When and why did you first realize that Jesus was not Almighty God?

[barryrob]

When and why did you first realize that Jesus was not Almighty God?

For me it was quite simple. At John 20:17 Jesus said that His Father was His God:-

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God, and your God.

As he said that his God was also the God of his "brothers" whom he had show them how to worship in the correct way, he thus could not possible be Almighty God himself!

Barryrob

[Trout]

Wow, the Mormons claim the exact same thing.

[NonTrinitarian]

When I was young I never believed Jesus was God. After all, in Sunday School we called Jesus God's Son. Jesus prayed to God. Said God sent him. Etc. Then when I was about 10 my older sister told me Jesus was God. I argued with her until I was blue in the face. She showed me John 1:1 but I didn't fully get it. I questioned my SS teacher and she confirmed what my sister said and told me it was an advanced teaching that I would learn later. So I accepted it (though I didn't really accept it) and went on. Then we got into the next class level and started looking at all the verses calling Jesus "God".

I then saw the light (if you can call it that) and began believing Jesus was God. Then in college a JW asked me if I had ever looked at all the verses that suggest Jesus is not God? He asked when I thought the disciples finally learned Jesus was God? I popped him with several "knock out verses" I thought would shut him up and he answered them with ease. This peaked my curiosity so I began really studying it, buying Walter Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults" along with a few other "Trinitarian" books and anti-JW books. I set out to prove JW's wrong.

I think it's obvious how it went.

So, I believed Jesus was not God in the beginning, switched to him being God because my SS teacher told me he was and then switched back when I decided to look at more verses than just John 1:1; 8:58 and 20:28. The literally HUNDREDS of verses that clearly distinguish Jesus from God was too over-whelming for me. I think they would be for all if they would actually consider them.

[Berean Todd]

:shrug: Well, seeing as I'm not apostate, I fully affirm the divinity of Christ, sorry ...

and as for your scripture you also have Thomas falling at Christ's feet and calling Him his Lord and God and Jesus not rebuking him in the least bit.

[Ron Macy]

Berean Todd,
:shrug: Well, seeing as I'm not apostate, I fully affirm the divinity of Christ, sorry ...


I don't think one needs ever to apologize for what they believe.

You statement, "Well, seeing as I'm not apostate,..." is an ad hominem, though. It accuses someone else of being apostate. (At least it seems to me it does.) We only have your authority for the truth of this statement. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.

What makes the other person apostate? What proves you are not apostate? Is it simply because you believe in the divinity (deity) of Jesus and someone else doesn't? The whole discussion is whether or not the Bible teaches Jesus is God. You contend for one side; I and others contend for the other side.

It is God who will ultimately decide which of us us apostate. Frankly, I am convinced God is a little more forgiving than we like to give Him credit. I trust He will look at my heart (and yours) and over look our doctrinal shortcomings and allow us into His Kingdom based on our faith in Him.

Ron

[NonTrinitarian]

:shrug: Well, seeing as I'm not apostate, I fully affirm the divinity of Christ, sorry ...

and as for your scripture you also have Thomas falling at Christ's feet and calling Him his Lord and God and Jesus not rebuking him in the least bit. So you believed Jesus was God as a three year old when your parents told you he was God's Son? I'm thinking you didn't. BTW, John 20:28 has been discussed in the JW forum as wel as the Christology forum. If you want to talk about it, go read those first and post there, not here.

The only thing you need to apologize for is commenting in this thread without participating in the subject requested by the thread's author.

[adampastor]

When and why did you first realize that Jesus was not Almighty God?For me, the verse which began to play on my mind was John 5:19

(John 5:19) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: ...

I began to think that if Jesus is GOD, how could GOD do nothing of himself?

Almighty GOD is Almighty GOD because He is Almighty GOD all by Himself!
How then could he then say he could do nothing of himself?

It was thoughts like this and verses like John 5:19, 30; 8:28, 14:10 etc that help begin my journey in realizing that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed NOT Almighty GOD!

[Jedidiah]

The whole discussion is whether or not the Bible teaches Jesus is God. Ron, this is not correct! The OP assumes that Jesus is not divine and asks when readers came to believe this.

The only thing you need to apologize for is commenting in this thread without participating in the subject requested by the thread's author.It is quite within the realm of this discussion to comment that one has not embraced this heresy at all. This is not such a limited forum as to require that all posters agree with the OP.

Further . . .

I was never taught of Jesus divinity as a child. When I heard others claim Jesus was God, I asked my folks. They told me that Jesus was not God but the Son of God. I did not understand, but accepted what they said. In later years, upon discovering that Jesus was indeed the Savior of sinning mankind, I was forced to make a determination on the issue of the divinity. It was contrary to all I held dear, so it took some significant study. I have now no question that the Bible describes Jesus as Divine. I suppose that makes me A Trinitarian.

beeman

[NonTrinitarian]

It is quite within the realm of this discussion to comment that one has not embraced this heresy at all. This is not such a limited forum as to require that all posters agree with the OP.
That's funny. I've responded in other posts about 'Trinitarian' materials and Dee Dee reprimended me for doing such. Apparenlty since the person was asking for "Trinitarian" references NO ONE who was not supplying a Trinitarian reference could participate. Apparently you are wrong about about the thought that "This is not such a limited forum as to require that all posters agree with the OP". This post specifically asked for when you first determined when Jesus was NOT God. Since the poster did NOT address the question, he should have been reprimended. But I guess non-Trinitarian arguments (and references) are too threatening to some Trinitarians while it's perfectly fine for a Trinitarian to ignore a non-Trinitarian poster's request.

[Jedidiah]

That's funny. I've responded in other posts about 'Trinitarian' materials and Dee Dee reprimended me for doing such. Apparenlty since the person was asking for "Trinitarian" references NO ONE who was not supplying a Trinitarian reference could participate. Apparently you are wrong about about the thought that "This is not such a limited forum as to require that all posters agree with the OP". This post specifically asked for when you first determined when Jesus was NOT God. Since the poster did NOT address the question, he should have been reprimended. But I guess non-Trinitarian arguments (and references) are too threatening to some Trinitarians while it's perfectly fine for a Trinitarian to ignore a non-Trinitarian poster's request.Well since my response is "too threatening" I will apologize for joining the discussion. Carry on.

[NonTrinitarian]

Well since my response is "too threatening" I will apologize for joining the discussion. Carry on.
It's not threatening at all to the Trinitarian moderators. That's why your post is still here. (not threatening to us either since there was no argument in it)

I'm just pointing out a double standard but we're used to it. We see it alot in biblical exegesis as well.

[barryrob]

Ron, this is not correct! The OP assumes that Jesus is not divine and asks when readers came to believe this.

It is quite within the realm of this discussion to comment that one has not embraced this heresy at all. This is not such a limited forum as to require that all posters agree with the OP.

Further . . .

I was never taught of Jesus divinity as a child. When I heard others claim Jesus was God, I asked my folks. They told me that Jesus was not God but the Son of God. I did not understand, but accepted what they said. In later years, upon discovering that Jesus was indeed the Savior of sinning mankind, I was forced to make a determination on the issue of the divinity. It was contrary to all I held dear, so it took some significant study. I have now no question that the Bible describes Jesus as Divine. I suppose that makes me A Trinitarian.

beemanI do not excpet the trinity as Biblical, but I do except Jesus as "Divine" but that does not make him God:-

"divine —adj. (diviner, divinest) 1 a of, from, or like God or a god. b sacred.
2 colloq. excellent; delightful. —v. (-ning) 1 discover by intuition or guessing. 2 foresee. 3 practise divination. —n. theologian or clergyman. divinely adv. [Latin divinus]."-Oxford Dic.

Hence the way I except John 1:1 as reading that Jesus "a god" rendering to him his due and not that which belongs to Almighty God only.

Food for thought.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

For me, the verse which began to play on my mind was John 5:19

(John 5:19) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: ...

I began to think that if Jesus is GOD, how could GOD do nothing of himself?

Almighty GOD is Almighty GOD because He is Almighty GOD all by Himself!
How then could he then say he could do nothing of himself?

It was thoughts like this and verses like John 5:19, 30; 8:28, 14:10 etc that help begin my journey in realizing that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed NOT Almighty GOD!

Good points
Barryrob

[dizzle]

editied: Barry let me know if you wish this thread to have Arian participation only

[Ron Macy]

Dee Dee,
editied: Barry let me know if you wish this thread to have Arian participation only
It should be noted not all non-trinitarians are Arian.

Ron

[adampastor]

That's right. For I am certainly no Arian!

[barryrob]

editied: Barry let me know if you wish this thread to have Arian participation only
If any answer relates to or about the question theme to a reasonable degree then anybody and every body should be welcome, what do you think?

Barryrob

[barryrob]

If any answer relates to or about the question theme to a reasonable degree then anybody and every body should be welcome, what do you think?

Barryrob
Sounds OK to me.
Barryrob

[Magdalenbrother]

I realized that Jesus was not God when I started paying attention to what Paul says in his epistles. I realized that he makes a clear distinction between Jesus and the Father whom he always calls God, whereas Jesus is only Christos and soter and kurios.