Is preaching the law, hell and damnation to the unrepentant sound, Biblical doctrine? [Archive]

Steven

April 26th 2003, 10:03 PM

Well, John, now before you take your toys and go home, (tongue in cheek) let me spell out the point to the best of my feeble abilities:

Let's say I am Joe Preacher, you know that guy out there with a lazy eye and a fifty-yard stare, standing on some chair in a metropolitan area, preaching the Gospel of CHrist. I talk about hell, and the reality of such a place for those who would reject Christ. I even throw in a little of Moses' law, you know, thou shalt not have any gods before me, thou shalt not covet, lie, commit adultery.... etc. Would you, from the perspective of one who can read greek and hebrew, (which I respect; probably would come in handy next time I run into the watchtower minions and they insisit that they have greek scholars...), would you consider this effective?

The point!

:yipee:

Steven

April 26th 2003, 10:14 PM

pardon this, but i just hAD to see a bunch of dancing bananas.

:rockon:

:yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

joelkaki

April 27th 2003, 03:45 PM

Why would there be something wrong with it? How could you possibly cut out that part of the gospel message? People must be confronted with that. Paul certainly minced no words about the truth of God's curse with the false teachers. (Gal 1:6-10)

Joel

Steven

April 27th 2003, 04:33 PM

Joel,

I agree. If one does not preach about sin and the consequences thereof, then one turns the grace of our Lord Jesus into laciviousness and blasphemes the work of the cross.

The law itself shows us our wretched and defiled hearts before Christ and thus is a schoolmaster to drive us towards the grace of Christ, repentance and forgiveness of sins.

" But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Gal 3:23-24

It is God's very kindness that leads us to repentance.

Through the greatest demonstration of love, the cross, the forgivness of sins came to all those who would confess and repent and turn from thier vile conditions.

Joel, to answer your question from my perspective of who teaches otherwise, it generally is the seeker-sensitive churches in which have brought the lost in amoung the flock in an attempt to evangelize them and lead them to Christ; whom have had to change the gospel as not to offend those who signed the card saying that they are now a believer, or made some sort of verbal confession, but lack the substance of repentance and obedience which is the result of the conviciton of the Holy Spirit. Thus, this nullifies their so-called confession of faith.

This actually seems to be pretty commonplace in today's Christianity. The New Testament church never made a practise to bring the lost in, but went out to the lost, warning of coming judgement, hell and eternal damnation through the power of law of God.

Lord willing, the next time we see Joe Preacher out on the street we should shake his hand and thank him for being obedient to Christ, by the preaching the true Gospel, and then commit ourselves to praying for him.

- Steven

joelkaki

April 28th 2003, 12:00 AM

Hey, Steven, maybe we agree on more things than we realize. I find that same problem in churches today. Although I don't think "bringing in the lost" per se is what is wrong. I think trying to cater yourself to the lost so you look good to them is bad, for it commonly compromises the gospel message.

Joel

Steven

May 6th 2003, 04:36 PM

in regards to bringing in the lost:

" Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" 1 corinthians 5:6

" Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." 1 corinth. 15:33&34

" Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision." Phil. 3:1-2

"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." 2 Peter 3:17

- Steven

mickiel

May 12th 2003, 03:51 PM

That fire and brimstone message is a personal desire of distorted christian deception, it is an illousion. The message of the gospel is Christ and his salvation of life. When the gospel is reduced to fire and brimstone, it is because physical men think threats and intimidation are a method of God to scare the hell out of mankind.

Steven

May 12th 2003, 09:27 PM

mickiel,

I would expect a heretical reply like that from you, one built upon your own flesh and human understanding, instead of the Scriptures. But the Scriptures has somethign to say to people like you:

"Is not my word like fire? saith Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" Jeremiah 23:29

"And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times." Psalms 12:6

there are some who; "holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away."
2 tim. 3:5

‘Do not go beyond what is written.’ Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." 1 Corinthians 4:6

"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar " Proverbs 30:5-6

"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people." Romans 16:17&18

"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother." 2 Thess. 3:14&15

"2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up." 2 Peter 2:2-3a

Titus 1:16 "They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

8. "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' " Mathew 15:8&9

Eph. 5:6&7 "Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience. 7. Be not ye therefore partakers with them;"

Colossians 2:8 "Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:"

Sincerely,

- Steven

mickiel

May 13th 2003, 06:29 PM

[QUOTE]Today @ 02:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94828#post94828)
Steven:

mickiel,

I would expect a heretical reply like that from you, one built upon your own flesh and human understanding, instead of the Scriptures. But the Scriptures has somethign to say to people like you:

Now allow me to explain what i see in you. I have seen your spirit many times before, the spirit is steeped in traditional ways. I see the Spirit of Jeremiah 16:19, the fathers of tradition, or mens views of God passed down through the generations. These men inherited nothing but lies, futility, and things of no profit. Their children held those lies as if they were truth, and unknowingly spread them. It spread into the translators of the bible, it spread into all leaders of churches. This is the method satan has used to infilltrate the mind of man. He has used the churches to spread lies about God and his plan of salvation, Gods view of the family. I see this spirit, and i see it everywhere. But Steven, there is something else i see, i see who is responsible for this happening. God is the one who planned this deception, thats why i know none are doomed. God is just and fair, he would not purposely infect mankind, then turn around and damn them to hell for failing to cure themselves.

Jason Clark

May 30th 2003, 05:19 PM

Ah yes, the error of universalism combined with the deception that God can effectively lie. Jehovah is not Allah, He cannot lie. If we are deceived it is because we deceive ourselves.

The law of God is perfect convicting the soul. Says the scripture and we should not be afraid to bring up God's perfect standard for comparison with the norm that humans expect.

It is true that the apostles did not have to resort to it often when speaking to other Jews but that was simply because the Jews know the law. They only need the grace of Jesus to be offered once that sensitive conscience is pricked.

The westerner on the other hand goes through life convinced of his own righteousness and in this I am a leading offender. He is convinced that he is "a good bloke" and that God couldn't possibly banish him to hell. People like me need the law before their eyes at all times to keep them on the straight and narrow.

The unrepentant need it for the purpose of showing them their lack of any saving virtue before God. Then we can say before God, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" and throw ourselves on his mercy.

Jacob

May 30th 2003, 05:49 PM

05-12-2003 @ 08:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94566#post94566)
mickiel:

That fire and brimstone message is a personal desire of distorted christian deception, it is an illousion. The message of the gospel is Christ and his salvation of life. When the gospel is reduced to fire and brimstone, it is because physical men think threats and intimidation are a method of God to scare the hell out of mankind.

Who was it that taught us about ghenna?

How may one who thinks they are good recognize the need to trust Christ's death for atonement of their sins?

Who created the lake of fire?

Jacob

mickiel

May 30th 2003, 11:29 PM

Yesterday @ 10:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113100#post113100)
Jacob:

Who was it that taught us about ghenna?

the god of this earth.

How may one who thinks they are good recognize the need to trust Christ's death for atonement of their sins?

whoever thinks they are good, does not see Christ death

Who created the lake of fire?
The same being who puts it out, you just don't want it to be put out.

Jacob

Bib Lit Major

May 31st 2003, 01:55 AM

Yesterday @ 10:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113361#post113361)
mickiel:

the god of this earth.

So Jesus is the god of this earth (aka, the being mentioned in 2 Cor 4:4)? :huh: Is this a perjorative statement, or are you agreeing that God (aka, Jesus) preached about Gehenna (regardless of any view as to how long it lasts)?

mickiel

May 31st 2003, 10:10 AM

Today @ 06:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113438#post113438)
Bib Lit Major:

So Jesus is the god of this earth (aka, the being mentioned in 2 Cor 4:4)? :huh: Is this a perjorative statement, or are you agreeing that God (aka, Jesus) preached about Gehenna (regardless of any view as to how long it lasts)?

I am agreeing that Jesus mentioned the grave in his teachings, but satan uses the grave in his teachings, and i do not favor christians who use the grave in their teachings, as if it were a doctrine leading to salvation. A scare tatic at best, totally useless in the influence toward men. The grave meant nothing to Christ, and it means nothing to me, but to satan, it is a trump card in the foolishness of preaching.

