Is the watchtower society a false prophet?

[Sparko]

excerpts from http://www.jwfiles.com/outline.htm

Awake, 10/8/1968, pg23..."those in times past who predicted an “end of the world”, even announcing a specific date...they were guilty of false prophesying."

scan click to enlarge:
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So according to their own rules, the Watchtower Society is a false prophet, since they have predicted the end of the world many times with specific dates that did not come to pass.

1. Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 203 He merely uses his "servant" class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
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2. The Time is at Hand, 1908, pg 101 ....the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev.16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914, with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.

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3. The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 398, 399, 485 ........the people who are the strength of Christendom shall be cut off in the brief but terribly eventful period beginning in 1918 A.D. A third part are “burned with fire in the mist of the city.” .....After 1918 the people supporting churchianity will cease to be its, supporters, be destroyed as adherents,...Also in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions...

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[barryrob]

excerpts from http://www.jwfiles.com/outline.htm

Awake, 10/8/1968, pg23..."those in times past who predicted an “end of the world”, even announcing a specific date...they were guilty of false prophesying."

scan click to enlarge:
[attachment=1]


So according to their own rules, the Watchtower Society is a false prophet, since they have predicted the end of the world many times with specific dates that did not come to pass.

1. Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 203 He merely uses his "servant" class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
[attachment=2]

2. The Time is at Hand, 1908, pg 101 ....the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev.16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914, with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.

[attachment=3]

3. The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 398, 399, 485 ........the people who are the strength of Christendom shall be cut off in the brief but terribly eventful period beginning in 1918 A.D. A third part are “burned with fire in the mist of the city.” .....After 1918 the people supporting churchianity will cease to be its, supporters, be destroyed as adherents,...Also in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions...

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Yes we know but then move to put matter right when we see that we are wrong, they call it learning.

Watchtower 1962 12/15 p. 762 We Need Jehovah’s Organization
The care of God’s organization today is not in the hands of men who are inspired by God. They can make mistakes as any imperfect man can. Even the apostle Peter, who unquestionably had God’s spirit, made mistakes. On one occasion he denied Jesus Christ. On another he had to be rebuked by Paul for "not walking straight according to the truth of the good news." (Gal. 2:14) God’s spirit inspired him to write Scripture, but it did not prevent him from being a free moral agent capable of making mistakes when he was not under inspiration. His mistake in the matter of applying Christian doctrine in his relationship with non-Jews does not argue that he did not have God’s spirit at all. The same is true today.

The men in Jehovah’s organization who prepare spiritual instruction for the Lord’s "sheep" diligently study the Scriptures to learn what God has put there for the instruction and guidance of his people. They make no claim of inspiration—only that they are Bible students. Since their comments on the Scriptures are not inspired, they can at times make mistakes. Does this make them false prophets? Not at all! A false prophet does not correct himself. He persists in proclaiming a wrong view even when he knows that it is wrong. But these students of God’s Word correct misunderstandings when they discover them. They are interested in the truth, not in self-justification. Their mistakes do not mean God’s spirit does not operate upon them; it does, just as it did upon Peter despite his mistakes.


AWAKE! 1993 3/22 Why So Many False Alarms?
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: "We have not the gift of prophecy." (January 1883, page 425) "Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit "does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." (May 15, 1947, page 157) "The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." (August 15, 1950, page 263) "The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)"—February 15, 1981, page 19.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Yes we know but then move to put matter right when we see that we are wrong, they call it learning. So after a false prophesy fails, then they say "oops" and say, "well we were wrong, I guess we just learned something."

YES, WE LEARNED THEY WERE FALSE PROPHETS.

Did you actually read the scans above? The watchtower said that people who set dates and that do not come to pass are false prophets. The bible says the same thing. But then the watchtower set a multitude of dates that did not come to pass, and each time they were wrong, what did they do? admit they were false prophets? No! They set new dates! 1925, 1975, ring any bells?



Watchtower 1962 12/15 p. 762 We Need Jehovah’s Organization
The care of God’s organization today is not in the hands of men who are inspired by God. They can make mistakes as any imperfect man can.
They make no claim of inspiration—only that they are Bible students. Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 203 He merely uses his "servant" class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
see the scan above.


Does this make them false prophets? Not at all! A false prophet does not correct himself. He persists in proclaiming a wrong view even when he knows that it is wrong. Gee just like the watchtower. And by the way, they did keep claiming they were right, right up till the date passed. And after that, did they say they were wrong? no, they said that people misinterpreted what they said.

This chronology is not of man, but of God. ***Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct....
Watchtower July 15, 1922



and a year after 1925?


Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst assunder, they were inclined to throw away everything.
Watchtower - August 1, 1926 pg. 232


***Looks like they claimed divine inspiration to me.


AWAKE! 1993 3/22 Why So Many False Alarms?
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: "We have not the gift of prophecy." (January 1883, page 425) "Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." (December 15, 1896, page 306) But the watchtower does claim to be a prophet of God and Jehovah's very mouthpiece.





The Nations shall know 1971, pg 58-62,....as a mouthpiece and active agent...... commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah...
Wt,3/15/1972, pg 189 ....commission to speak as a “prophet” in His name....
Wt,9/1/1979, pg 29,...those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name......back up their message by quoting the words, “This is what Jehovah has said.”

Zion’s Wt, 9/15/1895, pg 1867, reprint,.....as God’s mouthpiece in.....
Zion’s Wt, 7/15/1906, pg 382, reprint,.....the truths I present, as God’s mouthpiece.....
Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 203 He merely uses his "servant" class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 205 Jehovah speaks to us through his Son....He has appointed his "faithful and wise servant", who is his visible mouthpiece...These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals...
Informant(KM), 1/1956, pg 1, ..And how does he speak? Through his appointed channel of communication- his collective congregation of anointed ones...the Watchtower...to dispense Jehovah's communications.
Wt, 6/15/1957, pg 370 identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day......respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is his provision.
Wt, 1/15/1959, pg 40, 41 ....Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his word in their mouths.
Wt, 7/15/1960, pg 439,...collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth.....
Wt, 9/1/1991, pg 19,.....faithful and discreet slave has also been called God’s channel of communication,...
Wt, 2/1/1957, pg 79, 80, God interprets and teaches, through Christ the Chief Servant, who in turn uses the discreet slave as the visible channel, the viable theocratic organization...
Holy Spirit 1976, pg 175, 176 He put his word in the mouth of his chosen people ....He has put his word, his message of the hour, into the mouth of the spiritual remnant.
Wt, 10/15/1980, pg 17 God gives his humble servants special knowledge that others do not have... having advance knowledge from Jehovah, his servants are equipped .....

[barryrob]

Being as the writers of the Watchtower etc. are NOT inspired of God, which would make them infallible, so as this is NOT the case (as in my post from the WT & Awake) the following is worth taking note of:-

WT 1994 9/15 10-11 - Make Public Declaration to Jehovah's Name



The Role of the Prophets
4 Jehovah’s prophets were privileged to proclaim his message publicly. The Hebrew term for "prophet" (na·vi´') has an uncertain etymology, but its use in the Bible indicates that true prophets were spokesmen for Jehovah, men of God with inspired messages. The Greek word rendered "prophet" (pro·phe'tes) literally means "a speaker out," to say something "in front of" or "before" someone. A prophet is one who proclaims messages attributed to a divine source. Often, but not always, God’s true prophets predicted future events.

5 Regarding the striking role of the prophets in God’s arrangement, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia states: "Sometimes their advice was asked . . . But much more frequently they felt themselves inwardly moved to address the people without their advice having been asked, and they were not afraid to stand forward in places where their appearance, perhaps, produced indignation and terror." (Volume VIII, page 640) ...."

In the following we can see that "Prophet" and related matters, does not always mean a person that fortell future events, is not a new idea but a very old one nor is it one exclusive to the Watchtower but it is founded 1st on the Biblical and non-Biblical use of language and is well supported by various Greek scholars, thus not originated with us.

At 1 Cor. 12:27-29 we read:-
"Now YOU are Christ’s body, and members individually. And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? . . .."

"Not all are prophets", so it would seem that Jehovah God used some of the 1st century congregation members in the capacity as foretellers, but God still used the non-prophets or non-fortellers (if I can use that phrase(s)) members of the Christian congregations as his channel to tell others about the Good News of Jesus Christ, The Kingdom etc.

It seems to me that the lynch pin to this issue is the use and understanding of the word "prophet" IN THE 1ST CENTURY and before , as it had a more faceted meaning than that of latter times in 'Christian' circles. On top of that, during our 20th/21st century it is primarily applied to a person who foretells the future exclusively, whereas in the 1st century and before this was not the case. I think I have said this before but, we have to try and UNDERSTAND THE scriptures with the eyes and mind of persons that live at THAT TIME ACCORDING TO THE CULTURE AND CUSTOMS ETC. OF THEIR DAY, NOT OURS! It would seem that the word "profhthV"* had/has the emphasis on forthtelling* not on foretelling or to quote from the 'Lexicon to the Old and New Testaments' Ed. by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D in 'The Hebrew-Greek Study Bible', AMG Pub. page 172:-

"A prophet prophesies, but one who prophesies is not necessarily a prophet"**.

*or "forth" and "to speak" or "one who speaks forth openly."-'Vine's Expos. Dic. of Bi. Words' pp. 492-3

*Note: The Hebrew word translated by the into the word "prophet" is "nabi" which has the same basic meaning as the Greek "profhthV" which is "one who speaks for another, or "his mouth." (Vine's Expos. Dic. of Bi. Words' pp. 190) which obviously includes telling of future events but not exclusively that, e.g. Ex. 4:16, 7:1. Also see the foot note no Ex. 7:1 in the N.I.V. study Bible.

**N.W.T. Titus 1:12 "A certain one of them, their own prophet*, said: "Cre'tans are always liars, injurious wild beasts, unemployed gluttons.""

*Epimenides, a Cretan POET of the sixth cent. B.C.E.

I think it makes the point that how we today see the usage and meaning of ancient words is not how they where used or understood in or about the 1st century or before that time. My research shows me that "prophet" (and related words) have a much more extensive meaning than that which is common to us today. A prophet would seem to be a person of wisdom, an interpreter for the inspired oracle, a preacher of God's word or will (e.g. spokesman), a poet, and lastly a foreteller of events.

I think you will find that being as the Watchtower representative are NOT inspired men the term "prophet" falls into the category of "to speak" ot teach about God not to utter unbreakable details about future events.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

But barryrob,

I gave you actual quotes where they DID claim to be prophets and inspired, and were the very mouthpiece of Jehovah. I did not make those quotes up, and I can dig up actual scans for many of them.


So your giving me quotes to the contrary brings up a very important issue...

Are you saying they used to be inspired prophets, but are not anymore? or that they were lying then? or are lying now?

[barryrob]

But barryrob,

I gave you actual quotes where they DID claim to be prophets and inspired, and were the very mouthpiece of Jehovah. I did not make those quotes up, and I can dig up actual scans for many of them.


So your giving me quotes to the contrary brings up a very important issue...

Are you saying they used to be inspired prophets, but are not anymore? or that they were lying then? or are lying now?


If someone say that he is not inspired then one would asume he means what he says.

[Sparko]

But if they previously made bold claims that they WERE prophets and spoke for Jehovah as his mouthpiece (as I quoted above, then at another time denied it (as you quoted), that means that at one time or the other, they were lying. Which time were they lying?

And so, if can't you trust anything that they said previously, how can you trust what they say now?

[barryrob]

But if they previously made bold claims that they WERE prophets and spoke for Jehovah as his mouthpiece (as I quoted above, then at another time denied it (as you quoted), that means that at one time or the other, they were lying. Which time were they lying?

And so, if can't you trust anything that they said previously, how can you trust what they say now?

Because it now works.
Barryrob

[Sparko]

So they were a bunch of liars before, but now they are honest?

[barryrob]

So they were a bunch of liars before, but now they are honest?
The whole of Christianity is a learning curve and we learn all the time and along the way make mistakes such as the ones you have pointed out. But suerly the more important thing is to admit them, as we have done, correct the matter by going back to the scriptures to see how and why we where wrong. Yes we put up our hands to errors but is that all so what Christians should do even if it leaves Egg On Face and deserveing for running ahead of the sctiptures. No excuse but a true fact.

If we over view the whole GNT we see individual Christians or whole Congregationms receving correction admitdly for differing reasons but then we live in differant times so the things focused on differ but ones again being able to admit, put right if can do, learn, move on better informed and humbled by not listening to God's Son:-

Matthew 24:36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 13:32-33 "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Keep looking, keep awake, for YOU do not know when the appointed time is.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

The whole of Christianity is a learning curve and we learn all the time and along the way make mistakes such as the ones you have pointed out. But suerly the more important thing is to admit them, as we have done, correct the matter by going back to the scriptures to see how and why we where wrong. Yes we put up our hands to errors but is that all so what Christians should do even if it leaves Egg On Face and deserveing for running ahead of the sctiptures. No excuse but a true fact.
Barryrob,

Making a mistake and correcting it is one thing. That would be like Peter when he insisted Gentiles should get circumcized and Paul correcting him. Peter admitted his mistake and everyone went on.

But NOWHERE in the bible do you see one of God's people claiming to be a prophet of God, and not having one of their predictions come true, and then saying "oops. I never claimed to be inspired" and go on as if nothing was wrong - If one did that, he would have been labelled a false prophet.

And the watchtower did claim to be God's mouthpiece and prophet! So if they claimed this and made predictions and they did not come to pass, then they are false prophets! There is not excusing it and saying "oops, we made a mistake" - The bible tells you NOT to TRUST them anymore. You are not to give them more chances.

I am going on memory here, but I believe if you look at the watchtower covers from the 70's and earlier, you will see something in the masthead that says something to the effect of the watchtower speaks for Jehovah, or is Jehovah's voice. If I can find my sources on this I will post it later. And do a search on your watchtower files on "jeremiah class" - the watchtower claimes to be a jeremiah (prophet) class - that means they consider themselves prophets of Jehovah.


When talking about the end of the world in 1925 (after they should have already learned their lesson when 1914 did not happen to be the end of the world) they said this:

This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct....
Watchtower July 15, 1922

Right there you have them speaking as divinely inspired. They claim that the date was divinely corroborated and from God himself. That is speaking in Jehovah's name and claiming to be inspired. They are claiming to be God's Prophet. And they Prophesyed.

But it failed to happen.

That makes them false prophets.

What does the bible say about false prophets?

Deut 18:20
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Jeremiah 14:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+14:14&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries [ 14:14 Or [ visions, worthless divinations ] ] and the delusions of their own minds.

Jeremiah 23:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+23:16&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EZEK+13:9&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD .

Matthew 7:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+7:15&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [Jesus' words]

So no. you don't give false prophets second chances. You don't let them change their story and tell you "we made a mistake" - you denounce them and if this was the old testament, you would have them put to death. That is how much God detests false prophets.

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

Making a mistake and correcting it is one thing. That would be like Peter when he insisted Gentiles should get circumcized and Paul correcting him. Peter admitted his mistake and everyone went on.

But NOWHERE in the bible do you see one of God's people claiming to be a prophet of God, and not having one of their predictions come true, and then saying "oops. I never claimed to be inspired" and go on as if nothing was wrong - If one did that, he would have been labelled a false prophet.

And the watchtower did claim to be God's mouthpiece and prophet! So if they claimed this and made predictions and they did not come to pass, then they are false prophets! There is not excusing it and saying "oops, we made a mistake" - The bible tells you NOT to TRUST them anymore. You are not to give them more chances.

I am going on memory here, but I believe if you look at the watchtower covers from the 70's and earlier, you will see something in the masthead that says something to the effect of the watchtower speaks for Jehovah, or is Jehovah's voice. If I can find my sources on this I will post it later. And do a search on your watchtower files on "jeremiah class" - the watchtower claimes to be a jeremiah (prophet) class - that means they consider themselves prophets of Jehovah.


When talking about the end of the world in 1925 (after they should have already learned their lesson when 1914 did not happen to be the end of the world) they said this:

This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct....
Watchtower July 15, 1922

Right there you have them speaking as divinely inspired. They claim that the date was divinely corroborated and from God himself. That is speaking in Jehovah's name and claiming to be inspired. They are claiming to be God's Prophet. And they Prophesyed.




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Deut 18:20

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But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." </P>21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.</P>
Jeremiah 14:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+14:14&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries [ 14:14 Or [ visions, worthless divinations ] ] and the delusions of their own minds.

Jeremiah 23:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+23:16&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EZEK+13:9&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD .

Matthew 7:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+7:15&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [Jesus' words]



So no. you don't give false prophets second chances. You don't let them change their story and tell you "we made a mistake" - you denounce them and if this was the old testament, you would have them put to death. That is how much God detests false prophets.
Hi John Sparks
Here is a correction a false prophet is a false prophet who remains in that course, NOT one who is shown to be wrong and is prepared to change, as an example read the account of Baalam.

Today are no longer under the Law of Moses but under the Law of Christ:-

James 2:8 If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: "You must love your neighbor as yourself," YOU are doing quite well.

As you show in O.T. texts we can draw important lessons from them, but the are overshadowed but the Words of Jesus Christ, which you quote only in part:-

Matthew 7:15-20 "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

So Jesus goes on to say:-

"by their fruits YOU will recognize them."

So what fruits have been seen. As you point out some of the things said did not turn out to be accurate so what was done, corrections where made, so how would The Christ act:-

Matthew 18:21-22 Then Peter came up and said to him: "Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him: "I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times.

1 John 1:8-9 If we make the statement: "We have no sin," we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So my brothers have openly admitted their errors due to impetuous conclusions in the past of which they repented and showed as much but saying so, this would be "fine fruits" (see my others posts).



Ezekiel 18:31 Throw off from yourselves all YOUR transgressions in which YOU have transgressed and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit, for why should YOU die, O house of Israel?’

Matthew 3:8 So then produce fruit that befits repentance; [righting the wrong etc.]

2 Corinthians 7:11 For, look! this very thing, YOUR being saddened in a godly way, what a great earnestness it produced in YOU, yes, clearing of yourselves, yes, indignation, yes, fear, yes, longing, yes, zeal, yes, righting of the wrong! In every respect YOU demonstrated yourselves to be chaste in this matter.



But you go against the word of Christ by saying that he will not forgive, in this you are wrong and going against the Love and Mercy of Christ in the way he treats repentant wrong doers.

You say according to Christ would not forgive and man who says something false and then does what can be done to truly put matter right he will not be forgiven, that is not the Christian way.

Hebrews 10:10 By the said "will" we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

1 John 2:1-2 And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.

Thus as the Brother repented and showed so by publicly admitting their wrong, so as The Bible say, if Christians repent they will be forgiven as long as they continue ion the Christian way. What you state "So no. you don't give false prophets second chances" is not the Christian way (see 77 X) and not true to the way Christ as Head of the Christian Congregation acts.

We can add also as at 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 "Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.

Here we see they the Bible showed the "prophesying" was not going to continue down to our days:-

Watchtower 1997 3/15 p. 6 Why Miracles Alone Do Not Build Faith

Among the miraculous gifts of the spirit was the ability to prophesy. When unbelievers observed this miracle, some were moved to worship Jehovah, declaring: "God is really among you." (1 Corinthians 14:22-25) However, Jehovah God did not intend that miracles be a permanent feature of Christian worship. Accordingly, the apostle Paul wrote: "Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease." (1 Corinthians 13:8) These gifts evidently ceased with the death of the apostles and those who had received such gifts by means of them.

So Jehovah's Witnesses have corrected matters in accordance with Scripture, from their wrong views, so according to Jesus, and not what you say, Jesus Christ will still use them as they obey his "Law."

Barryrob

[Sparko]

You still are not seeing it Barryrob,

I never said that you should not forgive somone who makes a mistake. But prophesying in the name of God and then that prophesy failing is not a mistake. It is a sign of a false prophet.

1. the watchtower never admitted they were "wrong" until after the prophesy failed. Name one false prophet that would continue to say they were right after their prophesy failed. Of course they would then say they were mistaken and they were sorry. And then continue to do it again and again. Just like the watchtower did.

2. They predicted the end of the world in 1914. It failed. oops! then in 1925. it failed. oops! then in 1975. It failed. oops!

So, no, they did not learn their lesson and change. they kept on doing it.

Let me ask you this. If they start doing it again, predicting a date, will you then see that they are false prophets? Did you know they are starting to lead up to predicting that 2034 will be the end? 120 years from 1914, based on Noah's timing. They have been too smart to come right out and predict the date as definite, but they seem to be working up to it. http://www.jwfiles.com/2034.htm

It should not even come to that, Barryrob, because you should be able to see from their past record that they are not to be trusted. If they were wrong about all that, don't you even have the least doubt that they are wrong about their other teachings?


Yes, they do claim they are not inspired, but then they also do claim to speak for Jehovah and therefore are inspired. They say they are not prophets, and also say they are prophets. They speak out of both sides of their mouth. They want to be your authority, to speak for Jehovah to you, but not have to be held responsible for when they are shown to be false.

Here are some more quotes where they claim to speak for Jehovah and be prophets in the class of Jeremiah and inspired.

*** w79 9/1 p. 29 The Royal “Shepherd” of Bible Prophecy ***

Unlike the clergy class, those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name……True, the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, “This is what Jehovah has said.”

*** w79 11/1 p. 25 Divine Judgment Against the False Prophets of Christendom ***

. Whom, then, did Jehovah send and who are the ones that speak in his name, Christendom’s clergy who prophesy oppositely, or the Jeremiah class of today? Future events will identify the truthtellers.

*** w56 8/1 p. 463 Jehovah’s Message Against Gog of Magog ***

As Ezekiel was merely the spokesman used by God, so also are those today who are privileged to speak in the name of Jehovah as his message-bearing witnesses.

*** kj chap. 4 p. 66 Commissioned to Speak in the Divine Name ***

24 Why, though, are all these facts of history brought to our attention? It is to show the fulfillment of prophecy. Jehovah has found and commissioned his modern-day “Ezekiel.” It is a composite Ezekiel. It is composed of those dedicated, baptized proclaimers of God’s kingdom, who have been anointed with His spirit for their work. (Isaiah 61:1-3) It is manifest that in the year 1919 the invisible heavenly organization of Jehovah, like the celestial chariot seen in Ezekiel’s vision, rolled up and stopped, not before Christendom’s advocates of the League of Nations, but before the anointed proclaimers of the heavenly kingdom of God in the hands of Jesus Christ. From atop this celestial chariotlike organization Jehovah commissioned this dedicated, baptized, anointed class of servants to speak to all the nations in His name. Thus, like Ezekiel, they became Jehovah’s witnesses.

*** w55 5/15 p. 305 Jehovah’s Channel of Communication ***

. Thus Jehovah’s earthly channel of communication is identified. The earthly channel is either a prophet or a collective prophetlike organization.

*** w55 5/15 p. 314 Christian Channel of Communication ***

20 What of Jehovah’s Christian channel of communication today? Which of the hundreds of sects and denominations of those who claim to be Christian is Jehovah’s spokesman today in the earth as his divinely appointed and organized channel of communication? ……Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses.—1 John

*** w56 8/1 p. 467 Delivering Satan’s Death Notice ***

AS THE previous article stated, Jehovah’s witnesses, of all people, are the ones commissioned by God to deliver his special message just prior to this world’s end. The message is one of doom directed against Gog of Magog, that is, Satan the Devil, and against his allies. And there are very good reasons why Jehovah God in these “last days” passed over all others and chose what at the time was a small and obscure group of people to speak in his name and by his authority as his witnesses. Whom else can God trust to speak for him?

*** w56 1/1 p. 32 Announcements ***
What a privilege to be serving with Jehovah’s channel of communication and to have the joy and pleasure of inviting others to receive the water of life!

*** w57 6/15 p. 370 Overseers of Jehovah’s People ***

7 Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. ……..It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

*** w58 2/1 p. 79 Cultivate a Good Mental Disposition

We must always remember that we learn the truth from Jehovah’s channel of communication, the “faithful and discreet slave” class. (Matt. 24:45-47) We receive of his spirit by our continued association with his channel.
---

Thus the Watchtower Organization does in fact claim to be ‘divinely appointed,’ and to speak ‘in the name of Jehovah’ and ‘by His authority,” being ‘sent forth’ by Jehovah Himself, commissioned by God, acts as His modern day ‘prophet,’ is the modern day ‘Jeremiah,’ and the ‘sole channel of communication’ today for Jehovah to reveal His truths.


Please actually read these and think about this. Pray about it, Barryrob and don't automatically do a knee-jerk reaction to defend the JW position. I pray for you in Jesus' name, that you will see the truth.

[barryrob]

You still are not seeing it Barryrob,

I never said that you should not forgive somone who makes a mistake. But prophesying in the name of God and then that prophesy failing is not a mistake. It is a sign of a false prophet.

1. the watchtower never admitted they were "wrong" until after the prophesy failed. Name one false prophet that would continue to say they were right after their prophesy failed. Of course they would then say they were mistaken and they were sorry. And then continue to do it again and again. Just like the watchtower did.

2. They predicted the end of the world in 1914. It failed. oops! then in 1925. it failed. oops! then in 1975. It failed. oops!

So, no, they did not learn their lesson and change. they kept on doing it.

Let me ask you this. If they start doing it again, predicting a date, will you then see that they are false prophets? Did you know they are starting to lead up to predicting that 2034 will be the end? 120 years from 1914, based on Noah's timing. They have been too smart to come right out and predict the date as definite, but they seem to be working up to it. http://www.jwfiles.com/2034.htm

It should not even come to that, Barryrob, because you should be able to see from their past record that they are not to be trusted. If they were wrong about all that, don't you even have the least doubt that they are wrong about their other teachings?


Yes, they do claim they are not inspired, but then they also do claim to speak for Jehovah and therefore are inspired. They say they are not prophets, and also say they are prophets. They speak out of both sides of their mouth. They want to be your authority, to speak for Jehovah to you, but not have to be held responsible for when they are shown to be false.

Here are some more quotes where they claim to speak for Jehovah and be prophets in the class of Jeremiah and inspired.

*** w79 9/1 p. 29 The Royal “Shepherd” of Bible Prophecy ***

Unlike the clergy class, those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name……True, the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, “This is what Jehovah has said.”

*** w79 11/1 p. 25 Divine Judgment Against the False Prophets of Christendom ***

. Whom, then, did Jehovah send and who are the ones that speak in his name, Christendom’s clergy who prophesy oppositely, or the Jeremiah class of today? Future events will identify the truthtellers.

*** w56 8/1 p. 463 Jehovah’s Message Against Gog of Magog ***

As Ezekiel was merely the spokesman used by God, so also are those today who are privileged to speak in the name of Jehovah as his message-bearing witnesses.

*** kj chap. 4 p. 66 Commissioned to Speak in the Divine Name ***

24 Why, though, are all these facts of history brought to our attention? It is to show the fulfillment of prophecy. Jehovah has found and commissioned his modern-day “Ezekiel.” It is a composite Ezekiel. It is composed of those dedicated, baptized proclaimers of God’s kingdom, who have been anointed with His spirit for their work. (Isaiah 61:1-3) It is manifest that in the year 1919 the invisible heavenly organization of Jehovah, like the celestial chariot seen in Ezekiel’s vision, rolled up and stopped, not before Christendom’s advocates of the League of Nations, but before the anointed proclaimers of the heavenly kingdom of God in the hands of Jesus Christ. From atop this celestial chariotlike organization Jehovah commissioned this dedicated, baptized, anointed class of servants to speak to all the nations in His name. Thus, like Ezekiel, they became Jehovah’s witnesses.

*** w55 5/15 p. 305 Jehovah’s Channel of Communication ***

. Thus Jehovah’s earthly channel of communication is identified. The earthly channel is either a prophet or a collective prophetlike organization.

*** w55 5/15 p. 314 Christian Channel of Communication ***

20 What of Jehovah’s Christian channel of communication today? Which of the hundreds of sects and denominations of those who claim to be Christian is Jehovah’s spokesman today in the earth as his divinely appointed and organized channel of communication? ……Only the remnant of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses.—1 John

*** w56 8/1 p. 467 Delivering Satan’s Death Notice ***

AS THE previous article stated, Jehovah’s witnesses, of all people, are the ones commissioned by God to deliver his special message just prior to this world’s end. The message is one of doom directed against Gog of Magog, that is, Satan the Devil, and against his allies. And there are very good reasons why Jehovah God in these “last days” passed over all others and chose what at the time was a small and obscure group of people to speak in his name and by his authority as his witnesses. Whom else can God trust to speak for him?

*** w56 1/1 p. 32 Announcements ***
What a privilege to be serving with Jehovah’s channel of communication and to have the joy and pleasure of inviting others to receive the water of life!

*** w57 6/15 p. 370 Overseers of Jehovah’s People ***

7 Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. ……..It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

*** w58 2/1 p. 79 Cultivate a Good Mental Disposition

We must always remember that we learn the truth from Jehovah’s channel of communication, the “faithful and discreet slave” class. (Matt. 24:45-47) We receive of his spirit by our continued association with his channel.
---

Thus the Watchtower Organization does in fact claim to be ‘divinely appointed,’ and to speak ‘in the name of Jehovah’ and ‘by His authority,” being ‘sent forth’ by Jehovah Himself, commissioned by God, acts as His modern day ‘prophet,’ is the modern day ‘Jeremiah,’ and the ‘sole channel of communication’ today for Jehovah to reveal His truths.


Please actually read these and think about this. Pray about it, Barryrob and don't automatically do a knee-jerk reaction to defend the JW position. I pray for you in Jesus' name, that you will see the truth.







The oldest quote you use is 1955 (this will do here) but the following in older and make my point:-



WATCHTOWER 1950 8/15 p. 263 Name and Purpose of The Watchtower



“The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures. Its purpose is to aid others to know Jehovah and his purposes toward mankind, and to announce Christ’s established kingdom as our only hope.”





Here we say the once again they my brothers STATE THE THEY ARE NOT INSPIRED, thus they do not claim infallibility when speaking of future events but invites others to examine the Bible against what they say, in some case they where wrong, thus showing that they cannot be inspired “prophets” as in O.T. times or as in the book of Acts etc. as logic demands.



So does this mean that God does not use them/us as his channel for communicating with mankind? As you show in the above we claim he does.



When is a prophet not a Prophet* when he teaches?:-



A) “Easton's Bible Dictionary

The "prophet" proclaimed the message given to him, as the "seer" beheld the vision of God. (See Num_12:6,8 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Num+12:6,8).) Thus a prophet was a spokesman for God; he spake in God's name and by his authority (Ex_7:1 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Ex+7:1)). He is the mouth by which God speaks to men (Jer_1:9 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Jer+1:9); Isaiah_51:16 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Isaiah+51:16)), and hence what the prophet says is not of man but of God (2_Pet_1:20,21 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?2+Pet+1:20,21); comp. Heb_3:7 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Heb+3:7); Acts_4:25 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Acts+4:25); Acts_28:25 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Acts+28:25)). Prophets were the immediate organs of God for the communication of his mind and will to men (Deut_18:18,19 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Deut+18:18,19)). The whole Word of God may in this general sense be spoken of as prophetic, inasmuch as it was written by men who received the revelation they communicated from God, no matter what its nature might be. The foretelling of future events was not a necessary but only an incidental part of the prophetic office. The great task assigned to the prophets whom God raised up among the people was "to correct moral and religious abuses, to proclaim the great moral and religious truths which are connected with the character of God, and which lie at the foundation of his government."”- http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/easton/get_defn.pl?num=3006 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/easton/get_defn.pl?num=3006)



“prophet n. (fem. prophetess)

1 teacher or interpreter of the supposed will of God.

2 a person who foretells events. b spokesman; advocate (prophet of the new order).

3 (the Prophet) Muhammad. [Greek prophetes spokesman].”-Oxford Dic.





It seems that you are trying to force the Watchtower in to a mould it does not belong! As in the above the Key roll of a Biblical “prophet” was to instruct the people (channel of communication), foretelling the future was not his main purpose. Here is where the Watchtower Society fits in. If you read the firs page of the Watchtower regarding it’s purpose you will see that it says nothing about foretelling the future for it’s existence.



What has shown me that the above it correct? Well when I look at the History of the Church I see a body (with the exception of some individuals) of politically motivated warmongers for instance the Churches involvements in The Great War and WWII and calling down blessing from it’s Trinitarian God on the mass murder and bloodshed it (not God) blessed, I even saw on film a padre blessing one of the plans the dropped the first Atomic Bombs on 1,000s of women and children in Japan (makes me sick to my stomach) Jehovah’s Witnesses did not get involved in this but condemned ALL sides as Satanic:-



Watchtower 1972 11/1 p. 650 Divine Rulership—Over Mankind at the Start

“This is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”—1 John 3:11, 12.

All this illustrates the serious consequences that follow from going against divine rulership. Do we have fratricide, the killing of brother by brother, today? No one can deny that we have it on a colossal scale, especially when world wars come along. Men wise in the wisdom of this modern world may say that Satan the Devil has nothing to do with this. But we have better information from authoritative sources rather than from these self-opinionated persons. Brother haters and brother murderers today originate from the same wicked one now as they did in the days of Cain and Abel, only there are more of them now than there were on earth in the first century of the human family on earth. Yes, and more than in the first century of Christianity, when the apostle John wrote the foregoing words about brother love and brother hate. The evidence is overwhelming, therefore, that mankind today is not just under human rulership but, unknown to itself, also under Satanic rulership. The increasing lack of brotherly love proves that mankind is not submitting itself to divine rulership. “God is love,” we read in 1 John 4:8, 16.



The above is just one example, but an important one to me. Now this is what I call truly Christian and Worship of “the one true God” of Peace under the guidance of his son Jesus and using human spokesmen real Christian Fruits e.g. true:-



Matthew 5:44 “However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU”



In all the Allied and Axis power my brother and sisters where imprisoned and killed for following the “Prince of Peace” when the Real Test Came, and this guidance was published by the WTBTS the men who you say are false. If all the nations had done as they said war would not happen on a worldwide scale or any size, and you call them false Christian. I personal think there is no comparison to Christendom when I see what my brothers have done, are doing and will do in the future and am I glad? I am!



These men show how to solve all our problems by using the scriptures. As I see it we have solved the problems that the world and the many faiths therein fail to do, we are by no means perfect but as God said to Noah:-



Genesis 6:9 Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God.





I live in England as see just what centuries of the Churches teachings have done to my neighbors, it has killed their faith, made them empathic towards God, confused their morals, supported the Godless philosophy of Evolution one of the Greatest apostatizes to be visited on this earth, made Jesus into a mythological figure as they teach one thing and do another, destroyed Faith in God’s Word The Bible by saying this or that bit is not really true, and it clergy are just covert politicians and world philosophers pandering to the liberal minded faithless persons of who the Bible say:-



Psalm 14:1 “The senseless one has said in his heart: “There is no Jehovah.” They have acted ruinously, they have acted detestably in [their] dealing. There is no one doing good.”



My 30 yrs as a Christian has shown me how really follow God and who do not!



Christian love

Barryrob

[Sparko]

The oldest quote you use is 1955 (this will do here) but the following in older and make my point:-
WATCHTOWER 1950 8/15 p. 263 Name and Purpose of The Watchtower

“The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures. Its purpose is to aid others to know Jehovah and his purposes toward mankind, and to announce Christ’s established kingdom as our only hope.” Yes Barryrob. I believe that they do claim NOT to be inspired in many places, and yet they DO claim to be inspired to speak for Jehovah in many other places (as I quoted above)

Therefore they are claiming two contradictory things. At least one of these is a lie. Either they are NOT inspired and do NOT speak for Jehovah (that is what INSPIRED means) and are lying when they say they are the voice of Jehovah. Or they are telling the truth that they are speaking for Jehovah and lying about not being inspired. Now the first one MAY be true, but the second one can not be true. Someone who speaks for Jehovah could never lie and claim not to be inspired.

Either way you look at it, they are lying. They are NOT the voice of Jehovah in any way. They have been proven false prophets in their predictions so you should NOT listen to them in their teachings. Its that simple.

Here we say the once again they my brothers STATE THE THEY ARE NOT INSPIRED, thus they do not claim infallibility when speaking of future events The bible's criteria for judging a false prophet is not if they claim infallability or not. It is if they claim to be speaking in the name of God and what they claim does not come to pass. The watchtower has done this over and over. I have shown this to you over and over, and you just close your eyes and repost another quote where they SAY they are not infallable or inspired. Right after I posted quotes where they claim they ARE speaking for Jehovah and their predictions were false.

So does this mean that God does not use them/us as his channel for communicating with mankind? As you show in the above we claim he does.
If they claim to speak for Jehovah, then what they claim must be true, otherwise they did not speak for Jehovah. They claimed the world would end in 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, and 1975 - and yet it did not. They are false prophets.



When is a prophet not a Prophet* when he teaches?:-



A) “Easton's Bible Dictionary

The "prophet" proclaimed the message given to him, as the "seer" beheld the vision of God. (See Num_12:6,8 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Num+12:6,8).) Thus a prophet was a spokesman for God; he spake in God's name and by his authority (Ex_7:1 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Ex+7:1)). He is the mouth by which God speaks to men (Jer_1:9 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Jer+1:9); Isaiah_51:16 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Isaiah+51:16)), and hence what the prophet says is not of man but of God (2_Pet_1:20,21 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?2+Pet+1:20,21); comp. Heb_3:7 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Heb+3:7); Acts_4:25 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Acts+4:25); Acts_28:25 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Acts+28:25)). Prophets were the immediate organs of God for the communication of his mind and will to men (Deut_18:18,19 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl?Deut+18:18,19)). The whole Word of God may in this general sense be spoken of as prophetic, inasmuch as it was written by men who received the revelation they communicated from God, no matter what its nature might be. The foretelling of future events was not a necessary but only an incidental part of the prophetic office. The great task assigned to the prophets whom God raised up among the people was "to correct moral and religious abuses, to proclaim the great moral and religious truths which are connected with the character of God, and which lie at the foundation of his government."”- http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/easton/get_defn.pl?num=3006 (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/easton/get_defn.pl?num=3006) Where does it say a prophet of God can be fallable and not inspired? It reinforced the idea that a prophet SPEAKS for God and therefore IS inspired. That is what inspired MEANS in the biblical sense. When the prophet claims to speak for God whether predicting the future or in teaching about God, it must be inspired and infallable or he is not a prophet. (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/easton/get_defn.pl?num=3006)





It seems that you are trying to force the Watchtower in to a mould it does not belong! As in the above the Key roll of a Biblical “prophet” was to instruct the people (channel of communication), foretelling the future was not his main purpose. Here is where the Watchtower Society fits in. If you read the firs page of the Watchtower regarding it’s purpose you will see that it says nothing about foretelling the future for it’s existence. And yet your definition of prophet says nothing about not being inspired. And the watchtower DID make future prophesies in Jehovah's name that failed. They are false prophets by ANY biblical definition.


What has shown me that the above it correct? Well when I look at the History of the Church I see a body (with the exception of some individuals) of politically motivated warmongers for instance the Churches involvements in The Great War and WWII and calling down blessing from it’s Trinitarian God on the mass murder and bloodshed it (not God) blessed, I even saw on film a padre blessing one of the plans the dropped the first Atomic Bombs on 1,000s of women and children in Japan (makes me sick to my stomach) Jehovah’s Witnesses did not get involved in this but condemned ALL sides as Satanic:- I don't like war either and yes some christian churches have done some horrendous things and if they made claim to be spokesmen for God and their predictions did not come to pass, then they were false prophets too. But to claim that because the church supports a war that it is satanic is not right either. Was it wrong to stop the Nazi's from taking over the world and killing all those Jews? No it was a just war. If you condemn war just because you think God does not condone bloodshed, then you have a problem with Jehovah in the Old Testament, where he sends his people to conquer whole cities, killing all men, women and children.






These men show how to solve all our problems by using the scriptures. As I see it we have solved the problems that the world and the many faiths therein fail to do, we are by no means perfect but as God said to Noah:- The problem is not with christians wanting peace and being peaceful. The problem is with evil men subjugating their fellow men and our job as Christians is to fight for true peace and to fight evil in the world. To allow evil free reign in the name of "pacificism" is to condone evil. If no one stepped up to stop Hitler, you would not be a Jehovah's Witness today, but either a Nazi, or dead.

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

I did move your post about war to a new thread. It was getting off the topic of false prophets. I hope you don't mind.

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

I did move your post about war to a new thread. It was getting off the topic of false prophets. I hope you don't mind.

Yes no porbs. Which thread, should be intresting?

I will come from another angle, let me collect my thoughts, it is just that the history of the churches in this, war (somthing close to my heart) etc. tells me that they are not God's servants. Back soon.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

The bible's criteria for judging a false prophet is not if they claim infallability or not. It is if they claim to be speaking in the name of God and what they claim does not come to pass.

If they claim to speak for Jehovah, then what they claim must be true, otherwise they did not speak for Jehovah. They claimed the world would end in 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, and 1975 - and yet it did not. They are false prophets.

Where does it say a prophet of God can be fallable and not inspired? It reinforced the idea that a prophet SPEAKS for God and therefore IS inspired. That is what inspired MEANS in the biblical sense. When the prophet claims to speak for God whether predicting the future or in teaching about God, it must be inspired and infallable or he is not a prophet.

And yet your definition of prophet says nothing about not being inspired. And the watchtower DID make future prophesies in Jehovah's name that failed. They are false prophets by ANY biblical definition.



Yes you have shown where we erred which my other posts explain. Let go back to what Jesus said would mark “false prophets”:-

Matthew 7:15-20 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

So what “fruits” of the Holy Spirit say for example:-

Galatians 5:22-23 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit& is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
*Holy Spirit.

What does the above show, how God’s Holy Spirit is used which to guide strengthens his servants to act etc. and this will show who does not or who does his will and who are true and who is false?

As regards T. Russell’s comments about the church being destroyed it my not of happened in a literal sence but spiritually they did fall and Christ rejected them when was installed as King in 1914 which was show by their actions against God’s “Prince of Peace” and king over the Earth buy fighting among themselves for power going against the Prophetic words at:-

Micah 4:3 "And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." A prophecy we fullfil.

You are still sticking to only one definition of “prophet” (someone who only foretells the future) which is an unbiblical stance.

“proph·et ( n.

A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.

2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.

A predictor; a soothsayer.
The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve. Used with the. See table at Bible (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Bible).
Prophet One of the prophets mentioned in the Bible, especially one believed to be the author of one of these books. Used with the.

Prophet Islam. Muhammad. Used with the.”-http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prophet



Note 2 and 3 are devoid of foretelling the future as Jehovah’s witnesses are not inspired we cannot predict the future, so to persist in that is to go down a blind allie.

So how can The Watchtower be Jehovah God’s channel?

Moses God’s prophet but did wrong but not rejected as God’s channel:-

Deut 34:10 But there has never yet risen up a prophet in Israel like Moses, . . .

Num 20:12-13 Later Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron: “Because YOU did not show faith in me to sanctify me before the eyes of the sons of Israel, therefore YOU will not bring this congregation into the land that I shall certainly give them.” 13 These are the waters of Mer´i·bah, because the sons of Israel quarreled with Jehovah, so that he was sanctified among them.

In the above one of the Greatest Biblical Prophets Moses did wrong but was still used until his death as God’s channel of communication.


Another example:-

2 Samuel 7:1-16 And it came about that, when the king dwelt in his own house and Jehovah himself had given him rest from all his enemies round about, 2 then the king said to Nathan the prophet: “See, now, I am dwelling in a house of cedars while the ark of the [true] God is dwelling in the middle of tent cloths.” 3 Upon that Nathan said to the king: “Everything that is in your heart—go, do, because Jehovah is with you.”

King David was thinking about building a house (Temple re: vs 5) for Jehovah in vss 1-3

In vs 4 The Prophet Nathan MISTAKENLY says that Jehovah will be with him in that desire.

What The Prophet Nathan told David was wrong, a prophet speaking for Jehovah and getting it WRONG sound familiar?

Jehovah corrects the matter of who will build his house (Temple):-

12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed (Soloman) after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite.

Now here we see a prophet of God speaking for Jehovah but he got it wrong, DID THAT ALSO MAKE NATHAN A FALSE PROPHET?


No the The Bible goes on to show that he continued to be used by Jehovah as his channel of communication, much like the WTBTS has been even thought like Nathan The Prophet they did some thing wrong.


How can Jehovah;s Witnesses speak in God’s Name because we exult it:-

Use of God’s Name instead of removing it from copies of the inspired texts!

Micah 4:5 For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah (YHWH) our God to time indefinite, even forever.

Matthew 6:9 “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

Psalm 83:18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah (YHWH), You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

As the church refuse to use it on puerile grounds.

Just a smsll point I started studying in 1974 and it was never mentioned to me or to anyone the worlds end in 1975!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Yes you have shown where we erred which my other posts explain. Let go back to what Jesus said would mark “false prophets”:-

Matthew 7:15-20 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. The bible uses fruit to describe the "results" of actions. The fruit mentioned above does not necessarily correspond to the fruits of the holy spirit. Jesus is saying that the results of their teaching will be evident to true Christians. When he is saying you don't gather grapes from thorns, he is saying that if the fruit of the prophets is bad, then you should not expect to get good advice from them.

This verse fits the Watchtower exactly. They have shown their bad fruit by their pattern of misleading prophesies that have failed. So why should you expect to get good teaching from such as them? You can't and won't. You only get half truths and more errors. Jesus is telling you that you should not listen to people such as the Watchtower society.



As regards T. Russell’s comments about the church being destroyed it my not of happened in a literal sence but spiritually they did fall and Christ rejected them when was installed as King in 1914 which was show by their actions against God’s “Prince of Peace” and king over the Earth buy fighting among themselves for power going against the Prophetic words at:- Again, you are taking the Watchtower's word that Jesus came "spiritually" in 1914. But why should you believe that? They said he was coming back physically in 1914, and they were wrong. So they just say it happend "in heaven" to protect their behinds.

But Barryrob, Jesus has always been in power in heaven. Before and after being on earth. He has no need to be made King. He IS King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And when Jesus comes back for real, he said that no one would miss it. It would not be some invisible coming, but it would be seen everwhere. Men will see the son of man coming in the clouds, as lightning is visable from east to the west.

Their 1914 Spiritual Coming is just another falsehood they tell you.


Note 2 and 3 are devoid of foretelling the future as Jehovah’s witnesses are not inspired we cannot predict the future, so to persist in that is to go down a blind allie.
You just refuse to see it, don't you? The DID claim to prophesy in God's name and it failed. It happened. it is done. They ARE false prohpets.

If they claim to TEACH in Jehovah's name they are lying. Because they already shown that they are false.

So how can The Watchtower be Jehovah God’s channel?

Moses God’s prophet but did wrong but not rejected as God’s channel:-

Deut 34:10 But there has never yet risen up a prophet in Israel like Moses, . . .

Num 20:12-13 Later Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron: “Because YOU did not show faith in me to sanctify me before the eyes of the sons of Israel, therefore YOU will not bring this congregation into the land that I shall certainly give them.” 13 These are the waters of Mer´i·bah, because the sons of Israel quarreled with Jehovah, so that he was sanctified among them. Where did Moses speak falsely, by claiming that God said something that God did not say? Name one instance where Moses misrepresented God's word. He did not. But I named several instances where the watchtower DID falsely misrepresent what Jehovah said.



Another example:-

2 Samuel 7:1-16 And it came about that, when the king dwelt in his own house and Jehovah himself had given him rest from all his enemies round about, 2 then the king said to Nathan the prophet: “See, now, I am dwelling in a house of cedars while the ark of the [true] God is dwelling in the middle of tent cloths.” 3 Upon that Nathan said to the king: “Everything that is in your heart—go, do, because Jehovah is with you.”

King David was thinking about building a house (Temple re: vs 5) for Jehovah in vss 1-3

In vs 4 The Prophet Nathan MISTAKENLY says that Jehovah will be with him in that desire.

What The Prophet Nathan told David was wrong, a prophet speaking for Jehovah and getting it WRONG sound familiar?
First Barryrob, I never said a prophet had to say everything correctly, only when he spoke for God. Here Nathan was not speaking for God, he did not even know what David had in mind. He was just being a friend and told David that God was with him, so he should do what is in his heart. The part about God being with David was true. The other part was not false. It was just friendly advice. It was not a teaching from God. God sent Nathan a correct message that night and Nathan relayed that to David immediately.

Again, not the same thing as the Watchtower speaking for Jehovah in claiming to be a true channel of communication and dispensing divine teachings as if they issued from Jehovah's mouth. And then claiming NOT to be inspired to cover their errors. That is wrong.


Just a smsll point I started studying in 1974 and it was never mentioned to me or to anyone the worlds end in 1975!


Well I studied with the Jehovah Witnesses in 1973, and I do remember it. In 1976 there was a big falling away from the JW's. You don't remember that?

for years before 1975, the watchtower preached and hinted about 1975.

At all assembly points where it was released, the book was received enthusiastically. Crowds gathered around stands and soon supplies of the book were depleted. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.628-9

But, without a doubt, nothing has created more interest in this textbook than the first chapter with its chart and fine information regarding the 7,000 years of God's rest day. The observation that 1975 may well mark the beginning of mankind's great Jubilee has intrigued many.
Watchtower 1/1/67 pg.29

'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could.
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.631

According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975 C.E. We are in the great 7,000-year rest day of God, starting at the time he rested after the creation of Adam and Eve. There are, therefore, a thousand years left to run. Without Satan and his demons to disturb mankind it will indeed be a restful time. It will be like a sabbath.
Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7


OK now read the following quotes. People were actually selling their homes and property because they believed the world would end in 1975. And they WERE PRAISED for doing so!!

Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17
Kingdom Ministry May 1974 pg.3


http://www.jwfiles.com/scans/KM5-1974p3.htm - link to scanned image.


And what about AFTER 1975?




Let us now examine what was said after the prophecy about 1975 failed. Right after they were praised for selling their homes to pioneer (full time preaching) Note what the Watchtower said of those who followed that encouragement.
It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible's warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.
Watchtower 7/15/76 pg.440

Did Jesus mean that we should adjust our financial and secular affairs so that our resources would just carry us to a certain date that we might think marks the end? If our house is suffering serious deterioration, should we let it go, on the assumption that we would need it only a few months longer? Or, if someone in the family possibly needs special medical care, should we say, 'Well, we'll put it off because the time is so near for this system of things to go'? This is not the kind of thinking that Jesus advised.
Watchtower 7/15/76 pg.440

But it is not advisable for us to set our sights on a certain date, neglecting everyday things we would ordinarily care for as Christians, such as things that we and our families really need. We may be forgetting that, when the "day" comes, it will not change the principle that Christians must at all times take care of all their responsibilities. If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.
Watchtower 7/15/76 pg.441

The Watchtower here is actually blaming it's readers for believing what it wrote! Note the harsh words to those who planned their lives around what they were taught about that coming year. It accuses them of 'planning their lives according to a mistaken view.' My question is where and from whom did they get that 'mistaken view?' The article also says of it's disappointed readers: 'his own understanding was based on wrong premises.' Again, where and from whom did the readers get these wrong premises? Of course as shown above they received it from the Watchtower. OK so let's see if I have this straight. They tell me they speak for God and I should follow them, when I do and what they say fails and now I've sold my home, and have no place to live. It's my fault for basing my hopes on wrong premises. Hummm.

[barryrob]

Hi JohnSparks

Just a quick thought. Here is what was exatly said in 1974 about 1975:-



*** w74 6/15 pp. 378-379 Serve with Eternity in View ***







And it is the same today among true Christians who realize from the fulfillment of Bible prophecy that the end of this entire wicked system of things is near at hand. True, the most accurate Bible chronology available indicates that 6,000 years of human existence will end in the mid-1970’s. So these Christians are intensely interested to see if that will coincide with the outbreak of the "great tribulation" of our day that will eliminate all wicked ones on earth. It could. But they are not even attempting to predict exactly when the destruction of Satan’s wicked system of things will occur. They are content to wait and see, realizing that no human on earth knows the date.—Matt. 24:36."







It seem to me that this was over looked or not even looked for so by way of repertition for emphsis:-





"But they are not even attempting to predict exactly when the destruction of Satan’s wicked system of things will occur. They are content to wait and see, realizing that no human on earth knows the date.—Matt. 24:36.""





Just to set matters Right on this point.





Barryrob

[Sparko]

Well, Barryrob,

I gave you quotes where they did predict the end in 1975, and you gave me quotes where they backed off of it. Seems like they were again talking out of both sides of their mouth, wanting to eat their cake and have it too.

To me this is yet one more giant red warning flag to not listen to the watchtower society.


Seems like we are not getting anywhere. I just hope that you will read the Watchtower with a little more skepticism in the future, like when they start hinting that the world will end in 2034, the next date on their calendar, which is 120 years from 1914, -- showing that they still haven't stopped their predictions yet. I bet they have at least learned not to come right out and CLAIM it will be in 2034, but you watch, the date will come up over and over and they will hint mightily that the world will end near 2034. It's a coming.

http://www.jwfiles.com/2034.htm

[barryrob]

"But they are not even attempting to predict exactly when the destruction of Satan’s wicked system of things will occur. They are content to wait and see, realizing that no human on earth knows the date.—Matt. 24:36.""

I do not think the Wathctower can be much planer then that,unless a blind eye is turned to it!?

Barryrob

[Sparko]

"But they are not even attempting to predict exactly when the destruction of Satan’s wicked system of things will occur. They are content to wait and see, realizing that no human on earth knows the date.—Matt. 24:36.""

I do not think the Wathctower can be much planer then that,unless a blind eye is turned to it!?

Barryrob showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.628-9

The observation that 1975 may well mark the beginning of mankind's great Jubilee has intrigued many.
Watchtower 1/1/67 pg.29

'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could!
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.631

According to the Bible timetable, man's history on earth has been nearly 6,000 years. Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E., which means that six thousand years of human history end about the fall of 1975
Watchtower 7/15/67 pg.446-7

Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17
Kingdom Ministry May 1974 pg.3
So Barryrob, I do not think the Wathctower can be much plainer then that,unless a blind eye is turned to it!?

If they claim both that the world was going to end in 1975 and that they were not claiming it was going to end in 1975, then they are definitely telling a lie somewhere in there.

[barryrob]

Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17
Kingdom Ministry May 1974 pg.3
So Barryrob, I do not think the Wathctower can be much plainer then that,unless a blind eye is turned to it!?

If they claim both that the world was going to end in 1975 and that they were not claiming it was going to end in 1975, then they are definitely telling a lie somewhere in there.
I stand by what I have said e.g.:

To get the context right of 'KM May 1974' p.3, sorry about the lenght of it (still only part anyway), but as the resasonable minded will see it is a general discoures about increased field service activity etc.:-

*** km 5/74 pp. 3-4 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
How Are You Using Your Life?

IS IT not apparent that most of mankind are living their lives for themselves? They are using their lives as they see fit, without concern for others. But what about us? The apostle Paul wrote to fellow servants of Jehovah, saying: "None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah."—Rom. 14:7, 8.

This is something for all of us to give serious thought to: It would be entirely inappropriate for us, while professing to be Jehovah’s people, to try to live our lives with regard to ourselves only. As the apostle Paul wrote: "You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God."—1 Cor. 6:19, 20.

Are we not thankful that Jehovah God has purchased us and that we now belong to Him? He has bought us with the life of his own dear Son so that eternal death does not have to be our lot, but we have before us the opportunity to enjoy everlasting life. (John 3:16, 36) How are you affected by this loving provision of God? Does it not cause you to want to show Jehovah your deep appreciation? The apostle Peter noted that if we have the proper mental disposition we will be moved to "live the remainder of [our] time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God’s will."—1 Pet. 4:2.

Is that what you are doing? Are you living no longer simply to satisfy personal ambitions or desires, but to do God’s will? Are there ways in which you could share more fully in doing the will of God?

God’s Will for Us

Jehovah makes clear in his Word that his will for us today includes accomplishing a great work of Kingdom-preaching before the end of this system comes. (Matt. 24:14) Jesus Christ did a similar work. He said: "Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth."—Luke 4:43.

Jesus did not hold back, but was whole-souled in his service to God. When we read the historical accounts of his ministry in the Gospels, how impressed we are with his energy and zeal in doing the Kingdom-preaching! Jesus knew that he had only a short time, and he did not spare himself in finishing his assignment. Should we not today be imitating his example, especially since we have such a short time left now in which to complete the Kingdom-preaching?

Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? In this regard we can learn something from a runner who puts on a final burst of speed near the finish of a race. Look at Jesus, who apparently stepped up his activity during his final days on earth. In fact, over 27 percent of the material in the Gospels is devoted to just the last week of Jesus’ earthly ministry!—Matt. 21:1–27:50; Mark 11:1–15:37; Luke 19:29–23:46; John 11:55–19:30.

By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.

Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17.

Circumstances such as poor health or responsibilities in connection with your family may limit what you can do in the field ministry. And yet, the pioneer ranks include many who have health limitations, as well as some persons with families. But these brothers and sisters are able to regulate their lives so that they can care for their responsibilities and still put in the 1,200 hours a year, an average of 100 hours a month in the field ministry, required of pioneers.

Therefore, do not be too quick to dismiss the possibility that you, too, may be able to pioneer. Give it careful and prayerful consideration. Perhaps an analysis will reveal that your life is encumbered with needless weights that can be put off so that you can pioneer. Particularly may this be the case if you are single, or are married but have no children.—Heb. 12:1.

So, then, ask yourself: How am I using my life? Can I make adjustments that will enable me to pioneer? If I can, will failure to do so indicate to Jehovah that I am living to satisfy personal desires, rather than to do His will? Every one of us wants to be able to say, as did the apostle Paul, "Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me. I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God." Gal. 2:20, 21."


As you say cutting can make anything say anything!!!!

Barryrob

[barryrob]

'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could.
Watchtower 10/15/66 pg.631

I can only asume that the person who gave you this quote had tunnel vision and could not see anything else on the page:-

THE YEAR 1975

At the Baltimore assembly Brother Franz in his closing remarks made some interesting comments regarding the year 1975. He began casually by saying, “Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean? Does it mean this, that or any other thing?’” In part, Brother Franz went on to say: ‘You have noticed the chart [on pages 31-35 in the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God]. It shows that 6,000 years of human experience will end in 1975, about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that God’s rest day began 4026 B.C.E.? It could have. The Life Everlasting book does not say it did not. The book merely presents the chronology. You can accept it or reject it. If that is the case, what does that mean to us? [He went into some length showing the feasibility of the 4026 B.C.E. date as being the beginning of God’s rest day.]

‘What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?’ asked Brother Franz. ‘Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah’s witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that."



Perhaps we can have a wipe round to send the person for an eye test?

Barryrob

[Sparko]

So basically they only "hinted" that 1975 was the end in this book, complete with charts and everything? But when they are put on the spot, they say "it COULD be" but did not come right out and make it clear? Sounds pretty dishonest to me. They wanted people to believe it, but did not want to come right out and say it. If they get their direction from Jehovah, how could they be so wishy washy? Does Jehovah guide them or not?

And then when people were actually selling their homes because they bought into these "hints" - they are praised for doing so. But as I posted back a couple of posts, after 1975, they actually chastised people who believed those "hints" and sold their homes and such. As if it were their fault for listening to the Watchtower in the first place.

Come on Barryrob!

Let's look at another quote. more complete this time so you can't say it is out of context.

"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many. There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike rest to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

"Since we have dedicated ourselves to Jehovah, we want to do his will to the fullest extent possible. Making some special effort to do more than the usual helps us live up to our dedication. In view of the short period of time left, we want to do this as often as circumstances permit. Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed. Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more."

[barryrob]

So basically they only "hinted" that 1975 was the end in this book, complete with charts and everything? But when they are put on the spot, they say "it COULD be" but did not come right out and make it clear? Sounds pretty dishonest to me. They wanted people to believe it, but did not want to come right out and say it. If they get their direction from Jehovah, how could they be so wishy washy? Does Jehovah guide them or not?

And then when people were actually selling their homes because they bought into these "hints" - they are praised for doing so. But as I posted back a couple of posts, after 1975, they actually chastised people who believed those "hints" and sold their homes and such. As if it were their fault for listening to the Watchtower in the first place.

Come on Barryrob!

Let's look at another quote. more complete this time so you can't say it is out of context.

"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many. There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike rest to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

"Since we have dedicated ourselves to Jehovah, we want to do his will to the fullest extent possible. Making some special effort to do more than the usual helps us live up to our dedication. In view of the short period of time left, we want to do this as often as circumstances permit. Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed. Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more."I this connection this is small sample of what the Watchtower etc. has on NOT KNOWING WHEN ARMAGEDDON WILL START:-



*** w1960 5/1 p. 285 Part 37: “Your Will Be Done on Earth” ***
5 At an ascertainable date, at the end of the “appointed times of the nations,” God’s kingdom was born in 1914 and Michael and his angels commenced battle against the invisible part of Satan’s world up in heaven. The demonic part of Satan’s world was hurled down to the unseen vicinity of this earth in the outer space through which the king of the north and the king of the south are rocketing their earth-moons or satellites or spaceships. But the day and the hour when Michael, the Son of God in Kingdom power, again takes up the battle at Armageddon is not known, which leaves also the year of it unknown to us in advance. In the year that Jehovah wiped out the “ancient world,” the “world of ungodly people,” Noah, having finished the three-story ark for survival for his family and animal species, was told of the day that the deluge would come down upon the earth. (2 Pet. 2:5; Gen. 7:1-11) The “ungodly people” were not told the day, but they had had enough hearable and seeable evidence in Noah’s preaching, in his completing the ark and in his gathering the animals and birds in it to know that the globe-engulfing flood was near at hand. Can we today know when the Son of God comes in his kingdom against Satan’s world at Armageddon? Jesus’ prophecy on the world’s end says:



*** w1956 2/15 p. 123 The “Triumphant Kingdom” Assemblies of 1955 ***
Jehovah’s witnesses in France came away from their successful assembly determined to push ahead with their work until Armageddon breaks out at an hour and a day known not to any man but only to God and his Christ. In consequence of the assembly at Paris the number of active Kingdom publishers should soon be reaching a new peak of over 10,000 for all France



*** AWAKE! 1986 12/8 p. 10 Who Will Survive This World’s End? ***
The World’s End—When?

When will this world come to its end? The Bible does not give us a specific date. Jesus made this clear when he responded to the question his disciples asked him about it. He said that the exact time, that is, the day and hour, was not known to any human. (Matthew 24:36) However, the fact that we humans cannot calculate the exact date of this world’s end does not mean that God would not give us any information as to when it was imminent.



*** w1986 2/15 p. 6 Apocalypse—When? ***
“A Thief in the Night”

The Bible forewarns: “As for the times and the seasons, . . . you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) Would you reasonably expect a thief to send a telegram announcing when he is planning to burglarize your home?
Appropriately, then, Jesus counsels us regarding the exact hour: “Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.” (Mark 13:32-37) Even so, we have noted that Jesus described various happenings that pinpoint the 1914 generation. And the Bible describes future events that will signal the imminent apocalypse. What may we expect?



*** w1979 7/1 pp. 29-30 How Jehovah Guides His People ***
19 Although many of Jehovah’s Witnesses have had to adjust their views in this matter, can we deny that we are in the “time of the end”? Surely the evidence of the impending end of this system grows daily, as we see the deepening breakdown of institutions such as marriage, family, government and worldly religion, as well as increasing crime and violence, and growing disrespect for God.—2 Tim. 3:1-5.
20 While an undetermined length of time yet remains of these “last days,” one thing is certain. Those who continue to walk in Jehovah’s advancing light, and are willing to be readjusted, will be part of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd” who “come out of the great tribulation” into God’s righteous new order. “The Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them [the great crowd], and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”—2 Pet. 3:14, 15; Rev. 7:9-17.



*** 1973 ka chap. 17 pp. 336-337 The “Slave” Who Lived to See the “Sign” ***
11 The Lord Jesus did not inform his disciples of the exact day and hour of the particular month of the certain year when he is coming (Greek: er´khe·tai) as Jehovah’s executional officer at the “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning.” He is not letting any of his disciples know of the precise time, so that they can be careless and occupy themselves with worldly pursuits until almost the last minute, and then immediately before the known precise time take on a form of godliness and busy themselves in God’s commanded service. Not so! But the failure to advise us of the precise date enforces upon us the need to stay continually on the alert. Our being overtaken by the “great tribulation” as by a thief will mean an eternal loss if we are not active in God’s pure worship. Hence, Jesus said:
12 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch [of the night] the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming [Greek: er´khe·tai].”—Matthew 24:43, 44.
13 What is the purpose of this leaving of his disciples uncertain as to the precise time of the Lord’s coming to execute the vengeance of Jehovah or to mete out justice upon this system of things, religious and political and social? It is to require all who claim to be Christ’s disciples to prove whether they are genuine everyday Christians all the time, continually occupied in preaching the good news of God’s Messianic kingdom and constantly exerting themselves in making “disciples of people of all the nations,” or are merely opportunists. That is, do they wait until they see that there is no longer any time to delay but now at last they must get busy as if they had always been wholly taken up with God’s approved work? Since it is “at an hour that you do not think to be it” that “the Son of man is coming,” it behooves us to be awake and active at all hours in the worship and service that our Lord approves.



*** w1974 10/15 p. 635 Growing in Appreciation for the “Divine Purpose” ***
The publications of Jehovah’s witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man’s existence will be completed in the mid-1970’s. But these publications have never said that the world’s end would come then. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation “Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour’” was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end. All we know is that the end will come within the generation that sees fulfilled on it the sign that Jesus Christ said would then be in evidence. (See Matthew chapters 24, 25.) All indications are that the fulfillment of this sign began in 1914. So we can be confident that the end is near; we do not have the slightest doubt that God will bring it about, the speaker stressed. But we have to wait and see exactly when, in the meantime keeping busy in God’s service.


The above quote is dated 1974 and yet you say we said Armageddon was the next year???


So when the person who gave you your quotes has been and had thier eyes tested perhaps we can have another whip round and send the person to reading classes so the he or she may understand what the above highlighted words mean! I will be more then willing to send a donation s for the sake of accuracy and truth.

So if any person would like to know in an accurate way what we teach please feel free to ask me and I will do my best to give a full picture unlike http://www.jwfiles.com/2034.htm (http://www.jwfiles.com/2034.htm) as they seem not to be able to understsnd simple phrases in the English language, as in bold type above or have an agenda not to see the above so as to misrepresent others for their own self agrandisment, as in reality they seem to be psuedo truth seakers and presenters to me.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

well looks like we are going around in circles Barryrob,

I post where the watchtower says the end will come in XXX and then you post where they say that they are not saying that. If they said both, then one is wrong. I provided some quotes in context last time so you could not claim they were taken out of context, and were clearly indicating that the end would come near 1975.

To me, that means they are lying at least in one of those places, since to claim two contradictory things involves at least one of them being false.

But if you want to ignore the evidence and just see the bits that you post, maybe you should be a Jehovah's Witness, since you are so willing to blindly follow these false prophets who are so good at ignoring their own words and pretending they did not say what they said.

They also claimed that the world would end FOR SURE before the generation alive in 1914 passed away. Do you believe this? How many are left? It's getting close to 100 years.

I will continue to pray for you though, that you might find the truth someday.

[barryrob]

*** w1974 10/15 p. 635 Growing in Appreciation for the “Divine Purpose” ***
The publications of Jehovah’s witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man’s existence will be completed in the mid-1970’s. But these publications have never said that the world’s end would come then. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation “Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour’” was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end. All we know is that the end will come within the generation that sees fulfilled on it the sign that Jesus Christ said would then be in evidence. (See Matthew chapters 24, 25.) All indications are that the fulfillment of this sign began in 1914. So we can be confident that the end is near; we do not have the slightest doubt that God will bring it about, the speaker stressed. But we have to wait and see exactly when, in the meantime keeping busy in God’s service.


The above quote is dated 1974 and yet you say we said Armageddon was the next year???


I think you Barkimus up the wrong tree!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

*** w1974 10/15 p. 635 Growing in Appreciation for the “Divine Purpose” ***
The publications of Jehovah’s witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man’s existence will be completed in the mid-1970’s. But these publications have never said that the world’s end would come then. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation “Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour’” was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end. All we know is that the end will come within the generation that sees fulfilled on it the sign that Jesus Christ said would then be in evidence. (See Matthew chapters 24, 25.) All indications are that the fulfillment of this sign began in 1914. So we can be confident that the end is near; we do not have the slightest doubt that God will bring it about, the speaker stressed. But we have to wait and see exactly when, in the meantime keeping busy in God’s service.


The above quote is dated 1974 and yet you say we said Armageddon was the next year???


I think you Barkimus up the wrong tree!

Barryrob "THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many. There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike rest to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

So let me see if I understand your logic Barryrob,

1. I post a clear quote saying they did predict that 1975 was going to be the end of the world.

2. You post a quote denying they said that.

3. Therefore your denial trumps my clear quote, and they did not say what I showed them to say.

Is that about it?

Cuz if it is, then you are the one in denial buddy.

[barryrob]

"Cannot be many" and "final few years" as the article points out is speculative not concrete as Jesus' own word say "no one knows". The focus in no the end of 6,000 yrs from Adam which must mark the closeness of God's Judgment on this world.


I will point you back to the CLEAR comments in the post with the WT quotes in and about 1974/5 sent to you showing clarfiying the matter the we do not konw it cannot be any planer!

Barryrob

[jwkenne]

"Cannot be many" and "final few years" as the article points out is speculative not concrete as Jesus' own word say "no one knows". The focus in no the end of 6,000 yrs from Adam which must mark the closeness of God's Judgment on this world.


I will point you back to the CLEAR comments in the post with the WT quotes in and about 1974/5 sent to you showing clarfiying the matter the we do not konw it cannot be any planer!

Barryrob

I can't help myself here. I, for one, would like to see a response to the quote below. It would help if you could respond to the actual quote, and explain how it is not indicative of "false prophecy", and not just offer a quote of your own.

"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death."

Just a thought. Benny Hinn, anyone?

[barryrob]

I can't help myself here. I, for one, would like to see a response to the quote below. It would help if you could respond to the actual quote, and explain how it is not indicative of "false prophecy", and not just offer a quote of your own.

"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death."

Just a thought. Benny Hinn, anyone?

Hi BH

1st "a few years" is an undetermind lehgth of time thus not fixing a date.

2nd "'this generation'" has to be understood in the back gouund of whct we think a generation means:-



Watchtower 1952 9/1 p.542 Questions from Readers
• Your publications point out that the battle of Armageddon will come in this generation, and that this generation began A.D. 1914. Scripturally, how long is a generation?—G. P., Liberia.

Webster’s unabridged dictionary gives, in part, this definition of generation: “The average lifetime of man, or the ordinary period of time at which one rank follows another, or father is succeeded by child; an age. A generation is usually taken to be about 33 years.” But the Bible is not so specific. It gives no number of years for a generation. And in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, the texts mentioning the generation the question refers to, we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster’s does in its 33-year approximation; but rather more like Webster’s first-quoted definition, “the average lifetime of man.” Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping. (Ps. 78:4; 145:4) Before the Noachian flood the life span was hundreds of years. Down through the centuries since, it has varied, and even now is different in different countries. The Bible does speak of a man’s days as being threescore and ten or fourscore years; but it assigns no specific number of years to a generation.—Ps. 90:10.

Even if it did, we could not calculate from such a figure the date of Armageddon, for the texts here under discussion do not say God’s battle comes right at the end of this generation, but before its end. To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation. There are hundreds of millions of persons living now that were living in 1914, and many millions of these persons could yet live a score or more years. Just when the lives of the majority of them will be cut short by Armageddon we cannot say.



So in the above quote (PLEASE NOTE THE DATE 1952) we see what the Watchtower teaches the a "generation" is an undetermind lenght of time but not a long extended on going period, but that it will have an end and some of the said generation alive in the period of time will see a certan event as the case by be.

So what ever is said about the time of the end has to be set in the background of the above as this has been a guide line for years for us. It would seem that others do not know this so do not take it into account when telling others about what we teach and thus give a disrorted view of our teachings.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

Why do you pick and choose what parts of my quotes to respond to and completely ignore other parts?

Please respond to the following points:

1. If the generation of people living in 1914 will sill be alive when Armageddon comes, then what is the latest it will come? How many people of this generation will still be alive? Can it be as little as ONE person? Doesn't the bible say that

Matthew 23:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+23:36&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


Matthew 24:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24:34&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So that means a significant number of that generation must remain alive doesn't it?

2. Does it refer to people BORN in 1914 as being part of that generation or people who were old enough to understand Jesus' coming in 1914? The quote I posted earlier seems to say that it refers to people old enough to understand what happened in 1914 (so it would not include infants in the generation of 1914) - do you agree?

"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today.

3. If this is the case as it claims above, then those people would have been born in 1899 and would most all be dead by now - 105 years later.


And finally:

According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

4. Is that not a clear post claiming that the end will come by the autumn of 1975?

5. Nowhere does the bible say that if you claim a range of dates for a prophesy (as opposed to setting a single date) does that let a prophet off the hook if they fail. Isaiah prophesied in chapter 7 about an uncertain date, that the Kings attacking Israel would be destroyed by the time the child (messiah) was old enough to know right from wrong. If he failed in that prophesy, he would have been a false prophet.

Therefore, even if you allow for some slack in the watchtower's prophesies of the end times around 1975, they always said the end will definately come within a few years. And that was back in the 1950's and 60's. It has been more than a few years and so they have failed.

THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God

[barryrob]

Please respond to the following points:

1. If the generation of people living in 1914 will sill be alive when Armageddon comes, then what is the latest it will come? How many people of this generation will still be alive? Can it be as little as ONE person? Doesn't the bible say that

Matthew 23:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+23:36&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


WE DO NOT KNOW ONLY GOD KNOWS!!




Matthew 24:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24:34&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So that means a significant number of that generation must remain alive doesn't it?

2. Does it refer to people BORN in 1914 as being part of that generation or people who were old enough to understand Jesus' coming in 1914? The quote I posted earlier seems to say that it refers to people old enough to understand what happened in 1914 (so it would not include infants in the generation of 1914) - do you agree?


AS WE DO NOT KNOW WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE HOW THE EXACT DETAILS UNFOLD!!!!!


I have only been a Jehovah's Witness for 30 yrs and during that time I have never believed as you say, as it is not our teachings as my posts show, so I can only think you want to believe what you want to believe which is not what I have ever believed!
Barryrob

[jwkenne]

Please respond to the following points:

1. If the generation of people living in 1914 will sill be alive when Armageddon comes, then what is the latest it will come? How many people of this generation will still be alive? Can it be as little as ONE person? Doesn't the bible say that

Matthew 23:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+23:36&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.


WE DO NOT KNOW ONLY GOD KNOWS!!




Matthew 24:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24:34&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So that means a significant number of that generation must remain alive doesn't it?

2. Does it refer to people BORN in 1914 as being part of that generation or people who were old enough to understand Jesus' coming in 1914? The quote I posted earlier seems to say that it refers to people old enough to understand what happened in 1914 (so it would not include infants in the generation of 1914) - do you agree?


AS WE DO NOT KNOW WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE HOW THE EXACT DETAILS UNFOLD!!!!!


I have only been a Jehovah's Witness for 30 yrs and during that time I have never believed as you say, as it is not our teachings as my posts show, so I can only think you want to believe what you want to believe which is not what I have ever believed!
Barryrob

What do you think of the article at http://www.watchman.org/jw/talkingboutmygeneration.htm? Is the information here incorrect?

[Sparko]

I have only been a Jehovah's Witness for 30 yrs and during that time I have never believed as you say, as it is not our teachings as my posts show, so I can only think you want to believe what you want to believe which is not what I have ever believed!
Barryrob
Well, Barryrob, since we have written quotes of what the Watchtower wants you to believe, and you claim that you don't believe it, doesn't that make you an unfaithful servant?

Instead of answering my points, you just retreat into denial. Burying you head in the sand won't make what the watchtower said go away. That is the problem with being a literary based organization. All of their writings remain for future generations to read and compare.


They said, in the late 60's:


According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."

evidently, they were wrong. They set a date and were wrong. If they are truly the mouthpiece of Jehovah, he would never let them make so many mistakes. Either he is not speaking to them, or they are not listening to him. Either way, they are not his mouthpiece or his organization to guide mankind. They are either ingoring him, or he is not speaking to them.

They want all the benefits of being prophets without any of the downside, like being held accountable to what they say.

If you read that link that Jwkene posted above, you will see how they continually change doctrine back and forth. They claim they are "tacking", but the bible calls it false prophesy.

[barryrob]

Well, Barryrob, since we have written quotes of what the Watchtower wants you to believe, and you claim that you don't believe it, doesn't that make you an unfaithful servant?

Instead of answering my points, you just retreat into denial. Burying you head in the sand won't make what the watchtower said go away. That is the problem with being a literary based organization. All of their writings remain for future generations to read and compare.


They said, in the late 60's:










According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."





evidently, they were wrong. They set a date and were wrong. If they are truly the mouthpiece of Jehovah, he would never let them make so many mistakes. Either he is not speaking to them, or they are not listening to him. Either way, they are not his mouthpiece or his organization to guide mankind. They are either ingoring him, or he is not speaking to them.





They want all the benefits of being prophets without any of the downside, like being held accountable to what they say.

If you read that link that Jwkene posted above, you will see how they continually change doctrine back and forth. They claim they are "tacking", but the bible calls it false prophesy.



Dear John Sparks


You have either not read my comments correctly or do not understand them in conection with the point we are dealing with. I will focus on one point here simpley.

This:-

"According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975.""

has nothing directly to do with when Armaggedon WILL TAKE PLACE, it simple means that during the year 1975 will mark 6,000 yrs from the time of Adam's creation to that year, nothing more, nothing less, or to put it another way humans have been living on this planet for 6.000 yrs., it just marks the end of a peroid of time, from Adam to then in the Fall of 1975.

It does not mean that human history will stop or that Armaggedon will start, it just means that one phase of human history is over, a 6,000 yr phase in the Autumn of 1975.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

Some are right some are wrong.
Pick a few points that intrest you and get back to me?

Christian Love
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Dear John Sparks


You have either not read my comments correctly or do not understand them in conection with the point we are dealing with. I will focus on one point here simpley.

This:-

"According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975.""

has nothing directly to do with when Armaggedon WILL TAKE PLACE, it simple means that during the year 1975 will mark 6,000 yrs from the time of Adam's creation to that year, nothing more nothing less, or to put is another way humans have been living on this planet for 6.000 yrs., it just marks the end of a peroid of time, from Adam to then, 1975.

It niether means that human History will stop or that Armaggedon will start, it just means that one phase of human history is over, a 6,000 yr phase in the Autumn of 1975.

Barryrob
Now who is guilty of taking things out of context? Barryrob, the quote above is saying that the end of the six thousand years of human history will END with God destroying this system of things. It is not simply saying that some phase ended. If that is the case then we are now in beyond the 6000 years of human history? And it meant nothing?

No. Read the whole quote in context:

Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13-14 "THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many.

There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike rest to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."


Clearly it says that the end of the 6,000 years of human history will end with God destroying this system of things and setting up his 1000 year kingdom. and how do we know when this will end? why because the 6000 years will be up in 1975!

Now, you can deny it all you want, but that is exactly what they are saying. Anyone reading this thread can see that. Denying it won't make it go away or not be true.

Do you want to know the truth? or do you just want to continue to believe as you always had, even if it is not the truth?

[barryrob]

Hi john Sparks

"the final few years " is an undetermined periond of time before Armaggedon starts;_

"few —adj. not many (few doctors smoke). —n. (as pl.) 1 (prec. by a) some but not many (a few of his friends were there). 2 not many (few are chosen). 3 (prec. by the) a the minority. b the elect. a good few colloq. fairly large number. no fewer than as many as (a specified number). not a few a considerable number. [Old English]."-Oxford Dic.

A "FEW" OR 'NOT MANY' IS AN UNKNOWN QUANITY SO IN CONECTION WITH OR RELATIVE TO THE 6,000 YRS GONE IT COULD BE 10'S OF YEARS OR MORE, YOUR UNDERSTSNDING OF THE CONTECTON IS LIMITED BY NOT UNTERSTANDING OUR TEACHINGS CORRECTLY OR IN THE FULL BACK GROUND OF OTHER ITEMS PUBLISHED ON THIS MATTER OVER THE YEARS, THIS I CAN SEE.


The Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13-14 is the one you quoted from so here is a little more background for you, NOTE THE YEAR!!!!!!:-




*** Watchtower 1968 8/15 pp. 500-501 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? **

1975! . . . AND FAR BEYOND!

34 Bible chronology is an interesting study by which historic events are placed in their order of occurrence along the stream of time. The Watch Tower Society over the years has endeavored to keep its associates abreast with the latest scholarship that proves consistent with historic and prophetic events recorded in the Scriptures. Major problems in sacred chronology have been straightened out either due to fulfillment of Bible prophecies or by reason of archaeological discoveries or because better Bible translations convey more clearly the records of the original languages. However, several knotty problems of chronology of a minor nature are not yet resolved. For example, at the time of the exodus from Egypt when Jehovah changed the beginning of the year from autumn time on the secular calendar to spring time on the sacred calendar, was there, in the Jewish calendar, a loss or a gain of six months?—Ex. 12:1, 2.





35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself* knows both the "day and hour"!

36 Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they knew nothing about 1975. All they could see was a short time ahead in which to finish the work assigned to them. (1 Pet. 4:7) Hence, there was a ring of alarm and a cry of urgency in all their writings. (Acts 20:20; 2 Tim. 4:2) And rightly so. If they had delayed or dillydallied and had been complacent with the idea the end was some thousands of years off they would never have finished running the race set before them. No, they ran hard and they ran fast, and they won! It was a life or death matter with them.—1 Cor. 9:24; 2 Tim. 4:7; Heb. 12:1.

37 So too with Jehovah’s faithful witnesses in this latter half of the twentieth century. They have the true Christian point of view. Their strenuous evangelistic activity is not something peculiar to this present decade. They have not dedicated their lives to serve Jehovah only until 1975. Christians have been running this way ever since Christ Jesus blazed the trail and commanded his disciples. "Follow me!" So keep this same mental attitude in you that was in Christ Jesus. Let nothing slow you down or cause you to tire and give out. Those who will flee Babylon the Great and this Satanic system of things are now running for their lives, headed for God’s kingdom, and they will not stop at 1975. O no! They will keep on in this glorious way that leads to everlasting life, praising and serving Jehovah for ever and ever!

*NO ONE ELSE!!!!!!!!

Barryrob

[jwkenne]

Hi john Sparks



"the final few years " is an undetermined periond of time before Armaggedon starts;_

"few —adj. not many (few doctors smoke). —n. (as pl.) 1 (prec. by a) some but not many (a few of his friends were there). 2 not many (few are chosen). 3 (prec. by the) a the minority. b the elect. a good few colloq. fairly large number. no fewer than as many as (a specified number). not a few a considerable number. [Old English]."-Oxford Dic.

A "FEW" OR 'NOT MANY' IS AN UNKNOWN QUANITY SO IN CONECTION WITH OR RELATIVE TO THE 6,000 YRS GONE IT COULD BE 10'S OF YEARS OR MORE, YOUR UNDERSTSNDING OF THE CONTECTON IS LIMITED BY NOT UNTERSTANDING OUR TEACHINGS CORRECTLY OR IN THE FULL BACK GROUND OF OTHER ITEMS PUBLISHED ON THIS MATTER OVER THE YEARS, THIS I CAN SEE.

Barryrob

I am not here to throw stones. That being said, this is a cop out, and you know it. If the phrase "the last few years" isn't meant to specify a short period of time, then it should not have been said at all. It is your contention, that the term "few" can basically mean anything from one year to a thousand years. It is undefineable. Now, I don't think that is what is the Watchtower meant at all...it is obvious upon reading their works, that they are predicting a very soon return of Jesus. A return that they keep having to delay their predictions of, and redefine their terms. The same can be said of Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe, and the scores of other Christians who would rather shoot their mouth off than actually read Matthew 24 before they start setting times and dates. You have made it your point in this thread, everytime they are quoted, to respond by saying, "Noone knows!!! Jesus said noone knows!!!" you are correct (sort of), but if you and yours hold to this belief, then you should be troubled by the sort of blind speculation and pulling scripture out of context that is being pointed out here. For the record,I am not a futurist, and I do not believe in the rapture. Period. That being said, up until recently I did hold to the futurist position, but was always disgusted by this sort of guessing game these people are playing. You haven't said one thing to justify it. So, in the interest of my understanding...

Do you deny, despite the many quotes given in this thread, that the "Watchtower" has made more than a few failed predictions on just when Jesus is going to return to Earth?

[barryrob]

JESUS is not going to return to this Earth ever"
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Hi john Sparks

"the final few years " is an undetermined periond of time before Armaggedon starts;_

"few —adj. not many (few doctors smoke). —n.

A "FEW" OR 'NOT MANY' IS AN UNKNOWN QUANITY SO IN CONECTION WITH OR RELATIVE TO THE 6,000 YRS GONE IT COULD BE 10'S OF YEARS OR MORE, YOUR UNDERSTSNDING OF THE CONTECTON IS LIMITED BY NOT UNTERSTANDING OUR TEACHINGS CORRECTLY OR IN THE FULL BACK GROUND OF OTHER ITEMS PUBLISHED ON THIS MATTER OVER THE YEARS, THIS I CAN SEE. Barryrob,

You are a drowning man grasping at straws. Your tactic above shows this clearly.

Few does NOT mean more than 36 years. The quote I gave clearly stated what they meant by "few" - they meant by the end of 1975. They clearly stated it. You are completly ignoring it and trying desparately to remain blind to that fact.

The rest of you quotes does nothing to change the fact that they did claim the world would end in 1975 and that they were WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

That means they were wrong.

Not right.

False.

wrongo.

wrongdiddly wrong wrong wrong.

They are false prophets. They are not Jehovah's voice. They speak NOT for Jehovah. They are wrongo wrong wrong wrong and you should not follow them.

God does not speak through them.

He does not lead them.

He does not recognize them.

That is why they have been wrong so many times. and will keep on being wrong in the future.

WRONG.



35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself* knows both the "day and hour"! Yep, they again try to claim both sides of the story. Cover their behinds. But since I clearly posted where they DID claim the world would end in 1975, then this just further proves their duplicity. They are WRONGITY WRONG WRONG WRONG. <-- That means they are not right :wink:

But notice what they say right after they mention that nobody knows the day and hour?

To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end.

Do they affirm what Jesus said? NO! they say that to the contrary one should be keenly aware that the end is rapidly aproaching its violent end!

ACK! Barry! I know you can read! You just need to open your mind and heart to SEE! Pray for Jehovah to remove the scales from your eyes and your heart. Ask God for wisdom, and he will grant it to you generously.

[barryrob]

Now who is guilty of taking things out of context? Barryrob, the quote above is saying that the end of the six thousand years of human history will END with God destroying this system of things. It is not simply saying that some phase ended. If that is the case then we are now in beyond the 6000 years of human history? And it meant nothing?

No. Read the whole quote in context:







Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13-14"THE fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come before that generation passed away in death. This, of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many.




There is another way that helps confirm the fact that we are living in the final few years of this "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we are nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history. What significance does this have?...Revelation chapter 20, verse 6, shows that God's heavenly kingdom will rule over the earth for one thousand years after the end of this system of things. That millennium will bring a sabbathlike rest to the earth and all those then inhabiting it...How fitting it would be for God, following this pattern, to end man's misery after six thousand years of human rule and follow it with His glorious Kingdom rule for a thousand years...How can it be determined when 6,000 years of human history will end? According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve were created in 4026 .C.E...This would leave only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975."


Clearly it says that the end of the 6,000 years of human history will end with God destroying this system of things and setting up his 1000 year kingdom. and how do we know when this will end? why because the 6000 years will be up in 1975!

Now, you can deny it all you want, but that is exactly what they are saying. Anyone reading this thread can see that. Denying it won't make it go away or not be true.

Do you want to know the truth? or do you just want to continue to believe as you always had, even if it is not the truth?





I am sat here with the AWAKE! Oct. 8th 1968 (original copy) in front to show you that what I have said was right and to show you what in this Magazine what has not been show to you after the quotes you cited from paras. 1-6; you stopped at para. 6!!



AWAKE! Oct. 8th 1968 p.14 para. 7

“Does this mean that the above evidence positively points to 1975 as the time for the complete end of this system go things? Since the Bible does not specifically state this, no man can say. However, of this we can be sure: The 1970’s will certainly see the most critical times mankind has yet known. The deterioration in human relations-within families, communities, cities and nations, and between nations-will worsen, not improve. (2 Tim. 3:13) If the 1970’s should see the intervention by Jehovah God to bring an end to a corrupt world drifting toward ultimate disintegration, that should surely not surprise us.”



So please before you say that we said 1975 was going to see the start of Armageddon get your facts right as you probably have not even seen the Magazine, as I have an original copy which I have in front of me now.


Barryrob

[Sparko]

JESUS is not going to return to this Earth ever"
Barryrob
Well this is off the topic but I can't let you claim such heresy without responding.

Zechariah 14:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ZECH+14:4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.


Acts 1: 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Revelaton 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

[barryrob]

Well this is off the topic but I can't let you claim such heresy without responding.

Zechariah 14:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ZECH+14:4&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.


Acts 1: 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Revelaton 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
It might be good to start another thread with this one it might be very intresting?

Barryrob

[barryrob]

"Do you deny, despite the many quotes given in this thread, that the "Watchtower" has made more than a few failed predictions on just when Jesus is going to return to Earth?"

Yes. We do not believe that will happen; Jesus return to earth.

In conection with the outbrake of Armaggedon we have published premiture expectaions as the quotes I have enclosed in this thread show and made the point that this has been openly admited to and corrections to our understanding has been made, this false prophets do not do, that is to say make corrections.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

We are repeating ourselves. The bible does not say they are not false prophets if they admit they were wrong after the fact. The sole criteria for a false prophet is to claime to speak for the lord and have your words not come true. That's it. finished. They can apologize all they want after the fact, but they are still false prophets. And as I have shown in this thread, the Watchtower has not only been a false prophet once. nor twice. nor three times. but several times. Even after they "admitted they were wrong" on the previous occasions, they could not help themselves doing it again and again. See a pattern?

The bible says that once is enough to be a false prophet. It does not say they can apologize later and no longer be a false prophet. And the Watchtower continues over and over.

This thread is done. You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper, so lets just drop it now, OK?

If you want to discuss Jesus coming back to earth in another thread, then yes, start it. It might be better done in another forum, like Eschatology or Apologetics 301 , so more people will participate, since it concerns all christians and not just Jehovah's Witnesses.

[barryrob]

Hi John Sparks
You are entitled to your view no matter how wrong it is.
Barryrob

[jwkenne]

"Do you deny, despite the many quotes given in this thread, that the "Watchtower" has made more than a few failed predictions on just when Jesus is going to return to Earth?"

Yes. We do not believe that will happen; Jesus return to earth.

In conection with the outbrake of Armaggedon we have published premiture expectaions as the quotes I have enclosed in this thread show and made the point that this has been openly admited to and corrections to our understanding has been made, this false prophets do not do, that is to say make corrections.

Barryrob

So you admit that they have, and continue to make, false predictions, while using the bible to justify these things. You just don't think that "false prophet" is an apt description of their actions. I can deal with that. I have my own terms for them as well.

[barryrob]

So you admit that they have, and continue to make, false predictions, while using the bible to justify these things. You just don't think that "false prophet" is an apt description of their actions. I can deal with that. I have my own terms for them as well.

Who said anything about "continue to make" do NOT put words into my mouth or say things that have NOT been said, that will not work for the honest.

Barryrob

[jwkenne]

Who said anything about "continue to make" do NOT put words into my mouth or say things that have NOT been said, that will not work for the honest.

Barryrob

You didn't have to say it. It has been shown continually in this thread, in the link I provided, and in other places as well. But, to use your logic, IF they make another failed prediction, will you THEN consider them false prophets? Where do you draw the line?

[barryrob]

You didn't have to say it. It has been shown continually in this thread, in the link I provided, and in other places as well. But, to use your logic, IF they make another failed prediction, will you THEN consider them false prophets? Where do you draw the line?

False prophet lay claim to being inspired of God, Jehovah's Witnesses deny that they are inspired of God:-

*** w1981 2/15 p. 19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***

True, the brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe. Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these “last days.” Bible commentators of Christendom are not inspired either. Despite their claims to great knowledge, they have failed to highlight even basic Bible truths—such as the coming Paradise earth, the importance of God’s name, and the condition of the dead.



*** w1966 3/15 p. 192 Questions from Readers ***

However, in fulfillment of the words of Joel 2:28, 29, even today dedicated servants of Jehovah, though not inspired, are aided by God’s spirit or active force to explain Scriptural prophecies to those receiving them in a favorable and appreciative way. Such persons are thus rewarded spiritually.—1 Cor. 2:10.



*** w1962 12/15 p. 762 We Need Jehovah’s Organization ***

The men in Jehovah’s organization who prepare spiritual instruction for the Lord’s “sheep” diligently study the Scriptures to learn what God has put there for the instruction and guidance of his people. They make no claim of inspiration—only that they are Bible students. Since their comments on the Scriptures are not inspired, they can at times make mistakes. Does this make them false prophets? Not at all! A false prophet does not correct himself. He persists in proclaiming a wrong view even when he knows that it is wrong. But these students of God’s Word correct misunderstandings when they discover them. They are interested in the truth, not in self-justification. Their mistakes do not mean God’s spirit does not operate upon them; it does, just as it did upon Peter despite his mistakes.



Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob, go back are reread the posts I made earlier in this thread. They do indeed claim to speak for God. The bible does not say a prophet has to say they are "inspired" of God, but that they claim to speak for God and then what they say does not come to pass. That's it.

The watchtower claims to speak for Jehovah. To be his "channel of communication" and to be the "Jeremiah class" (Jeremiah was a prophet) - and yet they claim they are not "inspired" - what does that mean? It means they want all the benefits of being a prophet of God without any of the accountability of being a prophet of God.

It won't wash. They are false prophets

This thread has come full circle. I now point you back to my first post where the watchtower themselves give a definition of what a false prophet is:

Awake, 10/8/1968, pg23..."those in times past who predicted an “end of the world”, even announcing a specific date...they were guilty of false prophesying."

scan click to enlarge:

[attachment=1]

did they qualify their accusations with "unless they admitted they were wrong later"? no. They had no qualms accusing others who predicted the end and it did not come as "false prophets" - live by the sword, die by the sword.

Their own words condemn them.

[jwkenne]

False prophet lay claim to being inspired of God, Jehovah's Witnesses deny that they are inspired of God:-

*** w1981 2/15 p. 19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***

True, the brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe. Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these “last days.” Bible commentators of Christendom are not inspired either. Despite their claims to great knowledge, they have failed to highlight even basic Bible truths—such as the coming Paradise earth, the importance of God’s name, and the condition of the dead.



*** w1966 3/15 p. 192 Questions from Readers ***

However, in fulfillment of the words of Joel 2:28, 29, even today dedicated servants of Jehovah, though not inspired, are aided by God’s spirit or active force to explain Scriptural prophecies to those receiving them in a favorable and appreciative way. Such persons are thus rewarded spiritually.—1 Cor. 2:10.



*** w1962 12/15 p. 762 We Need Jehovah’s Organization ***

The men in Jehovah’s organization who prepare spiritual instruction for the Lord’s “sheep” diligently study the Scriptures to learn what God has put there for the instruction and guidance of his people. They make no claim of inspiration—only that they are Bible students. Since their comments on the Scriptures are not inspired, they can at times make mistakes. Does this make them false prophets? Not at all! A false prophet does not correct himself. He persists in proclaiming a wrong view even when he knows that it is wrong. But these students of God’s Word correct misunderstandings when they discover them. They are interested in the truth, not in self-justification. Their mistakes do not mean God’s spirit does not operate upon them; it does, just as it did upon Peter despite his mistakes.



Barryrob

So, "No.", in other words. That is fine. As I said, you can call them what you want. They have, and continue to make, false predictions. Some hold them accountable for that, and some don't. I would think that, assuming you believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, you might be inclined to see this sort of thing as a problem, but that is up to you.

[barryrob]

Barryrob, go back are reread the posts I made earlier in this thread. They do indeed claim to speak for God. The bible does not say a prophet has to say they are "inspired" of God, but that they claim to speak for God and then what they say does not come to pass. That's it.

The watchtower claims to speak for Jehovah. To be his "channel of communication" and to be the "Jeremiah class" (Jeremiah was a prophet) - and yet they claim they are not "inspired" - what does that mean? It means they want all the benefits of being a prophet of God without any of the accountability of being a prophet of God.

It won't wash. They are false prophets

This thread has come full circle. I now point you back to my first post where the watchtower themselves give a definition of what a false prophet is:

Awake, 10/8/1968, pg23..."those in times past who predicted an “end of the world”, even announcing a specific date...they were guilty of false prophesying."

scan click to enlarge:

[attachment=1]

did they qualify their accusations with "unless they admitted they were wrong later"? no. They had no qualms accusing others who predicted the end and it did not come as "false prophets" - live by the sword, die by the sword.

Their own words condemn them.


Let me remind you of my other post:-

"I am sat here with the AWAKE! Oct. 8th 1968 (original copy) in front to show you that what I have said was right and to show you what in this Magazine what has not been show to you after the quotes you cited from paras. 1-6; you stopped at para. 6!!

AWAKE! Oct. 8th 1968 p.14 para. 7

“Does this mean that the above evidence positively points to 1975 as the time for the complete end of this system go things? Since the Bible does not specifically state this, no man can say. However, of this we can be sure: The 1970’s will certainly see the most critical times mankind has yet known. The deterioration in human relations-within families, communities, cities and nations, and between nations-will worsen, not improve. (2 Tim. 3:13) If the 1970’s should see the intervention by Jehovah God to bring an end to a corrupt world drifting toward ultimate disintegration, that should surely not surprise us.”"


So how can they be false prophets if as in the above they do not know as "NO MAN CAN SAY"???

No John Sparks your mould still does not fit, you are trying to make them say somthing they cannot say and said as much!


It would seem that in 1951 the Watchtower said they did not know when Armaggeddon will happen and along with all the other quotes I have posted down until 1998 and down to 2003 (see the quotes below) you are still trying to make us say somthing that would seem not to be the case:-


*** w1951 10/15 pp. 614-615 Jehovah’s War of Armageddon ***



Jehovah’s “D-day” of Armageddon may be strictly a military secret, but the suddenness and surprise of it will convince even the enemy that this is it. Armageddon will break as suddenly as the flood that deluged the earth in Noah’s day; as suddenly as the bolts of fire that came down from heaven and licked up the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in Lot’s day. (Luke 17:26-30) Satan’s forces will be as surprised as when Joshua’s army ambushed the cocky inhabitants of Ai; as surprised as the slumbering Midianites when Gideon’s little band in the dead of night smashed the pitchers and shouted, “The sword of Jehovah and of Gideon”; as surprised as when David’s men circled the Philistines and came upon them from the rear. (Josh. 8:1-23; Judg. 7:19-22; 2 Sam. 5:22-24, AS) As in these past instances, so also now, Jehovah God is maneuvering the enemy into a position where their destruction will be so sudden and complete Jehovah will be vindicated for all time as the greatest warrior in the universe, supreme in wisdom and almighty in battle.—Ex. 15:3; Ps. 24:8, 10, AS.



*** AWAKE! 1998 5/8 p. 21 How Significant Is the Year 2000? ***

“When Will These Things Be?”

Jesus’ apostles manifested keen interest in God’s timetable when they asked Jesus: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) Many today share a similar curiosity about the future. It is natural to be keenly interested in such significant Bible prophecies and the time of their fulfillment. However, it is wise to accept and respect God’s position on the matter.

By means of his Son, Jehovah has revealed his mind and has given a straight answer on this issue. Shortly before Jesus’ ascension to heaven, his disciples asked him again about the timing of the fulfillment of God’s promises. Jesus answered: “It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” (Acts 1:7) On an earlier occasion, Jesus told his disciples: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”—Matthew 24:36.

Clearly, the “knowledge of the times or seasons,” especially when it comes to the future fulfillment of Bible prophecies, is not under human jurisdiction. God has chosen not to reveal such information to us. (Matthew 24:22-44) Could we affect in any way God’s purpose by deciphering “that day and hour” on our own, against his wishes? Obviously, this would be impossible. (Numbers 23:19; Romans 11:33, 34) The Bible states: “To time indefinite the very counsel of Jehovah will stand.” (Psalm 33:11) Being the almighty God, he is always successful.—Isaiah 55:8-11.

Notwithstanding God’s power to keep the “knowledge of the times or seasons . . . in his own jurisdiction,” many still like to speculate. Some become self-appointed prophets of doom. For this reason the apostle Paul gave specific instruction to the Thessalonians regarding the danger of listening to those who speculate about dates. He wrote: “We request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one seduce you in any manner.”—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

Jehovah’s Witnesses firmly believe that God’s purposes for the future are certain of execution at his predetermined time, right down to the day and hour designated by him. (Habakkuk 2:3; 2 Peter 3:9, 10) And we believe that these events will take place in the not-too-distant future. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) However, we do not speculate on or support the theories proliferating today. Surely, neither the year 2000, nor 2001, nor any other time threshold set by humans has anything to do with Jehovah’s timetable.


*** w 2003 12/15 pp. 19-20 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah’s Day ***
IT WILL be a day of battle and fury, of anguish and distress, of darkness and desolation. Jehovah’s "great and fear-inspiring day" is certain to come upon this wicked system of things, even as the Flood drowned the wicked world in Noah’s day. There is no escaping it. Yet, "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe." (Joel 2:30-32; Amos 5:18-20) God will destroy his enemies and save his people. With a sense of urgency, the prophet Zephaniah declares: "The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much." (Zephaniah 1:14) When, though, will this divine judgment be executed?

2 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father," said Jesus. (Matthew 24:36) Since we do not know the precise time, it is vital that we take to heart the words of our yeartext for 2004: "Keep on the watch . . . Prove yourselves ready."—Matthew 24:42, 44.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob are you seem to be a very single minded person and completely sold on the watchtower's doctrines. Unquestioningly loyal. The watchtower must be proud of you. You cannot even SEE the duplicity of thier claims and teachings.


1. Yes, they claim they were not saying 1975 was going to be the end

2. Yes, they claim that 1975 WAS going to be the end. as well as many other years.

They are speaking from both sides of their mouths. They want their cake and eat it too.

You are in denial.

I am tired of listening to you repeat yourself over and over and making me have to repeat myself over and over again.

Since you cannot provide any new arguments and are just repeating yourself, I now post a link back to the first post in this thread so those poor souls unfortunate enough to read this far can just go back into an infinite recursive loop.

Goto: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37539&page=1&pp=16

I acknowledge your denying of the watchtower being a false prophet. I also acknowlege that they claim both to be a prophet and not inspired. I acknowledge they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

I acknowledge this thread is DEAD.


If you cannot acknowledge my points and contribute new information and not just keep blindly repeating yourself, I ask you not to post in my thread anymore, and consider this thread done, fini, cooked, and over with.

The End.

[barryrob]

Barryrob are you seem to be a very single minded person and completely sold on the watchtower's doctrines. Unquestioningly loyal. The watchtower must be proud of you. You cannot even SEE the duplicity of thier claims and teachings.


1. Yes, they claim they were not saying 1975 was going to be the end

2. Yes, they claim that 1975 WAS going to be the end. as well as many other years.

They are speaking from both sides of their mouths. They want their cake and eat it too.

You are in denial.

I am tired of listening to you repeat yourself over and over and making me have to repeat myself over and over again.

Since you cannot provide any new arguments and are just repeating yourself, I now post a link back to the first post in this thread so those poor souls unfortunate enough to read this far can just go back into an infinite recursive loop.

Goto: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37539&page=1&pp=16

I acknowledge your denying of the watchtower being a false prophet. I also acknowlege that they claim both to be a prophet and not inspired. I acknowledge they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

I acknowledge this thread is DEAD.


If you cannot acknowledge my points and contribute new information and not just keep blindly repeating yourself, I ask you not to post in my thread anymore, and consider this thread done, fini, cooked, and over with.

The End.
The truth of any matter by its very nature is repeats it’s self, therefore become a repeat performance e.g. you (or are you are just repeating what other say about us?) say that my brothers did foretell that Armageddon and it did not happen, and they said they did not and could not foretell the time it would happen as God says that no human being can and it did not happen etc. etc.!



You or whom you quote say, that we have done something in connection with 1975 that it is impossible to be done and we say it impossible to be done, God says the same we agree with God and you agree with God and yet we are still wrong????



Who wants his bread buttered on both sides?



I does not take long to see who is right and who is not.



Barryrob

[Sparko]

The truth of any matter by its very nature is repeats it’s self, therefore become a repeat performance e.g. you (or are you are just repeating what other say about us?) say that my brothers did foretell that Armageddon and it did not happen, and they said they did not and could not foretell the time it would happen as God says that no human being can and it did not happen etc. etc.! You can go back and check the posts barryrob, I gave references and even SCANS of many of the pages to back up my claims. But do you acknowledge them? NO! you just find someplace where they printed something contrary to that, and claim that washes them clean somehow. I try to tell you that, no, that does not remove the stain of their errors, it just shows that they are two-faced, and you ignore that point and post more denials, as if THAT washed them clean.

Well no matter how many denials you can find that says they did not predict a certain date, or that they are not inspired, that does not erase the fact that they DO claim to be prophets of God, His chosen channel of communication, and his mouthpiece, which means they are de facto claiming to be inspired, since "inspired" means to speak for God, which they claim they do. And it does not erase the fact that they DID predict many dates, NONE of which came true.

THEREFORE THEY ARE FALSE PROPHETS, ACCORDING TO BOTH THE BIBLE AND THEIR OWN WORDS AGAINST OTHERS WHO DID THE SAME THING.

to come back and say "well false prophets don't admit they were wrong" is a cop out.

1. they never admitted they were wrong until it was too late to deny it any longer (the date passed)
2. It did not stop them from doing it again, and again.


You or whom you quote say, that we have done something in connection with 1975 that it is impossible to be done and we say it impossible to be done, God says the same we agree with God and you agree with God and yet we are still wrong????
READ THE QUOTES! THEY SAID WHAT I QUOTED THEM TO SAY! THEY CLAIMED THE WORLD WOULD END MANY TIMES. THEY WERE WRONG EACH AND EVERY TIME.



Who wants his bread buttered on both sides? Apparently YOU and the WATCHTOWER do.

I does not take long to see who is right and who is not.

No, it sure doesn't Barryrob. You are digging your hole so deep you can't even see the light of day any more.

Again, if you can't contribute anything new to my thread, then let it end here.

[barryrob]

You can go back and check the posts barryrob, I gave references and even SCANS of many of the pages to back up my claims. But do you acknowledge them? NO! you just find someplace where they printed something contrary to that, and claim that washes them clean somehow. I try to tell you that, no, that does not remove the stain of their errors, it just shows that they are two-faced, and you ignore that point and post more denials, as if THAT washed them clean.

Well no matter how many denials you can find that says they did not predict a certain date, or that they are not inspired, that does not erase the fact that they DO claim to be prophets of God, His chosen channel of communication, and his mouthpiece, which means they are de facto claiming to be inspired, since "inspired" means to speak for God, which they claim they do. And it does not erase the fact that they DID predict many dates, NONE of which came true.

THEREFORE THEY ARE FALSE PROPHETS, ACCORDING TO BOTH THE BIBLE AND THEIR OWN WORDS AGAINST OTHERS WHO DID THE SAME THING.

to come back and say "well false prophets don't admit they were wrong" is a cop out.

1. they never admitted they were wrong until it was too late to deny it any longer (the date passed)
2. It did not stop them from doing it again, and again.


READ THE QUOTES! THEY SAID WHAT I QUOTED THEM TO SAY! THEY CLAIMED THE WORLD WOULD END MANY TIMES. THEY WERE WRONG EACH AND EVERY TIME.



Apparently YOU and the WATCHTOWER do.

No, it sure doesn't Barryrob. You are digging your hole so deep you can't even see the light of day any more.

Again, if you can't contribute anything new to my thread, then let it end here.
Done:-

2. The Time is at Hand, 1908, pg 101 ....the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev.16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914, with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.

but did you also read the qualifying statment on the same page:-

"If* our vision be unobstructed by prejudice, when we get they telescope of God's word rightly adjusted we may** see with clearness the character of the events due to take place in the "Day of the Lord" –that we are in the very midst of these events, and that "the Great Day of His Wrath is come."

*"If"
"if —conj. 1 introducing a conditional clause: a on the condition or supposition that; in the event that (if he comes I will tell him; if you are tired we can rest). b (with past tense) implying that the condition is not fulfilled (if I knew I would say). 2 even though (I'll finish it, if it takes me all day). 3 whenever (if I am not sure I ask). 4 whether (see if you can find it). 5 expressing a wish, surprise, or request (if I could just try!; if it isn't my old hat!; if you wouldn't mind?). —n. condition, supposition (too many ifs about it).  if only 1 even if for no other reason than (I'll come if only to see her). 2 (often ellipt.) expression of regret; I wish that (if only I had thought of it). [Old English]."-Oxford Dic.


**"may"
"may v.aux. (3rd sing. present may; past might) 1 expressing: a (often foll. by well for emphasis) possibility (it may be true; you may well lose your way). b permission (may I come in?). c a wish (may he live to regret it). d uncertainty or irony (who may you be?; who are you, may I ask?). 2 in purpose clauses and after wish, fear, etc. (hope he may succeed).  be that as it may (or that is as may be) it is possible (but) (be that as it may, I still want to go). may as well = might as well (see *might1). [Old English]."-Oxford Dic.




As was intimated at the "Battle" did not happen and why they above quote from the same page makes the point they had not got their view of God's Word right, which was pointed out in my posts and:-


*** w1964 2/1 p. 67 More Is needed than Bibles ***
In fact, Bible prophecies cannot be understood by anyone* until God’s due time. Thus Daniel, who was used by God to record many prophecies, said regarding some of them, "I heard, but I could not understand." Why not? Because it was not God’s due time, for which reason God told him: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end." At that time "the ones having insight will understand." And why? Because of those prophecies being fulfilled. In the same way, it was only after Jesus Christ had fulfilled certain prophecies that his apostle Matthew was able to call attention to certain events and show how they fulfilled this prophecy and that.—Dan. 12:8-10; Matt. 2:22, 23; 3:3; 8:17; 21:4, 5; 27:9, 10.

*Would include the Watchtower!!



It in reality it seems to me that you have dug a hole but its not the right size.



Christian Love
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

You are just doing the same thing. It is getting old. You can post 10,000 quotes where the watchtower backs off of their predictions, but it does not nullify the fact that they DID make those predictions many times, and they did not come true. And continued to do so and will do so in the future.

They also claim not to be inspired and also claim they are Jehovah's chosen channel of communication. So you can quote all you want where they say they are not inspired, but that does not nullify the fact that they de facto claim to be inspired by virtue of saying they are Jehovah's mouthpiece, his chosen channel of communication, and the Jeremiah Class.

I am getting pretty tired of having to post this same thing over and over. This is, what? the fourth time I have had to repeat myself and you still are not reading what I am saying and continue to try to post quotes that go contrary to what I posted earlier.

It does not matter what denials you post, it can't nullify what they already said clearly. All you do is show them to be two-faced. You are hurting them further.

That you don't get that is truly confusing to me.

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

You are just doing the same thing. It is getting old. You can post 10,000 quotes where the watchtower backs off of their predictions, but it does not nullify the fact that they DID make those predictions many times, and they did not come true. And continued to do so and will do so in the future.

They also claim not to be inspired and also claim they are Jehovah's chosen channel of communication. So you can quote all you want where they say they are not inspired, but that does not nullify the fact that they de facto claim to be inspired by virtue of saying they are Jehovah's mouthpiece, his chosen channel of communication, and the Jeremiah Class.

I am getting pretty tired of having to post this same thing over and over. This is, what? the fourth time I have had to repeat myself and you still are not reading what I am saying and continue to try to post quotes that go contrary to what I posted earlier.

It does not matter what denials you post, it can't nullify what they already said clearly. All you do is show them to be two-faced. You are hurting them further.

That you don't get that is truly confusing to me.
This is one reason I am pleased and proud to be a JW as I do not find Dogmatism among my brothers, when they err they are humble enough to admit it openly (whether others except it is by the way) and are willing to correct their thinking to be in harmony with scripture, which I find to be missing in the churches as they still cling to bygone ancient dogmas which have been show many time to be in error on TW.

Thanking you for your time

Barryrob

[Bammer]

This is one reason I am pleased and proud to be a JW as I do not find Dogmatism among my brothers, when they err they are humble enough to admit it openly (whether others except it is by the way) and are willing to correct their thinking to be in harmony with scripture, which I find to be missing in the churches as they still cling to bygone ancient dogmas which have been show many time to be in error on TW.

Thanking you for your time

Barryrob

Hi guys. I realize this thread has probably been "worn out", but I have a question relating to this that I would like your comments on.

I just stumbled on 1 Cor 15:12-16 and thought of this thread.

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

So what is Paul saying here? As I read it, he is saying that:
- He and the brothers have been preaching that Christ has been raised.
- Therefore, if Christ has not been raised, they are false witnesses.

Could one extrapolate this?

If a person preaches a doctrine about God and this doctrine turns out to be wrong, that person would be a false witnesses. Do you believe this is the implication of the scripture?

Since everyone here agrees JWs have preached doctrines that turned out to be false, can JWs therefore be labelled as "false witnesses"?

Best regards
Bammer

[Sparko]

Hi guys. I realize this thread has probably been "worn out", but I have a question relating to this that I would like your comments on.

I just stumbled on 1 Cor 15:12-16 and thought of this thread.

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

So what is Paul saying here? As I read it, he is saying that:
- He and the brothers have been preaching that Christ has been raised.
- Therefore, if Christ has not been raised, they are false witnesses.

Could one extrapolate this?

If a person preaches a doctrine about God and this doctrine turns out to be wrong, that person would be a false witnesses. Do you believe this is the implication of the scripture?

Since everyone here agrees JWs have preached doctrines that turned out to be false, can JWs therefore be labelled as "false witnesses"?

Best regards
Bammer

Bammer, Paul is preaching against those people who said that Jesus was raised in spirit only and not bodily.

But basically the gist is, Christianity rests on the bodily resurrection of Christ. If Jesus really did not rise from the dead, physically, and Paul and the others have been preaching that he did, then that means they are liars and every Christian's faith is misplaced.

Paul and the othe apostles were in the position to KNOW whether Jesus was alive and well or not in his resurrected body. The apostles and Paul had witnessed him. So for people to go around claiming that Jesus did not come back to life, was to call Paul and the other Apostles liars.

So, in short, if someone does preach a false doctrine knowingly, then by definition they are liars (false witnesses)

But that is beyond what I was trying to show in this thread. I was speaking of another aspect of falsity: false prophets. In that when someone says they are speaking for God and what they say does not come to pass, then it becomes obvious that they were not speaking for God. That makes them false prophets. If they apologize later, it still does not clean up the fact that they were false prophets.

Being a false witness is different in that the person is preaching something they know is false. A false prophet can utterly believe that they are truly speaking for God, and be utterly wrong and thus be a false prophet. A false witness has to KNOW he is being false.

So a person who knows they don't speak for God, yet claims they do, and predicts something that doesn't happen, then they are both false prophet and false witness.

I let you draw your one conclusions.

[Bammer]

But basically the gist is, Christianity rests on the bodily resurrection of Christ. If Jesus really did not rise from the dead, physically, and Paul and the others have been preaching that he did, then that means they are liars and every Christian's faith is misplaced.

Paul sometimes used some rather strange reasoning, and this is certainly one of those times. He is saying that if there is no resurrection of the dead, christians are to be pitied more than all men, because then basically his followers have wasted their lives. Not a very uplifting form of preaching but nevertheless this was what Paul chose to write.

When I read this passage I especially notice 15:14 where Paul says that his preaching is useless if there is no resurrection. I believe Paul is here speaking of how his own faith and his preaching of his faith would have been in vain, and that this shows that in the next verse he is not talking about whether or not he and the brothers were lying or not.

However, I can understand why you believe Paul is talking about whether he would be lying or not, since he does mention in this passage and others, that he has testified about the resurrection of Christ.

Anyway, this is getting a bit of topic, but thanks for your comments.

Best regards
Bammer

[barryrob]

Paul sometimes used some rather strange reasoning, and this is certainly one of those times. He is saying that if there is no resurrection of the dead, christians are to be pitied more than all men, because then basically his followers have wasted their lives. Not a very uplifting form of preaching but nevertheless this was what Paul chose to write.

When I read this passage I especially notice 15:14 where Paul says that his preaching is useless if there is no resurrection. I believe Paul is here speaking of how his own faith and his preaching of his faith would have been in vain, and that this shows that in the next verse he is not talking about whether or not he and the brothers were lying or not.

However, I can understand why you believe Paul is talking about whether he would be lying or not, since he does mention in this passage and others, that he has testified about the resurrection of Christ.

Anyway, this is getting a bit of topic, but thanks for your comments.

Best regards
Bammer
Perhaps Paul was rooting out the Greek philosophical thought that the soul survived after the death (as part of the cosmic Soul) of the Body which may have been contaminating the Congregations teachings, thus doing away with the need for a resurrection (standing up) because at death all conscious existence ceases, the soul dies:-

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all

This would also have had the effect of watering down the value of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. So if the ones in the Corinthian Congregation rejected this false teaching then they would not be false witnesses, if they stayed in harmony with what the Scriptures said in this subject.

Barryrob

[dreece]

But barryrob,

I gave you actual quotes where they DID claim to be prophets and inspired, and were the very mouthpiece of Jehovah. I did not make those quotes up, and I can dig up actual scans for many of them.

Let me simplify matters for you.
John 21:22-24
Jesus disciples said that that disciple would not die; this is how they interpreted Jesus' words. Maybe they thought he would live for many centuries to see Jesus return, or that Christ would return in the first century before that disciple died. In any case, the situation was this:

1) They said [maybe if you were thinking of JWs you'd say PREDICTED/PROPHCIED] something about that disciple that did not come to pass.

2) These were the Apostles, men who spoke in Jehovah's name

3) These very men wrote the Gospel and were thus INSPIRED

4) That that disciple would not die, wasn't just someone's isolated opinion, for it went ABROAD AMONG THE BRETHREN


Now, surely these were not false prophets! Can you tell me why?

They seem to meet your criteria of false prophets, so I'm wondering how you can exempt them but condem JWs.

Does the Bible say that amount of false prophecies determines if one is a false prophet? Does it say that because the failed predictions were not many that he is not a false prophet? Surely that's not a Scriptural excuse.

Is it because this was not Church doctrine? Doesn't matter how many people accept or reject false prophecies; they are still false! Poor excuse.


How about this: Can you show me from the Bible any false prophets who did not claim to be INSPIRED through visions/dreams/angels/hearing God's voice, etc? Isn't that the CONSISTENT caliber of false prophets in the Bible? Jer 23:10-18; 28:1-4, 10-17; Eze 13:1-4, 6-9, 16. JWs don't fit in that category, and you can't make em' fit!

In the Gospels it is said that these false prophets Jesus was warning us about would come with miracles; what miracles do JWs practice that leads you to ID us as the culprits? Matt 24:23-26; 7:15-23. Notice too that the false prophets Jesus warns of would say look! he is in this part of earth or that part of earth; such false prophets point only to a VISIBLE coming, but JWs pointed to an INVISIBLE coming from the start, so we are not the false prophets Jesus warned about!

What quote did you ever give where we claimed to be INSPIRED?


Think about it
dreece

[Sparko]

Let me simplify matters for you.
John 21:22-24
Jesus disciples said that that disciple would not die; this is how they interpreted Jesus' words. Maybe they thought he would live for many centuries to see Jesus return, or that Christ would return in the first century before that disciple died. In any case, the situation was this:

1) They said [maybe if you were thinking of JWs you'd say PREDICTED/PROPHCIED] something about that disciple that did not come to pass.

2) These were the Apostles, men who spoke in Jehovah's name

3) These very men wrote the Gospel and were thus INSPIRED

4) That that disciple would not die, wasn't just someone's isolated opinion, for it went ABROAD AMONG THE BRETHREN


Now, surely these were not false prophets! Can you tell me why?

They were not prophesying anything. They were spreading a rumor. One that scripture clearly puts down as false because it says Jesus did not say the disciple would not die, but that
"Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"



What quote did you ever give where we claimed to be INSPIRED?
again, READ THE THREAD!!!!


stop dredging up long dead threads and NOT READING THEM! You bust in and ask for information and regurgitate stuf that has already been discussed.

READ THE THREAD. READ THE THREAD. READ THE THREAD.

[dreece]

[QUOTE=Sparko;1992295][/COLOR]They were not prophesying anything. They were spreading a rumor. One that scripture clearly puts down as false because it says Jesus did not say the disciple would not die, but that
"Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

They were saying that that disciple would not die; he did die, they were wrong. To say that someone will not die is to talk about that person's future; so what's the difference between this and prophecying?

Had it been JWs saying that Charles Taze Russell would not die, you're sort would seize his death as proof of our prophecying falsely, but since it was the Apostles, oooooooh no, must make an excuse for them!

The text doesn't call it a rumor, the Greek says: "Wentforth therefore this the word [ho logos] into the brothers." It calls this saying "THE WORD;" in any case, they believed it, didn't they? The apostles could teach only what they believed, the same is true of JWs!

If you define prophesying as telling others what will happen in the future, then they were prophesying John's future, that he would not die! Had JWs call their so-called false prophecies mere RUMOURS, I'm sure you wouldn't accept that!

Guess that what it comes down to, BIAS.

[Sparko]

[quote=Sparko;1992295][/color]They were not prophesying anything. They were spreading a rumor. One that scripture clearly puts down as false because it says Jesus did not say the disciple would not die, but that
"Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

They were saying that that disciple would not die; he did die, they were wrong. To say that someone will not die is to talk about that person's future; so what's the difference between this and prophecying?

Prophesying is saying GOD is telling you what is going to happen and you are speaking for Him. Just claiming something is going to happen in the future is not prophesying. That is predicting.

The Watchtower claims to be getting it's prophesies direct from Jehovah, they claim to be Jehovah's mouthpiece and say only what he tells them to say. That makes them prophets. And the fact that what they have claimed in the past has not come true, means they are FALSE prophets.





If you define prophesying as telling others what will happen in the future, then they were prophesying John's future,

I don't define prophesy as that. As you see above. neither does anyone else. For the Watchtower to claim to be the "prophet class" and the "mouthpiece of Jehovah" and then constantly make false prophesies only shows that they are FALSE prophets. They deserve only stoning.


besides, the watcthtower are also false prophets according to their OWN definition as I said in the first post in this thread:

Awake, 10/8/1968, pg23..."those in times past who predicted an “end of the world”, even announcing a specific date...they were guilty of false prophesying."

Well guess what? The watchtower did exactly that many times! and while claiming to be Jehovah's mouthpiece!


The Nations shall know 1971, pg 58-62,....as a mouthpiece and active agent...... commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah...
Wt,3/15/1972, pg 189 ....commission to speak as a “prophet” in His name....
Wt,9/1/1979, pg 29,...those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name......back up their message by quoting the words, “This is what Jehovah has said.”
Zion’s Wt, 9/15/1895, pg 1867, reprint,.....as God’s mouthpiece in.....
Zion’s Wt, 7/15/1906, pg 382, reprint,.....the truths I present, as God’s mouthpiece.....
Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 203 He merely uses his "servant" class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 205 Jehovah speaks to us through his Son....He has appointed his "faithful and wise servant", who is his visible mouthpiece...These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals...
Informant(KM), 1/1956, pg 1, ..And how does he speak? Through his appointed channel of communication- his collective congregation of anointed ones...the Watchtower...to dispense Jehovah's communications.
Wt, 6/15/1957, pg 370 identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day......respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is his provision.
Wt, 1/15/1959, pg 40, 41 ....Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his word in their mouths.
Wt, 7/15/1960, pg 439,...collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth.....
Wt, 9/1/1991, pg 19,.....faithful and discreet slave has also been called God’s channel of communication,...
Wt, 2/1/1957, pg 79, 80, God interprets and teaches, through Christ the Chief Servant, who in turn uses the discreet slave as the visible channel, the viable theocratic organization...
Holy Spirit 1976, pg 175, 176 He put his word in the mouth of his chosen people ....He has put his word, his message of the hour, into the mouth of the spiritual remnant.
Wt, 10/15/1980, pg 17 God gives his humble servants special knowledge that others do not have... having advance knowledge from Jehovah, his servants are equipped .....They claim to be Jehovah's prophets! They are consistantly WRONG. That makes them LIARS and FALSE Prophets.

Pretty simple Dreece. You are defending Satan.

[dreece]

[quote=dreece;1993573]

[/COLOR]Prophesying is saying GOD is telling you what is going to happen and you are speaking for Him. Just claiming something is going to happen in the future is not prophesying. That is predicting.

Peter said to Jesus: "Lord, what will this man do?" JESUS said to him: "If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me." IN CONSEQUENCE, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die." John 21:21-23.

This saying [that that disciple would not die], went out IN CONSEQUENCE of what? It was because they MISINTERPRETED what JESUS said! So actually, they were speaking for GOD since they were giving their understanding of JESUS' words; this WRONG INTERPRETATION was an interpretation of what JESUS said, thus, they were speaking for him, just as Jehovah's Witnesses do! When they interpret JESUS' words incorrectly and tell the brothers that that disciple will not sie, you excuse them. Yet when JWs do it you call us false prophets; its BIAS, plain and simple. But I don't expect any less. John 15:18, 19!

The Watchtower claims to be getting it's prophesies direct from Jehovah, they claim to be Jehovah's mouthpiece and say only what he tells them to say. That makes them prophets. And the fact that what they have claimed in the past has not come true, means they are FALSE prophets.

Again you don't judge JWs by the same standard as the apostles, and that's why you can't explain away even John 21:21-23 for starters. They were saying that that disciple would not die [= future; his death proves them wrong]; this was their interpretation of JESUS' words just as what JWs taught was an interpretation of Bible verses [= getting info from Jesus, God]; and as Apostles, they were God's mouthpiece, his spokemen, just as the faithful and discreet slave is today; so this puts them entirely in the same bracket as JWs!

When someone in the first century asked: 'how do you know that that disciple would not die?' What do you think the apostles would have said? "Uhhhh; it was a rumor I heard?" No! They would have pointed people back to JESUS' words as the source of their belief, whch is what JWs have done in the past. You could well call the apostles false prophets if you'd call us so!




I don't define prophesy as that. As you see above. neither does anyone else. For the Watchtower to claim to be the "prophet class" and the "mouthpiece of Jehovah" and then constantly make false prophesies only shows that they are FALSE prophets. They deserve only stoning.


besides, the watcthtower are also false prophets according to their OWN definition as I said in the first post in this thread:

Awake, 10/8/1968, pg23..."those in times past who predicted an “end of the world”, even announcing a specific date...they were guilty of false prophesying."

Geeeee; I'd sure appreciate a FULL quote of that line in context instead of this fragmented [....] excuse for a quote." As I have already explained, misinterpreting Scripture is not the same as false prophsying. Further; none of the quote you nor anyone else has provided showed that JWs ever claimed to be INSPIRED of God.

To illusrate: if I quote Rev 20:2 and tell the public that Satan will be imprisoned for 1000 years; I could say that since my info comes from the Bible, that I got it from GOD; also, since he commanded me to preach the good news (Matt 28:19, 20) I could say that I was speaking for him. I'd certainly give him the credit! So does this prephcy that I utter make me a true prophet? No. Why? I'm merely repeating from a book a previous prophecy already recorded by the real prophet; but I wasn't INSPIRED by God through visions, dreams, God's audible voice, angelic visitors, etc.! Since I claimed, NO INSPIRATION, then I'm not a prophet in the same sense that Jeremiah and Isaiah were, but I'm merely reminding pepople of what the prophet already wrote!
If what I say does not come true, IT DOESN'T MAKE ME A FALSE PROPHET ANY MORE THAN HAD IT COME TRUE I WOULD BE A REAL ONE! It merely shows that I misunderstood what the prophet said, which is the very thing that happened to JWs and the apostles and many others in the Bible.

Well guess what? The watchtower did exactly that many times! and while claiming to be Jehovah's mouthpiece!


The Nations shall know 1971, pg 58-62,....as a mouthpiece and active agent...... commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah...
Wt,3/15/1972, pg 189 ....commission to speak as a “prophet” in His name....
Wt,9/1/1979, pg 29,...those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name......back up their message by quoting the words, “This is what Jehovah has said.”
Zion’s Wt, 9/15/1895, pg 1867, reprint,.....as God’s mouthpiece in.....
Zion’s Wt, 7/15/1906, pg 382, reprint,.....the truths I present, as God’s mouthpiece.....
Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 203 He merely uses his "servant" class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.
Wt, 7/1/1943, pg 205 Jehovah speaks to us through his Son....He has appointed his "faithful and wise servant", who is his visible mouthpiece...These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals...
Informant(KM), 1/1956, pg 1, ..And how does he speak? Through his appointed channel of communication- his collective congregation of anointed ones...the Watchtower...to dispense Jehovah's communications.
Wt, 6/15/1957, pg 370 identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day......respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is his provision.
Wt, 1/15/1959, pg 40, 41 ....Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his word in their mouths.
Wt, 7/15/1960, pg 439,...collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth.....
Wt, 9/1/1991, pg 19,.....faithful and discreet slave has also been called God’s channel of communication,...
Wt, 2/1/1957, pg 79, 80, God interprets and teaches, through Christ the Chief Servant, who in turn uses the discreet slave as the visible channel, the viable theocratic organization...
Holy Spirit 1976, pg 175, 176 He put his word in the mouth of his chosen people ....He has put his word, his message of the hour, into the mouth of the spiritual remnant.
Wt, 10/15/1980, pg 17 God gives his humble servants special knowledge that others do not have... having advance knowledge from Jehovah, his servants are equipped .....They claim to be Jehovah's prophets! They are consistantly WRONG. That makes them LIARS and FALSE Prophets.

Pretty simple Dreece. You are defending Satan.

None of these quotes talk about DIVINE INSPIRATION, but in any case, we are speaking for Jehovah as the apostles in John 21:21-23 were, and sometimes have WRONG INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture just as the apostles did. They are other examples I could show you, but I don't like to complicate a simple issue.

Based on how you define false prophets, BOTH JWs and the early apostles were false prophets: 1) speak for GOD, 2) state future events, 3) Get it wrong.

[Sparko]

[quote=Sparko;1993696]

None of these quotes talk about DIVINE INSPIRATION, but in any case, we are speaking for Jehovah as the apostles in John 21:21-23 were, and sometimes have WRONG INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture just as the apostles did. They are other examples I could show you, but I don't like to complicate a simple issue.

Based on how you define false prophets, BOTH JWs and the early apostles were false prophets: 1) speak for GOD, 2) state future events, 3) Get it wrong.

What????? They directly CLAIM TO BE PROPHETS OF JEHOVAH!!!!

Then they made prophesies that did NOT come true.

Conclusion: They are FALSE prophets.

All of your wiggling does nothing to change that. That is the core of this thread and you have done nothing to prove it wrong.

Sheesh Dreece. maybe you should spend more time reading the bible instead of posting on forums.