NEWS: Islam overtakes Christianity in the UK

[Robyn Banks]

Muslims outpace Anglicans in UK

SUNDAY, JANUARY 25, 2004 08:08:38 PM

LONDON : Attendance at Britain 's mosques has outstripped the number of regular worshippers in the Church of England for the first time, media reported on Sunday.

Figures compiled from government and academic sources show that 930,000 Muslims attend a place of worship at least once a week, as against 916,000 Anglicans, The Sunday Times reported.

Muslim leaders said that it was a landmark in the rise of Islam in Britain and that Muslims must receive a share of the Church of England's privileged status.

This weekend David Hope, the Archbishop of York, second in the church hierarchy, conceded. His spokesman said: "The archbishop acknowledges the overtaking of Church of England numbers by the Muslim community. But he believes that many more people have an affinity to the church than the number recorded as having attended once on a Sunday."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/444572.cms

[Dr T]

Muslims outpace Anglicans in UK

SUNDAY, JANUARY 25, 2004 08:08:38 PM

LONDON : Attendance at Britain 's mosques has outstripped the number of regular worshippers in the Church of England for the first time, media reported on Sunday.

Figures compiled from government and academic sources show that 930,000 Muslims attend a place of worship at least once a week, as against 916,000 Anglicans, The Sunday Times reported.

Muslim leaders said that it was a landmark in the rise of Islam in Britain and that Muslims must receive a share of the Church of England's privileged status.

This weekend David Hope, the Archbishop of York, second in the church hierarchy, conceded. His spokesman said: "The archbishop acknowledges the overtaking of Church of England numbers by the Muslim community. But he believes that many more people have an affinity to the church than the number recorded as having attended once on a Sunday."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/444572.cms

Just shows how easy it is to lie with numbers.

Even if we assume that the numbers are in any way valid, which they may not be after all to quote from the original article

"The Muslim community does not keep registers of attendance in mosques. However, the 2001 census included a question about religious adherence. "

it is still a very false comparison.

The Muslim community has many sects, sub groups and divisions. My experience of Muslim groups in the UK is that they hate each other with a vengence, often on racial grounds. A fairer comparison would be one of the following:

1) Against the total number of Christians, which is far higher than just the total of the number of Anglicans.

2) The largest Muslim sect total, but then what of the number of Catholics, Methodists, etc etc all of which would be a bigger number than this Muslim sub sect number. Where wouild that put them in the pecking order.

Anyway all nonsense we have a single established Church. It will either cease to be established or it won't, but no other Church or religion will become the state Church.

[seiko]

Heck its not even the U.K, what about the Church of Scotland ?

[Pilgrim]

Spot on Dr. T and Sieko. And I also think it would be interesting to do a study as to why the numbers in Islam are growing. I would venture a guess that the numbers are balancing out because of attrition in the Christian Churches and immigration into the UK of Islam individuals and families rather than conversion or revival to/in Islam.

[seiko]

Spot on Dr. T and Sieko. And I also think it would be interesting to do a study as to why the numbers in Islam are growing. I would venture a guess that the numbers are balancing out because of attrition in the Christian Churches and immigration into the UK of Islam individuals and families rather than conversion or revival to/in Islam.

Your probably right. I did read a blurb of a back of a book by PasterNoster press [ sorry I cant remember the title ] which argued that the lack of christian religion means the void will be filled with Islam either by numbers of conversions.
Of course conversions do happen, Muslim missionaries are growing in this country, I met one that claims to "specialise" in converting women to Islam.

[Alien]

Here are the numbers I would like to see.

- The true numbers of Muslims attending mosques of all "denominations".
- The previous number, broken down by original, first generation and second generation immigrants.
- The number of regular attendees at all Christian churches, not just C of E.
- All the above numbers expressed as a percentage of the total populations of the two ethnic groups (immigrants from Muslim countries and "native" Brits).
- Numbers of converts in both directions.

I'm sure the results would still be gloomy from the Christian point of view, but it would at least mean something.

[Shaverreturns]

I would agree with all the previous sentiments but let us not miss what is happening around us. The UK is becoming more Islamic everyday. My university that I study at in London is increasingly Islamic, even in the years that I have been here. The UK is becoming more Islamic so we must take statistics like these a bit more seriously. Muslims like to wave them around triumphantly and we reject them off hand. I think that the Muslims should concede that a lot is from migration and the high number of children in Muslim families. We should concede that Islam is growing in numbers in the UK, mainly England.

Yours,
Shaver

[kofh2u]

I would agree with all the previous sentiments but let us not miss what is happening around us. The UK is becoming more Islamic everyday. My university that I study at in London is increasingly Islamic, even in the years that I have been here. The UK is becoming more Islamic so we must take statistics like these a bit more seriously. Muslims like to wave them around triumphantly and we reject them off hand. I think that the Muslims should concede that a lot is from migration and the high number of children in Muslim families. We should concede that Islam is growing in numbers in the UK, mainly England.

Yours,
Shaver

Roman Catholic church attendance is down to 20% from what I read recently. And, the Pope has encouraged Italian procreation as an imperative in his last public address to that nation.

How then, unless we become very pro-active in our dialogue, will this prophecy be fulfilled?

Rev. 9:14 Saying to the sixth Homoiousian archetype which had the trumpet, the key to Genesis, Loose the four angels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which are bound in the great Islamic river, Euphrates.

Rev. 9:15 And the four Evangelists were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to convert the third part of men in the Western World, one billion Muslims.

Rev. 9:16 And the number of the army of the Christians were two
hundred thousand thousand, 10% of their two billions: and I heard the number of them.

[Shaverreturns]

Roman Catholic church attendance is down to 20% from what I read recently. And, the Pope has encouraged Italian procreation as an imperative in his last public address to that nation.

How then, unless we become very pro-active in our dialogue, will this prophecy be fulfilled?

Rev. 9:14 Saying to the sixth Homoiousian archetype which had the trumpet, the key to Genesis, Loose the four angels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which are bound in the great Islamic river, Euphrates.

Rev. 9:15 And the four Evangelists were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to convert the third part of men in the Western World, one billion Muslims.

Rev. 9:16 And the number of the army of the Christians were two
hundred thousand thousand, 10% of their two billions: and I heard the number of them.

Hmmm....

Well, your quotation from Rev 9 is wrong, and provocatively wrong. You add things in so as to make it a total interpretation. Here is the actual passage -

"13Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number." (ESV translation of the Greek)

So, your quotation is wrong. Your intention from your post is uncertain.

Your post is totally off topic and does not add to the thread.

Yours,
Shaver

[ali420]

I would like to just comment on few of the points raised in this thread.

"My university that I study at in London is increasingly Islamic, even in the years that I have been here."

This is indeed true Muslim students are taking more Islam into there Universities, but this effort is not a effect of a organised group its few people who are eager invite people to Islam. And more importantly the aim is not to convert non-muslims to Islam always, but majority are members of Al-Muhajiroon, and Hizbt-ut-Tahrir, both of these two groups have alot of influence in universities. Al-Muhajiroons founder to me is surely some paid members of some secret organisation, FBI MI5 or some thinking, this guy is total nut case, and I would rate him, top level TERRORIST, far more dangerous then Bin Laden. And Hizbt-ut-Tahrir is a political Party which aims to unify the Muslims under a single leadership, and its target is not non-Muslims, but Muslims, whom they want to support their party.

"The UK is becoming more Islamic so we must take statistics like these a bit more seriously."

Its not UK becoming more Islamic, but its the increasing amount of brown colour people flooding to UK, which is giving you the impression that Uk is becomming more Islamic. Infact we Muslims are having crisis in our communities, not that Muslims are becomming Christians, but Muslims are increasingly becomming secular, and secularism is far greater challenge to Islam then any religion or movement. With regard to the statistics revealing that amount of Muslims have increased drametically, but they dont tell you that this drametic increase in Muslim population is result of mass imigration, and high child birth rate, a average white person has two children in UK, while a average Muslim about 3.5

"Muslims like to wave them around triumphantly and we reject them off hand. I think that the Muslims should concede that a lot is from migration and the high number of children in Muslim families. We should concede that Islam is growing in numbers in the UK, mainly England."

There is alot of truth in wat you said even this is the truth, i dont think Muslims should go out and brag about this, because we are not doing our existance any favour. Especially the incident of 911 that hatred for Islam and then Muslims has increased in many fold, and these statistics will only strike fear in hearts and mind of people, because they will fear that eventually Islam and Muslims will take over UK. And this will be the cause of fear, and fear leads to hatred, and hatred to the consentration camps, like Jews.

There is somone else here stated that there are some Muslims who specialise in converting Woman, this is loads of paranoya. The reason why alot of woman convert to Islam is not becuase we get special training to convert them, but Islam has a special place for a woman. When a woman is in the role of mother she has three quarters more right on the children, then the father, thats to mean If a son earns hudered pounds, seventy-five will go to mother and 25 to the father. When a woman is playing the role of Wife, she is equal status with husband, that doesnt mean if the husband takes the shirt off in public, the wife can do that also, because people and men are attracted to female body more, if a man walks his bearing his chest hardly anyone will notice, but if a woman does the same there would be hardly anybody that will ignore her, female body is sexually more attractive, then a male body. She is Equal in status has a wife, like if a husband wants to buy a car, she according to shariah is also entitled to buying a car, a husband can buy a house so can a wife, even if a husband doesnt buy a house or car, the wife can , she equal in matters of material. And Islam gives back the woman her dignity back, Islam restores the honour of being a woman. European and Americaan values have taken these away from woman, a female is exploited, a car wont sell if there is no naked woman laying on it, you cant go to a market without noticing big breasted woman sitting at the counter wearing white shirts, which are almost see through, and even worse the bags are under the counter so the checkout lady has to bend over to pick them, so the male customers can get glimpse of her breasts, leaves happy after paying fifty pounds for his grocery. A average woman sleeps with atlease 5 men before she finds one that can meet her criteria of being her husband, and in American that even higher.

Who makes the woman dance in the strip clubs, the man do! Who is sexually exploited more man or Woman, Woman. 95 % of the strip clubs are for male audience, and the strippers are woman. European and Western Values have reduced women to level of a prostitutes, Islam evlivates them from the Western gutters and gives them back whats there, there clothes, there dignity, there honour, there self confidence. The hijab, is considered has a symbol of oppression for Muslim woman, but when the Westerners see the white woman wearing them they say oh they must be brainwashed. The hijab (what muslims woman cover their head with) is what protects woman from being exploited, it protects there dignity and honour. Suppose you are dating a woman wearing short skirt and her smooth thighst and legst are visialbe, and a shirt, and her chest is visible through what she is wearing, wat are the chances that you will get attracted to her sexually, and what are the chances that you want to be with her for your sexual pleasure, and suppose you are serios you want to marry her, how long you think you can love her for hher body, not long. YOu will get bored of her body once you enjoy it, for a marriage to last and for it to be strong, it has to be based on love of personality not body, and there is no way you can love a woman when her breasts are her smooth thighs are exposeed infront of a man, you will lust her not love her. Real love is with personality not sexuality, and not fisical appearance, and any man who thinks that he can love a woman for her body is a bloody liar. Now assume that you are sitting with a woman covering her body like a muslim woman, what are the chances the you will begin to lust her, no chance, you can only sexually get attracted to what you see with your eyes, you cant see the size of her breasts, you cant see the shape of the breasts, you cant see her back side, you can see the shape of her waiste, you cant see her thighs, you can lust someone like that, you cant devolpe a burning desire to have sex with her, because you dont even knwo how she looks like under that dress, she might be fat tub of lard, and the ugliest woman on earth, you know you only feel tempted to buy something when you can see the object, no matter how the sellers describes that object you wont get tempted to buy it until you see it first. there is not chance that you can lust that woman, if you are a serious person then you will have to fall in love with that persons personality, and if you dont fall in love with the womans personality then you have taken nothing, you have gven nothing. The has not been sexually enjoyed and the left by the man for another woman whom he thought looked more sexier then his present partner.

A woman wearing Hijab is 10 times lesslikely to be raped then a woman wearing a short skirt and a skimpy blouse, why because that woman is putting her stuff on the market, and sometime wrong buyers come, they dont want to marry you, and then take the goods they just want to goods any way possible. Suppose you are married to a woman, who is always walking around you semi naked, at first few times you will find her attractive but after a while yu will get use to her beauty, the woman you use to think is the prettiest woman on earth is no longer the prettiest woman, just a woman walking around naked. Human are programed to like a beautifull thing, but if they look at one thing for too long that beautiful thing looses its attractiveness in human mind, the less you look at it longer you will find it attractive more you look at it less you will find it attractive, in the same way a female body is attractive but staring at it all day you eventually will loose the apetite to look at that, you will want something new, and men do leave woman for other woman. the woman is used and abused and then discareded for another. the Hijab protects the woman she covers her body when there is no need for uncovering it, thus the man will stay attractive to her, and the relationship will remain sexually healthy, thus protecting her.

I can alot more about this but i think this will get the point across, its not that we brain wash them, its that Islam elivates them from a whore to a Woman, and those who have been explained all this, some will choose to become Muslims. Other reason for woman to convert to Islam is that alot of Muslim men date non-muslim white woman, and they wish to marry them, so they tell them about islam, the family of the men dont approve of their desire, and they are forced to change there mind, the woman after wards is still influenced with the teaching of Islam and she converts later on her life. Secondly men feel comfertable with woman, its in the nature of men to desire women, they look for every excuse to chat-up women, so they look for woman who are interested in them sexually and preach to them about islam. I my self like to discuss about Islam to woman on msn msngr, but never to men, dont ask why I just do that.

I hope that expels some confusion and myth about Islam.
Any comments welcome
Ali

[twohumble]

I would like to just comment on few of the points raised in this thread.

"My university that I study at in London is increasingly Islamic, even in the years that I have been here."

This is indeed true Muslim students are taking more Islam into there Universities, but this effort is not a effect of a organised group its few people who are eager invite people to Islam. And more importantly the aim is not to convert non-muslims to Islam always, but majority are members of Al-Muhajiroon, and Hizbt-ut-Tahrir, both of these two groups have alot of influence in universities. Al-Muhajiroons founder to me is surely some paid members of some secret organisation, FBI MI5 or some thinking, this guy is total nut case, and I would rate him, top level TERRORIST, far more dangerous then Bin Laden. And Hizbt-ut-Tahrir is a political Party which aims to unify the Muslims under a single leadership, and its target is not non-Muslims, but Muslims, whom they want to support their party.

"The UK is becoming more Islamic so we must take statistics like these a bit more seriously."

Its not UK becoming more Islamic, but its the increasing amount of brown colour people flooding to UK, which is giving you the impression that Uk is becomming more Islamic. Infact we Muslims are having crisis in our communities, not that Muslims are becomming Christians, but Muslims are increasingly becomming secular, and secularism is far greater challenge to Islam then any religion or movement. With regard to the statistics revealing that amount of Muslims have increased drametically, but they dont tell you that this drametic increase in Muslim population is result of mass imigration, and high child birth rate, a average white person has two children in UK, while a average Muslim about 3.5

"Muslims like to wave them around triumphantly and we reject them off hand. I think that the Muslims should concede that a lot is from migration and the high number of children in Muslim families. We should concede that Islam is growing in numbers in the UK, mainly England."

There is alot of truth in wat you said even this is the truth, i dont think Muslims should go out and brag about this, because we are not doing our existance any favour. Especially the incident of 911 that hatred for Islam and then Muslims has increased in many fold, and these statistics will only strike fear in hearts and mind of people, because they will fear that eventually Islam and Muslims will take over UK. And this will be the cause of fear, and fear leads to hatred, and hatred to the consentration camps, like Jews.

There is somone else here stated that there are some Muslims who specialise in converting Woman, this is loads of paranoya. The reason why alot of woman convert to Islam is not becuase we get special training to convert them, but Islam has a special place for a woman. When a woman is in the role of mother she has three quarters more right on the children, then the father, thats to mean If a son earns hudered pounds, seventy-five will go to mother and 25 to the father. When a woman is playing the role of Wife, she is equal status with husband, that doesnt mean if the husband takes the shirt off in public, the wife can do that also, because people and men are attracted to female body more, if a man walks his bearing his chest hardly anyone will notice, but if a woman does the same there would be hardly anybody that will ignore her, female body is sexually more attractive, then a male body. She is Equal in status has a wife, like if a husband wants to buy a car, she according to shariah is also entitled to buying a car, a husband can buy a house so can a wife, even if a husband doesnt buy a house or car, the wife can , she equal in matters of material. And Islam gives back the woman her dignity back, Islam restores the honour of being a woman. European and Americaan values have taken these away from woman, a female is exploited, a car wont sell if there is no naked woman laying on it, you cant go to a market without noticing big breasted woman sitting at the counter wearing white shirts, which are almost see through, and even worse the bags are under the counter so the checkout lady has to bend over to pick them, so the male customers can get glimpse of her breasts, leaves happy after paying fifty pounds for his grocery. A average woman sleeps with atlease 5 men before she finds one that can meet her criteria of being her husband, and in American that even higher.

Who makes the woman dance in the strip clubs, the man do! Who is sexually exploited more man or Woman, Woman. 95 % of the strip clubs are for male audience, and the strippers are woman. European and Western Values have reduced women to level of a prostitutes, Islam evlivates them from the Western gutters and gives them back whats there, there clothes, there dignity, there honour, there self confidence. The hijab, is considered has a symbol of oppression for Muslim woman, but when the Westerners see the white woman wearing them they say oh they must be brainwashed. The hijab (what muslims woman cover their head with) is what protects woman from being exploited, it protects there dignity and honour. Suppose you are dating a woman wearing short skirt and her smooth thighst and legst are visialbe, and a shirt, and her chest is visible through what she is wearing, wat are the chances that you will get attracted to her sexually, and what are the chances that you want to be with her for your sexual pleasure, and suppose you are serios you want to marry her, how long you think you can love her for hher body, not long. YOu will get bored of her body once you enjoy it, for a marriage to last and for it to be strong, it has to be based on love of personality not body, and there is no way you can love a woman when her breasts are her smooth thighs are exposeed infront of a man, you will lust her not love her. Real love is with personality not sexuality, and not fisical appearance, and any man who thinks that he can love a woman for her body is a bloody liar. Now assume that you are sitting with a woman covering her body like a muslim woman, what are the chances the you will begin to lust her, no chance, you can only sexually get attracted to what you see with your eyes, you cant see the size of her breasts, you cant see the shape of the breasts, you cant see her back side, you can see the shape of her waiste, you cant see her thighs, you can lust someone like that, you cant devolpe a burning desire to have sex with her, because you dont even knwo how she looks like under that dress, she might be fat tub of lard, and the ugliest woman on earth, you know you only feel tempted to buy something when you can see the object, no matter how the sellers describes that object you wont get tempted to buy it until you see it first. there is not chance that you can lust that woman, if you are a serious person then you will have to fall in love with that persons personality, and if you dont fall in love with the womans personality then you have taken nothing, you have gven nothing. The has not been sexually enjoyed and the left by the man for another woman whom he thought looked more sexier then his present partner.

A woman wearing Hijab is 10 times lesslikely to be raped then a woman wearing a short skirt and a skimpy blouse, why because that woman is putting her stuff on the market, and sometime wrong buyers come, they dont want to marry you, and then take the goods they just want to goods any way possible. Suppose you are married to a woman, who is always walking around you semi naked, at first few times you will find her attractive but after a while yu will get use to her beauty, the woman you use to think is the prettiest woman on earth is no longer the prettiest woman, just a woman walking around naked. Human are programed to like a beautifull thing, but if they look at one thing for too long that beautiful thing looses its attractiveness in human mind, the less you look at it longer you will find it attractive more you look at it less you will find it attractive, in the same way a female body is attractive but staring at it all day you eventually will loose the apetite to look at that, you will want something new, and men do leave woman for other woman. the woman is used and abused and then discareded for another. the Hijab protects the woman she covers her body when there is no need for uncovering it, thus the man will stay attractive to her, and the relationship will remain sexually healthy, thus protecting her.

I can alot more about this but i think this will get the point across, its not that we brain wash them, its that Islam elivates them from a whore to a Woman, and those who have been explained all this, some will choose to become Muslims. Other reason for woman to convert to Islam is that alot of Muslim men date non-muslim white woman, and they wish to marry them, so they tell them about islam, the family of the men dont approve of their desire, and they are forced to change there mind, the woman after wards is still influenced with the teaching of Islam and she converts later on her life. Secondly men feel comfertable with woman, its in the nature of men to desire women, they look for every excuse to chat-up women, so they look for woman who are interested in them sexually and preach to them about islam. I my self like to discuss about Islam to woman on msn msngr, but never to men, dont ask why I just do that.

I hope that expels some confusion and myth about Islam.
Any comments welcome
Ali
Hello Ali

I find the chaste attitude of Islam to be fine. You unfortunately seem to be equating the lack of chastity in the west, to Christianity. There are many religious cultures that keep their woman chaste, and covered. Including the Christian religion. The Bible plainly tells woman to remain covered to not tempt men. The brainwashing implied is not related to chastity, but to other areas within Islam as it relates to woman.
God Bless