He don't know me berry well, do he?"

John, I realize this is your first post and all, but perhaps you should try reading a little more before you decide to assert certain things in certain places! See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21895&page=2&pp=16) for instance. Or even here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16354&page=2&pp=16) (particularly post #31 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=437529&postcount=31)).

Actually, a little Bible-reading, a few history lessons plus a short course in biology could clear all that nonsense right up. (You've already got the name of a hyper-pret going against you... Sick 'em Dee Dee.)

:pray:
--C

P.S. Welcome to Tweb!

"But now hath He obtained a More Excellent Ministry, by how much also He is The Mediator of a Better Covenant, which was established upon Better Promises. {7} For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. {8} For finding fault with them, He Saith:

Behold, the days come, saith The Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: {9} N?T according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued NØT in My Covenant, and I Regarded them NØT, Saith The Lord. {10} For this is The Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, Saith The Lord; I Will Put My Laws into their mind, and Write them in their hearts: and I Will Be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people: {11} And they shall NØT teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know The Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. {12} For I Will Be Merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities I Will Remember NØ More.

{13} In that He Saith, 'a NEW Covenant,' He Hath Made the First Covenant OBSOLETE. Now that which is DECAYING and SENESCENT is ready to DISAPPEAR/BE ABROGATED." --Heb 8:6-13

Be patient,... first the Gentile will be given the outer courts, and then,... the last, the Jew shall be as in the beginning, first among the (Hebrew) Christians.


Zech. 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire (of the Holocaust), and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them
as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, (in 1948), It is my people: and (thereafter) they, (in Israel), shall say, The LORD, (Christ), is my God.

[Pitiricus]

A Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or converted according to Halacha...

As simple as that!

[InChristAlways]

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2: 28 & 29).

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Philippians 3:3)

Note- According to the Word of God, a "Jew" is one who has been circumcised in the heart, that is, truly saved from sin; therefore, every true Born-Again Christian is a spiritual Jew, and are the ones who worship God in the Spirit.

The true church of God, the body of Christ is the Israel of God today.That is the way I view the bible. One thing I noticed about this passage in Hebrews, is though God appears to say the new convenant would be with both Judah and Israel, why does He just mention Israel in vs 10? Could this be the "remnant" of the jews from the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century being combined with the house of Israel afterwards? And what would be different from the OC compared to the NC?
Could it be that Christ Himself replaced the priestly tribe of Judah/Levi with Himself. Jeremiah 17 mentions the sin of Judah would burn forever, which to me means the jews, not the hebrew Israelites of Israel. Even Malachi is against the house of Levi/Judah and I was wondering how jews or Israelites view this considering almost all OT prophecies are against JUDAH/Jerusalem not Israel. Thanks and God bless.

8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

zech 4:5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 6 So he answered and said to me: "This the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts. [i]7 'Who [are] you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel [you shall become] a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "