Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the (LDS) Prophet

[Trout]

These are the 14 talking points of a speech given by the (then) President and Prophet of the LDS church Ezra Taft Benson. The speech was delivered at Brigham Young University,Tuesday, February 26, 1980, 10:00 a.m.

1. The Prophet is the Only Man Who Speaks For The Lord in Everything.

2. The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.

3. The Living Prophet is More Important to Us Than a Dead Prophet.

4. The Prophet Will Never Lead The Church Astray.

5. The Prophet is Not Required to Have Any Particular Earthly Training or
Credentials to Speak on Any Subject or Act on Any Matter at Any
Time

6. The Prophet Does Not Have to Say "Thus Saith the Lord" to Give Us
Scripture.

7. The Prophet Tells Us What We Need to Know, Not Always What
We Want to Know.

8. The Prophet is Not Limited by Mens Reasoning.

9. The Prophet Can Receive Revelation on Any Matter--Temporal or
Spiritual.

10. The Prophet May be Involved in Civic Matters.

11. The Two Groups Who Have The Greatest Difficulty in Following
The Prophet Are The Proud Who Are Learned And The Proud Who
Are Rich.

12. The Prophet Will Not Necessarily be Popular With The World or The
Worldly.

13. The Prophet And His Counselors Make Up The First
Presidency--The Highest Quorum in The Church.

14. The Prophet And The Presidency--The Living Prophet And The
First Presidency--Follow Them And Be Blessed--Reject Them
and Suffer.

The speech in it's entirety along with the footnoted reasons for making these claims may be read here (http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm).

The speech was concluded with these words, "I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain--how close do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed--the living Prophet--President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency."


As of today, President Gordon B Hinckley holds this authority.

[John Powell]

JOHN MORMON (the former believer):
This is good advice. If you follow the prophet as best you can and you are led astray then God will bless you. If you follow what God tells you to do, God will bless you. God can reveal things of a general nature to you that He has not revealed to the prophet. The problem is what to do with that information. Until the prophet confirms it, you should keep it rather private.

Let's change the wording somewhat and see if you would then hold to it. Assume it's being spoken of by Jesus to the early Christians of His church.

1. I, Jesus, am the only man who speaks for God, the Father, in everything.

2. What I, Jesus, say is more vital to you than what the Tanackh (O.T.) says.

3. What I, Jesus, say is more important to you than what a dead prophet said.

4. I, Jesus, will never lead the church astray.

5. I, Jesus, am not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. I can be a carpenter.

6. I, Jesus, do not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord" to give you scripture.

7. I, Jesus, tell you what you need to know, not always what you want to know.

8. I, Jesus, am not limited by men's reasoning.

9. I, Jesus, can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual.

10. I, Jesus, may be involved in civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following me, Jesus, are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. I, Jesus, will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. I, Jesus, and my counselors, Peter, James, and John, make up the First Presidency--The Highest Quorum in The Church.

14. I, Jesus, and the Presidency--The Living Prophet And The First Presidency--follow us and be blessed--reject us and suffer.

POWELL (the atheist):
The Mormon leaders are no dummies. Their claim is to be the representatives of Jesus on Earth, so they should be able to claim many of the same kinds of things that Jesus could justifiably claim.

John Powell

[Trout]

POWELL (the atheist):
The Mormon leaders are no dummies. Their claim is to be the representatives of Jesus on Earth, so they should be able to claim many of the same kinds of things that Jesus could justifiably claim.

John Powell

The leadership of the LDS church is very smart, how they've managed to keep the LDS church together this long, built upon the foundation of Joseph Smith is hard to explain.

JP, do you think that Gordon Hinckley believes that he is a prophet of God?

[John Powell]

POWELL (the atheist):
The Mormon leaders are no dummies. Their claim is to be the representatives of Jesus on Earth, so they should be able to claim many of the same kinds of things that Jesus could justifiably claim.

John Powell

TROUTK13:
The leadership of the LDS church is very smart, how they've managed to keep the LDS church together this long, built upon the foundation of Joseph Smith is hard to explain.

JP, do you think that Gordon Hinckley believes that he is a prophet of God?


POWELL:
That's a tough one.

One of the former first presidency, Marion G. Romney, admitted to a current Apostle, Robert D. Hales, that the GREATEST spiritual experience he had ever had as an Apostle was when he and a senior Apostle interviewed about 30 men for the position of stake president, prayed about it, and came up with the same name. (Robert D. Hales "Gifts of the Spirit" Ensign Feb 2002, pg. 12) Go to www.lds.org, click on "Gospel Library," click on "Church Publications HTML (text)," click on "+" in front of "magazines," click on "+" in front of "Ensign," click on "+" in front of "2002," click on "+" in front of "Ensign February 2002," click on "+" in front of "Gifts of the Spirit," click on "Cautions." The relevant story begins in the third paragraph.)

This is very revealing to me, because supposedly the Apostles are SPECIAL WITNESSES to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The idea is that they are supposed to have seen Jesus personally, maybe even touched Him. Surely, such a vision would have been higher on Pres. Romney's list if it had really happened. Or maybe there was a miracle he was part of like someone being raised from the dead or maybe seeing a revelation of heaven. But, merely coming up with the same name for an important church position? That's the best he had?

What likely happened is the senior apostle asked what name Elder Romney was inspired to come up with and then claimed he had come up with the same name. On the other hand, maybe they both wrote it down without looking, but there was one man who was clearly above the rest of the contenders. The point is that having been an Apostle, who presumably sometimes met with Jesus Christ Himself in the Temple, this did not sound like that impressive of a spiritual experience. Mere members claim greater spiritual experiences than that.

Now to answer your question.

I'll have to say they really believe they are prophets of God, but not to the extent that members are taught. They probably consider it to be a pious exaggeration what they say about it or allow to be said in their behalf. If they admitted to what extent they fail to measure up to the member's expectations, the members would not believe the true things they think the members should believe.

John Powell

[Trout]

POWELL:
Now to answer your question.

I'll have to say they really believe they are prophets of God, but not to the extent that members are taught. They probably consider it to be a pious exaggeration what they say about it or allow to be said in their behalf. If they admitted to what extent they fail to measure up to the member's expectations, the members would not believe the true things they think the members should believe.

John Powell
But isn't that life an incredibly deceptive one? It seems to go against everything the church stands for. And everything the church leadership stands for.

It must have been costly for you in many ways to leave the church, but had you been in a position such as Apostle or President, to leave would be almost un-thinkable.

Do you think you could have left the church, had you been in one of those situations?

[John Powell]

TROUTK13:
But isn't that life an incredibly deceptive one?


POWELL:
No. God claims to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Why? Joseph Smith explains so that we could develop sufficient faith in Him. If God did not claim these superlatives then a lot of people would seriously underestimate his power, knowledge, and goodness.

The church leaders probably think it's an exaggeration or a "white lie." It's a falsehood that produces good things.

TROUTK13:
It seems to go against everything the church stands for. And everything the church leadership stands for.

It must have been costly for you in many ways to leave the church, but had you been in a position such as Apostle or President, to leave would be almost un-thinkable.

Do you think you could have left the church, had you been in one of those situations?


POWELL:
Possibly yes, but unlikely.

I suspect that if I had never been divorced or if I had successfully remarried a few years after my divorce then I would never have become an atheist. That extended solitary time gave me sufficient opportunity to consider my beliefs and my "relationship" with God.

John Powell

[Trout]

That's an interesting take, I have always thought that they are sincere in the belief that they are indeed who they claim to be.

[Jin-Roh]

JOHN MORMON (the former believer):
This is good advice. If you follow the prophet as best you can and you are led astray then God will bless you. If you follow what God tells you to do, God will bless you. God can reveal things of a general nature to you that He has not revealed to the prophet. The problem is what to do with that information. Until the prophet confirms it, you should keep it rather private.


JIN-PHARISEE (for fun):

If the "prophet" is really making these claims, then I demand I sign!

JIN-ROH:
Regarding the list where you put Jesus' name in instead of "prophet" I'm really not sure if you can throw his name in there so carelessly. If this is supposed to be some kind of connection between Christianity and Mormonism, why do Mormons follow an earthly soveriegn and your average Protestant does not?

[John Powell]

JOHN MORMON:
. . .
Let's change the wording somewhat and see if you would then hold to it. Assume it's being spoken of by Jesus to the early Christians of His church.
. . .

JIN-ROH:
Regarding the list where you put Jesus' name in instead of "prophet" I'm really not sure if you can throw his name in there so carelessly. If this is supposed to be some kind of connection between Christianity and Mormonism, why do Mormons follow an earthly soveriegn [sic] and your average Protestant does not?


JOHN MORMON:
The attempted match was with Christians living during the days of Jesus. Didn't they follow an earthly sovereign?

Apparently, the early Christians had flesh and blood prophets like Mormons claim to have restored in our day, but when those flesh and blood prophets disappeared from the Earth, Christians decided they didn't need them anymore. They had the Bible.

John Powell

[Sparko]

:mummy:

[Bill the Cat]

:zombie2:

[technomage]

Thread necromancy. It's a terrible thing. Help stop the spread of this vicious trend by making a substantial contribution to this thread now.

SR (stirring the pot again....)

[Rayado]

:zombie:

[RCNicholas]

JOHN MORMON (the former believer):
This is good advice. If you follow the prophet as best you can and you are led astray then God will bless you. If you follow what God tells you to do, God will bless you. God can reveal things of a general nature to you that He has not revealed to the prophet. The problem is what to do with that information. Until the prophet confirms it, you should keep it rather private.

Let's change the wording somewhat and see if you would then hold to it. Assume it's being spoken of by Jesus to the early Christians of His church.

1. I, Jesus, am the only man who speaks for God, the Father, in everything.

2. What I, Jesus, say is more vital to you than what the Tanackh (O.T.) says.

3. What I, Jesus, say is more important to you than what a dead prophet said.

4. I, Jesus, will never lead the church astray.

5. I, Jesus, am not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. I can be a carpenter.

6. I, Jesus, do not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord" to give you scripture.

7. I, Jesus, tell you what you need to know, not always what you want to know.

8. I, Jesus, am not limited by men's reasoning.

9. I, Jesus, can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual.

10. I, Jesus, may be involved in civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following me, Jesus, are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. I, Jesus, will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. I, Jesus, and my counselors, Peter, James, and John, make up the First Presidency--The Highest Quorum in The Church.

14. I, Jesus, and the Presidency--The Living Prophet And The First Presidency--follow us and be blessed--reject us and suffer.

POWELL (the atheist):
The Mormon leaders are no dummies. Their claim is to be the representatives of Jesus on Earth, so they should be able to claim many of the same kinds of things that Jesus could justifiably claim.

John Powell

Didn't Gordon Hinckley just die? I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say if he did, he's still in the grave. When that changes, compare him and Jesus again. Then you might be on to something. :wink:

[Bill the Cat]

:zombie3: