did the "morning star" give the revelations?

[Aardvark]

these questions have probly been covered, but honestly im too lazy to look
thru all the posts.
is it possible that muhammad received his revelations from
satan as opposed to gabriel?
also, in the old testament the prophets seem to know
when god was speaking to them. from my understanding,
muhammad was unsure. what of that?
good day

[ali420]

is it possible that muhammad received his revelations from
satan as opposed to gabriel?

It is possible. Its also possible that Jesus was Devil in disguise. Both are possiabilities, if one of them can be inspired by devil, what makes you think the other is not!

Before you ask this question, you will need to set a unbaised criteria on which you can judge the satan of inspiration. Bias criteria would be, judging the Quran by using Bible, or using the Quran to determine the authenticy of Bible. Secondly you will have to further develop the question of is it possible that muhammad received his revelations from satan as opposed to gabriel? into one more, Was the Revelation always from Satan?

And what ever methodology you use for Muhammed (pbuh) apply the same to Jesus. But remember the criteria has to be neutral, not drawn from your preconceived beleives or Bible.

And Lastly I have already written a dialoge which was between me and a Christian friend of mine, which has full answer to your question: http://groups.msn.com/IslamChristianty/debateboard.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=129&LastModified=4675451261107260778

Was-salam
Ali

[Aardvark]

ali,

i read your link and you make some good points :teeth:
im sorry if my question had that tone of accusation.
i honestly did not mean it that way.
i am truly fascinated by islam, is it true that it is now
growing faster than christianity? if so, what do you think
is the cause?
i am also curious if you have heard of a book called
*unvieling islam*? i am not sure who the authors are, but
i know that they are brothers who are muslims turned christian.
anyway, a friend of mine read it and really liked it.
peace for now

[ali420]

read your link and you make some good points

Thanks, I hope this has helped you to understand Islam better. If have anyother questions regarding Islam, you are more then welcome to ask me, I will do my best to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I would recomend that you join the msn community Islam&Christianity, because it doesnt have any activity so we can have a undisturbed disscussion. Oh yeah I am the manager of it, so you can say anything you like without the fear that you will be banned.

im sorry if my question had that tone of accusation.
i honestly did not mean it that way.

Appologies accepted. I have been disscusing Islam with Christians for years now, and during that period I have met all kind of individuals, rude, abbusive, polite, genuine enquirers, confused individuals, due to this I have developed quite a aggressive attitude toward those who question Islam for what so every. You can say I am a little paranoid, always aggressive to others because i have encountered so many people who abuse Islam, and my Prophet just for fun, due to this reason I write in a aggressive manner, because i am angry at them so I want them to also feel the pain that I am feeling because of there insults. For this reason I rarely write in a calm or collective manner.

"i am truly fascinated by islam, is it true that it is now
growing faster than christianity? if so, what do you think
is the cause?"

It is absolutely true that Islam is spreading alot faster then Christianity, especially among the educated class of Europe and America. If you consider the conversion rate to islam it is about five thousand, thats including Europe, and American conversions. Majority of those converts are woman (Read here the reasons why woman convert to Islam: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18797), and majority of those converts belong to the Christian back ground. In comparision Islam is not loosing any converts to Christianity in large numbers, those who have converted to Christianity are uneducated individuals who have no knowledge of Islam, but no excuses will hide the fact that Muslims do convert to other religions too. I have yet to hear or read in any book or historical record which shows that a Muslim Scholar abandoned Islam for Christianity, except one report that some shia-(Muslim) scholar converted to Christianity back in 18 century, which again counts for nothing considering that he belonged to the Druze sect of Shias who have more common with Christians then Islam, so he left home for another home, in simple words he left Shia-Christianity to join Christian-Christianity.

And I had a friend who was a JW from birth, he went to Nigeria for some months for preaching with his Kingdom Hall, he came back and said that we converted alot of pagan Africans to Christianity, but in 2 years time we did not manage to convert a single Muslim to Christianity, he further said that, in Algeria the converting a Muslim to Christianity is like receiving the highest honours in bollywood arena. He admitted that converting a Muslim to Christianity is same has bring the stars from heaven. The simple fact is that Muslims do not convert, for some reason perhaps its in our genes or something.

There is another arena in which Islam is growing faster, thats birth rate, often Muslims will quote you statistics that Islam has grown 253% in past som many years, in camprision christianity has not even have half of such rate. They fail to realise that higher birth rate does not mean that Islam is growing faster, this only indicates that Muslims have high birth rate, each house hold atleast has five children in middleEast, and Asian countries. The rapid increase in Muslim population is not due to Christians or Bhudhist, Hindu's converting to Islam, but due to the fact that Muslims have large families.

In Europe, America often people say that Islam is growing very fast, to this you will have to keep two things in mind, how many are actual converts to Islam, and how many are migrants to these continets. The reality is that conversion to Islam compared to other religions is very very high, but when you put it into the perspective of two continents, the five thousand converts is like looking for needle in the moutain of hay stock.

Now to the main point of your question, what are the reasons why Islam appeals to other people, in short because Islam has the solutions to almost all of the problems faced by Western World.

For the Christians it solves all the problems which a human mind cannot accept, trinity, the doctrine of original sin, death of Jesus for attonement mankind, Jesus being Son-of-God, regarding the discrepencies in the Bible regarding science. Like you mentioned in one of your message that earth is flat and square shape, despite knowing that there is nothing which proves your theory accurate, you insist that because the Bible says, it must be true. And one of the reasons you gave for your beleife is that people in the bottom of the earth will have the blood go into there eyes or brain (something like that), but you failed to realise that there is no underneath the earth, the gravitational pull keeps people in check. if you consider the earth in a wider space and look at its existance in universe you will realise that there is no top or bottom of the earth. All of the earth is top, all is on the bottom, if yu stand on iceland you will think you are on top of the earth, and antartic is at the bottom, but the one standing at antartic will think he is on top while iceland is bottom of the earth, I hope you understand this simple explanation. In another way, if you look in outer space, there is no planet, no fully formed star which is either squar, or trinangle, moon is round, sun is round all of them are round, so its natural that to think that our earth is round too. I hope you are not offended, I just wanted to point out that the reason people convert to Islam is that they dont have to abandoned the well accepted and scietifically proven facts has false, just because the Bible or Quran says contrary to what has been proven fact.

Another strenth of Islam is that it has precise and rationally acceptable dogma, much like Judaism, there is one God, His Messenger, Quran, Angles, Hell, and finally Heaven, no doctrine which tells you that your father commited crime for which you will recieve punishment, no doctrine says that someone else must pay the price for you wrong doings, only doctrine is what ever you do, you will be punished or rewareded for it. If you do good, you will get reward, if you do bad you will receive punishment. YOu can sin many times has you like, forexample you dont fast, or dont pray the prescribed prayers, you are sinful, for which you will receive punishment by Allah, because that our contract with Allah when we become Muslims that we will abide by the Quranic Laws and ritual practices, if you break them you are sinner of Allah, he will punish you for your breach of the contract, you can repent, and even make-up the prayers that you have missed until you die, any time before you die you can complete your prayers that yo have misssed all your life, if you repent on time Allah will forgive you, and even if you commit the same sin again you will be forgiven, doesnt matter how many times you sin, what matters is that you seek forgiveness from Allah, and He will forgive you.

There are other sins forexample stealing taking a life, being rude to parents, being cruel to animals, and so on, until these are forgiven by the people them selves. If you have stolen a ring, from someone, you have three options either give the ring back and ask for forgiveness from the owner of the ring, and then ask Allah for forgiveness, if the owner forgives you Allah will forgive you too, but the owner has to forgive you first. Secondly give the ring back and the owner doest forgive you, in that case you either will go to a judge who will prescribe a punishment for you act, could be either flogging or hand cut off (if you have no witness, your hands will not be cut off, only flogging), but after receiving this punishment you will not be punished further, neither by people nor by Allah. The third choice is keep the ring and then you will be punished on the day of judgement for your stealing.

Further strenth of Islam is in moral code of conduct, has muslims we beleive that the best of way of living is like Muhammed (pbuh), his moral conduct the Muslims fallow, he had beard, he wore a turban, he washed him self five times a day minimum, he used Muswak (Siwak) to clean his teeth (a primitive tooth brush, a herb which is good for oral health) he used perfume, every act which he did, Muslims aspire to be like him, in every act of his life, we imitate the way he slept, he made his bed, the way he ate, and even what he ate, in short every action of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was the best of example, we imitate even the way he spoke, the way he smiled, absolutely everything. This is one of the reason why Muslims beleive that every Prophet was without fault. Has the bible states that various Prophets have commited the blackest of sins, lets suppose this assumption is true. Solomon is said to have had sex with some soilders wife, in oder to get this chance he sent the husband of the woman to fighting where he died (or was killed on the oders of Solomon,what ever the truth ...). We Muslims beleive that Prophets were above such acts for the reason, that if one part of his life is dark, and sinful, then there is no guarantee that the message he is preaching is genuine, in one instance he behaves like a satan having sex with someones wife, in an other expounding the message of God assuring others that I am a prophet, such character makes a person unreliable. And if such character is accepted has a prophet then anyone and everyone can claim to be a prophet, can you imagen Hitler claiming to be a prophet, and then justifying his actions by saying that Old testaments says the prophets also can be evil, and sinner, on what ground can you say that Hitler is an impostor, a devil incarnate! Surely not on the basis of objectivity and unbais study, only reason you can deny his claim to prophethood is because you dont want to beleive it. Or forget Hitler he was too evil to be a prophet, what about someone more pious Pope, you wont even accept him with all his mistakes and shortcommings still pope cant be a prophet.

Has the strenth of Islam lays with in the character of the Prophet, if he was true prophet he would not do evil, infact his behaviour will be far superior to others. From his birth his behaviour will be perfect, you cant be born a evil person and then spend 70 years or your life pretending to be a saint, you will make mistakes in your childhood, people will know your character those who grow u with you will know your character, if the character is perfect and you grow up and claim to be a prophet, you have some crediability, because of your perfect moral behaviour, people will point out your kindness, your lovingness, your tolerance, your charity, your prayers, and then say yes this makes sense he could be a prophet, and if he is a genuine prophet he will further prove his claim with miracles and teachings. But if he was a rapist, killer, cruel, absusive, soon has he makes the claim to prophethood he will be labeled a liar.

Christians also fallow the footsteps of Jesus, but based on very selective issues, forexample carying the cross on Easter, breaking the bread and wine, and saying lords prayer on while eating. This is because there is no perservation of actions of Jesus, no one had perserved the deeds, actions, behaviour, childhood, sleeping manner, eating manners, etc; but on contrary early Muslims realised the dangers of loosing the tradition of Islam, had perserved every action of Muhammed (pbuh). Even the false statements that where attributed to Muhammed (pbuh) where perserved for the sake of critical analysis, and to make sure that only the genuine actions and genuine statements become the part of Islam, complex method of critical analysis where devised, has early has the first centurary of Islam. Even the names of the people who told these statements to others where recorded, every narator (or hadith transmitter) had a bioghraphy written about him, recording his behaviour, his character, his education, his travels, birth, and death, about his teachers, everything was perserved, and by analsyisng all this, he was given a category, Trust worthy, or Liar etc;

Just to make sure that Quran keeps in touch with the actions and deeds of Muhammed (pbuh). One other weakness in the Christianity is that Jesus himself never had seen any of the Gosples nor had any plan to write his Gosple down, has I see it, his message of a GoodNews, just a verbal teaching not recorded teaching in the format of a book or scroll. If there was such a book or scroll then it would have been grately different from the present gosples. While the modern New Testament was written has a historical record, it was no way intended to represent the Gosple of Jesus, this we can gather from the Gosple of Luke who in the beginning states his motives for writting the gosple according Luke. That other people have written Gosples but because he has the knowledge from the early age/or has a systematic knowlege of bible, he is more qualified to write on better then the previous ones so the readers can for certainity know the truth of matters. He is writing his Gosple of clarify the confusing issues, according to him what ever is not in his most exilent theophilouses its wrong.

continued ...

[ali420]

On other hand there are many insertions in the Bible and omitions in the bible which resently research has proven that where actually where not part of the bible, but later where interpolated, such a verse is on the Trinity ... For there are three that bear record in heaven ... this entire verse is not found in the any of the bible earlier then 10th century, which led the Christian scholars to beleive that it was a forgery.

On contary Quran was recited by Muhammed (pbuh) to his fallowers, who memorised each verse word by word (Quran was revealed during the period of 24 years), the angel Gabriel came and recited the Quran three times at three different situations, in the oder it is now in. It is also worth noting that Quran was memorised by the fallowers of Muhammed they didnt write it down until some time later. One of the common argument used by the answering islam is that there are manuscript errors in the Quran, just assuming that there are accurate in this assumption. It still does not matter, because the Muslims never actually relied on the written text, even though copies where made has a caution, they rarely where used in reciting the Quran, most of the people learnt Quran by people who had memorised Quran who recited it to there students from memory. Please note that those people spoke Arabic has there language so it was not difficult for them to learn it, also worth mentioning is the fact that its a poetical book, which makes it even easier to learn. Lastly Quran itself is a very easy book to remember in its original Arabic, one person can make a mistake but if there are two people sitting togather and one makes a mistake while reading the Quran the other Memoriser will correct him instantly. This is best seen in in the month of Ramdan when in prayer the whole Quran is recited, and when a Reciter makes a mistakes people from all parts of mosque shout the correct reading, you will have to be in mosque to see this in action, in the same manner there where people who had memorised the Quran and where fully able to correct mistakes in the written Quran. And nor forgetting the asumption that answering-Islam yet has to provide evidence for their claims that Quranic manuscripts have errors in it. Another argument by answering-Islam is that Quran has seven different versions, this is quite misleading when a person is not aware of the historical facts. Quran is one, but it has seven different recitation versions, or seven different ways of reciting a single verse, the word stupid, you can say shtupid, or Salam or Shalom, differnt way of reading or pronouncing the words does not mean that meaning has changed, meaning remains the same, only the acent changes.

Various other element have combined to consipire against the Bible, or at large against Christianity which led its demise from early 19th century to this day. The very same reasons which have caused the demist of Christians have infact brought Islam out of mystery. Those reasons being, science, historical research, in connection with Bible and Quran, the later was confirmed to be stable on both grounds while the previous was rejected on both fields. I can write alot more regarding this, but I think this will suffice.

i am also curious if you have heard of a book called
*unvieling islam*? i am not sure who the authors are, but
i know that they are brothers who are muslims turned christian.
anyway, a friend of mine read it and really liked it.
peace for now

I have not personally read it my self, but I can assure you that this book has nothing which I have not already heard or written about. At best this book will have things like, I saw my mother beating my dog and my dad you use to pray but lie all day, i use to go to mosque but we never where happy there because the teacher use to beat us up, my cat died and i burried it, and other person came and he dug it out and roasted it on fire, or while i was there people pretended to be saints but always where looking for ways to harm other people, but when i saw christians they where smartly dressed, and lively people, christians often gave us food, and came to our house and treat us nicely, they would invite us to there house and give us gifts, when i realised the christian countries are rich, while muslim poor miserable people, then i understood that God really was with the Christians, so i decided to leave my family and became a christian.

I am not saying this is what actually the book says, but these type of things will be mentioned. Rather then mentioning the teaching of Islam and what Islam says, they will be talking about the behavior of Muslims. Its like saying Jews where evil people because they killed Jesus, therefore Judaism is false, and I am going to become a Muslim. And I can assure you that what much of the books written by converts are about. I have read a few of them so i know what category they go in, and I have already narated the type of reasons why these people abandoned Islam for Chrisitanity.

And I can gaurantee you that if you sit with a muslim convert to christianity and ask them what doest Islam say about Trinity, and what are the reasons why Quran rejects Trinity, they will have no clue about it. Thats not there fault they are tuaght in Arabic so they dont understand it even thou they now the Quran inside out.

I will be waiting for your feedback, I have written far too much on this. I just hope you read it all. YOu can also read all the articles writen in here: read your link and you make some good points[b]

Thanks, I hope this has helped you to understand Islam better. If have anyother questions regarding Islam, you are more then welcome to ask me, I will do my best to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I would recomend that you join the msn community Islam&Christianity, because it doesnt have any activity so we can have a undisturbed disscussion. Oh yeah I am the manager of it, so you can say anything you like without the fear that you will be banned.

[b]im sorry if my question had that tone of accusation.
i honestly did not mean it that way.

Appologies accepted. I have been disscusing Islam with Christians for years now, and during that period I have met all kind of individuals, rude, abbusive, polite, genuine enquirers, confused individuals, due to this I have developed quite a aggressive attitude toward those who question Islam for what so every. You can say I am a little paranoid, always aggressive to others because i have encountered so many people who abuse Islam, and my Prophet just for fun, due to this reason I write in a aggressive manner, because i am angry at them so I want them to also feel the pain that I am feeling because of there insults. For this reason I rarely write in a calm or collective manner.

"i am truly fascinated by islam, is it true that it is now
growing faster than christianity? if so, what do you think
is the cause?"

It is absolutely true that Islam is spreading alot faster then Christianity, especially among the educated class of Europe and America. If you consider the conversion rate to islam it is about five thousand, thats including Europe, and American conversions. Majority of those converts are woman (Read here the reasons why woman convert to Islam: http://groups.msn.com/IslamChristianty/debateboard.msnw ), and majority of those converts belong to the Christian back ground. In comparision Islam is not loosing any converts to Christianity in large numbers, those who have converted to Christianity are uneducated individuals who have no knowledge of Islam, but no excuses will hide the fact that Muslims do convert to other religions too. I have yet to hear or read in any book or historical record which shows that a Muslim Scholar abandoned Islam for Christianity, except one report that some shia-(Muslim) scholar converted to Christianity back in 18 century, which again counts for nothing considering that he belonged to the Druze sect of Shias who have more common with Christians then Islam, so he left home for another home, in simple words he left Shia-Christianity to join Christian-Christianity.

And I had a friend who was a JW from birth, he went to Nigeria for some months for preaching with his Kingdom Hall, he came back and said that we converted alot of pagan Africans to Christianity, but in 2 years time we did not manage to convert a single Muslim to Christianity, he further said that, in Algeria the converting a Muslim to Christianity is like receiving the highest honours in bollywood arena. He admitted that converting a Muslim to Christianity is same has bring the stars from heaven. The simple fact is that Muslims do not convert, for some reason perhaps its in our genes or something.

There is another arena in which Islam is growing faster, thats birth rate, often Muslims will quote you statistics that Islam has grown 253% in past som many years, in camprision christianity has not even have half of such rate. They fail to realise that higher birth rate does not mean that Islam is growing faster, this only indicates that Muslims have high birth rate, each house hold atleast has five children in middleEast, and Asian countries. The rapid increase in Muslim population is not due to Christians or Bhudhist, Hindu's converting to Islam, but due to the fact that Muslims have large families.

In Europe, America often people say that Islam is growing very fast, to this you will have to keep two things in mind, how many are actual converts to Islam, and how many are migrants to these continets. The reality is that conversion to Islam compared to other religions is very very high, but when you put it into the perspective of two continents, the five thousand converts is like looking for needle in the moutain of hay stock.

Now to the main point of your question, what are the reasons why Islam appeals to other people, in short because Islam has the solutions to almost all of the problems faced by Western World.

continued ...

[ali420]

For the Christians it solves all the problems which a human mind cannot accept, trinity, the doctrine of original sin, death of Jesus for attonement mankind, Jesus being Son-of-God, regarding the discrepencies in the Bible regarding science. Like you mentioned in one of your message that earth is flat and square shape, despite knowing that there is nothing which proves your theory accurate, you insist that because the Bible says, it must be true. And one of the reasons you gave for your beleife is that people in the bottom of the earth will have the blood go into there eyes or brain (something like that), but you failed to realise that there is no underneath the earth, the gravitational pull keeps people in check. if you consider the earth in a wider space and look at its existance in universe you will realise that there is no top or bottom of the earth. All of the earth is top, all is on the bottom, if yu stand on iceland you will think you are on top of the earth, and antartic is at the bottom, but the one standing at antartic will think he is on top while iceland is bottom of the earth, I hope you understand this simple explanation. In another way, if you look in outer space, there is no planet, no fully formed star which is either squar, or trinangle, moon is round, sun is round all of them are round, so its natural that to think that our earth is round too. I hope you are not offended, I just wanted to point out that the reason people convert to Islam is that they dont have to abandoned the well accepted and scietifically proven facts has false, just because the Bible or Quran says contrary to what has been proven fact.

Another strenth of Islam is that it has precise and rationally acceptable dogma, much like Judaism, there is one God, His Messenger, Quran, Angles, Hell, and finally Heaven, no doctrine which tells you that your father commited crime for which you will recieve punishment, no doctrine says that someone else must pay the price for you wrong doings, only doctrine is what ever you do, you will be punished or rewareded for it. If you do good, you will get reward, if you do bad you will receive punishment. YOu can sin many times has you like, forexample you dont fast, or dont pray the prescribed prayers, you are sinful, for which you will receive punishment by Allah, because that our contract with Allah when we become Muslims that we will abide by the Quranic Laws and ritual practices, if you break them you are sinner of Allah, he will punish you for your breach of the contract, you can repent, and even make-up the prayers that you have missed until you die, any time before you die you can complete your prayers that yo have misssed all your life, if you repent on time Allah will forgive you, and even if you commit the same sin again you will be forgiven, doesnt matter how many times you sin, what matters is that you seek forgiveness from Allah, and He will forgive you.

There are other sins forexample stealing taking a life, being rude to parents, being cruel to animals, and so on, until these are forgiven by the people them selves. If you have stolen a ring, from someone, you have three options either give the ring back and ask for forgiveness from the owner of the ring, and then ask Allah for forgiveness, if the owner forgives you Allah will forgive you too, but the owner has to forgive you first. Secondly give the ring back and the owner doest forgive you, in that case you either will go to a judge who will prescribe a punishment for you act, could be either flogging or hand cut off (if you have no witness, your hands will not be cut off, only flogging), but after receiving this punishment you will not be punished further, neither by people nor by Allah. The third choice is keep the ring and then you will be punished on the day of judgement for your stealing.

Further strenth of Islam is in moral code of conduct, has muslims we beleive that the best of way of living is like Muhammed (pbuh), his moral conduct the Muslims fallow, he had beard, he wore a turban, he washed him self five times a day minimum, he used Muswak (Siwak) to clean his teeth (a primitive tooth brush, a herb which is good for oral health) he used perfume, every act which he did, Muslims aspire to be like him, in every act of his life, we imitate the way he slept, he made his bed, the way he ate, and even what he ate, in short every action of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was the best of example, we imitate even the way he spoke, the way he smiled, absolutely everything. This is one of the reason why Muslims beleive that every Prophet was without fault. Has the bible states that various Prophets have commited the blackest of sins, lets suppose this assumption is true. Solomon is said to have had sex with some soilders wife, in oder to get this chance he sent the husband of the woman to fighting where he died (or was killed on the oders of Solomon,what ever the truth ...). We Muslims beleive that Prophets were above such acts for the reason, that if one part of his life is dark, and sinful, then there is no guarantee that the message he is preaching is genuine, in one instance he behaves like a satan having sex with someones wife, in an other expounding the message of God assuring others that I am a prophet, such character makes a person unreliable. And if such character is accepted has a prophet then anyone and everyone can claim to be a prophet, can you imagen Hitler claiming to be a prophet, and then justifying his actions by saying that Old testaments says the prophets also can be evil, and sinner, on what ground can you say that Hitler is an impostor, a devil incarnate! Surely not on the basis of objectivity and unbais study, only reason you can deny his claim to prophethood is because you dont want to beleive it. Or forget Hitler he was too evil to be a prophet, what about someone more pious Pope, you wont even accept him with all his mistakes and shortcommings still pope cant be a prophet.

Has the strenth of Islam lays with in the character of the Prophet, if he was true prophet he would not do evil, infact his behaviour will be far superior to others. From his birth his behaviour will be perfect, you cant be born a evil person and then spend 70 years or your life pretending to be a saint, you will make mistakes in your childhood, people will know your character those who grow u with you will know your character, if the character is perfect and you grow up and claim to be a prophet, you have some crediability, because of your perfect moral behaviour, people will point out your kindness, your lovingness, your tolerance, your charity, your prayers, and then say yes this makes sense he could be a prophet, and if he is a genuine prophet he will further prove his claim with miracles and teachings. But if he was a rapist, killer, cruel, absusive, soon has he makes the claim to prophethood he will be labeled a liar.

Christians also fallow the footsteps of Jesus, but based on very selective issues, forexample carying the cross on Easter, breaking the bread and wine, and saying lords prayer on while eating. This is because there is no perservation of actions of Jesus, no one had perserved the deeds, actions, behaviour, childhood, sleeping manner, eating manners, etc; but on contrary early Muslims realised the dangers of loosing the tradition of Islam, had perserved every action of Muhammed (pbuh). Even the false statements that where attributed to Muhammed (pbuh) where perserved for the sake of critical analysis, and to make sure that only the genuine actions and genuine statements become the part of Islam, complex method of critical analysis where devised, has early has the first centurary of Islam. Even the names of the people who told these statements to others where recorded, every narator (or hadith transmitter) had a bioghraphy written about him, recording his behaviour, his character, his education, his travels, birth, and death, about his teachers, everything was perserved, and by analsyisng all this, he was given a category, Trust worthy, or Liar etc;

Just to make sure that Quran keeps in touch with the actions and deeds of Muhammed (pbuh). One other weakness in the Christianity is that Jesus himself never had seen any of the Gosples nor had any plan to write his Gosple down, has I see it, his message of a GoodNews, just a verbal teaching not recorded teaching in the format of a book or scroll. If there was such a book or scroll then it would have been grately different from the present gosples. While the modern New Testament was written has a historical record, it was no way intended to represent the Gosple of Jesus, this we can gather from the Gosple of Luke who in the beginning states his motives for writting the gosple according Luke. That other people have written Gosples but because he has the knowledge from the early age/or has a systematic knowlege of bible, he is more qualified to write on better then the previous ones so the readers can for certainity know the truth of matters. He is writing his Gosple of clarify the confusing issues, according to him what ever is not in his most exilent theophilouses its wrong.

On other hand there are many insertions in the Bible and omitions in the bible which resently research has proven that where actually where not part of the bible, but later where interpolated, such a verse is on the Trinity ... For there are three that bear record in heaven ... this entire verse is not found in the any of the bible earlier then 10th century, which led the Christian scholars to beleive that it was a forgery.

On contary Quran was recited by Muhammed (pbuh) to his fallowers, who memorised each verse word by word (Quran was revealed during the period of 24 years), the angel Gabriel came and recited the Quran three times at three different situations, in the oder it is now in. It is also worth noting that Quran was memorised by the fallowers of Muhammed they didnt write it down until some time later. One of the common argument used by the answering islam is that there are manuscript errors in the Quran, just assuming that there are accurate in this assumption. It still does not matter, because the Muslims never actually relied on the written text, even though copies where made has a caution, they rarely where used in reciting the Quran, most of the people learnt Quran by people who had memorised Quran who recited it to there students from memory. Please note that those people spoke Arabic has there language so it was not difficult for them to learn it, also worth mentioning is the fact that its a poetical book, which makes it even easier to learn. Lastly Quran itself is a very easy book to remember in its original Arabic, one person can make a mistake but if there are two people sitting togather and one makes a mistake while reading the Quran the other Memoriser will correct him instantly. This is best seen in in the month of Ramdan when in prayer the whole Quran is recited, and when a Reciter makes a mistakes people from all parts of mosque shout the correct reading, you will have to be in mosque to see this in action, in the same manner there where people who had memorised the Quran and where fully able to correct mistakes in the written Quran. And nor forgetting the asumption that answering-Islam yet has to provide evidence for their claims that Quranic manuscripts have errors in it. Another argument by answering-Islam is that Quran has seven different versions, this is quite misleading when a person is not aware of the historical facts. Quran is one, but it has seven different recitation versions, or seven different ways of reciting a single verse, the word stupid, you can say shtupid, or Salam or Shalom, differnt way of reading or pronouncing the words does not mean that meaning has changed, meaning remains the same, only the acent changes.

Various other element have combined to consipire against the Bible, or at large against Christianity which led its demise from early 19th century to this day. The very same reasons which have caused the demist of Christians have infact brought Islam out of mystery. Those reasons being, science, historical research, in connection with Bible and Quran, the later was confirmed to be stable on both grounds while the previous was rejected on both fields. I can write alot more regarding this, but I think this will suffice.

i am also curious if you have heard of a book called
*unvieling islam*? i am not sure who the authors are, but
i know that they are brothers who are muslims turned christian.
anyway, a friend of mine read it and really liked it.
peace for now

I have not personally read it my self, but I can assure you that this book has nothing which I have not already heard or written about. At best this book will have things like, I saw my mother beating my dog and my dad you use to pray but lie all day, i use to go to mosque but we never where happy there because the teacher use to beat us up, my cat died and i burried it, and other person came and he dug it out and roasted it on fire, or while i was there people pretended to be saints but always where looking for ways to harm other people, but when i saw christians they where smartly dressed, and lively people, christians often gave us food, and came to our house and treat us nicely, they would invite us to there house and give us gifts, when i realised the christian countries are rich, while muslim poor miserable people, then i understood that God really was with the Christians, so i decided to leave my family and became a christian.

I am not saying this is what actually the book says, but these type of things will be mentioned. Rather then mentioning the teaching of Islam and what Islam says, they will be talking about the behavior of Muslims. Its like saying Jews where evil people because they killed Jesus, therefore Judaism is false, and I am going to become a Muslim. And I can assure you that what much of the books written by converts are about. I have read a few of them so i know what category they go in, and I have already narated the type of reasons why these people abandoned Islam for Chrisitanity.

And I can gaurantee you that if you sit with a muslim convert to christianity and ask them what doest Islam say about Trinity, and what are the reasons why Quran rejects Trinity, they will have no clue about it. Thats not there fault they are tuaght in Arabic so they dont understand it even thou they now the Quran inside out.

I will be waiting for your feedback, I have written far too much on this. I just hope you read it all. YOu can also read the articles I have written on here: http://groups.msn.com/IslamChristianty/debateboard.msnw

Ali
Was-salam
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[Aardvark]

hey ali,

first off i would like to say i was kidding about the flat earth thing. i honestly believe the earth is round. there is an actual *flat-earth society* that i read about where the members take extreme literal interpretations of the bible
to prove the earth is flat.
i am rather new to learning about other religions so i feel as of now
i am not prepared to respond to some of the statements you made in your
last post. but i will respond about the book.
they will be talking about the behavior of Muslimsi have not read it so i cant be absolutely sure, but my friend read
some of it to me and i believe these brothers were quite knowledgable
about islamic scripture. they also seemed to take more of an intellectual approach to leaving rather than because of abusive parents, etc.
but i will not comment anymore on that because i have not read it. but i am going to, and i will encourage you to do the same and possibly give some insights.
im sure you've had lots of bad experiences with christians, but im sure
most of its due to a lack of education about islam.
i would like to recommend another author, ravi zacharias, because he has
been very influential to me. he is actually a former hindu who grew up in india.
he wrote a popular book called *jesus among other gods*
i would be curious to hear your opinion on his views towards islam.
are there any authors you would recommend?
peace

[ali420]

"First off i would like to say i was kidding about the flat earth thing. i honestly believe the earth is round. there is an actual *flat-earth society* that i read about where the members take extreme literal interpretations of the bible to prove the earth is flat."

Ok, sorry, I am not good with understanding jokes.

i am rather new to learning about other religions so i feel as of now
i am not prepared to respond to some of the statements you made in your
last post. but i will respond about the book.

When ever you feel that you have accquired the knowledge concerning Islam, you are welcome to disscuss it with me. But I would addvice you that what ever you wish to learn about Islam you should read directly material written by Muslims, and if you then wish you can read any appologetic material against Islam. The reason is quite simple when you wish to learn about biology, you go to a biologist, or read a book written by a biologist, when you wish to learn about hockey, your learn from a hocky professional. If you are sincere in researching something you will read the material written by the professionals which belong to this field, and when you want to learn about Islam, people read the works of Christian Appologetical organisations, or works written by orientalists. Obviously the Christians would not be complementing Islam over its difference with Christianity, much emphasis will be laid in attempting to prove that Islam is wrong. On other hand Orientalists suppose to have a neutral position, but still there will be some cultural bias, some personel opinions, or preconceived beleives which will creep into the books, which will unfortunately will also effect the understanding of the readers. Has I say the best source for studying Islam is books written by Islamic scholars. And the best way to check who is telling the truth is checking the refferences in the context. The best way to learn is to do a indepandant study your self.

I personally have used the above method in study of every sect of Christianity, and every sect of Islam, and to judge on the truth of both I have used the Bible and Quran. I was born Muslim, but I never went to Mosque in Pakistan because the teacher use to beat kids who didnt know do there home work, and I was with the ones who didnt do home work. I had little interest in Islam, if at all. Much of what I knew was either learnt because of fear that I will get beat up, or else I wont be allowed to watch TV, but not out of choice. Much of what i had written about the book mentioning behaviour of Muslims has an excuse for leaving Islam was my personel experience, but I had one good quality, that was to question everything. I questioned everything about Islam, Christianity, even studied in depth atheism, but I never said this is it, or this one is the truth until I understood each and every beleife, from its own sources, from its opponents, and then the responses given to the opanents, and finally decided that Islam was the one for me. But one golden rule I had was never trust anyone in the matters of religion, people always lie to impress others, to make them selves look smart, to make there beleives look good. Always check the sources being quoted.

And with regards to the point that those two brothers where knowledgeable about Islam before they became Christians, I am not going to contest that either, I just might be wrong. But even suppose that they where knowledgable, does it mean that Christianity is truth, or Islam is false, ofcourse not if you consider the conversion of the Christians who where fomer priest, missionaries, bishops, deacons, doctrine of Divinities, and even Orientalist scholars, to Islam will alone suffice to prove the truth of Islam, but this does not prove Islam is true, it only means that those people had alot of common with Islamic teachings so they became Muslims.

I do read alot of books written by Christians, order to work out the thinking parterns of Christians, and what makes Christians to love the death of Jesus, to adore this death and crucifiction. And also other matters of Bible.

Take care
Ali

[kofh2u]

[b]

Thanks, I hope this has helped you to understand Islam better. If have anyother questions regarding Islam, you are more then welcome to ask me, I will do my best to answer your questions to the best of my ability.


.

Hello,

I was tempted to ask this question many times to someone with credentials as clearly established as your own. Your encouragement to ask brings me to post this.

Does Islam specifically define charity, one of its five pillars, as did Jesus?

You will remember that Jesus denegrated "charity" to one's neighbor Christian as an act of love to thise who already love you. He specifically said, "Love tgy enemy."


This seems such a defining issue which separates the two religious philosophies.

It also underlines the popular assumption that Muslim proseltyzing is rendered by the sword, rather undemocratically, as opposed to a Christian salesmanship directed at true change of heart as opposed to fear driven acquiescence.

What say you?

[Jin-Roh]

I do read alot of books written by Christians, order to work out the thinking parterns of Christians, and what makes Christians to love the death of Jesus, to adore this death and crucifiction. And also other matters of Bible.

Take care
Ali

Ali, this is a bit off-topic, but if you've read so many books by Christians, why do examine the death and crucifiction but seem to be ignoring the resurrection? I'm not sure how far you'd need to read in order to understand that "Why do Christians love the death of Jesus" isn't even the right question.

[ali420]

"Does Islam specifically define charity, one of its five pillars, as did Jesus?"

Yes Charity is one of the Fundamentals of the Quran, just has Christianity where has the fundamental teaching is Death, Resuraction of Jesus, Islam has Charity has one of the Fundametal teachings. The word Arkan, or Pillar is give meaning that on which a building stands, the foundational stones on which the building stands, in this case Charity, Fasting, Hajj, Prayer, Confession of Islamic Creed, are the five pillars on which the rest of Islam stands. With out first establishing these five pillars, your Islam will not be strong, it will be weak, just like a building with weak foundations, will result a weak building in structure in the same way a persons Islamic beleife will also be weak.

I dont recall any verse of the Bible in NT where Jesus sanctions Charity has part of beleif, but it is possible that I am not aware of it. Any how we Muslims do beleive that Jesus gave charity regardless of what Bible says. We have Hadith narated by Muhammed (pbuh) which tell about the character of Jesus, they show his behaviour, and attitude toward others, but that strickly a Islamic beleife not depandent upon any of the passages of the NT. There is a Hadith that Jesus (PBUH) had three things has his possesions, a comb, with which he use to comb his hair, when he saw someone using his fingers for combing his hair he gave it away in Charity, he saw a poor person drinking water with his hands, he also gave his bowl to the poor in charity, and the third one I dont remember what it was. There are many more sayings regarding Jesus (pbuh) in Islamic Hadiths which deal with his life style.

Charity in Islam could be anything not nessicerily money. Infact Islam has charity for every class of the people, rich, poor, father, mother. Charity of the rich is money, there is no limit to what you can give in charity, but it is generally accepted that in modern times 2.5% of your yearly earnings will go to charity, but if you wish to give 50% in charity thats your choice, but minimum is 2.5%. There is a hadith when a poor man came to Muhammed and said, the Quran says that i must give charity, but i have nothing to give to he was asked about few genral things, like do you have a bowl or something, he said no. So Muhammed (pbuh) then your charity is your smile. Just smile at someone has a gesture of Charity. In another incident a man came and asked Muhammed (pbuh) what was Charity, he was told that giving some of your earnings for the poor, or feeding hungry people, he said but there is no one poorer then me in this town, so Muhammed (pbuh) said ok, go and then feed your family has an act of charity.

Also Islam has set rules, instructing when a person becomes liable to give Charity in money form.

It has been hard to understand some part of your message, so i might not have understood your intent in writting the message, but has far i can gather you are stating that Jesus tought that love your neibhours and love your enemies also. But Islam states that figting is legal, and Islam was spread at the point of sword. This charge that Muhammed (pbuh) used sword, or Muslims used sword to establish the religion of Islam, is absolutely non-sense. I dont meant to insult you, but OT prophets used war, they butchered thousands beacuse they where commanded by Yahweh or Ellohim, does that mean the prophets are false, and more damningly Yahweh-Ellohim is false, and Bible altogather is false.

Yes, love they enemy, but dont be a sissy. Jesus (p ), despite all his love and peace preaching, went to the temple and used extreme violence to drive away the money changers and traders. He turned the tables around, whipped them, beat them, pushed them, did every violent act to get rid of them. Did he not love them? Did he forget his teachings? Or was it that his teachings did not apply to him but only for others? Ofcourse Jesus was not a hate monger nor violent man, but at times there is need for such methods. That doesnt mean he didnt love his enemies. Not forgetting that Jesus instructed his deciples to buy swords, and said buy them even if you have to sell them your garments, it shows how urgently the swords where needed, obviously he had in his mind Jihad, he wanted to fight the holy War jewish style. Some argue that his these swords are metaphorical, some say they where just brought for show off, some say just to for protection from animals. I have explained the first two in my some other message, which you can read some where on this board. The last one is new and i have not delt with it, before, I am pretty much sure that these swords where need for some more serious purpose, then just protection from animals. A wolf, lion, would not dare to come to a town they ignore the humans like hell. And surely the dogs of the town where not so dangerous that 12 people could not take care of them, forcing them to buy swords. And you might argue that they might have needed the swords when they go out of towns and go to other cities and travel around, that will be a good response, but not when considering that Jesus only instructed his deciples a day before he was going to get arrested and only place he was going to travel was to the Temple, and that when he got arrested, and one of his deciples cut of the ear of the Roman soilder. And when you consider the details that he said buy them even if you have to sell your clothes, surely he must have something else in his mind, otherwise what was the cause of such strict command to his deciples. Has I stated above he intended a Jewish Jihad, but was captured before the storm could get more strenth. Lets even suppose I am absolutely wrong and but instead the truth is that at that time people brougt swords to peal patatos. You still cant explain another problem that on the second comming of Jesus he will use swords, guns grenades, to establish his kingdom, just like previous prophets established there kingdoms with sword, Solomon, David etc; so will Jesus use the same sword, no voodoo magic will convert people to the beleife of Jesus. everything has to be according to a plan. Can you deny that on the second comming has the bible teaches that Jesus will use violence to establish his kindom.

The charge that Islam teaches war, while Jesus teaches peace, love, is false, and those who use this method are ignorant of the history, and ignorant of Bible itself. Islam teaches that dont turn your other cheek when someone is raping, take his head off. What would a Christian do, turn the woman on otherside for the rapist, and if you dont, you take the rapists head off, doesnt that mean you dont love him, you cant love paedophiles and show that you care about such sick people. Love is a emotion for humans not beasts, you can love innocent child, your pretty wife, your parents, and general public, but not the sick peadophiles, rapists. Love is a holy emotion, love is for holy people not satans. This is what Jesus was saying, but ignorance of bible and ignorance Jesus's teaching has lead many to beleive that you love everyone. I say Jesus said love those people who are worthy of being loved, worthy of kindness, worthy of compassion, but to the wicked and tyrants show no respect, no love, no mercy. Here I am going to cite my evidence from the Bible itself, Jesus when he turned the Tables in the temple demonstrated that people who use religion has a base for making money, are not worthy of love and or kindness, he whipped them. He showed no respect to the Jews when they came to ask him for a miracle, he said you evil and adulterous generation, this is not how he spoke but he knew these people just want to be entertained, he knew these people are not genuine truth seekers, so he showed them no respact, he cursed them, and told them his sign would be of Jonnah. Islam teaches that Jesus didnt use such filthy language, Prophets are holy and above such character and foul language. But Bible says he did, its a clear demonstration that he was not telling them that he loved them, he condemed them with the strongest words. You will have to understand your own Bible before you can even attempt to brandish your finger at another faith.

Just has Bible states that Jesus used violence (urged his deciples and prepared his deciples for violence), Islam teaches violence, prepares Muslims for violence and instructs violence, but this violence is not unessecary, we dont see Jesus killing for fun, he used violence when it was needed. In the same way when persecution got to much, and the pagans wanted to put an end to Islam for eiternity, pagans marched on Madinah, (a safe city where Muslims fled from Makkah because they could not longer tolerate persecution,) with their army to elimnate Muhammed and his fallowers, and this time, Muslims where forced to deffend there lives in battle, even then in battle rules where prescribed not to kill soilders who surrender or are no longer threat to Muslims. Almost every war was fought in deffence, or has a pre-emptive strike. Muhammed fought 23 battles in his life time, and in that period only 1500 people had lost life in all the battles, and with the loss of minimum life Muhammed united all the Arab tribes finished the tribal rivale wars.

And not fogetting that Jesus on his second comming will not fire nuclear-doves, or laser guided-doves (lasser guided bombs), or cluster-doves (cluster bombs), he will use them.

Further the Quran explicitly states that who so ever has take a life, unjustly he has acted like he killed all mankind. Weather friend of foe, there life, there property is proptect by Islam, only time they become liable for killing is when they take a life, or the property is liable for confiscation when they either have harmed someone and the judge decides that compensation has to be given to the victims. Also remember Islam allows war, and killing in war, Islam allows taking of a life when a criminal has taken someone elses life, Eye for an eye.

And the charge that Islam was spread at the point of sword, has no evidence, you can only quote missionaries who are saying these things, if you read Orientalist Books, on rise of Islam, they will tell you that rise was not because of sword, but rise of Islam was based on its simple and very logical beleife system, and very powerfull moral system, and many other elements contributed to the Rise of Islam, which is continously rising faster then any other religious movement. I think it was George Bernard Shaw in one of his books stated about Muhammed (pbuh) that lies that have been heaped on this man are only disgrace to our selves.

The command that says love thy enemy, has been misudnerstood almost by all chritians, infact all christians, they dont realise that, only a enemy which is morally high, not bank-corrupt, can be loved. Can you imagen a man rapes your 10 your, what you reaction would be, would you love him to death, or beat him to death. What do you think Jesus would do in this situation if he had a wife hwo was raped by someone, would he love him? Would he show mercy? Would he stop the person from raping his wife? If he doesnt then the that means that he doesnt love his wife, and if he does that will mean he doenst love the rapist, becuase he is stopping his fellow from raping his wife, because the rapist likes it, and when he stops him he will hurt his feelings. What do you think Jesus would do in this situation? I leave that for you to decide.

I hope I have not offended you or anyone, what ever I have written is to make you realise that your thinking is wrong, your understanding of Bible is wrong. I have not intended to offend you, I know near the end I have used scenario's which are not pleasing, and will diffinately will cause hurt and offense, but I appologise in advance for this. The aim was to make you think, and just not read what others tell you and beleive. I know that you have been reading books written by Christians to suite your interest, but much you have read is far from reality of the Bible.

I didnt have the intention to criticise Bible, or Jesus, has I beleive Jesus is sinless, and above error, and far to God fearing to tolerate any non-sense of love your enemy when he is rapign your mother. You will be aware that its hard to avoid criticism, weather malicious or honest it simply cant be ignored, its sixth sense to me. Has i said above I trust no one, and expect no one to trust me, you have your brain if you use it you will learn, you can distinguish from the falsehood. YOu have the choice to beleive me or to disbeleive, I have made my case for my position from the Bible, if you disagree you must prove me wrong, or else, silence is best.

I hope this will help you to understand Islam better, I know there is too much myth out there, but I can only disple the few i encounter, so if you have another one, BRING IT ON! :blush:

what say you?"

I said too much, now what you say?:juggle:

Was-salam
Ali

[ali420]

"Ali, this is a bit off-topic, but if you've read so many books by Christians, why do examine the death and crucifiction but seem to be ignoring the resurrection? I'm not sure how far you'd need to read in order to understand that "Why do Christians love the death of Jesus" isn't even the right question."

Oh please spare me some typing. Just think for your self, that can there be a book about the death of Jesus, while ignoring his crucifiction, and can it be complete without mentioning his ressuraction. I just dropped one word for the sake of saving time. Can you imagine a Christian writting a book without mentioning ressuraction and not glorifying his death crucifiction, its almost impossible. I was in hurry and there is sometime that i have to sleep, I spend all night typing i dont even sleep at night, only during day, not its 5 in morning.

The reason i read them i i want to work out the thinking behind accepting TRinity which is irational, but how can a rational being accept them, thats what I want to wrk out, is it by supressing his intelligence and imposing his beleife on his intellect or is it by accepting some part that are appealing while just hanging to the other (which are irrational to human mind e.g trinity) doubtfull beleives for the sake of accepting the package, or ....

[jwkenne]

ali,

i read your link and you make some good points :teeth:
im sorry if my question had that tone of accusation.
i honestly did not mean it that way.
i am truly fascinated by islam, is it true that it is now
growing faster than christianity? if so, what do you think
is the cause?
i am also curious if you have heard of a book called
*unvieling islam*? i am not sure who the authors are, but
i know that they are brothers who are muslims turned christian.
anyway, a friend of mine read it and really liked it.
peace for now

I dont mean to be critical...sort of, but when people say "Islam is the fastest growing religion" and things of this nature, it is rather misleading. It is growing in Europe because of high immigration rates from muslim countries, not by conversion. How many Christian converts do you think you would find if you polled Saudi Arabia? What about Pakistan? Iran? I will give you a hint...you can be killed for it there.

[jwkenne]

[bIt has been hard to understand some part of your message, so i might not have understood your intent in writting the message, but has far i can gather you are stating that Jesus tought that love your neibhours and love your enemies also. But Islam states that figting is legal, and Islam was spread at the point of sword. This charge that Muhammed (pbuh) used sword, or Muslims used sword to establish the religion of Islam, is absolutely non-sense. I dont meant to insult you, but OT prophets used war, they butchered thousands beacuse they where commanded by Yahweh or Ellohim, does that mean the prophets are false, and more damningly Yahweh-Ellohim is false, and Bible altogather is false.



Ali

I appreciate your viewpoint here. It seems like a fairly common argument. Let me explain to you something so glaringly obvious, and yet you seem to overlook it. The Old Testament passages you speak of are an ancient account of wars and conquest by the Hebrew people, written down as history. Keep that word "history" in mind. They are not pretty accounts, and one can come to some very unfavorable conclusions about the nation of Israel and its God. I don't deny this. But it is still history. It is not God telling all of his followers for all time, to go and "kill every child and animal".
Mohhamed, on the other hand, is not an ancient writer telling the history of a nation. He is a "prophet" instructing his people (muslims) on how to act, how to spread his message, and such. He also clearly advocates violence...not in one historical battle, but in certain circumstances, to certain people. Do you deny that? There is a very clear difference in this, much as there is a difference in me telling the story of Timothy McVeigh, and, say, me telling you to go and blow up a building.
Also, you are coming close to outright lying in some of your statements about Jesus in this thread. When did Jesus advocate violence? You say he prepared his disciples for violence. Where? Where is there any instruction to spread Christianity by the sword? Surely you see the difference in Jesus knocking over a table in the temple, and Mohhamed instructing his followers to slay the infidel wherever you find them?

[ali420]

I don't deny this. But it is still history. It is not God telling all of his followers for all time, to go and "kill every child and animal".

Look man, go and read your bible very well. Christians tell him the passages which Yahweh-Ellohim says that kill every living thing, when you conquer the city, including the animals. Look even if Yahweh-Ellohim commanded this for sec leave alone for enternity or two years, still doesnt matter, where the killing took place it doesnt matter. what matter is the Yahweh said kill everyone, innocent guilty, man, woman, children, animals, all. It is irrelevent if the killing didnt happened, its irrelevent that it was only allowed for one period, its totally irrelevent, whats releivent is that command was given, and it shows how evil Yahweh was (infact Jesus was).

"Mohhamed, on the other hand, is not an ancient writer telling the history of a nation. He is a "prophet" instructing his people (muslims) on how to act, how to spread his message, and such. He also clearly advocates violence...not in one historical battle, but in certain circumstances, to certain people."

Let suppose you are right Muhammed used violence and even instructed killing, and this makes him evil, and therefore he is not prophet. Look I give you a challenge that show me one verse of the Quran, one Hadith says kill everyone indiscrimnantly weather they are male female, children or old, and animals. Muhammed couldnt give such a command leave alone a year, not for a joke, but your mercifull Yahweh-Jesus-Ellohim really ment this and had loads of innocent people killed, and then this YahwehJesusEllohim came to earth to preach peace, what a load of rubbish. YahwehJesusEllohim can be a devil but surely not God, because Muhammed had better moral value then your god YahwehJesusEllohim. This proves that Muhammed had superior values then your god so you should not fallow your SatanicEvilJewishRacist-Yahweh.

And dont you dare tell me that I am lieing about this, because I will make you regert it, and I am very able to do that.

And tell me those people whom he had used violence where they sitting home doing nothing sleeping. They where persecuting the Muslims and they fled to Madinah to escape persecution, and thats when the pagans gathered army and attacked Madinah, he was forced to deffend. Now dont tell me you brainless idiot that pen in mightier then sword, or preaching is mightier then sword, at the time the pagans attacked Madinah the sword was mightier, and if you dispute this meet me someday, and I will give you a pen and take the sword my self, and I will prove to you that sword is mightier then pen. It was no time for preaching it was life or death, and in deffence the sword was picked up, to deffend.

You give no evidence no refference which proves that Muhammed used violence wrongly. You ignore the key parts of the discussion, and accuse me of lieing, you have the cheek to do this.

I dont expect a intellectual discussion from you, because it seems that your body has divorced your brain, they are both existing seperately. Learn some basic rules of discussion like presenting evidence, and reffuting it with evidence. You are being a little kid who insists he is right, just crys on and insists he is right. I challenge you to prove me wrong on any verse of the Bible i have discussed so far, in any of my messages. And if your brain cells are not working take it to someone who has them in working oder. I hate stupid people, and I hate even more the ones without brain. Either get some sense or beat-it from here.

"Do you deny that? There is a very clear difference in this, much as there is a difference in me telling the story of Timothy McVeigh, and, say, me telling you to go and blow up a building."

Ofcourse its not, but let me quote you some passages of the OT where your Satanist Beloved Yahweh, is not telling a story, but is instructing the Israelites to kill:

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.
JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.
JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.
JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.
JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.
JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.
JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.
JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

I am going to wait for you to explain to me the above verses, in which according to your criteria, commanding fighting is evil and Muhammed cant be prophet. If we accept this criteria, you are saying that Prophet is too holy and can not take life, so God is the holliest, if he commands that a life can be taken that will mean God is false also, therefore it proves that YahwehJesus was not really god but s devil incarnate. Or alternatively, you can aggree that there are sometimes when its unavoidable to kill.

When did Jesus advocate violence? You say he prepared his disciples for violence. Where?"

Look man just before Jesus got arrested he took his deciples went to place positioned his deciples carefully, told them to watch out for Jesus, read the passage of matthew 26:26 onwards till the section ends, the Romans soilders came one of the deciple cut the ear of the soilder, Jesus realises that game is up he tells his deciples to put down there swords. Read the entire passage you will realise that he positioned his deciples carefully and told them to sit and and look out for him. Just before he went to the garden he told his decples in the bread and wine saga, what is going to happen, and his instructions to buy the swords was for one perpose, to get captured while figting, but while he was busy praying the Ramon soilders came and arrested him. Those swords he odered where not for pealing oninons or patato's those swords where used for cutting ear, and the reason he odered them was to cut heads off. His deciples where not so peacefull, and surely there teacher was not so peacfull either. YOu dont tell me that the deciples where stupid they didnt understood Jesus.

"Where is there any instruction to spread Christianity by the sword?"

Ofcourse not, Christianity was peacefull, they only killed each other for some 4 huderd years over whoes bible is from God. And ofcourse the Unitarian church had the majority fallowers, where converted to Trinitrainism without killing single of them, ofcourse the trinitarians where peacfull, they wiped out entire cities of unitarians with the help of constantine the Great, of course much heard about Gnostics they jumped in a spaceship and flew to Mars, and soon after these Nestorians and everyother sect that opposed Trinitarianism just vanished, they all became catholic without even being stared at.

Wild bores where less hostile to each other, but Catholics and more accurately the Trinitrain church when they became the official church declared by Constantine, he gave all of his army in the blood of Christ, and this Army killed everysingle non-trintarain, non-Catholic christian group, that ever existed. You idiot, have you ever read anything about the Christian History, my uncivilised dog is more civilised then your christian ancestors. This Christianity only used dove to convert people to their religion, here i recogmend some Orientalist books for you, Bart Erhman, Lost Christianities, and if you cant ford it I will send you the money, it has a detailed account of how Chrisitians systemetically oblibterated every sect of Christianity.

"Surely you see the difference in Jesus knocking over a table in the temple, and Mohhamed instructing his followers to slay the infidel wherever you find them?"

Ever heard of the word context, read the vese in the context it says those who fight you in battle and oppress you, kill them where ever you find them.

Why did Jesus turn the tables, because he was a fanatical terrorist, who coulnt tolerate people doing there business in the temple. Dont

[jwkenne]

Since you seem to be a very angry person, and unable to read, i will respond to you point by point.

I don't deny this. But it is still history. It is not God telling all of his followers for all time, to go and "kill every child and animal".

Look man, go and read your bible very well. Christians tell him the passages which Yahweh-Ellohim says that kill every living thing, when you conquer the city, including the animals. Look even if Yahweh-Ellohim commanded this for sec leave alone for enternity or two years, still doesnt matter, where the killing took place it doesnt matter. what matter is the Yahweh said kill everyone, innocent guilty, man, woman, children, animals, all.

Right...and do you care to respond to the point that there is a clear difference in this and Mohammed breaking into some hashish induced sweat in a cave, and then writing instructions to his followers, some of which advocate violence? What? There is no evidence that your "prophet" was a drug addict? Well, I thought that's what this thread was about...making false claims about the other's religion and then not backing them up.

It is irrelevent if the killing didnt happened, its irrelevent that it was only allowed for one period, its totally irrelevent, whats releivent is that command was given, and it shows how evil Yahweh was (infact Jesus was).

What? The Hebrews killing people in war 3000 years or so earlier shows that Jesus was evil? You'll have to a little better than that.



[b][b]"Mohhamed, on the other hand, is not an ancient writer telling the history of a nation. He is a "prophet" instructing his people (muslims) on how to act, how to spread his message, and such. He also clearly advocates violence...not in one historical battle, but in certain circumstances, to certain people."

Let suppose you are right Muhammed used violence and even instructed killing, and this makes him evil, and therefore he is not prophet. Look I give you a challenge that show me one verse of the Quran, one Hadith says kill everyone indiscrimnantly weather they are male female, children or old, and animals.

You've got to be kidding, right? What about when Mohhamed tells them to KILL anything? Is that good enough? You have yet to show me Jesus telling anyone to harm anyone, you hypocrite. Here are some, just the most obvious:

[17.16] And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

(This seems to be talking about the Israelites, and the same God of Abraham, so, using your logic, I guess we can now call Mohammed evil, too!!! Whipee! See how fun faulty logic can be?)

[21.11] And how many a town which was iniquitous did We demolish, and We raised up after it another people!

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

And the list goes on and on...




Muhammed couldnt give such a command leave alone a year, not for a joke, but your mercifull Yahweh-Jesus-Ellohim really ment this and had loads of innocent people killed, and then this YahwehJesusEllohim came to earth to preach peace, what a load of rubbish. YahwehJesusEllohim can be a devil but surely not God, because Muhammed had better moral value then your god YahwehJesusEllohim. This proves that Muhammed had superior values then your god so you should not fallow your SatanicEvilJewishRacist-Yahweh.

Right. Mohhammed was too busy crucifying people, cutting off hands, and killing the unbeliever where he lay. Or, at least he was telling his followers to do it. Sound familiar? I remember another muslim somewhere betwwen Pakistan and Afghanistan doing roughly the same thing...This proves that you are either a very selective reader, or you are a liar, that's all. Please stop referring to Jesus as "JesusYawhehElohim". It makes it hard to understand what you are saying. And we don't even want to get into the racist passages in the Koran, do we?

[b]And dont you dare tell me that I am lieing about this, because I will make you regert it, and I am very able to do that.

Oh right. This must be the peaceful muslim in you coming out of the closet. Let go and be yourself, Ali! How about we keep the personal threats to a minimum, huh? You aren't doing anything but making yourself look like a fool.

[b]And tell me those people whom he had used violence where they sitting home doing nothing sleeping. They where persecuting the Muslims and they fled to Madinah to escape persecution, and thats when the pagans gathered army and attacked Madinah, he was forced to deffend. Now dont tell me you brainless idiot that pen in mightier then sword, or preaching is mightier then sword, at the time the pagans attacked Madinah the sword was mightier, and if you dispute this meet me someday, and I will give you a pen and take the sword my self, and I will prove to you that sword is mightier then pen. It was no time for preaching it was life or death, and in deffence the sword was picked up, to deffend.

I don't even know what you are talking about, Ali Babble. Are you admitting that the Koran preaches violence? Because it sounds like you are making excuses as to why that violence was justified. That would be an admittion on your part. Newsflash! A large population of your religion read these verses you speak of as relevant today, and they act upon them. Did your "prophet", in all of his wisodm take that into account when he wrote them? Do you really believe any of this?

[b]You give no evidence no refference which proves that Muhammed used violence wrongly. You ignore the key parts of the discussion, and accuse me of lieing, you have the cheek to do this.

I just did.

[b]
I dont expect a intellectual discussion from you, because it seems that your body has divorced your brain, they are both existing seperately. Learn some basic rules of discussion like presenting evidence, and reffuting it with evidence. You are being a little kid who insists he is right, just crys on and insists he is right. I challenge you to prove me wrong on any verse of the Bible i have discussed so far, in any of my messages. And if your brain cells are not working take it to someone who has them in working oder. I hate stupid people, and I hate even more the ones without brain. Either get some sense or beat-it from here.

What verse from the Bible have you brought up? You are on here painting Christianity in this negative light, and YOU are not backing it up! When was Jesus violent? I will ask again...(Toward a person, not a table) When did he advocate violence? When did he say it should spread by violence?




[b][b]"Do you deny that? There is a very clear difference in this, much as there is a difference in me telling the story of Timothy McVeigh, and, say, me telling you to go and blow up a building."

Ofcourse its not, but let me quote you some passages of the OT where your Satanist Beloved Yahweh, is not telling a story, but is instructing the Israelites to kill:

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.
JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.
JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.
JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.
JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.
JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.
JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.
JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

We are talking about Jesus here, Ali, not Joshua. Similiar name, different person. I never said that Joshua wasn't violent. Maybe you could prove to me that Barbara Streisand is, in fact, a conservative???? I am going to wait here for you to do that.

I am going to wait for you to explain to me the above verses, in which according to your criteria, commanding fighting is evil and Muhammed cant be prophet. If we accept this criteria, you are saying that Prophet is too holy and can not take life, so God is the holliest, if he commands that a life can be taken that will mean God is false also, therefore it proves that YahwehJesus was not really god but s devil incarnate. Or alternatively, you can aggree that there are sometimes when its unavoidable to kill.

And where did Jesus kill anyone, again? Let me state this simply: Mohhamed advocated violence, and possibly killed others by his own sword. Jesus did not. Where is your misunderstanding of that?

[b][b]When did Jesus advocate violence? You say he prepared his disciples for violence. Where?"

Look man just before Jesus got arrested he took his deciples went to place positioned his deciples carefully, told them to watch out for Jesus, read the passage of matthew 26:26 onwards till the section ends, the Romans soilders came one of the deciple cut the ear of the soilder, Jesus realises that game is up he tells his deciples to put down there swords. Read the entire passage you will realise that he positioned his deciples carefully and told them to sit and and look out for him. Just before he went to the garden he told his decples in the bread and wine saga, what is going to happen, and his instructions to buy the swords was for one perpose, to get captured while figting, but while he was busy praying the Ramon soilders came and arrested him. Those swords he odered where not for pealing oninons or patato's those swords where used for cutting ear, and the reason he odered them was to cut heads off. His deciples where not so peacefull, and surely there teacher was not so peacfull either. YOu dont tell me that the deciples where stupid they didnt understood Jesus.

I have been polite so far. I will stop now. You are lying. There is no advocation of violence in this passage and you know it. Why dont you paste int he part you think is advocating violence? I have a few guesses as to what it WON'T be: Jesus telling Judas and the Mob to "do what they must"-no fighting back whatsoever. I guess you forgot to mention that in your skewed retelling of the story. Or perhaps the part when Jesus tells Peter to put away his sword. That he who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Quite the opposite of Mohammed.

[b][b]"Where is there any instruction to spread Christianity by the sword?"

Ofcourse not, Christianity was peacefull, they only killed each other for some 4 huderd years over whoes bible is from God. And ofcourse the Unitarian church had the majority fallowers, where converted to Trinitrainism without killing single of them, ofcourse the trinitarians where peacfull, they wiped out entire cities of unitarians with the help of constantine the Great, of course much heard about Gnostics they jumped in a spaceship and flew to Mars, and soon after these Nestorians and everyother sect that opposed Trinitarianism just vanished, they all became catholic without even being stared at.

Wild bores where less hostile to each other, but Catholics and more accurately the Trinitrain church when they became the official church declared by Constantine, he gave all of his army in the blood of Christ, and this Army killed everysingle non-trintarain, non-Catholic christian group, that ever existed. You idiot, have you ever read anything about the Christian History, my uncivilised dog is more civilised then your christian ancestors. This Christianity only used dove to convert people to their religion, here i recogmend some Orientalist books for you, Bart Erhman, Lost Christianities, and if you cant ford it I will send you the money, it has a detailed account of how Chrisitians systemetically oblibterated every sect of Christianity.

And...? I don't deny that Christianity has a violent history. I asked "Where does the Bible instruct this?" Learn to read. I will add that to your list of unanswered questions. I don't think you want to get into the violent actions of the followers of our two faiths. Watched the news lately? You might want to re-sheath that sword.

[b]"Surely you see the difference in Jesus knocking over a table in the temple, and Mohhamed instructing his followers to slay the infidel wherever you find them?"

Ever heard of the word context, read the vese in the context it says those who fight you in battle and oppress you, kill them where ever you find them.


Another lie. That is not what it says. I quoted that verse above. I invite you to read it.


[b]Why did Jesus turn the tables, because he was a fanatical terrorist, who coulnt tolerate people doing there business in the temple. Dont

Terrorist? Keep digging, Ali. You give Mohhamed a good name.

[bhukkadakota]

The majority of muslim people are very nice people, they dont use violence that you think all muslims do. The violent muslims are a minority but have the support of the islam communities in the middle east because they have been oppressed. This minority resort to terrorism and use the koran to justify it, even though i strongly feel terrorism is wrong, this is the only way they can fight back. It is wrong to claim that the majority of muslims practice this violence, islam is the arabic word for peace and most muslims are practicing this.

[jwkenne]

The majority of muslim people are very nice people, they dont use violence that you think all muslims do. The violent muslims are a minority but have the support of the islam communities in the middle east because they have been oppressed. This minority resort to terrorism and use the koran to justify it, even though i strongly feel terrorism is wrong, this is the only way they can fight back. It is wrong to claim that the majority of muslims practice this violence, islam is the arabic word for peace and most muslims are practicing this.

I never said all or most muslims were violent. The discussion is about whether or not Jesus advocated violence, which Ali has yet to show, and whether Moahhamed did advocate it, which he clearly did. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you want to start a thread on whether muslims are violent people, you are more than welcome to do that.

[jwkenne]

Bump, Ali. Why was Jesus a terrorist, again?

[ali420]

YOU have not written anything which deserves a response, just a little thinking will answer most of points you raised. I am not responding to you because you dont have the ability to take part in objective and a meaningfull debate, dont think that you have written something which i cant respond to, you will be too foolish to assume that.

Lastly you have not answered any of the points i raised, eg, I said even if the command to killing every living being in the city was for a only a short period of time, and pacificly used against only one city, still proves one thing Yahweh is evil. You ignored this point.

The Reason I write YahwehEllohimJesus in some places or something similiar to this, is because you are a trinitarian who beleives Jesus is one in three, so these three YahwehEllohimJesus are reaally one pretending to be differnt, thats why Jesus being one with three is equallly responsiable. Now dont hubba bubba you none sense that Jesus is not this nd that, simply accept it.

I dont have time to engage in futile debates especially where there is no honesty in it, where a debator evades the parts of the disscussion because he cant provide a answer to it, rahter deceptively answers on the matters which are not being questioned, a classic example would be of your missionary friend, I am asking him tell me that verse on trinity in the GOSPLE OF JOHN is forgery or not, the poor chap, has not a grain of honesty, or dignity in him, I have asked him three times, even higlighted the demand in bold, yet no answer.

And I wrote about Jesus commanding his deciples to buy swords, no explaination is given, why he wanted to buy swords, and no explaination is given, why the Roman soilders ear was cut off, if Jesus was peacefull surely he would have taught peacefullnes to his deciples, no anwers given, just rant rant rant rant, about the irrelevent issues, I am sure you will aggree that there is aamount of crap a person can take, from those who are hell bent on ignoring everything that hurts there beleif.

Another anoying thing is copy and paste jobs, like your missionary friend on the other board, barrowed chunks from the answering Islam, when he used all the chunks, and now he has copied the entire article, he has gone a full circle.

Here take my word, read my responses again, make a fresh start, explain to me where I am wrong, why I am wrong, if i have read the passages wrong, give me correct understanding, explain to me like you would have to explain to a child, leave nothing on my intelligence, just think you are writting for a child, who cant use his brain to work out what it is wirtten. Also dont ignore any part of the disccussion, answer my responses full, POINT by POINT. And when you write something worthy of a response from me, I will.

I have alot to write on other matters, and I only respond to selected posts. And I rarely debate, because I dont like to debate a idiot, liar, deceptive person, and un-objective person, I rather not waiste time with such people.

Ali

[jwkenne]

YOU have not written anything which deserves a response, just a little thinking will answer most of points you raised. I am not responding to you because you dont have the ability to take part in objective and a meaningfull debate, dont think that you have written something which i cant respond to, you will be too foolish to assume that.

You are a barrell of laughs, Ali. This thread began with someone asking you legitimate questions about Islam. In response to her, you said that Jesus was violent, advocated violence, was racist, was a terrorist, etc. You have yet to quote one Bible verse from the New Testament. Not one. You then claimed that Mohammed never instructed anyone to kill anyone, not in self defense. You challenged me to show you "one verse in the Koran" where he said to kill. I showed you a few, and I could show you many more. Did you expect no one to call you on this? Who is foolish here, Ali???


Lastly you have not answered any of the points i raised, eg, I said even if the command to killing every living being in the city was for a only a short period of time, and pacificly used against only one city, still proves one thing Yahweh is evil. You ignored this point.

We can move on to the character of Yahweh in the Old Testament after you back up your other claims, and explain to me some of those verses in the Koran we (oops, I meant "I") talked about. You never did respond. Hell, we can talk about whatever you like. First you need to dig yourself out of that hole you're in. I can hardly hear you as it is.

The Reason I write YahwehEllohimJesus in some places or something similiar to this, is because you are a trinitarian who beleives Jesus is one in three, so these three YahwehEllohimJesus are reaally one pretending to be differnt, thats why Jesus being one with three is equallly responsiable. Now dont hubba bubba you none sense that Jesus is not this nd that, simply accept it.

Did I say I believed in the trinity? Your "prophet" claims the God of Abraham does he not? Does he bear any responsibility for Yahweh's actions? If that is the best you can do, then just say it, and I will leave you alone. Well, Ali? Jesus advocated violence and was a violent racist terrorist because...you find Yahweh to be unjust? Is that your argument?

I dont have time to engage in futile debates especially where there is no honesty in it, where a debator evades the parts of the disscussion because he cant provide a answer to it, rahter deceptively answers on the matters which are not being questioned, a classic example would be of your missionary friend, I am asking him tell me that verse on trinity in the GOSPLE OF JOHN is forgery or not, the poor chap, has not a grain of honesty, or dignity in him, I have asked him three times, even higlighted the demand in bold, yet no answer.

I don't know who or what thread you are talking about, and I honestly don't care. I have some very simple questions for you, Ali.

Where in the gospels does Jesus advocate or perform physical violence?
Where in the gospels does Jesus behave as a racist terrorist?
What on earth are we going to do with those darned verses in the Koran I brought up?


And I wrote about Jesus commanding his deciples to buy swords, no explaination is given, why he wanted to buy swords, and no explaination is given, why the Roman soilders ear was cut off, if Jesus was peacefull surely he would have taught peacefullnes to his deciples

I am guessing that you are referring to the passage in Luke. You would do well to realize that this is a self-defeating argument. After Jesus instructs the disciples to buy swords, they respond that they have two. Two, for eleven men. Now, if Jesus and his disciples were some band of violent zealots, or "terrorists", as you so eloquently put it, surely they would have been better armed than this, don't you think? More telling, Jesus tells them that "is enough". It is clear, despite your assertion, that they were not "preparing for war". You also ignored, even after brought it to your attention, that when He and His disciples are approached by the mob, Jesus instructs his followers NOT to fight. And, most ironic, is your last statement. Jesus does teach peacefulness to his disciples...a couple of verses after your supposed failed war they were going to wage when he tells them that "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." Well then. Next?


, no anwers given, just rant rant rant rant, about the irrelevent issues, I am sure you will aggree that there is aamount of crap a person can take, from those who are hell bent on ignoring everything that hurts there beleif.

You have a really good eye for irony, don't you Ali?

Another anoying thing is copy and paste jobs, like your missionary friend on the other board, barrowed chunks from the answering Islam, when he used all the chunks, and now he has copied the entire article, he has gone a full circle.

What???? Are you high?

Here take my word, read my responses again, make a fresh start, explain to me where I am wrong, why I am wrong, if i have read the passages wrong, give me correct understanding, explain to me like you would have to explain to a child, leave nothing on my intelligence, just think you are writting for a child, who cant use his brain to work out what it is wirtten. Also dont ignore any part of the disccussion, answer my responses full, POINT by POINT. And when you write something worthy of a response from me, I will.

I have done this. Twice. Now it is your turn.

I have alot to write on other matters, and I only respond to selected posts. And I rarely debate, because I dont like to debate a idiot, liar, deceptive person, and un-objective person, I rather not waiste time with such people.

Spare me the rhetoric. You haven't responded to anything. There is a thread on Satanic Abrogation that you need to respond to also. What is your excuse there?

Justin

[CatholicSage]

Ali, I proved to you in the "Honesty and the Qur'an" thread that Jesus was not an advocate of Jihad by telling his disciples to buy swords. It's rather dishonest of you to bring that up in this thread, too.