Islam's Glorious Koran, is it the basis for terrorism?

[Jude3b]

Some claim that Islam's Glorious Koran is the foundation of "a religion of peace?" Is that true? Does the Koran promote peace or does it promote terrorism, jihad and hatred? What verses from the Koran show your point of view?

[Dan Zebiri]

Some claim that Islam's Glorious Koran is the foundation of "a religion of peace?" Is that true? Does the Koran promote peace or does it promote terrorism, jihad and hatred? What verses from the Koran show your point of view? Jude, this is your answer :






"As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:4-6)
"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)
"The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)
"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)
The Qur’an contains scores of similar verses.

And all these verses have never been abrogated before, so they're still 'active' and valid for Muslim terror to spread 'freely and with impunity'.

So we find Quranic commands and injunctions to go fight with other people!

I really cannot consider Islam a 'so-called 'peaceful religion' when it has all these kinds of verses and commands for Muslims to follow and obey! :ahem:

How can Islam be truly a peaceful religion if the Quran itself enjoins such violence and terrorism?

Regards, Dan...see also this thread:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37304&page=3

All the best.





Cross posting of duplicate message. I left the link to the other message up for people to refer to if they wish.

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[Jin-Roh]

Some claim that Islam's Glorious Koran is the foundation of "a religion of peace?" Is that true? Does the Koran promote peace or does it promote terrorism, jihad and hatred? What verses from the Koran show your point of view?

Well Jude, why don't you tell us your opinion as a scholar of world religions?

[Jude3b]

Well Jude, why don't you tell us your opinion as a scholar of world religions?

Dear Jin-Roh:

I have asked in this thread the opinion of others. However, when I read in the Koran - the teachings that promote violence and advocate the spread of Islam by force, I find it nearly impossible to look upon Islam as the so-called, "Religion of Peace" that many try to claim it to be.

Example of some verses from the Koran:

"Allah is an enemy to infidels" (2:92).

"Fight for the cause of Allah" (2:245).

"Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than believers: whoso shall do this has nothing to hope from Allah" (3:27).

"Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies" (4:102).

"O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any of you takes them for his friends, he surely is one of them" (5:56)!

"Fight then against them until strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's" (8:40).

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth" (9:29).

And there are other verses in the Koran that seem to indicate that Islam is not a religion of peace. (Unless you mean in the Hitler sense - give me a piece of this country and a piece of that one - until all the world is Muslim!)

[Timothy Leary]

There are very similar passages in the NT.

2 Corinthians 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

[Jude3b]

There are very similar passages in the NT.

2 Corinthians 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Amazing:

That anyone can compare 2 Corinthians 6 from the New Testament - which is basically telling Christians to live righteous and separate lives from sinners.

With the Koran and its verses that tell its followers to "slay the infidel" and conert the world by force.

Doesn't make sense!

[drhonk]

Hi there,

Just to clarify few things that are misunderstood by most people. Infidels, refer by Muslim Extremists, as anyone that are non-muslim is wrong. The correct meaning of infidel is anyone who do not believe in God, hence I didn't say Allah because Allah is just an arabic word for God. Koran even mention, I forgot which Surah, that all muslims should respect Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus) followers. You have to remember one thing, Koran was given to Mohammad saw. at a time when most people in that region were still worship statue or idols, so when Koran mention infidels or non-believers .. it refers to these people. Some how the Muslim Extremists understand it differently.

This same goes with the meaning of Jihad. Koran states your daily activities such as study and work can be called Jihad if you do it in the name of Allah. However, fighting the non-believers (idol worshippers) or fight to defend your country can also be called Jihad if you do it in the name of Allah.

Jude3b .. can you tell me where did you find the english verses of Koran you provided. Those quotes are wrong, below I've provided a correct English translation to certain "Surah" and "Ayat" you provided.


"Allah is an enemy to infidels" (2:92).


2:92 There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully.


"Fight for the cause of Allah" (2:245).


2:245 Who is he that will loan to Allah a beautiful loan, which Allah will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is Allah that giveth (you) Want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.


"Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than believers: whoso shall do this has nothing to hope from Allah" (3:27).


3:27 "Thou causest the night to gain on the day, and thou causest the day to gain on the night; Thou bringest the Living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the Living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure."


"Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies" (4:102).


4:102 And when thou (O Muhammad) art among them and arrangest (their) worship for them, let only a party of them stand with thee (to worship) and let them take their arms. Then when they have performed their prostrations let them fall to the rear and let another party come that hath not worshipped and let them worship with thee, and let them take their precaution and their arms. Those who disbelieve long for you to neglect your arms and your baggage that they may attack you once for all. It is no sin for you to lay aside your arms, if rain impedeth you or ye are sick. But take your precaution. Lo! Allah prepareth for the disbelievers shameful punishment.


"O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any of you takes them for his friends, he surely is one of them" (5:56)!


5:56 As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.


"Fight then against them until strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's" (8:40).


8:40 If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.


"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth" (9:29).


9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Hope this helps

Cheers,

[Jude3b]

Hi there,

Just to clarify few things that are misunderstood by most people. Infidels, refer by Muslim Extremists, as anyone that are non-muslim is wrong. The correct meaning of infidel is anyone who do not believe in God, hence I didn't say Allah because Allah is just an arabic word for God. Koran even mention, I forgot which Surah, that all muslims should respect Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus) followers. You have to remember one thing, Koran was given to Mohammad saw. at a time when most people in that region were still worship statue or idols, so when Koran mention infidels or non-believers .. it refers to these people. Some how the Muslim Extremists understand it differently.

This same goes with the meaning of Jihad. Koran states your daily activities such as study and work can be called Jihad if you do it in the name of Allah. However, fighting the non-believers (idol worshippers) or fight to defend your country can also be called Jihad if you do it in the name of Allah.

Jude3b .. can you tell me where did you find the english verses of Koran you provided. Those quotes are wrong, below I've provided a correct English translation to certain "Surah" and "Ayat" you provided.



2:92 There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully.



2:245 Who is he that will loan to Allah a beautiful loan, which Allah will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is Allah that giveth (you) Want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.



3:27 "Thou causest the night to gain on the day, and thou causest the day to gain on the night; Thou bringest the Living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the Living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure."



4:102 And when thou (O Muhammad) art among them and arrangest (their) worship for them, let only a party of them stand with thee (to worship) and let them take their arms. Then when they have performed their prostrations let them fall to the rear and let another party come that hath not worshipped and let them worship with thee, and let them take their precaution and their arms. Those who disbelieve long for you to neglect your arms and your baggage that they may attack you once for all. It is no sin for you to lay aside your arms, if rain impedeth you or ye are sick. But take your precaution. Lo! Allah prepareth for the disbelievers shameful punishment.



5:56 As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.



8:40 If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.



9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Hope this helps

Cheers,

Certain Versions/Translations of the Koran seem to have verses off by one or two numbers in the way or order they are listed.

"Let not believers take disbelievers for their friends..." (Surah III:28a).

"O ye who believe! Choose not for friends such of those (Jews or Christians) who received the Scripture before you." (Surah V:57a).

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.." ( Surah VIII:39a).

"Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous" (Surah IX:123)

Doesn't seem that Islam is the "religion of peace" that some say it is!

[Solly]

Right. And of course, 'God' wasn't brought into the Iraq invasion at all, no sirree, never got a mention. And remember all them godless commies we had to fight, and so put "In God we trust" on your coinage, and inserted "one nation under God" in your PoA. And remember manifest destiny: God has providentially given us this continent, let us aggressively conquer it. Every time the phrase "God bless America" is said in the vicinity of military hardware, you proclaim the same doctrines you criticise Islam for. All you are doing is propogating the myth All Islam Is Bad: Destroy. Christianity is meant to be in international community, not one based in political boundaries: Islam, a later religion, is only just learning to face the fact that the same is true for it, hence its internal struggles, the same struggles we faced 500 years ago. What understanding of Islam are you promoting with your proof texting. have you read all the koran, or are you cut and pasting. have you read the Hadith? Have you read up on the difference between Sunni and Shiah and Sufi? have you distinguished between reactionary Islam in places like Iran, and 'progressive' - note the apostrophies - Islam in Turkey and Egypt, and especially in America and Britain?

Are you applying methods of interpretation to the Koran that we would not allow to be applied to the Bible? Remember the Wars of Israel in Canaan? Sceptics point to those and call Christianity and our God bloodthirsty; perhaps you are making the same mistake, just as earlier generations of Muslims did, and earlier generations of Christians did, ie Augustine and the Donatists, Protestants and the Catholics, Protestants and the Anabaptists, Protestants and the Colonies. What skills do you have in Koranic interpretation?

[Augustine2004]

[/b]I'd ask any Muslim that I happen to meet, if I can ask, whether Islam is a religion of peace. If the answer is less than 'peace', I'd be inclined to run for cover!

[Jude3b]

Right. And of course, 'God' wasn't brought into the Iraq invasion at all, no sirree, never got a mention. And remember all them godless commies we had to fight, and so put "In God we trust" on your coinage, and inserted "one nation under God" in your PoA. And remember manifest destiny: God has providentially given us this continent, let us aggressively conquer it. Every time the phrase "God bless America" is said in the vicinity of military hardware, you proclaim the same doctrines you criticise Islam for. All you are doing is propogating the myth All Islam Is Bad: Destroy. Christianity is meant to be in international community, not one based in political boundaries: Islam, a later religion, is only just learning to face the fact that the same is true for it, hence its internal struggles, the same struggles we faced 500 years ago. What understanding of Islam are you promoting with your proof texting. have you read all the koran, or are you cut and pasting. have you read the Hadith? Have you read up on the difference between Sunni and Shiah and Sufi? have you distinguished between reactionary Islam in places like Iran, and 'progressive' - note the apostrophies - Islam in Turkey and Egypt, and especially in America and Britain?

Are you applying methods of interpretation to the Koran that we would not allow to be applied to the Bible? Remember the Wars of Israel in Canaan? Sceptics point to those and call Christianity and our God bloodthirsty; perhaps you are making the same mistake, just as earlier generations of Muslims did, and earlier generations of Christians did, ie Augustine and the Donatists, Protestants and the Catholics, Protestants and the Anabaptists, Protestants and the Colonies. What skills do you have in Koranic interpretation?

I have the ability to read English and what I read in the Hadith and the Koran scares me. I do not understand how the so-called "Religion of Peace" can be validated - when the so-called "Holy Book" of their faith - is filled with the type of verses that I have quoted.

You ask about methods of interpretation. When I read the Bible in context - it is clear and easy to understand. I'll bet you have noticed that He didn't call them "The Ten Suggestions!"

Solly, since your post seems to imply that you might have skills in Koranic interpretation - if that is true, please tell us what the Koranic verses that have been quoted really mean.

Also, if you can - please show us how Islam really is a religion of peace and that it is not out to convert the whole world - by any means possible, including force.

Thank you.

[Snarf]

I have the ability to read English and what I read in the Hadith and the Koran scares me. I do not understand how the so-called "Religion of Peace" can be validated - when the so-called "Holy Book" of their faith - is filled with the type of verses that I have quoted.

You ask about methods of interpretation. When I read the Bible in context - it is clear and easy to understand. I'll bet you have noticed that He didn't call them "The Ten Suggestions!"

Solly, since your post seems to imply that you might have skills in Koranic interpretation - if that is true, please tell us what the Koranic verses that have been quoted really mean.

Also, if you can - please show us how Islam really is a religion of peace and that it is not out to convert the whole world - by any means possible, including force.

Thank you.

Hello,

I'm not sure why you asked me a fourth time whether or not Jesus is my savior and whether I am saved. Weren't the first three times enough?

Yes Jesus is my savior, and yes I believe that I will go to heaven.

You also shared about your history; I came in the opposite road. I used to be a fundamentalist evangelical, and after a number of years I saw many inconsistencies in the evangelical position. for example, if one is saved only by faith in Jesus, then why should one's nonacceptance of Biblical inerrancy matter, considering that the bible itself didn't exist until a few centuries after Jesus. Also, I got sick of nosy Christians trying to determine what sins I had been committing, gossiping about what they thought were flaws in my spiritual life, etc. Nice thing about being Catholic is that no one from my church will start asking me about movies that I have seen, and telling me which ones to stay away from.

Well, back to the thread. You talk about reading the Bible in context, but you criticize the Koran by pulling verses out of it without considering that Koranic verses have a context too. Considering how different were the verses that you originally cited, and what they actually read (according to drhonk), one wonders whether we should believe your later quotes. Apparantly, you seem to think that it's wrong to call a book like the Bible violent when verses are quoted in isolation, yet you do that to the Koran. After all, Jesus said

"I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
How can you call Him peaceful?

Evidence for Islam being peaceful; the actions of most muslims worldwide. If it is a religion of violence as you say, then they should ALL be violent. clearly they are not (according to Dan Zebiri, they are nonviolent only because they're told to be). You correctly pointed out that their culture influences their actions, could it be that the violent verses (which seem to be the only ones that you read, there's lots of peaceful ones that you ignore) really aren't as important to the followers of the faith as a hater of their faith wants to make it seem? (kind of like getting an objective version of the history of WWII from an Aryan).

[Jude3b]

Hello,

I'm not sure why you asked me a fourth time whether or not Jesus is my savior and whether I am saved. Weren't the first three times enough?

Yes Jesus is my savior, and yes I believe that I will go to heaven.

You also shared about your history; I came in the opposite road. I used to be a fundamentalist evangelical, and after a number of years I saw many inconsistencies in the evangelical position. for example, if one is saved only by faith in Jesus, then why should one's nonacceptance of Biblical inerrancy matter, considering that the bible itself didn't exist until a few centuries after Jesus. Also, I got sick of nosy Christians trying to determine what sins I had been committing, gossiping about what they thought were flaws in my spiritual life, etc. Nice thing about being Catholic is that no one from my church will start asking me about movies that I have seen, and telling me which ones to stay away from.

Well, back to the thread. You talk about reading the Bible in context, but you criticize the Koran by pulling verses out of it without considering that Koranic verses have a context too. Considering how different were the verses that you originally cited, and what they actually read (according to drhonk), one wonders whether we should believe your later quotes. Apparantly, you seem to think that it's wrong to call a book like the Bible violent when verses are quoted in isolation, yet you do that to the Koran. After all, Jesus said

"I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
How can you call Him peaceful?

Evidence for Islam being peaceful; the actions of most muslims worldwide. If it is a religion of violence as you say, then they should ALL be violent. clearly they are not (according to Dan Zebiri, they are nonviolent only because they're told to be). You correctly pointed out that their culture influences their actions, could it be that the violent verses (which seem to be the only ones that you read, there's lots of peaceful ones that you ignore) really aren't as important to the followers of the faith as a hater of their faith wants to make it seem? (kind of like getting an objective version of the history of WWII from an Aryan).

Your questions and comments might seem logical except for the fact that nearly on a daily basis we read and hear about and watch on Television the horrible murders and killings and beheadings that are taking place all over the world - especially in the Arab nations - and these acts are done by Muslims who take the verses of the Koran literally and are doing what it says.

[Timothy Leary]

Amazing:

That anyone can compare 2 Corinthians 6 from the New Testament - which is basically telling Christians to live righteous and separate lives from sinners.


Many of the passages you quoted were saying the same thing. (Not all, but many)

[Timothy Leary]

I have the ability to read English and what I read in the Hadith and the Koran scares me. I do not understand how the so-called "Religion of Peace" can be validated - when the so-called "Holy Book" of their faith - is filled with the type of verses that I have quoted.

Reminds me of when I read the NT.

You ask about methods of interpretation. When I read the Bible in context - it is clear and easy to understand. I'll bet you have noticed that He didn't call them "The Ten Suggestions!"

You'll also notice he didn't call them the ten commandments either. They're called "Aseres Had'vorim" - the ten "words" or "statements".

Also, if you can - please show us how Islam really is a religion of peace and that it is not out to convert the whole world - by any means possible, including force.

Christianity is not innocent of this either.

[Jude3b]

Reminds me of when I read the NT.



You'll also notice he didn't call them the ten commandments either. They're called "Aseres Had'vorim" - the ten "words" or "statements".



Christianity is not innocent of this either.

Dear Karaite:

Your statement is false.

True Biblical Christianity has never attempted to convert anyone by force. If you understood Jesus Christ and His love, you would know this to be true.

Karaite, when you speak of Christianity - you are really talking about Religion, Denominations and Sects - such as Roman Catholicism, etc. You are not talking about true Christianity - which is a relationship of the people of God - with their personal Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. It is not a denomination or a Sect.

True Christianity is the Love of God given and being received by all who will listen and accept the good news message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Good news that God loves everyone and sent His only begotten Son - Jesus Christ - to die for us, so that we don't have to die in our sins and receive the jugement and eternal incarceration in Hell that we deserve.

[heaven]

Dear Karaite
The Koran has two contexts pre Medina and pre Mecca, and succeeding verses eliminate
prior. Thus Mohammed has a change of heart and later advocates a religion spread and
maintained by armed conflict.

The peaceful muslims....the Gia in Algeria are murderers and torturers of their own people,
the Taliban terrible, and so forth. The only peaceful moslems are those that do not read
arabic and/or do not read the Koran. The religion has no separation of church and
state, thus all of the examples you give are state armed conflict and policy and not
religious policy or interpretation of the bible.

The western societies are multi cultural and multi religion, hence excesses in the culture, such as dress or rock music (http://begin2search.com/cgi-bin//ezlclk.fcgi?id=20) should not be attributed to christianity

Christianity can be cultural, said person can be a great citizen, but radical christianity
is a relationship (http://begin2search.com/cgi-bin//ezlclk.fcgi?id=12) with God Almighty and not a set of rules to be debated about an
abstract deity as in the Koran.

Even the Word of God, the bible, is just that the inspired Word of God and not the
whims of a mere sinful self proclaimed prophet of the Koran.

The only way to a relationship (http://begin2search.com/cgi-bin//ezlclk.fcgi?id=12) with the Creator God of the universe is through Jesus
Christ and not by keeping laws or listening to the Gia or the Taliban or out of fear.
In Jesus all fear is gone.

[Snarf]

[QUOTE=heaven]Dear Karaite
The Koran has two contexts pre Medina and pre Mecca, and succeeding verses eliminate
prior. Thus Mohammed has a change of heart and later advocates a religion spread and
maintained by armed conflict.

The peaceful muslims....the Gia in Algeria are murderers and torturers of their own people,
the Taliban terrible, and so forth. The only peaceful moslems are those that do not read
arabic and/or do not read the Koran. The religion has no separation of church and
state, thus all of the examples you give are state armed conflict and policy and not
religious policy or interpretation of the bible.

[QUOTE]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's lots of peaceful Muslims who do read the Arabic and the Koran. But given your earlier statement that the crusades were good, it is clear that you only have a desire to see Muslims dead. This is the peaceful Christian attitude you want others to believe? Your desire to have people of other religions killed?

Yes Jude, here is your modern example of a peaceful Christian, one who thinks that the crusades didn't go far enough. Tell us about 'peaceful' Christians now!

[Snarf]

Dear Karaite:

Your statement is false.

True Biblical Christianity has never attempted to convert anyone by force. If you understood Jesus Christ and His love, you would know this to be true.

Karaite, when you speak of Christianity - you are really talking about Religion, Denominations and Sects - such as Roman Catholicism, etc. You are not talking about true Christianity - which is a relationship of the people of God - with their personal Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. It is not a denomination or a Sect.

True Christianity is the Love of God given and being received by all who will listen and accept the good news message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Good news that God loves everyone and sent His only begotten Son - Jesus Christ - to die for us, so that we don't have to die in our sins and receive the jugement and eternal incarceration in Hell that we deserve.

It is clear that you do not believe that people are Christians because of their belief in Jesus dying for the salvation of the world, since Catholics, Lutherans, Eatern Orthodox, etc. believe it, but you disavow their Christianity because of actions performed in the past (like threatening to kill others if others didn't convert to christianity). Yoiur denial that Christ-accepting Christians tried to force people to convert doesn't make the historical facts less true. Even here on TWeb, we have a Christian, by your definition of Christ-accepting, (named heaven) who thinks that the crusades were good. this is your idea of peaceful Christianity?

Jude, I know that you do not advocate violence in the name of Jesus, and I commend you for that. But when a fellow Christian speaks of killing muslims as being a good thing, should we who advocate the peace of Christ be silent?

[Timothy Leary]

The only peaceful moslems are those that do not read
arabic and/or do not read the Koran.

That is a lie and I know it. Until the Lavon Affair, Karaite Jews had been (more or less) been left to worship as they pleased, to direct their own communities, etc. In fact, we've recieved emails from Egyptians wishing that their government hadn't been so stupid after the Lavon Affair in it's treatment of us, which forced us to flee to Israel or America.

In the middle ages, when we were persecuted by "Orthodox" Jews, the Muslim authorities put an end to it!

The religion has no separation of church and
state, thus all of the examples you give are state armed conflict and policy and not
religious policy or interpretation of the bible.

No, many adherants of Islam do not seperate Church and State. Christianity and Judaism have done the same things before! Many still do!

And with all due respect, the rest of your statements you've used can be turned against you.

[Timothy Leary]

Jude, I know of many Muslims who say similar things about others who murder and forcibly convert people in the name of their Religion. They are absolutely repulsed by those who do such things, just as you are about those who do it in the name of Christianity.

Dear Karaite:

Your statement is false.

True Biblical Christianity has never attempted to convert anyone by force. If you understood Jesus Christ and His love, you would know this to be true.

Karaite, when you speak of Christianity - you are really talking about Religion, Denominations and Sects - such as Roman Catholicism, etc. You are not talking about true Christianity - which is a relationship of the people of God - with their personal Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. It is not a denomination or a Sect.

True Christianity is the Love of God given and being received by all who will listen and accept the good news message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the Good news that God loves everyone and sent His only begotten Son - Jesus Christ - to die for us, so that we don't have to die in our sins and receive the jugement and eternal incarceration in Hell that we deserve.

[Jude3b]

It is clear that you do not believe that people are Christians because of their belief in Jesus dying for the salvation of the world, since Catholics, Lutherans, Eatern Orthodox, etc. believe it, but you disavow their Christianity because of actions performed in the past (like threatening to kill others if others didn't convert to christianity). Yoiur denial that Christ-accepting Christians tried to force people to convert doesn't make the historical facts less true. Even here on TWeb, we have a Christian, by your definition of Christ-accepting, (named heaven) who thinks that the crusades were good. this is your idea of peaceful Christianity?

Jude, I know that you do not advocate violence in the name of Jesus, and I commend you for that. But when a fellow Christian speaks of killing muslims as being a good thing, should we who advocate the peace of Christ be silent?

Dear Snarf:

You stated, "when a fellow Christian speaks of killing muslims as being a good thing, should we who advocate the peace of Christ be silent? Obviously No, a Christian should not be silet if he hears a fellow Christian advocating the killings of muslims. When or where did you read that heaven stated such a thing? What is the post number and thread name?

[Jude3b]

Jude, I know of many Muslims who say similar things about others who murder and forcibly convert people in the name of their Religion. They are absolutely repulsed by those who do such things, just as you are about those who do it in the name of Christianity.

Dear Karaite:

I do not doubt for a minute that there are many Muslims who are repulsed when they see otherr Muslims who practice murder (terrorism) in the name of Allah and their religion Islam.

My question concerning that truth is this: aren't those peaceful Muslims failing to take their Koran and many of the Mullahs less than seriously? It seems to me that a peaceful Muslim - would be a liberal Muslim. How do you see it?

[Timothy Leary]

Dear Karaite:

I do not doubt for a minute that there are many Muslims who are repulsed when they see otherr Muslims who practice murder (terrorism) in the name of Allah and their religion Islam.

My question concerning that truth is this: aren't those peaceful Muslims failing to take their Koran and many of the Mullahs less than seriously? It seems to me that a peaceful Muslim - would be a liberal Muslim. How do you see it?

Whether or not there interperetations are correct is an issue that would be best for a Muslim to show us why an interperetation is or isn't correct. A person's political orientation shouldn't matter. Just like any text, to truly understand it, you need to read it in the original. Also, remember that while they may not have been correct, Jews and Christians have done the same things based on their scriptures.

[Solly]

Jude, you clearly show from your interactions that it is next to impossible to dialogue with you, since you exhibit an Outsidethecamp.com mentality.

i do not, and did not claim to be an expert on Quranic interpretation; but since I am supposed to be an expert of sorts on Bible interpretation, being a minister, I think that the least we can do is not use discredited proof-texting methods on other peoples' scriptures just to prove our point. It is interesting how, on the one hand, whenever there is a sniff of violence in connection with Christianity, you run to base and cry, "Not True Christianity, just catholicism, or whatever". Yet whenever someone claims that Islam can be peaceful, you run to the other base and cry, "not interpreting the Quran properly, all muslims should be fanatic death merchants".
It is quite obviously the fact, even from the history of protestantism in America and the UK that militarism, death, torture, etc have been seen to be compatible with a profession of Christian belief, as well as pressurization to conform made upon dissenters, either amongst Christians or sceptics. Godly Archbishop Cranmer, who gave us one of the gems of English literature, was instrumental in the persecuation of Catholics and Anabaptists. Bernard of Clairvaux, a wonderful preacher of the love of God, instigated one of the crusades. Oliver Cromwell, from his letters clearly a godly man, deposed a king and fought a civil war. The Massachussets presbyterians persecuted Baptists and Quakers. The doctrine of Manifest Destiny was clearly a christian view, which lead to the death of many native Americans. Bush has invoked the name of God in reference to Afghanistan and Iraq.
No, I am not an expert in Quranic interpretation, but I read those who are.
No, it is not true that peaceful muslims are those who don't read their Qurans; they read them differently, just as the peace churches such as the Mennonites read them differently, just as I read it differently and condemn the arrogance and violence perpetrated by the American administration in Iraq in the name of God. Just as I condemn the death penalty still operating in godly Christian America; just as I condemn abortion operating in godly Christian America.
Any engagement with Islam must take account of the cultural affects of the crusades that endure to this day - hence Bush's gaff when he used the word. However long ago they were, and whatever atrocities were being perpretrated by the Caliphs at the time, and they were, in the Islamic consciousness today they hold centre stage, as well as the colonialism of the European powers over the last two centuries. If you think dialogue with Muslims involves a shoot first, ask questions later methodology, then you are perpetuating the problem, not remedying it, because you are saying that the only good muslim is a dead one or a converted one; in which case you have failed your Lord, because that was not his policy.

[Snarf]

Dear Snarf:

You stated, "when a fellow Christian speaks of killing muslims as being a good thing, should we who advocate the peace of Christ be silent? Obviously No, a Christian should not be silet if he hears a fellow Christian advocating the killings of muslims. When or where did you read that heaven stated such a thing? What is the post number and thread name?

from
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37304&page=7

heaven wrote:
"Dear Read Your Bible

You give a detailed complaint about the crusades and crusaders, an incorrect
historical account and then say read your bible. I suggest you do, begin
with the Book of Revelation and Genesis and then Matthew and find out
about Jesus.

I thank God for the Reconquista and the Holy Land Crusades, militant Islam
has been held at bay, only to rear it's ugly head once more.I hear more
complaints about the arabs or moslems being slaughtered by Christians, but
then they chose to spread a religion by force and the sword.
What about the blessed pedophile Mohammed who married a 9 yr. old and
instituted polygamy, counted woman not even half the value of a man and
who had spells, which many claimed were demonic, a religion that issues a
death fatwa for criticizing Mohammed or the Koran, a false prophet who
represents the concept of deity, a god who cannot be known. "

This is peaceful Christianity?

[Jude3b]

from
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37304&page=7

heaven wrote:
"Dear Read Your Bible

You give a detailed complaint about the crusades and crusaders, an incorrect
historical account and then say read your bible. I suggest you do, begin
with the Book of Revelation and Genesis and then Matthew and find out
about Jesus.

I thank God for the Reconquista and the Holy Land Crusades, militant Islam
has been held at bay, only to rear it's ugly head once more.I hear more
complaints about the arabs or moslems being slaughtered by Christians, but
then they chose to spread a religion by force and the sword.
What about the blessed pedophile Mohammed who married a 9 yr. old and
instituted polygamy, counted woman not even half the value of a man and
who had spells, which many claimed were demonic, a religion that issues a
death fatwa for criticizing Mohammed or the Koran, a false prophet who
represents the concept of deity, a god who cannot be known. "

This is peaceful Christianity?

True Christians are not attacking or making war with the sword (today guns and tanks and bombs) against Muslims. The Crusades have been over for a thousand years. It was the Roman Catholic religion that were involved in the Crusades.

We need to talk about today!

The truth about today is this: Islam today is the most powerful system on earth for the destruction of biblical truth and Christianity. Islam is the main persecutor of Christians all over the world. Thousands of Christians are dying under Islamic persecution, especially in the Middle East, Africa, Indonesia, and other parts of Asia.

Isn't it true that as far as Islam is concerned, the world is divided into two parts - Dar al Salaam ("house of peace"), where Allah rules; and Dar al Harb ("house of war"), where people are NOT IN SUBMISSION TO ALLAH???

In this "religion of peace called Islam" - It's either peace, if you submit to Allah, or it's holy war, jihad.

[Solly]

True Christians are not attacking or making war with the sword (today guns and tanks and bombs) against Muslims. The Crusades have been over for a thousand years. It was the Roman Catholic religion that were involved in the Crusades.

I guess I'm on ignore then, if you missed my references to protestant violence.

We need to talk about today!

Yeh, like Bush taking God's name in vain over his WoT and invasion of Iraq.

The truth about today is this: Islam today is the most powerful system on earth for the destruction of biblical truth and Christianity.

Wrong. Backslidden, compromising, anything-goes consumers-for-Christ Christians are.

Islam is the main persecutor of Christians all over the world. Thousands of Christians are dying under Islamic persecution, especially in the Middle East, Africa, Indonesia, and other parts of Asia.

This was to be expected, we were warned of it; we were told that the gates of hell would not prevail though, so what's your beef? Christianity is growing under persecution in areas such as these, and also in China, stragnely not an Islamic country, or Latin America, again, not an Islamic continent.

Isn't it true that as far as Islam is concerned, the world is divided into two parts - Dar al Salaam ("house of peace"), where Allah rules; and Dar al Harb ("house of war"), where people are NOT IN SUBMISSION TO ALLAH???

In this "religion of peace called Islam" - It's either peace, if you submit to Allah, or it's holy war, jihad.

Is it not true that Christians also believe that there are those who are Dar al Salaam, in the House of Peace of Jesus Christ, and those who are Dar al harb, in the House of War against God: the religion of Islam is only a Christian heresy mixed with paganism. Check your next available Jack Chick tract. Check your next broadcast from the White House. Check your next "God hates Fags" demo. Is it not true that either we have bowed the knee to Jesus Christ, or we are not in submission to him?

[heaven]

Dear Snarf:

The concept of the crusades has been a terrible hinderance to the spread of Islam, while
the manner of the crusades were not. There were no telephones or communication, the
crusaders were very ignorant and did not know one populace from another. The
crusades were not an act of aggression to destroy other religions or peoples, the crusades were a response to the spread of Islam, uninvited by jihad.
The crusades have been successful in keeping Islam in check until the present.

[Snarf]

Dear Snarf:

The concept of the crusades has been a terrible hinderance to the spread of Islam, while
the manner of the crusades were not. There were no telephones or communication, the
crusaders were very ignorant and did not know one populace from another. The
crusades were not an act of aggression to destroy other religions or peoples, the crusades were a response to the spread of Islam, uninvited by jihad.
The crusades have been successful in keeping Islam in check until the present.

The sick desire to see the deaths of thousands has no place in Christianity.
What goes around comes around, possibly one day people will thank God for what may happen to bloodthirsty,so-called Christians as they experience the war which they advocate, particularly to soft Americans who advocate war but are too cowardly to participate, and instead stuff their faces while watching others pay the price for their lust for violence.

[Jude3b]

The sick desire to see the deaths of thousands has no place in Christianity.
What goes around comes around, possibly one day people will thank God for what may happen to bloodthirsty,so-called Christians as they experience the war which they advocate, particularly to soft Americans who advocate war but are too cowardly to participate, and instead stuff their faces while watching others pay the price for their lust for violence.

WOW!!!

What are you Snarf??? Are you a Muslim terrorist?

