Denominations within Judaism

[Timothy Leary]

For the benefit of everyone here, I think it would be Good to go over the differences between the different sects of Judaism. I'll post an explanation about Karaism, and hopefully Eli will go over Masorti (Conservative Judaism), and i'll nag arcadejunkie to get his buttocks back over here and post about the Liberal (Reform) views.

Karaite Judaism, or Karaism for short, is quite simply sola scripturala Judaism. It is said (http://www.truejews.org/Igud_Historic_Declaration.htm) that Karaism is actually closer to Orthodox Judaism than Reform and Conservative Judaism, though I don't think that would be accurate.

Karaite Judaism accepts the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible as the only authorative sources today, since God does not direct us through the prophets or otherwise today.

The biggest differences between Karaite and Rabbinic (Orthodox) Judaism are:

1) We base our calenders on direct observation (Our Rabbinical Brethren are preparing for the time they believe it will be appropriate)

2) Karaites do not accept Oral Traditions as being on par with Torah, or part of it. We don't see anything wrong with Tradition in and of itself - heck, we have plenty of our own traditions.(This might be similar to Lutheran objections to Catholicism, I dunno 4 sure)

3) Karaite Tzitzit have always had blue in them.

[shunyadragon]

For the benefit of everyone here, I think it would be Good to go over the differences between the different sects of Judaism. I'll post an explanation about Karaism, and hopefully Eli will go over Masorti (Conservative Judaism), and i'll nag arcadejunkie to get his buttocks back over here and post about the Liberal (Reform) views.

Karaite Judaism, or Karaism for short, is quite simply sola scripturala Judaism. It is said (http://www.truejews.org/Igud_Historic_Declaration.htm) that Karaism is actually closer to Orthodox Judaism than Reform and Conservative Judaism, though I don't think that would be accurate.

Karaite Judaism accepts the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible as the only authorative sources today, since God does not direct us through the prophets or otherwise today.

The biggest differences between Karaite and Rabbinic (Orthodox) Judaism are:

1) We base our calenders on direct observation (Our Rabbinical Brethren are preparing for the time they believe it will be appropriate)

2) Karaites do not accept Oral Traditions as being on par with Torah, or part of it. We don't see anything wrong with Tradition in and of itself - heck, we have plenty of our own traditions.(This might be similar to Lutheran objections to Catholicism, I dunno 4 sure)

3) Karaite Tzitzit have always had blue in them.It would be very interesting to me to understand Judaism better and the denominations.

I am interested in several points.

(1) In Christianity there has been a great deal of antagonism between the denominations and historically a great deal of violent conflict. Even today the chasms are great and bitter and the issue of who is salved is a big issue. I was under the opinion that disagreements may be strong, but in Judaism the rifts are not so extreme. I would like to hear the views of the different denominations on this issue.

(2) I am interested in the historical background between the divisions.

(3) What is the differences in historicity and inerrancy of the scripture between the denominations.

(4) In light of this how are the issues of evolution vs. creation viewed in the different denominations.

Please explain #3. 'blue in them?'

[Timothy Leary]

(1) In Christianity there has been a great deal of antagonism between the denominations and historically a great deal of violent conflict. Even today the chasms are great and bitter and the issue of who is salved is a big issue. I was under the opinion that disagreements may be strong, but in Judaism the rifts are not so extreme. I would like to hear the views of the different denominations on this issue.

Ever since around the crusades, even the most unwise of our people have realized that turning our differences into wars creates too much problems. I can't say that about when the last temple stood (during Jesus' lifetime) - it was downright violent during that time.

(2) I am interested in the historical background between the divisions.

Which ones?

(3) What is the differences in historicity and inerrancy of the scripture between the denominations.

According to my experiences, I've created a table which is shown in the attached .gif image.


(4) In light of this how are the issues of evolution vs. creation viewed in the different denominations.

The number of answers to that question is approximately ∞ to the power of ∞, divided by א.

Please explain #3. 'blue in them?'

Nunbers 15:37-41 and Deut. 22:12. See http://www.karaite-korner.org/tzitzit.shtml for a karaite position and http://www.tekhelet.com/ for the orthodox position.

[bar Jonah]

Interesting, I didn't know anything about the Karaite position. I would have to respect that more than any other non-Messianic sect of Judaism, certainly. (I am a hair's breadth away from Sola Scriptura, myself, as a Christian, so I can appreciate the view!)

Couple of questions.

Do the Karaites believe that the entire Tanakh is divinely inspired? I've spoken even to Orthodox Jews who say they believe only the Torah is divinely inspired.

Also, just to clarify the whole... so the Karaite position is basically as close as one can get to biblical Tanakh Judaism? (Minus those things revolving around the Temple, of course.)

[shunyadragon]

Ever since around the crusades, even the most unwise of our people have realized that turning our differences into wars creates too much problems. I can't say that about when the last temple stood (during Jesus' lifetime) - it was downright violent during that time.
I found the Judism that evolved out of the past through the 18th and 19th centuries a very different Judaism than the past. To day I find furious debate among some, shuning and ridicule among others, and a rising indifference among many.

Which ones?
I am mostly interested in the claimed heritage of the important denominations and the major schisms between the present denominations and some commentary why this happened.

According to my experiences, I've created a table which is shown in the attached .gif image.

The number of answers to that question is approximately ∞ to the power of ∞, divided by א.
The image was helpful, but the second response was a bit of the dodge I often hear similar avoidance of the issue in my discussions with the more faithful and make the effort to ask people of many different beliefs about this subject. The choices are not large in number, but may be controversial in light of the knowledge of the modern world. I can see that many of the more conservative choices would object to the theories believed in science, but your comment explains little. Judaism is for the most part rather quiet on the issue of scientific history in public.

In the past radical Hebrew philosophers like Spinosa were kicked out of the fold and have never been called back. But recently famous scientists like Einstein openly holding similar views brought few if any protests. The outspoken view by Einstein and other well known Jewish scientists of the past hundred years supporting OE and evolution seems to have mutted conservative support for the literal inerrant YEC and creationism.

I would like to see more from different denominations.

[Menachem]

I guess I will drag my butt on here and comment on Orthodox Judaism. As Yoshiah has been pushing for me to do.

Over here at the Orthodox Jewish Camp we hold the Tanakh, all 24 books of it, as scriptural. Unlike our Kariate Brethren we also have an Oral torah to which we use to interpret the written torah, The Oral torah is codified into what is called the Talmud, Mishnah and Gemara.The Midrashim is a very good read it adds a whole different level to reading the Tanakh.

We believe that the Torah, both written and oral, were given to Moses at Mount Sinai and that those traditions were handed down to us without error(Pirke Avot 1:1). So in essence we observe the mitzvot that we can, provided the Temple isn't rebuilt and the Levites and Kohenim are not around to do their mitzvot(these mitzvot are undoable since none of these are doable by your average Jew).

1.We base our calenders on a Lunar/Solar combination in order to keep the months, Holy Days, and the seasons consistent(to keep Passover in the Spring where it is supposed to be and not in the Winter time). We set our Time accordingly for observance of Shabbat from sundown to sundown.

2. We do not work on Shabbos. Lighting a fire is prohibited, yes that includes electricity unless you leave whatever it is on.
Business is not conducted on Shabbos as is a few other things but in not going into detail. No Driving a car....etc.......

3. We as Orthodox Jews do keep Kosher. As in the Laws of kashrut. we do not eat Pork, shellfish, fish without scales, nor anything flavored with the said. We do not mix Meat and Milk. We keep them separate.

4. As for the Tzitzit ours are White, only becasue the color of the Dye used is lost to this day. The color of the dye was found on a type of Snail called Chilzone. It was a sky blue dye.

Many Orthodox Jews do not accept the other Jewish Movements as part of Judaism.
I think that this is wrong in some cases but right in others. Wrong in case of the Conservative Movement, but right in the case of the Reform movement. Any Movement calling itself Jewish and doing away with parts of the Torah, such as not eating pork in the Reform case, is not Judaism by what I Know.

Just to sum it up I would like to say we as Jew's(Orthodoxy) Believe in three things: G-d, Torah(Oral and Written), and Israel.


Karaite Judaism, or Karaism for short, is quite simply sola scripturala Judaism. It is said that Karaism is actually closer to Orthodox Judaism than Reform and Conservative Judaism, though I don't think that would be accurate.

At least you dont do away with parts of the Torah to benefit yourself or make it easier on yourself, Like the Reform do..

[Timothy Leary]

Interesting, I didn't know anything about the Karaite position. I would have to respect that more than any other non-Messianic sect of Judaism, certainly. (I am a hair's breadth away from Sola Scriptura, myself, as a Christian, so I can appreciate the view!)

In how do you differ?


Do the Karaites believe that the entire Tanakh is divinely inspired?

I've spoken even to Orthodox Jews who say they believe only the Torah is divinely inspired.

I think their may have been miscommunication there. The Orthodox believe that the Biblical Books have different levels of Divine Inspiration. Sorta like how we Americans, in our legal system, view the Consitution as the highest level of law, with the rest descending from it.

Also, just to clarify the whole... so the Karaite position is basically as close as one can get to biblical Tanakh Judaism? (Minus those things revolving around the Temple, of course.)

If I didn't believe so, I'd be a bit of a hypocrit.

[Timothy Leary]

I guess I will drag my butt on here and comment on Orthodox Judaism. As Yoshiah has been pushing for me to do.

Actually, I had wanted you to comment on what Conservative Judaism is *supposed* to be, as I had thought SSV would have commented in here by now.


At least you dont do away with parts of the Torah to benefit yourself or make it easier on yourself, Like the Reform do..

True. My objection came from the Oral Law issue, but now that I think about it, they were probably thinking of observance, in which case I'd agree with them.

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Actually, I had wanted you to comment on what Conservative Judaism is *supposed* to be, as I had thought SSV would have commented in here by now.

You were saying? :smile:

Anyway...

1) As an orthodox Jew, I say: What Eli said!

2) Traditional, normative Judaism (the Karaites aside, see http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm#Karaites) is orthodox. As you may read below, the Reform, Conservative & Reconstructionist movements are newfangled movements that developed in Europe, in reaction to the Enlightenment. They have junked so many core Jewish beliefs and, in effect, make it up as they go along, influenced by whatever happens to be trendy at the moment & taking care to be "politically correct". This is Judaism??!! I grew up, as I like to say, de jure Conservative but de facto nothing. I looked at what the Conservative movement offered & was thoroughly underwhelmed & unimpressed. Orthodox Judaism is all-encompassing and supplies a deep emotional commitment & spiritual food for the soul. Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah comes from God; the Reform movement does not. The Conservative movement tries to straddle a middle ground that does not exist. If one does not believe that the Torah is from God, then what's the point? Judaism is not, and never has been, an everyone-for-him/herself religion. Orthodoxy (which is a broader spectrum than most non-Orthodox realize) recognizes that there is a certain set of core beliefs that are immutable & which serve to bind all Jews everywhere, much as they have for thousands of years. Take Shabbat (i.e. the Sabbath, see (http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm), most of the observance of which the Reform movement has junked altogether (I guess they ignore Isaiah 56:1-2 and 56:6-7) & which the Conservative movement has made "optional." An early Zionist writer wrote, about this binding set of core beliefs & norms which I've just mentioned, "More than the Jews have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jews."

I quote from http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm#US:

The Orthodox movements are all very similar in belief, and the differences are difficult for anyone who is not Orthodox to understand. They all believe that G-d gave Moses the whole Torah at Mount Sinai. The "whole Torah" includes both the Written Torah (the first five books of the Bible) and the Oral Torah, an oral tradition interpreting and explaining the Written Torah. They believe that the Torah is true, that it has come down to us intact and unchanged. They believe that the Torah contains 613 mitzvot binding upon Jews but not upon non-Jews. This web site is written primarily from the modern Orthodox point of view. The 1990 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) performed by the Council of Jewish Federations found that 7% of the Jews in America identify themselves as Orthodox.

Reform Judaism does not believe that the Torah was written by G-d. The movement accepts the critical theory of Biblical authorship: that the Bible was written by separate sources and redacted together. Reform Jews do not believe in observance of commandments as such, but they retain much of the values and ethics of Judaism, along with some of the practices and the culture. The original, basic tenets of American Reform Judaism were set down in the Pittsburgh Platform. Many non-observant, nominal, and/or agnostic Jews identify themselves as Reform simply because Reform is the most liberal movement, but that is not really a fair reflection on the movement as a whole. The NJPS found that 42% of the Jews in America identify
themselves as Reform. There are approximately 900 Reform synagogues in the United States and Canada. For more information about Reform Judaism, see The Union of American Hebrew Congregations.

Conservative Judaism grew out of the tension between Orthodoxy and Reform. It was formally organized as the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism in by Dr. Solomon Schechter in 1913, although its roots in the Jewish Theological Seminary of America stretch back into the 1880s. Conservative Judaism maintains that the truths found in Jewish scriptures and other Jewish writings come from G-d, but were transmitted by humans and contain a human compontent. Conservative Judaism generally accepts the binding nature of halakhah, but believes that the Law should change and adapt, absorbing aspects of the predominant culture while remaining true to Judaism's values. In my experience, there is a great deal of variation among Conservative synagogues. Some are indistinguishable from Reform, except that they use more Hebrew; others are practically Orthodox, except that men and women sit together. Most are very traditional in substance, if not always in form. This flexibility is deply rooted in Conservative Judaism, and can be found within their own Statement of Principles, Emet ve-Emunah. The NJPS found that 38% of the Jews in America identify themselves as Conservative. There are approximately 750 Conservative synagogues in the world today.

Reconstructionist Judaism is theoretically an outgrowth of Conservative, but it doesn't fit neatly into the traditional/liberal, observant/non-observant continuum that most people use to classify movements of Judaism. Reconstructionists believe that Judaism is an "evolving religious civilization." They do not believe in a personified deity that is active in history, and they do not believe that G-d chose the Jewish people. From this, you might assume that Reconstructionism is to the left of Reform; yet Reconstructionism lays a much greater stress on Jewish observance than Reform Judaism. Reconstructionists observe the halakhah if they choose to, not because it is a binding Law from G-d, but because it is a valuable cultural remnant. Reconstructionism is a very small movement but seems to get a disproportionate amount of attention, probably because there are a disproportionate number of Reconstructionists serving as rabbis to Jewish college student organizations and Jewish Community Centers. Everyone I know seems to have had a Reconstructionist rabbi at college or in a community center, yet according to the NJPS, only 1% of the Jews in America identify themselves as Reconstructionist. There are less than 100 Reconstructionist synagogues world-wide. See the Jewish Reconstructionist Federation home page.

The author of the http://www/jewfaq.org/toc.htm site that I like to cite so much writes (http://www.jewfaq.org/#Welcome):

The information in this site is written predominantly from the Orthodox viewpoint, because I believe that is the starting point for any inquiry into Judaism. As recently as 200 years ago, this was the only Judaism, and it still is the only Judaism in many parts of the world.

http://www.ou.org/torah/belief.html is also a good site that has lots of articles, from a "modern orthodox" perspective.

I respect Karaism (Hi Yoshiah_ap!) and i respect the Samaritan faith (see http://www.mystae.com/reflections/messiah/samaritans.html). Karaites & Samaritans have their traditions & they stick to them. There's no such thing as "Reform Karaites" or "Reconstructionist Samaritans." Only we have this madness of junking core beliefs. Jacob Neusner wrote:

When religion becomes a matter of personal opinion, then morality gives way to impulse and whim, and sentimentality rules. Private religion appeals to the feeling of the moment and, under such conditions, learning and tradition can no longer govern...If religion is how I feel this morning, then no tradition stands in judgement of what I do, no commandments guide my life, God is not invited to do more than pass an opinion, if that much.

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[shunyadragon]

Hi all!



You were saying? :smile:

Anyway...

1) As an orthodox Jew, I say: What Eli said!

2) Traditional, normative Judaism (the Karaites aside, see http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm#Karaites) is orthodox. As you may read below, the Reform, Conservative & Reconstructionist movements are newfangled movements that developed in Europe, in reaction to the Enlightenment. They have junked so many core Jewish beliefs and, in effect, make it up as they go along, influenced by whatever happens to be trendy at the moment & taking care to be "politically correct". This is Judaism??!! I grew up, as I like to say, de jure Conservative but de facto nothing. I looked at what the Conservative movement offered & was thoroughly underwhelmed & unimpressed. Orthodox Judaism is all-encompassing and supplies a deep emotional commitment & spiritual food for the soul. Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah comes from God; the Reform movement does not. The Conservative movement tries to straddle a middle ground that does not exist. If one does not believe that the Torah is from God, then what's the point? Judaism is not, and never has been, an everyone-for-him/herself religion. Orthodoxy (which is a broader spectrum than most non-Orthodox realize) recognizes that there is a certain set of core beliefs that are immutable & which serve to bind all Jews everywhere, much as they have for thousands of years. Take Shabbat (i.e. the Sabbath, see (http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm), most of the observance of which the Reform movement has junked altogether (I guess they ignore Isaiah 56:1-2 and 56:6-7) & which the Conservative movement has made "optional." An early Zionist writer wrote, about this binding set of core beliefs & norms which I've just mentioned, "More than the Jews have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jews."

I quote from http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm#US:



The author of the http://www/jewfaq.org/toc.htm site that I like to cite so much writes (http://www.jewfaq.org/#Welcome):



http://www.ou.org/torah/belief.html is also a good site that has lots of articles, from a "modern orthodox" perspective.

I respect Karaism (Hi Yoshiah_ap!) and i respect the Samaritan faith (see http://www.mystae.com/reflections/messiah/samaritans.html). Karaites & Samaritans have their traditions & they stick to them. There's no such thing as "Reform Karaites" or "Reconstructionist Samaritans." Only we have this madness of junking core beliefs. Jacob Neusner wrote:



Be well!

ssv :hi:
Thank you for the references.

[Menachem]

Actually, I had wanted you to comment on what Conservative Judaism is *supposed* to be, as I had thought SSV would have commented in here by now.

Ok I will. Think of Orthodox Judaism watered down a bit. Gulp....


What SSV said was right on the nose as always. Good job guys.

[Timothy Leary]

I grew up, as I like to say, de jure Conservative but de facto nothing. I looked at what the Conservative movement offered & was thoroughly underwhelmed & unimpressed.

That's why I try to make a clear distinction between what most of the Conservative movement has become, and the few who practice it as it was meant to be practice, which perhaps is the whole reasoning behind the Modern Orthodox school of thought, which sadly is starting to slide the same way.

As you may read below, the Reform, Conservative & Reconstructionist movements are newfangled movements that developed in Europe, in reaction to the Enlightenment.

THough, imo, Orthodox Judaism changed in parts due to the Conservative and Reform Movements (and way back when, the "formalization" of Karaism, ask me if you want more info on that). However, it's changes has not been in the fundamental cores, which is a big difference.

I respect Karaism (Hi Yoshiah_ap!) and i respect the Samaritan faith (see http://www.mystae.com/reflections/m...samaritans.html). Karaites & Samaritans have their traditions & they stick to them. There's no such thing as "Reform Karaites" or "Reconstructionist Samaritans." Only we have this madness of junking core beliefs. Jacob Neusner wrote:

While some will not examine their traditions, many Karaites will extremely examine their traditions. I am, probably moreso than I should, extremely critical of many of these traditions.

When the late Hakham Alfandri made aliyah, he moved in a Karaite community to find not only did they have no knowledge of key karaite writings such as Chizzuk Emunah (you should know about that one), but one of their traditions was in contradiction of the Torah. While not glady recieved at first, they realized they were in the wrong and the tradition was eliminated.

About the Shomerim,

Don't forget

http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com/

http://the-samaritans.com/

[bar Jonah]

Your link to http://the-samaritans.com/ doesn't work, friend... Just FYI.

[Timothy Leary]

yeah, it's temporarily down. They've said that it will be up again soon.

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

What do you think of this? It's a 10-year-old article from The Jerusalem Report (http://www.jrep.com/) on why the Reform & Conservative movements have never caught on in Israel (and 10 years later they still haven't).

Serious as the legal barriers facing the non-Orthodox movements are, the cultural ones are far greater. To demand equal rights for Reform and Conservative Judaism in Israel today is like calling for Eskimo rights in Guatemala: in principle justified, but where's the constituency?

Most Israelis - including those who claim to be supportive - just don't understand the idea of denominations. (...).

...the resolution recently passed at a convention of U.S. Reform rabbis in Jerusalem, which refers to Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews as "the majority of Israeli Jews." The "logic" here is that anyone not Orthodox surely identifies with one of the other movements. In fact, if membership in Reform and Conserative congregations were to reach 1 percent of the Jewish population here, it would apparently represent massive growth.

Beneath such misunderstandings are two ways of looking at religion. American Jews have a Protestant perspective, a product of their environment. Israel can be seen as a "Catholic" country.

Not that my neighbors wear crucifixes. But for Catholics - at least in most countries where Catholicism is dominant - religion is an institution outside themselves. They can accept it or reject it; but they don't expect it to change to fit their beliefs. If they don't like the clergy or the ritual they stay home. Similarly, secular Israelis regularly tell me, "The synagogue I don't go to is Orthodox." They expect a shul [synagogue] to have a divider between men and women; they giggle at the idea of a rabbi who drives on Shabbat, and they use the same Hebrew word, dati, for "religious" and "Orthodox."

Protestantism, on the other hand, posits the "priesthood of all believers." The source of religious authority is the individual's heart, and every layman can pick, or create, the institution that fits his convictions and conscience. A Presbyterian who no longer likes his church's services or doctrine can become a Baptist. A Jew unhappy with the Conservative prayerbook, or talk of keeping kosher, can join the nearest Reform temple.

If you have one view of religion, it's easy to see the other as foolish. That's a mistake; both have strong theological foundations. The point is that non-Orthodox denominations of Judaism have flourished, quite naturally, in Protestant countries. And most Israelis have their roots elsewhere - in Catholic lands, or in Eastern Orthodox or Muslim ones, which share the same view of religion.

That's why the Reform and Conservative movements are tiny here, and that's why they lack a constituency of their own in their fight for legal recognition of religious pluralism.

I like the author's (rather astute, I think) analysis. The week that the issue of The Jerusalem Report with this article in it came out, DW & I drove to Tel Aviv-Jaffa for a wedding. We gave a ride to a young conscript soldier on leave, from northern Jerusalem all the way to Jaffa, where he lived. He was obviously some flavor of Sephardi (i.e. his parents came from a North African or Middle Eastern, i.e. Islamic, country; it turns out that his parents were Jews from Libya & Kurdistan). Without telling him anything, we asked him what he thought of the Reform & Conservative movements. He replied, "Ashkenazi meshuga'as!," i.e. "European/North American Jewish craziness!" He wasn't strictly orthodox (we asked) & fit the "The synagogue I don't go to is Orthodox" model mentioned in the foregoing excerpt.

It is surely no coincidence that the Reform movement started in northern Germany, which is mainly Protestant (as opposed to Bavaria, which is Catholic).

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[shunyadragon]

Hi all!

What do you think of this? It's a 10-year-old article from The Jerusalem Report (http://www.jrep.com/) on why the Reform & Conservative movements have never caught on in Israel (and 10 years later they still haven't).


It is surely no coincidence that the Reform movement started in northern Germany, which is mainly Protestant (as opposed to Bavaria, which is Catholic).

Be well!

ssv :hi:Very informative post on the nature of denominations in Isreal and the west.

Interesting point. The formation of denominations in Europe and the splits in the early church (Roman/Orthodox) have strong political motives behind them. For Example the Lutheran Church of Germany began the Protestant break up motivated strongly by the rise of power of German Princes.

In Isreal and else where the political motivation for the development of denominations is lacking. The primary motivating force in western countries is based on the effort to adapt to the modern changing world and science. Judaism in Europe strongly resisted intellectual desent and modern views encouraging the formation of denominations. In Isreal the religious establishment has taken a more pragmatic view and allowed intellectual and theological desent to a much greater extent. The motivation for forming or belonging to a denomination is just not there. I also feel that the Jews of Isreal feel it is more important to be united for the State of Isreal and not theological considerations, which are secondary or even unimportant.

[Timothy Leary]

SSV,

I would wager that R&C don't do well in Israel, because of how many reform Synagogues have become, to quote another, "no more than a Social Club".

[shunyadragon]

SSV,

I would wager that R&C don't do well in Israel, because of how many reform Synagogues have become, to quote another, "no more than a Social Club".I do not consider the 'social club' accusation a valid one for whether Refom or Conservative Synagogsues would be popular in Isreal. The Jews of Isreal have different priorities and those choices are not meaningful for the Jews of Isreal, whether they are right, wrong or just a 'social club'.

In my travels of the world and my visits to Isreal I have talked to many Jews and had many interesting debates. Their response to the word 'religion' is similar to what I find among many Moslems, Christians and some other religions. Many do not consider their belief or Judaism itself to be a religion. They consider what other people believe as religion. In my conversations with some Jews in Isreal they referred to the Reform and Conservative denominations as religions too in a negative way. It is interesting that a simple word that refers to what people believe becomes a stone to throw at people.

[Timothy Leary]

The reason I say that Reform Judaism has gone that way is that the overwhelming majority of Reform do not believe in God, in any way, shape, or form.

[shunyadragon]

The reason I say that Reform Judaism has gone that way is that the overwhelming majority of Reform do not believe in God, in any way, shape, or form.I do not believe it is the overwhelming majority, but agnostic beliefs and indifference ot a belief in God are common. Though in my discussions with Jews in Isreal I found this also common among those who were indifferent to religion.

Conservative Jews seemed to believe in God more, but took a more philisophical pragamatic approach.

My point is that the beliefs sympathetic to the Reform and Conservative denominations are common in Isreal, but there is a lack of motivation and priorities for the believers to bother with joining such a congregation.

Back to the subject at hand, I would like to hear more about the beliefs, particularly from the personal perspective.