Prove Jesus w/o the Bible

[NSMinistries]

This ought to be interesting!

Prove Jesus as the Son of God or as the Messiah without using the Bible.

[Hitch]

Why?

Hitch

[Bartholomew]

Do you find the early church fathers to be authoritative? You could go there to "prove" it.

~Matt

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 02:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64296#post64296)
Hitch:

Why?

Hitch

Because you can run into people who do not want you to use the Bible to witness to them.

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 02:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64297#post64297)
InquisitorKind:

Do you find the early church fathers to be authoritative? You could go there to "prove" it.

~Matt

Would work if those people knew about that.

[Bartholomew]

Today @ 03:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64299#post64299)
NSMinistries:



Because you can run into people who do not want you to use the Bible to witness to them.

If they do not accept the Bible, the first task would be to getting them to accepting it, not trying to prove that which is in the Bible through external sources.

~Matt

[Bartholomew]

Today @ 03:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64300#post64300)
NSMinistries:



Would work if those people knew about that.

Why don't you educate them then? :bonk:

~Matt

[joelkaki]

Prove Jesus as the Son of God or as the Messiah without using the Bible.

That is kind of a moot point, because without the Bible, we wouldn't know of such a "thing" (term used hesitantly) as a Messiah.

Joel

[Blake Reas]

04-14-2003 @ 08:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=66600#post66600)
joelkaki:



That is kind of a moot point, because without the Bible, we wouldn't know of such a "thing" (term used hesitantly) as a Messiah.

Joel

The fact that natural man can not come to God on his own. God can enlighten man to understand scriptrure so basically what I am saying is that a unbeliever will not believe until the HS enlightens him to understand scripture and realize its divine nature.

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake Reas

:spam: :whack:

[AVmetro]

Yesterday @ 05:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73212#post73212)
Blake Reas:



The fact that natural man can not come to God on his own. God can enlighten man to understand scriptrure so basically what I am saying is that a unbeliever will not believe until the HS enlightens him to understand scripture and realize its divine nature.

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake Reas

:spam: :whack:

That's right. Atheists who have claimed to have studied the bible daily, are only wasting their time without the Spirit of God. See my sig. :wink:

[Athanasian]

Today @ 01:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73620#post73620)
AVmetro:
That's right. Atheists who have claimed to have studied the bible daily, are only wasting their time without the Spirit of God. See my sig. :wink:

How does that work? You have to believe in the Spirit of God to call on it, and you can't call on it unless you know about it, and you won't know about it unless someone teaches you about it or you read it in the Bible.

So is the Bible no good on its own? How does an atheist get from 'I don't believe in God and His word is useless to me because I don't have the Spirit of God', to 'I believe in God and His Spirit! Praise the Lord, I now understand the Scriptures!?

Thanks for your reply to me a while back by the way. Now I'm less busy, i'll see if I can get aroun dto it.

[AVmetro]

How does that work? You have to believe in the Spirit of God to call on it,

Or simply God - Heb11:6.

and you can't call on it unless you know about it, and you won't know about it unless someone teaches you about it or you read it in the Bible.

I said without the Spirit of God. What does the passage I cited say? Are you implying that it doesn't mean what it says? What was I applying this to? Atheists who READ and STUDY the Bible DAILY and are yet STILL in disbelief.

That was the context of my point.

2Ti 3:7 - "..always learning, but never being able to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

..cf..

1Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So is the Bible no good on its own?

Not if you can't understand it. See the above. What was I applying this to?

How does an atheist get from 'I don't believe in God and His word is useless to me because I don't have the Spirit of God', to 'I believe in God and His Spirit! Praise the Lord, I now understand the Scriptures!?

Here's another, related means - Jn6:44, Jn6:65, Rev3:20.

Thanks for your reply to me a while back by the way. Now I'm less busy, i'll see if I can get aroun dto it.

Thank you. :smile:

-God bless-

[Athanasian]

04-20-2003 @ 07:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=74013#post74013)
Or simply God - Heb11:6.

So you have to believe in God before you can read the Bible, fine. So where does that leave atheists? :hrm:

I said [i]without the Spirit of God. What does the passage I cited say?

Yes I know. So the Bible doesn't make sense unless you have the Spirit of God, and you can't get the Spirit of God unless you know about God, and how you know about God is... how?

[qutoe]Are you implying that it doesn't mean what it says? What was I applying this to? Atheists who READ and STUDY the Bible DAILY and are yet STILL in disbelief.[/quote]

I agree that atheists read and study the Bible daily and are yet in unbelief. I disagree that this proves that you need the Spirit of God to understand the Bible. Christians all over the globe apparently have the Spirit of God, and come to radically different conclusions on just about everything. So God can't really be too concerned about what we believe. Just a few essentials, that's all.

2Ti 3:7 - "..always learning, but never being able to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

..cf..

1Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Yes, I agree with this. So Paul tells us to compare spiritual things with spiritual things. And I believe that this is what the Bereans did. How else do you tell what is true?

Not if you can't understand it. See the above. What was I applying this to?

But what is your final authority for determining truth? Are you Sola Scriptura or not? :shocked:

[DBoone]

"Prove Jesus as the Son of God or as the Messiah without using the Bible."

There are cases where a tribal person or even the whole tribe are stricken with repentance for their sins, and begin to seek God just on the assumption that if they feel remorse for their sins then there must be some reason for this conviction, that reason being that God is real. Eventually when Christian missionaries show up the people consider the Gospel an answer to their prayers. Some even have visions where they see white men arriving with an answer to their prayers. If you're curious I'll give you more details.

Otherwise, typically the method of missionaries is not to arrive and preach a meaningless Gospel anyway, since the people would have no social or even religious ties to the message of the Gospel in the first place. What most missionaries do that I know of is they go and pray for people and give them things they need, allowing God to establish in the giving and answered prayer a basis for understanding.

Most people who don't believe in God are unaware of something of which the believer is thoroughly convinced: that God was there long before the missionaries ever showed up.

[zionstructure]

What about other holy writings? There are many other gospels and letters that weren't included in the bible that is found in the Nag Hammadi Library...like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, and Gospel of Philip....

But if we are going to exclude the non-canonical books as well. You can find proof of Jesus, in studying his brother, James the Just. Robert Eiseman wrote a great book on him, "James the Brother of Jesus". I highly recommend it.

:cheers:

[AVmetro]

So you have to believe in God before you can read the Bible, fine.

Where did I say this? I said that in order to COME to God, you must believe in Him. You alluded to Heb11:6, whereas I cited it in order to show that I agreed with you on that point.

So where does that leave atheists?

It leaves them with Heb11:6. But let me guess your coming response. 'We must come to God by reading the bible, but to read the bible we must "believe in God" first? (See your below quote) No. You misconstrue my statements likewise.

Yes I know. So the Bible doesn't make sense unless you have the Spirit of God, and you can't get the Spirit of God unless you know about God, and how you know about God is... how?

Read once again:

Blake Reas stated: The fact that natural man cannot come to God on his own. God can enlighten man to understand scriptrure so basically what I am saying is that a unbeliever will not believe until the HS enlightens him to understand scripture and realize its divine nature.

I replied: That's right. Atheists who have claimed to have studied the bible daily, are only wasting their time without the Spirit of God. See my sig.

I stated further after your initial post to me: I said without the Spirit of God. What does the passage I cited say? Are you implying that it doesn't mean what it says? What was I applying this to? Atheists who READ and STUDY the Bible DAILY and are yet STILL in disbelief.

I then cited the following:

2Ti 3:7 - "..always learning, but never being able to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

..cf..

1Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So what you need to tell me is how an atheist who reads and studies the scriptures, indepth, daily (in unbelief), is able to come to God.

What did the passages you snipped out in my last post say? Why is it that we "pray" for unbelievers? So that God may do what? Are you insisting that God has little to do with the calling out of His sheep? I think you are.

How can an atheist come to God? He SEEKS God despite his disbelief. He doesn't go into the bible to disprove it, but to FIND God whereas the Spirit of God will open his eyes. If God draws you and you seek Him, you will find Him with the aid of His Spirit. Jn5:44; 6:44; Rev3:20. See also Jn12:37; Jude1:19 etc. versus Luke 24:45; Acts16:14; 1Cor3:6; Eph1:17.

I agree that atheists read and study the Bible daily and are yet in unbelief. I disagree that this proves that you need the Spirit of God to understand the Bible.

Simply "understand" or "understand and believe"?

Christians all over the globe apparently have the Spirit of God, and come to radically different conclusions on just about everything. So God can't really be too concerned about what we believe. Just a few essentials, that's all.

We're speaking of belief vs non-belief. Not Christianity in general.

Yes, I agree with this. So Paul tells us to compare spiritual things with spiritual things. And I believe that this is what the Bereans did. How else do you tell what is true?

? Paul is telling us that those without the Spirit of God do not accept those things which COME from the Spirit of God. In other words, no matter how much they read the bible, they will not accept those things (resurrection of Christ etc.) w/o God's Spirit.

In other words 1Cor1:18; 1:23.

But what is your final authority for determining truth? Are you Sola Scriptura or not?

Yes, I am. But the fact that you are asking only goes to show that you are misconstruing what I'm getting across.

-God bless-

[bhukkadakota]

you cant prove jesus exists
and you cant prove jesus doesnt exist
theres not enough evidence
basically christians are told what to think and take the existance of jesus on blind faith
tell me ONE reason why christianity is DEFINITLY right and say islam HAS to be wrong
at least the bible critics provide evidence and logically explain why its more likely that jesus didnt exist
and the difference is the critics actually think for themselves

[onceuponapriori]

04-23-2003 @ 05:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=76654#post76654)
DBoone:
There are cases where a tribal person or even the whole tribe are stricken with repentance for their sins...Eventually when Christian missionaries show up the people consider the Gospel an answer to their prayers. Some even have visions where they see white men arriving with an answer to their prayers. If you're curious I'll give you more details.

I'm very curious. I've heard this story, or something like it, several times now, but I've yet to see a source (link, book, etc). Do you have one handy? Thanks..

[AVmetro]

Yesterday @ 01:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=89867#post89867)
bhukkadakota:

you cant prove jesus exists
and you cant prove jesus doesnt exist
theres not enough evidence
basically christians are told what to think and take the existance of jesus on blind faith
tell me ONE reason why christianity is DEFINITLY right and say islam HAS to be wrong
at least the bible critics provide evidence and logically explain why its more likely that jesus didnt exist
and the difference is the critics actually think for themselves

I would disagree that Christianity is based merely on 'blind faith.'

Regarding Islam - I imagine that one would refute their claims concerning Christianity. They seem to intergrate quite a bit of Judaism and Christianity into their religion. E.g. 'Muhammed is from the line of Ishmael' and 'Christ did in fact exist and was a prophet - only not as described in the NT.'

Once you substantiate your claims and disprove theirs, a few of the foundational aspects of Islam would weaken.

[AVmetro]

Yesterday @ 09:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=90362#post90362)
onceuponapriori:



I'm very curious. I've heard this story, or something like it, several times now, but I've yet to see a source (link, book, etc). Do you have one handy? Thanks..

Ditto here. That does sound interesting. I wouldn't doubt it's authenticity.

-God bless-

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 01:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=89867#post89867)
bhukkadakota:

you cant prove jesus exists
and you cant prove jesus doesnt exist
theres not enough evidence

--Documents that can be traced back to that time aren't evidence? It would be better for you to argue that Jesus did exist, it's just that his ideas are skwewy. Like Islam: Mohammed existed, after all.
Some just don't want to be convinced though.

basically christians are told what to think and take the existance of jesus on blind faith

--Who tells us? Where is this monolithic authority making us believe despite the evidence that is freely available in bookshops for all to read? You forget that for Christians Jesus is still alive today, and we have had an encounter with him now, not merely with an historical account.

tell me ONE reason why christianity is DEFINITLY right and say islam HAS to be wrong

--Jesus Christ

at least the bible critics provide evidence and logically explain why its more likely that jesus didnt exist and the difference is the critics actually think for themselves

--Sorry, but if Jesus didn't exist then what evidence is there to provide? and since most of those "critics" are already ppredisposed to reject "supernaturalism" and even the existence of God - their academic status depends upon it, somehow I don't think they are interested in finding Jesus at all, unless it is a pared down Galilean Rabbi of New Age guru.

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 09:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=90362#post90362)
onceuponapriori:



I'm very curious. I've heard this story, or something like it, several times now, but I've yet to see a source (link, book, etc). Do you have one handy? Thanks..

I don't know if this is what DBoone is refering to, but when William Carey and friends when to India, their first convert was a Hindu called Krishna Pal. He had gone around all the various sages and gurus seeking the solution to his troubled conscience, for he had realised he was a sinner, and that it needed dealing with. Eventually, he was told some white wise men had arrived in Serampore, who spoke of such things as he was asking about. He went, conversed with them, and was eventually converted.

[onceuponapriori]

Thanks Solly.

[FirstSunday33ad]

04-12-2003 @ 03:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64294#post64294)
NSMinistries:

This ought to be interesting!

Prove Jesus as the Son of God or as the Messiah without using the Bible.


Every other belief on the planet can be explained without having to be true, Christianity cannot. If it is not true i.e. Christ is not the Son of God, then it cannot be explained, it should not even exist.

[Homie]

DBOONE
Some even have visions where they see white men arriving with an answer to their prayers.

HOMIE
This is true. I haven't read this anywhere but I have been to a small Pacific Island called Western Samoa where what you described happened. The legend says that an angel brought the message that white men would come to their Island and that they should listen to them. They did, the white men were met with hospitality and Samoa is still a christian country.

[sad-AM]

All christians, or any other religion for that matter can say to support their religion is true is blind faith. There is much evidence and common sense in the modern world that would make u come to the conclusion all religion is false. However, u will never convince a christian he is wrong, because they follow the bible with blind faith, and no common sense or arguements will convince them otherwise.
That is why when u ask, "can u prove christianity/jesus existed without the bible", then people come up with idiotic answers like "first we should get them to believe the bible, then we wont need other sources". Blind faith and false evidence proves nothing.

SO i ask christians, i have a 2000 yr old book saying Unicorns are real, and i believe they are real. prove that is wrong

[dizzle]

Dear nonTheistic Posters: Please review to the guidelines for posting in this section of the Forum:

We request that only theists participate here. However, all theistic points of view regarding the Person of Christ are welcome for discussion including Trinitarian, Unitarian, and others. Please note that the leadership of this forum adopts and affirms a solidly Trinitarian stance.

Many of comments made are more appropriately the subject of Religion 101 threads and do not belong in Christology. Thank you!

[Socrates]

bhukkadakota blubs:basically christians are told what to think and take the existance of jesus on blind faithNot to mention, all historians, who say that the evidence for His existence is greater than that for Julius Caesar.

bhukkadakota tell me ONE reason why christianity is DEFINITLY right and say islam HAS to be wrongMuhammad rotted in the tomb; Jesus's tomb as found empty on the 3rd day, and reliable eye-witnesses testified that they saw Him alive after that. All the first anti-christians needed to do to refute Christianity was produce the body--but they never could!

bhukkadakota :
at least the bible critics provide evidence and logically explain why its more likely that jesus didnt exist:lol: Hahah the only people who DENY it are non-historians such as a professor of German called G.A. Wells and the humanist buffoons like Prometheus Books who publish his tripe :dufus:. They are the ones who have the blind faith, contrary to all history, that Jesus did NOT exist.and the difference is the critics actually think for themselvesA bigoted misotheist thinking for himself? :rofl:

[AVmetro]

SO i ask christians, i have a 2000 yr old book saying Unicorns are real, and i believe they are real. prove that is wrong

You aren't making reference to the KJV are you? :hrm:

[bhukkadakota]

socrates you are an idiot
you know nothing but think you know everything
you make up facts as you go along
its ok but
because its not just you, there are alot of christians that need psychological help.

the bottom line is, if jesus even existed, no one cares now ( except the christians)
and if there is a god, he doesnt deserve my respect
i have my principles and i stick to them, i dont change because some book tries to tell me how to live my life. and ANYONE that orders the massacre of children doesnt deserve anything. im sure the christians say that those children would have been a big threat to god but thats BS.
christians are the type of people who think theirs nothing wrong with being a slave to god. i dont believe in being inferior to anyone including god.
we live in a civilised society, we dont bow down and worship our leaders, they are treated equal to everyone.
socrates and all the christians need to wake up and stop acting like grateful slaves. your like the russians in concentration camps that cried when stalin died, even though it was stalin that put them there.
i try and treat people equally as any other decent person would, and i think the way i do because thats me, and if god cant accept that then i cant accept him.
plus IF there really was a god, then he would like me more then you, because i think for myself, and you christians just suck up to him all the time.

[dizzle]

B-Dakota, you have violated my prior warning not to post in this section, and posted material outside the bounds of our rules. As such, you are being placed on "moderate" status, until you show you can abide by the rules of this forum.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
I'm interpreting the forum rules here to mean only posts that are not obviously anti-Jesus are allowed, not that only Christians can post. If I am mistaken please advise.

Let me try to answer the question of this thread. Perhaps I could persuade to believe in the Son of God, but not necessarily in the Jesus of the Bible.

You would first have to determine whether the person believed in God. If they didn't then you need to use the various theistic arguments to try to persuade them to accept theism first.

Once they accept the existence of God then you would argue that God is too different from us for there to be an ideal relationship. For example we're all imperfect, sinners. We need a middle-man. Someone who knows God but also knows us. Someone who is one of us but who is also divine. Such a being would properly be called the Son of God. We would desire that this being pay the debt for our mistakes by going through some kind of unbearable torment or we'd have to pay the debt our selves by being miserable for ever.

Trinitarians might argue that this Son is merely God Himself taking mortal form. He would be doing us a favor by being that go-between we needed. Polytheists might argue that this would be the number 1 servant of God who agreed to serve this role for God and for us.

You could then explain your particular doctrines about salvation and faith / works and heaven / hell and such things.

Throughout this you never quote the Bible, you merely propose arguments in which you largely make assertions that you try to show to be plausible that are based on your memory of the Bible.

If you want to prove Jesus then at some point you claim that the Son of God lived 2000 years ago and tell his story, again without opening the Bible.

Now, if you want to do all this without reference to anything which is uniquely taught in the Bible then you would never mention the Jesus of the Bible either, but just always talk about the "Son of God" who was born on Earth in some unspecified past and unspecified place.

Perhaps to avoid the questions about "where and when" you would claim that the Son lived and died in a spiritual realm somewhere between Earth and Heaven.

John Powell

[DBoone]

John - I think you're on the right track in terms of method, but you would need to use a different term than 'Son of God' because that is a specific Biblical title for the Messiah. 'Mediator' would probably work fine because it would describe Jesus' function in legal terms. Even though the word is used in the NT it is not an exclusive title to the Bible.

[ollie]

04-12-2003 @ 03:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64294#post64294)
NSMinistries:

This ought to be interesting!

Prove Jesus as the Son of God or as the Messiah without using the Bible.

Jesus is the Son of God. He is also the Messiah.
He isn't proved but believed with or with out the Bible. First century Christians did not have the New testament. What they had were ears to hear about Jesus and believe. Their ears hearing the Holy Spirit taught good news of Jesus Christ through the preaching of inspired of God men and other believers.