Bib Lit Major

May 31st 2003, 04:16 PM

Today @ 09:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113584#post113584)
mickiel:

I am agreeing that Jesus mentioned the grave in his teachings, but satan uses the grave in his teachings, and i do not favor christians who use the grave in their teachings, as if it were a doctrine leading to salvation. A scare tatic at best, totally useless in the influence toward men. The grave meant nothing to Christ, and it means nothing to me, but to satan, it is a trump card in the foolishness of preaching.

Actually, Gehenna was a literally a trash dump (if I understand it right)...so I doubt Jesus was using it to figuratively refer to the grave...

bar Jonah

May 31st 2003, 04:41 PM

Steven, as a part-time street preacher and apologetics instructor, myself, I would partly agree with your initial point. The "good news" is meaningless to someone who has not heard the "bad news." In fact, I wrote an article on this exact topic, featured here at TheologyWeb, which you can find here:

Preaching the Bad News (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3012)

However, preaching the "bad news" doesn't necessarily mean shouting down at people on a street corner (or from a pulpit, for that matter), preaching "fire and brimstone" in the old-fashioned, traditional sense. To be honest, that may have been effective 100 years ago when society was far more conformist, but I believe it is not only ineffective today but often not intellectually honest, either.

The question in every Christian's mind (as we are ALL called to preach His word) should be -- what is the most effective and edifying way to deliver His gospel to the world? You are right to judge "seeker-oriented" churches for compromising the gospel and God's word in the attempt to "put butts in seats." In fact, the GODISNOWHERE ministry considers postmoderism and these kinds of "new technology" or "seeker oriented" churches to be the single greatest threat to Christianity in the world today.

But a purely harsh and rebuking tone aren't usually going to be edifying or effective either. There are other ways of sharing one's faith and evangelizing to the world around you, whether on the street corner (as my ministry frequently does), on the Internet, from the pulpit or in everyday life.

Steven

May 31st 2003, 11:09 PM

RightIdea,

However, preaching the "bad news" doesn't necessarily mean shouting down at people on a street corner (or from a pulpit, for that matter), preaching "fire and brimstone" in the old-fashioned, traditional sense. To be honest, that may have been effective 100 years ago when society was far more conformist, but I believe it is not only ineffective today but often not intellectually honest, either.

Can you please tell me what you meant by these phrases, and how they biblically apply to preaching the Gospel?:

1. 'fire and brimstone'

2. 'intellectually honest'

3. 'shouting down'

And... What part, of what I actually said, did you dis-agree with, Bibilically? (chapter and verse please)

- Steven
:read:

mickiel

May 31st 2003, 11:10 PM

Yesterday @ 09:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113805#post113805)
Bib Lit Major:

Actually, Gehenna was a literally a trash dump (if I understand it right)...so I doubt Jesus was using it to figuratively refer to the grave...

I understand. Holding back my discuss of the distortion of the gospel message, i often wonder at the attraction of christians to associate the gospel of life, with death or a trash dump. Jesus is life, real life at its abudance, multiplied by more life. I am so curious, why are you attracted to his words of the grave? Jesus is the Lord of the grave, of death, of the fire. He is salvation within itself, nothing can stop him from saving us. Why cannot this be your view of the gospel to mankind? The first thing he did when he died, was to save all those in the grave , why do you think he has stopped this effort?

Bib Lit Major

June 1st 2003, 03:58 AM

Yesterday @ 10:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114092#post114092)
mickiel:

I understand. Holding back my discuss of the distortion of the gospel message, i often wonder at the attraction of christians to associate the gospel of life, with death or a trash dump. Jesus is life, real life at its abudance, multiplied by more life. I am so curious, why are you attracted to his words of the grave? Jesus is the Lord of the grave, of death, of the fire. He is salvation within itself, nothing can stop him from saving us. Why cannot this be your view of the gospel to mankind? The first thing he did when he died, was to save all those in the grave , why do you think he has stopped this effort?

So you're saying the NT is distorted? Jesus himself, according to the Gospels associated this Gospel of Life with a warning for rejecting it (unless of course you believe that part of the NT was distorted). I merely pointed out that your interpretation of Gehenna as the "grave" is incorrect. It is a trash dump, which is not a favorable picture of the dead there. It would be a disgrace to be put there. If it were really refering to the "grave" and not a place associated with evil, why would James say that:

The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell [geenna, Gehenna].
(James 3:6, NIV)

If this is referring to the grave, then how does the grave have fire, and why is the grave evil?

The reason why I post these questions to you is because:

If Hell is real, then I need to be concerning myself and warning people about it.
I am concerned very much about proper interpretation of the biblical text, and I have a feeling that your doctrine, which uses Scripture to support itself, is not based on good exegesis of the clear meaning of the text.

mickiel

June 1st 2003, 11:16 AM

Today @ 08:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114288#post114288)
Bib Lit Major:

So you're saying the NT is distorted? Jesus himself, according to the Gospels associated this Gospel of Life with a warning for rejecting it (unless of course you believe that part of the NT was distorted). I merely pointed out that your interpretation of Gehenna as the "grave" is incorrect. It is a trash dump, which is not a favorable picture of the dead there. It would be a disgrace to be put there. If it were really refering to the "grave" and not a place associated with evil, why would James say that:

The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell [geenna, Gehenna].
(James 3:6, NIV)

If this is referring to the grave, then how does the grave have fire, and why is the grave evil?

The reason why I post these questions to you is because:

If Hell is real, then I need to be concerning myself and warning people about it.
I am concerned very much about proper interpretation of the biblical text, and I have a feeling that your doctrine, which uses Scripture to support itself, is not based on good exegesis of the clear meaning of the text.

Gehenna is the grave, or symbolic of death. The trash dump is also symbolic of he same, as is tarrotos or any other hebrew or greek meaning, they all mean death. I do not dissagree with your definitions, i just go beyound them. Death is fire, it is evil, Jesus has overcome these things. Your warning people is not needed, there is nothing you can do to assist Christ, he just does not need your help in saving mankind. Your help is not sufficent.

Bib Lit Major

June 1st 2003, 03:51 PM

Today @ 10:16 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114403#post114403)
mickiel:

Gehenna is the grave, or symbolic of death. The trash dump is also symbolic of he same, as is tarrotos or any other hebrew or greek meaning, they all mean death. I do not dissagree with your definitions, i just go beyound them. Death is fire, it is evil, Jesus has overcome these things. Your warning people is not needed, there is nothing you can do to assist Christ, he just does not need your help in saving mankind. Your help is not sufficent.

It is better that you lose a limb than be thrown into the grave? How does that make sense, since we will probably all die at least once? Better to pluck out your eye than die? Better to cut off your hand or foot than die? The idea that the grave is in view here strains the meaning of the text in the verses I am here alluding to to the point of making them incomprehensible.

mickiel

June 2nd 2003, 10:51 AM

Yesterday @ 08:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114487#post114487)
Bib Lit Major:

It is better that you lose a limb than be thrown into the grave? How does that make sense, since we will probably all die at least once? Better to pluck out your eye than die? Better to cut off your hand or foot than die? The idea that the grave is in view here strains the meaning of the text in the verses I am here alluding to to the point of making them incomprehensible.

I agree, you are correct. Each individual verse will bring on differing meaning or symbols, but in the final analysis the common meaning is death. All graves are graves, because of death. The feild of fire was a dump of death. The lake of fire , or the second death, is the death of the first death.

preacherstovall

June 2nd 2003, 11:52 AM

:argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh:

John Reece

June 2nd 2003, 08:21 PM

Yesterday @ 04:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115028#post115028)
preacherstovall:

biblical exegesis:

:argh:

Does that mean you are for it or against it? :smile:

quetzalphoenix

June 2nd 2003, 11:45 PM

This question gets batted around a good bit by some people I know, and I generally think it's unfair...

Yes, we should preach the entire gospel. That involves what we are saved from. But as I read through Acts, I see Paul and Peter adapting to the culture they are in so that those people are able to understand their terms. There is no one manner in which the gospel is presented. The thrust of the gospel, however, is God's work in Christ--which would inevitably, as one continues preaching through God's plan, touch upon the law, hell, and damnation.

I guess I also wonder how we characterize the "unrepentant" -- are we defining them as those who will be condemned, or as those who have not yet turned to Christ? I wouldn't want to hold out hell as the only alternative for someone, but I would want to make it clear that it is the path they are upon.

In today's culture, I wonder if we need to ground our preaching about the law simultaneously in God's revelation and in creation. Otherwise, "law" connotes arbitrary pragmatism. Similarly, "hell" connotes injustice, despite the fact that it is ultimately just and what human beings bring upon themselves.

And finally, the fact that Christ's death upon the cross is described as a "descent into hell" (at least, that's my take on the scriptural testimony and the Creed) should be part of our witness as well... look, this awful horror that we shrink from (because of our sin), the sinless one took upon himself willingly for us so that we would not have to.

THAT would be biblical preaching of the law, hell, and damnation.
:solly:

quetzalphoenix

June 2nd 2003, 11:49 PM

Yesterday @ 04:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114968#post114968)
mickiel:
I agree, you are correct. Each individual verse will bring on differing meaning or symbols, but in the final analysis the common meaning is death. All graves are graves, because of death. The feild of fire was a dump of death. The lake of fire , or the second death, is the death of the first death.

I would recommend Robert Peterson's books, "Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue" and "Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment." He discusses that and other arguments. He's absolutely NOT your typical "hellfire and brimstone" preacher--yet he feels compelled to speak for the doctrine based on scripture. His attitude is so full of grace that it gives me hope that we can hold to the doctrine of eternal punishment not out of spite, but out of obedience and trust that it is in accordance with God's character revealed in scripture.

Steven

June 3rd 2003, 12:02 AM

Is preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation, to the unrepentant, rejector of Christ sound, Biblical doctrine?

For example, should one preach eternal damnation to the adulterer, the fornicator, the idolator, the homosexual, the abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers and extortioners?

What good, Biblical explaination can you find to support or not support preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation to said people?

- Steven

Steven

June 3rd 2003, 12:10 AM

Please note that I am not looking for opinion. Hitler had an opinion too, as did Stalin and Marx. Prove or disprove from the Scriptures.

What good, Biblical explaination can you find to support or not support preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation to said people? (from original thread post)

- Steven, author of this thread

quetzalphoenix

June 3rd 2003, 11:36 PM

"Please note that I am not looking for opinion. Hitler had an opinion too, as did Stalin and Marx. Prove or disprove from the Scriptures.

What good, Biblical explaination can you find to support or not support preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation to said people? (from original thread post)"

Sigh. I must point you back to my post, if this was written in response to mine (and/or others). If you're looking for prooftexting, I'm sorry, but I don't do that. I was making general observations from general patterns in the scripture. :shrug:

If you want to pull out the scripture that is explicitly didactic about preaching, I can do so...

For example: Matthew 27:16-20 ("therefore go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you...") Yes, that would include (but not be restricted to) the doctrines of the law, hell, and damnation.

Acts 1:8 ("you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth") Yes, that witness to Christ's life would include (but not be restricted to) the doctrines of the law, hell, and damnation.

For examples of preaching in Acts, see Stephen's speech in chapter 7 (which strangely enough does not mention hell explicitly although preached to unrepentant Jews about to stone him); Peter in 10:34-43 (which mentions Jesus' death and resurrection, forgivenss of sins...but strangely no explicit mention of hell, the law, or damnation), or Paul in 17:16-32 (which, by golly, does not explicitly mention the law of God, or hell, or damnation...but focuses on Jesus' resurrection and his role as judge) ...

This was the point I was trying to make. The fact of justice and of retribution for evil and of the moral reality of the universe is not conveyed in the same manner everywhere in scripture. Because those things are rooted in an amazingly complex world, there are a multitude of ways to bear reliable witness (what preaching is now, through scripture...see the gospel passages above), to the true nature of God's order.

Biblical enough, I hope....of course there are more passages to be explored....

Steven

March 10th 2005, 09:38 PM

What good, Biblical explaination can you find to support or not support preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation to said people? (from original thread post)

deadlidtabc

March 30th 2005, 01:28 AM

What good, Biblical explaination can you find to support or not support preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation to said people? (from original thread post) i was going to answer this but its not worth it:argh: SEEKER SENSITIVE TIP TOE FEMININE CHRISTIANITY:whack:

Steven

April 1st 2005, 12:48 PM

Well said.

- Steven

http://www.informationgospel.com/

DanielsWall

June 4th 2005, 06:52 PM

Well, im a bit amuzed. Some are sayin you can go after the lost yelling fire and brimstone. Bring out some scriptures that pertain to the 10 commandments and the judgements for not keeping them.

The lost guys yells out. I BELIEVE!

What happens then. Do ya tell him not to worry about all those things ya quoted from the scriptures? Its ok to break Gods perfect 10 now, cause you believe.

Steven

June 4th 2005, 07:30 PM

"If Hell is real, then I need to be concerning myself and warning people about it.
I am concerned very much about proper interpretation of the biblical text, and I have a feeling that your doctrine, which uses Scripture to support itself, is not based on good exegesis of the clear meaning of the text"

Good point; couldn't have said it better.

Steven

http://www.informationgospel.net/sinners_in_the_hands_of_an_angry_god.htm

oldsage_nc

June 4th 2005, 07:30 PM

wfaber

June 4th 2005, 10:24 PM

Is preaching the law and hell and eternal damnation, to the unrepentant, rejector of Christ sound, Biblical doctrine?
A friend sent me a CD of a sermon by Ray Comfort of Living Waters entitled "True and False Conversions." There was another one, I think entitled "Hell's Best Kept Secret." He defined false conversions as those where people were never taught the concept of sin, which he defines as breaking the commandments. He stresses the following passage as the basis for his evangelism:

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Although I don't deny the existence of hell and eternal damnation, I wouldn't stress that as the motivation to accept the Lord. We're not out to sell fire insurance.

You can hear them online. I don't know, what is the policy here about promoting outside websites? Anyway, do a Google search and you can find it.

DanielsWall

June 5th 2005, 01:38 AM

Well? (start diggin a hole) Aint it the pits?

As to Psalm 19. The law AND the testimony

ISAIAH 8 [16] Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.[17] And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.[18] Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?[20] To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my diciples and wait on the Lord. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Didn’t Jesus say that he was the light of the world?

PSALM 78 [1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. [2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: [3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. [4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done. [5] For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: [6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: [7] That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:

Who opened his mouth in a parable? Yup, Jesus Christ. And this scripture says he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, that they might set their hope in God and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. Just went and read some scriptures about the “day of battle”. It’s the “day” I thought it was. Even Yogi Berra knows the fat lady sings on "that day"

PSALM 119 [32] I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.(2COR.6 v.11) [33] Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. [34] Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. [35] Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight. [36] Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. [37] Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way. [38] Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear. [39] Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good. [40] Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness. [41] Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

Here again we find it’s the law (commandments) and the testimony (of Jesus) and this leads to SALVATION.

REV.12 [16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SON.

DanielsWall

June 5th 2005, 02:04 AM

As for hell

There have been times in my life where i feel that i have been separated from God. I would have to say it was due to my actions which were quite the opposite of the written Word. Believe me when i say, i felt as though i was in hell. Its a terrible feeling. I can honestly say i never have walked totally in the Word. Partially, yes. And i begin each day to try and walk accordingly. But i do stumble each and every day. There will come a "falling away" at some point in time. Is it final? The evil one revealed? Boy, the Word is hard to figure at times. Cain or Able?

Steven

June 5th 2005, 03:23 AM

As for hell

I can honestly say i never have walked totally in the Word. Partially, yes. And i begin each day to try and walk accordingly. But i do stumble each and every day.

DanielsWall,

I have never walked completely in the Word either. We as believers have to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and it is through the Scriptures that our consciences are sharpened, our faith strengthened and our mind conformed, as well as fellowship with brethen and confessing our sins to one another, in keeping with the Scriptures. To my own master I stand or fall, and I will stand, for the Lord is able to make me stand. Whatever happens, I am the Lord's. This is ultimatly comforting for us whom are in Christ, knowing that the Lord is able to make us stand; the Lord's very kindness leads us to repentance.

Every Saturday night a group of brethren and I go down and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people milling around Old Sacramento, CA. It has become apparent how important is it to accurately present the Gospel from the Scriptures, that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. There is nothing better than telling someone about sin, the need for the Savior and the coming judgment and wrath of God, so that they might fear, for fear is the beginning of all wisdom, and on very rare occasion, watching them confess their sins to their Lord and savior, that they may be sanctified and treated as sons and heirs with Christ. What a great and high privledge it is to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Blessings,
Steven

http://www.informationgospel.net/we_actually_preach_the_gospel_pictures.htm