Christmas [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

barryrob

August 25th 2004, 11:37 AM

Oh, oh, wait,didn't some other people use Dec 25th??? Oh, but they aren't here now, are they, they have gone, and Christianity reigns. sigh.[/QUOTE]

No they have not gone:-
A) Wicca Lessons Lesson 7

The Wheel of the Year

THE WINTER SOLSTICE: YULE - 21st DECEMBER

Yule is the time we celebrate the return of the waxing sun. Light and life can be seen to be returning and conquering death. Yule is a turning point, a point of change, where the tides of the year turn and begin to flow in the opposite direction. It is the darkest time of the year, the time of the longest night, but there is the promise of the return of light.

We encourage the sun to rise and to grow in power, and we remember the seasons of plenty. Magickally we bring back the season of plenty, and we feast on rich foods and drinks. The fir tree represents life amidst death, it is evergreen, representing everlasting life, and lasting friendship.

Holly and Mistletoe bear berries at this time, symbolizing fertility. Mistletoe berries are white, representing the semen of the Horned God, the Holly berries are blood red, symbolizing both the menstrual blood of the Goddess and the sacrifice of the God. Evergreen trees also represent youth and freshness, and are symbols of the promise of spring. A yule custom, still practised at Christmas is to dress an evergreen tree, and make offerings.

We honour the spirit of the tree, and what it represents. It is sad that a custom of honouring the living tree has been replaced by the meaningless decoration of ghastly plastic or tinsel trees, or the cutting down of thousands of living trees so that people can have them in their living rooms for a couple of weeks, and then dump them, causing environmental damage. It is far better to honour a living tree, outdoors.

The tree may be decorated with appropriate offerings, fruit, decorated pine cones, jewellery, symbols of the sun, symbols of fertility, birds, animals, etc. At yule we say goodbye to the dying sun, and wait through the long, cold night for the sun's rebirth. The night belongs to the Goddess, and is a night of waiting, through her pregnancy, for the Child of Promise.

In the morning we greet the new sun and celebrate the waxing year. The rising sun brings the promise of the spring and the gifts that will bring. It is still a long time before the sun will be strong, but we hope and we trust. The sun is now the Child of Promise, the young hero God. It is a time of making wishes and hopes for the coming year, and of setting resolutions. From the darkness comes light.”-http://www.avalonia.co.uk/wicca/lessons/lesson7.htm

B)
The Wheel of the Year

Yule ~ Midwinter Night's Eve

© by Mike Nichols

Our Christian friends are often quite surprised at how enthusiastically we Pagans celebrate the 'Christmas' season. Even though we prefer to use the word 'Yule', and our celebrations may peak a few days BEFORE the 25th, we nonetheless follow many of the traditional customs of the season: decorated trees, carolling, presents, Yule logs, and mistletoe. We might even go so far as putting up a 'Nativity set', though for us the three central characters are likely to be interpreted as Mother Nature, Father Time, and the Baby Sun-God.

Ultimately, of course, the holiday is rooted deeply in the cycle of the year. It is the Winter Solstice that is being celebrated, seed-time of the year, the longest night and shortest day. It is the birthday of the new Sun King, the Son of God -- by whatever name you choose to call him. On this darkest of nights, the Goddess becomes the Great Mother and once again gives birth. And it makes perfect poetic sense that on the longest night of the winter, 'the dark night of our souls', there springs the new spark of hope, the Sacred Fire, the Light of the World, the Coel Coeth.

That is why Pagans have as much right to claim this holiday as Christians. Perhaps even more so, as the Christians were rather late in laying claim to it, and tried more than once to reject it. There had been a tradition in the West that Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could seem to decide on the month. Finally, in 320 C.E., the Catholic Fathers in Rome decided to make it December, in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration of the Romans and the Yule celebrations of the Celts and Saxons.

Thus, despite its shaky start (for over three centuries, no one knew when Jesus was supposed to have been born!), December 25 finally began to catch on. By 529, it was a civic holiday, and all work or public business (except that of cooks, bakers, or any that contributed to the delight of the holiday) was prohibited by the Emperor Justinian. In 563, the Council of Braga forbade fasting on Christmas Day, and four years later the Council of Tours proclaimed the twelve days from December 25 to Epiphany as a sacred, festive season. This last point is perhaps the hardest to impress upon the modern reader, who is lucky to get a single day off work. Christmas, in the Middle Ages, was not a SINGLE day, but rather a period of TWELVE days, from December 25 to January 6. The Twelve Days of Christmas, in fact. It is certainly lamentable that the modern world has abandoned this approach, along with the popular Twelfth Night celebrations.

Of course, the Christian version of the holiday spread to many countries no faster than Christianity itself, which means that 'Christmas' wasn't celebrated in Ireland until the late fifth century; in England, Switzerland, and Austria until the seventh; in Germany until the eighth; and in the Slavic lands until the ninth and tenth. Not that these countries lacked their own mid-winter celebrations of Yuletide. Long before the world had heard of Jesus, Pagans had been observing the season by bringing in the Yule log, wishing on it, and lighting it from the remains of last year's log. Riddles were posed and answered, magic and rituals were practiced, wild boars were sacrificed and consumed along with large quantities of liquor, corn dollies were carried from house to house while carolling, fertility rites were practiced (girls standing under a sprig of mistletoe were subject to a bit more than a kiss), and divinations were cast for the coming Spring. Many of these Pagan customs, in an appropriately watered-down form, have entered the mainstream of Christian celebration, though most celebrants do not realize (or do not mention it, if they do) their origins.

For modern Witches, Yule (from the Anglo-Saxon 'Yula', meaning 'wheel' of the year) is usually celebrated on the actual Winter Solstice, which may vary by a few days, though it usually occurs on or around December 21st. It is a Lesser Sabbat or Lower Holiday in the modern Pagan calendar, one of the four quarter-days of the year, but a very important one. Pagan customs are still enthusiastically followed. Once, the Yule log had been the center of the celebration. It was lighted on the eve of the solstice (it should light on the first try) and must be kept burning for twelve hours, for good luck. It should be made of ash. Later, the Yule log was replaced by the Yule tree but, instead of burning it, burning candles were placed on it. In Christianity, Protestants might claim that Martin Luther invented the custom, and Catholics might grant St. Boniface the honor, but the custom can demonstrably be traced back through the Roman Saturnalia all the way to ancient Egypt. Needless to say, such a tree should be cut down rather than purchased, and should be disposed of by burning, the proper way to dispatch any sacred object.

Along with the evergreen, the holly and the ivy and the mistletoe were important plants of the season, all symbolizing fertility and everlasting life. Mistletoe was especially venerated by the Celtic Druids, who cut it with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the moon, and believed it to be an aphrodisiac. (Magically -- not medicinally! It's highly toxic!) But aphrodisiacs must have been the smallest part of the Yuletide menu in ancient times, as contemporary reports indicate that the tables fairly creaked under the strain of every type of good food. And drink! The most popular of which was the 'wassail cup' deriving its name from the Anglo-Saxon term 'waes hael' (be whole or hale).

Medieval Christmas folklore seems endless: that animals will all kneel down as the Holy Night arrives, that bees hum the '100th psalm' on Christmas Eve, that a windy Christmas will bring good luck, that a person born on Christmas Day can see the Little People, that a cricket on the hearth brings good luck, that if one opens all the doors of the house at midnight all the evil spirits will depart, that you will have one lucky month for each Christmas pudding you sample, that the tree must be taken down by Twelfth Night or bad luck is sure to follow, that 'if Christmas on a Sunday be, a windy winter we shall see', that 'hours of sun on Christmas Day, so many frosts in the month of May', that one can use the Twelve Days of Christmas to predict the weather for each of the twelve months of the coming year, and so on.

Remembering that most Christmas customs are ultimately based upon older Pagan customs, it only remains for modern Pagans to reclaim their lost traditions. In doing so, we can share many common customs with our Christian friends, albeit with a slightly different interpretation. And thus we all share in the beauty of this most magical of seasons, when the Mother Goddess once again gives birth to the baby Sun-God and sets the wheel in motion again. To conclude with a long-overdue paraphrase, 'Goddess bless us, every one!'

http://www.americanwicca.com/university/wheel-0009.html

barryrob

August 25th 2004, 06:44 PM

I've been round and round with this, with myself and with others. I still struggle with it. However, to be consisitant about using or doing pagan things we need to include all those things. So here's a short list. Diamonds were thought to be magical and valued for such. (There goes my wedding ring) Oh and the ring has pagan symbolism also. The white dress and probably most of the wedding cer. Pearls were associated with the moon and such pagan rituals. (There goes my grandmothers necklace.) The Obalisk in my garden where I grow my beans and morning glories, pagan. Almost all of the presious stones were thought to have some magical power. (some still believe this.) Cats were worshiped, so there goes my little porcelein Cat with kitten. Cows are still worshiped in India, but I know people who love to collect cows to decorate with. Feng shwe (can't spell that) believes that mirrors can change a person's fate. Garlic, different herbs, and even the cross is used for pagan rituals. Got to get rid of those vampires.

Anyhow, these are just the things that I've thought of. I'm sure there is many many more.

just my 2 cents,
chris

I wish there was a spell checker here. (Snap)

There is a big differance between an object of great beauty that reflect the handy work of God and a object that is used in or viewed in ones socitey as an object use in worship or religious feastivites. Some of the things you mention above where used by the Jews and God did not object to it.

The point is is it now related to or used in false worship such as the religious feasts stepped in pagan rituals and symbols and still used in a religuous way to venerate God(s).
Barryrob

Gabby

August 25th 2004, 07:32 PM

(Snap)

There is a big differance between an object of great beauty that reflect the handy work of God and a object that is used in or viewed in ones socitey as an object use in worship or religious feastivites. Some of the things you mention above where used by the Jews and God did not object to it.

The point is is it now related to or used in false worship such as the religious feasts stepped in pagan rituals and symbols and still used in a religuous way to venerate God(s).
Barryrob

These objects were not and still are not just peices of great beauty. New Agers basically worships these things, diamonds crystals, opals, pearls and other minerals. Wears them for luck and prosperity, love and happiness. THIS IS FALSE WORSHIP.

Almost the whole wedding ceremony is pagan rituals. The garter, something old, something new, something blue, tossing the boquet, throwing the garter, throwing the rice, not seeing the bride in her dress before the ceromony. I'm sure I'm missing many many more. How about the diamonds which are so popular. Read on the history of wearing diamonds. The ring itself, the circle of eternity, is pagan. People, non christians inparticular, still hold to the superstions. How many times have you heard the phrase "knock on wood"? Peoples today still believe it is bad luck to see the bride in her gown before the wedding. People hold fast, even to leagalism, to the idea of the white dress for the pure and the off white for those who are not. You won't find that anywhere in the bible. Did you know that black was the color for the brides in the Victorian era. Not so long ago. Red is the color for the brides in China. Red brings good luck you know.

Again, Rom. 14:5,6ff "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, ...................."

chris

barryrob

August 26th 2004, 04:45 AM

These objects were not and still are not just peices of great beauty. New Agers basically worships these things, diamonds crystals, opals, pearls and other minerals. Wears them for luck and prosperity, love and happiness. THIS IS FALSE WORSHIP.

Almost the whole wedding ceremony is pagan rituals. The garter, something old, something new, something blue, tossing the boquet, throwing the garter, throwing the rice, not seeing the bride in her dress before the ceromony. I'm sure I'm missing many many more. How about the diamonds which are so popular. Read on the history of wearing diamonds. The ring itself, the circle of eternity, is pagan. People, non christians inparticular, still hold to the superstions. How many times have you heard the phrase "knock on wood"? Peoples today still believe it is bad luck to see the bride in her gown before the wedding. People hold fast, even to leagalism, to the idea of the white dress for the pure and the off white for those who are not. You won't find that anywhere in the bible. Did you know that black was the color for the brides in the Victorian era. Not so long ago. Red is the color for the brides in China. Red brings good luck you know.

Again, Rom. 14:5,6ff "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, ...................."

chris

Then reject the pagan elements.
Why did Jehovah then commend the 12 Gems but put on the High Priest Brest plate?
Jews use Rings and God allowed it.
I think you will find God is reasonable in his requirments.

You could say the same about the Days of the Week or the pagan symbols on coins etc., but then there are things beyond our power to alter at this time, these Jehovah will have to deal with himself in due time until then we avoid that which is within our power to do so according to our conscience, God will not ask us to change things beyond our power to do so.

Barryrob

Gabby

August 26th 2004, 11:14 AM

That is my point. It is impossible to rid ourselves of all that is pagan. I have a beautiful wedding ring with diamonds that I wear proudly, as a reminder of my oath and a sign to others that I have taken an oath. I also enjoy it's beauty. I have a string of pearls that I keep, not because I worship the moon, but because I like them. The obilisk in my garden I keep to support my plants, not because I'm making any kind of dediction to some false god. I put lights on my trees outside in the winter because winter is deary and I enjoy the beauty of it, not because I'm looking forward to some winter solstice. I put lights inside my home, in my windows and around my bannister for the same reasons. I decorate with pretty colors and put a tree up with lights and decorations because we choose to make a holiday at the end of December, not to worship the sun or the tree. We talk about Jesus' birth all year, but we focus on Jesus' birth, life and death especially. It's a good teaching moment for our children. You know why? Because I can focus on things differently in my home. I can take the greed and consumerism of that time of the year and focus it for my children on something good and beautiful, when the world focuses on things and fantasy.

The world isn't gonna stop celebrating the Christmas holiday. My children's school isn't gonna stop doing the crafts, and songs of that season. Advertisers aren't gonna stop peddling their wares to my kids. The kids at school aren't gonna stop talking about what they want, what they get. But I can focus it for my children.

It's the same for Easter. Now there's a pagan name for ya!

Anyhow, as for your question, 'is Christmas Christan?' Christmas is what you make it. In and of itself it is NOTHING, just like the wedding ring I wear. People make it what they want. To look at it otherwise, you must do it across the board. Is Easter christian? Is Thanksgiving christian? Is Valentines Christian? ect.

chris

barryrob

August 26th 2004, 11:31 AM

barryrob

October 16th 2004, 10:12 AM

Argument from Silence.
The Jews claimed that the worship of The Star God Saturn was that of their God:-

Exodus 32:4-6
Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: “This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.” When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.

What did Steven say:-

Acts 7:42-43 So God turned and handed them over to render sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the prophets, ‘It was not to me that YOU offered victims and sacrifices for forty years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? But it was the tent of Mo´loch and the star of the god Rephan that YOU took up, the figures which YOU made to worship them. Consequently I will deport YOU beyond Babylon.’

So what has the Church done:-

'As The Romans Did' [A Sourcebook In Roman Social History] by Jo-Ann Shelton p.384

"[footnote] 172 Saturnalia was one of the most popular of the whole year. Its place was conveniently taken in the Christian calendar by Christmas, but many of the festivities which surrounded the celebration of Saturn were absorbed into the celebration of Christ's birth. The Christians wisely absorbed what they could not eradicate."

WORSHIP OF THE GOD SATURN

"Saturn (mythology), in Roman mythology, ancient god of agriculture. In later legends he was identified with the Greek god Cronus, who, after having been dethroned by his son Zeus (in Roman mythology, Jupiter), fled to Italy, where he ruled during the Golden Age, a time of perfect peace and happiness. Beginning on December 17 of each year, during the festival known as the Saturnalia, the Golden Age was restored for seven days. All business stopped and executions and military operations were postponed. It was a period of goodwill, devoted to banquets and the exchange of visits and gifts. A special feature of the festival was the freedom given to slaves, who during this time had first place at the family table and were served by their masters…..."-Microsoft® Encarta® 96 Encyclopedia

Swift Platinum Easton's Topical Bible

"Remphan (Acts 7:43; R.V., "Rephan"). In Amos 5:26 the Heb. Chiun (q.v.) is rendered by the LXX. "Rephan," and this name is adopted by Luke in his narrative of the Acts. These names represent the star-god Saturn or Moloch."

Corinthians 10:18-22:-
"LOOK at that which is Israel in a fleshly way: Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers with the altar? What, then, am I to say? That what is sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons. YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. Or “are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy”? We are not stronger than he is, are we?." The New International Version of the Bible reads at 1 Cor 10:20 of the Israelite worship of Saturn "No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons."

Argument from the Bible and History!

Barryrob

Xavier

October 16th 2004, 11:55 AM

Saturnalia is not Christmas. It might share a date, but not much else.

Trout

October 16th 2004, 11:59 AM

Barryrob,

I'd like a pony for Christmas, can you help me out?

barryrob

October 16th 2004, 12:57 PM

Saturnalia is not Christmas. It might share a date, but not much else.

'A Rose by any other name smells the same.'
Barryrob

barryrob

October 16th 2004, 01:00 PM

Barryrob,

I'd like a pony for Christmas, can you help me out?
Hi Trout
Hope you and yours are well.

Sorry export restrictions from England.

Trout

October 16th 2004, 01:01 PM

Hi Trout
Hope you and yours are well.

Sorry export restrictions from England.

Darn it. . .

How bout a Christmas card instead? :nsm:

Xavier

October 16th 2004, 06:53 PM

'A Rose by any other name smells the same.'
Barryrob
Only if its actually a rose...

Jedidiah

October 16th 2004, 09:52 PM

Then reject the pagan elements. Then, using the same logic, it would be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements (all those elements you have pointed out).

beeman

barryrob

October 17th 2004, 07:27 AM

Then, using the same logic, it would be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements (all those elements you have pointed out).

beemanAs you know JWs do not celerbrate any birthdays.

Tell me how can anyone celerbrate the day on which Jesus was born when there is no record anywhere on this planet telling us on what day it happened?

So any date would be wrong!

Barryrob

Jedidiah

October 17th 2004, 12:32 PM

As you know JWs do not celerbrate any birthdays.

Tell me how can anyone celerbrate the day on which Jesus was born when there is no record anywhere on this planet telling us on what day it happened?

So any date would be wrong!

BarryrobHow is any of this relevant to what I asked?

barryrob

October 17th 2004, 05:33 PM

How is any of this relevant to what I asked?
God is a God of Truth, so in Truth, which is essential to be excepted by God, what was the true day of Jesus was born on? Because if it is not true then it is a lie!

Barryrob

Gabby

October 17th 2004, 07:18 PM

What was the true bread that Jesus used at the Passover Feast, what was the true fruit of the vine that he used. Not Matzos and grape juice. What type of grapes, what type of flower and oil and baking methods were used. What not true is not truth! What type of Synagog did Jeus worship in? Stain glassed windows with cushioned pews. Nice pulpit with state of the art mic.? Ones with bathrooms? Kitchens? Classrooms? Wouldn't want to do something that where there isn't an example laid out for us. Prayer shawls and tzit tzits.

How about anniversaries, Valentines Day, Thanksgiving.
Better re-examine everything.

chris

Jedidiah

October 17th 2004, 08:25 PM

God is a God of Truth, so in Truth, which is essential to be excepted by God, what was the true day of Jesus was born on? Because if it is not true then it is a lie!Since I do not know of anyone who claims that the 25th of December is the day Jesus was born, I do not know anyone guilty of the lie you are pointing at. The Christians I know remember the birth of the the savior on that day because it is the day we remember it as a group, not because anyone pretends that it is THE day. Why not celebrate the coming of the Messiah into this world?

How about an answer to the question I asked originally. Then, using the same logic, woulld it be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements?

beeman

barryrob

October 19th 2004, 04:15 AM

Since I do not know of anyone who claims that the 25th of December is the day Jesus was born, I do not know anyone guilty of the lie you are pointing at. The Christians I know remember the birth of the the savior on that day because it is the day we remember it as a group, not because anyone pretends that it is THE day. Why not celebrate the coming of the Messiah into this world?

How about an answer to the question I asked originally. Then, using the same logic, woulld it be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements?

beemanBecause Jesus said:-

Luke 22:19-20

Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

The above way is the only Jesus Christ said to remember Him, not his birthday which no body know when it is. If Jesus wanted us to celerbrate his birth he would of made sure we know when it was, this He did not do! He wants Christian to celerbtate his Death as this brings salvation to men and glory to God.

What did Paul say:-

1 Corinthians 4:6

"Do not go beyond the things that are written,"

Christmas goes against Paul's words above!

Barryrob

Jedidiah

October 19th 2004, 06:00 PM

Because Jesus said:-Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

The above way is the only Jesus Christ said to remember Him, not his birthday which no body know when it is. If Jesus wanted us to celerbrate his birth he would of made sure we know when it was, this He did not do! He wants Christian to celerbtate his Death as this brings salvation to men and glory to God.So your reason for rejecting a celebration of the coming of the Lord into the world, is Jesus did not specifically command it? Jesus did not specifically command a number of things in our world that we all take part in.

Also, it is not only Jesus death that is important to our salvation. Paul points out that if Jesus was not raised, we are still in our sins. Why not celebrate the Resurection in that case?

beeman

Gabby

October 19th 2004, 06:27 PM

barryrob,
Wedding ceremonies are rife with pagan practices. One of the most sacred institutions ordained by God.

chris

barryrob

October 19th 2004, 07:20 PM

barryrob,
Wedding ceremonies are rife with pagan practices. One of the most sacred institutions ordained by God.

chrisIn some things yes, it has been influcnced by paganisum, but what would one expect in view of:-

Revelation 12:9

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

thus the need for care in what we except and do!

Barryrob

Gabby

October 19th 2004, 07:30 PM

In some things yes, it has been influcnced by paganisum, but what would one expect in view of:-

Revelation 12:9

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

thus the need for care in what we except and do!

Barryrob

Do you wear a wedding ring, does it have a diamond? Did your wife wear white? Throw any rice? Garter? Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony? ect.

Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.

barryrob

October 19th 2004, 07:42 PM

Do you wear a wedding ring, does it have a diamond? Did your wife wear white? Throw any rice? Garter? Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony? ect.

Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.
Do you wear a wedding ring No

does it have a diamond NO

Did your wife wear white NO

Throw any rice NO

Garter NO

Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony No Wedding dress worn.

ect ???

Any more?

Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.
No quite so as the aincet Jews used finger rings which as the pagans did, ear rings as the pagans did but without the same meanings!

Barryrob

Gabby

October 19th 2004, 08:00 PM

Do you wear a wedding ring No

does it have a diamond NO

Did your wife wear white NO

Throw any rice NO

Garter NO

Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony No Wedding dress worn.

ect ???

Any more?

Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.
No quite so as the aincet Jews used finger rings which as the pagans did, ear rings as the pagans did but without the same meanings!

Barryrob

Yeah, there's much more. cutting the cake, cans tied to the rear of the car, a liscensed minister or justice of the peace and on and on.

Are you even married?

Interesting, we do certain things on Dec. 25, like gift giving, singing, eating turkey, but it doesn't have the same meaning those pagans put on it.

chris

Sparko

October 19th 2004, 09:29 PM

In some things yes, it has been influcnced by paganisum, but what would one expect in view of:-

Revelation 12:9

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

thus the need for care in what we except and do!

Barryrob

So why is it OK for you Jehovah Witnesses to celebrate Wedding Anniversaries, if they have pagan overtones and history? Isn't that why you are claiming we should not celebrate birthdays and christmas, becase they have pagan origins?

Looks like a double standard.

Sparko

October 19th 2004, 09:34 PM

No quite so as the aincet Jews used finger rings which as the pagans did, ear rings as the pagans did but without the same meanings!

Barryrob
So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?

Don't be a hypocrite! You denounce Christmas trees, crosses, gift giving, and such and claim they are evil because they have pagan origins, even though people do not assign those pagan meanings to them today. And you claim above that it was OK for ancient Jews to use finger rings and ear rings just like the pagans did, because they had different meanings to the Jews.

barryrob

October 20th 2004, 04:56 AM

So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?

Don't be a hypocrite! You denounce Christmas trees, crosses, gift giving, and such and claim they are evil because they have pagan origins, even though people do not assign those pagan meanings to them today. And you claim above that it was OK for ancient Jews to use finger rings and ear rings just like the pagans did, because they had different meanings to the Jews.
You obviosly totaly missed the point of this:-

"So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?"

God did not stop the wearing certian types of items but he did other types of itmes:-

Deuteronomy 4:15-20

"And YOU must take good care of YOUR souls, because YOU did not see any form on the day of Jehovah’s speaking to YOU in Ho´reb out of the middle of the fire, 16 that YOU may not act ruinously and may not really make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, 17 the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, 18 the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; 19 and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens. 20 But YOU are the ones Jehovah took that he might bring YOU out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to become a people of private ownership to him as at this day.

It is quite clear to see that God Jehovah condems items that have a false religious overtone as most of the things mentioned in the above text where religious symbols used by the Demon worshiping Egyptians. If you look through the list you will see that most of them are used in the Chiurch today as religious symbols, e.g. the "Fish" (ITHEOS), "the representation of male or female" a sex symbol, the "Sun" is the Halo or Nimbus above the head of various saints and Jesus in Art and the "Sun" burst some alter crosses, the "Star" on Icons of Mary is the Satr of the Babynonian Goddes Ishtar, "Bird" a Dove is used as a symbol for a God -holy spirit-, to name but a few of objets of veneration.

Your comment show lack of grasping the fundamentals of what Idolatry constitutes perhaps this is because the Church has misled 1,000,000,000s of people over the centuries into believing that which "is bad is good and that which is good is bad" (Isa. 5 20) hence its toleration in its ranks of so many wicked things. Remember Jesus was a Jew and whole hartedly and followed the above and thus taught his true followers the same.

Barryrob

barryrob

October 20th 2004, 04:57 AM

So why is it OK for you Jehovah Witnesses to celebrate Wedding Anniversaries, if they have pagan overtones and history? Isn't that why you are claiming we should not celebrate birthdays and christmas, becase they have pagan origins?

Looks like a double standard.
Some do some do not!

Sparko

October 20th 2004, 11:27 AM

You obviosly totaly missed the point of this:-

"So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?"

God did not stop the wearing certian types of items but he did other types of itmes:-

Your comment show lack of grasping the fundamentals of what Idolatry constitutes perhaps this is because the Church has misled 1,000,000,000s of people over the centuries into believing that which "is bad is good and that which is good is bad" (Isa. 5 20) hence its toleration in its ranks of so many wicked things. Remember Jesus was a Jew and whole hartedly and followed the above and thus taught his true followers the same.
Barryrob

Your comment shows a lack of logical thinking. The point is that JW's say we should not celebrate Christmas, partly becase is it full of pagan symbolism. But then you turn around and say that pagan symbols are not pagan if they have a different meaning to a believer (e.g. rings)

Well you can't have it both ways. To do so is to be hypocritical.

When you can't answer a question or accusation directly, you seem to ignore it and respond with some inane dodge, or repeat yourself as if that makes the logic of the question or accusation go away. Well, it doesn't.

Sparko

October 20th 2004, 11:40 AM

About JW's celebrating wedding anniversaries:

Some do some do not!
But if some do, then it is not evil in the eyes of your church, is it?

And if it allowed by the watchtower, then why are birth anniversaries considered wrong and pagan? Wedding anniversaries are just as pagan, and as far as I know we are not given instructions to celebrate wedding anniversaries in the bible, and that is one of the points you argue against Christmas and birthdays, that we are not commanded to celebrate them in the bible so they are wrong.

Again, a double standard.

barryrob

October 20th 2004, 04:38 PM

Your comment shows a lack of logical thinking. The point is that JW's say we should not celebrate Christmas, partly becase is it full of pagan symbolism. But then you turn around and say that pagan symbols are not pagan if they have a different meaning to a believer (e.g. rings)

Well you can't have it both ways. To do so is to be hypocritical.

When you can't answer a question or accusation directly, you seem to ignore it and respond with some inane dodge, or repeat yourself as if that makes the logic of the question or accusation go away. Well, it doesn't.
Do not try and twist my words:-
"But then you turn around and say that pagan symbols are not pagan if they have a different meaning to a believer (e.g. rings)."
I said to God!!

Truth is truth as way say something differant, you can take it or leave it, its up to you.

Barryrob

Jedidiah

October 20th 2004, 05:15 PM

Barryrob,

It is unfortunate that as we focus on values close to us our emotions often get involved. I see a pattern of low respect on both sides of this issue. I do hope I have not followed, or appeared to follow this pattern in my posts.

My parents are JW and when I ask questions that push to detailed explanations it is only because discourse with my folks has reached a limit. I do not want to break the family ties without need. At this point my folks and I have each agreed to trust the salvation of the others to the hand of the One True God.

I would appreciate, very much, an explanation of the Christmas issue with attention to the details I have asked about. I will, very possibly ask for further clarification as I find problems, from my perspective, with aspects of your answers. These 'pushy' questions are not intended to be disrespectful, but rather seek to understand.

beeman

barryrob

October 21st 2004, 04:27 AM

So your reason for rejecting a celebration of the coming of the Lord into the world, is Jesus did not specifically command it? Jesus did not specifically command a number of things in our world that we all take part in.

Also, it is not only Jesus death that is important to our salvation. Paul points out that if Jesus was not raised, we are still in our sins. Why not celebrate the Resurection in that case?

beemanIf you are talking about the Easter celebration it also is steeped in Paganism it is even named after the pagan Goddess it glorifies:-

"The English name Easter, like the German Ostern, probably derives from Eostur, the Norse word for the spring season, and not from Eostre, the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess."—The Encyclopaedia of Religion.

As is clearly seen from it's attendant symbols of fertility such as Eggs, and Rabbits etc.. As Jesus did not tell us to render worship this way and niether is it recorded in the Book of Acts that the early Christians followed such a religious practice.

We must all note this point:-

2 Corinthians 11:14
for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

and why? So he can make a religon that to all intense purposes looks right but is in fact a counterfit of the true faith as found in the Bible, so as it is of his making any service rendered through it does not go to Jehovah but goes to him. This is his way of getting uninformed humans to do what Jesus refused to do at:-

Matthew 4:8-10
Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

A 1/2 hr. on the www searching about the origins of Easter will show where it comes from.

Barryrob

barryrob

October 21st 2004, 04:35 AM

Since I do not know of anyone who claims that the 25th of December is the day Jesus was born, I do not know anyone guilty of the lie you are pointing at. The Christians I know remember the birth of the the savior on that day because it is the day we remember it as a group, not because anyone pretends that it is THE day. Why not celebrate the coming of the Messiah into this world?

How about an answer to the question I asked originally. Then, using the same logic, woulld it be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements?

beeman
The very concept of celerbrating any birthday is not of the God of the Bible:-

Reasaong form the scriptures p. 69 by WTBTS
"How did early Christians and Jews of Bible times view birthday celebrations?
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

"The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days."—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225."

It is a pagan idea directly related to Astrorlogy and protecting spirits to be shuned by Christians.

Barryrob

Sparko

October 21st 2004, 11:14 AM

The very concept of celerbrating any birthday is not of the God of the Bible:-
Even the angels celebrated the Birth of Jesus.

Luke 2: 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14 "Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

Reasaong form the scriptures p. 69 by WTBTS
"How did early Christians and Jews of Bible times view birthday celebrations?
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

"The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days."—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225."
I am sorry but quoting what some dusty guys said 150 years ago has no bearing on what was true 2000 years ago. What evidence do they give that this was so?

It is a pagan idea directly related to Astrorlogy and protecting spirits to be shuned by Christians.

Huh?

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

barryrob

October 21st 2004, 11:20 AM

I am sorry but quoting what some dusty guys said 150 years ago has no bearing on what was true 2000 years ago. What evidence do they give that this was so?
The Bible is a lot older than that does the same apply to that then?

Truth does not change with age!

Sparko

October 21st 2004, 11:33 AM

The Bible is a lot older than that does the same apply to that then?

Truth does not change with age!
My posts are not smorgasbords where you should feel free to pick and choose which parts to reply to and which to ignore. If you want to respond to me, at least have the courtesy to respond to my salient arguments and not ignore them.

That said, the bible is truth because it is the word of God. The words of men might be true or not depending on what evidence they have for their claims. You just quoted a quote of a translation of a quote of a conclusion. That is not evidence. Go back to school.

barryrob

October 21st 2004, 11:38 AM

Huh?

I reply to what I can when I can In my time not yours with all due respect!

According to authors Ralph and Adelin Linton, there is a definite connection between astrology and birthdays. They observe in their book The Lore of Birthdays: "Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honoured their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope."

Barryrob

Sparko

October 21st 2004, 07:45 PM

Gabby

October 21st 2004, 07:50 PM

I reply to what I can when I can In my time not yours with all due respect!

According to authors Ralph and Adelin Linton, there is a definite connection between astrology and birthdays. They observe in their book The Lore of Birthdays: "Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honoured their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope."

Barryrob

He's busy over in the Witches, Wiccans and Pagan thread, complimenting them on their spirituality.

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 05:59 AM

He's busy over in the Witches, Wiccans and Pagan thread, complimenting them on their spirituality.Truth hurts doesn't it.

I have spoken with many in my time so if you do not like then shape up then you will be complemented. "Jealuosy" is 'rottensess to the bones', Soloman.

The ones I have talked to hate War unlike lots of so called 'chrsitians' that praise the "Prince Of Peace" then murder babies, children, and women in war. If you do not like the heat say out of the Kitchen. I speak as I find weither you like it or not!!

Barryob

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 07:19 AM

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
The above is talking about the Mosaic Law or Torah and that Christians are not under it any more because Christ died doing away with it and all seasonal days etc..!

The text above you have used has less than nothing to do with the topic of this thread as it is relating to ancient Jewish religious practices and Law and shows that followers of Jesus Christ that to follow their –Jewish- special days is useless in pleasing God as the Law is now finished with because of the sacrifice of Jesus, the lamb of God and Greater Passover.

So how much more useless to follow things that come from ancient pagan religious practises which it the topic theme of this thread as we are dealing with post Jewish matters.

Barryrob

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 07:40 AM

barryrob,
Wedding ceremonies are rife with pagan practices. One of the most sacred institutions ordained by God.

chris
True but they where human additions, it that not so, then do not do them, except that which are required by the Law as Jesus said render to Caesar Caesar’s things but God's things to God. Then avoid that which is obviously pagan.

Barryrob

Sparko

October 22nd 2004, 09:33 AM

The above is talking about the Mosaic Law or Torah and that Christians are not under it any more because Christ died doing away with it and all seasonal days etc..!

The text above you have used has less than nothing to do with the topic of this thread as it is relating to ancient Jewish religious practices and Law and shows that followers of Jesus Christ that to follow their –Jewish- special days is useless in pleasing God as the Law is now finished with because of the sacrifice of Jesus, the lamb of God and Greater Passover.

So how much more useless to follow things that come from ancient pagan religious practises which it the topic theme of this thread as we are dealing with post Jewish matters.

Barryrob
The passage is not saying you can't have religious festivals, new moon celebrations or sabbaths. It is saying legalism about those things is WRONG. If you want to celebrate them, then thats fine. If you don't want to, then that is fine too.

It is saying don't let people like YOU tell us whether we can celebrate such things or not. It is saying that people like YOU who are legalistic to the point of insanity try to SEEM like you are godly, but you have lost your way, because Christ came to FREE us from the law, not put us under MORE regulations. my comments on what these verses mean in this color below

Colossian 2: 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_2)] God made you[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_3)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_4)]

we are no longer bound by legalistic regulations. we are free in Christ.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Don't let anyone tell you you can't celebrate a religious festival if you want to, or tell you that you must if you don't want to. They can't judge you because you are free under Christ.

17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

These things do not matter because Christ is the real thing.

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Don't let people who believe in legalism (false humility) and who worhip ANGELS (sound like you Jehovah's Witnesses who think Jesus was an Angel) tell you what to do. To put your faith in such works is to cut yourself off from your connection with Christ.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Since you no longer are subject to the law or this world, why do you still let legalistic jerks tell you what to do? They tell you "Don't eat Pork! Don't drink caffiene or alcohol! Don't do this or that!" But these things do not matter in the long run. These rules are all just rules made up by legalistic men and they will perish.

23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

These legalistic rules might appear to be godly and earn your way to God, but they are false and have no value in truly changing your ways. Only God can change your heart.

--

Gabby

October 22nd 2004, 10:33 AM

Truth hurts doesn't it.

I have spoken with many in my time so if you do not like then shape up then you will be complemented. "Jealuosy" is 'rottensess to the bones', Soloman.

The ones I have talked to hate War unlike lots of so called 'chrsitians' that praise the "Prince Of Peace" then murder babies, children, and women in war. If you do not like the heat say out of the Kitchen. I speak as I find weither you like it or not!!

Barryob

:no:

Who says I like war?? Who says I'm for the war or any war? Who says I'm for the killing of anyone!? For your info. I'm against the war and I'm against capital punishment. How about you??

Who says I'm jealous?? :no:

As a JW what would your fellow JW's think about you fellowshiping with Pagans, Witches and Wiccans?

Your welcome to speak however you like, but your speach betrays you as a hypocrite.

chris

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 03:12 PM

:no:

Who says I like war?? Who says I'm for the war or any war? Who says I'm for the killing of anyone!? For your info. I'm against the war and I'm against capital punishment. How about you??

Who says I'm jealous?? :no:

As a JW what would your fellow JW's think about you fellowshiping with Pagans, Witches and Wiccans?

Your welcome to speak however you like, but your speach betrays you as a hypocrite.

chrisYou obviously do not understand the meaning of "Fellowship" and of commendation.

Jesus commended a pagan Roman centurian as he had not seen faith like his among the Jews (such as I do not see in the churches):-

Matthew 8:5-10

When he entered into Ca·pernaum, an army officer came to him, entreating him 6 and saying: "Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented." 7 He said to him: "When I get there I will cure him." 8 In reply the army officer said: "Sir, I am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof*, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Be on your way!’ and he is on his way, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it." 10 Hearing that, Jesus became amazed and said to those following him: "I tell YOU the truth, With no one in Israel have I found so great a faith.

*Thus not an Israelite

Anyone how "fellowships" with any of the churches of Chrsitiandom show taset support for the blood they shed in Warfare as they are part of its oranization and it war machine. If you do not agree with War then as Jesus said:-

Revelation 18:4-8

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her*, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

*Pagandom and Christiandom as false religions

"Who says I'm jealous??" the why even comment?

I commend respect for this Earth The God made in anyone I see, as I do not see much more the the earth being exploted by religons including the Church with not more more in mind that an ongoing fight for power, that is why I HATE the institutions of the Christiandom/Churches as they are blantant power mad wor mongers just like the non 'chritsian' religions in the near East!

And they say 'peace on earth to all men" (as long as he is one of us and agrees with us or we will kill him or have him killed or find an excuse to do it) I have not seen that among Wiccans and for this they are better that the Churches and for this they deserve commendation from anybody even you.

Barryrob

Sparko

October 22nd 2004, 03:27 PM

Gabby

October 22nd 2004, 04:18 PM

You obviously do not understand the meaning of "Fellowship" and of commendation.

Jesus commended a pagan Roman centurian as he had not seen faith like his among the Jews (such as I do not see in the churches):-

Matthew 8:5-10

When he entered into Ca·pernaum, an army officer came to him, entreating him 6 and saying: "Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented." 7 He said to him: "When I get there I will cure him." 8 In reply the army officer said: "Sir, I am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof*, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Be on your way!’ and he is on his way, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it." 10 Hearing that, Jesus became amazed and said to those following him: "I tell YOU the truth, With no one in Israel have I found so great a faith.

*Thus not an Israelite

Anyone how "fellowships" with any of the churches of Chrsitiandom show taset support for the blood they shed in Warfare as they are part of its oranization and it war machine. If you do not agree with War then as Jesus said:-

Revelation 18:4-8

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her*, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

*Pagandom and Christiandom as false religions

"Who says I'm jealous??" the why even comment?

I commend respect for this Earth The God made in anyone I see, as I do not see much more the the earth being exploted by religons including the Church with not more more in mind that an ongoing fight for power, that is why I HATE the institutions of the Christiandom/Churches as they are blantant power mad wor mongers just like the non 'chritsian' religions in the near East!

And they say 'peace on earth to all men" (as long as he is one of us and agrees with us or we will kill him or have him killed or find an excuse to do it) I have not seen that among Wiccans and for this they are better that the Churches and for this they deserve commendation from anybody even you.

Barryrob

Fellowship - To share in common
- companionship, or friendly association with others
- a group of people or society sharing a common interest or aim
ect.

Jealousy - Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at with your "Jealuosy" is 'rottensess to the bones', Soloman. If I did then I'm sorry. But then I must say "Why even the comment?"

As far as the centurian goes, JohnSparks said it well. See his post.

Anyhow what does the exploitation of the earth have to do with your op?? What does war have to do with your op??

Christiandom is not my religion. I don't worship Christiandom.

Anyways, I am not going to respond to anything more that is off topic, and as John has stated, where you do not address my points concerning Christmas I will take it as you conceeding to my points.

chris

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 06:57 PM

Fellowship - To share in common
- companionship, or friendly association with others
- a group of people or society sharing a common interest or aim
ect.

Jealousy - Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at with your If I did then I'm sorry. But then I must say "Why even the comment?"

As far as the centurian goes, JohnSparks said it well. See his post.

Anyhow what does the exploitation of the earth have to do with your op?? What does war have to do with your op??

Christiandom is not my religion. I don't worship Christiandom.

Anyways, I am not going to respond to anything more that is off topic, and as John has stated, where you do not address my points concerning Christmas I will take it as you conceeding to my points.

chrisSo those Troops who claim the faith of Jesus and go to war after eating there Turkey and Plum Pudding and after the priest of Christendom Churches bless them and pray for Gods blessing on them. The following day they go a murder others humans while finishing of the rest of the Mince Pies as they offer humans sacrifices on the alter of war and bless the prince of peace. If you cannot see the connection it is that you don not want to see it, I became plan to me at 13.

When I was 13 I when to all the D-Day Beaches and in the English, U.S., Germans cemeteries looked at all the Crosses of all the 'Christian' soldiers who no doubt enjoyed their Turkey at Christmas and ended in a 6ft plot of ground for serving their so called God of peace whom they sung carols to at Christmas and thought nothing of sending them to die in the name of ‘peace’ and I studied the wars which only served to confirm I had made the right decision, to say way from the church as they where a waist of time.

It dawned on me just what it meant when Jesus said "those who live by 'the sword will die by the sword' and for what?

So their descendants can celebrate Christmas whilst destroying the Air, Sea, and Earth by more war, pollution, immorality that the church supports while putting up their Christmas lights praising the prince of peace and sending the ammunition to the Troops to do more killing. What a total waist of life on all sides. What was came to my mind was you will be peaceful or we will kill you your babies your women and ask for the God of Christmas the bless all we do as we do it in his name.

If they had been taught the Bible properly they would have know according to prophecy the Hiltler and all the others powers would be a passing phase in a blood stained history of failure to rule properly and not worth dying for as Jesus is the only worth dying for because it is only He that will bring True Peace to this Earth.

Now that’s what war has to do here hypocrisy in it plainest from which keeps millions away from the churches as it did me until I found what Jesus really meant in his saying as recorded in the Bible.

I was saw the choice Christendom (the churches which I had rejected as useless) or Christianity and chose The Christianity that Jesus preached The Greatest Jehovah’s Witness to walk the face of this earth ever so I thus rejected the pseudo Christian churches Totally now and all their useless festivals as they have no effect on masking people to become truly peaceful, kind, Loving, merciful, to which history adequately testifies across the history of the Church particularly in the 20th and now the 21st century.

And I am very glad to say the least as I can see clearly the difference of those who celebrate Christmas and those who truly Follow “The Prince Of Peace” “King Of kings” Jesus, The Son Of Jehovah.

That is what place War has here

Barryrob

Gabby

October 22nd 2004, 07:22 PM

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 07:28 PM

I'm done chatting with you barryrob. You have some serious issues, much more than I able to deal with. So I dust my sandals off and go my way.

chris

ps why don't you go and ask those in the witches, wiccans and pagan thread about the war. I bet you'd be surprised.
They do not claim to serve Jesus.

I take issues with those who claim to and show them the reality of what they are doing and expose falsehoods like Jesus did with no shame!

Barryod

Sparko

October 22nd 2004, 07:43 PM

When I was 13 I when to all the D-Day Beaches and in the English, U.S., Germans cemeteries looked at all the Crosses of all the 'Christian' soldiers who no doubt enjoyed their Turkey at Christmas and ended in a 6ft plot of ground for serving their so called God of peace whom they sung carols to at Christmas and thought nothing of sending them to die in the name of ‘peace’ and I studied the wars which only served to confirm I had made the right decision, to say way from the church as they where a waist of time.

It dawned on me just what it meant when Jesus said "those who live by 'the sword will die by the sword' and for what?
For WHAT? So YOU, a pugnacious, spiteful, ungrateful, legalistic, twit could freely express your disdain for their sacrifice using a free internet, freedom of speech, and you can walk down to your local restaurant and get your fish and chips without having to bow and scrape to a heinous dictator and yelling "heil hitler" at every turn.

THAT'S what for.

You are beginning to sicken me Barryrob. I had thought you were a nice guy, but your disrespect for those who sacrifice their lives for your freedom is the last straw.

You are nothing but a leach on society. Go move to some deserted island where you dont take advantage of those who died for your freedom.

barryrob

October 22nd 2004, 08:15 PM

For WHAT? So YOU, a pugnacious, spiteful, ungrateful, legalistic, twit could freely express your disdain for their sacrifice using a free internet, freedom of speech, and you can walk down to your local restaurant and get your fish and chips without having to bow and scrape to a heinous dictator and yelling "heil hitler" at every turn.

THAT'S what for.

You are beginning to sicken me Barryrob. I had thought you were a nice guy, but your disrespect for those who sacrifice their lives for your freedom is the last straw.

You are nothing but a leach on society. Go move to some deserted island where you dont take advantage of those who died for your freedom.

[/color]
You missed the whole point again John!!

For the sake of repetition, if they had been taught the Bible correctly they would have know that world powers involved in WW2 would just be a evil passing phase in the history of this earth with all the death and misery they spread over the earth and would soon be gone for good, Hitler (glad to say) went a lot quicker than the rest who do much the same as he did but are able to make themselves look more expectable whilst doing it.

For argument sake the natives that the English kicked of their Island in the Indian Ocean so they could sell it to the US for an Air Force Base thus turning a peaceful island into a harbinger of death and destroying the lives of hundreds of peace loving people and publicly lied to cover it up which has now been exposed via the TV reporter John pliger. If you want to bow done to them do so, as for me I will stick with Jesus the prince of peace and bringer of true justice.

Personaly I would rather die in peace than support war with a full belly, which I just might have to do one day.

I do not disrespect those who died, it make me sick to see they what they died for has been pushed aside for the sake of more militery power, commersial greed, and by the church who now condone the immoralites they died for. Ask yourself if these men and women came back to see what has been done to this world they fought and died for what would they think?

I have spoken and worked with ww2 soldiers (my uncel in Burma ww2, brother in law (in Burma against the communists) Para. from the battle of montie cassino to name a few) who are sickened by what the world powers whom they fought so hard for and seen thier comraides in arms die for have done to this world. So I think what they have to say bears more weight then your oneside view of this matter.

Barryrob

Sparko

October 22nd 2004, 08:45 PM

barryrob

October 23rd 2004, 06:55 AM

The only point I missed is the one on the top of your head.

You are an ungrateful twit. Those that died for your freedom deserve your respect. If America did not come over and save your sorry hide, you would be wearing lederhosen, yelling heil hitler and doing the goosestep.

And I doubt you would be a Jehovah's Witness. That would have been outlawed.

Grow up.

And how did you turn a discussion about Christmas into one about war?

Your pagan cult has no business telling me what I should and should not celebrate.
'Stick and stone may brake my bone but names will never hurt me' so goes the children’s rhyme. Your insults I do not mind as Jesus was treated much the same and told us to expect it also so just you fulfil his words, but never mind there are far more important things to talk of.

You still have totally miss the point of Jesus coming to this earth to offer himself as a sacrifice to save humans and to bring peace between them and God and each other.

I do not tell you what to do I show you the application of Bible principles like Jesus did in his day which most did not like then either.

We where outlawed in ALL the world powers (still are in some) that took part in the mass slaughtering of the WW2 particularly in Germany as we where sent to the Concentration Camps and some of our brothers beheaded as the Nazis did not consider us fit to wastes bullets on us Bible Students as we where called then. They also put my brother among the prostitutes and Black people and ones they the Nazis also considered to be sub human (as that is how they thought of us more or less) trying to brake our faith in the Prince Of Peace the one who has established peace not by the celebrating of some day but living peace day to day regardless of the cost to self (Matt 5:5). So we went on about preaching the Kingdom message to them as soon some of them became Christians right in the camps. Adolph Hitler said in one of his Nuremberg rails the he would annihilate the Bible Students (JWs) out of the Fatherland, interestingly more Jehovah's witnesses came out of the Concentration Camps than went in.

Freedom in this world is a very relative thing at best it differs in degree from nation to nation but men do not bring REAL freedom as their freedom is slavish devotion to some form of political system to which they demand the kind of devotion that only belongs to God and his son Jesus Christ this I reject, I only have one Leader Jesus:-

Matthew 23:10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ.

This you do not seem to like!?

Here are the things the Holy Spirit produced in the follower of the Prince of Peace, Jesus:-

Galatians 5:22-24
On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.

How strange War seem to be missing????

Now lets look at the other side of the coin:-

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

How strange again here we see the qualities that manifest themselves in all humans during the Wars of those who claim to worship the "Prince of Peace" during Christmas e.g. "enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions"

and here is also what God himself says on the pages of the Bible about humans that act in such a way:-

"As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom" so is becomes quite clear that God does not agree with their actions in War in any way as they have NO part in his "kingdom" arrangement or the Prince Of Peace that celebrate on the so call Mass To Christ or Christmas.

That is what God says in the Bible John I believe it and do my best to live by it. This I do not see in the Church otherwise I would be with them.

What does worry me herein John is the you seem to agree with some of the ideas of A. Hitler you agree to going to War!

Christian Love
Barryrob

barryrob

October 23rd 2004, 10:07 AM

The passage is not saying you can't have religious festivals, new moon celebrations or sabbaths. It is saying legalism about those things is WRONG. If you want to celebrate them, then thats fine. If you don't want to, then that is fine too.

It is saying don't let people like YOU tell us whether we can celebrate such things or not. It is saying that people like YOU who are legalistic to the point of insanity try to SEEM like you are godly, but you have lost your way, because Christ came to FREE us from the law, not put us under MORE regulations. my comments on what these verses mean in this color below

Colossian 2: 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_2)] God made you[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_3)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_4)]

we are no longer bound by legalistic regulations. we are free in Christ.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Don't let anyone tell you you can't celebrate a religious festival if you want to, or tell you that you must if you don't want to. They can't judge you because you are free under Christ.

17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

These things do not matter because Christ is the real thing.

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Don't let people who believe in legalism (false humility) and who worhip ANGELS (sound like you Jehovah's Witnesses who think Jesus was an Angel) tell you what to do. To put your faith in such works is to cut yourself off from your connection with Christ.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Since you no longer are subject to the law or this world, why do you still let legalistic jerks tell you what to do? They tell you "Don't eat Pork! Don't drink caffiene or alcohol! Don't do this or that!" But these things do not matter in the long run. These rules are all just rules made up by legalistic men and they will perish.

23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

These legalistic rules might appear to be godly and earn your way to God, but they are false and have no value in truly changing your ways. Only God can change your heart.

--

This is so so, but Jesus still only left only one celebration “The Lord’s Evening Meal” and the bit about angels but that goes with out saying!

Sparko

October 23rd 2004, 01:18 PM

Gabby

October 23rd 2004, 01:27 PM

AMEN John! (((((((John))))))))

barryrob

October 23rd 2004, 05:13 PM

Barryrob,

I want to apologize for getting mad at you and calling you names. I was wrong to do so.

But I come from a military family. My dad was in vietnam and my brother was in Desert Storm to help free Kuwait. I have know many soldiers who willingly fought and even suffered and died for the freedom of people like you. People who do not appreciate what a gift they were given of freedom. people who take things like religious freedom for granted and seem to denigrate and even dispise the people who made your freedom possible. In this country, vietnam veterans were treated with contempt and many veterans have suffered depression and illness from their own countrymen's treatment of them. So when I see someone like you who talks down about soldier's and their contrbutions to our freedom, it makes my blood boil.

You can hold whatever opinion you want. But don't push those opinions my way. I won't listen to you. I am sorry again for calling you names, but I am not sorry in any way about how I feel about people like you.

I am done with this thread. You are too stubborn to bother discussing anything with. When someone tries to reason with you, you just ignore their points and fall back to posting JW literature. When we point out the hypocricy of a pagan cult like yours calling US pagan for celebrating Christ's birth, you just post more JW literature.

Have fun living in your little closed off universe. Be sure to explain all this pagan stuff to Jesus when you stand before him in judgement. Maybe your wiccan buddies will be there to hold your hand.Hay no apology needed John I have no probs. with what you say I feel the same from the other end of the situation. My Granddad was Gassed in WW1 and it rotted his Lungs away, my 2 uncles where POWS under the Japanese so I know how you feel to some degree. My Brother in law (who died a few years ago) told me how when he went on patrol in the jungle they used illegal weapons a sawn of Shot gun and to make sure they kill they would open the Large ball cartage and fill the shot with Candle Wax so when it hit the target it exploded it, best in the chest/belly.

So do not assume I take anything for granted what they did, they leave priceless lessons for us to learn about peace if we can put aside our own personal feelings.

I do not view freedom the same as you do. The only freedom humans have is to worship God, as we are sinners who only deserve death. The freedom to worship God only comes from Him alone as this freedom can be done anywhere under any circumstance even the hardest of and any of times.

Yes I am stubben (if you want to put it like that) as you say for when I saw all the 1,000s of graves e.g. of all the US Solider in the greave yard for those who died on the beachhead of Utah and Omaha the size if a large Golf Coarse with a Sea of crosses and the odd Star for a Jew I felt stunned as I had been lead to believe of the “Give Me Death Or Glory” thinking, and it hit me like a stone in the face its about death with no glory just more death I felt sick to my heart then my Father took me on a tour of the Battle field of WW1 in France the following year and in the with more and more masses of Crosses for the allies and Black Marble for the German as I remember. That finished war in my eyes as a waist of life this is wrong from any view when I was 13/14 I have never lost that and never will. Then reading about the history of the Russian invasions when they a Had machine guns well behind their own line to shot deserts from the Front line and in WW1 they shot as deserts the are now know to have been suffering from shell shock and somewhat out of their mind due to Battle trauma, this also is wrong.

A few years ago I watched a TV program on the development of military weapons and the Armours show how the bullets (as then) where designed it tumble upon hitting the Target which would then roll the internal organs into a ball and the a bullet that saw designed to open into upon impact and splinter into many fine Needles to make the wound nearly inoperable.

Then I became informed in the Bible and saw the meaning of what Jesus had been talking about at last, I do not mean to offend but I cannot hold with carnal war in any way as there is a far more important spiritual warfare going on and it is taking 1,000,000s of casualties every year this is the war I must fight to the death and to its end and then world peace free for all (Matt .

Matthew 5:4-5
"Happy are those who mourn, since they will be comforted. 5 "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:9
"Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’

Sorry John I just cannot agree with your stand as I do not see Jesus in it our support the things I have outlined above!

As regards the Wiccans etc. they need our frendship because who else can they go to, Jesus died for them as well as us is that not so.

Barryrob

Sparko

October 23rd 2004, 07:22 PM

Barryrob, you better just quit while you are ahead. Dont go making an enemy of me.

I don't want to hear your simpering mock sympathy while you use it as a platform to preach about how wrong these brave soldiers were who gave their lives for your freedom.

You are sad at the price war took on these soldiers and others. I get that. But you don't think their sacrifice was necessary and you don't appreciate that without them, you would not be on TWEB posting your contempt of their sacrifice for you.

So, please stop while I can remain halfway civil about it. I beg of you.

barryrob

October 23rd 2004, 07:27 PM

barryrob

October 24th 2004, 04:23 AM

AMEN John! (((((((John))))))))You may agree with John but I wonder if you agree with Almighty God your maker and the one whom you say you obey and agree with on His ultimate view on all the militery?:-

Revelation 19:11-19
And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it [JESUS] is called Faithful and True, and he [JESUS] judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God [JESUS]. 14 Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he [JESUS] will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. 17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he [JESUS] cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great." 19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse [JESUS] and with his [JESUS] army.

Psalm 2:2
The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [JESUS],

Psalm 2:4-9
The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah himself will hold them in derision. 5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, 6 [Saying:] "I, even I, have installed my king [JESUS] Upon Zion, my holy mountain." 7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession. 9 You [JESUS] will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you [JESUS] will dash them to pieces."

Revelation 16:14
to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

Revelation 16:16
And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon.

This is what GOD says in the Bible and I do not think you or anyone is stronger or more right than he -God- is somhow!!!!

AMEN COME LORD JESUS to clean this earth from the scourge of war and those who do it.

So I ask again do you agree with the Almighty God of the universe or a human(s) because it will show just where your faith and what your faith is in really in??

Barryrob

Jin-Roh

December 25th 2004, 02:46 PM

:cheers:
Merry Christmas

Krusader

December 27th 2004, 11:36 AM

Hay no apology needed John I have no probs. with what you say I feel the same from the other end of the situation. My Granddad was Gassed in WW1 and it rotted his Lungs away, my 2 uncles where POWS under the Japanese so I know how you feel to some degree. My Brother in law (who died a few years ago) told me how when he went on patrol in the jungle they used illegal weapons a sawn of Shot gun and to make sure they kill they would open the Large ball cartage and fill the shot with Candle Wax so when it hit the target it exploded it, best in the chest/belly.

So do not assume I take anything for granted what they did, they leave priceless lessons for us to learn about peace if we can put aside our own personal feelings.

I do not view freedom the same as you do. The only freedom humans have is to worship God, as we are sinners who only deserve death. The freedom to worship God only comes from Him alone as this freedom can be done anywhere under any circumstance even the hardest of and any of times.

Yes I am stubben (if you want to put it like that) as you say for when I saw all the 1,000s of graves e.g. of all the US Solider in the greave yard for those who died on the beachhead of Utah and Omaha the size if a large Golf Coarse with a Sea of crosses and the odd Star for a Jew I felt stunned as I had been lead to believe of the “Give Me Death Or Glory” thinking, and it hit me like a stone in the face its about death with no glory just more death I felt sick to my heart then my Father took me on a tour of the Battle field of WW1 in France the following year and in the with more and more masses of Crosses for the allies and Black Marble for the German as I remember. That finished war in my eyes as a waist of life this is wrong from any view when I was 13/14 I have never lost that and never will. Then reading about the history of the Russian invasions when they a Had machine guns well behind their own line to shot deserts from the Front line and in WW1 they shot as deserts the are now know to have been suffering from shell shock and somewhat out of their mind due to Battle trauma, this also is wrong.

A few years ago I watched a TV program on the development of military weapons and the Armours show how the bullets (as then) where designed it tumble upon hitting the Target which would then roll the internal organs into a ball and the a bullet that saw designed to open into upon impact and splinter into many fine Needles to make the wound nearly inoperable.

Then I became informed in the Bible and saw the meaning of what Jesus had been talking about at last, I do not mean to offend but I cannot hold with carnal war in any way as there is a far more important spiritual warfare going on and it is taking 1,000,000s of casualties every year this is the war I must fight to the death and to its end and then world peace free for all (Matt .

Matthew 5:4-5
"Happy are those who mourn, since they will be comforted. 5 "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:9
"Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’

Sorry John I just cannot agree with your stand as I do not see Jesus in it our support the things I have outlined above!

As regards the Wiccans etc. they need our frendship because who else can they go to, Jesus died for them as well as us is that not so.

Barryrob
Jehovah's Witnesses are hypocritical. Some, who became JWs after serving in the army/navy, etc., take veterans' pensions. They won't salute the flag, but sure as heck will stand with their hand out, not to mention the free medical services they receive.

Why not be like the Amish, who won't even accept Social Security benefits.

Krusader

December 27th 2004, 03:16 PM

If you are talking about the Easter celebration it also is steeped in Paganism it is even named after the pagan Goddess it glorifies:-

"The English name Easter, like the German Ostern, probably derives from Eostur, the Norse word for the spring season, and not from Eostre, the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess."—The Encyclopaedia of Religion.

As is clearly seen from it's attendant symbols of fertility such as Eggs, and Rabbits etc.. As Jesus did not tell us to render worship this way and niether is it recorded in the Book of Acts that the early Christians followed such a religious practice.

We must all note this point:-

2 Corinthians 11:14
for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

and why? So he can make a religon that to all intense purposes looks right but is in fact a counterfit of the true faith as found in the Bible, so as it is of his making any service rendered through it does not go to Jehovah but goes to him. This is his way of getting uninformed humans to do what Jesus refused to do at:-

Matthew 4:8-10
Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

A 1/2 hr. on the www searching about the origins of Easter will show where it comes from.

Barryrob
Barryrob, Christians live under grace, something JWs no absolutely nothing about. Paul said that ALL things were lawful, though some may not be expedient. You should not be judging those that choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec. 25 - because, to his own master he stands or fall, and stand he will, because the Lord is able to make him stand.

barryrob

December 28th 2004, 05:59 PM

Barryrob, Christians live under grace, something JWs no absolutely nothing about. Paul said that ALL things were lawful, though some may not be expedient. You should not be judging those that choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec. 25 - because, to his own master he stands or fall, and stand he will, because the Lord is able to make him stand.

We do not Judge anyone (anyone can change the next day) but we do and will show people what they are doing that God will not except as Jesus said:-

John 3:19-21
Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."

Christmas is a work of Darkness!

Barryrob

Krusader

December 28th 2004, 07:54 PM

We do not Judge anyone (anyone can change the next day) but we do and will show people what they are doing that God will not except as Jesus said:-

John 3:19-21
Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."

Christmas is a work of Darkness!

Barryrob

Oh, Come On! Paul, himself, said not to judge another individual because they esteem one day above another. Read Galatians in a real translation and get back to me.

Sparko

December 29th 2004, 05:56 PM

Christmas is a work of Darkness!

Barryrob

Paul said not to judge others by what festivals they celebrate, Barryrob.

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

barryrob

December 30th 2004, 07:45 PM

Paul said not to judge others by what festivals they celebrate, Barryrob.

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Matthew 15:14
LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Sparko

December 30th 2004, 09:06 PM

So are you calling Paul a blind guide? or are you saying you agree that the JW's are blind guides and legalistic to the extreme and Paul indeed was preaching against such as them?

barryrob

December 31st 2004, 06:48 AM

So are you calling Paul a blind guide? or are you saying you agree that the JW's are blind guides and legalistic to the extreme and Paul indeed was preaching against such as them?

You know exatly who I mean and what I say:-

Many Church Leaders & members know the pagan roots of many of their teaching & thus are repressible before God as:-

Matthew 15:13-14
In reply he said: "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.". . .!!!

As I believe what the Bible says:-
Ephesians 4:4-6
One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

Everthing I say will by the very nature of Christian belief be orientated about the true Faith & to promote Pure Worship which is the only kind expectable to the God of the Bible Jehovah, as Jesus would except:-

Matthew 6:33
"Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness,. . ."

& not the unrighteousness of Paganised 'Christian' teaching which contain the:-

1 Corinthians 5:8
Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven*, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness**, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth***.
*Mosaic Law
**Including pagan ideas!
***Christmas is rooted in Paganisum & thus can only produce Pagan fruitage which is disgusting in God's sight!

As Jesus did not say or the Apostels say the his birthday should be celerbrated, then it is not a Bible based idea thus not of the God of the Bible!

Jesus brith is/should rembered by true Christians 24 7 365 days by obeying his teachings & helping others to OBEY Matt 6:33 & Matt 28:19-20 this is what Jesus said THAT TRUE CHTISTIANS MUST DO!

All who say that Chrsitmas is Christian are under the influance of the poeple that Isaiah spoke of as Jesus pointed out:-

Matthew 13:14-15
toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
Barryrob

Krusader

January 3rd 2005, 12:38 PM

You know exatly who I mean and what I say:-

Many Church Leaders & members know the pagan roots of many of their teaching & thus are repressible before God as:-

Matthew 15:13-14
In reply he said: "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.". . .!!!

As I believe what the Bible says:-
Ephesians 4:4-6
One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

Everthing I say will by the very nature of Christian belief be orientated about the true Faith & to promote Pure Worship which is the only kind expectable to the God of the Bible Jehovah, as Jesus would except:-

Matthew 6:33
"Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness,. . ."

& not the unrighteousness of Paganised 'Christian' teaching which contain the:-

1 Corinthians 5:8
Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven*, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness**, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth***.
*Mosaic Law
**Including pagan ideas!
***Christmas is rooted in Paganisum & thus can only produce Pagan fruitage which is disgusting in God's sight!

As Jesus did not say or the Apostels say the his birthday should be celerbrated, then it is not a Bible based idea thus not of the God of the Bible!

Jesus brith is/should rembered by true Christians 24 7 365 days by obeying his teachings & helping others to OBEY Matt 6:33 & Matt 28:19-20 this is what Jesus said THAT TRUE CHTISTIANS MUST DO!

All who say that Chrsitmas is Christian are under the influance of the poeple that Isaiah spoke of as Jesus pointed out:-

Matthew 13:14-15
toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
Barryrob
So, are you seeking Christ's righeousness, Barryrob. Are you one of the 144,000? If not, then you do not have Christ as your Mediator, but you have the organization as your Mediator.

As far as Christmas goes: the Angels (heavenly host) celebrated Christ's birth and so did the Wisemen. When do Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate His birth?

barryrob

January 4th 2005, 06:34 AM

So, are you seeking Christ's righeousness, Barryrob. Are you one of the 144,000? If not, then you do not have Christ as your Mediator, but you have the organization as your Mediator.
As far as Christmas goes: the Angels (heavenly host) celebrated Christ's birth and so did the Wisemen. When do Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate His birth?

We follow Jesus COMMAND to:-

Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

Once a year on at the same time Jesus said to, the evening that correspons to the jewish Passover as Jesus is the greater Passover.

Christian remember Jesus birth 24 7 365.

Barryrob

Gabby

January 4th 2005, 11:16 AM

Christian remember Jesus birth 24 7 365.

Barryrob

Your absolutely right! Is there a problem with variety??

barryrob

January 7th 2005, 09:39 PM

Your absolutely right! Is there a problem with variety??
Remembered not celebrated!

Barryrob

Sparko

January 7th 2005, 11:38 PM

Remembered not celebrated!

Barryrob
Whats wrong with celebration? doesnt the bible tell us to make a joyful noise? To be glad and full of joy? Didn't the angels celebrate and sing at the birth of Jesus?

Luke 2:10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-24977a)] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, 14“Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”

barryrob

January 8th 2005, 07:57 AM

Whats wrong with celebration? doesnt the bible tell us to make a joyful noise? To be glad and full of joy? Didn't the angels celebrate and sing at the birth of Jesus?

Luke 2:10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-24977a)] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, 14“Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”
It deepens whether one follows Pagan Traditions or Christian ones.

Barryrob

Sparko

January 8th 2005, 10:30 AM

It deepens whether one follows Pagan Traditions or Christian ones.

Barryrob
So now we have come full circle. Please actually READ the scripture this time and meditate upon it.

Colossians 2: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

--

So aren't New Moon celebration PAGAN? No where in the bible are we commanded to celebrate New Moons. Only Pagans do that. But Paul clearly says that you should not let anyone judge you if you do celebrate such. And he was clearly speaking to fellow Christians. So if it is OK to celebrate a New Moon, then it must be OK to celebrate a birthday. I mean even the Angels celebrated Jesus' birthday.

barryrob

January 8th 2005, 03:31 PM

So now we have come full circle. Please actually READ the scripture this time and meditate upon it.

Colossians 2: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

--

So aren't New Moon celebration PAGAN? No where in the bible are we commanded to celebrate New Moons. Only Pagans do that. But Paul clearly says that you should not let anyone judge you if you do celebrate such. And he was clearly speaking to fellow Christians. So if it is OK to celebrate a New Moon, then it must be OK to celebrate a birthday. I mean even the Angels celebrated Jesus' birthday.
Paul here was showing that spcial days from the Mosaic Law where of no use any more was God was now dealing with humans via Christ and not the Misaic traditions which where OK in thier time but Christ had now finished them.

So how much more usless would be tradtions founded on pagan and demonic rites!

Barryob

Sparko

January 8th 2005, 03:50 PM

Paul here was showing that spcial days from the Mosaic Law where of no use any more was God was now dealing with humans via Christ and not the Misaic traditions which where OK in thier time but Christ had now finished them.

So how much more usless would be tradtions founded on pagan and demonic rites!

Barryob
do you actually READ scripture or just the watchtower?

That is not what the scripture said, no matter how much you wish to twist it. He was denouncing legalism, the practice where people try to inflict useless rules and regulations upon Christians. Christ freed us from the Law. There is no condemnation for us any more. Don't let anyone try to make you keep false rules and regulations because false humility will get you no where. They say "don't do that, don't touch this" as if it had any value. But it doesn't.

Sound familiar? It is exactly what YOU and the Jehovah Witnesses do. You are so legalistic that you end up putting your faith in your legalism instead of Christ. Such a faith is USELESS. It counts for NOTHING. It actually keeps you AWAY from Christ.

That is what Paul was saying.

Krusader

January 10th 2005, 02:18 PM

We follow Jesus COMMAND to:-

Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

Once a year on at the same time Jesus said to, the evening that correspons to the jewish Passover as Jesus is the greater Passover.

Christian remember Jesus birth 24 7 365.

Barryrob

Yes, Barryrob, but when they pass the bread and juice in the Hall, do you partake of it? No, you let it pass by, since the New Covenant is only for 144,000, and you are not a part of that group. So, you watch the blood pass by.......................and you watch salvation pass by, too.

Sparko

January 10th 2005, 03:20 PM

Yes, Barryrob, but when they pass the bread and juice in the Hall, do you partake of it? No, you let it pass by, since the New Covenant is only for 144,000, and you are not a part of that group. So, you watch the blood pass by.......................and you watch salvation pass by, too.
Really? the pass the cup and let it go by? How sad.

Krusader

January 10th 2005, 05:31 PM

Really? the pass the cup and let it go by? How sad.
Yes, John, that is exactly what is done once a year (Nisan 17? is it), when the Watchtower people celebrate the Last Supper. Only if you are part of the 144,000 are you allowed to partake of the elements. The others, which are the vast majority of Watchtower members, observe only. In some Halls, since the great majority of the 144,000 are no longer on earth, of course nobody partakes.

The doctrine of the 144,000 cooked up by Rutherford and his cronies is one of the most nefarious doctrines ever concocted in the pit of hell. Not only can the majority not take communion, but they are also not considered to be in the New Covenant, have no Mediator, and only have a vague "hope" of eternal life. Also, they are told that the promises of eternal life in Scripture, and the instruction that one needs to be "born-again," regenerated in this life by faith in the Blood of Christ, are all intended for the 144,000 only.

They believe that their mediators are the 144,000! - not Jesus!

Sparko

January 10th 2005, 06:46 PM

and how does one know if they are part of the 144,000 or not?

The fact that they do not partake in the Lord's supper is their own "witness" against themselves that they are not part of the body of Christ and therefore not Christians or saved. Pretty ironic.

Gabby

January 10th 2005, 07:01 PM

Yes, John, that is exactly what is done once a year (Nisan 17? is it), when the Watchtower people celebrate the Last Supper. Only if you are part of the 144,000 are you allowed to partake of the elements. The others, which are the vast majority of Watchtower members, observe only. In some Halls, since the great majority of the 144,000 are no longer on earth, of course nobody partakes.

The doctrine of the 144,000 cooked up by Rutherford and his cronies is one of the most nefarious doctrines ever concocted in the pit of hell. Not only can the majority not take communion, but they are also not considered to be in the New Covenant, have no Mediator, and only have a vague "hope" of eternal life. Also, they are told that the promises of eternal life in Scripture, and the instruction that one needs to be "born-again," regenerated in this life by faith in the Blood of Christ, are all intended for the 144,000 only.

They believe that their mediators are the 144,000! - not Jesus!

YIKES!

So if they know who the 144,000 are, why would they bother debating theology? I mean, obviously I'm not of the 144,000, what difference would it make for them to change my mind about something like Christmas? Would it be a benefit to me or to them for me to change?

chris

Krusader

January 10th 2005, 07:25 PM

YIKES!

So if they know who the 144,000 are, why would they bother debating theology? I mean, obviously I'm not of the 144,000, what difference would it make for them to change my mind about something like Christmas? Would it be a benefit to me or to them for me to change?

chris
The non-144,000 JWs believe that the only way they can make it into the "new system of things," and not be destroyed at Armageddon, is by being in "Jehovah's organization," which is controlled by the few remaining of the 144,000 class. Most of the 144,000 have died off, and the remaining are getting fairly old. Since the organization has always been led by an "anointed" member of the 144,000 class, it remains to be seen who will lead their organization after the last one dies.

If a JW makes it into the "new system of things" after Armageddon, that individual will still not know whether or not they are worthy of eternal life, since Satan will be released at the end of the millenium and temp them into sin and falling away from "Jehovah's organization."

The reason they go to your door is because, 1) this is a work required by the organization, and you must do it to remain in good standing with the organization; 2) they really believe that you're going to get destroyed at Armageddon and that joining their group is the only way to survive; 3) the Watchtower makes tons of money off of the books they print. Their followers buy the books from central headquarters and they resell them to you.

This is a very sad state of affairs, and most Christians are unaware of the diabolical teachings that enslave these poor people.

barryrob

January 11th 2005, 05:29 AM

They believe that their mediators are the 144,000! - not Jesus!

WRONG!

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

Barryrob

Sparko

January 11th 2005, 11:19 AM

WRONG!

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

Barryrob

OK, but what about all the rest of it? Is Crusader right?

Do you think the Lord's supper is only for the 144,000? How do you know if you are one of them or not?

Who will lead you when they are all dead and gone?

Do you have an actual roll of who belongs to the 144,000 so you can keep track and make sure that you don't accidentally go over that ammount?

Paul writes to the church in Corinth to give them instructions on eating the Lord's supper and apparently he is speaking to the entire congregation. So does that mean everyone in Corinth were part of the 144,000? How do you keep track of all that?

17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! 23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

33So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

Krusader

January 11th 2005, 11:20 AM

WRONG!

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

Barryrob
Sorry Barryrob, but this is from your own Watchtower literature:

"Jesus is Mediator, then, for only these 144,000. And only they will ever be together with Jesus in heaven. For it is only "by means of this covenant (that) it became possible for them to gain heavenly life with Christ." (Survival Into A New Earth, pg. 72).

Speaking of the 144,000, the same book states "With Christ, they make up the agency by means of which blessing will be extended to all other obedient ones among manking." (Survival, pg. 65).

So, there are at least 144,001 Mediators, Jesus and the anointed ones (the 144,000). How can you honestly quote the verse you did, when the Society teaches a totally contrary view?

The reason you don't partake of the Lord's Supper is because you are not in the Blood Covenant, and never will be if you stick with this cruel and apostate organization.

Also see April 1, 1979 Watchtower, (Questions from Readers), which likewise states that Jesus is the Mediator for the anointed only.

Jin-Roh

January 11th 2005, 06:10 PM

Nice post Crusader.

Barryrob, the way you post and respond actually saddens me. I've started a seperate thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=124), I hope that you're beliefs allow you to respond.

barryrob

January 11th 2005, 08:22 PM

Sorry Barryrob, but this is from your own Watchtower literature:

"Jesus is Mediator, then, for only these 144,000. And only they will ever be together with Jesus in heaven. For it is only "by means of this covenant (that) it became possible for them to gain heavenly life with Christ." (Survival Into A New Earth, pg. 72).

Speaking of the 144,000, the same book states "With Christ, they make up the agency by means of which blessing will be extended to all other obedient ones among manking." (Survival, pg. 65).

So, there are at least 144,001 Mediators, Jesus and the anointed ones (the 144,000). How can you honestly quote the verse you did, when the Society teaches a totally contrary view?

The reason you don't partake of the Lord's Supper is because you are not in the Blood Covenant, and never will be if you stick with this cruel and apostate organization.

Also see April 1, 1979 Watchtower, (Questions from Readers), which likewise states that Jesus is the Mediator for the anointed only.You are still Worng

N.I.V. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

I do not need to be told what I believe or teach.

You are right in that Jesus mediats only for the 144,000 as they are in the Covernat for a Kingdom, The "Great Crowd" are NOT.
.

The 144,000 are Kings, judges and (under) priests, but NOT Mediators you are wrong!

Barryrob

Sparko

January 11th 2005, 09:23 PM

You are still Worng

N.I.V. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

I do not need to be told what I believe or teach.

You are right in that Jesus mediats only for the 144,000 as they are in the Covernat for a Kingdom, The "Great Crowd" are NOT.
.

The 144,000 are Kings, judges and (under) priests, but NOT Mediators you are wrong!

Barryrob

Ah, so you are saying that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000 and that you (the great crowd) have NO mediator at all?

OK. that is just even sadder than what Crusader said. I guess God does not even hear your prayers and petitions then, cuz Jesus is the mediator between only the 144,000 and the Father.

You have no representation.

barryrob

January 12th 2005, 05:31 AM

Ah, so you are saying that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000 and that you (the great crowd) have NO mediator at all?

OK. that is just even sadder than what Crusader said. I guess God does not even hear your prayers and petitions then, cuz Jesus is the mediator between only the 144,000 and the Father.

You have no representation.Jesus is the Mediator for the New Covenant for a Kingdom with the 144,000 (the real Israel of God), he is the Ransom Sacrifice (amongst other things) for all the rest of humankind, good or bad, and the means by which the benefits of that ransom is administered to mankind is via the Kingdom.

Much the same as the priesthood ministered to the Israelites then they ministered to the nations with a King as their head.

We -The Great Crowd- receive the benefits of what Jesus did, it is applied to us but we are not in the New Covernant (or born again, as we will live on earth only our Born Again Brs. & Sis. go to heaven the 144,000) but recive all the benefits of that covenant, e.g. Salvation of our souls along with a good relathionship with Jehovah.

For us as Christian followers of Jesus it is:-

John 15:11
"These things I have spoken to YOU, that my joy may be in YOU and YOUR joy may be made full.

Barryrob

Sparko

January 12th 2005, 11:02 AM

So, then I was right? You have no mediator?

You have no representation and your prayers just bounce off the ceiling.

Krusader

January 12th 2005, 12:56 PM

[QUOTE=JohnSparks]So, then I was right? You have no mediator?

You have no representation and your prayers just bounce off the ceiling.[/QUOTE

The JW book, Insight, Vol 2, pg. 363, states, "Jesus mediatorship operates solely toward those in the new covenant, i.e., the 144,000."

Forgiveness of sins is impossible without a mediator, thus the Great Crowd cannot obtain cleansing through the Blood of Christ from their sins.

This book also states that the 144,000 will "administer the blessing of Jesus sacrifice" including the forgiveness of sins. As intermediary agents, they somehow dispense some type of benefits and blessings of Christ's atonement. However, the Great Crowd is outside of the New Covenant, and the New Covenant, as we recall, was established by Christ's blood shed for the remission of sins. Only those in the New Covenant have the promise of forgiveness of sins, and those outside of the New Covenant (the Great Crowd) have no guarantee whatsoever that their sins will be forgiven.....but only have an invisible 144,000 in heaven somehow dispensing benefits.

Nowhere in Scripture (Rev. 7 or 14) does it state that the 144,000 are intermediate agents between Jesus and the Great Crowd. This is just a good example of Watchtower double-think: the Great Crowd is outside of the New Covenant but can still hope for forgiveness of sins.

Unless I'm mistaken, Jesus' blood was shed only for those in the New Covenant. If those outside of the New Covenant are forgiven for their sins based on Christ's death, then why bother being a Christian? You might just as well be a witch or a Buddhist!

Sparko

January 12th 2005, 02:19 PM

[QUOTE=JohnSparks]
Unless I'm mistaken, Jesus' blood was shed only for those in the New Covenant. If those outside of the New Covenant are forgiven for their sins based on Christ's death, then why bother being a Christian? You might just as well be a witch or a Buddhist!
As far as I know, those people who are not criminally evil (like Hitler) but instead are just ordinary sinners, like me and you, will also be resurrected in the millenium at which time we will have 1000 years to decide to become good JW's and become immortal.

So I see no reason why we can't just remain Christians and if for some unknowable reason, barryrob is right, we still get 1000 years to make up our minds. We are covered either way. However if we are right, then barryrob is in mortal danger.

barryrob

January 12th 2005, 08:12 PM

So, then I was right? You have no mediator?

You have no representation and your prayers just bounce off the ceiling.
I do not pray to Jesus I pray to Jehovah not his subordinate!

barryrob

January 12th 2005, 08:17 PM

As far as I know, those people who are not criminally evil (like Hitler) but instead are just ordinary sinners, like me and you, will also be resurrected in the millenium at which time we will have 1000 years to decide to become good JW's and become immortal.

So I see no reason why we can't just remain Christians and if for some unknowable reason, barryrob is right, we still get 1000 years to make up our minds. We are covered either way. However if we are right, then barryrob is in mortal danger.
Wrong!

Anyone who is disobediant to what Jehovah say and dies at Armageddon will not have another chance as they will go into total everlasting non existance with no hope of coming back as they will have been exicuted by God as wicked rebels to his expressed will via Jesus Christ his King, read Psalm 2!

Barryrob

Sparko

January 13th 2005, 04:31 PM

Wrong!

Anyone who is disobediant to what Jehovah say and dies at Armageddon will not have another chance as they will go into total everlasting non existance with no hope of coming back as they will have been exicuted by God as wicked rebels to his expressed will via Jesus Christ his King, read Psalm 2!

Barryrob
OK but if I live a good life as a Christian, how am I being disobedient to Jehovah? Is there a certain set of rules that I must follow in order to be saved in addition? and if so, do you have to follow the same rules? And do you?

How am I not being obedient to God?

And if I am then won't I be resurrected just like you, even if I am not a Jehovah's Witness?

barryrob

July 19th 2005, 07:49 AM

The reason they, [Christian Witnesses of Jehovah] go to your door is because,

is 1st
Matthew 22:36-38
He (Jesus) said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment.

2nd
39 "The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’"

3rd
Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

and

Matthew 10:5, 7
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, ... As YOU go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’"

which is still Jesus' command today for his disciples today.

Barryrob

Krusader

July 19th 2005, 01:57 PM

is 1st
Matthew 22:36-38
He (Jesus) said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment.

2nd
39 "The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’"

3rd

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

and

Matthew 10:5, 7
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, ... As YOU go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’"

which is still Jesus' command today for his disciples today.

Barryrob

Mormons go door to door. Many Baptists go door to door preaching. Seventh-day Adventists often go door-to-door preaching. Don't you really mean that to be spared thru the coming Armageddon you must go door-to-door preaching your spoon-fed doctrines emananting from the anointed class? You're not preaching the Good News of the Kingdom, you're preaching "everybody get in the organization, and MAYBE you'll be spared." There's a big difference.

sonofyah

August 15th 2005, 03:28 PM

Is Christmas Christian?

Barryrob

Christmas is absolutely Pagan! Every symbol from the tree to the card has pagan origins.

sonofyah

August 15th 2005, 03:40 PM

Christmas is absolutely Pagan! Every symbol from the tree to the card has pagan origins. Look here: Jer 10:3-5

Back to back posts are not allowed

sonofyah

August 15th 2005, 03:43 PM

Look here: Jer 10:3-5

Other cultures were celebrating Christmas way before Yahshua was born...

Good Topic!see above

sonofyah

August 15th 2005, 03:59 PM

No, I don't know it's pagan - we didn't slaughter a calf last Christmas at church, we didn't invoke the sun God to return, nor did we practice any fertility rites. The nearest we came to Teraphim we a manger display. however, a good time was had by family gathered together, as well as the brethren singing God's praises, for he was contracted to a span, for our sakes. Loving demonstrations were passed around, and all were glad our saviour came into the world.

Oh, oh, wait,didn't some other people use Dec 25th??? Oh, but they aren't here now, are they, they have gone, and Christianity reigns. sigh.

What is also a key point is that Christians say that it is the Messiahs birthday. This is contrary to word. Check Luke 2....I think it is Ok to get together on any occassion and sing praises to YHWH everyday, but to say that DEC. 25 date of Yahshua's birth is wrong. If he was the reason for the season then why do the crime rate go up 75% in certain areas every year around that time. Sorry, it just doesn't add up and if it is not in the Bible christians should not celebrate.

They have a choice

Skippy

August 16th 2005, 05:36 PM

Sorry, it just doesn't add up and if it is not in the Bible christians should not celebrate.
I added the underline above. If that is a blank and you have filled in "celebrate" I wonder... Should you be using the internet? Play baseball or golf? A computer? A car? A bicycle? Do you have a Television? Radio? I've seen "Kingdom Halls" but I don't recall anything in the New Testament (Greek scripture for you) about having a permanent meeting place...meetings were held in fellow Christian's homes (certainly NEVER in a football/baseball/rodeo stadium). We could come up with many other things which are not found in The Bible which are not in and of themselves bad/sinful to have/use.

December 25th is a day of the year. In Christian churches and Christian families it is one day set aside to specifically thank God for Jesus' birth. So what? As others have said, my family and I didn't worship the tree or anyother thing on Christmas, we worshiped God and thanked Him.

barryrob

August 17th 2005, 03:57 AM

I added the underline above. If that is a blank and you have filled in "celebrate" I wonder... Should you be using the internet? Play baseball or golf? A computer? A car? A bicycle? Do you have a Television? Radio? I've seen "Kingdom Halls" but I don't recall anything in the New Testament (Greek scripture for you) about having a permanent meeting place...meetings were held in fellow Christian's homes (certainly NEVER in a football/baseball/rodeo stadium). We could come up with many other things which are not found in The Bible which are not in and of themselves bad/sinful to have/use.

December 25th is a day of the year. In Christian churches and Christian families it is one day set aside to specifically thank God for Jesus' birth. So what? As others have said, my family and I didn't worship the tree or anyother thing on Christmas, we worshiped God and thanked Him.

Acts 19:9-10

[Paul] daily giving talks in the school [auditorium] of Tyrannus. 10 This took place for two years, so that all those inhabiting the [district of] Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks. . .

Paul in the above used other places to meet in his day showing other places can be used to further Kingdom Intrests.

Barryrob

barryrob

November 10th 2007, 05:06 AM

Shadow Phoenix

November 10th 2007, 08:13 AM

Its that time again soon:

"In the Roman Empire, by the time of Christ the winter festival was known as saturnalia. The Roman Church was unable to get rid of saturnalia, so early in the 4th Century, they adopted the holiday and tried to convert it a Christian celebration of the Lord's birth. They called it the Feast of the Nativity. This custom has been part of western culture ever since."–From http://www.carm.org/questions/christmas.htm

1 Corinthians 10:20
No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons....

barryrob

Wow BarryRob. I'm so sorry that your God is incapable of redeeming days and transforming them to celebrations of that which is good. You seen any followers of these pagans gods around lately? I haven't. It seems though that I see a lot of Christians around.

Well, come December, I plan on celebrating the birth of the one who came and died for me. If you don't want to celebrate that, well, it's your choice. I just consider it awesome that my God not only redeemed the calendar, but also redeemed the world.

barryrob

November 10th 2007, 12:45 PM

Wow BarryRob. I'm so sorry that your God is incapable of redeeming days and transforming them to celebrations of that which is good. You seen any followers of these pagans gods around lately? I haven't. It seems though that I see a lot of Christians around.

Well, come December, I plan on celebrating the birth of the one who came and died for me. If you don't want to celebrate that, well, it's your choice. I just consider it awesome that my God not only redeemed the calendar, but also redeemed the world.