[Timothy Leary]

Jude3b, while I don't agree with Snarf's remarks, he raises a valid point. Many of the supporters of the War in Iraq have never experienced any sort of war. However, those who criticize it are less likely to have been involved with war.

[kofh2u]

[QUOTE=heaven]Dear Karaite
The Koran has two contexts pre Medina and pre Mecca, and succeeding verses eliminate
prior. Thus Mohammed has a change of heart and later advocates a religion spread and
maintained by armed conflict.

The peaceful muslims....the Gia in Algeria are murderers and torturers of their own people,
the Taliban terrible, and so forth. The only peaceful moslems are those that do not read
arabic and/or do not read the Koran. The religion has no separation of church and
state, thus all of the examples you give are state armed conflict and policy and not
religious policy or interpretation of the bible.

[QUOTE]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's lots of peaceful Muslims who do read the Arabic and the Koran. But given your earlier statement that the crusades were good, it is clear that you only have a desire to see Muslims dead. This is the peaceful Christian attitude you want others to believe? Your desire to have people of other religions killed?

Yes Jude, here is your modern example of a peaceful Christian, one who thinks that the crusades didn't go far enough. Tell us about 'peaceful' Christians now!


Tea pots calling out to kettles?

I wonder about the five pillars, charity, first.

Does the Koran teach charity beyond aid to muslims? That is, does Islamic love extend to enemies, as does the teaching of Christianity... (perhaps not so much the congregations)...?

Is the concept of Christianity, if not the practice, superior in this to the Koran?

Tnen. also, I ponder the pikkar of Hajj.
Does the muslim's reverence for Mecca disrespect the Torah's teaching to the Jew by denying Jerusalem and the waiking wall to the "people of the book." Is there any religious reciprocity in denying non-Moslem attendance in Mecca while insisting on Muslim PLO ownership of the Promised Land?

The other three pillars, I have more questions, but these seem to be a thorn in the teachings and interpretation of Koran.

Help me understand, brother.

[heaven]

Dear Koph2u,

Before you answer about Islamic hospitality towards christians at moslem sites and in
moslem lands and moslem hospitality towards jews on the Temple Mount and at the
Wailing Wall, please do not state that I am advocating the killing of moslems. The
crusades killed christians, moslems and jews. What I have said is that the concept
has proven ok, in retrospect, since islamic terrorists and islamic jihad has been kept
in check until the present.
Please do not go around posting that I , as a christian, advocate the murder of muslims, I advocate their conversion to prevent terrorist bloodshed of innocents.

[brahmabull]

Sorry to jump in here so late, but I am new here...

It seems to me that at the crux of this debate we are looking for a little interpretation and clarity of some koran verses. Comparison to Bible versus can come after the first is clarified.

So I will ask a question similar to what was asked to begin with.

Will somebody who knows the answer clarify and contextualize these quotes:

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst
you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Killing Idolaters
9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and
besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free
to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Forcing non-believers to pay tax
9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited,
nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and
they are in a state of subjection.

Smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers
8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts
of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Smite the neck of unbelievers
47.4: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them)
prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and
if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and
(as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Severe Punishment for atheists
10.4: To Him is your return, of all (of you); the promise of Allah (made) in truth; surely He begins the creation in the first instance,
then He reproduces it, that He may with justice recompense those who believe and do good; and (as for) those who disbelieve, they shall
have a drink of hot water and painful punishment because they disbelieved.

5.10: And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject our communications, these are the companions of the name.

5.86: And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the companions of the flame.

Severe Punishment for non-believers
22.19: These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of
fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.

22.20: With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.

22.21: And for them are whips of iron.

22.22: Whenever they will desire to go forth from it, from grief, they shall be turned back into it, and taste the chastisement of
burning.

Severe Punishment for non-believers
72.23: (It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle surely
he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time.

98.6: Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding
therein; they are the worst of men.

Punishing for rejecting faith
3.91: Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them,
though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.

Punishment for apostates
16.106: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith,
but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief -- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

3.86: How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Apostle was
true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

3.87: (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.

3.88: Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be respited.

3.89: Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

3.90: Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.

4.137: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not
forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

[kofh2u]

Dear Koph2u,

Before you answer about Islamic hospitality towards christians at moslem sites and in
moslem lands and moslem hospitality towards jews on the Temple Mount and at the
Wailing Wall, please do not state that I am advocating the killing of moslems. The
crusades killed christians, moslems and jews. What I have said is that the concept
has proven ok, in retrospect, since islamic terrorists and islamic jihad has been kept
in check until the present.
Please do not go around posting that I , as a christian, advocate the murder of muslims, I advocate their conversion to prevent terrorist bloodshed of innocents.


huh?...."please do not state that I am advocating the killing of moslems"...

Was I doing that? Sorry, my fault.

I, oo, advocate we improve upon the good dtart of Islamic monotheism and work towards the next step, Christian love for, especially, the poor souls of our enemies, the pagan unbelieves.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel (an insight within my mind), poured out his vial (of intuitions) upon the great river of Islam, Euphrates; and the waters (of that people's theology) thereof was dried up (and ready for the fire of Christian baptism), that the way of conversion (to Christ) of the (Mullah) kings of the (middle) east might be prepared.

[Jude3b]

Sorry to jump in here so late, but I am new here...

It seems to me that at the crux of this debate we are looking for a little interpretation and clarity of some koran verses. Comparison to Bible versus can come after the first is clarified.

So I will ask a question similar to what was asked to begin with.

Will somebody who knows the answer clarify and contextualize these quotes:

Dear brahmabull:

Thank you for asking that this thread be returned to its original purpose. I really would hope that we would have a Muslim - tell us their accepted interpretation of those verses and why they interpret it the way they do. How about it, do we have any Muslims who will do that for us???

[Snarf]

Dear Koph2u,

Before you answer about Islamic hospitality towards christians at moslem sites and in
moslem lands and moslem hospitality towards jews on the Temple Mount and at the
Wailing Wall, please do not state that I am advocating the killing of moslems. The
crusades killed christians, moslems and jews. What I have said is that the concept
has proven ok, in retrospect, since islamic terrorists and islamic jihad has been kept
in check until the present.
Please do not go around posting that I , as a christian, advocate the murder of muslims, I advocate their conversion to prevent terrorist bloodshed of innocents.
"The crusades killed christians, moslems and jews. What I have said is that the concept has proven ok, in retrospect, since islamic terrorists and islamic jihad has been kept
in check until the present."


So, the concept that killing Christians, Muslims, and Jews has "proven ok?"

Further, you advocate the conversion of Muslims so that terrorists won't kill.

Have you considered seeing a psyciatrist about your desire to see people killed?

[Snarf]

Dear Koph2u,

Before you answer about Islamic hospitality towards christians at moslem sites and in
moslem lands and moslem hospitality towards jews on the Temple Mount and at the
Wailing Wall, please do not state that I am advocating the killing of moslems. The
crusades killed christians, moslems and jews. What I have said is that the concept
has proven ok, in retrospect, since islamic terrorists and islamic jihad has been kept
in check until the present.
Please do not go around posting that I , as a christian, advocate the murder of muslims, I advocate their conversion to prevent terrorist bloodshed of innocents.

You don't even know history, the Crusades were a failure since the crusaders didn't keep the Holy Land, but lost it.

Saying that the crusades were a good thing, and then saying that one is not advocating the killing of Muslims is like saying that the Holocaust was a good thing, but you really like Jews.

You must have loved 9/11, after all probably lots of Muslims died then too. For some reason, i can see you watching footage from Iraq in a couch with a big bowl of Fritos, and dip on the side cheering on the bombing of homes of Muslims.

Jude, if you're reading this, is this your religion of peace? One with followers who think that wars like the Crusades were good things?

[Jude3b]

You don't even know history, the Crusades were a failure since the crusaders didn't keep the Holy Land, but lost it.

Saying that the crusades were a good thing, and then saying that one is not advocating the killing of Muslims is like saying that the Holocaust was a good thing, but you really like Jews.

You must have loved 9/11, after all probably lots of Muslims died then too. For some reason, i can see you watching footage from Iraq in a couch with a big bowl of Fritos, and dip on the side cheering on the bombing of homes of Muslims.

Jude, if you're reading this, is this your religion of peace? One with followers who think that wars like the Crusades were good things?

Yes, I'm reading this Snarf:

First let me state that it seems to me that you are attempting to twist what Heaven has stated. Your trying to state things that he did not write.

Secondly, There was some good benefits to the Crusades. Two that come to mind are: (1) Moslem aggression was checked in the west. (2) The crusades exposed the corrupt religionists of Romanism - and that became even more evident during the Crusades, and this aided the way for the approaching revolt against the Roman Catholic church and Papalism after 1280 A.D. and on down to the Reformation.

[heaven]

All the muslims ever talk about is the crusades, the history is written for all to see; So is
the muslim invasion of Europe, to which the crusades were a response.

What about more recent history, does this history prove that somehow Islam has somehow reconstructed itself into being a desirable role model for all peoples wanting
to live in peace, and prosperity in right relationship with God and fellow man and that
Islam has proved itself no longer bigoted and that it accepts the jews and israel and
christian and westerners, and that great thinkers and laws have emerged from Islam
that truly inspire mankind and improve man's lot......I think not.

[Rocky]

Dear Jin-Roh:

I have asked in this thread the opinion of others. However, when I read in the Koran - the teachings that promote violence and advocate the spread of Islam by force, I find it nearly impossible to look upon Islam as the so-called, "Religion of Peace" that many try to claim it to be.

Example of some verses from the Koran:

"Allah is an enemy to infidels" (2:92).

"Fight for the cause of Allah" (2:245).

"Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than believers: whoso shall do this has nothing to hope from Allah" (3:27).

"Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies" (4:102).

"O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any of you takes them for his friends, he surely is one of them" (5:56)!

"Fight then against them until strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's" (8:40).

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth" (9:29).

And there are other verses in the Koran that seem to indicate that Islam is not a religion of peace. (Unless you mean in the Hitler sense - give me a piece of this country and a piece of that one - until all the world is Muslim!)----------------------
I just wanted to let Jude3b know that the verses he gave are incorrect, and that I saw more people posting false information. Please make sure the information your are postingis correct, so that there are no misunderstandings.
Thank-You

[Rocky]

Alot of people think that Islam is not a peaceful religion, and are trying to make is seem that Islam is anything but peaceful.
First of all I want to say that Islam (Submission) is also a word that share the same root of the Arabic word Salaam meaning peace!

However, there are times, in certain circumstances, when Islam (Submission) tolerates, permits and sometimes even accepts the practise of war. Islam strongly emphasizes the ideas of justice, freedom and opposition to oppression. There is another condition: fighting for self-defense. War is tolerated in these conditions, but if there is a possibility to avoid war, then this alternative, as long as it is reasonable, must be taken.

Islam condemns barbaric killing of any human being. During military activities, the killing must not include civilians, provided they do not attack or provoke or share directly in the war. . The enemies, even when at war, must be treated justly. If victory is achieved in any war for justice, then there is to be no oppression, enslavement or injustice to the enemy or people. Nor must there be control over source of wealth of the nation or people or colonial regimes. The division of people, putting them one against the other is also forbidden. Justice and freedom must be established. The cooperation and acceptance of other cultures and peoples is compulsory too.

In Brief; the meaning the media gives to this word (Jihad) is false. This word does not mean a holy war, for there is nothing holy about a war in Islam (submission). There are times when war is tolerated, permitted and even, in some case, to a point accepted, but never considered holy. Islam (Submission) is a religion of peace, no matter what certain media or deranged individuals say or claim. Islam (Submission) revolves around the concept of peace.
"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."(8:61).

This is proof that islam is a peaceful religion. If any one would like to know where I got the information from, then they can go to http://www.submission.org/muhammed/jihad.html.

Thank-You

[Augustine2004]

Rocky, is Osama BL a true muslim? If so, how do you explain his mission? If he is not a true muslim, please explain why you think so.

[Krusader]

We should remember that the Quran of Islam is interpreted by the Hadith, or Tradition. It's in the tradition that we find the most absurd teachings. For instance, it is plainly stated that a Muslim can kill a Christian and the death penalty is waived, since a Muslim's blood is of more value than that of a Christian's, a Jew's or an infidels.

For this reason, Muslims can cut off the heads of "unbelievers" with impunity!

[Rocky]

Rocky, is Osama BL a true muslim? If so, how do you explain his mission? If he is not a true muslim, please explain why you think so.

Augustine2004,
I'm not sure what "mission" you are referring to. Please explain it with a little more detail, and I'll get back to you.
Thank-you

[Rocky]

We should remember that the Quran of Islam is interpreted by the Hadith, or Tradition. It's in the tradition that we find the most absurd teachings. For instance, it is plainly stated that a Muslim can kill a Christian and the death penalty is waived, since a Muslim's blood is of more value than that of a Christian's, a Jew's or an infidels.

For this reason, Muslims can cut off the heads of "unbelievers" with impunity!
Crusader,
Can I ask where you got the information that a muslim can kill a christian and the death penalty is waived, since a muslim's blood is of more value than that of a christian's, jew's or an infidels. Also, You said that for this reason muslims can cut off the heads of "unbelievers" with impunity. You are making it sound like Islam is a religion where muslims can kill any unbeliever when ever. I just want to let you know that Islam is a religion of peace. I don't think that it makes any sense for any muslim to harm a non-believer for no reason at all. I would appreciate it if you told me where you got the information from. Thsnk-You

[Rocky]

All the muslims ever talk about is the crusades, the history is written for all to see; So is
the muslim invasion of Europe, to which the crusades were a response.

What about more recent history, does this history prove that somehow Islam has somehow reconstructed itself into being a desirable role model for all peoples wanting
to live in peace, and prosperity in right relationship with God and fellow man and that
Islam has proved itself no longer bigoted and that it accepts the jews and israel and
christian and westerners, and that great thinkers and laws have emerged from Islam
that truly inspire mankind and improve man's lot......I think not.
Heaven,
Islam was never biogated, therefore it does need to prove itself to no longer be biogated. Islam tolerates jews, christians, and others. It tells us to live in peace with them. I'm going to tell you of something that happened with the Prophet (pbuh) and his neighbour.

The prophet Mohammed (pbuh's) neighbour was a jew, and his neighbour didn't treated the prophet (pbuh) in the best way. He used to dump garbage in his yard, and he used to do other things. Oneday, the prophet (pbuh) noticed that the man just wasn't doing anything to him. The prophet (pbuh) asked around, and found out that the man was sick. The prophet (pbuh) along with his Companions went to visit him. The man was very shocked to see the prophet (pbuh) there. He asked him why he came to visit him when all he had ever done was been trouble. The prophet (pbuh) told him that even though he did that, he was still his neighbour, and a muslim was suppossed to be nice to his neighbour at all times. The man converted to islam, and became a muslim. This story shows that islam tolerates all other religions, and tells us to live in peace with them.

Next you said asked if Islam has been a desirable role model for people to follow, I want to say that if Islam didn't portray a good image to others, it wouldn't be the fastest growing religion in the world. That's something to think about.

[Krusader]

Crusader,
Can I ask where you got the information that a muslim can kill a christian and the death penalty is waived, since a muslim's blood is of more value than that of a christian's, jew's or an infidels. Also, You said that for this reason muslims can cut off the heads of "unbelievers" with impunity. You are making it sound like Islam is a religion where muslims can kill any unbeliever when ever. I just want to let you know that Islam is a religion of peace. I don't think that it makes any sense for any muslim to harm a non-believer for no reason at all. I would appreciate it if you told me where you got the information from. Thsnk-You
Regarding your request for the reference:

Ibn Timiyya, Vol. 14, states as follows:

"Nothing in the law of Muhammad states that the blood of the disbeliever is equal to the blood of the Muslim because faith is necessary for equality. The people of the covenant (Jews or Christians) do not believe in Muhammad and Islam, thus their blood and the Muslim's blood cannot be equal. These are distinctive texts which indicate that a Muslim in not to be put to death for (murdering) one of the people of the convenant or an unbeliever, but a free Muslim must be killed for a free Muslim, regardless of the race," Vol. 14, pg. 85

All great Muslim scholars agree on this point: Ibn Timiyya, Ibn Hazm, Al-Shafii, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Al-Jalalan, Al-Bukhari.

Islam is a cult of deathl.

[Augustine2004]

Rocky, I am not sure what OBL's mission is; but whether he is a true Muslim or not, I am sure he, Ibn Timiyya, and others disagree with you. And that's bad enough for me.

[Rocky]

huh?

[Rocky]

Regarding your request for the reference:

Ibn Timiyya, Vol. 14, states as follows:

"Nothing in the law of Muhammad states that the blood of the disbeliever is equal to the blood of the Muslim because faith is necessary for equality. The people of the covenant (Jews or Christians) do not believe in Muhammad and Islam, thus their blood and the Muslim's blood cannot be equal. These are distinctive texts which indicate that a Muslim in not to be put to death for (murdering) one of the people of the convenant or an unbeliever, but a free Muslim must be killed for a free Muslim, regardless of the race," Vol. 14, pg. 85

All great Muslim scholars agree on this point: Ibn Timiyya, Ibn Hazm, Al-Shafii, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Al-Jalalan, Al-Bukhari.

Islam is a cult of deathl.
okay...thank-you

[bhukkadakota]

But dont the muslims still get punished? We dont have the death penalty in australia, so no one will die if they commit murder, does that mean australia is also a cult of death?

[brahmabull]

There has been a lot of talk, but I still haven't seen any apologetics for the above that I quoted, or other verses like this:
As for the captives, the amir has the choice of taking the most beneficial action of four possibilities: the first to put them to death by cutting their necks; the second, to enslave them and apply the laws of slavery regarding their sale and manumission; the third, to ransom them in exchange for goods or prisoners; and fourth, to show favor to them and pardon them. Allah, may he be exalted, says, 'When you encounter those who deny then strike necks' (Qur'an sura 47, verse 4)”....Abu’l-Hasan al-Mawardi, al-Ahkam as-Sultaniyyah.
I am still waiting for somebody that knows what they are talking about to explain these clear rules for treatment of the infidel.

After that, the treatment of women should probably be discussed, because they are not to be treated any better under Islam.

[heaven]

Islam is not the fastest growing religion at this time , christianity is. Any growth in Islam
comes from huge families and forced conversion. All the terrorists are muslim, and Islam
is busy in the Darfur murdering 53,000 black christians, attacking chaldean christians in
Iraq, committed terrible atrocities in Lebanon against the christians and a muslim
murdered a decendant on Van Gogh in Holland for condemning Islamic treatment of
women, Ayatollah in Iran has declared war on the US, the Palestinians want to murder
every last Israeli in Israel, every hot spot in the world involves Islam today.

[Jude3b]

Islam is not the fastest growing religion at this time , christianity is. Any growth in Islam
comes from huge families and forced conversion. All the terrorists are muslim, and Islam
is busy in the Darfur murdering 53,000 black christians, attacking chaldean christians in
Iraq, committed terrible atrocities in Lebanon against the christians and a muslim
murdered a decendant on Van Gogh in Holland for condemning Islamic treatment of
women, Ayatollah in Iran has declared war on the US, the Palestinians want to murder
every last Israeli in Israel, every hot spot in the world involves Islam today.

Well stated, and I would like to add - the Southern Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, all across Africa. It sure is hard to stay alive (physically speaking) - if you openly worship Christ in much of the World. You have to watch out - it seems the "religion of peace" is out to kill off every Christian they can find.