Ques; What Is TheChristian's Concept Of God?

[Ezraarah]

Ans ; Christian Confess with their Lips , and believe in their hearts that Christ Jesus . was born of A Virgin and that Thehos < Greek > God raised him from The Dead . CHRISTIANS CLAIM THAT The Holy Bible States that those who so believe , Will Enjoy Everlasting Life . and those Who Do Not Accept Jesusas The Son Of God , Are Destined For The Lake Of Fire . HowEver , This Is A Misquote . You can not find this AnyWhere As A Whole Verse Or Quote. In fact Jesus tells You that He Is The Way To The Father . , Not Himself ; And He Makes This Clear In The Books Of Romans 8 ; 14 And John 1 ; 12 , And I Quote; '' But As Many As ReceiveHim To Them Gave He Power To BecomesThe Sons Of God. Even To Them That BelieveOn His Name, '' Then In Matthew 6 ; 9 AndI Quote '' After This Manner Therefore Pray Ye ; Our Father Which Art In Heaven , Hallow Be Thy Name '' There Is No Difference Between The Way A MuslimsWould See God AndJesusThan Any Christian . Jesus Merely Claims That All HumanBeing From Adam To The End Of The World Luke 3 ; 38 And I Quote '' Which Was The Son Of Enos, Which Was The Son Of Seth . Which Was The Son Of Adam , Which Was The Son Of God ...
Are Sons And Daughter Of God AndThat You Should Refer To Him As '' Our Father . It Is Clear That Jesus Was Not Speaking About Himself Only As A Son Of God Or That God Of Heaven Was Only His God Or That God Of Heaven Was Only His Father . The Muslims many not use the term '' Allah Is Our Heavenly Father '' But in fact they believe according to the Koran 2 ; 30 , in part and I Quote '' Behold Thy Lord Said To The Angels ; I Will Create A Vice - Regent On The Earth , ... The word being used for '' Vice - Regent Is Khaliyfat And Comes From The Root Word '' Khalafa and Means A Succesor Or Someone Who Succeeds A Previous Ruler Left Behind '' And According To Islaamic Teaching Leadership Is Passed Down From Father To First Son ; As In The Story Of Abraham And Ishmael That They So Frequently Use . So Then . This Lord Was Allah And This Khalifa was his Succesor Adam , Makeing Adam A Son Of Allah ; And With The Fact The Koran 4 ; 1 Also Declares And I Quote <>O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
It is clear that the Single Person was Adam ; and that all other Human Being After Him Came From Him . This Includes His Wife Whose NameThe Koran Never Mentions . Yet Outside The Koran . She Is Called By Muhammadans '' Hawwah '' Which Comes From The Hebrew Of Genesis 3 ; 20 Where We Find '' Khawah '' Which Means '' Life , Or Living '' For TheName Eve . Therefore , After These Two , All Men And All Women . Are Children Of Allah , Their Heavenly Father .

[Jude3b]

The Relationship of God and Jesus is best explained in the doctrine of the Trinity. God is one; however God is expressed in three personal ways, roles, or functions: God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The unity of God is preserved in oneness while the richness of the nature and work of God is demonstrated in diverse ways.

Jesus Christ is referred to as the incarnation of God - God's Word became flesh.

[barryrob]

The Relationship of God and Jesus is best explained in the doctrine of the Trinity. God is one; however God is expressed in three personal ways, roles, or functions: God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The unity of God is preserved in oneness while the richness of the nature and work of God is demonstrated in diverse ways.

Jesus Christ is referred to as the incarnation of God - God's Word became flesh.o

[barryrob]

Ans ; Christian Confess with their Lips , and believe in their hearts that Christ Jesus . was born of A Virgin and that Thehos < Greek > God raised him from The Dead . CHRISTIANS CLAIM THAT The Holy Bible States that those who so believe , Will Enjoy Everlasting Life . and those Who

Do Not Accept Jesusas The Son Of God , Are Destined For The Lake Of Fire . HowEver , This Is A Misquote . You can not find this AnyWhere As A Whole Verse Or Quote. In fact Jesus tells You that He Is The Way To The Father . , Not Himself ; And He Makes This Clear In The Books Of Romans 8 ; 14 And John 1 ; 12 , And I Quote; '' But As Many As ReceiveHim To Them Gave He Power To BecomesThe Sons Of God. Even To Them That BelieveOn His Name, '' Then In Matthew 6 ; 9 AndI Quote '' After This Manner Therefore Pray Ye ; Our Father Which Art In Heaven , Hallow Be Thy Name '' There Is No Difference Between The Way A MuslimsWould See God AndJesusThan Any Christian . Jesus Merely Claims That All HumanBeing From Adam To The End Of The World Luke 3 ; 38 And I Quote '' Which Was The Son Of Enos, Which Was The Son Of Seth . Which Was The Son Of Adam , Which Was The Son Of God ...

Are Sons And Daughter Of God AndThat You Should Refer To Him As '' Our Father . It Is Clear That Jesus Was Not Speaking About Himself Only As A Son Of God Or That God Of Heaven Was Only His God Or That God Of Heaven Was Only His Father . The Muslims many not use the term '' Allah Is Our Heavenly Father '' But in fact they believe according to the Koran 2 ; 30 , in part and I Quote '' Behold Thy Lord Said To The Angels ; I Will Create A Vice - Regent On The Earth , ... The word being used for '' Vice - Regent Is Khaliyfat And Comes From The Root Word '' Khalafa and Means A Succesor Or Someone Who Succeeds A Previous Ruler Left Behind '' And According To Islaamic Teaching Leadership Is Passed Down From Father To First Son ; As In The Story Of Abraham And Ishmael That They So Frequently Use . So Then . This Lord Was Allah And This Khalifa was his Succesor Adam , Makeing Adam A Son Of Allah ; And With The Fact The Koran 4 ; 1 Also Declares And I Quote <>O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

It is clear that the Single Person was Adam ; and that all other Human Being After Him Came From Him . This Includes His Wife Whose NameThe Koran Never Mentions . Yet Outside The Koran . She Is Called By Muhammadans '' Hawwah '' Which Comes From The Hebrew Of Genesis 3 ; 20 Where We Find '' Khawah '' Which Means '' Life , Or Living '' For TheName Eve . Therefore , After These Two , All Men And All Women . Are Children Of Allah , Their Heavenly Father .



The Bible tells us that God is ONE and ONE alone:-



Deuteronomy 6:4 "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.


Zechariah 14:9 And Jehovah must become king over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will prove to be one, and his name one.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 4:4-6 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

The Trinity is a pagan teaching adopted by the Church to placate pagans who they wanted to bring in to the church so the church excepted thier ideas.

We Jehovah's Christian Witnesses total reject such pagan ideas as:-

1 Timothy 4:1-2 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, . . .


Barryrob

[Snarf]

I can understand the confusion. The Trinity is not described in the Bible, it was a philosophical construct devised in the 4th century by the Church Fathers who were trying to reconcile monotheism with a belief in God the Father and God the Son. Such a description needed to be devised because there are many places which imply that God the Father and Jesus were different ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"), and there were other places that implied that they were the same (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh). Many Christians in the early Church did not accept that Jesus was God, because it would have not been monotheism. In fact, during the Arian crisis of the 4th century, at one point the Church decreed that Jesus was not God. During this time, lots of people came up with creative means for describing the relationship between Jesus and the Father, and the Trinity is the most widely accepted.

But there is an easy way around this all. God, whether Jehovah or Allah, or the Hindu god for that matter, are immaterial beings, without a physical essence. Thus, there is no reason to suppose that a god must be an isolated portion of immaterial essence analagous to a human as an organic creature.
When a document says "God is one," what does that mean? One individual? One group? One association? One with many expressions? One with many faces? To suppose that God must be a solitary individual, made of a substance that is not matter, is ultimately a human construct (unless there is an anatomical description of Allah in the Koran, I wouldn't know, there is none in the Bible).

Thus, if one describes God as consisting of three beings united in thought and purpose, and substance, then that makes God a tightly knit association, three beings acting as one, or three parts of the same God, or three faces of the same God. This is not polytheism, since polytheism describes many gods who act individually (like on Olympus).

A more difficult question is this, and I'm interested in your answer. If there is one God, is it possible that one God could show himself as the Father to some and as Allah to others? If Allah is the only God, then what does that make Jesus or Yahweh? If He is all-powerful, and can do anything, then why does He have to fit the mold of the description of any one group of people?

[barryrob]

I can understand the confusion. The Trinity is not described in the Bible, it was a philosophical construct devised in the 4th century by the Church Fathers who were trying to reconcile monotheism with a belief in God the Father and God the Son. Such a description needed to be devised because there are many places which imply that God the Father and Jesus were different ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"), and there were other places that implied that they were the same (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh). Many Christians in the early Church did not accept that Jesus was God, because it would have not been monotheism. In fact, during the Arian crisis of the 4th century, at one point the Church decreed that Jesus was not God. During this time, lots of people came up with creative means for describing the relationship between Jesus and the Father, and the Trinity is the most widely accepted.

But there is an easy way around this all. God, whether Jehovah or Allah, or the Hindu god for that matter, are immaterial beings, without a physical essence. Thus, there is no reason to suppose that a god must be an isolated portion of immaterial essence analagous to a human as an organic creature.
When a document says "God is one," what does that mean? One individual? One group? One association? One with many expressions? One with many faces? To suppose that God must be a solitary individual, made of a substance that is not matter, is ultimately a human construct (unless there is an anatomical description of Allah in the Koran, I wouldn't know, there is none in the Bible).

Thus, if one describes God as consisting of three beings united in thought and purpose, and substance, then that makes God a tightly knit association, three beings acting as one, or three parts of the same God, or three faces of the same God. This is not polytheism, since polytheism describes many gods who act individually (like on Olympus).

A more difficult question is this, and I'm interested in your answer. If there is one God, is it possible that one God could show himself as the Father to some and as Allah to others? If Allah is the only God, then what does that make Jesus or Yahweh? If He is all-powerful, and can do anything, then why does He have to fit the mold of the description of any one group of people?
Deuteronomy 6:4

""Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."



In the above material "One" is numerically one in the absolute, so in the context of scripture and Jewish theology God is one even though "Elohim" is in the plural form, to requote:-

"God. The Hebrew has the plural form, the plural of majesty; but no idea of plurality is to be read into the word, because the verb, created is in the singular (E. [Abraham Ibn Ezra])."-The Soncino Chumash Ed. by The Rev. Dr. A. Cohen M.A., Ph.D., D.H.L. page 1"

leaving no room for any form of trinity or the like.


Mark 12:29 "Jesus answered: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."



One here also is in the absolute or one individual. Jesus is totally another subordinate being and an individual in his own right.



Who is God? This was revealed to Moses (confirmed by Jesus in the above) and has never changed:-



Exodus 3:15 "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."



God tells us how he is to be venerated as in the above. Allah just means God. The God of Abraham, Moses etc. all the prophets, including Jesus, gives himself a personal Name -Jehovah- that will be his personal Name forever.



Barryrob

[Snarf]

Deuteronomy 6:4

""Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."



In the above material "One" is numerically one in the absolute, so in the context of scripture and Jewish theology God is one even though "Elohim" is in the plural form, to requote:-

"God. The Hebrew has the plural form, the plural of majesty; but no idea of plurality is to be read into the word, because the verb, created is in the singular (E. [Abraham Ibn Ezra])."-The Soncino Chumash Ed. by The Rev. Dr. A. Cohen M.A., Ph.D., D.H.L. page 1"


leaving no room for any form of trinity or the like.


Mark 12:29 "Jesus answered: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."



One here also is in the absolute or one individual. Jesus is totally another subordinate being and an individual in his own right.



Who is God? This was revealed to Moses (confirmed by Jesus in the above) and has never changed:-



Exodus 3:15 "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."



God tells us how he is to be venerated as in the above. Allah just means God. The God of Abraham, Moses etc. all the prophets, including Jesus, gives himself a personal Name -Jehovah- that will be his personal Name forever.



Barryrob

Thank you for the commentary, but my question remains: One what? "One" is a number which describes the quantity of some noun. It is also sometimes used to describe a common property of a group of things "they were one in agreement."

If God is non-material, then how do you know that He is an individual? For an individual to exist, there is some physical boundary (like skin, fur, etc.)

Then there also the omnipotency point: an all-powerful God can make Himself be the father, and also come to Earth and be born of a virgin, whether or not you happen to agree. Likewise, an all-powerful God can give to some (Jews) a revelation about Himself which is different than to others (e.g. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc.) and still be the one true God to all, even if the followers of the respctive religions don't believe this.

[barryrob]

Thank you for the commentary, but my question remains: One what? "One" is a number which describes the quantity of some noun. It is also sometimes used to describe a common property of a group of things "they were one in agreement."

If God is non-material, then how do you know that He is an individual? For an individual to exist, there is some physical boundary (like skin, fur, etc.)

Then there also the omnipotency point: an all-powerful God can make Himself be the father, and also come to Earth and be born of a virgin, whether or not you happen to agree. Likewise, an all-powerful God can give to some (Jews) a revelation about Himself which is different than to others (e.g. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc.) and still be the one true God to all, even if the followers of the respctive religions don't believe this.
One spirit transendant person:-



John 4:24 ". . .God is a Spirit,..."






To answer your last points, No God cannot come to this earth.





The true God never changes himself and has only revealed himself via the pages of the Bible. All other things than his that are worshiped are false.The




1st of the 10 commandments make this clear:-





Exodus 20:2-3 "I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.





Barryrob

[Sparko]

One spirit transendant person:-

John 4:24 ". . .God is a Spirit,..."


To answer your last points, No God cannot come to this earth.
Isn't God omnipresent? everywhere at once? So he is on earth and everywhere in the universe at the same time.



The true God never changes himself and has only revealed himself via the pages of the Bible. All other things than his that are worshiped are false. The 1st of the 10 commandments make this clear:-

Exodus 20:2-3 "I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.

Barryrob


Wow, then you Jehovah's witnesses are in deep trouble. In other threads you kept telling me that Jesus was another god (with a little g of course)
So I guess that makes him a false god according to your logic above.

[barryrob]

Isn't God omnipresent? everywhere at once? So he is on earth and everywhere in the universe at the same time.
[/left]



Wow, then you Jehovah's witnesses are in deep trouble. In other threads you kept telling me that Jesus was another god (with a little g of course)
So I guess that makes him a false god according to your logic above.

What you did not say is that Jehovah's Witnesses do not worship Jesus, a subordinated and lesser being, a creation of God, like you and all other pagan Trinitarians! If you make a statement tell it all not just the bit that fit our pagan God based ideas!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

But you told me Jesus was a god in several previous posts. and above you said that anything worshipped that is not Almighty God is a false god.

So if I worship Jesus, and he is a god, but not THE Almighty God, then I must be worshiping a false God, right? That means Jesus is a false God according to you.

Whether you worship him or not makes no difference. I do and so do millions of others, and they even did so in the bible. And he accepted their worship.

So according to your definition, Jesus must be a false god. Either that or he is the REAL God.

[barryrob]

But you told me Jesus was a god in several previous posts. and above you said that anything worshipped that is not Almighty God is a false god.

So if I worship Jesus, and he is a god, but not THE Almighty God, then I must be worshiping a false God, right? That means Jesus is a false God according to you.

Whether you worship him or not makes no difference. I do and so do millions of others, and they even did so in the bible. And he accepted their worship.

So according to your definition, Jesus must be a false god. Either that or he is the REAL God.As you WORSHIP Jesus as Almighty God, which Almighty God is wrong, ref. the 1st Commandment, YOU AND ALL TRINATERIANS MAKE JESUS INTO A FALSE GOD BY YOUR WORSHIP OF HIM.


You know as well as 1,000s of others that God call other things god(s) in the Bible e.g. 1) by their being a divine entity 2) by them receiving worship of humans, 3) or having Great power bestowed on them. In No. 1 you know as well as I do it is a title given them by the Almighty due to thee position and power, in No. 2 the Satanic inspired actions of humans make them into false gods because the are worshiped instead of the ONE Almighty God. In No. 3 Angels. "The Word" (also know as Jesus) and even humans have great power GIVEN to them by The Almighty God this they are godlike as in some instances they are given the power of judging but they are still inferior and subordinate to The Almighty God.


So it is you Trinitarians that actually make Jesus into a false God, a Satanic Demigod God (as this is what Satan wants, the worship of anything except Almighty God of Abraham and Moses etc.), Almighty God condemns Worship of Jesus as God Incarnate or the like:-


Malachi 1:11 "For from the sun’s rising even to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place sacrificial smoke will be made, a presentation will be made to my name, even a clean gift; because my name will be great among the nations," Jehovah* of armies has said.
*Not Jesus Name!
and

“I am Jehovah (Heb. vuvh). That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images."-Isaiah 42:8


The Church even turns Jesus into a useless voiceless Idol by hanging his images on wall and then praying to them or him, gross idolatry that is Satanic and makes the Prince of Darkness overjoyed.

Ezekiel 14:6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: "Come back and turn yourselves back from YOUR dungy idols and turn YOUR faces back even from all YOUR detestable things;. .


1 John 5:21 . . .guard yourselves from idols.

Psalm 115:4-8 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. 7 Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. 8 Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them.

You say the Jesus is Your God, then you even knowingly disobey Him as he told you to:-

John 4:23-24 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."

You do not worship "The Father" in "truth" you worship something he made instead, you worship the Creation instead of the Creator: -

Romans 1:24-25 ".... even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation* rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen.
*In this case Jesus!

You Worship a Lie you even make Jesus into a liar because He Himself said:-

John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I am."


You do not even believe the very words of the one whom You Call Your God, your faith is a shame based of falsehoods. That is why the Churches are in such an appalling disarray, divided, and full with so many moral perversions and whole weak and turn people away from themselves as they do not obey God but as Paul said:-

Titus 1:16 "They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort."

I would personally rather die they worship your way and your God. I might even have to one day, I hope Jehovah will give me the strength to stay faithful to him and not some sham religious ideas based on Pagan Greek theology and philosophy.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

So it is you Trinitarians that actually make Jesus into a false God, a Satanic Demigod God (as this is what Satan wants, the worship of anything except Almighty God of Abraham and Moses etc.), Almighty God condemns Worship of Jesus as God Incarnate or the like:-

Wow. So now you say Jesus is a satanic demigod because he is worshipped?

Strong words for a Christian to use.


Think of it like this.

Thor is worshipped by some people as a God. But he isn't really God. He is a false God to me and you. But he is a "true" god to his worshippers, cuz they are misled, right? But we know he is a false God.

So because we do not worship Thor, we know he is a false God.


So turn that around. I worship Jesus as God. You do not. To me Jesus is really God. But because you do not worship Jesus as God, then he is a false God to you.

And, in your words, a "satanic demigod God" - I think you need to either pray for forgiveness of your blasphemy, or you better stop calling yourself a follower of Christ.

This is no joking matter Barryrob. You have blasphemed. When the pharisees claimed Jesus's was of the devil he condemned them for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12: 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+12&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_39581898_4)] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[barryrob]

Wow. So now you say Jesus is a satanic demigod because he is worshipped?

Strong words for a Christian to use.

Think of it like this.

Thor is worshipped by some people as a God. But he isn't really God. He is a false God to me and you. But he is a "true" god to his worshippers, cuz they are misled, right? But we know he is a false God.

So because we do not worship Thor, we know he is a false God.


So turn that around. I worship Jesus as God. You do not. To me Jesus is really God. But because you do not worship Jesus as God, then he is a false God to you.

And, in your words, a "satanic demigod God" - I think you need to either pray for forgiveness of your blasphemy, or you better stop calling yourself a follower of Christ.

This is no joking matter Barryrob. You have blasphemed. When the pharisees claimed Jesus's was of the devil he condemned them for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12: 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+12&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_39581898_4)] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
As the offspring of The Almighty or a Creation of his as well as being God's Prophet that we must obey Jesus said:-

John 4:21-24 Jesus said to her: "Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 YOU worship what YOU do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.. . .


Jesus half brother said:-



James 1:27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.



Paul said:-


1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.



Jesus is given the title "Lord" because of who he is God's Prophet, but in the above text Almighty God is differentiated from his by being called God.


You do not obey the above as you put Jesus in God's place.


What you call "blasphemy" means nothing, as it is the truth from God. What the pseudo Christian Churches teach is not from the God of the Bible but a counterfeit from Satan The Devil and not of The True Teachings of God or his Prophet Jesus, so what you say is impotent from God's view and useless in man's.



Barryrob

[Sparko]

As the offspring of The Almighty or a Creation of his as well as being God's Prophet that we must obey Jesus said:-
Like begets like, a horse begets a horse, and a dog begets a dog, and a human begets a huma. If Jesus is God's offspring and was begotton of God, then what does a God begat? A God begets God. And since there can not be TWO Gods (God is one) then the begotton God must be the SAME God. One GOD and Jesus is God.


Jesus was worshiped and accepted the worship in the bible. Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Note: the Greek word used for worship in the above passages is the same word as used when speaking of worshiping God, the Father. So the worship Jesus received was the same kind and level of worship the Father received. Jesus never reprimanded anyone for this worship, in fact he accepted it as his due.

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Saying that Jesus should be honored JUST as they honor the Father, Jesus was claiming EQUALITY with the Father in all respects, for how can someone honor a lesser person to the same degree as a greater?

The Fourfold Gospel notes say: " ’Even as’ means in the same manner and in equal degree. The prerogative of judgment was committed unto Jesus that men might behold his true majesty. If this verse does not teach us to worship Jesus as God, language cannot teach it, for God gives not his glory unto another.”

And a few verses previous to this we see:

John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

When Jesus (Son of God) called God “My Father” the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be more than “a” son of God. He was claiming he was equal to God. Jesus = God. Someone could be a son of God in a metaphorical sense, but Jesus was claiming he was the Son of God. A true son would have the Nature of his Father, in this case being a God. Since there can only be one God, the Jews took this as Blasphemy. John Wesley’s Notes on the Bible says this: “His own Father - The Greek word means his own Father in such a sense as no creature can speak. Making himself equal with God - It is evident all the hearers so understood him, and that our Lord never contradicted, but confirmed it.”

Jesus would have corrected the Jews if their conclusion was wrong. He didn’t. Instead he claimed that they should honor him just as they honor the Father (see John 5:22 above)






What you call "blasphemy" means nothing, as it is the truth from God. What the pseudo Christian Churches teach is not from the God of the Bible but a counterfeit from Satan The Devil and not of The True Teachings of God or his Prophet Jesus, so what you say is impotent from God's view and useless in man's.

Hey. You were the one calling Jesus a false satanic demigod. May God have mercy on YOUR soul.

[barryrob]

Like begets like, a horse begets a horse, and a dog begets a dog, and a human begets a huma. If Jesus is God's offspring and was begotton of God, then what does a God begat? A God begets God. And since there can not be TWO Gods (God is one) then the begotton God must be the SAME God. One GOD and Jesus is God.






Jesus was worshiped and accepted the worship in the bible.Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.



Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."



Note: the Greek word used for worship in the above passages is the same word as used when speaking of worshiping God, the Father. So the worship Jesus received was the same kind and level of worship the Father received. Jesus never reprimanded anyone for this worship, in fact he accepted it as his due.






John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.





Saying that Jesus should be honored JUST as they honor the Father, Jesus was claiming EQUALITY with the Father in all respects, for how can someone honor a lesser person to the same degree as a greater?



The Fourfold Gospel notes say: " ’Even as’ means in the same manner and in equal degree. The prerogative of judgment was committed unto Jesus that men might behold his true majesty. If this verse does not teach us to worship Jesus as God, language cannot teach it, for God gives not his glory unto another.”

And a few verses previous to this we see:




John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.





When Jesus (Son of God) called God “My Father” the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be more than “a” son of God. He was claiming he was equal to God. Jesus = God. Someone could be a son of God in a metaphorical sense, but Jesus was claiming he was the Son of God. A true son would have the Nature of his Father, in this case being a God. Since there can only be one God, the Jews took this as Blasphemy. John Wesley’s Notes on the Bible says this: “His own Father - The Greek word means his own Father in such a sense as no creature can speak. Making himself equal with God - It is evident all the hearers so understood him, and that our Lord never contradicted, but confirmed it.”



Jesus would have corrected the Jews if their conclusion was wrong. He didn’t. Instead he claimed that they should honor him just as they honor the Father (see John 5:22 above)







Hey. You were the one calling Jesus a false satanic demigod. May God have mercy on YOUR soul.

So you have two Almighty Gods as your (not mine) God begets God. What do you expect J. Wesley to say as he in under the same influance as all Triadic God worshipers.

If someone does a kindness to my or for my son he does my whole family a goodness due to the bond of love, same with Jesus and God also visa versa.


That is what they thought but it is not what Jesus ment as my posts show Jesus told people to Worship His God:-




John 20:17 "Jesus said . . .and to my God and YOUR God.’. . ."






You obviosly do not believe The prophet Jesus' words, thus I do not believe your!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Er, so you just ignore all the evidence that Jesus was worshipped and hope it will go away?

Nice try but all the ignoring and handwaving and subject changing in the world will not change the fact that Jesus WAS worshipped, that the word for worship was the same word used as for the Father, and Jesus accepted this worship and even thought it was his due. Forget the commentary of John Wesley, read the scriptures themselves.

So either Jesus is what you called him: a Satanic Demigod, or he was a lunatic, or he truly was God.

[barryrob]

Er, so you just ignore all the evidence that Jesus was worshipped and hope it will go away?

Nice try but all the ignoring and handwaving and subject changing in the world will not change the fact that Jesus WAS worshipped, that the word for worship was the same word used as for the Father, and Jesus accepted this worship and even thought it was his due. Forget the commentary of John Wesley, read the scriptures themselves.

So either Jesus is what you called him: a Satanic Demigod, or he was a lunatic, or he truly was God.
I would like to reply but I think we have hijacked Ezraarah (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/member.php?u=3552) vbmenu_register("postmenu_494498", true); 's thread, would you like to move to another thread? Sorry Ezraarah.


Barryrob

[Sparko]

He hasn't been on this website since May.

[barryrob]

Er, so you just ignore all the evidence that Jesus was worshipped and hope it will go away?

Nice try but all the ignoring and handwaving and subject changing in the world will not change the fact that Jesus WAS worshipped, that the word for worship was the same word used as for the Father, and Jesus accepted this worship and even thought it was his due. Forget the commentary of John Wesley, read the scriptures themselves.

So either Jesus is what you called him: a Satanic Demigod, or he was a lunatic, or he truly was God.
Give me some?

[Sparko]

Go back and read my earlier post. I quoted many scriptures.

[barryrob]

Jesus was worshiped and accepted the worship in the bible.Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.



Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."



Note: the Greek word used for worship in the above passages is the same word as used when speaking of worshiping God, the Father. So the worship Jesus received was the same kind and level of worship the Father received. Jesus never reprimanded anyone for this worship, in fact he accepted it as his due.

N.W.T. Renderings-
Matthew 2:2 “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”



Matthew 2:11 And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. . .


Matthew 14:33-34 Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.” 34 And they got across and came to land in Gennesaret.


Matthew 28:9 And, look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and caught him by his feet and did obeisance to him.


Luke 24:51-52 As he was blessing them he was parted from them and began to be borne up to heaven. 52 And they did obeisance to him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.


John 9:37-38 Jesus said to him: “You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.” 38 Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.


Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

In certain instances the word "worship" does not always mean worship in the sense that would first comes to mind which is that of a God etc. in the following Bible verse the word "worship" is applied to a man in one of Jesus' parables, Luke 14:10 "But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship (Gk. doxa, glory) in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." (K.J.V.) In the time that the K.J.V. of the Bible was produced, 1611, the word "worship" had several meaning in the then what we call today "Old English", as the following definition and the forgoing scripture shows.



"worship —n. 1 a homage or service to a deity. b acts, rites, or ceremonies of this.

2 adoration, devotion^.

3 (Worship) (prec. by His, Her, Your) forms of description or address for a mayor, certain magistrates, etc. —v. (-pp-; US -p-)

1 adore as divine; honour with religious rites.

2 idolize or regard with adoration.

3 attend public worship.

4 be full of adoration. worshipper n. [Old English: related to *worth, *-ship]."-'Oxford Dictionary'

^This form of “worship” can be done towards Humans & Christ but it differs from No. 1.





"WORSHIP. Our English word means "worthship." denoting worthiness of an individual to receive special honor in accordance with that worth. The principal biblical terms, the Hebrew saha and the Greek proskyneo, emphasize the act of prostration, the doing of obeisance. This may be done out of regard for the dignity of personality and influence somewhat by custom (Gen. 18:2), or may be based on family relationship (Gen 49:8) or on station in life (1 Kings 1:31). On a higher plane the same terms are used of divine honors to a deity, whether to the gods of the nations (e.g. Ex. 20:5) or to the one true and living God who reveals himself in the Scriptures and in his Son (ex. 24:1).""- Baker's Dictionary of Theology Published by Baker Book House p.560




According to the above definitions and explanation of the use of the Greek word "proskyneo" it may be translated as "worship" when it is used in matters relating to sacred things and to Almighty God, a lesser, and or false god, gods or as "obeisance" when used man to man, man to Christ, (can be secular) or lesser divine being to another divine being but as "worship" in matter of other creatures toward the Almighty God etc.. These deferring uses of "proskyneo" will always be governed by the scriptural context wherein it is used, which in turn will be affected by the translators own theological doctrines.


Barryrob

[Sparko]

I am sorry barryrob, but the NWT translation is wrong to change the word to obeisance. The same word AND CONTEXT in the greek is used for speaking of worshipping Jesus and in worshipping the Father. Not one whit of difference. You can try to deny it, but you are wrong. The way the word is used in the verses shows that it meant WORSHIP!

And by the way, Obeisance is not another word for "worship" - it is a gesture like a bow or courtsey to express deference or homage. It is also an ACT OF WORSHIP.

And there are many other greek words that can be used if they only meant "honor" or "bow" or "courtsey" but they did not use them. They used the word "worship"

But even allowing that the word proskyneo might refer to bowing or crouching, that would be an act of worship that Jesus should have refused to allow. If He was not God, he should have said "Hey get up, I am only a man!" - but he did not. He accepted it as his due.

In two other cases where someone bowed down in front of a man or even an angel, they were rebuked for doing it.

Acts: 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

the word for worship here is also the same as used for Jesus, and the NIV even renders it as "reverence" instead of "worship" - but it clearly means the same thing, and Peter rebuked him for doing it!

and in Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

So, if they were even just bowing and scraping before Jesus, he should have rebuked them!

But he did not. He accepted it. He was God.

[barryrob]

I am sorry barryrob, but the NWT translation is wrong to change the word to obeisance. The same word AND CONTEXT in the greek is used for speaking of worshipping Jesus and in worshipping the Father. Not one whit of difference. You can try to deny it, but you are wrong. The way the word is used in the verses shows that it meant WORSHIP!

And by the way, Obeisance is not another word for "worship" - it is a gesture like a bow or courtsey to express deference or homage. It is also an ACT OF WORSHIP.

And there are many other greek words that can be used if they only meant "honor" or "bow" or "courtsey" but they did not use them. They used the word "worship"

But even allowing that the word proskyneo might refer to bowing or crouching, that would be an act of worship that Jesus should have refused to allow. If He was not God, he should have said "Hey get up, I am only a man!" - but he did not. He accepted it as his due.

In two other cases where someone bowed down in front of a man or even an angel, they were rebuked for doing it.

Acts: 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

the word for worship here is also the same as used for Jesus, and the NIV even renders it as "reverence" instead of "worship" - but it clearly means the same thing, and Peter rebuked him for doing it!

and in Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

So, if they were even just bowing and scraping before Jesus, he should have rebuked them!

But he did not. He accepted it. He was God.

Your theology demands the rendering "worship" as you think Jesus is God, whereas ours demands the rendering "obeisance" because we don not except Jesus as God.

Her is another shade of opinion:-
"Mark 5:6 Worshipped It is true that proskyneo (from kyneo, "kiss") means "to make obeisance, do reverence to, worship" ([G.] A[bbott]-S[mith], p.386). Arndt and Gingrich note that the verb was "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person or kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc.; the Persian did this in the presence of their defied king, and the Greeks before a divinity or something holy" (p.716) But it was also used for a slave prostrating himself before his master (Matt 18:26*). The pertinent question remains: would the demon-possessed man be worshiping Jesus, even though he called Him "Son of the Most High God" (NASB, NIV, RSV)? Probably "Fell on his knees in front of him" (NIV) is a safer translation."-Word Meanings in the New Testament by Ralph Earle p.37

As I said ones theology comes into play here.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Wow, you have a HUGE blind spot, don't you? You totally ignored my whole argument, then turned around and proved me right.

I said in my post that obeisance meant bowing and scraping, that is was an ACT of worship, not the word for worship itself, and you turn around and give me the same explanation and say that proves me wrong?

Go back and read my post again. What happened when men did that same thing to Peter and when John did it to an angel? Those that did it were rebuked for worshipping something other than God.

Yet Jesus did not object to being worshipped, HE ACCEPTED IT. Were any of those people Jesus' slave? NO! They were FREE men and fellow Jews. For a jew to bow and scrape in front of another Jew in worshipful poses would be blashphemy! Even if it were meant innocently, Jesus would have been honor bound to rebuke them on the matter, just like Peter did and the Angel did.

:bow: <--- They did this to Jesus and he did not REBUKE them. He accepted the worship because he IS God (or at least beleived himself to be)

He either was a demon from hell as you said earlier (pray for forgiveness for that) or he was a lunatic who thought he was God, or he REALLY WAS GOD.

The only rational choice is that he Really was God.

Now, if you are just going to ignore this post and just post the same thing again, then don't bother.

[barryrob]

Wow, you have a HUGE blind spot, don't you? You totally ignored my whole argument, then turned around and proved me right.

I said in my post that obeisance meant bowing and scraping, that is was an ACT of worship, not the word for worship itself, and you turn around and give me the same explanation and say that proves me wrong?

Go back and read my post again. What happened when men did that same thing to Peter and when John did it to an angel? Those that did it were rebuked for worshipping something other than God.

Yet Jesus did not object to being worshipped, HE ACCEPTED IT. Were any of those people Jesus' slave? NO! They were FREE men and fellow Jews. For a jew to bow and scrape in front of another Jew in worshipful poses would be blashphemy! Even if it were meant innocently, Jesus would have been honor bound to rebuke them on the matter, just like Peter did and the Angel did.

:bow: <--- They did this to Jesus and he did not REBUKE them. He accepted the worship because he IS God (or at least beleived himself to be)

He either was a demon from hell as you said earlier (pray for forgiveness for that) or he was a lunatic who thought he was God, or he REALLY WAS GOD.

The only rational choice is that he Really was God.

Now, if you are just going to ignore this post and just post the same thing again, then don't bother.
Perhaps if I show tell you how I feel you may grasp my point. The Bible says:-

Philippians 2:9-11 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

The phrase "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth" includes ME I bend my kness to Jesus The Messiah as God's apointed King and High Priest and give him the Homage He is Due as such. But I bend my knee in Worship to His Father Only:-

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

This is what Jesus said, this I do!

We will never come to an understanding on this because your theology is as far as East is from West to mine, which is as it should be as I Worship Jehovah and you do not, you worship Jesus which to me is an abomination.
Barryrob

[Sparko]

That's right. Every Knee will Bow. Everyone WILL Worship the Son. Even you.

I just have a head start on you.

[barryrob]

That's right. Every Knee will Bow. Everyone WILL Worship the Son. Even you.

I just have a head start on you.

That not what I said John :no: