Observant Jews = to Satanists according to RI

[reasonabledoubt]

Right Idea said in the Islam forum that an observant Jew today is the same as a Satanist in God's eyes. I am very offended by that. Is that an attack on Jews? I am curious about what the Jewish posters here think.

[bar Jonah]

One rejects Christ.... whereas the other rejects Christ. Hmmmm..... same result. With all due respect to the Jewish members of this board, from a Christian perspective the above is true. Doesn't mean they are the same thing. It means they have the same end result. IF Christianity is true... then yes, of course both belief systems are just as wrong, each in their own way.

As for yourself, I really don't care if you're offended by it. Absolute truth is what it is.

[reasonabledoubt]

I know you don't care. That's your hallmark- speaking God's word to all us ignorant 'not real' Christians and Jews- speaking inerrant absolute truth- there was Isaiah, Jeremiah, and now Right Idea....

There's a difference between stating that only Jesus saves and equating the Jewish people as evil as Satanists.

[bar Jonah]

I do care. I just don't care if I offended by someone with what the Bible explicitly says is absolutely true.

And no, there is no difference. A Christian, by definition, believes that only Jesus saves. IF Christianity is true, that means all other religions are anti-God. Which would mean all other religions are the religions of Lucifer, Satan, Shaitan, etc. Does that mean a non-Messianic Jew today intentionally worships Satan? Absolutely not. Does that mean they have the same moral values as a Satanist? Absolutely not. I agree with a great many of their values -- the more conservative, the more I'd agree. But that is beside the point.

A non-Messianic Jew today could say there is ultimately no difference between Islam and Satanism. I've heard Jews say so, more than once. Might you grill them on that, if they were standing here? Will you grill everyone in the world who believes their religion is the only true religion?

[Berean Todd]

There's a difference between stating that only Jesus saves and equating the Jewish people as evil as Satanists.
Saying that Jews ultimately are in the same boat as Satanists is not saying that they are "as evil" as satanists ... it is merely saying that you are evil. I am evil. We all are. Everyone who has ever lived is fallen. The question is, do you accept Christ? There are levels of punishment in hell, the Scriptures teach that, but apart from Christ there is one and only one destination - whether you profess Judaism, Satanism, Budhism, Hinduism, Wicaa, or any other religion - Christ Himself says that no one comes to the Father, but through Him.

God is love, but He is also Holy, Righteous, and Just, and it's the Hebrew Scriptures that tell us that all of man's righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of such a God. God must judge our sin, and you have a choice - stand cloaked in your own works, your own righteousness, or you can come to Christ and clothe yourself in His free gift, in His righteousness. There is one way to God, the question is, what are you going to choose?

[A-Man]

Please don't lump Not Quite Right Idea in with Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Thanks
Aman

[bar Jonah]

Please don't lump Not Quite Right Idea in with Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Thanks
Aman
Thank you and AMEN! I meant to say that, and forgot!

[reasonabledoubt]

There's many Muslims who believe and think all Christians and Jews are evil and Satanic. In fact many don't mind killing themselves to kill Christians and Jews and believe they are waging a holy war. Are they right? Of course not. But by the same token any Christian who believes all Jews and Muslims are evil and Satanic are not right either.

You probably know that the Amish believe that all who are not Amish are going to hell. Are you Amish? I am sure not. They think you're going to hell. They are Christians, are they not? Are they right or wrong? I believe they are wrong. It is possible for Christians to be wrong, it is possible for Christians to misinterpret, it is possible that Christians do not know everything about God and how he acts and will act.

I would grill any person whatever faith who claims to know absolutely what God will do. Any person who has no humility but exhibits pride and arrogance in their own ability to ascertain God's will and design- pride in their "correct" interpretation of Scripture and unable to dialog with other fellow Christians who happen to interpret Scripture in a different way.

[bar Jonah]

We can know absolutely what God will do in many areas and in many respects, because the Bible tells us.


Why are we in a thread about the Christian perspective, in the forum for Judaism? :rihrm: This thread doesn't even belong here.

[reasonabledoubt]

Whatever, RI. Now you say the thread doesn't belong here?? I put it here b/c it was my intention to dialog with some Jewish people who could try to explain how Judaism differs from Satanism, and whether they think a comparison of the two religions as equally evil was valid. Sorry if that bothers you.

[reasonabledoubt]

Well then if it bugs everyone so much, move the post. Or just delete it altogether.

[Menachem]

Whatever, RI. Now you say the thread doesn't belong here?? I put it here b/c it was my intention to dialog with some Jewish people who could try to explain how Judaism differs from Satanism, and whether they think a comparison of the two religions as equally evil was valid. Sorry if that bothers you.

To RightIdea:

For one Judaism(Traditional Orthodox Judaism) does not believe in a "Satan" or "a hell." Secondly, since when does worshipping G-d turn into a "Satanic" practice thing?

Also RightIdea would be hard pressed to prove her jesus theology true to us Observant Jews. In fact if you visit the messianic prophecies thread you will see that is apparent.. you may participate if you want...

I personally dont have problem with christianity and its beliefs I think its a beautiful religion and true followers of what jesus taught should be looked at with great respect for their piety.

But if a christian wants to come up to me and say im going to "Hell" for not believing in jesus as the messiah, then I would have to say they are biting off more then they can chew!!!


We can know absolutely what God will do in many areas and in many respects, because the Bible tells us.

Who's bible? Yours or mine? Jewish bible(Tanakh) or Christian bible(GNT)?

Mine says Im on the right track and observing what G-d told me to observe.

anything more or less is not Jewish!

[bar Jonah]

Eli, I have no beef with you here. (Un)reasonable is trying to paint me with a broad brush when I was speaking on a very specific point, and is thus misrepresenting me. Have you seen me going around to Jews on this board and shouting, "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL?" Is that how I interact with people? Look at my interaction with Yoshiah and others and note how I interact with Jews and others as well.

You are not ignorant of the fact that from a Christian perspective, non-Christian Jews (and non-Christian everybody else) are going to go to Hell unless they turn around and accept Yeshua as their Lord. I won't insult you by trying to teach that to you, because you darn well know that, and to suggest you don't know it would be patronizing. We all know this. What I said was merely a reflection of that.

Would I rather be friends with a non-Messianic Jew than a Satanist? You bet! I would rather be friends with a non-Messianic Jew than just about any other non-Christian I can think of. I have prayed for peace in Israel on this board and elsewhere in life, including with fellow Christians. I have honored and defended the absolutely unique covenental relationship Israel has with my God, a relationship I do not have and do not pretend to usurp... even in the face of fellow Christians here, who would argue the opposite is true. (God bless 'em all, but I strongly disagree with them.) So I hope and pray you won't take this down an anti-semitic route, because nothing could be further from the truth.

The originally quoted words of mine at the beginning of this thread are taken drastically out of context. Again, I have no beef with you here.

[Goose]

I would like to hear thoughts from RightIdea on what the word "Christ" is and what that title means.

[dizzle]

I personally dont have problem with christianity and its beliefs I think its a beautiful religion and true followers of what jesus taught should be looked at with great respect for their piety.

But if a christian wants to come up to me and say im going to "Hell" for not believing in jesus as the messiah, then I would have to say they are biting off more then they can chew!!! How condenscending. And sheer nonsense.

How about this.


I don't have a problem with orthodox Judaism. I think it is a beautiful religion for those poor deluded fools who aren't as bright as I am. It is beautiful for them. They should be respected for their piety, stupid as it is for they twist Scripture, have a religion built upon fraud and deceit, but for those idio.. I mean thoe people that is beautiful for them. Don't let them tell me though there is just one God nosirree. Their lie is fine for them. But I know the truth and as long as they stay away from me, we'll be just fine.

How inane.

Makes about as much sense as I love Kosher food. As long as it is pork.

ugh

and for those who may misunderstand me - the above saracastic comment is in light of Eli''s belief that the NT is a gross distortion of the teachings of the Old and is completely untrue and fraudulent in that respect - not necessarily purposefully but possibly just delusionally

[bar Jonah]

Zowie..... well said, Dee Dee.

As for "Christ?"

It is the Greek equivelant of the Hebrew word "Messiah," meaning the Annointed One. There are annointed ones, and then there is The Annointed One.

But if you think I came in here to debate any aspect of non-Messianic Judaism, you have another think coming....

[dizzle]

I am not offended at all that Eli disagrees with Christianity. I am offended with the patronizing type of tripe that tells me how beautiful it is for me to believe a farce, if indeed Eli is right. I would much prefer that he be consistent. And I am also incensed about how he tells us about how much he approves of our religion as long as we practice in the way that HE says, ie don't we dare claim exclusive truth or teach that those who reject Christ are going to hell. Again, that is about as logical me as demanding Kosher pork. It gives a veneer of "tolerance" and "respect" when it is obnoxious to the core.

I don't mind straight hard truth. I don't like inanities. Either Christianity is true, and then it is a beautiful thikng, and Eli ought to believe it too. Or it is a load of dung, and NO ONE shoudl believe it, and it is not beautiful at all to believe and committ one's life to a lie.

[bar Jonah]

Quite right, sis. Couldn't have said it better, myself. (Excepting the tiny typos...) :riwink:


I'm done with this thread.

[Goose]

Zowie..... well said, Dee Dee.

As for "Christ?"

It is the Greek equivelant of the Hebrew word "Messiah," meaning the Annointed One. There are annointed ones, and then there is The Annointed One.

But if you think I came in here to debate any aspect of non-Messianic Judaism, you have another think coming....Well why not? Also, where in the Tanach does it mention The Messiah, as compared to A Messiah? If it's so important to belive in The Messiah to get to heaven, I'm sure the Almighty would have mentioned it. It would be kind of cruel to keep it from all the Jews before the 1st Century CE, don't you think?

[dizzle]

RI, yeah I am getting sloppy with typos lately. It is the fake nails and the tiny laptop keyboard. It is hard for me to type. And you know how hyper I get, and my little fingers start clicking away and you never know what spelling monstrosities might come out.

I see the whole way one views Christianity much like the Liar, Lunatic, Lord issue with Christ. One cannot simply say He was a good man. He did not leave that option open. One also cannot simply say, well Christianity is beautiful for you guys, but not for me. That door also is not left open. It doesn't work that way. Let's get real.

[dizzle]

Well why not? Also, where in the Tanach does it mention The Messiah, as compared to A Messiah? Good question, Goose, I wonder where all those Jewish writers who spoke of the messiah got that whacky idea.


If it's so important to belive in The Messiah to get to heaven, I'm sure the Almighty would have mentioned it. It would be kind of cruel to keep it from all the Jews before the 1st Century CE, don't you think? Straw man, inexcusable from a former Christian. Are you suggestingn that Christians believe that all Jews before the 1st century CE were lost?

edit to add: because obviously Christians in general do not think that a very specific confession in "the Messiah" was required.

[Menachem]

Eli, I have no beef with you here. (Un)reasonable is trying to paint me with a broad brush when I was speaking on a very specific point, and is thus misrepresenting me. Have you seen me going around to Jews on this board and shouting, "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL?" Is that how I interact with people? Look at my interaction with Yoshiah and others and note how I interact with Jews and others as well.

You are not ignorant of the fact that from a Christian perspective, non-Christian Jews (and non-Christian everybody else) are going to go to Hell unless they turn around and accept Yeshua as their Lord. I won't insult you by trying to teach that to you, because you darn well know that, and to suggest you don't know it would be patronizing. We all know this. What I said was merely a reflection of that.

Would I rather be friends with a non-Messianic Jew than a Satanist? You bet! I would rather be friends with a non-Messianic Jew than just about any other non-Christian I can think of. I have prayed for peace in Israel on this board and elsewhere in life, including with fellow Christians. I have honored and defended the absolutely unique covenental relationship Israel has with my God, a relationship I do not have and do not pretend to usurp... even in the face of fellow Christians here, who would argue the opposite is true. (God bless 'em all, but I strongly disagree with them.) So I hope and pray you won't take this down an anti-semitic route, because nothing could be further from the truth.

The originally quoted words of mine at the beginning of this thread are taken drastically out of context. Again, I have no beef with you here.


I respect you coming in here and saying that. Maybe I mistook what Reasonable doubt has said an I apologize...Or maybe I was just having a bad day with school related stress coming up....I apologize to you for coming off mean when It was not my intention. When I hear Possible insult I go into defense mode that is to say "It's on now."

Now on to DDW posts

[dizzle]

Now on to DDW posts
:eek:

[Menachem]

How condenscending. And sheer nonsense.

How about this.


I don't have a problem with orthodox Judaism. I think it is a beautiful religion for those poor deluded fools who aren't as bright as I am. It is beautiful for them. They should be respected for their piety, stupid as it is for they twist Scripture, have a religion built upon fraud and deceit, but for those idio.. I mean thoe people that is beautiful for them. Don't let them tell me though there is just one God nosirree. Their lie is fine for them. But I know the truth and as long as they stay away from me, we'll be just fine.

How inane.

Makes about as much sense as I love Kosher food. As long as it is pork.

ugh

and for those who may misunderstand me - the above saracastic comment is in light of Eli''s belief that the NT is a gross distortion of the teachings of the Old and is completely untrue and fraudulent in that respect - not necessarily purposefully but possibly just delusionally


How quaint......

Now I would like to address this post.

Here is classic example of putting words in my mouth: the quote above...


1) I never said christianity was false. I said that jesus would be hard to prove to observant Jews as the messiah since we know that he was "not the Jewish messiah".. That much is evident in the "messianic prophecies" thread!!

2) I said that it was a beautiful religion(which it is) but it is not for Jews.

3) I said RightIdea would be hard pressed to prove jesus to us. Now this means Jesus was little more than a first century Jewish teacher/zealot to us...He may have had a good impact on the world but we are not astounded by him in any way...



I never said to obsaerve christian practice according to the way "I said" I said the way according to the Christain bible. That was an utterly false claim...

When a christian does practice according to their bible I think they should be praised for their observance..

I am not offended at all that Eli disagrees with Christianity. I am offended with the patronizing type of tripe that tells me how beautiful it is for me to believe a farce, if indeed Eli is right. I would much prefer that he be consistent. And I am also incensed about how he tells us about how much he approves of our religion as long as we practice in the way that HE says, ie don't we dare claim exclusive truth or teach that those who reject Christ are going to hell. Again, that is about as logical me as demanding Kosher pork. It gives a veneer of "tolerance" and "respect" when it is obnoxious to the core.

You say your not offended but then go on to insult me.....thats fine I can handle that.... I simply said that it was not for Jews and not for me.....


since there is nothing in my post that says " how beautiful it is for you believe a farce" or in any context that way. This statement here is utterly false.

Since when does saying " this is not for Jew's(which was the context of part of my post)", move to your religion is a farce?


I don't mind straight hard truth. I don't like inanities. Either Christianity is true, and then it is a beautiful thikng, and Eli ought to believe it too. Or it is a load of dung, and NO ONE shoudl believe it, and it is not beautiful at all to believe and committ one's life to a lie.

That is why my views on this remain the same....I think Christainity is a wonderful faith but it is not for Jews.....Plus, my post was [i]not a " your faith is false, mine is true" post, it was a "Christianity is not for Jews post" combined with a "Should I accept the judgement of a faith that is not my own?" post....

I get the notion that you think my views are inconsistant....actually they have been quite consistant in that "I dont think christianity is for Jews!!!!!!"
This gets worse when christians think they need to spread the news and try to convince us(the Jews) that jesus was the messiah and our religion is incomplete......yada, yada, yada.

I apologized to Rightidea for coming off as being mean and for the misconception of his words.. I also told him it may have been due to having a bad day and all of the school related stress coming up for the semester...

I apologize if you are insulted by my post, but I do not apologize for the defense of my beliefs nor my opinions and positions.

Shalom U'Vracha(Peace and Blessings)

[Menachem]

I apologize to everyone who is offended by our back and forth boxing match here. That is not my intention...only to defend my faith and my personal opinions about something....Shalom U'vracha(Peace and Blessings)

P.S. the only reason I am on today is because I am bored and I left the computer on....So I am not breaking a Sabbath Law...Shalom

[dizzle]

Eli, I am a boxer. I don't take this stuff personally as to my person, and I hope that you are not as well. Our ideas are in a face to face - our human spirits do not have to be. If I ever mean something as truly personally insulting it is very clear. I have never meant anythikng I have said thus far to you. I do have a tremendous problem with your philosophy, but none at all with your person.

[Menachem]

Eli, I am a boxer. I don't take this stuff personally as to my person, and I hope that you are not as well. Our ideas are in a face to face - our human spirits do not have to be. If I ever mean something as truly personally insulting it is very clear. I have never meant anythikng I have said thus far to you. I do have a tremendous problem with your philosophy, but none at all with your person.


I boxed for at least 4 years(15-19). Somtimes things hit me the wrong way when I am having a bad day or I am stressed out. I think we will have our disagreements on this and many other things. Such is life, one disagreement at a time.


Plus I have a question for ya....where can I get some smilies around here?

[dizzle]

You need to use the "post a reply" button to see the smilie bar, and once you learn the smilie codes you won't need that. For instance that one I used above is : eek : without the spaces between the colons. For custom smilies like :monster: see this thread

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21020

[Menachem]

Thanks Dee Dee

[Sacrificial Ram]

I do care. I just don't care if I offended by someone with what the Bible explicitly says is absolutely true.

And no, there is no difference. A Christian, by definition, believes that only Jesus saves. IF Christianity is true, that means all other religions are anti-God. Which would mean all other religions are the religions of Lucifer, Satan, Shaitan, etc. Does that mean a non-Messianic Jew today intentionally worships Satan? Absolutely not. Does that mean they have the same moral values as a Satanist? Absolutely not. I agree with a great many of their values -- the more conservative, the more I'd agree. But that is beside the point.

A non-Messianic Jew today could say there is ultimately no difference between Islam and Satanism. I've heard Jews say so, more than once. Might you grill them on that, if they were standing here? Will you grill everyone in the world who believes their religion is the only true religion?
Actually, if you read what the Jewish law is, if someone follows the laws given to Noah, God will accept them. That include idoltry, not eating any animal that is alive, and things like that.

So, since Mulsims follow those laws, and believe in only one god, then they
are acceptable to God, (accodring to the strict interpretation of the Jewish
tradition). What individual Jewish people might think can be of course different what is promoted by the religion itself.

On the other hand, eating raw clams.. I guess you are done for.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Whatever, RI. Now you say the thread doesn't belong here?? I put it here b/c it was my intention to dialog with some Jewish people who could try to explain how Judaism differs from Satanism, and whether they think a comparison of the two religions as equally evil was valid. Sorry if that bothers you.
Well, when it comes to the concept satan, you must realise that the concept in the Jewish religion is much different than the concept of Satan in the Christian religion.

In the Jewish religion, Satan (and any angel) does not have free will. Satan's job is to provide temptation so that people can exercise free will, and by choosing to do good, become more sanctificed (what ever that means).

More information can be found in the commentary of the Book of Job (Iyov)
that is discussed here http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/

[dizzle]

Eli, BTW, I did notmean I was literally a boxer, but I meant on debate forums. And yes I do think you are inconsistent, hopefully I can get some time to put together a post to show why. I have been sick pretty bad all week.

[Jezz]

Here is classic example of putting words in my mouth: the quote above...
I do not believe that Dee Dee is putting words in your mouth. Allow me to explain:

1) I never said christianity was false. I said that jesus would be hard to prove to observant Jews as the messiah since we know that he was "not the Jewish messiah".. That much is evident in the "messianic prophecies" thread!!
According to Christianity, Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. So when you say that "you know he was not", that is the same thing as saying that Christianity is false.

2) I said that it was a beautiful religion(which it is) but it is not for Jews.
Again, Christianity claims to be for Jews as well as for Gentiles. When you say "it is not for Jews", you are saying that Christianity is false.

Since when does saying " this is not for Jew's(which was the context of part of my post)", move to your religion is a farce?
Because part of our religion states that Christianity is for everyone - Jew and Gentile alike. When you claim that "Christianity is not for Jews", you are saying "Christianity is wrong".


When a christian does practice according to their bible I think they should be praised for their observance..

[snip]

This gets worse when christians think they need to spread the news and try to convince us(the Jews) that jesus was the messiah and our religion is incomplete......yada, yada, yada.
These two quotes from your post highlights the inconsistency that Dee Dee is talking about. On the one hand, with your first comment you are claiming that Christians should be praised for practicing what our Bible teaches. Then in the second comment you turn around and say that Christians are to be despised for thinking that they need to spread the news and try to convince Jews that Jesus was the Messiah and their religion is incomplete.

Here's the thing, eli - our Bible commands us to "go and make disciples of all nations". "All nations" includes the Jews. When we try to convince you that Jesus was the Messiah and that your religion is incomplete, it's because we are "practicing according to our Bible".

So what is it, eli? Are Christians to be praised for following their Bible on this issue? Or are they to be despised for it? Your inconsistency lies in the fact that you are claiming both.

[Goose]

Good question, Goose, I wonder where all those Jewish writers who spoke of the messiah got that whacky idea.They spoke of an anointed of HaShem. Please show me, RI, where they spoke of THE Messiah.

Are you suggestingn that Christians believe that all Jews before the 1st century CE were lost?Im suggesting that if it was important to believe in "The Messiah" to "get to heaven", I'm sure it would be in the Tanach somewhere. It's quite obvious it should be if it's so important. But it's not in the Tanach...

[Pitiricus]

Saying that Jews ultimately are in the same boat as Satanists is not saying that they are "as evil" as satanists ... it is merely saying that you are evil. I am evil. We all are. Everyone who has ever lived is fallen. The question is, do you accept Christ? There are levels of punishment in hell, the Scriptures teach that, but apart from Christ there is one and only one destination - whether you profess Judaism, Satanism, Budhism, Hinduism, Wicaa, or any other religion - Christ Himself says that no one comes to the Father, but through Him.

God is love, but He is also Holy, Righteous, and Just, and it's the Hebrew Scriptures that tell us that all of man's righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of such a God. God must judge our sin, and you have a choice - stand cloaked in your own works, your own righteousness, or you can come to Christ and clothe yourself in His free gift, in His righteousness. There is one way to God, the question is, what are you going to choose?Actually there is no Satan, a Pagan invention and multiple ways to salvation...

Islam today suffers from envy to the nth degree: Islam is in a rut, Jews succeed...

As to Christians, well they have grafted paganism on the body of Judaism and try like you to preach to the real monotheists...

LOL!

[Pitiricus]

Love the Hebrew characters... Where did you take them (I would like to install them on my computer)...

[dizzle]

Jezz, you stated my problem with Eli's comment well. Christianity does not leave open the door for Eli's position. It did not intend to.

[Sacrificial Ram]

I do not believe that Dee Dee is putting words in your mouth. Allow me to explain:


According to Christianity, Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. So when you say that "you know he was not", that is the same thing as saying that Christianity is false.


Again, Christianity claims to be for Jews as well as for Gentiles. When you say "it is not for Jews", you are saying that Christianity is false.


Because part of our religion states that Christianity is for everyone - Jew and Gentile alike. When you claim that "Christianity is not for Jews", you are saying "Christianity is wrong".



These two quotes from your post highlights the inconsistency that Dee Dee is talking about. On the one hand, with your first comment you are claiming that Christians should be praised for practicing what our Bible teaches. Then in the second comment you turn around and say that Christians are to be despised for thinking that they need to spread the news and try to convince Jews that Jesus was the Messiah and their religion is incomplete.

Here's the thing, eli - our Bible commands us to "go and make disciples of all nations". "All nations" includes the Jews. When we try to convince you that Jesus was the Messiah and that your religion is incomplete, it's because we are "practicing according to our Bible".

So what is it, eli? Are Christians to be praised for following their Bible on this issue? Or are they to be despised for it? Your inconsistency lies in the fact that you are claiming both.
CHristians might make claims for the Jews, but the christians are Jews. If you think that Jesus is god made flesh, you are not a Jew. It seems that one group trying to impose their religious viewpoint about God on the entire world a bit disrepectful to the rest of the world. For you to say that unless
others accept your beliefs, they are disrespecting your beliefs sort is disrepecting others beliefs.

The concept of the Messiah in the Jewish religion is different also. The Messiah is supposed to be only a man, not divine. Jesus did not meet
the requirements for the messiah of the Jews. .. for one, there isn't world
peace yet... that seems to be rather a tall order to fill right now. There is no concept in Judaism. that the messiah will come twice.

I'll tell you what. When Jesus comes again, and completes the requirements
for the Messiah in the Jewish religion, then he will be shown to be the Jewish Messiah. Until all the requirements are fullfuilled, you can have him as your very own.

[dizzle]

that is entirely besides Jezz' point. No offense Ram but you seem to just be posting in threads your agenda and not interacting with the posts made. Conversations are back and forth. Maybe I am not "getting" it because I am sick, but your post had very little to do with Jezz' point but was a propanganda piece for your position. That would be welll for you to start off a conversation, but it is not dealing with the conversation at hand.

[Menachem]

I do not believe that Dee Dee is putting words in your mouth. Allow me to explain:


According to Christianity, Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. So when you say that "you know he was not", that is the same thing as saying that Christianity is false.

Ok now lets examine why your synopsis is wrong.

The implication that christainity is not for Jews, Does not make it an invalid path to G-d for other people. If you want to continue saying "I am saying christainity is false" I will change my view of "Both equal valid paths" to "not accepting anything as valid for anyone except my own."..I dont do that...My view is quite clear and stands....Christianity is not for Jew's, Not because it's not true, but because we Jews already have a path set for us as you as a gentile do in christianity.....

Again, Christianity claims to be for Jews as well as for Gentiles. When you say "it is not for Jews", you are saying that Christianity is false.

And Islam claims to be for Jews and christians alike...so what!!....you dont follow Islam do you...then it must be false.....I certainly dont follow Islam but I wont discourage anyone from following it if they want to, it is just as valid path as ours....it is simply not for Jews....


Because part of our religion states that Christianity is for everyone - Jew and Gentile alike. When you claim that "Christianity is not for Jews", you are saying "Christianity is wrong".

see above.



These two quotes from your post highlights the inconsistency that Dee Dee is talking about. On the one hand, with your first comment you are claiming that Christians should be praised for practicing what our Bible teaches. Then in the second comment you turn around and say that Christians are to be despised for thinking that they need to spread the news and try to convince Jews that Jesus was the Messiah and their religion is incomplete.

now lets bring context and understanding back in my post..

I said that christians should be praised for their piety in following the religion built on jesus....This reminds me of a something my friend told me about when he got a new pastor.

"The New pastor was up there he was preaching frivolently, and then he passed around the collection plates....He kept saying "Give graciously to the Lord" in a very enthusiastic way. So naturally the people did.. A few weeks down the road the pastor bought a brand new house in a very expensive neighborhood along with a brand new mercades benz 500SL... "

like I said those who follow christianity accordng to what jesus said should be praised for their piety...but there are a few bad apples...Pastors like that and missionaries..

As you can tell too many missionaries from "jews for jesus" have been knocking at my door...

Here's the thing, eli - our Bible commands us to "go and make disciples of all nations". "All nations" includes the Jews. When we try to convince you that Jesus was the Messiah and that your religion is incomplete, it's because we are "practicing according to our Bible".


Let me ask you this how can you convince a people of your message who had the message of "G-d's supremacy" long before you knew it existed? exactly! We have the message already, hence my reasoning for Christainity is not for Jews?

We got the message already: "G-d is the King of this Universe and we are His subjects to follow what He tells us to do."

Christianity should be more concerned with the Pagans of the world than the Jews who already know the message of G-d's supremacy,

The only thing Christianity and Judaism will majorly disagree over are the observance of G-d's Mitzvot and whether or not jesus is the messiah or not....

So what is it, eli? Are Christians to be praised for following their Bible on this issue? Or are they to be despised for it? Your inconsistency lies in the fact that you are claiming both.

see above my position is explained....My inconsistancey just fades away....

[dizzle]

Your inconsistency simply thickened. You are wanting to have your cake and eat it too. Christianity at its heart makes claims about ALL of mankind. If it is false for one group of people, it is false for all. There is no middle ground. The Christianity that you "accept" is not Christianity at all, thus my statement to you that you presume to define another faith. You are erecting your own version of it and saying you have no problem with that. But that is not Christianity. If it is true for me, then it is true for you. That is exactly what Christanity teaches, and I find your equivocation offensive in that regard. It is not being forthright with reality.

Here is the heart of it Eli to you, the Jew. You have rejected God's Messiah and HIs provision for sin. God will reject those who do so if you die in that state. He would that you would not reject what He has done for you. That is what Christianity teaches. There may be some disagreements on the fate of those who have not heard, are mentally incompetent, etc - but there is no question about outright rejection once known. This is incompatible with everythign you have said. You have mmischaracterized the Christian message - which message makes its claim that it is the fulfillment of Judaism - thus making your statement even more inane to reality, and not being fair to Christianity in your attempts to be "tolerant." It is nonsensical and foolish.

[Menachem]

Your inconsistency simply thickened, and personally it is frankly annoying. You are wanting to have your cake and eat it too. Christianity at its heart makes claims about ALL of mankind. If it is false for one group of people, it is false for all. There is no middle ground. The Christianity that you "accept" is not Christianity at all, thus my statement to you that you presume to define another faith. You are erecting your own version of it and saying you have no problem with that. But that is not Christianity. If it is true for me, then it is true for you. That is exactly what Christanity teaches, and I find your equivocation offensive in that regard. It is not being forthright with reality.

Glad to be at your annoyance..lol..

Islam also makes that claim....your point being...

If the christaintiy that jesus preached is not christainty what is; the Pauline version, Roman Catholicism, Greek orthodox, Protestantism, reformed, Pentecostal, Chiurch of Christ, Nazarines, Church of G-d, Episcopilian.....etc...which definition is right...they all agree that what jesus said was correct and that his words should be practiced.. And if they practice his words then they should be praised for it..

But if they want to act like the baptist minister in my story and be in it for the money and not the service to jesus then a whole new problem arises...


Here is the heart of it Eli to you, the Jew. You have rejected God's Messiah and HIs provision for sin. God will reject those who do so if you die in that state. He would that you would not reject what He has done for you. That is what Christianity teaches. There may be some disagreements on the fate of those who have not heard, are mentally incompetent, etc - but there is no question about outright rejection once known. This is incompatible with everythign you have said. You have mmischaracterized the Christian message - which message makes its claim that it is the fulfillment of Judaism - thus making your statement even more inane to reality, and not being fair to Christianity in your attempts to be "tolerant." It is nonsensical and foolish.

Have you ever heard of the Noachide covenant...it is a valid covenant through Noah for rightous Gentiles and is biblically based and accepted as valid by Jews.

We Jews dont practice it(it isnt for Jews) but it is valid for gentiles....hmmm...there is a biblically based middle ground and christianity seems to fall right in that category. As a covenant for Gentiles, the same with Islam...Both are valid paths, but both are not for Jews we have a path(Judaism)...


Jezz, you stated my problem with Eli's comment well. Christianity does not leave open the door for Eli's position. It did not intend to.

That is where Christianity and Judaism differ. Judaism leaves it open to do that but christianity doesnt...an agreeance to disagree would be in order since we will never agree on this issue, you see it as one thing I see another and so on.....

Seeing as how we will never see the other side of the hill(yours and mine) on this subject, I would respectfully like to request that we agree to disagree on things and leave it at that....

Eli, BTW, I did notmean I was literally a boxer, but I meant on debate forums. And yes I do think you are inconsistent, hopefully I can get some time to put together a post to show why. I have been sick pretty bad all week.

I know, I was saying I was a literal boxer and I am also a boxer in the same respects you are...Hope you get well soon

[dizzle]

See Eli you have done exactly as I have said. You have presumed to define another religion and said you will accept your version (which is incorrect to begin with). That is really a lot of chutzpah and not being forthright with the subject and no one is served by that. And more later. I will not agree to disagree if you are going to continue to pander inanities about the real issue. As long as that is being said I am going to challenge it because this is not a periphy issue which I can be silent on. It is a matter of eternal importance, and you are playing a very unfair bait and switch, and no, I will not, can not, let that slide. More to deal with the specifics of your post when I can get a chance.

But here is one honking problem

And if they practice his words then they should be praised for it.. Really Eli? Including these:

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This was written by a Jew for Jews spoken by a Jew.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Spoken to Jews condemning them for not believing Christ as Messiah.

Do I really need to go on? Your post is so inconsistent as to be meaningless.

Do I really need to show you how Christ said He came for the Jews? Do I raeally need to quote the Great Commission? Do I really need to quote Christ's condemnation of the nation of Israel that existed back then for rejecting Him?

[dizzle]

I added to the above since Eli is apparently reading email notifications

[Menachem]

See Eli you have done exactly as I have said. You have presumed to define another religion and said you will accept your version (which is incorrect to begin with). That is really a lot of chutzpah and not being forthright with the subject and no one is served by that. And more later. I will not agree to disagree if you are going to continue to pander inanities about the real issue. As long as that is being said I am going to challenge it. This is no small matter, and you are playing a very unfair bait and switch, and no, I will not let that slide. More to deal with the specifics of your post when I can get a chance.

thats fine and I will defend my position even more heavily then since that is what you want.... No Small matter to you but to me it is insignificant.

Chutzpah is my middle name

also to include this....Since you say I am defining my own version of christianity by saying " by what jesus said" and you are telling me that isnt so by saying "now your defining your verion of christianity(which is incorrect to begin with)" This seriously begs the question:

If jesus' words are not the basis of christianity then what is????

If Christianity is based on his words and not following them then it is not christianity since it rejects the very core teachings that make up the religion... So should I now say Paulism or something else instead of Christianity???

I agreed to drop an unresolvable issue...but if you want to continue to drag it out that is fine with me...I'm Game!

But here is one honking problem


[/b]Really Eli? Including these:

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This was written by a Jew for Jews spoken by a Jew.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Spoken to Jews condemning them for not believing Christ as Messiah.

Do I really need to go on? Your post is so inconsistent as to be meaningless.

Shouldnt you have said "jesus as messiah" saying "christ as messiah" is the same as saying "messiah as messiah" and implys that everyone accepts that premise as true.

Plus jesus dint fulfill the messianic prophecies associated with the messiah. The "Proof Texts" pointed out in the "messianic prophecies thread" sure dont stand for very long after examination....


If you feel so convicted to follow them then that is fine, but dont expect me or any other observant Jew to follow them. As I have said all along "Christianity is not for Jews, it is for Gentiles"

Spoken by an apostate Jew written for Gentiles... Of course my argument would be this:

Psalms 145:18. The Lord is near to all those who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth

Isaiah 45:21. Declare, and bring them near; yes, let them take counsel together; Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Did not I Hashem? And there is no other G-d beside me; a just G-d and a savior; there is none beside me.
22. Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am G-d, and there is no one else.

And if you want the "son of G-d" bit here try Exodus 4:22 " And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn;


Why should I believe contradicting statements to what Tanakh teaches(As I have said "Christianity is not for Jews, it is for Gentiles")... This message seems to be directed more to a gentile audience than a Jewish audience anyway as a Moral of the story sumation using a "dialogue" with the Jews as an example...." believe in this Jewish man you gentiles, he's the "son of G-d" and those of you who do not believe will be sent to a terrible place after you die."


This was written by an "apostate jew(a person who chose to leave Traditional Judaism)" by his wording and philosophy he is more hellenized than a woman named Hellen. His words have no more impact on Judaism than the words of Muhammed do..

There is a difference between what a Jew who follows Judaism says and what an Apostate says..
A Jew who follows Judaism can speak for Judaism an Apostate will speak something else and put a Jewish style spin on things...


As for my "inconsistancies" I still dont see them. All I see are your "percieved inconsistancies" which only travel as far as the wall in front of them allows them to travel.

[Menachem]

I added to the above since Eli is apparently reading email notifications

Not reading email notification, just keeping a sharp eye on things...

[dizzle]

You again are not dealing with the issue at hand. Christianity as its very premise makes absolute truth claims. They are not limited to any group, and in fact its primary target was ethnic Jews. You cannot claim that it is "true" for one group and not for another for that makes it true for NO ONE. It is ONLY true if it is true for EVERYONE - that is the nature of the thing itself. You have, and continued to, fail to grasp that.


also to include this....Since you say I am defining my own version of christianity by saying " by what jesus said" and you are telling me that isnt so by saying "now your defining your verion of christianity(which is incorrect to begin with)" This seriously begs the question:

If jesus' words are not the basis of christianity then what is????
You are misrepresentating my words. You do not have the right to say that Paul's teaching are not part of the Christian faith but even granting that false premise for the sake of argument I quoted back at you Jesus' own teaching which proves that you cannot consistently affirm the teaching of Jesus for Gentiles for, firstly, Jesus' word were directed to Jews for Jews to believe and second, they make claim to be Messiah and to demand allegiance. Your doublespeak does not fly.


If Christianity is based on his words and not following them then it is not christianity since it rejects the very core teachings that make up the religion... So should I now say Paulism or something else instead of Christianity???
Dealt with above. The issue is nowhere as complicated as you wish to make it, but it demands that you have the chutzpah that you claim is your middle name to take the stand that you must - if Christianity is not true for Jews, it is not true for Gentiles either. Christianitly itself allows no other option and you are being intellectually dishonest to its claims not to recognize that.


I agreed to drop an unresolvable issue...but if you want to continue to drag it out that is fine with me...I'm Game!
The funny thing is that you are "game" to soemthing that was not the issue. I was not trying to convince you at this poitn of the truth of Christianity but to be honest with the truth claims it makes for itselof which you have failed to do.



Shouldnt you have said "jesus as messiah" saying "christ as messiah" is the same as saying "messiah as messiah" and implys that everyone accepts that premise as true.
It would have been nice if you dealt with the verses rather than pick nits. Yes, that was sloppy wording on my part by I suspect you knew exactly waht I was saying and chose to avoid it.


Plus jesus dint fulfill the messianic prophecies associated with the messiah. The "Proof Texts" pointed out in the "messianic prophecies thread" sure dont stand for very long after examination....

Incorrect, but irrelevant to the point I have been making, only insofar as it proves the point I have been making. Christianity is founded on those claims. If those claims are false it is false for EVERYONE.


If you feel so convicted to follow them then that is fine, but dont expect me or any other observant Jew to follow them. As I have said all along "Christianity is not for Jews, it is for Gentiles"
Dismantled above. Unless you think so lowly of nonJews that it is okay for them to follow a lie. That is the logical and arrogant conclusion of what you are saying.


Spoken by an apostate Jew written for Gentiles... Of course my argument would be this:

Psalms 145:18. The Lord is near to all those who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth

Isaiah 45:21. Declare, and bring them near; yes, let them take counsel together; Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Did not I Hashem? And there is no other G-d beside me; a just G-d and a savior; there is none beside me.
22. Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am G-d, and there is no one else.

And if you want the "son of G-d" bit here try Exodus 4:22 " And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn;


Why should I believe contradicting statements to what Tanakh teaches(As I have said "Christianity is not for Jews, it is for Gentiles")... This message seems to be directed more to a gentile audience than a Jewish audience anyway as a Moral of the story sumation using a "dialogue" with the Jews as an example....


This was written by an "apostate jew(a person who chose to leave Traditional Judaism)" by his wording and philosophy he is more hellenized than a woman named Hellen. His words have no more impact on Judaism than the words of Muhammed do..

There is a difference between what a Jew who follows Judaism says and what an Apostate says..
A Jew who follows Judaism can speak for Judaism an Apostate will speak something else and put a Jewish style spin on things...


As for my "inconsistancies" I still dont see them. All I see are your "percieved inconsistancies" which only travel as far as the wall in front of them allows them to travel.
Alll of that above was irrelevant to my point except to prove that you cannot say that such falsities are true for nonJews. They are either true or they are false. There is no nonsensical middle ground. Even by your own claimed justification of allowing Christianity by the Noahide commandments falls flat for Christians worship Christ as God Himself. If He is not God, then that breaks the commandment of Idolatry and blasphemy.

There is no middle ground Eli. Get the chutzpah you claim and be consistent. I have no problem saying your religion is false. It denies the Author of Life and Saviour of all Men.

[Menachem]

You again are not dealing with the issue at hand. Christianity as its very premise makes absolute truth claims. They are not limited to any group, and in fact its primary target was ethnic Jews. You cannot claim that it is "true" for one group and not for another for that makes it true for NO ONE. It is ONLY true if it is true for EVERYONE - that is the nature of the thing itself. You have, and continued to, fail to grasp that.

Actually I have and will continue to deal with the issue....one thing you cant get psat is that christainity and Judaism have two totally different opinions about this..... actually you can if they both carry the same essential message but differ over certain details....the overall message is true but the religion itself is not for Jew we have our own religion. Christaintiy is a legitimate and valid path to G-d. But it is not the Jewish path....

See how we are not getting anywhere "Christianity says....no Judaism says....."


You are misrepresentating my words. You do not have the right to say that Paul's teaching are not part of the Christian faith but even granting that false premise for the sake of argument I quoted back at you Jesus' own teaching which proves that you cannot consistently affirm the teaching of Jesus for Gentiles for, firstly, Jesus' word were directed to Jews for Jews to believe and second, they make claim to be Messiah and to demand allegiance. Your doublespeak does not fly.

I never double spoke for one.....Two you, first, were saying following jesus teachings were incorrect, and I never said Paul's teachings were not part of the christianity you are putting more words in my mouth:

If Christianity is based on his words and not following them then it is not christianity since it rejects the very core teachings that make up the religion... So should I now say Paulism or something else instead of Christianity???

No where in there do I say " Paul's words were not apart of christianity." That was an utter lie and false claim..Who is misrepresenting who's words here???

And Jews need the message of Jesus when??? We have and had the message already..."G-d is supreme,follow G-d....etc.." jesus was sucessful at bringing the truth of Judaism to the Pagan Gentile world.... Hence if it comes from a true source(Judaism) it must be true in the way that it was presented to heavily Pagan Gentiles.

Your continued substitution of my views to be in line of the christain views doesnt cut it....

Dealt with above. The issue is nowhere as complicated as you wish to make it, but it demands that you have the chutzpah that you claim is your middle name to take the stand that you must - if Christianity is not true for Jews, it is not true for Gentiles either. Christianitly itself allows no other option and you are being intellectually dishonest to its claims not to recognize that.

Dealt with above also....I never made it complicated in the first place...I said let's agree to disagree and leave it at that, but no, you wanted to ag it on...So I said ok lets do it...your christainity issue is dealt with above


The funny thing is that you are "game" to soemthing that was not the issue. I was not trying to convince you at this poitn of the truth of Christianity but to be honest with the truth claims it makes for itselof which you have failed to do.

Actually it is the issue because you have made it the issue....we could have stopped before hand but no you wanted to go on, and on, and on, and on.. And I have never said that christainity was not a true religion I simply said "it was not for Jews"


It would have been nice if you dealt with the verses rather than pick nits. Yes, that was sloppy wording on my part by I suspect you knew exactly waht I was saying and chose to avoid it.

Did I not quote verses against your verses?? Oh thats right you dismissed them since they bring the ones you posted down from their pedestal... Hey Nit picking is the sign I look at everything...


Incorrect, but irrelevant to the point I have been making, only insofar as it proves the point I have been making. Christianity is founded on those claims. If those claims are false it is false for EVERYONE.

Actually it was quite relivent to your verses posted and to my point against yours. Gee then if Judaism is true and holds these claims what does that make christianity also.....True?

you kill your own argument


[/b]Dismantled above. Unless you think so lowly of nonJews that it is okay for them to follow a lie. That is the logical and arrogant conclusion of what you are saying.

gee did I say anything in disrespect of nonJews...no I didnt....This is an utter lie and false claim. I simply said: "If you want to follow them thats fine, but dont expect me to follow them as well"



Alll of that above was irrelevant to my point except to prove that you cannot say that such falsities are true for nonJews. They are either true or they are false. There is no nonsensical middle ground. Even by your own claimed justification of allowing Christianity by the Noahide commandments falls flat for Christians worship Christ as God Himself. If He is not God, then that breaks the commandment of Idolatry and blasphemy.

actually you already disproved your own arguement see above here ill quote it for you along with my response:

Incorrect, but irrelevant to the point I have been making, only insofar as it proves the point I have been making. Christianity is founded on those claims. If those claims are false it is false for EVERYONE

this based on my quotation of the Psalms here is my response:

Actually it was quite relivent to your verses posted and to my point against yours. Gee then if Judaism is true and holds these claims what does that make christianity also.....True?

you kill your own argument

you not only bolstered my claim but made it look even better...all the while killing your argument on the matter by saying you are basing christianity on something in Jewish scripture...


There is no middle ground Eli. Get the chutzpah you claim and be consistent. I have no problem saying your religion is false. It denies the Author of Life and Saviour of all Men.


You made my claim even stronger above....My Chutzpah is right here and ready to go....

[dizzle]

Still not frankly dealing with the issue Eli.




Actually I have and will continue to deal with the issue....one thing you cant get psat is that christainity and Judaism have two totally different opinions about this.....

This is not a matter of “opinon” but honestly assessing what each religion teaches. Christianity teaches that it is true for everyone – and by its very premise, if it is not true for any one group, especially the group that was its original intended audience, it is not true for anyone. This is not a matter of opinion – it is a matter of judging a religion’s claims upon what it actually claims. Not what you think about the truth value of the claim, but the truth claims itself.



actually you can if they both carry the same essential message but differ over certain details...

They do not carry the same essential message Eli. Not at all. They are inreconcilably in conflict. It is not a matter of details.



.the overall message is true….

Eli the overall message is that NO ONE CAN REJECT CHRIST and not be said to be rejecting God. IF THAT message is true, it is true for everyone. Why can you not come to grips with what Christianity actually teaches?





but the religion itself is not for Jew we have our own religion. Christaintiy is a legitimate and valid path to G-d. But it is not the Jewish path....

You are contradicting your own ideals. Christians worship Jesus as God. God in the Noahide commandments denounces idolatry and blasphemy. Christians teach that Jesus is the only way to God. This is incompatible at its very core to what you believe. There is NO WAY for both to be true.


I never double spoke for one.....Two you, first, were saying following jesus teachings were incorrect, and I never said Paul's teachings were not part of the christianity you are putting more words in my mouth:

First – “more” implies that I have done so before, which I have not. Second it is your statements like this:




like I said those who follow christianity accordng to what jesus said should be praised for their piety.

That led to that statement. You seemed to be expressly excising what Paul said. If that is not what you meant, that is fine, but you seemed to reinforce it with your choice of the phrase “the Pauline version” – which appears again to say that you think Paul is in contradiction to Christ. That is however besides the point. I never said following Jesus’ teachings was incorrect – please stop misrepresenting me once I corrected you.



No where in there do I say " Paul's words were not apart of christianity." That was an utter lie and false claim..Who is misrepresenting who's words here???

See above. And I suggest you go easy on claims of lying.

And Jews need the message of Jesus when??? We have and had the message already..."G-d is supreme,follow G-d....etc.." jesus was sucessful at bringing the truth of Judaism to the Pagan Gentile world.... Hence if it comes from a true source(Judaism) it must be true in the way that it was presented to heavily Pagan Gentiles.

You again have utterly missed the point. Jesus taught that Jews need His teaching and to accept Him as Messiah. Therefore we Christians teach that, following the words of Jesus, which you said were beautiful and right. However, they cannot be since what Jesus taught is diametrically opposed to what you believe.



Actually it is the issue because you have made it the issue....we could have stopped before hand but no you wanted to go on, and on, and on, and on.. And I have never said that christainity was not a true religion I simply said "it was not for Jews"

But Christianity claims to be for everybody therefore it must be false. Why don’t you have the guts to say so? And Christianity, namely Jesus Christ, said He came primarily for the Jews.

Did I not quote verses against your verses?? Oh thats right you dismissed them since they bring the ones you posted down from their pedestal... Hey Nit picking is the sign I look at everything...

Eli you once again have missed the point. My point was not to prove the truth claims of the verses, why can you not get that point? My point was for you to recognize what the truth claims WERE. You are not doing that. The truth claims of what Jesus said must force you to denounce Him as an apostate maker. You have no other choice. He did not intend to leave you any other choice.



gee did I say anything in disrespect of nonJews...no I didnt....This is an utter lie and false claim. I simply said: "If you want to follow them thats fine, but dont expect me to follow them as well"

You had better go easy on those charges of lying. That is not permitted here. Here is my point again, it was polemic. You assert that all the claims of Christ and Christianity vis a vis the OT are false. But that is the foundation of Christianity, thus Christianity is based on utter falsehoods, yet you say that is just peachy for Gentiles. Don’t we deserve to believe something that is true? It is patronizing to say that this made-up farce is fine for us.



You have yet to deal with that point.



Here is the ultimate truth claim of Christianity Eli, and it is written by a Jew.



Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.



You cannot get away with the charade that Christianity is true for Gentiles when you deny every foundation of Christianity in reality. Truth is not relativistic Eli. It is either true or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

[Goose]

Love the Hebrew characters... Where did you take them (I would like to install them on my computer)...
If you can see them, then they're already on your computer.

[dizzle]

Goose is it our BB Hebrew formating?

testing

[dizzle]

No I guess not... but there is a sticky thread in the Biblical languages department on makingthe Hebrew fonts.

[Menachem]

Still not frankly dealing with the issue Eli.

why? Are you avoiding it??





This is not a matter of “opinon” but honestly assessing what each religion teaches. Christianity teaches that it is true for everyone – and by its very premise, if it is not true for any one group, especially the group that was its original intended audience, it is not true for anyone. This is not a matter of opinion – it is a matter of judging a religion’s claims upon what it actually claims. Not what you think about the truth value of the claim, but the truth claims itself.

again a matter of opinion, you teach it is for everyone, Jews say it is for others. Is it that hard to put two and two together.

And you judge form the christian point of view while I take the Jewish point of View of it...The Hopeless deadlock...



They do not carry the same essential message Eli. Not at all. They are inreconcilably in conflict. It is not a matter of details.

Ok so you are saying that jesus never emphasized worshipping G-d. Never once asked that you worship G-d as the one true G-d...OY! never once said that one of the most important things you can do is think this "hear O Israel, The LORD is your G-d, the LORD is one?" or "Love the LORD you G-d with all your heart?" Funny Judaism seems to have that same creed and it happens to be the most important....



Eli the overall message is that NO ONE CAN REJECT CHRIST and not be said to be rejecting God. IF THAT message is true, it is true for everyone. Why can you not come to grips with what Christianity actually teaches?

I beg to differ:

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

Jesus did teach that, which Judaism also teaches...

and he stressed that over and over along with love your neighbor. two concepts in line with Judaism.



You are contradicting your own ideals. Christians worship Jesus as God. God in the Noahide commandments denounces idolatry and blasphemy. Christians teach that Jesus is the only way to God. This is incompatible at its very core to what you believe. There is NO WAY for both to be true.

Christians have denied commiting idolatry for many thousands of years, now you come along and say they do? Did I not say that there are disagreements over certain details?? I can quote that I did say that we dont agree on everything but the essential message is basically the same and I quote:

The only thing Christianity and Judaism will majorly disagree over are the observance of G-d's Mitzvot and whether or not jesus is the messiah or not....

The notion of One G-d, all powerful, Loves us... I can agree with. Just certain details separate the two religions



First – “more” implies that I have done so before, which I have not. Second it is your statements like this:


like I said those who follow christianity according to what jesus said should be praised for their piety.


That led to that statement. You seemed to be expressly excising what Paul said. If that is not what you meant, that is fine, but you seemed to reinforce it with your choice of the phrase “the Pauline version” – which appears again to say that you think Paul is in contradiction to Christ. That is however besides the point. I never said following Jesus’ teachings was incorrect – please stop misrepresenting me once I corrected you.

I used the term "Pauline version" to separate two distinctive thought in the GNT those of jesus and those of Paul's..

I got the feeling you were saying that it was incorrect from a staement you made earlier...my bad I apologize for the misrepresentation...

See above. And I suggest you go easy on claims of lying.

I will go easy on the claims of lying....see above...


You again have utterly missed the point. Jesus taught that Jews need His teaching and to accept Him as Messiah. Therefore we Christians teach that, following the words of Jesus, which you said were beautiful and right. However, they cannot be since what Jesus taught is diametrically opposed to what you believe.

Some points were opposite others werent.. The teaching of Love the LORD your G-d with all your heart ....I agree with that....Hear O Israel the LORD is your G-d the LORD is one....I agree with that too.......Love your neighbor as yourself.....I can agree with that....

Where did Jesus say " you need my teachings!" It is not the teachings entirely that I disagree with it is the deification and the claims of messiahship that came afterward...




But Christianity claims to be for everybody therefore it must be false. Why don’t you have the guts to say so? And Christianity, namely Jesus Christ, said He came primarily for the Jews.

You are argueing what christainity claims while I am arguing What Judaism claims....

What is it going to take to say "I am not a christain, I dont share that view" we can argue semantics and interpretation but we will still get nowhere as we are doing here....



Eli you once again have missed the point. My point was not to prove the truth claims of the verses, why can you not get that point? My point was for you to recognize what the truth claims WERE. You are not doing that. The truth claims of what Jesus said must force you to denounce Him as an apostate maker. You have no other choice. He did not intend to leave you any other choice.

actually those verses were made for a different point about needing jesus to get to G-d and the claim that jesus is G-d.

And What I am saying is that Judaism is not the same as Christianity perspective wise. You are trying to argue a Christian perspective to a Jew who has a different perspective than you.

I have made this statement already once: " Judaism leaves the door open to say all other paths are valid paths to G-d" and you say "Christianity doesnt." Can you see the difference of opinion here!


You had better go easy on those charges of lying. That is not permitted here. Here is my point again, it was polemic. You assert that all the claims of Christ and Christianity vis a vis the OT are false. But that is the foundation of Christianity, thus Christianity is based on utter falsehoods, yet you say that is just peachy for Gentiles. Don’t we deserve to believe something that is true? It is patronizing to say that this made-up farce is fine for us.

I got your message the first time....claims of Lying will be gone easily...

I submitted that The message was proveyed to the gentile in the way that they would be accepting of it. which is fine....when christians come to provey the message to Jews theres a problem, we have this message already and a slightly different interpretation of it.. Christianity did what was necessary to convert the Gentiles of the world from paganism. If it brings these people from polytheism to knowing the one true G-d is supreme then it must be true...in the fashion of how it was proveyed.. Just as Islam did the arabs who were polytheistic and they went to recognize One G-d.. More power to them and their beliefs....Just dont bother me about it I already believe in one G-d and know that when I die I will be going to meet G-d as ecclesiastes put it:

"The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to G-d who gave it" Ecclesiastes 12:7


You have yet to deal with that point.

I just did



Here is the ultimate truth claim of Christianity Eli, and it is written by a Jew.



Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.



You cannot get away with the charade that Christianity is true for Gentiles when you deny every foundation of Christianity in reality. Truth is not relativistic Eli. It is either true or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.


really that was different from what jesus said was the greatest commandment and a central advocation in his teachings:

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Truth is not relavistic you say...tell me "Is there one G-d?"

Judaism says there is, Islam says there is.

What does christianity say?

Every Christian I know says there is one G-d.

What sayeth you?

[Orion]

Christians teach that Jesus is the only way to God.

Perhaps this is the case within your particular denomination. However, I suggest to you that this view is far from universal within mainstream Christianity. Then again, perhaps you're of the opinion that the salvation brought about by Jesus' death was given to all mankind, unconditionally, and that Jews and Hindus are saved regardless of whether or not they accept Jesus.

That issue aside, I think it's important to ask whether the assertion that Jesus is the only way to God is a valid one, especially if it implies that one must accept Jesus in order to be saved. And the more you consider the implications, the more troubling the assertion becomes. Is a person who lives a moral, ethical, charitable life but who happens not to accept Jesus bound for the pit? What of someone who makes an honest effort to embrace Christian doctrine but who eventually concludes that he cannot, in good conscience, do so?

I'm particularly fond of this bit of Hindu scripture...

Like the bee, gathering honey from different flowers, the wise man accepts the essence of different scriptures and sees only the good in all religions.

[dizzle]

Eli I really wish you would engage the argument. The New Testament makes certain claims including the Messiahship and deity of Christ and that the fulfillment of the OT is found in Christ. Do you believe that it is true for Gentiles that Jesus is truly and actually God? Is Jesus God? He cannot ontologically be God just for some Eli. He either is God or He is not God. This is not complicated. Either He fulfilled the OT or He did not. It cannot be that it is true He fulfilled the OT for Gentiles and not for Jews. This is nonsensical. The claims of Christianity are not of the sort that can be true for some and not true for all.



This is not a matter of point of view. I understand from your point of view that you think there are many paths to God. Christianity denies that, so you must say that Christianity is wrong. Jesus claimed that Eli. Jesus claimed that Jews who rejected Him were condemned. You are making the fallacy of presupposition. You are not looking at the issue from the standpoint of the truth claims made, but from your evaluation of the truth claims made. I could claim I was God, Eli, and you would deny that I am, but that does not change the fact that I made that claim. Christianity claims it is the exclusive and only true faith for all.



Ok so you are saying that jesus never emphasized worshipping G-d. Never once asked that you worship G-d as the one true G-d...OY! never once said that one of the most important things you can do is think this "hear O Israel, The LORD is your G-d, the LORD is one?" or "Love the LORD you G-d with all your heart?" Funny Judaism seems to have that same creed and it happens to be the most important....

Eli do you really want to have a conversation or just try to score cheap debating points. That is completely inaccurate. Just because Christianity and Judaism share items, does not mean they are harmonious at their core. The core of Christianity is that we are fallen in sin and separated from God, and that only the sacrifice of Christ can reconcile us to God. So while of course Christianity teaches that you must love God – it teaches that you cannot love God if you reject Christ. That is the rub Eli.



Christians have denied commiting idolatry for many thousands of years, now you come along and say they do? Did I not say that there are disagreements over certain details??

Eli again that is cheap. Did I say that I thought we did? The FACT is that you are being unfaithful to what you believe if YOU don’t say that we do. We worship who you believe to be a mortal man like the rest of us as God. IF that is true, we are idolatrous blasphemers, and that is not tolerable or beautiful. Please do come to grips with the stark reality Eli.



The notion of One G-d, all powerful, Loves us... I can agree with. Just certain details separate the two religions

The devil’s in the details Eli. The detail of the fact that the NT is crystal clear that those who reject Christ are condemned.



Where did Jesus say " you need my teachings!" It is not the teachings entirely that I disagree with it is the deification and the claims of messiahship that came afterward...

Is the deification and messiahship claims wrong for Gentiles, or is that praiseworthy and beautiful? (I have no need for my point to argue with your incorrect statement, it is irrelevant)



And Jesus did in fact multiple times declare that one’s response to him determined one’s eternal destiny.





Truth is not relavistic you say...tell me "Is there one G-d?"

Yes. And Christianity teaches that you need Jesus or you have denied God. There is One God who exists eternally in three persons. Wow, doesn’t sound like we have the same God at all does it? Or is that just true for the Gentiles? That is nonsense Eli.



Truth is not relavistic Eli. Either Jesus is God or He is not. He either fulfilled the OT or He did not. It cannot be that those things are true for the Gentiles but not for the Jews. If they are false, they are false for everyone. If they are true, you desparately need Christ.



If they are false as you say, you should not be lauding it for it is rank idolatry, and a violation of the Noahide commandments. It is the worship of man as God.

[Timothy Leary]

Whatever, RI. Now you say the thread doesn't belong here?? I put it here b/c it was my intention to dialog with some Jewish people who could try to explain how Judaism differs from Satanism, and whether they think a comparison of the two religions as equally evil was valid. Sorry if that bothers you.

Well first of all, it's entirely absurd to me to "fight" against God....

[Timothy Leary]

One rejects Christ.... whereas the other rejects Christ. Hmmmm..... same result. With all due respect to the Jewish members of this board, from a Christian perspective the above is true. Doesn't mean they are the same thing. It means they have the same end result. IF Christianity is true... then yes, of course both belief systems are just as wrong, each in their own way.

As for yourself, I really don't care if you're offended by it. Absolute truth is what it is.

I agree RI (about the Christian perspective) - and through this you have proven something that very rarely is accepted among Christians - Messianic Judaism is *not* Judaism. It's beliefs are Christian, it's founders are Christian, and it's funded by Christians.

Just to show the opposite view, if we Counter-Missionaries are correct, then Christianity is Idoltary.

[dizzle]

I agree RI (about the Christian perspective) - and through this you have proven something that very rarely is accepted among Christians - Messianic Judaism is *not* Judaism. It's beliefs are Christian, it's founders are Christian, and it's funded by Christians. That begs the question though, but I can understand from your perspective they are not Jewish. From mine (and mine is different from RI) they and all Christians are "Jewish." Jesus did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


Just to show the opposite view, if we Counter-Missionaries are correct, then Christianity is Idoltary. Exactly. I appreciate honest assessments. Now, is idolatry okay for Gentiles? Is it beautiful? Is it something to be praised? Is peity to idolatry a good thing?

Now some may wonder why I would not want to keep up the illusion that the differences are minor. Because one, it is not true, and second, it leads to apathy. The stark contrast is exactly what Christ intended, so that the claims are seriously considered for He makes serious claims. One cannot reject them simply because "one has their own way" - Jesus never allowed that reaction to Him.

Now Yosiah, will you take the next logical step. If Christianity IS true (and I know you don't believe it is) then it is true for everyone. That is the only logical conclusion.

[Timothy Leary]

1) I never said christianity was false. I said that jesus would be hard to prove to observant Jews as the messiah since we know that he was "not the Jewish messiah".. That much is evident in the "messianic prophecies" thread!!

Er.... Eli, you just contradicted yourself.

[Timothy Leary]

You need to use the "post a reply" button to see the smilie bar, and once you learn the smilie codes you won't need that. For instance that one I used above is : eek : without the spaces between the colons. For custom smilies like :monster: see this thread

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21020

DDW, when is the advanced editing options going to be working in firefox?

[dizzle]

Exactly Yosiah.

[Timothy Leary]

Actually there is no Satan, a Pagan invention and multiple ways to salvation...

It all depends on what you mean by 'Satan'. Technically, in Hebrew, the word can refer to any adversary. IIRC, the word is used to describe David's physical enemies in the 'Nach.

[Timothy Leary]

Love the Hebrew characters... Where did you take them (I would like to install them on my computer)...

PM me. I'll help you set up Hebrew support.

[Timothy Leary]

If you can see them, then they're already on your computer.

Yes and No. SOmetimes without fulls support they'll read right to left instead of left to right. So שלום would be םולש. Installing full support allows you to type in Hebrew, and fixes that possible problem.

[Timothy Leary]

That begs the question though, but I can understand from your perspective they are not Jewish. From mine (and mine is different from RI) they and all Christians are "Jewish." Jesus did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but are you then claiming you are now a Jew?

Now, is idolatry okay for Gentiles? Is it beautiful? Is it something to be praised? Is peity to idolatry a good thing?

Desirable? No.

Biblically, there is nothing to say that a non-jew must not be engaged in idoltary until the end of days. There is no conflict unless the adherants of such beliefs try to convert Jews.

Now some may wonder why I would not want to keep up the illusion that the differences are minor. Because one, it is not true, and second, it leads to apathy. The stark contrast is exactly what Christ intended, so that the claims are seriously considered for He makes serious claims. One cannot reject them simply because "one has their own way" - Jesus never allowed that reaction to Him.

Yes and No. From an outsider's perspective, the differences are minor. IMO, other than the issue of worshipping Jesus as God, the differences are relatively minor. If that issue were not there, I think it would be relatively easy for the two religous POV's to come together.

Now Yosiah, will you take the next logical step. If Christianity IS true (and I know you don't believe it is) then it is true for everyone. That is the only logical conclusion.

Yes, that would be correct.

[dizzle]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but are you then claiming you are now a Jew?

Without the NT background, you will misunderstand me. The NT teaches that all who belong to Christ are grafted into the Olive Tree through adoption. So genetically, no. Spiritually, yes. The Church is the Israel of God. In that sense absolutely.


Desirable? No.

Biblically, there is nothing to say that a non-jew must not be engaged in idoltary until the end of days. There is no conflict unless the adherants of such beliefs try to convert Jews.
What about the noahide commandments? And I think I would dispute this anyways, that God condemned idolatry in all people, it is an abomination for all.




Yes and No. From an outsider's perspective, the differences are minor. IMO, other than the issue of worshipping Jesus as God, the differences are relatively minor. If that issue were not there, I think it would be relatively easy for the two religous POV's to come together.
No I would say the difference are quite greater. The claims of Christ as being the only atonement for sin and His resurrection and current reign as soveiregn etc. The differences are deeply and profoundly different.



Yes, that would be correct.
Thank you. Despite our disagreements above we agree on the things that to me are basic logic. I appreciate your consistency.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Eli the overall message is that NO ONE CAN REJECT CHRIST and not be said to be rejecting God. IF THAT message is true, it is true for everyone. Why can you not come to grips with what Christianity actually teaches? I have seen Christians who disagree with that statement. There seems to be a great deal of variation which different forms of Christainity teaches on that subject. Not all forms of christianity is that intolerant and rigid.





You are contradicting your own ideals. Christians worship Jesus as God. God in the Noahide commandments denounces idolatry and blasphemy. Christians teach that Jesus is the only way to God. This is incompatible at its very core to what you believe. There is NO WAY for both to be true.

Now, one interpretion that I have heard from a devote Catholic is that
Jesus was the gateway and the key, but belief that Jesus is God might not
be needed to use that gate. So, there are many different interpretations of that one point also.






That led to that statement. You seemed to be expressly excising what Paul said. If that is not what you meant, that is fine, but you seemed to reinforce it with your choice of the phrase “the Pauline version” – which appears again to say that you think Paul is in contradiction to Christ. That is however besides the point. I never said following Jesus’ teachings was incorrect – please stop misrepresenting me once I corrected you.
Well, in my opinion, it seems that statements from Paul are quoted much more the actual words of Jesus. There are a number of concepts that are
mentioned by Paul that seem essential to the Christian religion that are never mentioned by Jesus. Between he and John, the entire flavor of what
was taught is changed.





See above. And I suggest you go easy on claims of lying.



You again have utterly missed the point. Jesus taught that Jews need His teaching and to accept Him as Messiah. Therefore we Christians teach that, following the words of Jesus, which you said were beautiful and right. However, they cannot be since what Jesus taught is diametrically opposed to what you believe.
Well, it's like this. You believe it, that is because you are Christian. However, the Jewish people would not be Jewish if they accepted
the concept of God made Flesh, that is why they are not Christian.

It appears to me that what JESUS taught is not so much diametrically
opposed to Judiasm (it is very similar to the Hillel verison of Pharisee Judaism), but rather what is taught ABOUT Jesus by Paul, John and
the Synoptic Gospels that are diametrically opposed to Judaism.



<snip>

Eli you once again have missed the point. My point was not to prove the truth claims of the verses, why can you not get that point? My point was for you to recognize what the truth claims WERE. You are not doing that. The truth claims of what Jesus said must force you to denounce Him as an apostate maker. You have no other choice. He did not intend to leave you any other choice.
Actually, it is not so much the claims that are attributed to Jesus, but rather the claims that are claims by John , Paul and the synoptic gospels.. which were NOT written within a generation of the life of Jesus.


You had better go easy on those charges of lying. That is not permitted here. Here is my point again, it was polemic. You assert that all the claims of Christ and Christianity vis a vis the OT are false. But that is the foundation of Christianity, thus Christianity is based on utter falsehoods, yet you say that is just peachy for Gentiles. Don’t we deserve to believe something that is true? It is patronizing to say that this made-up farce is fine for us.

Well, turn about is fair play. You see, by saying not accepting Jesus as the son of God, and god is showing falsehood. That is what makes you are christian. The Jewish religion disagrees, and they is why they are not Christian.


You have yet to deal with that point.



Here is the ultimate truth claim of Christianity Eli, and it is written by a Jew.

Was it?? It seems that many of the gospels are pseudographical works.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

well, lets look at an competing verse in the New Testiment

Who is not against you is for you.



You cannot get away with the charade that Christianity is true for Gentiles when you deny every foundation of Christianity in reality. Truth is not relativistic Eli. It is either true or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.
Can you prove that there is an 'absolute truth'. Until you can prove that, then yes, you can have it both ways.

[Jezz]

Rather than answer you point-by-point and lose the thrust of the argument in the crossfire, I am going to directly address the central issue here:
I said that christians should be praised for their piety in following the religion built on jesus....This reminds me of a something my friend told me about when he got a new pastor.

like I said those who follow christianity accordng to what jesus said should be praised for their piety...but there are a few bad apples...Pastors like that and missionaries..

As you can tell too many missionaries from "jews for jesus" have been knocking at my door...
Ok eli, here's the thing:

1. Do you acknowledge that Jesus said "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19)?

2. The "Jews for Jesus" missionaries, in approaching you to bring you the good news, are following Jesus' command. So does this missionary activity mean that:
a. They are "to be praised for their piety in following their religion built on Jesus"?, or
b. They "bad apples"?

[Orion]

I understand from your point of view that you think there are many paths to God. Christianity denies that...

No, it does not.

Jesus claimed that Eli. Jesus claimed that Jews who rejected Him were condemned.

There are a considerable number of biblical scholars who are attempting to determine what Jesus actually said.

Christianity claims it is the exclusive and only true faith for all.

You continue to repeat this incorrect assertion. I can assure you that you do not speak for all of Christianity. You certainly do not speak for a considerable number of Roman Catholics, Episcopalians or Lutherans in positions of authority.

So while of course Christianity teaches that you must love God ? it teaches that you cannot love God if you reject Christ.

No, it does not.

The devil?s in the details Eli. The detail of the fact that the NT is crystal clear that those who reject Christ are condemned.

The NT also states that Jesus cast out demons and instructed his followers to do likewise. Do you believe that certain types of disease are caused by demons?

The NT also states that true Christians can handle snakes and drink poison without harm.

The NT also suggests that heaven exists as a physical location somewhere above the earth beyond the clouds. In this, the NT agrees with the Torah, which tells us that God looked down and came down so as to check out the tower of Babel.

The NT also states that women should not be allowed to have authority over men, and if they are to learn anything, they should consult their husbands.

The NT is also rather fuzzy regarding the recipe for one's salvation (faith vs. works).

The NT also states that Jesus' second coming was imminent...

1 Corinthians 7:26, 29, 31 - Because of the present distress, I think it is good for you to remain as you are [i.e., unmarried] . . . What I mean, brothers, is that the appointed time has grown short . . . For this world in its present form is passing away.

Hebrews 10:37 - For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

James 5:7-9 - Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. . . You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.

1 Peter 1:20 - He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

1 Peter 4:7 - The end of all things is near.

Rev. 22:20 - Surely I come quickly.

Please understand, I'm not a Christian-basher, and I hope I don't come across as such. I am, instead, a student of comparative religion, and I try to approach sacred texts (all of them) with a degree of objectivity.

[Goose]

Orion,

Very good points. It's interesting that so many Christians will condemn others, and even try to shoplift the identity of a people(the Jews), based over texts of a book(the "NT") that doesn't even exist from a consensus. And to top it off, a majority of the "NT" is written by a man(Paul) who never even met "Christ", except through personal ecstasies and visions. And most of these teachings from "revelations" contradict so much with the text and attitude of the Gospels, that some(Dispensationalists) even reject the Gospels as currently being authoritative! This allows one to detach reality/objectivity to "Christ" and allowing one to create their own detached image of "Christ". And this point has been proven by mearly just counting all the vast denominations and beliefs among "Christianity".

[dizzle]

Orion, you are pursuing a debate I am not having.

No, it does not. Are you presuming to tell me what I believe? I don't care for purposes of this limited discussion if my debate proponents wish to assume that what I am stating is held by a certain "flavor" of Christianity. It is irrelevant. The fact is that it is a dominant Christian belief.



You continue to repeat this incorrect assertion. I can assure you that you do not speak for all of Christianity. You certainly do not speak for a considerable number of Roman Catholics, Episcopalians or Lutherans in positions of authority. Irrelevant. The fact is that my position has been the historic position of the faith. I do speak for evangelical conservatives. The fact that some may differ is no more binding for purposes of this conversation then the fact that there are people who say Messianic Jews are indeed Jews. Karaite (formerly known as Yos) and Eli disagree and I can take their positions as fact for the sake of the conversation.

The rest of your post is a needless and I daresay very ignorant screech against Christianity that should be taken to Apologetics. And if you are not a theist, it probably should have been there to begin with as this is a primarily a theist only area of the forum (which you may not be aware of - very easy mistake to make). I realize that you say you are not a "Christian-basher" - but then again you also say that you are objective, and some of those "objections" were far from it IMHO (which is objective of course - right?) unless one is presuming extreme liberalism equates with objectivity.

ps: you are barking up the wrong tree with this girl with the "coming" verses. Jesus did in fact "come" in the first century. It was not however the second coming which is simply the resurrection event which is yet future, but it was the coming in judgment upon the apostate nation of Israel that existed at that time in judgment for rejecting their Messiah - funny you should bring that up in this thread

[dizzle]

I have seen Christians who disagree with that statement. There seems to be a great deal of variation which different forms of Christainity teaches on that subject.
Irrelevant to this discussion. As I said that it does not matter to me if Yos and Eli wish to presume that I only speak for some, which I daresay is the majority. There are Jews who are atheists. Should I presume that throws the necessity of God into doubt?


Not all forms of christianity is that intolerant and rigid.
That is nice. Not all antimissionaries are bigotted against conservative evangelicals either

There are professed Jews that are not so darned rigid about that nasty necessity of God existing either. Why are you rigid? That is just silly. Truth is truth my friend. A statement is either true or it is false. Whether or not you personaly find it intolerant or rigid is irrelevant.

Now, one interpretion that I have heard from a devote Catholic is that Jesus was the gateway and the key, but belief that Jesus is God might not be needed to use that gate. So, there are many different interpretations of that one point also.
And I have heard from very liberal Jews that there is no afterlife, you simply exist in the memories of those you left behind. I guess that means there is no truth. Furthermore, you have no read carefully. I have been very narrowly speaking here about outright rejection of Christ.


Well, in my opinion, it seems that statements from Paul are quoted much more the actual words of Jesus. There are a number of concepts that are
mentioned by Paul that seem essential to the Christian religion that are never mentioned by Jesus. Between he and John, the entire flavor of what
was taught is changed.
Outside the bounds of this discussion. I can use solely quotes of Christ.


Well, it's like this. You believe it, that is because you are Christian. However, the Jewish people would not be Jewish if they accepted
the concept of God made Flesh, that is why they are not Christian.
Jesus taught that the entire OT was about Him, and that He fulfilled the law and the prophets. Thus of course, one must believe Christ - but of course then if one is going to be fair to those who do from their own presuppositions, they have every right to declare they are Jewish. From the perspective of Christianity it is Jewish to the core.


It appears to me that what JESUS taught is not so much diametrically
opposed to Judiasm (it is very similar to the Hillel verison of Pharisee Judaism), but rather what is taught ABOUT Jesus by Paul, John and
the Synoptic Gospels that are diametrically opposed to Judaism.
Outside the bounds of this conversation except to the extent that historic Christianity accepts the entire NT and thus to evaluate Eli's comments one must take the whole into account.





Can you prove that there is an 'absolute truth'. Until you can prove that, then yes, you can have it both ways.
You deny absolute truth? the context of my question was this - Can Jesus be truly and in reality God for Gentiles and be nothing for Jews?

[Timothy Leary]

Orion,
based over texts of a book(the "NT") that doesn't even exist from a consensus.

huh??? Doesn't exist from a consensus????

[dizzle]

huh??? Doesn't exist from a consensus????
Goose is giving credence to ultra liberal scholarship that he woiuld not accept for his own beliefs, and thus is playing the hypocrite.

[Sacrificial Ram]

You deny absolute truth? the context of my question was this - Can Jesus be truly and in reality God for Gentiles and be nothing for Jews?
Yes, exactly. Jesus can truly and reality God for the Christians (not even all gentiles, just the Christians).. and nothing for any non-christian. Jesus can even be not God, but a prophet for others, (for about a billion people known as Muslims too).

[dizzle]

Well sir that is patently insane. A being is either ontologically God or He is not. You do realize that the definition of God requires that don't you? And that the Christian definition of God is no different, meaning that God is God over all. So you have a situation in which you must affirm that Jesus is indeed God over the Jews at the same time He is not at the same time, adn in the same way. Do you have any grasp of the law of non-Contradiction?

[reasonabledoubt]

I'd recommend reading "The Good Book" by Peter Gomes, Christian minister and scholar. He includes a chapter that tries to show how Judaism is "true" for the Jews, and Jesus came to make some reforms, but also to bring salvation to the Gentiles. In other words, there is a system for his own chosen people, and a system for the gentiles, who are NOT his chosen people.

[Anitra]

Do you have any grasp of the law of non-Contradiction?There is no contradiction, Dee Dee.

R = Reality, with God in it
D = Your concept of reality, in which Jesus is God
E = Eli's concept of reality (and mine), in which Jesus is not God

You are insisting that your own understanding of reality IS reality, and that anyone who disagrees with YOUR concept of God is denying the existence of God. Eli is saying that many other people have a different understanding of God; that his own understanding of God does not conflict with that of many other Christians, only with some who believe as you do; and that none of us, you or me or Eli or the gatepost, understand reality the way that God does.

We are all human, limited, and fallible. Even if the Bible is the the Word of God -- which Eli believes as much as you do -- no human being's understanding of the Bible is the Word of God. Honest people have honest differences of opinion about what the Bible means in very many places. Traditional Jews, for instance, do no believe in the existence of the Satan that you believe in, do not believe in the existence of the Hell that you believe in, have an entirely different idea of what "Messiah" means than you do, and do not believe that God, the Master of the Universe, the One Who embraces all of existence, can or ever will incarnate as a human being within His own existence, any more than you are ever going to become one of your cells.

To say that you have a right to believe as you see right and that your beliefs are right for you and can yield good fruit in your life is not saying that there is more than one physical reality. It is saying that there is more than one human understanding of physical reality, that we are all limited and fallible and may be wrong, and therefore none of us has the right to damn another -- or to say that God damns them, which is a distinction without a difference -- whenever their understanding differs from ours.

As for myself, I think the spirit of God is shown in a person's life by the values they act upon, not on their creedal conformity. Calling people who disagree with you "insane" sounds a lot more like the fruit of the flesh than the fruit of the spirit, to me. Someone who considers Christ to be a reincarnated Lemurian guru, and who treats other people gently, may be closer to God than someone who believes all the right things and treats other people disdainfully. Jesus Himself said He was going to go by how people treated even those they thought the least of, not by who cried "Lord Lord."

None of our differences of human opinion justify being abusive to one another.

[dizzle]

Again - I would highly dispute that and I am well aware of some who makes those claims. It flies in blatant contradiction to the words of Christ Himselfand common sense, and the rest of the NT. There is always a "scholar" willing to say almost anything - I can find some Jewish ones as well. It is not a matter of finding someone to say something that tickles our ears but what the text actually says.

And all that is besides the point I have been making. I do not care for the sake of this thread is it is said that there are different groups with regards to this issue. I am talking about the significant group to which I belong.

[dizzle]

Anitra the part that deals with my particular point made here is nonsense. I am not talking about perceptions of reality, I am talking about reality itself. In reality itself, Jesus is either God or He is not God. And yes it is insane to say that A can be nonA in the same way and at the same time. To call that a work of the flesh IMHO is self-righteous baloney.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Well sir that is patently insane. A being is either ontologically God or He is not. You do realize that the definition of God requires that don't you? And that the Christian definition of God is no different, meaning that God is God over all. So you have a situation in which you must affirm that Jesus is indeed God over the Jews at the same time He is not at the same time, adn in the same way. Do you have any grasp of the law of non-Contradiction?
YOu think there is only one definiton of god??

Do you have evidence that any God exists, or does not exist? Do you have any path to show that 'truth' about religious belief is an absolute.

To the Christian, Jesus is the God over the Jews too. To the Jewish person,
God is incorporial, and will never become a man. The Christians have a different religious 'Truth' than the Jews do. To the Muslims, Jesus was just
a prophet, and not god.. That is 'Truth' for them.

Until such a time you can demonstrate a way to provide objective evidence one way or another, they are all are equally valid (or invalid).

If you want to invoke the law of non contradiction ( a philosphical construct nothing else) , some people might say you can be father and your own son at the same time.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Rather than answer you point-by-point and lose the thrust of the argument in the crossfire, I am going to directly address the central issue here:

Ok eli, here's the thing:

1. Do you acknowledge that Jesus said "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19)?

2. The "Jews for Jesus" missionaries, in approaching you to bring you the good news, are following Jesus' command. So does this missionary activity mean that:a. They are "to be praised for their piety in following their religion built on Jesus"?, or
b. They "bad apples"?
Jezz,
Do you also acknowledge that Jesus said to 'shake the dust off your sandals and leave' if your message is not wanted?

[dizzle]

Do you believe or not believe in reality? That there is something called reality and it is true regardless of what mistakes any of us might have about it? Do you deny the law of noncontradiction?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Again - I would highly dispute that and I am well aware of some who makes those claims. It flies in blatant contradiction to the words of Christ Himselfand common sense, and the rest of the NT. There is always a "scholar" willing to say almost anything - I can find some Jewish ones as well. It is not a matter of finding someone to say something that tickles our ears but what the text actually says.

And all that is besides the point I have been making. I do not care for the sake of this thread is it is said that there are different groups with regards to this issue. I am talking about the significant group to which I belong.
You seem to be very sure of yourself about what Christ said. WHy don't we look at the various quotes IN CONTEXT. I am sure that we can show a variety of different opinions about what speicific quotes mean IN CONTEXT that mean things very different than the meaning that you gave them.

And, I am sure, if you look elsewhere, you can find passages that seem to mean the exact opposite.

And I am only talking about the words attributed to Jesus.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Goose is giving credence to ultra liberal scholarship that he woiuld not accept for his own beliefs, and thus is playing the hypocrite.
So, how many books ARE in the Bible?

Is it the 70 that the Catholics have believed for 1300 years,

or is it the 66 that got picked by Martin Luthor when he rejected a few
of the books that didn't match his theology???

Is that 'ultra-modern'??

[dizzle]

Irrelevant to my ultimate point. I am sure glad though you want to presume to teach me what my faith is - that is another topic. Don't you dislike that intensely when Christians do that to you vis a vis the Messianic Prophecies? Hypocrisy?

Taking as true for the sake of argument my position - if in fact Jesus did teach that - if it is true, it is true for everyone. Now if you wish to presume to define for Christians what they should believe in their own faith that is quite presumptous of you. At least when a missionary is evangelizing they are quite open that they are trying to get you to radically change into something they themselves believe in.

Please deal with my issue. If Jesus is in fact God, which is what historic Christianity teaches - then He is God for everyone.

[dizzle]

So, how many books ARE in the Bible?

Is it the 70 that the Catholics have believed for 1300 years,

or is it the 66 that got picked by Martin Luthor when he rejected a few
of the books that didn't match his theology???

Is that 'ultra-modern'??
How many books are the Word in the OT? Only what the Sadducees believed? Or the Pharisees? Gee, this game is fun but irrelevant to the point of this thread.

[reasonabledoubt]

The interesting thing is that Paul was writing first, around 50-70 AD, and he never met the man Jesus. The gospels were not written till around 70-90 AD- and some of those were (presumably) written by men who had been Jesus' disciples. If you just read the Gospels, particularly the first 3, without reading any of Paul, your version of Christianity might be quite different. And even so those gospels were written w/ Paul's works already around, so the authors presumably had access to Pauls' works- and yet in their Gospels didn't put anything in there about the requirement of explicit belief that Jesus was God. "I am the way, the truth and the life," what does that mean anyway? If Jesus is the way, does that mean He is GOd, or does that mean his TEACHINGS and way of living were the way to the kingdom of God? This is subject to interpretation.

Unless someone has a direct line to God, which I'm sure we all would not claim, we have to be humble that our beliefs could be wrong, could be influenced by our culture or our upbringing, and that we can't be 100% sure that we are in possession of absolute truth.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Do you believe or not believe in reality? That there is something called reality and it is true regardless of what mistakes any of us might have about it? Do you deny the law of noncontradiction?
Can you show me a science book that promotes 'the law of non-contradiction'??

When discussing religious beliefs, can you come up with a method for gathering objective evidence for testing the objective 'truth' of one set of religious/spiritual beliefs over the other'???

Until you can do that, then religious beliefs are not in realm of worrying about 'reality' what so ever.

I would be very interested. What method , aside from assertion, do you have to demonstrate the 'reality' of one religious belief over another?

[Sacrificial Ram]

How many books are the Word in the OT? Only what the Sadducees believed? Or the Pharisees? Gee, this game is fun but irrelevant to the point of this thread.
It IS relevant is the fact you were calling Orion's point that there is no consensus to what is in the new testament,and then you make allusions to
'ultra modern liberal scholarship' (as if labeling that invalidates it).

[dizzle]

It IS relevant is the fact you were calling Orion's point that there is no consensus to what is in the new testament,and then you make allusions to
'ultra modern liberal scholarship' (as if labeling that invalidates it).
No, please read carefully. I was quoting Goose and showing that he was being a hypocrite. Unless you are going to accept the same "scholarship" about your faith since the two are very intimately connected sharing the OT - without a significant reason why - then you have no room to stand upon.

[dizzle]

Can you show me a science book that promotes 'the law of non-contradiction'??

When discussing religious beliefs, can you come up with a method for gathering objective evidence for testing the objective 'truth' of one set of religious/spiritual beliefs over the other'???

Until you can do that, then religious beliefs are not in realm of worrying about 'reality' what so ever.

I would be very interested. What method , aside from assertion, do you have to demonstrate the 'reality' of one religious belief over another?
Do you deny the law of noncontradiction? If you do, then we do not have a basis of reality from which even to talk, and I do not waste my time.

[dizzle]

And of this is besides the ultimate point, I really wish you folks could keep focused. It isn't complicated. Taking as true for sake of argument that Jesus in REALITY is God and that the claims of the Bible are true (as claimed by the conservative branch of Christianity I represent) THEN it follows that it is true for ALL people regardless of whether they recognize it not. IN REALITY.

[reasonabledoubt]

Which claims of the Bible?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Irrelevant to my ultimate point. I am sure glad though you want to presume to teach me what my faith is - that is another topic. Don't you dislike that intensely when Christians do that to you vis a vis the Messianic Prophecies? Hypocrisy?

Taking as true for the sake of argument my position - if in fact Jesus did teach that - if it is true, it is true for everyone. Now if you wish to presume to define for Christians what they should believe in their own faith that is quite presumptous of you. At least when a missionary is evangelizing they are quite open that they are trying to get you to radically change into something they themselves believe in.

Please deal with my issue. If Jesus is in fact God, which is what historic Christianity teaches - then He is God for everyone.
Why? Why are you insisting that God will only have one manifistation? It could be that Jesus is the way God appears to the Christians, and appears to the Hindus through the Holy Trinity of Vishnu , Brahma and Shiva.

[dizzle]

Why? Why are you insisting that God will only have one manifistation? It could be that Jesus is the way God appears to the Christians, and appears to the Hindus through the Holy Trinity of Vishnu , Brahma and Shiva.
Because that is the premise of my point. I am asking you to be consistent for the sake of argument. We can move on to the other issues possibly but not if we cannot agree that A cannot be nonA at the same time and in the same way.

I am asking simply for the concession of the very basic logic of my point. If Jesus is ontologically (in reality) God, then He is God no matter who believes it or not, and He is God for everything. Whether or not He reveals Himself differently to other people is another issue. This is not as complicated as you are making it, but for some reason you refuse to concede the obvious.

[dizzle]

Which claims of the Bible?
The ones I have been making all along. Ifyou have not grasped that so far, then it is too late for you to do so.

This is not complicated. But it demands that one abandon nonsensical and cheapened "tolerance" for true representation of claims. kariate has done so

[Sacrificial Ram]

No, please read carefully. I was quoting Goose and showing that he was being a hypocrite. Unless you are going to accept the same "scholarship" about your faith since the two are very intimately connected sharing the OT - without a significant reason why - then you have no room to stand upon.
Don't you think that calling someone a hypocrite is attacking the person, rather than looking at the issue?

ANd yes, of course, we have to accept the scholarship about the O.T.
Why shouldn't we?

I am also pointing out that the specific point you are reacting too (that there is no consensus about what books are in the new Testament), is a very old one, and not 'ultra-modern liberal scholarship'. There has been disagreement between the Catholics and the Protestants ever since there
was the split from the Catholic Church.

[reasonabledoubt]

Oh I've grasped it, Dee Dee. I'm not an ignoramus. You are ignoring the fact that there are many ways to interpret the NT. Many different Christian denominations do not hold to your beliefs. And yet you don't acknowledge that. You act and speak as though you are the holder of orthodoxy.

I'm sure you know that even the Catholic Church acknowledges "anonymous Christians," and does not claim that observant Jews are condemned. Is there some reason why anyone should accept your claims over the claims of the Catholic church, or many other theologians and denominations?

[Sacrificial Ram]

The ones I have been making all along. Ifyou have not grasped that so far, then it is too late for you to do so.

This is not complicated. But it demands that one abandon nonsensical and cheapened "tolerance" for true representation of claims. kariate has done so
How about looking at the ones you have been actually making. Let's look
at the actual passages from which you are making your 'truth claims' about, and lets read them IN CONTEXT. Not only that, let's look at the language, and see if certain key phrases were common in the era in which they were written, and if those phrases meant the same thing back then as they do today.

You seem to think that the way YOU interpret various passages in the bible are the only way it can be interpreted. Why don't we look at those passages one by one, and worry abou those passages one at a time, rather than making sweeping generalities and 'truth' claims?

[dizzle]

Completely missing the point. Unless you guys wish to get to the point of what I was saying, which Karaite had no problem in doing in two posts, there is nothing to discuss. When we resolve that issue perhaps there is room to go forward, if not, I am not going to further waste my time. Karaite once again has shown himself to be a reasonable, rational, and forthright individual - as he had in other conversations. You two have your own debate that you wish I was proposing, but I am not. If you think you can address the point, which from the beginning said to take my presuppositions as true for the sake the argument (so debating my presuppositions is being horribly thick), then there is nothing to discuss, at least with me at this point, for you are not dealing with the point.

[Pitiricus]

Thank you for your answer...

[Sacrificial Ram]

Completely missing the point. Unless you guys wish to get to the point of what I was saying, which Karaite had no problem in doing in two posts, there is nothing to discuss. When we resolve that issue perhaps there is room to go forward, if not, I am not going to further waste my time. Karaite once again has shown himself to be a reasonable, rational, and forthright individual - as he had in other conversations. You two have your own debate that you wish I was proposing, but I am not. If you think you can address the point, which from the beginning said to take my presuppositions as true for the sake the argument (so debating my presuppositions is being horribly thick), then there is nothing to discuss, at least with me at this point, for you are not dealing with the point.
It seems to me either you are purposely avoiding the issue, or you are not being very clear to begin with. I will give you the benefit of the doubt,
and assume you are not being very clear.

How about clarifiying what point you are attempting to make?

[Pitiricus]

Unhappily for Christians, it is idolatry... because the whole concept of a "son" of God etc. goes against Judaism and is politheism (the Rambam said as much...)

So Christianity IS avoda zara...

[reasonabledoubt]

OK, for the sake of argument, suppose your interpretation of the NT is correct, Jesus IS God. That's the reality. Now what?
That's not enough. We'd have to examine what the implications of this reality is. If the implications were that everybody who does not acknowledge this explicitly is damned, then so be it. My argument is that the NT does not teach that, however. That's also the position of the Catholic church, and also many mainline protestant churches.

[bar Jonah]

Is this thread still going? :doh:

This thread isn't even on topic anymore... Why not create a new thread? :shrug: I'm not even in the thread anymore, but it certainly is a pain in the tuchis to see my name in the title thread pop up 20 times a day as part of a flatly false statement about me.

Howabout a new thread, Dee Dee?

[Pitiricus]

It all depends on what you mean by 'Satan'. Technically, in Hebrew, the word can refer to any adversary. IIRC, the word is used to describe David's physical enemies in the 'Nach.
Not really: in the OT, hasatan is a function, which would translate into "prosecutor". It isn't a person or a separate member of God's court... It is also never an enemy ...

Satan as a concept in Christianity is a pagan accretion...

[Pitiricus]

And of this is besides the ultimate point, I really wish you folks could keep focused. It isn't complicated. Taking as true for sake of argument that Jesus in REALITY is God and that the claims of the Bible are true (as claimed by the conservative branch of Christianity I represent) THEN it follows that it is true for ALL people regardless of whether they recognize it not. IN REALITY.
But me, for instance recognize neither the one no the other... I have alsommy doubt as to the existence of Jesus (no historic proof of his existence exists... A sore point for 1600 years...)

[Douglas Firth]

I an an older Christian and share the position that you have that we practising Christians have various concepts of what GOD wants form us.I prefer using the analogy of the three blind men who grasped an elephant. One descibed the elephant as a snake, the other described him as a tree trunk, the third one said it was like a rope. Each one had a grasp of one part but none could see the whole picture. So it is with Christians and GOD. The Quran has taken parts of the old testament into the belief system. The Jews GAVE us the Commandments- a foundation for Christian faith - and even we have forgotten about the Sabbath commandment. To summarize, I do not feel that any Christian -no matter HOW WELL educated in the scriptures, has the right to condemn anyone. Given time and persistant determination , I am sure that anyone can come to know God fairly accurately BUT it takes devotion from a person to learn the truth.I am on that quest and am learning each day. There's many Muslims who believe and think all Christians and Jews are evil and Satanic. In fact many don't mind killing themselves to kill Christians and Jews and believe they are waging a holy war. Are they right? Of course not. But by the same token any Christian who believes all Jews and Muslims are evil and Satanic are not right either.

You probably know that the Amish believe that all who are not Amish are going to hell. Are you Amish? I am sure not. They think you're going to hell. They are Christians, are they not? Are they right or wrong? I believe they are wrong. It is possible for Christians to be wrong, it is possible for Christians to misinterpret, it is possible that Christians do not know everything about God and how he acts and will act.

I would grill any person whatever faith who claims to know absolutely what God will do. Any person who has no humility but exhibits pride and arrogance in their own ability to ascertain God's will and design- pride in their "correct" interpretation of Scripture and unable to dialog with other fellow Christians who happen to interpret Scripture in a different way.

[Douglas Firth]

Your assertion that JEWs are lost assumes you have a direct line to GOD. THAT is not humble but judgemental, and it presumes that you have total COMPLETE understanding of all the scriptures.Granted if you have studied a lot you have some certainty.
BUT the reason we have so many branches of Christianity is because each one interpreted scripture a different way.We each obtain misunderstandings.

I have the belief, and I am Christian, that the LORD GOD is not finished with the Jewish people. AND that they are equally able to worship and serve the LORD because those who studied and have gained a relationship with GOD understand HIS heart and will. (Matt 17;3)Christ ALWAYS pointed to the Father as HIS source of instruction. AND Christ was a JEW.HE said not one jot or tittle shall not pass from the law.( Matt 5;17-19 )The Jews are trying to live by the law as are we. BUT I believe the difference is we are not trying to earn righteousness, we do it out of love.If we fail we are forgiven when we ask.

Did you know that there is error in the practise of the Sabbath??
I have recently learned that the Shabbat was determined by the appearance of the new moon, and ocurred 7,14,21, and twenty eight days after.So Saturday, by our calender, is an incorrect measure of the Sabbath.

To summarize; the bad guy (satan) doesn't want us to know the truth of what GOD said.So human fallibility has often hidden the true meaning of GOD's word. Because we have today scriptures that are corrupted, check the oldest writtings if you want GOD's true word.If we all do that there will be less diagreement.:teeth:

[Goose]

Orion,

Very good points. It's interesting that so many Christians will condemn others, and even try to shoplift the identity of a people(the Jews), based over texts of a book(the "NT") that doesn't even exist from a consensus. And to top it off, a majority of the "NT" is written by a man(Paul) who never even met "Christ", except through personal ecstasies and visions. And most of these teachings from "revelations" contradict so much with the text and attitude of the Gospels, that some(Dispensationalists) even reject the Gospels as currently being authoritative! This allows one to detach reality/objectivity to "Christ" and allowing one to create their own detached image of "Christ". And this point has been proven by mearly just counting all the vast denominations and beliefs among "Christianity".
Goose is giving credence to ultra liberal scholarship that he woiuld not accept for his own beliefs, and thus is playing the hypocrite.
Ultra-liberal? Ha! My views are actually very conservative. It's "ultra-liberal" to piece together a collection of books from manuscripts that contradict, and form a whole religion around it; kill and convert by the sword by it; and try to take the identity of a whole people by it(the Jews). This is what the Christians do. They took puzzle pieces from a pile of different broken up and incomplete puzzles, and tried to make one big puzzle mosaic out of it. How do they know what the puzzles looked like? They don't! They use what is called "Circular Reasoning" for the most part.

As for me being a hypocrite, you're applying your understanding of Christianity to Judaism, as if the two worked the same way; but your understanding of Judaism is lacking.

[dizzle]

There must be something in the air here for everyone simply ignores the point being made, and ironicallky Goose you proved my point for me. It is not YOU that I am saying is ultra-liberal. I am saying that these many authorities that you are relyng upon for this view are the VERY SAME authorities that would say all kinds of unpleasant things about the OT that you would deny - yet you believe it on the NT but not the OT. THAT is my point.

[Goose]

There must be something in the air here for everyone simply ignores the point being made, and ironicallky Goose you proved my point for me. It is not YOU that I am saying is ultra-liberal. I am saying that these many authorities that you are relyng upon for this view are the VERY SAME authorities that would say all kinds of unpleasant things about the OT that you would deny - yet you believe it on the NT but not the OT. THAT is my point.
...and your point, along with your personal attacks against me, are based on assumptions. I can speak for Christianity, because I use to be one.

To get back to the thread:

The truth is that "Christianity" for the most part think Jews are going to hell.

[dizzle]

...and your point, along with your personal attacks against me, are based on assumptions. I can speak for Christianity, because I use to be one.
Am I wrong in assuming that you reject liberal scholarship about the OT? If so you are being Clintonesque.


The truth is that "Christianity" for the most part think Jews are going to hell.
Any reason you put "Christianity" in quotes?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Because that is the premise of my point. I am asking you to be consistent for the sake of argument. We can move on to the other issues possibly but not if we cannot agree that A cannot be nonA at the same time and in the same way.

I am asking simply for the concession of the very basic logic of my point. If Jesus is ontologically (in reality) God, then He is God no matter who believes it or not, and He is God for everything. Whether or not He reveals Himself differently to other people is another issue. This is not as complicated as you are making it, but for some reason you refuse to concede the obvious.
Because, as far as I am concerned, you claim is irrelavent.

It can not be proven one way or another. Plus, does not have to be true for EVERYONE. That is the whole point, and I am sorry you are unable to understand it. I don't think my understanding of what god is corrosponds to what you insist god is.

But, that is ok.. what god is for you is just different that god is to me.

[dizzle]

Do you not believe that there is reality?

[Goose]

Am I wrong in assuming that you reject liberal scholarship about the OT?Give me an example.
Any reason you put "Christianity" in quotes?Because there is no concrete identity of "Christianity". Getting past the common Christian rubric of...

"Everyone is a sinner"
"Jesus is the Way"
"Saved by Grace"
"Washed in the blood"
etc.

...there isn't much concrete identity to Christianity. Asking real fundamental questions to get a consensus concerning "the Christ" that should be really easy are actually really hard in Christianity. Questions like:

"Who was Jesus, really?"
"Was Jesus God?"
"Was Jesus a Jew?"
"Are we to do the things that Jesus did?"
"Did Jesus keep the Sabbath?"
"Why is Paul's teachings so different then the Twelves?"
etc.

Common questions that any elementary school kid would ask about his "Savior" can't be easily answered in "Christianity", because Christians, whoever they may be, widely disagree! Yet things like being able to condemn others, ability to call themselves the real Jews, etc. are legit. This is unacceptable, irrational nonsense.

Christianity has no identity apart from the headless schizophrenic body that it currently is. That is why when someone refers to someone as "Christian" today, you can't grasp what they actually believe. But you can probably wager they are very subjective.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Do you not believe that there is reality?
I think I will quote Einstein on that one

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein

Or

Man has always sacrificed truth to his vanity, comfort and advantage. He lives by make-believe. W. Somerset Maugham

[Menachem]

Eli I really wish you would engage the argument. The New Testament makes certain claims including the Messiahship and deity of Christ and that the fulfillment of the OT is found in Christ. Do you believe that it is true for Gentiles that Jesus is truly and actually God? Is Jesus God? He cannot ontologically be God just for some Eli. He either is God or He is not God. This is not complicated. Either He fulfilled the OT or He did not. It cannot be that it is true He fulfilled the OT for Gentiles and not for Jews. This is nonsensical. The claims of Christianity are not of the sort that can be true for some and not true for all.

Have but you missed it obviously.... The issue is not whether or not jesus is G-d or not the issue is about the truth brought about by jesus. Which is ultimately there is only one G-d. We Jews already knew that. His message was given a world away to the gentiles his instrumental way of getting the Truth of only one G-d to the Gentiles was astounded....

again I touch on the issue and you will not see what I am saying only to make up more nonsensical argumetns to supplement my non christain point of view....



not a matter of point of view. I understand from your point of view that you think there are many paths to God. Christianity denies that, so you must say that Christianity is wrong.

No that is not the reasoning...This is a matter of a point of view you are arguing from the christian perspective forgetting that I am not a christian...You argue your point as if I accept the christian point of view...

What christianity does or does not do within itself is not my point and never was, My point has always been about What Judaism says....yet you dismiss it as contradicting....let me ask you this if Christianity is so exclusive why did the Pope in Rome in the apologize tot he Jews and affirm to the Catholic world that the Jews have an eternally valid covenant... were they wrong for doing this?????

Jesus claimed that Eli. Jesus claimed that Jews who rejected Him were condemned. You are making the fallacy of presupposition. You are not looking at the issue from the standpoint of the truth claims made, but from your evaluation of the truth claims made. I could claim I was God, Eli, and you would deny that I am, but that does not change the fact that I made that claim. Christianity claims it is the exclusive and only true faith for all.

What the details are are not my concern my point has always been about the overall truth that is associated...i.e. "There is one G-d" The details that divide us are irrelivent.... actually if you look thoses werent the words of jesus they were the words of John about Jesus....nice try and now your drawing a straw man argument by distorting my points about the overall message and turning them into something to be about something specific.



Eli do you really want to have a conversation or just try to score cheap debating points. That is completely inaccurate. Just because Christianity and Judaism share items, does not mean they are harmonious at their core. The core of Christianity is that we are fallen in sin and separated from God, and that only the sacrifice of Christ can reconcile us to God. So while of course Christianity teaches that you must love God – it teaches that you cannot love God if you reject Christ. That is the rub Eli.

Its not my fault, you said it not me....If it is so inaccurate then why say it at all???? Of course at the core we are harmonious I get along quite well with my christian friends and we all agree on one important thing...."One G-d"

well then you summed up everything in christianity, now what does Judaism say about christianity.......It is a legitimate path to G-d.....again you are arguing form your perspective and treating it as if I share it.....


Eli again that is cheap. Did I say that I thought we did? The FACT is that you are being unfaithful to what you believe if YOU don’t say that we do. We worship who you believe to be a mortal man like the rest of us as God. IF that is true, we are idolatrous blasphemers, and that is not tolerable or beautiful. Please do come to grips with the stark reality Eli.


would you like me to quote and highlight what you said ok I will:

You are contradicting your own ideals. Christians worship Jesus as God. God in the Noahide commandments denounces idolatry and blasphemy. Christians teach that Jesus is the only way to God. This is incompatible at its very core to what you believe. There is NO WAY for both to be true.

This is how I got the implication that you were meaning to say that....




The devil’s in the details Eli. The detail of the fact that the NT is crystal clear that those who reject Christ are condemned.

I dont believe in a Devil, but it still doesnt change the fact that there is only one G-d and you and I both believe in teh same G-d of Avraham....





Is the deification and messiahship claims wrong for Gentiles, or is that praiseworthy and beautiful? (I have no need for my point to argue with your incorrect statement, it is irrelevant)

If you look at the people that they were meaning to convert in the Gentile population yeah it possibly was a good idea since they had to compete with other religions who featured similar things... my "incorrect" statement just got revitalized.




And Jesus did in fact multiple times declare that one’s response to him determined one’s eternal destiny.

This point is irrelivent since we are talking about a central belief in One G-d issue not the details in between.....





Yes. And Christianity teaches that you need Jesus or you have denied God. There is One God who exists eternally in three persons. Wow, doesn’t sound like we have the same God at all does it? Or is that just true for the Gentiles? That is nonsense Eli.

You answered yes to there being one G-d then I rest my case....the details are irrelivent



Truth is not relavistic Eli. Either Jesus is God or He is not. He either fulfilled the OT or He did not. It cannot be that those things are true for the Gentiles but not for the Jews. If they are false, they are false for everyone. If they are true, you desparately need Christ.

You answered "yes" to a relavistic question above the details are irrelivent...



If they are false as you say, you should not be lauding it for it is rank idolatry, and a violation of the Noahide commandments. It is the worship of man as God.


Im just going to leave this one be....

You already answered my relavistic Question of one G-d, above the details are irrelivent....If you know there is one G-d that is true....From the Jewish perspective....

[Menachem]

Er.... Eli, you just contradicted yourself.


I can see you got your name changed cool...


actually I didn't since I am not pining over the details as Dee Dee is.....I am taking the big picture and saying that it is true....And that is that you ultimately Believe in one G-d and that is the truth...the Details are irrelivent....

Christianity was successful in bringing billions of people to knowing the G-d of Avraham. I view it as a legitimate Noachide covenant which is for gentiles not for Jews.....

Think Big picture not Details....details divide...Big picture unites...what is the big picture...."The is one G-d"...The G-d of Avraham, Yitzak, and Yakov....

[dizzle]

The One God who is Truine of whom Jesus is truly God and one cannot deny God's provision for sin without denying God Himself. Those details are very important.

Is the God of Abraham Triune? Is Christ the God of Abraham?

[dizzle]

If you know there is one G-d that is true....From the Jewish perspective....
What if someone believes in One God that tells him that Jews are evil and they should all be killed? Is that true? Or how about One God that tells people that they must sacrifice their firstborn child to him? Is that true? The word "God" Eli is not magical - you really should know that. It is the meaning that is poured into it, and the fact is there are significant ontological differences. It is extraordinarily shallow to ignore them.

[Menachem]

What if someone believes in One God that tells him that Jews are evil and they should all be killed? Is that true? Or how about One God that tells people that they must sacrifice their firstborn child to him? Is that true? The word "God" Eli is not magical - you really should know that. It is the meaning that is poured into it, and the fact is there are significant ontological differences. It is extraordinarily shallow to ignore them.


How many world religions do that now.....Sacrifice their child....Say the Jews are evil and must be exterminated......Christiantiy brought those people out of sacrificing their children to saying we dont need to sacrifice our children to accept G-d's will we just need to pray.....
Also christianity came out of the inquisition ways and embraced us and said we are sorry for the centuries of Anti-semitism and murder....See Catholic history.....

In fact My Rabbi went to a Catholic mass one day by way of Invitation from the Local Priest(only to watch not take part)...The Priest embraced him afterward and whispered the Word "Shalom" in His ear and afterward saying that we are not so different in our worship of G-d, just that we see jesus as the messiah and son of G-d, and you choose to stay your Path and worship G-d only. That to me is beautiful, when two faiths can come embrace one another and not dwell over the details that divide us......Not to mention the Dinner afterward was all prepared Kosher for the Rabbi...


Islam as a religion, I am told by my muslim friends, Is a religion of Peace and respects christians and Jews. My friends and their Imans denounce the ones in the middle east who practice a form of Moorish Islam as ones who twisted their own message into that of hate not peace, I tell them they are very good muslims and very good friends and to keep up the good work in theri worship of G-d..I continue on my way..Knowing they represent the best of Islam(in my opinion)....

When you look at all of the positive notes and leave the negative details behind we see that truth is present for the Jew, the Christain, and the Muslim...

[Menachem]

The One God who is Truine of whom Jesus is truly God and one cannot deny God's provision for sin without denying God Himself. Those details are very important.

Is the God of Abraham Triune? Is Christ the God of Abraham?

Irrelivent details....What is Important here is that you believe in the one G-d

[dizzle]

RI asked for this thread to cease as it has his name in it. And you have refused to deal with the point. The next time you make this inane claim that I see I will once again challenge it.

[bar Jonah]

Thank you, Dee Dee.

It isn't simply that it has my name in it. I'm not asking for any moderator action, here. But everytime this thread bumps up again, I see this libelous statement attached to my name, and it's more than a little annoying. Additionally, the thread is 100% off topic. So my request is that if anyone wants to continue this interesting discussion, by all means do so in another thread. :smile:

Thanks muchly.

[Menachem]

RI asked for this thread to cease as it has his name in it. And you have refused to deal with the point. The next time you make this inane claim that I see I will once again challenge it.


I agree I think the thread has run its course, but to answer the claim part I did deal with it just not the way you thought I should....

Now my headache can have a rest on this thread... yippeee.....

Once again I apologize to RI for my misconception and overreaction and to all who may have been offended in the process....my sincere apologies....

[bar Jonah]

Apology accepted, shipmate. :rigreen:

[Menachem]

Apology accepted, shipmate. :rigreen:


Todah V'Shalom

Thanks and Peace!

[bar Jonah]

Shalu shalom Yisrael! :rithumb:

(Hope I said that right) :blush:

[Menachem]

Shalu shalom Yisrael! :rithumb:

(Hope I said that right) :blush:


Gotcha :thumb:

[bar Jonah]

A pal from Israel told me to say it that way, actually taught me a song with that as the title.

What do you suggest is the more correct form?

Lemme know, and we'll put this dang thread to bed, finally. :lol:

[Menachem]

that way was just fine I understood it perfectly... I usually say it as "Shaluah Shalom Y'israel" Which is the same thing....

[Sacrificial Ram]

The One God who is Truine of whom Jesus is truly God and one cannot deny God's provision for sin without denying God Himself. Those details are very important.

Is the God of Abraham Triune? Is Christ the God of Abraham?
The Christians beleive he is. The Jews do not. The Muslims do not.

Does God care if you believe he is a trinity?? Does he reject you if you don't accept that idea? Does he reject you if you accept that idea? Does God care about what magic incantation he is worshiped by?? Must you know the secret password to enter heaven? Or, is god more interested in the way you live your life? Is it by faith alone, or are the sheep seperated from the goats on the basis of their works?

It seems to me that Christians can find scripture (and do) to argue both sides of that arguement. So far, there have been many great ,long and bitter debates on that. No agreement has been reached. In recent years,
God has been strangely silent on the matter.

[Sacrificial Ram]

What if someone believes in One God that tells him that Jews are evil and they should all be killed? Is that true? Or how about One God that tells people that they must sacrifice their firstborn child to him? Is that true? The word "God" Eli is not magical - you really should know that. It is the meaning that is poured into it, and the fact is there are significant ontological differences. It is extraordinarily shallow to ignore them.
So, many people justify their bigotry and hate using God. Does that mean that God actually said this?? Many people have murdered people because
they say God hates <insert minority here>.

There have been some very Unchristian christians (such as Fred Phillips), that go out of their way to show their hatred. Just because someone claims God hates someone/something, does it mean that person actually speaks for God?

Do you think that is what God really wants?

[Orion]

Is the God of Abraham Triune?

Not according to Judaism. The Torah is very explicit in defining God as a single entity. Probably the best known expression of this is to be found here...

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

I've encountered more than a few conservative/fundamentalist Christians who profess that "one" [echad] actually means "three", as if to suggest that Jews understand neither their own scripture nor their own language.

[dizzle]

Hello - RI asked that this thread cease as it was started in his name and he wishes to stop seeing his name in active threadds

[Anitra]

In reality itself, Jesus is either God or He is not God.Correct. In reality, Jesus is either God or He is not God. In human understanding, Dee Dee thinks that in reality Jesus is God; Anitra thinks that in reality Jesus is not God.

You are a human being. I am a human being. Neither of us is God. Neither of us is Jesus.

You have your understanding of what the truth is, in reality. You have what are to you good reasons to believe that Jesus is God; if it were not so, you would be believing something else already.

I have my understanding of what the truth is, in reality. I have what are to me good reasons to believe that Jesus is not God; if it were not so, I would be believing something else already.

I do not regard myself as infallible. I could very well be wrong. If I am convinced, by good argument, that what I believe now is wrong, I will change my mind. I have not yet been convinced.

I do not regard you as infallible. You may, however, be right, because I am not infallible either. I will therefore not condemn you for being in error; but I will say when I think you are in error. I try not to do so in abusive terms.

My faith is not in my own understanding, or in yours; my faith is in God who exists, in reality. If God is true, then everyone honestly seeking truth will find God. If God is true, I need not fear critique of my own views or seeking to understand another's, because in simply seeking truth, I will be following God.

I will say what I currently believe to be the truth, just as I expect you to do. I currently believe that the abusive animosity which you demonstrate toward anyone who disagrees with your understanding of God is not the fruit of the spirit. I currently believe that your insistence that YOUR understanding of the Bible is THE correct understanding, that YOUR understanding of reality is REALITY itself, is entirely opposite to 'walking humbly with thy God.' I am speaking the truth as I see it, because I think I owe you that, out of love for you -- just as you say that you only speak the truth as you know it, out of love for others.

At one time I considered behavior such as yours to be evidence that your doctrine was wrong. I now consider that to be a logical fallacy. Intellectual ideas -- creeds and doctrines -- must be judged on their own footing. The values and actions of an individual, that individual alone is responsible for. My criticism of the way you behave is a separate issue from my criticism of the doctrine you profess. In all cases, what I say is only what I think -- just as what you say is only what you think.

I have removed the Title from this post, btw -- which anyone posting to this thread can do. We cannot change the thread title itself, although moderators are capable of doing so. But we can change our individual post titles. There is no reason to keep the title to which RI objects active in the thread.

[Anitra]

Hello - RI asked that this thread cease as it was started in his name and he wishes to stop seeing his name in active threadsThat could be solved by staring a new thread. It could also be even more easily solved by moderators, by editing the title of the thread.

Since you want to respect RI's request, Dee Dee, why do you keep using the offensive title in your own posts, when it is so easy to remove?

[Timothy Leary]

People, people : DDW is right. We are not talking about pereceptions of God. Yes, that can be different for different peoples - and it is. We are talking about what is reality - either Jesus isn't God (my view), or he is. There's no beating around the bush on this one.

[dizzle]

Anitra, do you know what it is that RI objects to? I use quick reply, you do realize that does not give the option you have, and it never occured to me to use another method. You also as well did not address the point but once again used it once again for your typical rhetoric against us misguided zealots - poor Paul he was so ABUSIVE against poor Hymeneaus. Please don't cheapen the word and please if you are going to debate me deal with the point at hand and not launch into the typical spiel. I am done until Eli tries this tactic again. When he does, I will once again debate it. Karaite you have earned a great deal of my respect. I suspect that must everyone else simply wanted to stump for their favorite hobby horse and had no intention of really dealing with my point. Pearls to you Karaite.

[Timothy Leary]

No, please read carefully. I was quoting Goose and showing that he was being a hypocrite. Unless you are going to accept the same "scholarship" about your faith since the two are very intimately connected sharing the OT - without a significant reason why - then you have no room to stand upon.

Agreed. That is one reason I will brush up on secular bible criticism from time to time (though in moderation, so I don't take on more than I can handle)

[Timothy Leary]

ANd yes, of course, we have to accept the scholarship about the O.T.
Why shouldn't we?

You're exactly right. Unfortunately, much of Orthodoxy does not, and the Haredim condemn Jews who even study such materials.

[Timothy Leary]

Unhappily for Christians, it is idolatry... because the whole concept of a "son" of God etc. goes against Judaism and is politheism (the Rambam said as much...)

So Christianity IS avoda zara...

BS. The Tanakh clearly says that a person who obeys God can be called a "son of God". However, contrary to the thoughts of some Christians (not all!), it is *not* a unique title.

[Timothy Leary]

Is this thread still going? :doh:

This thread isn't even on topic anymore... Why not create a new thread? :shrug: I'm not even in the thread anymore, but it certainly is a pain in the tuchis to see my name in the title thread pop up 20 times a day as part of a flatly false statement about me.

Howabout a new thread, Dee Dee?

Switch to daily email notification. Trust me, it's a life saver.

[Timothy Leary]

Not really: in the OT, hasatan is a function, which would translate into "prosecutor". It isn't a person or a separate member of God's court... It is also never an enemy ...

Satan as a concept in Christianity is a pagan accretion...

Gimme a minute and i'll get BCV's for ya.

[Timothy Leary]

But me, for instance recognize neither the one no the other... I have alsommy doubt as to the existence of Jesus (no historic proof of his existence exists... A sore point for 1600 years...)

Neither is there historic evidence for Abraham's existence. So what? It's a debate that can get no where.

[Timothy Leary]

Christianity has no identity apart from the headless schizophrenic body that it currently is. That is why when someone refers to someone as "Christian" today, you can't grasp what they actually believe. But you can probably wager they are very subjective.

Only if you choose to be willfully ignorant. There are some pretty basic definitions of a Christian, that are by far and by larged accepted by those who call themselves Christian.

[dizzle]

Karaite, I wish I could shake your hand. My respect for you just jumped even more and you already were very high in my estimation since our private exchange on that "pierced" thread. You are a man of integrity in my book. I started a new thread and am officially out of this one for good this time ;p)

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?p=665600#post665600

[Timothy Leary]

I can see you got your name changed cool...


actually I didn't since I am not pining over the details as Dee Dee is.....I am taking the big picture and saying that it is true....And that is that you ultimately Believe in one G-d and that is the truth...the Details are irrelivent....

Christianity was successful in bringing billions of people to knowing the G-d of Avraham. I view it as a legitimate Noachide covenant which is for gentiles not for Jews.....

Think Big picture not Details....details divide...Big picture unites...what is the big picture...."The is one G-d"...The G-d of Avraham, Yitzak, and Yakov....

Eli,

It is the details that seperate the forms of Christianity from the forms of Judaism. It is the details that make our beliefs, make us who we are!

IMO, if we accept it as you have labeled it here, there is absolutely nothing wrong with all Jews accepting Jesus as God.

[Timothy Leary]

The One God who is Truine of whom Jesus is truly God and one cannot deny God's provision for sin without denying God Himself. Those details are very important.

Is the God of Abraham Triune? Is Christ the God of Abraham?

DDW, on this sort of Issue I believe it is in our perceptions - not the identity - of what God is. I think that was handled in the Judaism & the Trinity Doctrine thread.

[bar Jonah]

Seconded, regardling Karaite! :rithumb:

And thank you for moving this conversation to a new thread! :doh:

[Timothy Leary]

It seems to me that Christians can find scripture (and do) to argue both sides of that arguement. So far, there have been many great ,long and bitter debates on that. No agreement has been reached. In recent years,
God has been strangely silent on the matter.

The same could be said of the Oral Torah.

[Timothy Leary]

Ok, Sacrificial Ram start up a new thread and I'll get those BCV's. This is my last post.

[Pitiricus]

Neither is there historic evidence for Abraham's existence. So what? It's a debate that can get no where.
But there are proofs of John the Baptist's existence... This is the real debate... Jesus may not have existed, wasn't the messiah and for 2000 years people have helped in a lie...

[Pitiricus]

BS. The Tanakh clearly says that a person who obeys God can be called a "son of God". However, contrary to the thoughts of some Christians (not all!), it is *not* a unique title.
Big difference between a son of God as somebody that obeys and a biologicval one...

[Orion]

Hello - RI asked that this thread cease as it was started in his name and he wishes to stop seeing his name in active threadds

I was responding to you, not to RI. It was you who posed the question...

Is the God of Abraham Triune?

To which I responded. Learn to accept responsibility for the content of your posts, Dee Dee.

[bar Jonah]

I was responding to you, not to RI. It was you who posed the question...

Is the God of Abraham Triune?

To which I responded. Learn to accept responsibility for the content of your posts, Dee Dee.
This conversation has been moved to another thread in this same forum, right here: Is Christianity true just for Gentiles? (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35234).

You'll find Dee Dee there, waiting for you. Shalom!

[Goose]

Only if you choose to be willfully ignorant. There are some pretty basic definitions of a Christian, that are by far and by larged accepted by those who call themselves Christian.Did you read my post? Where did I state otherwise.

[Chavak]

Right Idea said in the Islam forum that an observant Jew today is the same as a Satanist in God's eyes. I am very offended by that

I am also offended by it. I am an Orthodox Jew, and I am certainly no Satanist.
RI is ignorant or anti-semitic, take your choice.


Is that an attack on Jews?
clearly.

[John Goddard]

In Christianity rejecting Jesus is evil. In Judaism following Jesus is evil. Apples, oranges

[Chavak]

In Judaism following Jesus is evil

Only for Jews.

[John Goddard]

Only for Jews.

You can "say" that in as far as being acceptable as shituf. But if you decide on your real Messiah, then Gentiles following Jesus will likely be pretty evil.

It's not likely your Messiah is going to say "sure worship another Messiah that's cool." Is it.

[Chavak]

You can "say" that in as far as being acceptable as shituf. But if you decide on your real Messiah, then Gentiles following Jesus will likely be pretty evil.

It's not likely your Messiah is going to say "sure worship another Messiah that's cool." Is it.


We are not going to worship the messiah.
He will be a mere man, not to be worshiped nor "followed"

It is not up to us to decide who the messiah is- G-d will decide when he comes and
who he is.

[John Goddard]

We are not going to worship the messiah.
He will be a mere man, not to be worshiped nor "followed"

It is not up to us to decide who the messiah is- G-d will decide when he comes and
who he is.

Yeah I know you won't worship your Messiah. But your Messiah probably isn't going to allow open Christian worship of Jesus, if he ever comes to power. You think?

Like, is the Catholic Church going to be business as usual if your Messiah gains power over the world? I really doubt it.

So it's kind of pointless and patronizing for Jews to imply that Jesus is ok for Gentiles, just not Jews. Jesus is not going to be ok for anyone if your Messiah ever appears.

[Chavak]

Like, is the Catholic Church going to be business as usual if your Messiah gains power over the world?
How is the moshiach going to gain "power over the world"?

[/quote]
So it's kind of pointless and patronizing for Jews to imply that Jesus is ok for Gentiles, just not Jews. Jesus is not going to be ok for anyone if your Messiah ever appears.[/QUOTE]

Do we know that? Will gentiles realize the error of worshipping Jesus, repent, and
worship only the one true G-d?
Will gentiles be allowed to continue on as they
currently believe?

Zach 8:23- what's that all about?

[John Goddard]

How is the moshiach going to gain "power over the world"?

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

...

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


Do we know that? Will gentiles realize the error of worshipping Jesus, repent, and
worship only the one true G-d?
Will gentiles be allowed to continue on as they
currently believe?

I'm not Trinitarian. But whoever gets in the position of Messiah is likely not going to tolerate open promotion of another Messiah.


Zach 8:23- what's that all about?

It's about the Ten Tribes reconciled with Judah through Messiah.

1 Kings 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

[Chavak]

Personally I couldn't care less what Islam thinks of Jews
or Judaism, as long as it doesn't lead to them killing us.

They are wrong in their faith and their scriptures, but
I wouldn't be so rude as to call them satanists.

[tomsawyer25]

I agree RI (about the Christian perspective) - and through this you have proven something that very rarely is accepted among Christians - Messianic Judaism is *not* Judaism. It's beliefs are Christian, it's founders are Christian, and it's funded by Christians.

Just to show the opposite view, if we Counter-Missionaries are correct, then Christianity is Idoltary.

If being funded by Christians made one Christian, then Israel is one big Christan organization. Messianic Jews such as myself are Jewish, and I have as much right to say that as you do. We are Jews. We practice Judaism. It is one which believes on Jesus our Messiah and most Messianic Jews, though not all, would accept the same basic credal beliefs about Jesus as Christians do

Messianic Judaism, by the way, has no proper founder, unless you count Jesus and the early Jewish followers. There were quite a number of Jews in the late nineteenth century who came to know Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, and began to found congregations and teach. Most naturally had friends among the Christian community, as some of their own entirely kicked them out. So a loose movement of Messianic Jews and Hebraic Christians began to flourish. Since the late 1960's Messianic Judaism has begun to take root and grow again. We may have been extinct for over a thousand years, but God puts flesh on dry bones.

By the way, it is an excellent statement to say the Gentile Christians are Jewish in a way. I definitely see the Gentile believer as a spiritual Jew and spiritual Israel. How can we not?

Peace

Tom

[tomsawyer25]

Unhappily for Christians, it is idolatry... because the whole concept of a "son" of God etc. goes against Judaism and is politheism (the Rambam said as much...)

So Christianity IS avoda zara...

The Rambam is a philosopher. He is not my Moses. God's being present here with us appears many times in the Torah, most often as an angel. Either the men of God who called the angel God were idolatrous, or we can rightfully call God's presence here and now YHVH. One of the two. To fall on our face before the Messiah, and call Him YHVH is not a strange other-cultural idea. It is in the Torah and the prophets. It is God's instructions to us.

By the way, Maimonides did not think much of Kabbalah's corporatizing of the god-head. Do you consider Kabbalah Jewish mysticism, or do you consider it blasphemy?

Peace

Tom

[John D. Brey]

Hi Tom,

Messianic Jews such as myself are Jewish, and I have as much right to say that as you do. We are Jews. We practice Judaism. It is one which believes on Jesus our Messiah and most Messianic Jews, though not all, would accept the same basic credal beliefs about Jesus as Christians do.

"Messianic Jew" and "Christian" are a contradiction in terms. There are no "Jews" nor "Gentiles" in the Body of Christ.

The crucifixion of the "Jewish" messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) did more than just postpone the establishment of a Kingdom of God, reigned over by a human messiah, it instituted a whole new plan formerly unknown to any creature in the cosmos. The "Christian" is a new creation in Christ Jesus. He cannot be a "Jew" and he cannot be a "Gentile." . . He is a Christian.

After the resurrection of the Church (the new creation in Christ Jesus) then "Jews" will come to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. But, these Jews will not be Christians since after the resurrection of the Church, there will never again be another Christian; that Body will have already been brought to completion.


Dan

[John D. Brey]

IF Christianity is true, that means all other religions are anti-God. Which would mean all other religions are the religions of Lucifer, Satan, Shaitan, etc. Does that mean a non-Messianic Jew today intentionally worships Satan?

If Christianity is true, then ALL religions are something other than Christianity. ---- Christianity is that new creation in Christ which deconstructs all religion.

To turn Christianity into a "religion" opposed to Judaism is satanic. ---- Christianity is not a "religion" and it is not opposed to Judaism.


Dan

[tomsawyer25]

Hi Tom,



"Messianic Jew" and "Christian" are a contradiction in terms. There are no "Jews" nor "Gentiles" in the Body of Christ.

The crucifixion of the "Jewish" messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) did more than just postpone the establishment of a Kingdom of God, reigned over by a human messiah, it instituted a whole new plan formerly unknown to any creature in the cosmos. The "Christian" is a new creation in Christ Jesus. He cannot be a "Jew" and he cannot be a "Gentile." . . He is a Christian.

After the resurrection of the Church (the new creation in Christ Jesus) then "Jews" will come to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. But, these Jews will not be Christians since after the resurrection of the Church, there will never again be another Christian; that Body will have already been brought to completion.


Dan


Can you tell me from what chapter and verses you are getting this worldview? Are you interpreting this way the passage which says there is neither Jew nor Greek, man nor woman, slave nor free in Christ?

Great passage, but I believe you are misinterpreting it. I have no more ceased being Jewish than I have ceased being a man or ceased being subordinate in authority to my current employer.

Equality in Christ regards to equality in the eyes of God as well as promoting a loving attitute which can break down some of the hard barriers which separate us. Even in the future when there will be eventualy a greater closeness between the Jewish people and spiritual Israel, I see no scriptural reason to believe we would lose all distinction.

Believing in the Jsus is a part of Judaism, not a renunciation.

[John D. Brey]

Equality in Christ regards to equality in the eyes of God as well as promoting a loving attitute which can break down some of the hard barriers which separate us. Even in the future when there will be eventualy a greater closeness between the Jewish people and spiritual Israel, I see no scriptural reason to believe we would lose all distinction.

Believing in the Jsus is a part of Judaism, not a renunciation.

Judaism does not, and cannot, believe in an incarnate God. Judaism excommunicates any "Jew" who believes Jesus is God.

Christianity on the other hand, acknowledges not only that Jesus is God in the flesh, but that the Christian will receive not just a resurrected biological body, but a spiritual body like Christs. No Jew prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ knew anything about receiving a spiritual body like Christs. They will all receive a resurrection of their biological body. They will all inhabit planet earth in a terrestrial body.

We on the other hand, believers in Christ, will receive a body like the resurrected Christ. We will not inhabit planet earth. We will not be terrestrial beings. We will be divine beings like Christ.

Furthermore, once the Body of Christ is resurrected, no one will ever again be a member of Christ's Body. When Judaism finally gets around to accepting Jesus as the Messiah, it will be too late to become members of the Body of Christ, since that Body will have already been completed and resurrected. The Jewish believer post-rapture of the Church will remain a Jew, and will receive a resurrected terrestrial body. He will not receive a Body like the Christian.

The Christian is a new creation in Christ. He is an alien to this planet, a true extra-terrestrial. ----- The Jew is not that. He is God's people to people planet earth.

There is a world of difference between a Jew and a Christian.

The idea of a "Messianic" Jewish Christian supposes that a Jew who accepts Christ before the completion of the Church Age (the calling out of the Body of Christ) could somehow be resurrected as a terrestrial being, while all his gentile counterparts receive a body like Christs. --- That would be absurd and utterly unfair.


Dan

[Gavriel]

Right Idea said in the Islam forum that an observant Jew today is the same as a Satanist in God's eyes. I am very offended by that. Is that an attack on Jews? I am curious about what the Jewish posters here think.

Well it's nonsense, but "Right Idea" has zero bearing in my life, so his opinion is worthless.

[tomsawyer25]

Judaism does not, and cannot, believe in an incarnate God. Judaism excommunicates any "Jew" who believes Jesus is God.

Christianity on the other hand, acknowledges not only that Jesus is God in the flesh, but that the Christian will receive not just a resurrected biological body, but a spiritual body like Christs. No Jew prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ knew anything about receiving a spiritual body like Christs. They will all receive a resurrection of their biological body. They will all inhabit planet earth in a terrestrial body.

We on the other hand, believers in Christ, will receive a body like the resurrected Christ. We will not inhabit planet earth. We will not be terrestrial beings. We will be divine beings like Christ.

Furthermore, once the Body of Christ is resurrected, no one will ever again be a member of Christ's Body. When Judaism finally gets around to accepting Jesus as the Messiah, it will be too late to become members of the Body of Christ, since that Body will have already been completed and resurrected. The Jewish believer post-rapture of the Church will remain a Jew, and will receive a resurrected terrestrial body. He will not receive a Body like the Christian.

The Christian is a new creation in Christ. He is an alien to this planet, a true extra-terrestrial. ----- The Jew is not that. He is God's people to people planet earth.

There is a world of difference between a Jew and a Christian.

The idea of a "Messianic" Jewish Christian supposes that a Jew who accepts Christ before the completion of the Church Age (the calling out of the Body of Christ) could somehow be resurrected as a terrestrial being, while all his gentile counterparts receive a body like Christs. --- That would be absurd and utterly unfair.


Dan

I do not stop being Jewish just because the bulk of Jews do an informal "excommunication"as you put it. I am rejected -- that is accurate, -- but I do not stop being Jewish. Yeshuah came to the Jewish people first, and to believe in Him is the most profoundly Jewish thing one can do.

As far as your whole interpretation of events, I'd like to see you quote passages to support your interpretation of this Christian = extraterrestrial and Jew= earthbound people of God. Where exactly do you find this in scripture, or are you just joking?

Romans 11 deals a lot with relationships between Gentile Christians and Jews, and states that Gentiles will be grafted into the tree. That tree is Israel. A grafting in would be rather difficult to do if a lot of people are on another world.

The blindness of Israel towards Yeshuah is clearly spoken of by Paul as a temporary thing here, and I see no indication that an Israel under the Messiah would not be close to the Gentile world.

If you expect people to believe that, you ought to show where that comes from in scripture. As far as I am concerned, I see no positive evidence for it, and Romans 11 pretty well knocks it out as a possibility.

Take care

Tom

[Gavriel]

I do not stop being Jewish just because the bulk of Jews do an informal "excommunication"as you put it. I am rejected -- that is accurate, -- but I do not stop being Jewish. Yeshuah came to the Jewish people first, and to believe in Him is the most profoundly Jewish thing one can do.

If you are infact Jewish, yes you never stop becoming Jewish, you would simply be an apostate, or in Biblical terms cut off.

[John D. Brey]

Hi Tom,

I do not stop being Jewish just because the bulk of Jews do an informal "excommunication"as you put it. I am rejected -- that is accurate, -- but I do not stop being Jewish. Yeshuah came to the Jewish people first, and to believe in Him is the most profoundly Jewish thing one can do.

God held a mystery from Satan and the fallen angels, a mystery that they were willing to kill to obtain. The Kingdom of God was to be postponed so that God could call out a heavenly army hidden underneath the skin of Messiah . . . unveiled at his macrocosmic bris . . . the crucifixion. ---- In other words, it was foreordained that Israel would not receive the Messiah the first go-round. It was all part of the plan to deceive Satan and foil his plot to rule the world forever and ever.

To believe in Jesus, Yeshuah (as you call him) is the most unJewish thing one can do. They, of all people, have been blinded not to see the glory of God in Christ Jesus. Satan has marshalled his greatest forces against God's people Israel. He has succeded in blinding them to their Messiah . . . but only for a time. When they do receive their Lord and Savior it will nulify all the work Satan put into blinding them. They will all be saved.

Since Satan has employed supernatural power in opposition to the Jewish people, God will overlook their blindness in His everlasting love for them. He is calling out a supernatural body/army to literally unseat Satan from his high position in the heavenly realm.

You are a part of that heavenly army. You may be ethnically Jewish, but if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you are a part of the mystery hidden in Christ Jesus: That God has hidden a supernatural people under Jesus' flesh . . . so that when Satan removed the flesh . . . he unleashed all hell. . . Literally.

Once this supernatural army is complete . . . once it has the necessary breadth and width and height to completely overpower Satan and his supernatural army, God will resurrect that supernatural body and there will be a cosmic battle in heaven to unseat Satan and his armies.

The removal of the Satanic forces in heaven will be the removal of the veil blinding Israel from her beloved Lord and Savior. She will at that time see him, as she might have seen him long ago, and the completion of the covenant to Israel will be readied.



Dan

[tomsawyer25]

Hi Tom,



God held a mystery from Satan and the fallen angels, a mystery that they were willing to kill to obtain. The Kingdom of God was to be postponed so that God could call out a heavenly army hidden underneath the skin of Messiah . . . unveiled at his macrocosmic bris . . . the crucifixion. ---- In other words, it was foreordained that Israel would not receive the Messiah the first go-round. It was all part of the plan to deceive Satan and foil his plot to rule the world forever and ever.

To believe in Jesus, Yeshuah (as you call him) is the most unJewish thing one can do. They, of all people, have been blinded not to see the glory of God in Christ Jesus. Satan has marshalled his greatest forces against God's people Israel. He has succeded in blinding them to their Messiah . . . but only for a time. When they do receive their Lord and Savior it will nulify all the work Satan put into blinding them. They will all be saved.

Since Satan has employed supernatural power in opposition to the Jewish people, God will overlook their blindness in His everlasting love for them. He is calling out a supernatural body/army to literally unseat Satan from his high position in the heavenly realm.

You are a part of that heavenly army. You may be ethnically Jewish, but if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you are a part of the mystery hidden in Christ Jesus: That God has hidden a supernatural people under Jesus' flesh . . . so that when Satan removed the flesh . . . he unleashed all hell. . . Literally.

Once this supernatural army is complete . . . once it has the necessary breadth and width and height to completely overpower Satan and his supernatural army, God will resurrect that supernatural body and there will be a cosmic battle in heaven to unseat Satan and his armies.

The removal of the Satanic forces in heaven will be the removal of the veil blinding Israel from her beloved Lord and Savior. She will at that time see him, as she might have seen him long ago, and the completion of the covenant to Israel will be readied.



Dan

It seems you are getting most of your claims from your imagination. Not from the Bible. There really isn't much point in continuing the discussion based on Biblical teaching if you don't care at all about it. Please mention where those claims come from in the Bible, or just skip them entirely.

To regard faith in Yeshuah as unJewish is based on seeing Judaism through its mistakes, not through its calling as Israel. As a Jewish person, Jesus called me, just as He called Gentiles. My fellow kin who reject our Messiah are the ones being unJewish.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah

Tom

[John D. Brey]

It seems you are getting most of your claims from your imagination. Not from the Bible.

. . . I would then question how well you know the Bible?


Dan