Dan 9-11 | The Timing of Messiah

[Cherith]

In another thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30804) I asserted that only an ancient Jew - namely Jesus - could have fulfilled the prophecies in the book of Daniel. To this Eli responded:
The only problem I find with this assesment is that the calendar being used is the Jewish Calendar and not the gregorian calendar. Which would put us right in line with the maccabean revolt.

Also there are translation issues above such as the improper translation of "Mashiakh" as "messiah", which would translate better as "anointed one" and "kedosh HaKedoshim" as "most holy" would be better translated as "Holy of Holies."

...[see his translation below]...

also the timeline can be found here with a good explanation

http://messiahtruth.com/daniel9.html

this site gives a good explanation of the events and it gives a timeline also at the bottom.

The sheer usage and application of the Jewish calendar(which was used by Daniel) not the gregorian calendar the claim to jesus having fulfilled this does not stand.

The anointed prince who gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem was Cyrus who in the book of Ezra chapter 1 gave the order for the city to be rebuilt.

The people of the prince that came to destroy everything was that of Alexander the Great. Who came and destroyed much of the city.

The anointed one cut off was a murdered High Priest just before the Maccabean revolt named Onias II.

The one who made a strong covenant with many was Antiocus Epiphanes with which he halted sacrifices to G-d, and offered an abominable sacrifice(a pig) on the altar.

The decreed destruction that was poured out on the desolator was that of the Revot against Antiochus Epiphanes(the desolator) thus named the Maccabean Revolt.

when you add it all up jesus doesn't make much sense in there..
I would like to revisit this issue and explore it in depth - particularly the chronology. I anticipate this being an extremely long thread from the outset and having to include spreadsheet links and/or attached images to "get the big picture." To begin I want to compare an average Christian translation with a Jewish one. (I'm including the way I rendered Dan 9:24-27 in my comments along with the way Eli rendered it. I have used bold text to compare the points in question.) I have to go out for a few hours, but I hope to pick this up and expand on the differences when I return.


Christian Translation - mine
"Seventy sevens are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint The Most Holy. {25} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. {26} And AFTER threescore and two sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. {27} And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one seven: and in the midst of the seven He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." --Dan 9:24-27
Jewish Translation - Eli's
"Seventy weeks are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. {25} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem until the coming of an anointed prince shall be seven weeks; then for sixty two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. {26} And after sixty two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and nothing will be left to him; and the people of a prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are decreed {27} And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.
NIV Translation
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. {25} "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. {26} After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. {27} He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
MessiahTruth.com's Translation
"Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away inequity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. {25} Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem until an anointed prince will be seven septets; and for sixty two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times. {26} Then, after the sixty two septets, an anointed one will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of a prince will come, and will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but its end will be like a flood. Then, until the end of war, desolation is decreed. {27} He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet; but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal offering, and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute abomination.

[dizzle]

Verse 9:24 destroys any clever denials of the messianic thrust of the prophecy. It is at this point when faced with the evidence that there is simply willfull denial.

Cherith I would suggest if I were you, because I know the lure this will be to certain liberal types, that you make the request that any suggestion that Daniel simply wrote after the fact to fabricate prophecy be not part of this thread.

[Cherith]

...request that any suggestion that Daniel simply wrote after the fact to fabricate prophecy be not part of this thread.

Sounds like a wonderful suggestion, thanks. I didn't even consider that... I would prefer that only those who have a high view of Scripture participate. Actually, I'd love for only Jewish Twebbers - Eli, Yoshi, Raine, etc. - to participate, but that's probably asking too much...?

[Pitiricus]

Did you consider that in the Jewish tradition Daniel is not a prophet?

[dizzle]

Sounds like a wonderful suggestion, thanks. I didn't even consider that... I would prefer that only those who have a high view of Scripture participate. Actually, I'd love for only Jewish Twebbers - Eli, Yoshi, Raine, etc. - to participate, but that's probably asking too much...?
You may request whatever you wish. That would of course also exclude me, but whatever is your wish.

[dizzle]

Did you consider that in the Jewish tradition Daniel is not a prophet?
We are examining the text. The fact is that he gave prophecies. I don't care ifyou call him a peanut butter sandwich.

[Pitiricus]

It is very relevant, because somebody who isn't a prophet cannot give a real prophecy.

[dizzle]

You deny that Daniel gave prophecy? Or did he give fake ones?

[Pitiricus]

Yes... He wasn't a prophet... As simple as that!


And of course, given that Jesus, if he ever existed, wasn't the messiah, he especially couldn't say anything about a MAN who may or may nor have existed... I tend to believe he didn't... But then maybe he did ... But he wasn't the messiah!

[dizzle]

You really just cannot help spewing at every opportunity can you? Settle down we will get to that.

What is your definition of prophecy?

[Pitiricus]

A prophet is basically a spokesman for God, a person chosen by God to speak to people on God's behalf and convey a message or teaching. Prophets were role models of holiness, scholarship and closeness to God. They set the standards for the entire community.

The Hebrew word for a prophet, navi comes from the term niv sefatayim meaning "fruit of the lips," which emphasizes the prophet's role as a speaker. The Talmud teaches that there were hundreds of thousands of prophets: twice as many as the number of people who left Egypt, which was 600,000. But most of the prophets conveyed messages that were intended solely for their own generation... Scripture identifies only 55 prophets of Israel.

[dizzle]

A prophet is basically a spokesman for God, a person chosen by God to speak to people on God's behalf and convey a message or teaching. Prophets were role models of holiness, scholarship and closeness to God. They set the standards for the entire community.

The Hebrew word for a prophet, navi comes from the term niv sefatayim meaning "fruit of the lips," which emphasizes the prophet's role as a speaker. The Talmud teaches that there were hundreds of thousands of prophets: twice as many as the number of people who left Egypt, which was 600,000. But most of the prophets conveyed messages that were intended solely for their own generation... Scripture identifies only 55 prophets of Israel.
I didn't ask for your definition of a prophet. I ask for your definiton of prophecy. By the way Daniel qualifies for the above (and I think you have committed a basic error of assuming that since the book of Daniel is not included in the Prophets that he was not considered a prophet - but we can get to that)

What is your definition of prophecy?

[Pitiricus]

A prophecy can only be given by a prophet... So anything said by Daniel has no standing as prophecy...


Including the supposed timing of the coming of the messiah, IF he ever said it...

[dizzle]

Don't want to answer the question do you? I will ask again, O Slippery One, what is your definnition of a prophecy?

[Pitiricus]

Sorry to disappoint you... I answered... You don't like the answer? Your problem...


It seems that you have not yet understood that for Jews the whole Jesus cult is idolatry ... So to try and put it in the Tanakh is trying to put a square peg in a round hole...

Same with trying to find Jesus in each and every text... He isn't there... The idea of messiah didn't come into Judaism before the first exile... And a politheistic idea of three gods never came ever... Even worse, the anthropomorphism of a "son" of God and a "wife" of God...

But when all is said and done, this is what Christianity is... Now it is the right of anybody to believe in anything... But not to say that others don't understand their own scriptures and definitions. Christianity is as much a children of the Pagan world as of Judaism. But Paganism never infiltrated Judaism, at least the literate part.

[Goose]

Pitirucus is correct. Daniel was not a Navi. Daniel was a see'er of revelations and interpretor of dreams. A Ro'eh and a Navi are different.

[dizzle]

Can't answer? :lmbo:

What is that sound? Hold on... lemme go check.....





oh that's just your credibility in debate going down the toilet.

carry on

[dizzle]

Pitirucus is correct. Daniel was not a Navi. Daniel was a see'er of revelations and interpretor of dreams. A Ro'eh and a Navi are different.
Goose please speak in Gentile so that I can understand.

And what is the difference, I do not know.

And please tell me what a prophecy is unlike our slippery friend.

[Goose]

A Navi is someone that speaks on behalf of HaShem. A Ro'eh is a see'er. However, it must be noted the that a Navi is not "possessed". The Navi keeps their own personality, own thoughts etc. They are just compelled to speak, whether by action or voice.

A Ro'eh is usually given their gift by HaShem.

A Navi is usually just called. It's not really considered a gift.

[dizzle]

I still don't understand Goose. Please explicate in greater detail and explain terms please

[Goose]

I still don't understand Goose. Please explicate in greater detail and explain terms pleaseA Navi speaks on behalf of HaShem.

A Roeh is a see'er of visions or dreams.

I don't think I can go into much detail on something so simple. Is there a specific understanding or problem with one of the definitions? Maybe you could elaborate on what you don't get.

[Cherith]

This is utterly ridiculous! Look, here is the link to the definition in the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=554&letter=P&search=prophecy), here is Webster's definition (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=prophecy&x=0&y=0), here is the definition at Infoplease (http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0606193.html), and here is what is online at JewFaq.org (http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm).

In short, prophecy MUST BE connected to being a prophet if for no other reason than they are derived from the same root word! To say that Daniel's "mission was not that of a prophet" because "his visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations" is patently absurd! Written down for what purpose!?! Anything written down - especially a divine vision of the future from the King of kings and Lord of lords - is a proclaimation (http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0604704.html)!

O, to be a Jew and constantly feel the need to strive about words! (2 Tim 2:14)

Can we please move on? Because I'm with Dee, I don't particularly care if you call him a peanut butter sandwich, it still doesn't change the NATURE of WHAT he uttered!

P.S. Besides, Eli used the word "prophecy" in his translation of Dan 9:24. The word translated by Eli as "prophecy" is the same word translated as "prophet" in Dan 9:2 and "prophets" in Dan 9:6 and Dan 9:10.

[Cherith]

The only problem I find with this assesment is that the calendar being used is the Jewish Calendar and not the gregorian calendar. Which would put us right in line with the maccabean revolt.
I have a problem with this too, Eli, because after these last few weeks of research I find no reason for any thinking person - Jew or otherwise - to hold to the Jewish Calendar. But perhaps you misspoke? Did you mean to say that your problem was not with using the Jewish Calendar but rather with using the Gregorian? Because if that's the case we can start there. In fact, I would love to start there! I'll then feel free to use the things I found online at http://groups.msn.com/JudaismFAQs/history.msnw.

Actually, I thought that Shlomo Istov's (is that a Slovenian name?) idea that "by using the Jewish calendar, we avoid having to calculate across an unnatural border when the secular calendar changes from " was originally a good idea. It certainly is easier to "calculate" dates that way. But, I solved the problem by using the "fill, series" feature in my spreadsheet program. One can simply enter a year and tell the program to "fill" the next rows in using a "series" of +1 year for each row or -1 year for each row. Using this feature we arrive at Eli's astounding conclusion that the 490 years (70x7) of Dan 9:24 culminating in "the Maccabean revolt" began in 606 B.C. - 20 yrs before the Temple was destroyed! But not only that, according to Eli's reckoning, the 490 yrs started some 67 years before Cyrus even came to power over Judea! In fact, if Eli does want to use the Seder Olam reckoning of events then he will have to extract 165 or so years from Persian history thus putting the beginning of the 490 years just that much further BACK in history! (Say around 771 B.C.!!!)

Daniel 9:1-2 begins the "prophecy":

"[b]In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; {2} In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."

Daniel is not only proclaiming to his readers WHEN he received the vision, but that he UNDERSTOOD that the 70 yrs of captivity (i.e. desolation of Jerusalem) was coming to an end. This directly contradicts Mr. Istov's assertion that "Daniel’s problem is that although able to interpret visions and dreams, he is not a prophet. He doesn’t understand the prophecies of Jeremiah. He has tried to calculate them, but has misunderstood." Dan 10:1 repeats for the reader the fact that Daniel "understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision."

[Orion]

To the best of my knowledge, the idea that Daniel 9 predicts the date of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem is the product of one Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918) who served as an investigator for Scotland Yard and who was also an amateur Bible scholar. He published his findings in a book entitled The Coming Prince. I've read the book (it's online, BTW) as well as critiques of the book. In my opinion, Anderson's thesis is a perfect example of the fact that if you begin with an arbitrary starting date and factor in an arbitrary number of days and then fudge the ending date, you can arrive at whatever date you wish.

I note also that I'm unable to find reference to Daniel's 70 weeks of years prophecy anywhere in the NT, (I'm obviously willing to be corrected on this) which suggests to me that the authors of the NT failed to make any connection between Daniel 9 and Jesus.

[Cherith]

In my opinion, Anderson's thesis is a perfect example of the fact that if you begin with an arbitrary starting date and factor in an arbitrary number of days and then fudge the ending date, you can arrive at whatever date you wish.I whole-heartedly agree Orion, but I am not out to defend Sir Robert Anderson's - or any other Christian's - chronology. Right now, I'm simply disputing the Jewish chronology. And I know for a fact that John Calvin predates Anderson and viewed the 490 yrs of Daniel as a reference to the Messianic claims of Jesus. However, this is the very thing that I think ancient Judaism did. Mitchell First writes in his book Jewish History in Conflict that:

"..the chronology of the Sages can be completely explained. What happened is that the Sages saw [what they thought was] a prediction in the book of Daniel [9:24-27] that a certain time period would span 490 years. The beginning and end points of the 490 year period referred to are ambiguous. For various reasons, the Sages interpreted the beginning and endpoints to be the destruction of the First Temple and the Destruction of the Second Temple. Once they adopted this interpretation...and believed that the prediction must have come true, they were constrained by other data known to them regarding the length of period from the destruction to the rebuilding (70 years), and the total length of the Greek, Hasmonean and Roman periods (386 years). This forced them to state a length for the period from the rebuilding under Darius until the beginning of Greek rule that was shorter than they otherwise should have.."

First, being a Jew himself, probably gave his sages the benefit of the doubt regarding their motives. I would be quicker to ascribe a more devilish reason for their trying to "speak against the most High, wear out the saints...and think to change times and laws" :blush:

I would also agree that the beginning and end points of the 490 yr "prophecy" are ambiguous in Daniel as well; HOWEVER, I would at least put their beginning AFTER the revelation of the vision and not 50, 100 or 200 years before! The fact of the matter is that "vision and prophecy" HAS been "sealed up" or "confirmed" and one would have to at least admit that that occurred prior to A.D. 70, the destruction of the temple, the end of the Davidic and Aaronic lines, etc., no?

[Timothy Leary]

We are examining the text. The fact is that he gave prophecies. I don't care ifyou call him a peanut butter sandwich.

This is one case I'm going to have to agree with DDW - Daniel was a prophet in the English sense of the word. Since he didn't give any prophecies directed towards to Israel (as a people), it's debatable whether we could call him on in the Hebrew sense of the word. However, it's all a moot issue to me.

[Timothy Leary]

I hate to dissapoint you Cherith, but I will not be parcitipating in this debate on the following grounds

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer.

One thing that is interesting to note though, is that it seems that Daniel himself has a place in these prophecies, as it says in the last verse "But you, go on to the end; you shall rest, and arise to your destiny at the end of they days." (NJPS translation)

[Cherith]

Oh Yoshi, I had SO wished that YOU would participate. You seem to be the only level-headed thinking person around these days...(Prov 16:7) I do hope that you'll at least read the posts. Surely IF the "prediction" involved the coming of the messiah THEN it should be relevant to your position too? And I'm perfectly willing to stick with the just the Text and history...

I agree about Daniel's inclusion, but that would presuppose the doctrine of resurrection, wouldn't it? And Raine seemed kind of screwed up about whether resurrection was a biblical/Jewish doctrine or not. :offtopic:

SIDENOTE: The Christian response to "the many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth" in Dan 12:2 would be Matt 27:50-53:

"Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. {51} And, behold, the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; {52} And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, {53} And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Before any Jew replies that they reject Matthew's history, let me just remind them that initiating a resurrection seems to be the province of Michael ("Who is like God?"), The Great Prince (a descendant of David?) who "confirms/arises/appoints/establishes/endures" etc. for the (implied) TRUE children/offspring of Israel (cp. Dan 12:3, 10).

I specifically didn't include chapter 12 because of these verses, but Dan 12:11-12 hearkens back to the taking away of the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination that causes desolation. And they talk about a period of roughly 3½+ years. How long were the Jews without a daily sacrifice, Eli? And what significance does the 40+ days following the 3½ yrs represent? (I don't really want to get into this here, just for it to be in the back of everyone's mind when we get to considering the chronology of events. Incidentally, Orion, these verses from Daniel ARE quoted in the N.C. and BTW, Jesus - an ancient Jew - DID consider Daniel a "prophet" - see Matt 24:15. Presumably He wasn't the only ancient Jew who did...) :offtopic:

[dizzle]

A Navi speaks on behalf of HaShem.

A Roeh is a see'er of visions or dreams.

I don't think I can go into much detail on something so simple. Is there a specific understanding or problem with one of the definitions? Maybe you could elaborate on what you don't get.
I am trying to find out if there is any substantive difference to this distinction for purposes of this thread. A vision or dream may be of future events correct?

Can you please give your definition of prophecy?

Of course we can just skip this for in fact I have never seen Pitri actually interact with the points thus I have classifed him right now untilhe proves otherwise as a troll. We all have them. Jewish, Christian, atheist.

What was funny was when he got all fired up and said the problem was that I don't want to hear that Christians are idolators according to Jewish belief. He showed his ignorance for in the very threads that he said that, I had earlier insisted to Eli that such is exactly what the Jewish positio should be if they are to be consistent. I much prefer that than to the nonsense that Christianity is true for Gentiles but not for Jews. If Christianity is wrong, it is rank idolatry and blasphemy and is not true for anyone. Any other position is nonsense, and I despise nonsense.

[dizzle]

I hate to dissapoint you Cherith, but I will not be parcitipating in this debate on the following grounds
That is higly disappointing as you are right now the only Jewish poster in this area that I have debating respect for. Goose I like a whole lot and we have a history together that binds us together in friendship, but he has not shown yet fairness in debate. Eli I think lacks critical thinkingn skills though I like him. Pitri is a troll until he starts reading threads and dealing with actual points rather than repeating his one-pony-track antimissionary spiel.

[Timothy Leary]

Don't be dissing on Raine when she's not here... *smack*

Raine might give you the impression that she doesn't believe in a ressurection/afterlife, but it's more or less the way she is wording it that makes it seem that way. She is trying to emphasize what we do in *this life*, in contrast to worrying about the next 24/7 until you go paranoid.

[Pitiricus]

I am trying to find out if there is any substantive difference to this distinction for purposes of this thread. A vision or dream may be of future events correct?

Can you please give your definition of prophecy?

Of course we can just skip this for in fact I have never seen Pitri actually interact with the points thus I have classifed him right now untilhe proves otherwise as a troll. We all have them. Jewish, Christian, atheist.

What was funny was when he got all fired up and said the problem was that I don't want to hear that Christians are idolators according to Jewish belief. He showed his ignorance for in the very threads that he said that, I had earlier insisted to Eli that such is exactly what the Jewish positio should be if they are to be consistent. I much prefer that than to the nonsense that Christianity is true for Gentiles but not for Jews. If Christianity is wrong, it is rank idolatry and blasphemy and is not true for anyone. Any other position is nonsense, and I despise nonsense.

Sorry to disappoint, but no less an authority than the Rambam has said that Christians ARE idolators... I know you don't want to hear that, but it's true...

Of course trying to fit Jesus and Christianity inside Judaism is alos trolling... So please, look in the mirror!

[Timothy Leary]

Holy Crap, do you even read a single thing that has been posted in this thread? Seriously.

DDW JUST SAID THAT THE RAMBAM'S POSITION WAS THE ONLY CONSISTENT ONE FOR JUDAISM TO HAVE!

[dizzle]

Thank you Karaite. Pitri doesn't read what was said. This has always been my position.

I am beginning to think he is an antimissionary bot. Don't sweat it Karaite, we got Christian bots too.

[Pitiricus]

Holy Crap, do you even read a single thing that has been posted in this thread? Seriously.

DDW JUST SAID THAT THE RAMBAM'S POSITION WAS THE ONLY CONSISTENT ONE FOR JUDAISM TO HAVE!Of course not... But it is one of the positions taken by Judaism vis-à-vis Christianity...

Another one is the one found in the Talmud, where ben Pandera is seen as an apostate who engaged in the crime of trying to make Israel deviate from God. Of course this could have been written in Babylon, far from Rome and Christianity.

But the question here is ""Does Daniel ...". Well the anwer is two-fold: Jesus wasn't the Messiah and Daniel wasn't a prophet...

[Cherith]

DDW, does the "IGNORE" feature prevent you from SEEING ignorant and irrelevant posters/posts or does it simply keep them from PM'ing you?

[Menachem]

I am trying to find out if there is any substantive difference to this distinction for purposes of this thread. A vision or dream may be of future events correct?

Can you please give your definition of prophecy?

Of course we can just skip this for in fact I have never seen Pitri actually interact with the points thus I have classifed him right now untilhe proves otherwise as a troll. We all have them. Jewish, Christian, atheist.

What was funny was when he got all fired up and said the problem was that I don't want to hear that Christians are idolators according to Jewish belief. He showed his ignorance for in the very threads that he said that, I had earlier insisted to Eli that such is exactly what the Jewish positio should be if they are to be consistent. I much prefer that than to the nonsense that Christianity is true for Gentiles but not for Jews. If Christianity is wrong, it is rank idolatry and blasphemy and is not true for anyone. Any other position is nonsense, and I despise nonsense.


actually the Jewish position for the longest time is that it recognizes more than one path to G-d..We are not as exclusive as christianity in the regards of religion. My illustration of the African Shamen in the other thread is the Jewish position.. He adhered to a basic Jewish and Christian Ideal and according to Judaism he is welcomed into heaven for being a rightous gentile....Judaism doesnt even make it a prerequisite for Gentiles to believe in G-d to make it to Heaven.....That is a standpoint for Judaism ask any Rabbi in any movement....it feels so much better not playing D.A.(Devils advocate)

P.S. Besides, Eli used the word "prophecy" in his translation of Dan 9:24. The word translated by Eli as "prophecy" is the same word translated as "prophet" in Dan 9:2 and "prophets" in Dan 9:6 and Dan 9:10.

The reason I used the word Prophesy instead of prophet was to make sense of the passage. Navi can be used within context to say prophesy. for example a literal translation of the hebrew woudl read this:

ולחתם חזונ ונביא ולמשח קדש קדושים


"and to seal up the visions and prophet, to anoint the Holy of Holies" would just not make sense

the thing about Hebrew is that you have to make sense of it before you can translate it.

Navi can be used in the context provided as Prophesy becasue the other would make little sense. Its not wrong to read it that way but it makes little sense.

So I would render it as "and to seal up the visions and the prophesy, to anoint the Holy of Holies..."

alternatively I could also read the word for "sealed" חתם as "to close", "to sign(as in confirmation)" and a few others....

I could read this as "and to close vision and prophecy" also "to confirm visions and prophecy." or you could read it that way and literally translate Navi as prophet saying " to confim the vision and prophet" or it could say " and confirm [the] vision of [the] prophet..."

we can couple this with verse 2 of chapter nine...to get the prophet Jeremiah "In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which about which the word of Hashem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the ruin of Yerushalem"


The word "Navi" when in reference to a person or more than one persons carry the translations of prophet and prophets, respectively. When referring to something that is not a person, but an Idea it can take the meaning of Prophesy...

[Goose]

"The term navi, translated in the Septuagint by the Greek word propheiteis ('prophet'), which means 'one who speaks on behalf of' or 'to speak for' rather than 'before'), is a 'forthteller' and spokesman more than a 'foreteller' and prognosticator." ("Prophets and Prophecy," Ency. Jud., 13.1153).

"The preclassical נביאים (neviyim) are referred to by four different עברית(Hebrew) titles: חוזה (khozeih; visionary or envisioner), רואה (ro·eih; seer, one who sees), איש האלהים (ish ha-Elohim; man of אלהים) and נביא (navi; spokesman or forthteller, popularly "prophet"; EJ 1154).

It would remove a lot of mystery and confusion if נביא were consistently rendered by the more accurate term: "spokesman." שמואל א 9.9(Samuel I 9:9) clarifies that "He who is now [ca. B.C.E. 1060] called a נביא(navi) was formerly called a רואה(see'er)" (loc. cit.). דניאל(Daniel), however, lived centuries later, ca. B.C.E. 275; hence, a chronological conundrum.

The bottom line is that דניאל(Daniel) is in a class by himself because he is distinguished beyond, not inferior to, the other נביאים(neviyim). I'm not sure I'd call it a sub or super set compared with the neviyim.

[dizzle]

Thank you Goose. It seems then that Pitri was blowing smoke when it gets to the real issue and not picking nits.

[Menachem]

"The term navi, translated in the Septuagint by the Greek word propheiteis ('prophet'), which means 'one who speaks on behalf of' or 'to speak for' rather than 'before'), is a 'forthteller' and spokesman more than a 'foreteller' and prognosticator." ("Prophets and Prophecy," Ency. Jud., 13.1153).

"The preclassical נביאים (neviyim) are referred to by four different עברית(Hebrew) titles: חוזה (khozeih; visionary or envisioner), רואה (ro·eih; seer, one who sees), איש האלהים (ish ha-Elohim; man of אלהים) and נביא (navi; spokesman or forthteller, popularly "prophet"; EJ 1154).

It would remove a lot of mystery and confusion if נביא were consistently rendered by the more accurate term: "spokesman." שמואל א 9.9(Samuel I 9:9) clarifies that "He who is now [ca. B.C.E. 1060] called a נביא(navi) was formerly called a רואה(see'er)" (loc. cit.). דניאל(Daniel), however, lived centuries later, ca. B.C.E. 275; hence, a chronological conundrum.

The bottom line is that דניאל(Daniel) is in a class by himself because he is distinguished beyond, not inferior to, the other נביאים(neviyim). I'm not sure I'd call it a sub or super set compared with the neviyim.


Honsetly I would not equate Daniel to a prophet because he is what I would call an interpreter of dreams much like Joseph the son of Jacob was...Prophets have a direct message, fully explained, to give from G-d, while Daniel is interpreting Dreams that he himself doesnt know what they mean...

[Cherith]

Honsetly I would not equate Daniel to a prophet ... he is ...an interpreter of dreams much like Joseph...

Someone, I think Goose, said that they prefer the idea of a "forth-teller" rather than that of a "fore-teller". I think all of this is a tempest in a teapot. Joseph did interpret dreams, but can any of you name a dream that he either had or interpreted for someone else that was not a prediction of some future event - i.e. fore-telling? The same goes for Daniel - the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar, the writing on the wall, the vision of the horns, of the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days, the vision of the willful king, etc. Which of these dreams or visions were not of the future - i.e. prophecies foretelling some future event?

I agree that prophets were those who spoke for God, but my whole point has been if Daniel is not WRITING these visions and dreams down to PROCLAIM or TELL-FORTH to his own people, then pray tell what is his function - either for God or for his people? You guys are making it either/or when the Scripture OBVIOUSLY portrays it as both/and. (It makes one wonder how a fruitful DISCUSSION can ever be had when we can't even get past wrangling over mere WORDS!)

I would like to move on. I don't see how arguing over this word will make any difference to the chronlogical events!

[Goose]

Cherith,

Forthteller is someone who is telling what will happen on a present course.

Foreteller is someone who foresees the future.

Some visions don't happen, like the initial forthtelling of the destruction of Nineveh. This would be an example of a forthtelling rather then a foretelling. So many "prophecies" of the Bible are conditional. Can a prophesy of your definition be conditional? No.

Why do you have such a problem with this? Do you have sometype of agenda?

[Cherith]

Do you have some type of agenda?

Yes I do, Goose. I'd like to move on. In particular, I'd like the first few questions that I asked in my opening post addressed.

[kofh2u]

Holy Crap, do you even read a single thing that has been posted in this thread? Seriously.

DDW JUST SAID THAT THE RAMBAM'S POSITION WAS THE ONLY CONSISTENT ONE FOR JUDAISM TO HAVE!

Away for sukkot?
To Israel?

If the fore teller (below) is right, shouldn't we all join you?


Zech. 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, (all Islam), and the punishment of all (Christian) nations that come not up to keep the feast (in their sukkots) of tabernacles (the cube shaped rooms).

[InChristAlways]

This is one case I'm going to have to agree with DDW - Daniel was a prophet in the English sense of the word. Since he didn't give any prophecies directed towards to Israel (as a people), it's debatable whether we could call him on in the Hebrew sense of the word. However, it's all a moot issue to me.According to daniel 12, it is when the power of the "holy people" has been shattered it will be ended. The only Holy people I know of in the OT were the Israelites. This would seem to imply the jewish rulers/priests in jerusalem in the first century. In Isaiah 28, it says Jerusalem would be destroyed after the "cornerstone" of Christ came, and it mentions the rulers of Jerusalem/Judah, the "holy people".

deut 7:6 " For you [are] a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

dan 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who [was] above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that for a time, times, and half [a time;] and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these [things] shall be finished. [i]8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things?"] 9 And he said, "Go [your way,] Daniel, for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

[Goose]

EliYosef has the more accurate translation of Daniel 9. Particularly the lack of the definative article in 9:25 - "...an anointed prince..."

[Pythagoras]

Goose,EliYosef has the more accurate translation of Daniel 9. Particularly the lack of the definative article in 9:25 - "...an anointed prince..."
I don't think anybody trusts either yours or Eliyosef's 'translations' anymore.

No offense intended,

[Goose]

Pythagoras,

Since you can't respond with anything of substance, and it's obvious your goal is to be a bully and a nuisance and waste everyone's time; I'm putting you on "Ignore".

[InChristAlways]

As far as the timing of the messiah, it has to have been before the destruction by God of the first temple and house of Judah in 70ad, and since Jesus is the only one known to have come before it was destroyed, that would narrow the time from whenever Malachi wrote this prophecy. Surely this is the Herod's temple that was standing after this prophecy was made? Isaiah appears to say Jerusalem will be destroyed upon the appearance of the "precious cornerstone". Is that the messiah also? How many times does the Lord come to His temple in the Bible??? Thanks.

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. Andthe Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.

[Pythagoras]

Pythagoras,

Since you can't respond with anything of substance, and it's obvious your goal is to be a bully and a nuisance and waste everyone's time; I'm putting you on "Ignore".
You're being a sore loser.

[InChristAlways]

As far as the timing of the messiah, it has to have been before the destruction by God of the first temple and house of Judah in 70ad, and since Jesus is the only one known to have come before it was destroyed, that would narrow the time from whenever Malachi wrote this prophecy. Surely this is the Herod's temple that was standing after this prophecy was made? Isaiah appears to say Jerusalem will be destroyed upon the appearance of the "precious cornerstone". Is that the messiah also? How many times does the Lord come to His temple in the Bible??? Thanks.

Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.Hi. Any idea why David would say the "stone" the builders rejected has become the "cornerstone" and how was David not to "die" but live and surely the gate of the righteous would not be a literal "temple gate"? The OT is surely talking of a devine Messiah coming but in a way that will bewilder those that fail to see it as not only a physical fulfillment, but also a "spiritual" fulfillment. Thanks.

Psalm 118:16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted; The right hand of the LORD does valiantly. 17I shall not die, but live, And declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD has chastened me severely, But He has not given me over to death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go through them, [And] I will praise the LORD. 20 This is the gate of the LORD, Through which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. 22 The stone [which] the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the LORD's doing; It [is] marvelous in our eyes.

Behold, I lay in Zion a stone, a stone of trial. The demonstrative particle behold expresses certainty; as if he had said, "Though wicked men despise my words, and refuse to believe them, yet I will perform what I have promised." The pronoun I is emphatic, that the prophecy may be more firmly believed. As to the words, the genitive! Nxb, (bochan,) of trial, which is used instead of an adjective along with stone, may be taken both in an active and in a passive sense, either for a stone by which the whole building is "tried," or examined as by a standard, or for a "tried stone." The former meaning appears to me to be more appropriate, and undoubtedly the usage of the Hebrew language requires us to interpret it rather in an active sense. He calls it therefore a trying stone, or a trier, on account of the effect produced; because by this stone the whole building must be squared and adjusted, otherwise it must unavoidably totter and fall.