Christmas is dedicated to the worship of Mithras, Isis & Horus, Sol (Sun) , Saturn, Marduk & Tiamat, Astarte, Rephan, Odin & Thor to name but a few!

barryrob

Longstreet

November 10th 2007, 03:14 PM

Its that time again soon:

And your arguments are as weak now as they were in 2004.

Christmas is dedicated to the worship of Mithras, Isis & Horus, Sol (Sun) , Saturn, Marduk & Tiamat, Astarte, Rephan, Odin & Thor to name but a few!
Ah, so that's why we call it MithIsHorSolSatMarTiaAstRephOdThoretalMas.

BTW, your CARM link is a good one. Too bad you weren't brave enough to post the parts that damage your arguments.

But to the original question, "Is Christmas Christian?" Charles Russell sure seemed to think so. Was he wrong then? Or are you wrong now?

Sparko

November 10th 2007, 03:21 PM

Christmas is dedicated to the worship of Mithras, Isis & Horus, Sol (Sun) , Saturn, Marduk & Tiamat, Astarte, Rephan, Odin & Thor to name but a few!

barryrob

really? show me where any christian has ever worshiped those Gods, on any day.

I worship JESUS.

oh wait, you dont even do that. You worship a magazine publisher.

barryrob

November 10th 2007, 06:00 PM

And your arguments are as weak now as they were in 2004.

Ah, so that's why we call it MithIsHorSolSatMarTiaAstRephOdThoretalMas.

BTW, your CARM link is a good one. Too bad you weren't brave enough to post the parts that damage your arguments.

But to the original question, "Is Christmas Christian?" Charles Russell sure seemed to think so. Was he wrong then? Or are you wrong now?

SATURNALIA/CHRISTMAS CLASSED AS DEMON WORSHIP
BY THE CHURCH AND THE BIBLE'
The Church, a letter from Bishop Polemius to Bishop Martin of Braga (c.574) condemning rustic worship:-
To the Most Holy and to me Most Beloved Brother in Christ, Bishop Polmius, Bishop Martin.
7. "Then the Devil of his ministers, demons, who were thrown down from heaven, seeing ignorant men . . . wandering after creatures, began to show themselves in different forms to men and to speak with them and to seek that men should offer them sacrifices on high mountains and in shady groves and worship them as God. They took on themselves the names of evil men who passed their lives in every crime and wicked deed. So one said he was Jove, . . . Another demon took the name Saturn, who, basking in cruelty, even devoured his sons at birth."-'Christianity and Paganism, 350-750' by J. N. Hillgarth p.58

Show me anywhere in the book of Acts where the followers of Jesus did a Christmas thing?
barryrob

barryrob

November 10th 2007, 06:08 PM

Sparko;2129333]really? show me where any christian has ever worshiped those Gods, on any day.[/SIZE]

I worship JESUS.

oh wait, you dont even do that. You worship a magazine publisher.

I worship JESUS. Do You? The this should be of intrest:
According to Matthew’s Gospel, chapters 26 and 27, Jesus was executed on Nisan 14, late in the day of the Jewish Passover that had begun on March 31, 33 C.E. We learn from Luke’s Gospel that Jesus was about 30 years old when he was baptized and began his ministry. (Luke 3:21-23*) That ministry lasted three and a half years. Therefore, Jesus was about 33 1/2 years old when he died. He would have turned 34 about October 1, 33 C.E. Luke reports that at the time of Jesus’ birth, shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:8**) Shepherds would not have been out with their flocks in the cold of December, when it may even snow in the vicinity of Bethlehem. But they could have been there with their flocks about October 1, which according to the evidence is when Jesus was born.

Sparko

November 10th 2007, 06:25 PM

[/size]

I worship JESUS. Do You?

yes I do.
and the bible says that only God should be worshiped. Being a Trinitarian, that is not a problem for me since Jesus is God.

But hoo-boy, if your Elders saw that you worship Jesus you could be excommunicated. That is idolotry for a JW. Either that or since you think Jesus is "a" god, then you are worshipping another god and that is polytheism.

So are you an idoloter or a polytheist, barryrob?

Shadow Phoenix

November 10th 2007, 07:37 PM

Christmas is dedicated to the worship of Mithras, Isis & Horus, Sol (Sun) , Saturn, Marduk & Tiamat, Astarte, Rephan, Odin & Thor to name but a few!

barryrob

Wow. So your God can't take the actions that men intend for evil and use them for good? What a pathetically weak God you serve! My God is able to take all evil done and use it for good.

In fact, my God is able to take a day that the pagans originally used to honor their false gods, and turn it into a day to honor his revelation into the world in Jesus Christ.

I will celebrate this Christmas worshiping Jesus Christ. Mithras, Isis, Horus, and all the others are not my redeemer. Christ is. I will worship him.

Longstreet

November 11th 2007, 04:14 AM

SATURNALIA/CHRISTMAS CLASSED AS DEMON WORSHIP
BY THE CHURCH AND THE BIBLE'
The Church, a letter from Bishop Polemius to Bishop Martin of Braga (c.574) condemning rustic worship:-
To the Most Holy and to me Most Beloved Brother in Christ, Bishop Polmius, Bishop Martin.
7. "Then the Devil of his ministers, demons, who were thrown down from heaven, seeing ignorant men . . . wandering after creatures, began to show themselves in different forms to men and to speak with them and to seek that men should offer them sacrifices on high mountains and in shady groves and worship them as God. They took on themselves the names of evil men who passed their lives in every crime and wicked deed. So one said he was Jove, . . . Another demon took the name Saturn, who, basking in cruelty, even devoured his sons at birth."-'Christianity and Paganism, 350-750' by J. N. Hillgarth p.58
Well, that was interesting. And irrelevant.

A fun link re the WTBTS founders and Christmas...
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/bethelxmas.html

Show me anywhere in the book of Acts where the followers of Jesus did a Christmas thing?
barryrob
There aren't any.

Now it's your turn.

Show me anywhere in the book of Acts where the followers of Jesus Christ collected money to buy a building in which to worship.

OldShepherd

November 11th 2007, 04:44 AM

OldShepherd

November 11th 2007, 04:48 AM

Christmas is absolutely Pagan! Every symbol from the tree to the card has pagan origins.

Back it up or pack it up. And I mean credible, verifiable, historical evidence not the standard knee jerk cut/paste from Anti-Christians-я-us.com®.

Sparko

November 11th 2007, 03:00 PM

Well, that was interesting. And irrelevant.

A fun link re the WTBTS founders and Christmas...
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/bethelxmas.html

There aren't any.

Now it's your turn.

Show me anywhere in the book of Acts where the followers of Jesus Christ collected money to buy a building in which to worship.

I really liked this part:

47496

so, barry, now that you have seen the watchtower endorse Christmas, does that mean

a> Christmas is OK to celebrate, or
b> the WTBTS is a pagan organization that worships Mithras, Saturn, etc?

Merry Christmas Barry!

barryrob

November 12th 2007, 05:02 AM

I really liked this part:

47496

so, barry, now that you have seen the watchtower endorse Christmas, does that mean

a> Christmas is OK to celebrate, or
b> the WTBTS is a pagan organization that worships Mithras, Saturn, etc?

Barry!

You know jsur as everbody else does that when Jehovah's witnesses realised who Pagan Christmas was WE STOPED DOING IT whcih the Churches did not, thus they stioll render worship to Demons, we stoped many years ago as true worshipers.

Sparko

November 12th 2007, 09:49 AM

You know jsur as everbody else does that when Jehovah's witnesses realised who Pagan Christmas was WE STOPED DOING IT whcih the Churches did not, thus they stioll render worship to Demons, we stoped many years ago as true worshipers.

So you are saying that Charles Russel and the Watchtower were wrong to celebrate Christmas?

Are you saying that Charles Taze Russell was a demon worshiper? and the entire watchtower society and all the followers? Doesn't that mean that the Jehovah's Witnesses were started by Satan then? I mean if you go look at Russell's grave you will see it has pagan crosses all over it and it is a giant pyramid which is a symbol used by demon worshiping egyptians who worshiped Ra the sun God and Anubis the god of the dead.

I thought they got their revelations from God? Why did they think Christmas was good in the first place for so many years?

Maybe they were right about Christmas at first and some later leader that came along lied and said that Christmas was wrong to celebrate?

What else might they be wrong about even today?

Shadow Phoenix

November 12th 2007, 10:10 AM

Sparko

November 12th 2007, 10:48 AM

I am surprised that barry would dare call Russell a demon worshiper.

Longstreet

November 12th 2007, 03:04 PM

You know jsur as everbody else does that when Jehovah's witnesses realised who Pagan Christmas was WE STOPED DOING IT whcih the Churches did not, thus they stioll render worship to Demons, we stoped many years ago as true worshipers.

Now wait a minute and let me see if I get this.

You're telling me the WTBTS thought Christmas was okay, and then stopped when they realized it was not.

The first issue of Zion's Watch Tower came out in 1879. In 1926 they were still having Christmas parties and sending out cards. That's 47 years. I don't know the exact date they quit celebrating Christmas (and frankly don't care enough to look it up), but we can safely assume that for at least 47 years Christmas was copacetic with Russell and the other founders of the WTBTS.

So you're telling me it took "The Laodecian Messenger"and his hand-picked successors at least 47 years to figure out something that Bishops Polemius and Martin knew in 574 A.D.??

That doesn't sound like something we would expect from Jehovah's very own messengers.

So I'll ask it again. Was Russell wrong then? And if he was, what else did he get wrong? Or are you wrong now? And if so, what else are you getting wrong?

Still waiting for your cites regarding churches owning buildings.

Shadow Phoenix

November 12th 2007, 10:04 PM

You know Barry, I'm just sad about how weak your God is.

I'm expected to believe he's able to redeem me from the grave, but he can't redeem a single day on the calendar? As soon as something pagan enters, your God is powerless?

I'm supposed to believe that he can take evil and use it for good, but he can't even do that with a single day to make a day the pagans had used turn and be used to bring glory to his true revelation?

Dang. That's a really weak god that you've got there.

You know, I think I'll stick with the God revealed in Jesus Christ who overcame paganism so much so that he transformed even their own days and used them to bring glory to himself. That sounds like an awesome God to me.

And I think i will worship the Son on Christmas. Why not? I do it the other 364 days of the year.

Sparko

November 12th 2007, 10:34 PM

Y
And I think i will worship the Son on Christmas. Why not? I do it the other 364 days of the year.

exactly!!!

Sparko

November 14th 2007, 01:22 PM

hmmm. I hear crickets chirping....

Shadow Phoenix

November 15th 2007, 12:56 AM

It's a shame Barry hasn't come to tell me why his God is incapable of using the wicked actions of men to bring about good.

OldShepherd

November 15th 2007, 08:13 AM

While I agree that God can redeem days, weeks, months, as he redeems mankind, I have been waiting for years for someone to show me credible, verifiable, historical evidence that anything, including the date, associated with Christmas, was pagan. I don't mean that secularized, commercialized stuff in the market place, the media, etc. I'm talking about in the house of God among God's people.

I will start of with this rebuttal. I have often heard the lame old schtick that Mithras was born on December 25, his birth was attended by wise men, shepherds, was in a manger, etc., etc. etc.

All nonsense! There is absolutely nothing known about the Mithras cult, they left NO, ZERO, NONE writings concerning their beliefs, practices, etc. The only historical artifacts left by the Mithras followers was iconography, i.e statues, paintings, and carvings in their prayer grottoes. Various scholars have advanced different theories what the artifacts mean.

Nothing of Christianity could have been copied from Mithras because the entire N.T. was written before the Mithras cult arrived in Rome, at the end of the 1st century.

References on request. The article in Encyclopedia Britannica is most enlightening.

Shadow Phoenix

November 15th 2007, 09:52 AM

OldShepherd

November 16th 2007, 04:25 AM

OldShepherd. Make sure you don't watch the Zeitgeist movie anytime. It starts out with the first third being all about how Jesus is a copycat of other pagan deities including Mithras. (And this is what so many young atheists are shouting out about.)

TY I know, I have been phighting the philistines for several decades and the only "evidence" they can produce is a copy/paste from AntiChristians-я-us.com®. The theory is, I guess, if it is posted somewhere, anywhere, by anybody, and it attacks Christianity then it must be true.

Sparko

November 16th 2007, 10:17 AM

Barry is probably off shopping for Christmas presents.

barryrob

November 17th 2007, 12:37 PM

Back it up or pack it up. And I mean credible, verifiable, historical evidence not the standard knee jerk cut/paste from Anti-Christians-я-us.com®.

Wicca Lessons, the Wheel of the Year - THE WINTER SOLSTICE: YULE - 21st DECEMBER
Yule is the time we celebrate the return of the waxing sun. …
We encourage the sun to rise and to grow in power, and we remember the seasons of plenty. …
The fir tree represents life amidst death, it is evergreen, representing everlasting life, and lasting friendship. …
Holly and Mistletoe bear berries at this time, symbolizing fertility.
Mistletoe berries are white, representing the semen of the Horned God, the Holly berries are blood red, symbolizing both the menstrual blood of the Goddess and the sacrifice of the God.
Evergreen trees also represent youth and freshness, and are symbols of the promise of spring.
A yule custom, still practised at Christmas is to dress an evergreen tree, .....

From http://www.avalonia.co.uk/wicca/lessons/lesson7.htm

barryrob

November 17th 2007, 12:43 PM

It's a shame Barry hasn't come to tell me why his God is incapable of using the wicked actions of men to bring about good.

God will answer you:-

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Ecclesiastes 1:15
That which is made crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot possibly be counted.

Inspired of God

barryrob

November 17th 2007, 12:49 PM

So you are saying that Charles Russel and the Watchtower were wrong to celebrate Christmas?

Are you saying that Charles Taze Russell was a demon worshiper? and the entire watchtower society and all the followers? Doesn't that mean that the Jehovah's Witnesses were started by Satan then? I mean if you go look at Russell's grave you will see it has pagan crosses all over it and it is a giant pyramid which is a symbol used by demon worshiping egyptians who worshiped Ra the sun God and Anubis the god of the dead.

I thought they got their revelations from God? Why did they think Christmas was good in the first place for so many years?

Maybe they were right about Christmas at first and some later leader that came along lied and said that Christmas was wrong to celebrate?

What else might they be wrong about even today?

Like many others T. Russell we:-
Acts 3:19
"Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah

and
Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus.

barryrob a sinner also

Shadow Phoenix

November 17th 2007, 01:02 PM

God will answer you:-

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

This is your conclusion. It can't be your premise also. Bad logic!

Ecclesiastes 1:15
That which is made crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot possibly be counted.

Inspired of God

Then woe to everyone for we are all crooked and therefore we cannot possibly be redeemed.

Now see what God said in Genesis 50:20.

Sorry Barry. Your god is weak.

Sparko

November 17th 2007, 02:08 PM

Like many others T. Russell we:-
Acts 3:19
"Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah

and
Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus.

barryrob a sinner also

but T. russell never repented of celebrating Christmas, and he even has crosses decorating his PYRAMID tombstone. So you are saying your religion was started by an unrepentant demon worshiper.

Can good fruit come from a bad tree Barry? How can you say that the watchtower is correct and blessed by God when the founder of your religion was by your own standards a pagan demon worshiper?

let me quote your own verses back to you:

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Ecclesiastes 1:15
That which is made crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot possibly be counted.

So if Russel was bad, how can you call him good? if the watchtower was wrong and pagan demon worshipers, then how can you say they are good?

If they were crooked, how can they be called straight?

Longstreet

November 17th 2007, 02:56 PM

Sparko beat me to it.

OldShepherd

November 17th 2007, 08:41 PM

Wicca Lessons, the Wheel of the Year - THE WINTER SOLSTICE: YULE - 21st DECEMBER
Yule is the time we celebrate the return of the waxing sun. …
We encourage the sun to rise and to grow in power, and we remember the seasons of plenty. …
The fir tree represents life amidst death, it is evergreen, representing everlasting life, and lasting friendship. …
Holly and Mistletoe bear berries at this time, symbolizing fertility.
Mistletoe berries are white, representing the semen of the Horned God, the Holly berries are blood red, symbolizing both the menstrual blood of the Goddess and the sacrifice of the God.
Evergreen trees also represent youth and freshness, and are symbols of the promise of spring.
A yule custom, still practised at Christmas is to dress an evergreen tree, .....

from http://www.avalonia.co.uk/wicca/lessons/lesson7.htm

Perhaps you did not understand what I asked. I will repeat it credible, verifiable, historical evidence not a cut/paste from C.U.L.T.S-я-us.com®. This website is hardly more than a decade or so old, not historical information. Also while the winter solstice December 21 is close to December 25, close only counts in grenades and horsehoes. Therefore this says abso-diddly nothing about Dec 25. Further all the things mentioned in this article, e.g. mistletioe, evergreens,, holly, etc have nothing to do with the observance of the birth of the Lord as observed in God's house by God's people.

Thus your objections are based on hearsay, rumor, gossip not verifiable fact.

Sparko

November 17th 2007, 11:03 PM

Perhaps you did not understand what I asked. I will repeat it credible, verifiable, historical evidence not a cut/paste from C.U.L.T.S-я-us.com®. This website is hardly more than a decade or so old, not historical information. Also while the winter solstice December 21 is close to December 25, close only counts in grenades and horsehoes. Therefore this says abso-diddly nothing about Dec 25. Further all the things mentioned in this article, e.g. mistletioe, evergreens,, holly, etc have nothing to do with the observance of the birth of the Lord as observed in God's house by God's people.

Thus your objections are based on hearsay, rumor, gossip not verifiable fact.

not to mention that wicca is just a modern invented religion, that has only been around for a few decades. Christmas celebration outdates wicca by millenia.

barryrob

November 18th 2007, 07:59 AM

not to mention that wicca is just a modern invented religion, that has only been around for a few decades. Christmas celebration outdates wicca by millenia.

No the less (if that is so), you do the same as they do!!

Shadow Phoenix

November 18th 2007, 09:16 AM

*Still waits for Barry to tell me why his god is so scared of pagans and can't redeem anything used for evil to be used for good.*

Longstreet

November 18th 2007, 02:44 PM

No the less (if that is so), you do the same as they do!!

And so did Charles Taze Russell, "Judge" Rutherford and the rest of the WTBTS leadership.

There are 2 lines of thought going here, and you haven't adequately addressed either one.

barryrob standard 1: Christmas is a pagan celebration. The evidence is clear and has been known for centuries. According to barryrob's cites, a crooked thing cannot be made straight, and those that try to make the darkness light will not find Jehovah's favor.

Response: If that's true, then Russell died apostate, a demon-worshipper of the worst kind. That apostasy continues today, as he is still buried under pagan symbols similar to the ones we are discussing. The WTBTS has made no effort to disassociate itself from Russell or his teachings, as they should such a gross demon-worshipper, nor have they modified or removed his gravestone and/or monument. Since that is the case, by your own standards you and the WTBTS are condemned, because you have tried to make a crooked thing straight, and tried to make the light dark and the darkness light. This is the standard you have set.

barryrob standard 2: There is no recorded instance in Acts (or the rest of the New Testament for that matter) of the early church celebrating Christmas. It is therefore not allowed, and those that do such a thing are sinning.

Response: There is no mention in the NT of churches collecting money to buy property and build a building in which to worship either. Yet the WTBTS and it's local congregations take the money that Jehovah has blessed them with and built monuments to themselves in the form of so-called "Kingdom Halls". Since there is no mention of "Kingdom Halls" in the NT there is no way that Jehovah can view such a thing favorably, and as long as you retain this property you are sinning grossly against Jehovah. This is the standard you have set.

I want to see the WTBTS repudiate Russell and all his teachings, jackhammer and/or dynamite the pyramid and the headstone at his gravesite, and start worshipping in borrowed buildings, or homes, or the local park pavilion. Until then you and the rest of the WTBTS are guilty of gross inconsistency and hypocrisy, preaching one standard for yourselves and another for others. And worse, this is not inconsistency and hypocrisy in behavior (which is lamentable but understandable, as we are all fallen) but in teaching the means to Jehovah's favor and indeed, our very salvation.

It is waaay past time for the WTBTS to examine it's own beliefs in the same way it challenges others to.

barryrob

November 18th 2007, 08:03 PM

This is your conclusion. It can't be your premise also. Bad logic!

Then woe to everyone for we are all crooked and therefore we cannot possibly be redeemed.

Now see what God said in Genesis 50:20.

Sorry Barry. Your god is weak.

Our God is the srtongest for "pure" worship, thus we clean ourselves from pagan ideas:-

1 John 3:3
And everyone who has this hope set upon him purifies himself just as that one is pure.

barryrob

barryrob

November 19th 2007, 09:51 AM

*Still waits for Barry to tell me why his god is so scared of pagans and can't redeem anything used for evil to be used for good.*

As Paul wrote to save us from sinning:-

1 Timothy 1:15-16
Faithful and deserving of full acceptance is the saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost. 16 Nevertheless, the reason why I was shown mercy was that by means of me as the foremost case Christ Jesus might demonstrate all his long-suffering for a sample of those who are going to rest their faith on him for everlasting life.

2 Timothy 2:19
For all that, the solid foundation of God stays standing, having this seal: "Jehovah knows those who belong to him,". . .

Jehovah fears non, but trys ti help humans to stop doing what is bad for their own benefit (e.g. to avoid sinning):-

Isaiah 48:17-18
This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. 18 O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

As you know paganisum is Devil Worship & any form of it MUST be avoided by anyone who claims to be a christian.

N.I.V. 2 Cor. 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

braayrob

Shadow Phoenix

November 19th 2007, 10:00 AM

As Paul wrote to save us from sinning:-

1 Timothy 1:15-16
Faithful and deserving of full acceptance is the saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost. 16 Nevertheless, the reason why I was shown mercy was that by means of me as the foremost case Christ Jesus might demonstrate all his long-suffering for a sample of those who are going to rest their faith on him for everlasting life.

2 Timothy 2:19
For all that, the solid foundation of God stays standing, having this seal: "Jehovah knows those who belong to him,". . .

Jehovah fears non, but trys ti help humans to stop doing what is bad for their own benefit (e.g. to avoid sinning):-

Isaiah 48:17-18
This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. 18 O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

As you know paganisum is Devil Worship & any form of it MUST be avoided by anyone who claims to be a christian.

N.I.V. 2 Cor. 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

braayrob

Wow. A series of verses that have nothing to do with the claim. Yeah though. You're really hurt spiritually by getting together with friends and family and celebrating the coming of Christ in the world. If that doesn't kill your faith, then it must be invincible!

Sparko

November 19th 2007, 10:04 AM

As you know paganisum is Devil Worship & any form of it MUST be avoided by anyone who claims to be a christian.

N.I.V. 2 Cor. 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

braayrob

therefore you are saying that the watchtower and Russell are pagaon demon worshipers and so are you by association with them. For what harmony is there between Christ and Satan worshipers?

Your own words condemn yourself and your cult.

Shadow Phoenix

November 20th 2007, 09:40 AM

Barry must be out buying Christmas presents again. I hope he got me something nice.

Sparko

November 20th 2007, 12:08 PM

Barry must be out buying Christmas presents again. I hope he got me something nice.

probably busy searching his watchtower CDs for some other verses to post out of context.

Shadow Phoenix

November 20th 2007, 09:01 PM

probably busy searching his watchtower CDs for some other verses to post out of context.

I want a copy of the Declaration of Facts for Christmas.

OldShepherd

November 21st 2007, 05:34 AM

probably busy searching his watchtower CDs for some other verses to post out of context.

Hey I got onea them. Someone on another forum sent me the whole thing a part at a time until I have the whole thing. Unfortunately the guy who was selling those, "Heinz Schmidt" (sp?) shut down his website and he is now an atheist.

barryrob

November 21st 2007, 06:21 PM

probably busy searching his watchtower CDs for some other verses to post out of context.

Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are just an exhalation, because it is a mere tree out of the forest that one has cut down, the work of the hands of the craftsman with the billhook.
4 With silver and with gold one makes it pretty. With nails and with hammers they fasten them down, that none may reel.

An Intresting verse on the making of IDOLS which can well apply to the IDOLATROUS Christmass Tree!

barryrob

Sparko

November 21st 2007, 06:54 PM

Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are just an exhalation, because it is a mere tree out of the forest that one has cut down, the work of the hands of the craftsman with the billhook.
4 With silver and with gold one makes it pretty. With nails and with hammers they fasten them down, that none may reel.

An Intresting verse on the making of IDOLS which can well apply to the IDOLATROUS Christmass Tree!

barryrob

and the watchtower and Russell decorated christmas trees too. so that means that they were idol worshipers and demon worshipers. If the early JW's were around today, the watchtower would excommunicate them

So are you going to answer how something crooked can be made straight? That was your verse right? that something crooked cant be made straight? so if the watchtower and russell celebrated Christmas and decorated christmas trees, then they were crooked. How can you believe in the cult they started? how can it claim to be striaght now if it was crooked?

barryrob

November 21st 2007, 08:07 PM

and the watchtower and Russell decorated christmas trees too. so that means that they were idol worshipers and demon worshipers. If the early JW's were around today, the watchtower would excommunicate them

So are you going to answer how something crooked can be made straight? That was your verse right? that something crooked cant be made straight? so if the watchtower and russell celebrated Christmas and decorated christmas trees, then they were crooked. How can you believe in the cult they started? how can it claim to be striaght now if it was crooked?

As I said until they saw it was WRONG, or do you wnet to forget that?

We droped it or do you not want to hear that because most want fun insted of truth!

Sparko

November 21st 2007, 08:47 PM

As I said until they saw it was WRONG, or do you wnet to forget that?

We droped it or do you not want to hear that because most want fun insted of truth!

but you also said:

Isaiah 5:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isaiah+5%3A20)
Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Ecclesiastes 1:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ecclesiastes+1%3A15)
That which is made crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot possibly be counted.

So, how can you claim that the watchtower is now good if it sprang from bad fruit? if the founders were demon worshipping idolators, how can they have started the only correct religion in the world? How can Russell be the mouthpiece of God if he got Christmas wrong? Why didn't God tell him that?

And how can new light contradict old light? If the old light said that Christmas and Christmas trees was right, how can new light contradict that? That is saying that they were not prophets of God, and they were pagans.

How can pagans have started the right religion?

Your foundation is shifting sand and utter corruption, how can your faith be solid and correct?

Longstreet

November 22nd 2007, 12:54 AM

As I said until they saw it was WRONG, or do you wnet to forget that?

None of us have forgotten that barry.

You, on the other hand, have forgotten to respond to certain points that have been raised.

Since the WTBTS didn't stop celebrating Christmas until well after Charles Russell died, that means he died apostate. By your own standards. The founder of your religion worshipped idols. Since man cannot serve two masters, that means he was not worshipping Jehovah, however well-intentioned he may have been.

So I'll ask the questions again (not that I really expect an honest answer):

When will the WTBTS repudiate Russell and all his teachings?

When will the WTBTS remove the pagan symbols at his gravesite?

When will the WTBTS hold it's founders and itself to the same standards it holds everyone else?

I'm guessing the answer is "Never".

OldShepherd

November 22nd 2007, 04:46 AM

Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are just an exhalation, because it is a mere tree out of the forest that one has cut down, the work of the hands of the craftsman with the billhook.
4 With silver and with gold one makes it pretty. With nails and with hammers they fasten them down, that none may reel.

An Intresting verse on the making of IDOLS which can well apply to the IDOLATROUS Christmass Tree!

Not that it is relevant to the observance of the birth of the Lord, as practiced by the people of God, let us not forget, never, at any time, have you provided the least shred of evidence that anything associated with Christmas trees was idolatrous. If you continue make allegations which you cannot back up, that is tantamount to lying.

barryrob

November 22nd 2007, 05:47 AM

Not that it is relevant to the observance of the birth of the Lord, as practiced by the people of God, let us not forget, never, at any time, have you provided the least shred of evidence that anything associated with Christmas trees was idolatrous. If you continue make allegations which you cannot back up, that is tantamount to lying.

The Story of Christmas by Michael Harrison p.240
"The Tree-Since, wherever they originated, the ancestors of the Teutonic peoples came to a long halt in the impenetrable forests which stretched between the Rhine and the Volga-was one of the principal religious symbols of the Woden-worshipping Teuton. The Tree is still the principal religious symbol of Christmas-keeping Germans today. It is, indeed the Germans Christmas symbol par excellence, and a foreigner's love of the exotic, disseminated its worship throughout the world."

OldShepherd

November 22nd 2007, 09:17 AM

The Story of Christmas by Michael Harrison p.240
"The Tree-Since, wherever they originated, the ancestors of the Teutonic peoples came to a long halt in the impenetrable forests which stretched between the Rhine and the Volga-was one of the principal religious symbols of the Woden-worshipping Teuton. The Tree is still the principal religious symbol of Christmas-keeping Germans today. It is, indeed the Germans Christmas symbol par excellence, and a foreigner's love of the exotic, disseminated its worship throughout the world."

Some unknown dood posts a bunch of smack on his website and that automatically makes it true? I suppose if I find some website that talks about how corrupt and phony the WBTS is, then it must be true, right?

Try this, credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Something written by a person who lived at or near the time in question, a participant in or direct eyewitness to the events. Anything written in a book or posted on the internet is absolutley worthless unless it quotes first hand sources. And my firiend you do not have any such thing and you will neer have any such thing.

Shadow Phoenix

November 22nd 2007, 01:35 PM

Longstreet

November 22nd 2007, 03:15 PM

If you continue make allegations which you cannot back up, that is tantamount to lying.
Judging from conversations I've had with JW's in the past (and this one as well), Truth is a very flexible and amorphous concept in that particular cult. The ease with which they distort, dissemble and mislead is breath-taking.

Gonna answer my questions barry?

MrManNo1

November 23rd 2007, 03:54 PM

barry, what language is English based on?

MrManNo1

November 28th 2007, 07:55 PM

barry, why didn't you respond to me? I want to know what language English is based on. From what I've seen, it's based on Germanic, which dates back to about the 1st millennium BC. Since it is pre-Christian, and certainly not of Jewish origin, then it is pagan. Why do you speak a pagan-based language, barry? If you truly didn't do anything that pagans do, then you would learn Hebrew and speak it exclusively.

Sparko

November 28th 2007, 09:05 PM

MrManNo1

November 28th 2007, 09:12 PM

maybe he decided to stop using his pagan computer to access this pagan website though the pagan internet.

Seems that way.

Shadow Phoenix

November 28th 2007, 09:31 PM

Nah. Barry's just decorating his Christmas tree.

barryrob

November 30th 2007, 12:26 PM

barryrob

November 30th 2007, 03:19 PM

barry, what language is English based on?

Latin
French
Greek
German
Galic
Saxon
Nordic
to name but a few

barryrob

November 30th 2007, 03:23 PM

I want a copy of the Declaration of Facts for Christmas.

Try this:-

As The Romans Did [A Sourcebook In Roman Social History] by Jo-Ann Shelton p.384
"[footnote] 172 Saturnalia was one of the most popular of the whole year. Its place was conveniently taken in the Christian calendar by Christmas, but many of the festivities which surrounded the celebration of Saturn were absorbed into the celebration of Christ's birth. The Christians wisely* absorbed what they could not eradicate."

*So the think!

barryrob

November 30th 2007, 03:33 PM

None of us have forgotten that barry.

You, on the other hand, have forgotten to respond to certain points that have been raised.

Since the WTBTS didn't stop celebrating Christmas until well after Charles Russell died, that means he died apostate. By your own standards. The founder of your religion worshipped idols. Since man cannot serve two masters, that means he was not worshipping Jehovah, however well-intentioned he may have been.

So I'll ask the questions again (not that I really expect an honest answer):

When will the WTBTS repudiate Russell and all his teachings?
SOME HAVE BEEN, you must be out of touch!

When will the WTBTS remove the pagan symbols at his gravesite?
GRAVE DESECRATION IS NOT FOR CHRISTIANS, even if it is OK for you. Send a letter to his family it is there family grave not the WTBTS.

When will the WTBTS hold it's founders and itself to the same standards it holds everyone else?
'EVERYONE' - THIER ARE TO LOW, WE STICK WITH THE HIGH STANDARDS OF THE BIBLE

I'm guessing the answer is "Never".
WRONG AGAIN, you seem to have a habit of being so!!

barryrob

November 30th 2007, 03:36 PM

Some unknown dood posts a bunch of smack on his website and that automatically makes it true? I suppose if I find some website that talks about how corrupt and phony the WBTS is, then it must be true, right?

Try this, credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Something written by a person who lived at or near the time in question, a participant in or direct eyewitness to the events. Anything written in a book or posted on the internet is absolutley worthless unless it quotes first hand sources. And my firiend you do not have any such thing and you will neer have any such thing.

Find your own, I did because there is so much of it to be found, that is if you look

Sparko

November 30th 2007, 03:37 PM

Try this:-

As The Romans Did [A Sourcebook In Roman Social History] by Jo-Ann Shelton p.384

"[footnote] 172 Saturnalia was one of the most popular of the whole year. Its place was conveniently taken in the Christian calendar by Christmas, but many of the festivities which surrounded the celebration of Saturn were absorbed into the celebration of Christ's birth. The Christians wisely* absorbed what they could not eradicate."

*So the think!

so if christians celebrate using the same "festivities" as pagan then that makes them pagan? If Pagans eat cake, does that mean Christians can't eat cake? If Pagans take a bath, then that means Christians can't take a bath? If Pagans worship their God by going into a building every weekend, then Christians can't do that either?

Pagans have been around a lot longer than Christians, barry. By that reasoning there is not much we can do without failing your little test.

I bet pagans even wrote things down and used the writings as sacred texts before Christians did. That means the bible is pagan!!!!

barryrob

November 30th 2007, 04:01 PM

so if christians celebrate using the same "festivities" as pagan then that makes them pagan? If Pagans eat cake, does that mean Christians can't eat cake? If Pagans take a bath, then that means Christians can't take a bath? If Pagans worship their God by going into a building every weekend, then Christians can't do that either?

Pagans have been around a lot longer than Christians, barry. By that reasoning there is not much we can do without failing your little test.

I bet pagans even wrote things down and used the writings as sacred texts before Christians did. That means the bible is pagan!!!!

We are talking about THINGS THAT ARE ACTS OF WORSHIP OR DEVOTION AND OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE, suerly you understand that?

The World's Religions. [A Lion Handbook]
p.89*, p.370**
*"But at least one Mithraic practice survived-25 December is celebrated in various cultures as the birth-day of a new sun. Mithraists used the date to celebrate the birth of Mithras, and Christians took it over for the celebration of Jesus' birth.
**"The Peace of Constantine in AD 313 gave a new boost to church building. and the assimilation of Church and state which followed not only encouraged the use of pagan festivals for Christian Commemorations (as happened with Christmas)."

1 Corinthians 10:20-22
No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons. 21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah [or LORD] and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of "the table of Jehovah"[or LORD]and the table of demons. 22 Or "are we inciting Jehovah [or LORD] to jealousy"? We are not stronger than he is, are we?

If one acts in the same way as the, and with the same religious devotional items and practices of the pagans this make one a pagan or are the scriptures wrong?

Sparko

November 30th 2007, 04:16 PM

We are talking about THINGS THAT ARE ACTS OF WORSHIP OR DEVOTION AND OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE, suerly you understand that?

The World's Religions. [A Lion Handbook]
p.89*, p.370**

*"But at least one Mithraic practice survived-25 December is celebrated in various cultures as the birth-day of a new sun. Mithraists used the date to celebrate the birth of Mithras, and Christians took it over for the celebration of Jesus' birth.
**"The Peace of Constantine in AD 313 gave a new boost to church building. and the assimilation of Church and state which followed not only encouraged the use of pagan festivals for Christian Commemorations (as happened with Christmas)."

1 Corinthians 10:20-22
No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons. 21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah [or LORD] and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of "the table of Jehovah"[or LORD]and the table of demons. 22 Or "are we inciting Jehovah [or LORD] to jealousy"? We are not stronger than he is, are we?

If one acts in the same way as the, and with the same religious devotional items and practices of the pagans this make one a pagan or are the scriptures wrong?

and yet you have no problem with the founder of your religion, Charles Russell, being someone who celebrated Christimas, along with all the pagan festivities, and is even buried under a pagan symbol, a pyramid, covered with pagan crosses.

If your cult was started by a demon worshipping pagan, then how can you claim that your religion is right and mine is wrong?

How did something straight come from something crooked, Barry?

Everything you accuse us of, the watchtower and Russell did also and NEVER REPENTED.

In fact I have a photo of 4 watchtower presidents celebrating Christmas!
48559

and here is where your pagan founder is now.
48555

gee what does it say on that plaque??

48554

Shadow Phoenix

November 30th 2007, 08:19 PM

Sorry Barry. Christians pray. So do pagans. Christians give to the poor. So do Muslims. Christians meditate. So do Hindus.

The point is not what people do but why they do it.

Sparko

November 30th 2007, 08:39 PM

Sorry Barry. Christians pray. So do pagans. Christians give to the poor. So do Muslims. Christians meditate. So do Hindus.

The point is not what people do but why they do it.

you are using pagan letters to type with!! demon worshiper!!!

oh wait. so am I.

...never mind.

Shadow Phoenix

November 30th 2007, 08:43 PM

Actually, the word magazine comes from an Arabic word meaning storehouse. It's from the Muslims then.

I'm sure the Watchtower magazine will be stopped now....

Sparko

November 30th 2007, 08:53 PM

Actually, the word magazine comes from an Arabic word meaning storehouse. It's from the Muslims then.

I'm sure the Watchtower magazine will be stopped now....

neat. I looked it up on the online etymology dictionary and you are right.

I decided to look up Jehovah...

Jehovah (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Jehovah) 1530, Tyndale's erroneous transliteration of Heb. Tetragramaton YHWH, using vowel points of Adhonai "my lord" (see Yahweh (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Yahweh)). Used for YHWH (the full name being too sacred for utterance) in four places in the Old Testament in the K.J.V. where the usual translation lord would have been inconvenient; taken as the principal and personal name of God. The vowel substitution was originally made by the Masoretes as a direction to substitute Adhonai for "the ineffable name." European students of Heb. took this literally, which yielded L. JeHoVa (first attested in writings of Galatinus, 1516). Jehovah's Witnesses "member of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" first attested 1933; the organization founded c.1879 by Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916); the name from Isa. xliii:10.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jehovah&searchmode=none

barryrob

December 2nd 2007, 03:11 PM

you are using pagan letters to type with!! demon worshiper!!!

oh wait. so am I.

...never mind.

back to drivel

Sparko

December 2nd 2007, 06:58 PM

back to drivel

the only drivel in here is coming from you barry. You keep making accusations that also apply to the founders of your cult, and you see no hypocrisy in it.

You make stupid statements and when we point out the stupidity of them, you accuse us of "drivel" or worse, you ignore us and just repeat yourself.

I hope you have a Merry Christmas Barry, despite your legalistic nonsense.

I know I will.

I really do feel sorry for all the little JW children who don't get any presents. Or do you kinda sneak them a present or two making sure it is not on Christmas?

barryrob

December 3rd 2007, 04:52 AM

the only drivel in here is coming from you barry. You keep making accusations that also apply to the founders of your cult, and you see no hypocrisy in it.

You make stupid statements and when we point out the stupidity of them, you accuse us of "drivel" or worse, you ignore us and just repeat yourself.

I hope you have a Merry Christmas Barry, despite your legalistic nonsense.

I know I will.

I really do feel sorry for all the little JW children who don't get any presents. Or do you kinda sneak them a present or two making sure it is not on Christmas?

True christians do not need a special days to give gifts

OldShepherd

December 3rd 2007, 09:17 AM

True christians do not need a special days to give gifts

That is correct true Christians do not "need" special days, but there is nothing in scripture which forbids us from designating a certain day to honor the birth of our savior. And we can forget all that phony hoohah about pagan deities being born on December 25. There is NO, NONE, NADA, evidence that any pagan deity was born on this day or any other specific day. Please do not insult our intelligence by copy/pasting something from atheists-я-us.com®

Sparko

December 3rd 2007, 10:37 AM

True christians do not need a special days to give gifts

so you give gifts on any day BUT Christmas? oh, and birthdays?

LOL.

True Christians don't let a cult hold them hostage with legalistic rules. They can even give gifts on Christmas.

Have you ever read Colossians 2?

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

[side note: Oh looky! another verse that says Jesus is fully God!]

...

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

So Paul is talking directly to YOU and the watchtower here, barry. Please read it and try to understand it.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival,

he even gets your cult spot on when he says:

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize

because, doesnt the watchtower claim that Jesus is the archangel Michael? that means you worship angels (in your own mind anyway) and you sure do have false humility because you come in here trying to act humble but in reality you feel superior because you think you have the "truth" and we are just pagan demon worhipers.

Shadow Phoenix

December 4th 2007, 12:34 AM

True christians do not need a special days to give gifts

True Christians do not need an organization in Brooklyn to "restore" Christianity that God apparently lost somewhere in time.

True Christians do not need such an organization to tell us what Scripture means either or to do our thinking for us.

Sparko

December 4th 2007, 12:36 AM

MrManNo1

December 4th 2007, 04:48 PM

True Christians do not need an organization in Brooklyn to "restore" Christianity that God apparently lost somewhere in time.

True Christians do not need such an organization to tell us what Scripture means either or to do our thinking for us.

True Christians also realize that everything was created by, and for, God, so to take pagan symbols and make them into Christian symbols is a good thing, not a heresy.

Shadow Phoenix

December 8th 2007, 08:15 PM

Barry must be putting Christmas lights on his front lawn.

barryrob

December 10th 2007, 01:59 PM

True Christians also realize that everything was created by, and for, God, so to take pagan symbols and make them into Christian symbols is a good thing, not a heresy.

God does not agree with you:-

EX. 20:4-5
“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/) You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me;

MrManNo1

December 10th 2007, 02:02 PM

barryrob

December 10th 2007, 02:03 PM

True Christians do not need an organization in Brooklyn to "restore" Christianity that God apparently lost somewhere in time.

True Christians do not need such an organization to tell us what Scripture means either or to do our thinking for us.

The Christian congregation(s) in the NT was an organization separate or collective!

Shadow Phoenix

December 10th 2007, 02:16 PM

The Christian congregation(s) in the NT was an organization separate or collective!

Not sure what this has to do with what you said....

Hey Barry, as to the second commandment, why did God command the Israelites to make images of Cherubim in the temple? Aren't those things in Heaven? Why were there images of palm trees? Aren't those things on Earth?

Sparko

December 10th 2007, 02:54 PM

I think someone dropped barry on his head a lot when he was a baby.

OldShepherd

December 11th 2007, 06:13 AM

I think someone dropped barry on his head a lot when he was a baby.

Entirely apropo of nothing I think this calls for a moment of silence. I read last night at Greg Stafford's website that he has separated himself from the JW and has formed his own religion called Christian Witnesses of Jah.

Anyone not familiar with him, for a few years, he has been one of their main "scholars" bombarding the world with books, articles etc. trying to prove that the JW religion is true and any other church/denomination is false.

OldShepherd

December 11th 2007, 06:23 AM

God does not agree with you:-

EX. 20:4-5
“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/) You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me;

Several things wrong with this knee jerk out-of-context scripture.
NOTHING under discussion here is "a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth."
.
Christians do NOT "bow down to them nor be induced to serve them."

Shadow Phoenix

December 11th 2007, 09:26 AM

Sparko

December 11th 2007, 03:45 PM

Entirely apropo of nothing I think this calls for a moment of silence. I read last night at Greg Stafford's website that he has separated himself from the JW and has formed his own religion called Christian Witnesses of Jah.

Anyone not familiar with him, for a few years, he has been one of their main "scholars" bombarding the world with books, articles etc. trying to prove that the JW religion is true and any other church/denomination is false.

did he turned into a sacred name freak?

gee I wonder if the watchtower will try to get all his books pulled?

===
I found the info on his website: http://www.elihubooks.com/greg-stafford/Christian_Witnesses_of_Jah%20.htm

strange thing is, he is still selling his JW books on that site. I guess he needs the cash.

barryrob

December 16th 2007, 11:31 AM

Intresting, but if it is humans that make it Christian does God agree them?
Barryrob

God say what humans do or do not do in religious devotion, acts, not the other way about!

barryrob

December 16th 2007, 11:37 AM

True Christians also realize that everything was created by, and for, God, so to take pagan symbols and make them into Christian symbols is a good thing, not a heresy.

You are at odds with God:-

Deuteronomy 4:16-19
YOU may not act ruinously and may not really make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, 17 the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, 18 the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; 19 and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, . . .

Christmas is full of stars (tree lights topped with the Satr of Ishtar), sun symbols & fire symbols, all very much pagan and hated by the God of the Bible.

barryrob

December 16th 2007, 11:42 AM

That is correct true Christians do not "need" special days, but there is nothing in scripture which forbids us from designating a certain day to honor the birth of our savior. And we can forget all that phony hoohah about pagan deities being born on December 25. There is NO, NONE, NADA, evidence that any pagan deity was born on this day or any other specific day. Please do not insult our intelligence by copy/pasting something from atheists-я-us.com®

The Year of the Goddess by Lawrence Durdin-Robertson p.198

"25 December Isis
The Goddess Isis, the Virgo Caelestis, was believed to give birth to the Sun on the 25th of December. (Eisler, The Royal Art of Astrology.)
Astarte
Long before the Christian era a festival was celebrated in honour of the birth of the son of the Babylonian Queen of Heaven. The same festival was adopted by the Roman Church. (Hislop, The Two Bablyons, p.93.)"

barryrob

barryrob

December 16th 2007, 11:46 AM

True Christians don't let a cult hold them hostage with legalistic rules. They can even give gifts on Christmas.

Then you are a hostage to the cult of Catholicism as the made up the Christmas date.

Sparko

December 16th 2007, 01:03 PM

Intresting, but if it is humans that make it Christian does God agree them?
Barryrob

God say what humans do or do not do in religious devotion, acts, not the other way about!

now you are arguing with yourself?????

you are nuts.

barryrob

December 16th 2007, 01:16 PM

you are nuts.

Intersting, they said the same of Jesus Christ

MrManNo1

December 16th 2007, 01:28 PM

Intersting, they said the same of Jesus Christ

Unfortunately for you, when Jesus as called "nuts", he actually substantiated why He wasn't nuts.

Sparko

December 16th 2007, 01:32 PM

Intersting, they said the same of Jesus Christ

feed 5000 people with two fish or raise yourself from the dead and then come back and try to equate yourself with Jesus. Until then you are just a kook.

OldShepherd

December 16th 2007, 10:25 PM

The Year of the Goddess by Lawrence Durdin-Robertson p.198

"25 December Isis
The Goddess Isis, the Virgo Caelestis, was believed to give birth to the Sun on the 25th of December. (Eisler, The Royal Art of Astrology.)
Astarte
Long before the Christian era a festival was celebrated in honour of the birth of the son of the Babylonian Queen of Heaven. The same festival was adopted by the Roman Church. (Hislop, The Two Bablyons, p.93.)"

You don't get it do you barry? All you can do is quote garbage written in the 19th and 20th centuries. And Hislop has been debunked many, many times. He was an Anglican bishop that wrote the ultimate anti-RCC diatribe.

There is NO, NONE, ZERO credible, verifiable historical evidence of any of this.

Shadow Phoenix

December 17th 2007, 12:41 AM

I still await Barry answering me. Will he be done wrapping Christmas gifts soon?

barryrob

December 17th 2007, 12:15 PM

I still await Barry answering me. Will he be done wrapping Christmas gifts soon?

LOL

barryrob

December 17th 2007, 12:17 PM

There is NO, NONE, ZERO credible, verifiable historical evidence of any of this.

Of corse that is not if you wish not to believe it.

But that does not change the facts!

barryrob

December 17th 2007, 12:18 PM

feed 5000 people with two fish or raise yourself from the dead and then come back and try to equate yourself with Jesus. Until then you are just a kook.

Intresting they said the same ti Paul

MrManNo1

December 17th 2007, 12:19 PM

Please learn to write complete sentences, with correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar, barry. It is exceedingly difficult to understand what point you are trying to make.

barryrob

December 17th 2007, 12:20 PM

Unfortunately for you, when Jesus as called "nuts", he actually substantiated why He wasn't nuts.

By using God's word the Bible like I/we do,but then again, they did not liston to him either

Bill the Cat

December 17th 2007, 12:22 PM

By using God's word the Bible like I/we do,but then again, they did not liston to him either

THe JWs use scripture more like Satan did than Jesus did. That's a more appropriate comparison.

Sparko

December 17th 2007, 12:32 PM

Intresting they said the same ti Paul

first you equate yourself with Jesus and now Paul?

Come back after you have been stoned, and blinded, and thrown in prison from preaching the gospel, barry.

you are no Jesus, and you are no Paul. You are an Elymas.

Bill the Cat

December 17th 2007, 12:51 PM

first you equate yourself with Jesus and now Paul?

Come back after you have been stoned, and blinded, and thrown in prison from preaching the gospel, barry.

you are no Jesus, and you are no Paul. You are an Elymas.

Are you even sure that guy is mentioned in the NWT? :lol:

Sparko

December 17th 2007, 12:55 PM

Are you even sure that guy is mentioned in the NWT? :lol:

yeah he is in there. I am just wondering if barry can figure out who he is?

barryrob

December 17th 2007, 01:29 PM

first you equate yourself with Jesus and now Paul?

Come back after you have been stoned, and blinded, and thrown in prison from preaching the gospel, barry.

you are no Jesus, and you are no Paul. You are an Elymas.

I equate you to they who also oppose christian teachings which they taught as you do not follow the Bible

Sparko

December 17th 2007, 02:41 PM

I equate you to they who also oppose christian teachings which they taught as you do not follow the Bible

that made no sense at all, Elymas.

Sparko

December 18th 2007, 01:21 AM

I want to give barry a christmas present from the watchtower! I dug through my database of old watchtower magazines from the first 20 years of the last century (copyright has expired) and this is what I found....[the bolding and underlining is mine so barry won't miss it]

Merry Pagan Christmas from the watchtower!!!

===
December 1915

It matters not that December 25th is not the real anniversary of the Savior's birth, but probably the anniversary of the annunciation by the angel Gabriel, the anniversary of the Virgin Mary's conception, our Lord being born nine months later on the calendar, or about October 1. One so great, whose birth, death and resurrection from the dead mean so much to the human family, may be remembered and celebrated any day, every day, by all who appreciate what He has done for our race. Since, then, the majority of Christian people have become habituated to the celebration of December 25th as our Lord's birthday, we need make no protest, but join with all in celebrating that day with rejoicing of heart, giving gifts and remembrances one to another, thus copying Divine favor, which gave to mankind the Son of God as a gift of mercy and love for our redemption.

==
November 1916

HOLIDAY REMEMBRANCERS

A LIST of our stock, suitable for Holiday Gifts, we are publishing a little earlier than usual this year. This will give those living at a distance ample time to forward their orders to us and have them filled in good season-- before the rush and congestion of the mails during the weeks immediately preceding Christmas. This will be a convenience to us as well. Those living near by would also do well to send their orders early.

As New Creatures in Christ Jesus our Gifts should in some sense always represent ourselves, and we believe the list below will be found to meet this requirement in a large degree. The prices are low--covering merely cost.
...

"Studies," Volume I., with Pyramid Chapter added. This special edition is very suitable for presentation to uninterested friends. Many have had their interest awakened by the reading of the Pyramid Chapter. A picture of the Great Pyramid is stamped in gilt on front cover. We recommend this Volume for gift purposes. Postpaid 50c. (2s 1d), but, to stimulate its wide circulation, ten copies for $2.50 (10s 10d).

=========
December 1916

BROTHER RUSSELL'S CHRISTMASTIDE GREETINGS

Shortly before his death Brother Russell gave instructions for the publication of a beautiful little card conveying his Christian greetings and best wishes to the New Creation, together with references to five recent WATCH TOWER articles which he considered particularly timely and helpful, also announcing the Year Text for 1917, over his signature. On the other side of this card is a rotogravure reproduction of the famous painting, "Christ Stilling the Storm on the Sea," as selected by our Pastor. According to his request, these cards are now being enclosed in all regular mail sent out from this office in acknowledgment of orders, etc. By this means practically all of our interested readers will receive one. Any who fail to receive a copy, may have one upon request.

============
June 1921

It will not be irreverential if we draw a comparison from human life. Who has not seen a wearied and perhaps weeping child fall asleep on Christmas Eve, howbeit hoping for the blessings of the morrow ? Thefirst thing it knows in the morning is the parent’s call and caresses, and armloads of presents to make it glad. So Jesus, Jehovah’s wearied and most-loved child, sorrowed to sleep on Calvary. With what tenderness the Father must have watched through the night of his Son’s death, waiting for the morning and conning over the coming happiness of his child.

Isn't that nice? They even compared a child getting Christmas presents to the Father waiting to receive his Son at the crucifixion. :demure: