Ordaining Women

[John Reece]

In the April 2003 edition of First Things there is an excellent article by Jennifer Ferrara, who writes,

As a former Lutheran pastor who is now a Roman Catholic, I understand the confusion and tension surrounding the issue of women's ordination. My own spiritual and intellectual journey has resulted in my holding every possible position, from being supportive of women’s ordination, to not knowing what I believed, to being opposed to it. In fact, when I first began to seriously consider becoming a Roman Catholic, I disagreed with the Church’s practice of excluding women from the priesthood. I even set out to write an article outlining what I presumed to be the theological deficiencies with the Catholic Church’s position, which in retrospect seems like sheer arrogance. As I began to read in preparation for the article, I became increasingly convinced my presuppositions were wrong.

The article is fascinating, especially regarding what it was that transformed her thinking: John Paul II’s Catechesis on the Book of Genesis.

She is editing a book to be published in 2004, The Catholic Mystique: How Fifteen Women Found Fulfillment in the Church.

(edited to correct spelling)

[spl_cadet]

Cool. Is there a copy of First Things online?

[John Reece]

Spl_Cadet,

Re:

Cool. Is there a copy of First Things online?


http://www.firstthings.com/

You cannot read the current issue online without subscribing.

But if you are both frugal and patient, it will be online after the next print issue is published.

The article referred to is really worth reading, whether you subscribe and read now, or make arrangement to remind yourself to go to it online when it shows up there.

[bar Jonah]

While I am, myself, opposed to ordination of women as ministers... I couldn't care less what a Catholic theologian or priest has to say on this or pretty much any issue.

[Patroclus]

While I am, myself, opposed to ordination of women as ministers... I couldn't care less what a Catholic theologian or priest has to say on this or pretty much any issue.

RI, I am stunned.

[bar Jonah]

1. You already know I don't support the ordination of women.

2. You already know I don't consider Catholicism to be a form of Christianity (although a few are saved despite being Catholic).

What are you so stunned about?

[David O]

Wouldn't reading that book amount to being taught by a woman? 1 Tim 2:12 says not to let that happen.

[Patroclus]

-RI,

Hmm, perhaps it was sarcasm. Or maybe because I thought that you might respect the views of a Catholic theologian. Either way, it has been so long that I cannot remember.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 03:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=133444#post133444)
Patroclus:

-RI,

Hmm, perhaps it was sarcasm. Or maybe because I thought that you might respect the views of a Catholic theologian. Either way, it has been so long that I cannot remember.
Why would I respect the views of a Catholic theologian when I don't consider Catholicism to be Christian?

Heck, I don't respect the views of half the Christian theologians! :shrug:

[Little Cow]

I was raised as a Southern Baptist to believe that women had no place in the pulpit. They belonged in the helps ministry or on the mission field. We seemed perfectly willing to let them preach to men outside our country as long as they didn't teach our men.

David O:

Wouldn't reading that book amount to being taught by a woman? 1 Tim 2:12 says not to let that happen.

If you study this out in the greek. You will realize that there was not seperate words for woman or wife. There was only one word; the greek word "gune". The very next verse talks about Adams relationship with Eve. A husband and wife relationship.

Clearly in this context Paul was telling a wife not to usurp athority over her husband. Even in the early church there were prophetesses and deaconesses. These were women who by their position taught and had certain authority over some men.

I am not a woman but I have known many women called of the Lord to preach the gospel who have had a great impact on the world. These women were called of God and he showed it by granting signs and wonders to be performed through their ministries.

[David O]

I've studied this subject and the texts fo it for quite a few years now. I've looked over and over at the greek. I have concluded this; I used to and you currently wrongly divide the scriptures for your own desires, and try to justify it after the fact;

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

[Little Cow]

David O:

I used to and you currently wrongly divide the scriptures for your own desires, and try to justify it after the fact;:

Well, since I am a man I don't really have any desire to be a woman preacher. :kiss: And since I have never preached as a woman, I don't see how I could justify it after the fact. :thumb:

It has been my experience that people do have preconcieved ideas about scripture that are not scriptural. These can be things you were taught as a child or beliefs that are based on scriptures that are taken out of context. I don't see how you could study this subject "in depth" and draw a negative conclusion about women preaching and teaching.

Lets look at some biblical examples of women in the New Testament.

Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
KJV

Here in Acts the Lord says that sons and DAUGHTERS shall prophecy. Again in verse 18 the HANDMAIDENS shall prophecy.

I know that there are many different thoughts on what NT prophecy is, but everyone would agree that it is public speaking in ministry.

Luke 2:36-38
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
KJV

Here Anna was in the temple daily proclaiming the gospel to all those who saught after redemption in Jerusalem.

Now the Word says that every fact is to be confirmed by two or three wintesses so lets get another one.

Acts 18:24-26
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
KJV

Now in this text the great evangelist Apollos was corrected in his doctrine and taught by Priscilla and Aquila. These two women taught a man. Not just a man, but one the Bible says was fervent in the Spirit. This man accepted their teaching and went on to get many saved.

Now I don't want to just run a point into the ground. I just wanted to give some scriptural backup and examples for women in the ministry. Now if you are right than these women were out of the will of God and should have been rebuked. But instead these women were praised and their deeds are recorded in the Word of God.

The Bible cannot contradict itself. If it does then I am just going to throw in the towel right now with my ministry. If I can't believe one thing it says then I sure do doubt that I can believe everything else.

But I know that the Word is true and I can believe it. Now some things we have to study out. But I believe you are a student of the Word and love it as much as I do.

Thanks for posting that reply.

[David O]

Do you know which part of the temple were women allowed in? The rest of the actions would have been outside also. I've never heard Aquilla referred to as a woman. I believe that he did the talking and Priscilla let him teach, as Paul had commanded women not to teach. Thanks for being polite to me in your post. You logic causes contradictions to occur. None occur if you take the scripture as it stands. Praying and prophseying should be done in and outside of churches. Women are not to do it inside if it requires them to speak. The verses are realy simple and easy to understand.

[PuritanD]

Little Cow:[/i]

Luke 2:36-38
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
KJV

Here Anna was in the temple daily proclaiming the gospel to all those who saught after redemption in Jerusalem.

Fascinating, I am just wondering though in such a culture back then how many men actually went up "publically" to speak with Anna, where women were treated (unfortunately) like second class citizens. Hmmmmmm...

Acts 18:24-26
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
KJV

Now in this text the great evangelist Apollos was corrected in his doctrine and taught by Priscilla and Aquila. These two women taught a man. Not just a man, but one the Bible says was fervent in the Spirit. This man accepted their teaching and went on to get many saved.

Actually, this teaching was done not by two women but by a married couple, Aquila being the husband. Also if you care to note, they took Apollos into their home and privately instructed him about the way of the Lord. Also, we would be hard pressed to know exactly how much Priscilla participated in the discussion. We were not there, nor are we privy to their conversation.


Now I don't want to just run a point into the ground. I just wanted to give some scriptural backup and examples for women in the ministry. Now if you are right than these women were out of the will of God and should have been rebuked. But instead these women were praised and their deeds are recorded in the Word of God.

Your logic here is shallow at best. Abraham lied to a pharoh and a king about his relationship to Sarah. Yet, I doubt that we would condone lying, though Abraham was not rebuked by God and it was recorded in Scripture. Noah got drunk and yet was not rebuked fo his actions. Now, I am not suggesting that what was done by these women was wrong but am saying that your assumption is weak at best.

So far, your quotes do not provide enough evidence to disprove the idea that a woman should not be ordained for ministry behind the pulpit.

Truly, to prove your point you need to prove two things. 1) That when God created man and woman, both are equally responsible for the spiritual health of their marriage 2) 1 Tim 2 is a cultural argument.

Both are nearly impossible to do without doing some gymnastics with the texts.


PuritanD

[David O]

The Gay Bishop folk argue the same way you are arguing. Paul (the Holy Spirit through Paul) did not contradict himself. The scripture can not be broken. You casually break it, misrepresenting God, like Job's friends. Watch out.

[Jaltus]

While I think this is the wrong place for such a discussion, I could not help but see how bad an argument this is:

If you study this out in the greek. You will realize that there was not seperate words for woman or wife. There was only one word; the greek word "gune". The very next verse talks about Adams relationship with Eve. A husband and wife relationship.

You obviously do not understand Greek in its finer points, which is no biggie, but you must be careful what you plan on espousing until you do some more solid research. Generally the distinction between the two meanings (woman vs. wife) is based on context and on the possessive. Thus, if it said the gunh of one anhr, it makes sense. However, Paul uses no possessive pronuons (which he uses every single time he talks of husbands and wives) and thus there is no reason to assume it means only husbands and wives. Besides, the verse makes no sense if you put husbands and wives into the translation:

7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 Therefore I want the husbands in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
9 Likewise, I want wives to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for wives making a claim to godliness.
11 A wife must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12 But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet.

This becomes nonsensical, for it does not say a wife and her husband, but all wives and all husbands due to the lack of the article or a possessive pronoun. We now have the conundrum of married women not being allowed to teach married men, but unmarried women can teach whomever they wish. That makes no sense! Obviously this is a case of a misunderstanding of the argument and the grammar.

Clearly in this context Paul was telling a wife not to usurp athority over her husband. Even in the early church there were prophetesses and deaconesses. These were women who by their position taught and had certain authority over some men.

Actually, deaconesses would not be teachers, as there is no evidence of deacons teaching in the Bible at all. Prophets, male or female, teach only by the word of God, and it is seen as a spiritual gift, not vested under the person's own authority. Again, you made the false assumption about "her" husband when there are no possessives in the context.

I am not a woman but I have known many women called of the Lord to preach the gospel who have had a great impact on the world. These women were called of God and he showed it by granting signs and wonders to be performed through their ministries.

Test the spirits.

[David O]

08-16-2003 @ 03:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=187016#post187016)
Jaltus:




Test the spirits.


Yes.
1 John 4:1-4
My family suffers great disorder because of their involvement with Aimee Semple McPhearson's church.
Ask the person or the spirit out loud. If they do not answer, or give something vague, they are not from God. Keep record of the fruits of their ministry over a long period of time. Look for rebellion, it is the common theme of all evil works.