Revelation On Only Begotten Son Of God [Archive]

Squeakybro

September 25th 2004, 09:02 PM

JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
JESUS IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I Jn 5:5
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Acts 2:22
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Joh 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:46-48
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Matt 3:16-17
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
I Jn 4:9
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
48 "I am the bread of life.
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
John 3:13
13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 5:37-40
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Heb 1:1-3
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:5-6
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son"?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
John 5:22-23
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
I Jn 4:15
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
I Jn 4:2-3
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
I Jn 4:4-6
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
John 3:34-36
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 3:33
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
John 10:37-38
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
Phil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Gal 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
I Jn 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Matt 10:33-34
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
1 Cor 8:4-6
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
John 8:36
36 "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone
Heb 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
(NKJ)
XXX We can see that God cannot be tempted, and we can see that Jesus was tempted the same as we are. The revelation I received here shows me that God was in Christ. So we have one body with two Spirits in it. Is this possible, yes because your spirit is in your body along with the Holy Spirit along with unclean spirits along even the devil. So it is no great feat to recognize that God was in Jesus' body along with Jesus' Spirit along with the Holy Spirit. We can also see from the revelation that we as a people have never heard Gods voice nor seen His form. But we as a people seen Jesus and heard His voice. Now if the only way to the Father is through Jesus, and we cant get there any other way. Then we want to be sure we have the right Jesus to follow. But If Jesus is God as some confess, then the Jesus the bible talks about didnt exsist. And if the Jesus the bible talks about doesnt exsist, we cant get to the Father. And we also know that the Holy Spirit isnt God, because we are suppose to hear and learn from the Holy Spirit, but yet we have never heard Gods voice nor seen His form. And we can see that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit because Jesus said that we couldnt receive the Holy Spirit until He(Jesus) left and went to heaven. And in John we can see why Jesus prayed to God that we the people become one with them in the same way that they are one.
You should take special notice at Rev 3 where Jesus says He was created. And also Col 1-15 And being created means He isnt God, because God does all the creating.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

Sparko

September 27th 2004, 12:48 PM

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10)

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

John 4:42 "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"

Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." 7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

John1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matthew 11:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+11:25&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Matthew 16:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+16:17&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

ZZZ
and it was given to me as truth from the holy scripture and from the Father, and the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, and lo, YHWH himself. This is the ultimate revelation and you have not reached that level yet, Squeekybro. Pray to God for the truth and for wisdom and it shall be given.

James 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JAS+1:5&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Squeakybro

September 27th 2004, 01:22 PM

I can see your stumbling at the He's and Him's. Maybe this will help.
GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR
2 Cor 5:18
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God(Father) commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator(Father).
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ(Jesus), the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ(Jesus) is God(Father).
Eph 2:10
10 For we are His(Father) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God(Father) prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 3:8-11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God(Father) who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God(Father) might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He(Father) accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Col 1:13-20
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His(Father) love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
17 And He(Father) is before all things, and in Him(Father) all things consist.
18 And He(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He(Jesus) may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him(Jesus) all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him(Father) to reconcile all things to Himself(Father), by Him(Jesus), whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His(Jesus) cross.
Rev 4:11
11 "You are worthy, O Lord(Father), to receive glory and honor and power; for You(Father) created all things, and by Your(Father) will they exist and were created."
Mark 10:6
6 "But from the beginning of the creation, God(Father) 'made them male and female.'
Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His(Father) invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His(Father) eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
John 5:37-40
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me(Jesus), has testified of Me(Jesus). You have neither heard His(Father) voice at any time, nor seen His (Father) form.
38 "But you do not have His(Father) word abiding in you, because whom He(Father) sent, Him(Jesus) you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me(Jesus).
40 "But you are not willing to come to Me(Jesus) that you may have life.
(NKJ)
THROUGH CHRIST---REASON FOR WAS CHRIST
xxxThe deffinition of through- is reason for. So God created everything through or for the reason of Jesus. God created everything for Jesus sake.

Heb 1:1-6
1 God(Father), who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His(Father) Son(Jesus), whom He(Father) has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He(Father) made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His(Father) glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His(Father) power, when He(Jesus) had by Himself(Jesus) purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty(Father) on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He(Jesus) has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He(Father) ever say: "You(Jesus) are My(Father) Son(Jesus), today I(Father) have begotten You(Jesus)"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He(Jesus) shall be to Me(Father) a Son"?
6 But when He(Father) again brings the firstborn(Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says: "Let all the angels of God(Father) worship Him(Jesus)."
2 Cor 3:4
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God(Father).
Gal 4:7
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God(Father) through Christ(Jesus).
Phil 4:7
7 and the peace of God(Father), which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Phil 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God(Father) through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:21
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God(Father) was in Christ(Jesus) reconciling the world to Himself(Father), not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

xxx God the Father done all the creating. God the Father sent His Son Jesus to pay for our sins. And to be an example of how to worship God the Father in the right Spirit. God created Jesus first before anything else. Then God had someone to love. God had someone to give to, but Jesus didnt have anyone that He could give to. So God created everything else through Jesus or for Jesus. The heavens and the earth were created for Jesus. Now to purchase them Jesus had to die on the cross. We all have to prove ourselves to God. Jesus proved Himself, and made the way that we can prove ourselves.
GOD EVEN CREATED JESUS
John 17:5
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me(Jesus) together with Yourself(Father), with the glory which I(Jesus) had with You(Father) before the world was.
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
(NKJ)

Xavier

September 27th 2004, 01:31 PM

Discussions on the Nature of Christ go in Christology... :smile:

Sparko

September 27th 2004, 04:38 PM

Actually I just figured if someone did the same thing to you Squeekybro as you are doing in your posts, you would get a clue.

Apparently not.

Sparko

September 27th 2004, 04:49 PM

I can see your stumbling at the He's and Him's. Maybe this will help.
GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR

Col 1:13-20

15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
Actually I just figured if someone did the same thing to you Squeekybro as you are doing in your posts, you would get a clue.

Apparently not.

...and you apparently don't understand grammar. You arbitrarily assign "Father" and "Jesus" to "Him" wherever it pleases you to do so, even where the rules of greek and english grammar won't allow it. You can't make the word "him" in one part of a sentence mean "father" and two words later mean the "son" - It has to refer to the last subject in the paragraph, Jesus.

Any other reading is wrong by any grammatical standard.

You apparently have not reached the true level of enlightenment, that is the level of "Light Of Truth Revelation." You seem to be stuck in the food and beverage revelation stages. After you have been a Christian as long as I have you will come to understand that those stages of revelation are for mere children in the faith, and you must pass beyond that to comprehend the true revelation. :ahem:

Squeakybro

September 28th 2004, 05:31 PM

you said
You can't make the word "him" in one part of a sentence mean "father" and two words later mean the "son" - It has to refer to the last subject in the paragraph, Jesus.

Any other reading is wrong by any grammatical standard.

I said
I will be sure to let the Lord know that you have some reading rules He doesnt know about yet. Dont you know how the Word was originally written. Grammer is something man put in. And apparently the devil had something to do with it. If you knew the Holy Spirit and that He is the teacher not some english teacher you wouldnt be straining out a gnat.

Matt 23:24
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
(KJV)

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 06:31 PM

Dont you know how the Word was originally written. Grammer is something man put in. And apparently the devil had something to do with it.
invented So grammar was by the Without? I guess another intrinsic I better stop then it, eh? part Grammar is an of. can't Devil it, you language person understand using.

Raptor

September 28th 2004, 06:45 PM

invented So grammar was by the Without? I guess another intrinsic I better stop then it, eh? part Grammar is an of. can't Devil it, you language person understand using.

Use grammar you will.

:yoda:

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 06:50 PM

Devil, use not I grammar will from it the!

Xavier

September 28th 2004, 06:52 PM

like it's Latin again all over just.

Raptor

September 28th 2004, 06:53 PM

owhay boutaay igpay atinlay? siay tiay evilday otay?

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 06:55 PM

good doing are you this read can you if.

Xavier

September 28th 2004, 06:56 PM

good doing are you this read can you if.
Latin blame do I.

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 07:03 PM

owhay boutaay igpay atinlay? siay tiay evilday otay?
Iway on'tday inkthay osay. Ustjay ethay ammargray usedway inway
igpay atinlay isway omfray ethay evilday. Ordsway = Oodgay --
Ammargray = Adbay

Xavier

September 28th 2004, 07:06 PM

:rofl:

{Tim}

September 28th 2004, 07:25 PM

I will be sure to let the Lord know that you have some reading rules He doesnt know about yet. Dont you know how the Word was originally written. Grammer is something man put in. And apparently the devil had something to do with it. If you knew the Holy Spirit and that He is the teacher not some english teacher you wouldnt be straining out a gnat.
LOL - "grammar is of the devil, 'cos it means I can't reinterpret the bible the way I want!" :wink:

Tim

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 07:31 PM

:rofl:
:huh:

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 07:34 PM

LOL - "grammar is of the devil, 'cos it means I can't reinterpret the bible the way I want!" :wink:

TimUsed you Grammar! Tim devil you are the! Devil the of is grammar!

{Tim}

September 28th 2004, 08:21 PM

Used you Grammar! Tim devil you are the! Devil the of is grammar!a, squeaky was that OK paraphrase .of It therefore it makes !

Squeakybro

September 28th 2004, 08:23 PM

You all really ought to read the revelation on Intellectuals

Xavier

September 28th 2004, 08:27 PM

You all really ought to read the revelation on Intellectuals
:hehe:

Raptor

September 28th 2004, 09:27 PM

You all really ought to read the revelation on Intellectuals

:doh: PuNctUaTiOn oF tHe dEvIl iT Is ?

Tfbandie

September 28th 2004, 10:42 PM

:doh: PuNctUaTiOn oF tHe dEvIl iT Is ?

oh no! not the random capitalization, I thought we got rid of him a while ago.

Sparko

September 28th 2004, 11:02 PM

You all really ought to read the revelation on Intellectuals
Ah, so are you of the Devil:b_evil: too? You used grammar! Now we have no reason to believe anything you say!

I rebuke you! I rebuke you! I rebuke you!

Xavier

September 28th 2004, 11:35 PM

Guess I'm going to have to pull out my Eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Smilie:

:evilxav:

Xavier

September 28th 2004, 11:36 PM

Oh... And before we go too far...

Please don't feed the Trolls...

:wink:

Squeakybro

September 28th 2004, 11:40 PM

You all are away to intellectual for me to follow

Raptor

September 28th 2004, 11:41 PM

You all are away to intellectual for me to follow

Care to elaborate some more?

Squeakybro

September 28th 2004, 11:44 PM

you said
care to elaborate some more?

I said
Now that is really to intellectual for me. How can anyone elaborate on something thay dont understand.

Raptor

September 28th 2004, 11:47 PM

you said
care to elaborate some more?

I said
Now that is really to intellectual for me. How can anyone elaborate on something thay dont understand.

Pot meet Kettle. :pot:

{Tim}

September 29th 2004, 12:38 AM

I said
Now that is really to intellectual for me. How can anyone elaborate on something thay dont understand.
Perhaps you could explain what you don't understand, and why you don't understand it? ... and don't say, "everything, because it's intellectual"! :teeth:

Edited to add:Pot meet Kettle. :pot:
Um, that's probably too intellectual for him to understand... :ahem:

Squeakybro

September 29th 2004, 09:37 AM

You see again. If I dont understand it, then how could I explain the part I dont understand. I think that is more of that intellectual stuff.

Xavier

September 29th 2004, 09:56 AM

You see again. If I dont understand it, then how could I explain the part I dont understand. I think that is more of that intellectual stuff.
Intellectual Stuff is something you need VERY badly... Study is well and good, but study also requires other forms of knowledge that reading. It requires the study of context and background. I can also require the study of History and the development of doctrines. Even reading what other intellectuals have to say is important. These will all help you gain insight to the scriptures. :smile:

Squeakybro

September 29th 2004, 11:16 AM

You said
These will all help you gain insight to the scriptures.

I said
That is where we differ.

Luke 16:8-9
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
(KJV)

We are to purge out the knowledge of man by the power of the verses.

1 Cor 8:1-3

1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
(NKJ)

1 Cor 5:7-8
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
(NKJ)

Xavier

September 29th 2004, 11:17 AM

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

:twitch:

Wow... Just Wow...

That has to be the absolute WORST job of proof-texting I have EVER seen...

:eek:

Raptor

September 29th 2004, 11:31 AM

:shy:

Sparko

September 29th 2004, 12:15 PM

I think...therefore I am. I think.

Squeakybro

September 29th 2004, 08:11 PM

Oh I hope you posted that reply on the intellectual thread. It really looks like it would fit.

{Tim}

September 29th 2004, 09:26 PM

You see again. If I dont understand it, then how could I explain the part I dont understand. I think that is more of that intellectual stuff.Surely you realise that I wanted you to tell us which bit you didn't understand? Not to explain what it meant, but explain what it is about it that you don't understand?

Prov. 15:2 "The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, but the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness."
Prov. 16:23 "The heart of the wise teaches his mouth, and adds learning to his lips."

You see? Knowledge and learning belong to those who are wise! Is wisdom also evil?

Tim

Ron Macy

September 30th 2004, 01:26 PM

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone

Heb 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

We can see that God cannot be tempted, and we can see that Jesus was tempted the same as we are.

God can’t be tempted; Jesus was tempted. I agree, the conclusion that Jesus is not God is valid.

Now if the only way to the Father is through Jesus, and we cant get there any other way. Then we want to be sure we have the right Jesus to follow. But If Jesus is God as some confess, then the Jesus the bible talks about didnt exsist. And if the Jesus the bible talks about doesnt exsist, we cant get to the Father.

At one time I would have said the same thing as Squeakybro. I was taught following the wrong Jesus, i.e. a trinitarian Jesus would prevent the follower from coming to God. The more I read the Bible, the more I see God overlooking flaws in our doctrine in favor of a heart that is sincere in its desire to be obedient to Him.

At the same time I think about Ezekiel 33:2-4. I believe my responsibility is to present what I believe is Biblical truth (God is only one person.) for any and all to hear. I don’t have to convince anyone. If a person is sincerely desiring to understand God more, God will respond to that desire by making what I present meaningful. Yet, it is up to God to bring the meaning to a person’s heart. If the person isn’t ready to accept what I believe, that is fine. I have still fulfilled my responsibility by planting the seed in that person’s mind. God will use the seed planted to bring about growth in His own good time.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

According to the “grammar,” the antecedent of ‘him’ is logos from verse 1. It is only ‘him’ because of the necessity of the pronoun to have the same gender as the antecedent. It just so happens logos is masculine. The ‘him’ does not mean logos was a person. At the most it might be a personification. It doesn’t even have to be that. I believe logos would be best understood as “plan.” My paraphrase of John 1:1-3 would look like:

1 In the beginning was the Plan, and the Plan was with God, and the Plan was divne.
2 The Plan was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through The Plan, and apart from The Plan nothing came into being that has come into being.

I understand the God’s plan to be His plan for the salvation of the world. Before God began creation, He had the plan for how He was going to save mankind from their sin. Nothing God created was created apart from His plan for the salvation of mankind. Everything that was made came into being through this plan.

John, I don’t see John 1:3 as discussing anything about the only begotten Son of God.

Ron

Xavier

September 30th 2004, 01:55 PM

So Ron, one quick question, How did a MAN save you?

Sparko

September 30th 2004, 02:04 PM

best understood as “plan.” My paraphrase of John 1:1-3 would look like:

1 In the beginning was the Plan, and the Plan was with God, and the Plan was divne.
2 The Plan was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through The Plan, and apart from The Plan nothing came into being that has come into being.

Eh?

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

It clearly shows the Word was not a "plan" but a person, Jesus, who came in the flesh. Not only that, but in verse 18 he is called "God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side".

Now the Father is God, right? So who is this "God the One and Only" who is at the Father's side? It is the Word, Jesus. Not some amorpheous "plan"

Squeakybro

September 30th 2004, 09:19 PM

Ron macy you said
At one time I would have said the same thing as Squeakybro. I was taught following the wrong Jesus, i.e. a trinitarian Jesus would prevent the follower from coming to God. The more I read the Bible, the more I see God overlooking flaws in our doctrine in favor of a heart that is sincere in its desire to be obedient to Him.

I said
I am impressed.
I also noticed you had a piece on
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Do you know the word through means "reason for"?

Sparko

October 1st 2004, 12:28 AM

Further evidence that Ron Macy is wrong:

Squeekybro agrees with him.

Case closed.

drmmjr

October 1st 2004, 01:08 PM

Eh?

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

It clearly shows the Word was not a "plan" but a person, Jesus, who came in the flesh. Not only that, but in verse 18 he is called "God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side".

Now the Father is God, right? So who is this "God the One and Only" who is at the Father's side? It is the Word, Jesus. Not some amorpheous "plan"
Which translation do you have that says "God the One and Only"? The translations that I have looked at typically say "the only begotten Son".

Sparko

October 1st 2004, 04:27 PM

Which translation do you have that says "God the One and Only"? The translations that I have looked at typically say "the only begotten Son". The NIV.

Also:

(CEV) No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

(GNB) No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

(ISV) No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

(NAS) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

at studylight.org you can view the NAS and Greek interlinear:

qeon oudeiv ewraken pwpote; monogenhv (Only begotten) qeov (God) o wn eiv ton kolpontou patrov ekeinov echghsato.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+1%3A18&section=0&it=nas&oq=john%25201%3A18&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=1&ncc=1

The phrase translated as The only Begotten Son in this verse in the KJV has this said about it in some of my bible notes:

Vincents Word Studies: The only begotten son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς)
Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς, “God only begotten.”

monogenes - "the only one" "sole", "unique" (or, as the word is sometimes rendered, "the only begotten")

Squeakybro

October 1st 2004, 04:36 PM

Where did you come up with all them wierd versions.
It does say there is one God the Father.

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 1st 2004, 07:03 PM

Apparently you are good at taking the verses you like (out of context of course) but ignoring the verses you don't like. Do you scratch out the verses you don't like?

Why don't you respond to my posts? I showed clearly that Jesus IS the word, and also God. Instead of responding, you ignore and post a completely different verse that has nothing to do with anything.

Squeakybro

October 1st 2004, 09:50 PM

you said
Why don't you respond to my posts? I showed clearly that Jesus IS the word, and also God. Instead of responding, you ignore and post a completely different verse that has nothing to do with anything.

I said
You didnt show me nothing but a bunch of books that I have no idea of where they came from. There not the Word of God.

1 Tim 4:1-2

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 1st 2004, 10:20 PM

Sure they are, and I even explained it in the original GREEK for you. The bible was not written in Elizabethan English. It was written in Hebrew and greek.

Ron Macy

October 1st 2004, 10:27 PM

Xavier,

So Ron, one quick question, How did a MAN save you?

A MAN saved me by dying for my sins. That is something God cannot do. I believe Jesus was born a perfect MAN in the same way Adam was created perfect MAN. I believe the unique, miraculous nature of Jesus’ birth made His pefection possible. It is because Jesus lived in perfect obedience to God (as opposed to Adam’s rebellion) which further qualified Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

John Sparks,

John 1:14-18
14 And the Plan became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”
16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

It clearly shows the Word was not a “plan” but a person, Jesus, who came in the flesh. Not only that, but in verse 18 he is called “God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side”.

Now the Father is God, right? So who is this “God the One and Only” who is at the Father's side? It is the Word, Jesus. Not some amorpheous “plan”

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree. Jesus was the fulfillment of God’s plan. In a very real way the plan for our salvation did become flesh in the person of Jesus. It was Jesus of whom John testified.

I believe your translation, “God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side” is more interpreted than translated. Then again, it doesn’t sound good to have a “God” who was “begotten.” It is a contradiction in terms. I can see why you might want to use this interpretation rather than an actual translation.

Further evidence that Ron Macy is wrong:

Squeekybro agrees with him.

Case closed.

Ow! That hurts!

Squeakybro,

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Do you know the word through means "reason for"?

I don’t recall the word “for” being part of the definition. I have seen “by reason of” or “on account of.” This is under the definition, “the ground or reason by which something is or is not done.”(Thayer)

Ron

Squeakybro

October 2nd 2004, 01:53 PM

Is there a difference between reason for and reason of? I dont see it.

Ron Macy

October 2nd 2004, 03:14 PM

Squeakybro,
Is there a difference between reason for and reason of? I dont see it.
Probably not much. In my mind, "for" would suggest the plan (in the context of John 1:1) was why things were done. The plan was the focal point for creation. I don't think that is what is intended. "Of" suggests agency. Creation was based on the plan. The focal point of creation was a perfect world (universe) in which God could fellowship with man.

I believe God recognized before He ever started creating that man would sin and need to be saved from those sins. He knew from the start Jesus would be born to die for our sins. These things were part of His plan from the beginning.

Ron

Rayado

October 3rd 2004, 12:40 AM

I wonder what squeaky would say about the eeeeevil, Satanic grammar of the Greek translation of John 1:1? :hehe:
Or Greek grammar in general?

En arche en ho logos, kai logos pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos...

/Not sure if it's spelled correctly, I used the Greek tags for the first time
//What does it matter, spelling is of the devil

Xavier

October 3rd 2004, 02:57 AM

:bow: LOGOS

Squeakybro

October 3rd 2004, 09:39 AM

Spelling isnt necassarily of the devil. But exaggerations are.

Athanasius

October 3rd 2004, 01:01 PM

Squeakybro, did you know that you are exibiting many of the typical symptoms of a cult leader? Reviewing some of your posts, this is what I observe:

1) You claim to have received "revelations" that go against what has been recognized by the universal church as sound doctrine for two millenia.

2) You consistently IGNORE bible verses which contradict your "revelations". It is as though they can't sink in; they just bounce right off like seed on stone.

3) You don't have the humility to admit mistakes in reasoning - all signs of a proud heart and a mind that is puffed up, typical of a cult leader.

4) When you can't refute them, you demonize your opponents, associating them with the devil, doctrines of demons, blind guides, pharisees, etc. Resorting to name calling rather than sound reasoning from the scripture is a sign of someone who recognizes that his position is indefensible, but refuses to acknowledge this.

5) You distort the orthodox Christian teaching of the nature of God. Most of the cults do this.

6) You are flirting dangerously with adding to scripture, inserting "(the Father)" in verses which speak of God, thereby making your own interpretations sound like scripture.

7)You don't seem to recognize where scripture ends and your own interpretation begins - they are both gospel truth to you, and woe to the man who disagrees with you!

Honestly, if I were an objective, secular recruiter looking to fill a leadership position in a cult, what I have read so far would make me want to seek you out for an interview!

Do you recognize the danger you are in? Is this the path you really want to walk down?

Xavier

October 3rd 2004, 01:23 PM

Xavier,

A MAN saved me by dying for my sins. That is something God cannot do.

Thanks.

Yours,
Xavier

Squeakybro

October 3rd 2004, 02:35 PM

you said
Squeakybro, did you know that you are exibiting many of the typical symptoms of a cult leader? Reviewing some of your posts, this is what I observe:

I said
I know your carnal mind sees things differently than I do. I might try to help you out here alittle. Just incase you desire to become a good heckler. Because right now your not doing very good. The word you should be looking for is sataniccult, or occult. Not just cult. Every religion in the world is a cult. Every government is a cult. legal system is a cult. your family is a cult. A cult is any group of people that all believe alike.
religion or sect.
2. A system or community of
religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of
expressing religious
reverence; religious ceremony
and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific
method or regimen claimed by
its originator to have exclusive
or exceptional power in curing
a particular disease.
5. a . Obsessive, especially
faddish, devotion to or
veneration for a person,
principle, or thing.
b . The object of such
devotion.
6. An exclusive group of
persons sharing an esoteric,
usually artistic or intellectual
interest.

Athanasius

October 3rd 2004, 03:30 PM

Squeakybro

October 3rd 2004, 09:46 PM

you said
I am not joking, and I am not heckling. I am very serious!

I said
I dont think your joking, I think your just misled.

2 Cor 4:3
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
(NKJ)

Rayado

October 4th 2004, 09:09 PM

Spelling isnt necassarily of the devil. But exaggerations are.

Necessarily?! Are there instances when it is?

:egad:

...kai theos en ho logos...

Ron Macy

October 5th 2004, 08:11 AM

Fëanor,

I wonder what squeaky would say about the eeeeevil, Satanic grammar of the Greek translation of John 1:1? :hehe:
Or Greek grammar in general?

En arche en ho logos, kai logos pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos...

/Not sure if it's spelled correctly, I used the Greek tags for the first time
//What does it matter, spelling is of the devil

What is there in the grammar and spelling of John 1:1 which tells you logos is a person? Is it impossible for logos to be a concept or thought without being a person?

Ron

Squeakybro

October 5th 2004, 08:41 AM

you said
Are there instances when it is?

I said
Well Duh! Ofcourse. When it is written God and it is refering to god. Or when it is written Spirit and it is refering to spirit. When it is written Father and it is refering to father.

luv1another

October 6th 2004, 12:26 AM

I think it might be time to stop feeding the :troll: they thrive on attention :ahem:

Xavier

October 6th 2004, 01:52 AM

Fëanor,

What is there in the grammar and spelling of John 1:1 which tells you logos is a person? Is it impossible for logos to be a concept or thought without being a person?

Ron

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Not sure that a "plain reading" of the passage could possiblely yeild the notion that the Logos isn't concrete. "The Word was WITH God." How is a non-concrete referent "with someone"? Can one say the idea was with me? Personally, I find such a notion to be non-sensical.

Vincent in his Word Studies spends great length discussing that "with" in the sentance relays a much deeper connection than the English word can possess:
Was with God (ἦν πὸς τὸν Θεὸν)

[...] With (πρός) does not convey the full meaning, that there is no single English word which will give it better. The preposition πρός, which, with the accusative case, denotes motion towards, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as being near or beside, but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of intercourse. Thus: “Are not his sisters here with us” (πρὸς ἡμᾶς), i.e., in social relations with us (Mar_6:3; Mat_13:56). “How long shall I be with you” (πρὸς ὑμᾶς, Mar_9:16). “I sat daily with you” (Mat_26:55). “To be present with the Lord” (πρὸς τὸν Κύριον, 2Co_5:8). “Abide and winter with you” (1Co_16:6). “The eternal life which was with the Father” (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα, 1Jo_1:2). [...]

Notice how the other usages denote concrete subjects dwelling together. No "ideas or consepts" here.

I would argue that the very way the verse is set up in its three-fold presentation outrules the fact that the Logos is anything other than a thing (more precisely a person). We have a timing statement, a spatial statement, and a definition. The first two taken together lend a powerful argument to the concrete nature of the referent (in the case, LOGOS).

I don't know about impossible, but highly unlikely seems an apt phrase.

That said, I would be intriqued if there were other places in the NT (or the LXX for that matter) in which ideas were given times and positions in manner that John does in 1:1.

Yours,
Xavier

Squeakybro

October 6th 2004, 10:02 AM

Sparko

October 6th 2004, 10:31 AM

you said
Necessarily?! Are there instances when it is?

I said
How come I have to answer things so many times. Yes the devil has alot to do with spelling. Look at your bible. Some versions shows spirit when it should be Spirit. Some versions show he when it should be He.
So the Devil can't quote the new testament, but he can change the spelling? So how do you know that you have the right New Testament? maybe the Devil rewrote it on you.

Squeakybro

October 6th 2004, 08:05 PM

Johnsparks I would have to agree with Paul here.

1 Cor 1:14
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 6th 2004, 09:17 PM

How do you know Paul wrote that? Maybe the devil changed the spelling of Saul's name to Paul to confuse us? If the Devil changed the spelling of "death" to "save" then he could have changed everything we believe in.

How do you know you can trust ANYTHING in the bible if the Devil can change the spelling of words in the bible? Especially since you already said the Devil messes around with grammar too, and I suppose punctuation. Seems like the devil could have rewritten the whole new testament.

Squeakybro

October 6th 2004, 11:20 PM

luv1another

October 6th 2004, 11:51 PM

squeaky go get your own board... you quote scripture out of context, you make up revelations to confuse new Christians... just go away and find some other satan helpers to hang out with.

Sparko

October 7th 2004, 12:11 AM

you said
How do you know Paul wrote that?

I said
It looks like you just committed a sin. But I'm sure you can come up with another camoflouge cartoon to escape truth.

Luke 24:38
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
(NKJ)

Rom 14:23
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
(NKJ)
Actually, I have no doubts about the scripture. It is the word of God and truth. YOU are the one claiming that the Devil can change the spelling and grammar in the bible. So YOU are the one sowing the seeds of doubt and confusion.

If it is a sin to doubt the truth of Scripture, then YOU are the one who is sinning, since you said the devil can change scripture.

May the Lord rebuke you, Squeakybro.

{Tim}

October 7th 2004, 04:19 AM

23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.Pardon me squeaky, but since when does the issue of eating demon meat have anything to do with doubting the bible?

Squeakybro

October 8th 2004, 03:19 PM

Tim let me show you what it is talking about.

Rom 14:23
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
(NKJ)

Its talking about reading the Word of God. Its talking about feeding on the Word of God.

John 6:54-56
54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 8th 2004, 03:43 PM

nice dodge.

Squeakybro

October 8th 2004, 10:02 PM

you said
nice dodge.

I said
Is everything ugly with you? I just speak the truth.

Ron Macy

October 11th 2004, 10:38 PM

Xavier,

I missed your response. I am sorry.

Not sure that a "plain reading" of the passage could possiblely yeild the notion that the Logos isn't concrete. "The Word was WITH God." How is a non-concrete referent "with someone"? Can one say the idea was with me? Personally, I find such a notion to be non-sensical.

John 1 is largely poetic. A “non-concrete referent” can be “with” someone metaphorically. You may certainly consider it non-sensical, but metaphors make inanimate objects “come to life” all the time, especially in poetry.

The preposition πρός, which, with the accusative case, denotes motion towards, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as being near or beside, but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of intercourse.

According to the software program I have (Interlinear Scripture Analyzer) I see pros is found in Matthew 27:14 with the accusative. It says, “And He did not answer him with regard (pros) to even a single charge,
so the governor was quite amazed.” According to you (and Vincent) Jesus is having a personal relationship with the charges. What do you think?

Pros is found in Mark 2:2 with the accusative. It says,
“And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near (pros) the door; and He was speaking the word to them.”
The crowd of people had a personal relationship with the door.

Pros is found in Luke 4:11 ( and Matthew 4:6) with the accusative. It says,
“and, ‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST (pros) A STONE.’”
Jesus’ foot may have had a personal relationship with a stone.

It looks to me like pros is just a pronoun. It means “with.”

That said, I would be intriqued if there were other places in the NT (or the LXX for that matter) in which ideas were given times and positions in manner that John does in 1:1.

"I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And I find knowledge and discretion.

Wisdom in personified. Prudence is personified.

The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

“Me” is wisdom, again. Again, personified by the fact wisdom is described as speaking.

Ron

Xavier

October 11th 2004, 11:59 PM

Xavier,

I missed your response. I am sorry.

Oh... No problem.

John 1 is largely poetic. A “non-concrete referent” can be “with” someone metaphorically. You may certainly consider it non-sensical, but metaphors make inanimate objects “come to life” all the time, especially in poetry.

Forgiving a hypostatis (which you have found), I don't see that much in Hebrew poetry.

The preposition πρός, which, with the accusative case, denotes motion towards, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as being near or beside, but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of intercourse.

According to the software program I have (Interlinear Scripture Analyzer) I see pros is found in Matthew 27:14 with the accusative. It says, “And He did not answer him with regard (pros) to even a single charge, so the governor was quite amazed.” According to you (and Vincent) Jesus is having a personal relationship with the charges. What do you think?

Exception perhaps... Note that Vincent says "often" not "always"

Pros is found in Mark 2:2 with the accusative. It says,
“And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near (pros) the door; and He was speaking the word to them.”
The crowd of people had a personal relationship with the door.

Pros is found in Luke 4:11 ( and Matthew 4:6) with the accusative. It says,
“and, ‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST (pros) A STONE.’”
Jesus’ foot may have had a personal relationship with a stone.

Not sure how widely used Vincent indended to convery, He cites the following: Mark 6:3; Matthew 13:56; Mark 9:16; Matthew 26:55; 2 Corinthians 5:8; 1 Corinthians 16:6; 1 John 1:2.

It looks to me like pros is just a pronoun. It means “with.”

I think it has more range than you grant it.

"I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And I find knowledge and discretion.

Wisdom in personified. Prudence is personified.

The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

“Me” is wisdom, again. Again, personified by the fact wisdom is described as speaking.

Remember the hypostatis that we were discussing in the other thread... :teeth:

These are fine examples (and some would even say they refer to Christ). Proverbs 8 discusses the Wisdom of God(?) as a person. That leads to some interesting conclusions... :teeth:

Yours,
Xavier

Ron Macy

October 12th 2004, 12:33 AM

Xavier,

Remember the hypostatis that we were discussing in the other thread... :teeth:

These are fine examples (and some would even say they refer to Christ). Proverbs 8 discusses the Wisdom of God(?) as a person. That leads to some interesting conclusions... :teeth:

You notice I am not believing in hypostasis as it has been presented in the other thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39294), either. Personification never grows into actual personhood.

Ron

Xavier

October 12th 2004, 12:36 AM

Xavier,

You notice I am not believing in hypostasis as it has been presented in the other thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39294), either. Personification never grows into actual personhood.

Ron
Never is a rather strong word to use, especially since there would be Talmudic evdience to the contrary (at least that's what I recently read).

Yours,
Xavier

PS: I'm looking around for specific citations on the Talmudic Literature.

Squeakybro

October 12th 2004, 09:32 AM

Raptor

October 12th 2004, 11:12 AM

you said
Never is a rather strong word to use, especially since there would be Talmudic evdience to the contrary

I said
There is muslim evidence to the contrary, and budda evidence to the contrary. Are you going to them for your evidence also. Doesnt anyone trust the Word of God anymore.
Do you even know what it is, Squeak? Or are you going to do your typical "intellectual stuff" quote? I think the forest is right behind those trees up ahead Squeakybro.

Xavier

October 12th 2004, 11:23 AM

you said
Never is a rather strong word to use, especially since there would be Talmudic evdience to the contrary

I said
There is muslim evidence to the contrary, and budda evidence to the contrary. Are you going to them for your evidence also. Doesnt anyone trust the Word of God anymore.

Goolge "Talmud" for me and discover why it would be germane to the topic.

Sparko

October 12th 2004, 12:43 PM

Isn't Talmud a Taliban Mud bath?

:lmbo:

Squeakybro

October 12th 2004, 01:27 PM

you said
Isn't Talmud a Taliban Mud bath?

I said
I have no idea of what it is. As far as I know its more of that intellectual stuff. And we have learned from so many intellectuals in here they cant hear the Holy Spirit. Most dont even know who He is.

Warcraft3

October 12th 2004, 01:46 PM

Sparko

October 12th 2004, 02:47 PM

:spam: :spam:

More SPAM Please!

Xavier

October 12th 2004, 02:49 PM

I have no idea of what it is.

:sigh:

Raptor

October 12th 2004, 02:50 PM

:doh:

Sparko

October 12th 2004, 03:21 PM

:nuts:

Squeakybro

October 12th 2004, 04:48 PM

Ron you said

The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

“Me” is wisdom, again. Again, personified by the fact wisdom is described as speaking.

I said
I just noticed something about this personified thing you have going here.
I always knew that He was a spiritual title of authority. But with wisdom being personified, so is in John 1-1 the Word is personified with the He.

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
(NKJ)

Xavier

October 12th 2004, 05:20 PM

Very good Squeaky... Now apply this to your theology.

Sparko

October 12th 2004, 07:50 PM

Naw, Xavier, he is using that to deny that the Word is a person. He still doesn't get it.

Squeaky, how about the verses that directly call Jesus God?

Titus 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=TIT+2:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2PET+1:1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Hebrews 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+1:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

(in that last one, it is the Father speaking. And he calls the Son, "God" - can't get a better endorsement than the Father calling Jesus "God")

Of course you will use your intellectualism and wiggle out of it. But you have been told and you have no excuse when you stand before the Throne of Judgement.

Squeakybro

October 12th 2004, 10:25 PM

I dont know what book you got them out of but this is what mine says. The apostles already knew that God was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. So any time they addressed Jesus they always addressed God the Father also. Simple huh. The word and some times links two subjects together and some times separates them from each other.

Titus 2:11-13
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(NKJ)

2 Pet 1:1

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
(NKJ)

And this one really gets me the way it gets perverted. If you will look at verse 6 and start reading down to verse 8 it all makes sense. When God the Father AGAIN BRINGS THE FIRSTBORN INTO THE WORLD. He hasnt done that yet, but when He does then Jesus will carry the title of a God. On earth He only carried the title of Lord. But on His second coming to earth He will carry the title of a God.
Heb 1:6-8
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
(NKJ)

Raptor

October 12th 2004, 11:11 PM

I guess the NKJV is the only version that can be used in Squeaks world.

Ron Macy

October 12th 2004, 11:12 PM

Squeakybro,

I just noticed something about this personified thing you have going here.
I always knew that He was a spiritual title of authority. But with wisdom being personified, so is in John 1-1 the Word is personified with the He.

I believe there is possibilities on both sides of the personification thought in reference to logos in John 1:1-13. I do not believe logos is a person in this passage. The use of masculine personal pronouns refering to logos does not prove even personification. Greek is a language (similar to Spanish) which has gender associated with its nouns. In the same way a table, mesa (in Spanish), should be referenced by “she,” logos should be referenced by “he.” For this reason “he” is technically correct, but the masculine pronoun should never be used to suggest logos is a person.

I do believe wisdom is being personified in Proverbs 8.

Ron

Sparko

October 12th 2004, 11:45 PM

I dont know what book you got them out of but this is what mine says.
The New King James Version bible.

The apostles already knew that God was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. So any time they addressed Jesus they always addressed God the Father also. Simple huh. The word and some times links two subjects together and some times separates them from each other.
Really? Gee, which book did you get that from? Your bible says this, eh? I doubt it very much. There are plenty of places they address Jesus alone. Sorry your explanation is weak and nonsensical.

Titus 2:11-13
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(NKJ)

2 Pet 1:1

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
(NKJ)

I bolded the same phrases as I quoted above in my post. They are the same. They call Jesus God and Savior.

And this one really gets me the way it gets perverted. If you will look at verse 6 and start reading down to verse 8 it all makes sense. When God the Father AGAIN BRINGS THE FIRSTBORN INTO THE WORLD. He hasnt done that yet, but when He does then Jesus will carry the title of a God. On earth He only carried the title of Lord. But on His second coming to earth He will carry the title of a God.
The only one perverting scripture here is YOU, spanky. God will NEVER allow anyone else to share his glory or his title. Unlesss Jesus is God, he can never hold the "title" of God. Why would the Father call another person "God"? After centuries of beating it into everyone's heads that God is ONE and there is not other God, he turns around and gives Jesus the title "God?" -- sorry. If Jesus is called God, it is only because he IS already God.

Squeakybro

October 13th 2004, 08:11 AM

you said
Really? Gee, which book did you get that from? Your bible says this, eh? I doubt it very much. There are plenty of places they address Jesus alone. Sorry your explanation is weak and nonsensical.

I said
Jesus had already told them away back in chap 14

2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

adampastor

October 13th 2004, 08:58 AM

God will NEVER allow anyone else to share his glory or his title. Unlesss Jesus is God, he can never hold the "title" of God. Why would the Father call another person "God"? After centuries of beating it into everyone's heads that God is ONE and there is not other God, he turns around and gives Jesus the title "God?" -- sorry. If Jesus is called God, it is only because he IS already God.

The reason why Almighty GOD will confer the title 'God/elohim/theos' upon Jesus the Messiah is because, this is the title that Almighty GOD in times past, conferred upon those who represented Him and judged for Him (2 Chr 19:6), beginning with Moses.

(Exo 4:16) And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee ... a mouth, and thou shalt be to him ... God/elohim.
(Exo 7:1) And YAHWEH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god/elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

(Exo 22:8-9) If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges/elohim, ... 9 ... the cause of both parties shall come before the judges/elohim; and whom the judges/elohim shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

(Exo 22:28) Thou shalt not revile the gods/elohim, nor curse the ruler of thy people. (See also Acts 23:4-5 where this is quoted)

(Psa 82:6) I have said, Ye are gods/elohim; and all of you are children of the most High.

Also angels are called gods/elohim because they represent Almighty GOD.

However, none of this disturbed the absolute monotheism of the ONE GOD. The OT saints and the early church understood that YAHWEH, the true & living GOD [Jere 10:10, John 17:3] is the GOD of Gods ... He alone is Almighty GOD.

Now, if sinful, imperfect men/judges could be called elohim; how much more Jesus of Nazareth, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world; he who is the righteous, sinless Son of the Living GOD,

how much more he can rightly be called elohim;
seeing that (John 5:27) Almighty GOD hath given him authority to execute judgment ...
seeing that YAHWEH GOD (Acts 17:31) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead;
seeing that the Messiah is (Acts 10:42) ... ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
How much more than, can the man Messiah Jesus be indeed called elohim;
Again, just as in the OT, men and angels are called elohim; whilst recognizing that YAHWEH alone is GOD Almighty ... the same is true of Jesus, and the same is true in the NT

(John 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

(Rev 3:12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Even when it was first prophesied in Scripture that the King Messiah shall be conferred the title elohim; it is obvious that GOD Almighty is GOD over him ...

(Psa 45:6-7) Thy throne, O God [the King Messiah], is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, [YAHWEH, GOD his Father] hath anointed thee [hence why he is called the Messiah!] with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The writer of Hebrews quotes this scripture to show the supremacy of the Messiah over all of GOD's Creation including the angels (which are also elohim). Yet the writer recognizes that the King Messiah is nevertheless solely GOD's Son, GOD's firstborn ..

The Scriptures are plain ... there is ONE GOD, YAHWEH, who is the GOD & Father of the Lord Jesus Christ
[Eph 1:3, Col 1:3, 1 Pet 1:3].
YAHWEH the only true GOD raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead and in fulfillment of Psalms 110:1, made Jesus of Nazareth, Lord & Christ.

Therefore, GOD has highly exalted this man even above the angels, seeing that this man is indeed His Son; being GOD's Son and GOD's firstborn, the man Messiah Jesus will therefore, inherit all things as promised, and
(Phil 2:10-11) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And every tongue should confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord, to the glory of God his Father.

The man Messiah Jesus, seeing that he is that man ordained of GOD to be Judge of all and Lord of all, ... he then has been exalted and authorized to be the ultimate representative, the ultimate plenipotentary, the ultimate judge, the ultimate 'god/elohim' for GOD Almighty!
The ultimate 'god/elohim' in the sense that the gods of Psalms 82 were meant to be.
Nevertheless, Messiah Jesus, being made a 'god/elohim' will always be subordinate to the only true GOD, YAHWEH, his Father, who is the GOD of gods. [1 Cor 15:28]

Lastly, in the same sense, that Moses, was 'god/elohim to Pharaoh and especially to Aaron; that is, Moses as Almighty GOD's representative.
In like manner, the resurrected Messiah, the one greater than Moses, is indeed both Lord and 'god/elohim' to the church, in light of Psalms 45:6-7,11; hence Thomas' words of John 20:28 which are nicely bracketed between verse 17 (The Father being Jesus' GOD) and verse 31 (Jesus therefore, is the Messiah, the Son of the Father [2 John 3])
The ultimate fulfilment of Psalms 45:6-7,11; will be seen at Christ's return when Almighty GOD (Heb 1:6) bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world ... Hope this clarifies ...

PS Moses was called by GOD, 'God' ... was he then already God?
(There are no capitals in the original Hebrew/Greek ... god = God)
Of course the answer is NO! The same way your logic fails for Moses, the same goes for Messiah Jesus!

Sparko

October 13th 2004, 03:34 PM

Wow, looks like you have competition there Squeaky.

Squeakybro

October 13th 2004, 07:31 PM

you said
Wow, looks like you have competition there Squeaky.

I said
You better look again, he is criticizing you.

Sparko

October 13th 2004, 07:41 PM

That's what I meant. He is competing with you for the person who can post the most irrelevant, confusing, hard-to-read wackiness. So far you still have the lead though. No worries.

Ron Macy

October 13th 2004, 09:09 PM

JohnSparks,

That's what I meant. He is competing with you for the person who can post the most irrelevant, confusing, hard-to-read wackiness. So far you still have the lead though. No worries.

Irrelevant? Confusing?
I thought adampastor’s thoughts were pretty clear.

(John 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

(Rev 3:12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Adampastor clearly quoted Jesus’ own words. Jesus referred to someone other than Himself and called that person, God. Jesus referred to that other person as “My God.” Jesus, the person you have claimed is God, confesses to having a God.

I am incredulous you find that so hard to understand and find it confusing. Jesus, clearly, does not consider Himself to be God.

Ron

Squeakybro

October 13th 2004, 09:46 PM

JohnSparks
Evil dicTATER

That is interresting. I tried to copy the whole thing up there. Because I was going to ask you about putting a cross just below your evil dictater name. And they only thing that would copy is the evil dictator.

Raptor

October 13th 2004, 09:52 PM

It's a gif image squeakybro, that's why it won't copy to a word processor program. :twitch: (I'm sure you have no clue what that is, or you will tell us that it's evil in some way.)

Squeakybro

October 13th 2004, 09:59 PM

May I ask you who you are suppose to be In the yellow and blue tytes? And are you dancing?

Sparko

October 13th 2004, 11:52 PM

Raptor

October 13th 2004, 11:55 PM

May I ask you who you are suppose to be In the yellow and blue tytes? And are you dancing?

It's an animation from a video game. They're only pics, squeak. nothing more.

Warcraft3

October 14th 2004, 04:10 AM

That's what I meant. He is competing with you for the person who can post the most irrelevant, confusing, hard-to-read wackiness. So far you still have the lead though. No worries.

:lol:

:rofl:

The wackiness abounds.........

Warcraft3

October 14th 2004, 04:13 AM

Adampastor clearly quoted Jesus’ own words. Jesus referred to someone other than Himself and called that person, God. Jesus referred to that other person as “My God.” Jesus, the person you have claimed is God, confesses to having a God.

I am incredulous you find that so hard to understand and find it confusing. Jesus, clearly, does not consider Himself to be God.

Ron

Oh yes.............Adampastor, in one short post, has disproved the trinity once and for all......if only we had that post centuries ago we could have avoided all of the deep theological debates on the issue......

Do you really believe that that one post is the final word on the "Did Jesus claim to be God" debate?

Please tell me no................

Squeakybro

October 14th 2004, 10:10 AM

you said
Do you really believe that that one post is the final word on the "Did Jesus claim to be God" debate?

I said
Jesus said He wasnt God but that the Father was the only true God.

John 17:1-3

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

Jesus also said that Him and I had the same God and the same Father.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

Its not a question on whether or not Jesus said He was God He didnt. The question is who is blind and who isnt.

Sparko

October 14th 2004, 12:02 PM

The question is who is blind and who isnt.
and the answer is: You are blind and we isnt.

Squeakybro

October 14th 2004, 07:33 PM

you said
and the answer is: You are blind and we isnt.

I said
lolololol

Sparko

October 14th 2004, 07:38 PM

Your emotions have been showing lately.

Squeakybro

October 14th 2004, 10:08 PM

you said
Your emotions have been showing lately

I said
There you go again trying to imatate wisdom. Laughter is not an emotion it is an affection. Another shot at wisdom bungled.

Sparko

October 14th 2004, 11:15 PM

Then I and none of the others have been showing any emotion to you so far. So why were you accusing us of doing so?

:lol: <-- affection
:teeth: <-- affection
:lmbo: <-- affection
:rofl: <-- affection

Squeakybro

October 15th 2004, 08:35 AM

you said
Then I and none of the others have been showing any emotion to you so far. So why were you accusing us of doing so?

I said
Wrong again. If you didnt know the difference that is because your emotions deceived you. You havent had any experiance with knowing the difference. You keep demonstrating there is alot you dont know. And yet you keep right on throwing your opinion out there like it has some kind of authority. Go read them revelations on emotions feelings and affections and learn the difference. An affection has no desire what so ever. And look inside yourself you have alot of desires to prove me wrong. That is why your in my thread, to flex your intellectual muscles. And go back over the board and see if I have gone into anyone elses thread to try to prove them wrong. You are motivated by your emotions, I am motivated by the Holy Spirit to share what He has taught me. I stay within what the Spirit has taught me, I dont care what anyone else thinks or posts. I have no desire to prove any one else wrong. You NEED to prove others wrong because that makes you "feel" right. Your walking after the flesh and I am walking after the Spirit.

Sparko

October 15th 2004, 09:48 AM

Oh so your definition of emotion is:

If someone else shows feelings, they are "emotions" - if Squeaky shows feelings, they are "affections"

Check.

Well, I definitely do agree with one part of that. You really are affected.

Raptor

October 15th 2004, 12:28 PM

:rofl:

Ron Macy

October 16th 2004, 02:19 AM

JohnSparks,

Irrelevant? Confusing?
I thought adampastor’s thoughts were pretty clear.

Adampastor clearly quoted Jesus’ own words. Jesus referred to someone other than Himself and called that person, God. Jesus referred to that other person as “My God.” Jesus, the person you have claimed is God, confesses to having a God.

I am incredulous you find that so hard to understand and find it confusing. Jesus, clearly, does not consider Himself to be God.

Well we have the Father calling the Son "God" too. So does that mean Jesus is God and the Father is not?

Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

In what sense do you suppose God is calling Jesus, God?
When I think about it, what you are suggesting is really two Gods. The Father is one God, and Jesus is the other God. This is a quote from Psalm 45. The next verse says this.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

This pretty much reflects what Jesus and others said. Jesus (referred to as God) has a God. Notice the “Your God” is spoken to God. Is this really saying there is a second person who is Almighty God? I don’t think so. I don’t believe the Jews thought so. The “God” who “has a God” is a reference to the King in verses 1 and 5. There is, obviously (to me at least), different usages for the word God (elohim). Some are in reference to the Almighty God, some are in reference to people who represent God, and some are in reference to Kings who rule on God’s behalf (I guess they represent God, too.).

steadele,

Oh yes.............Adampastor, in one short post, has disproved the trinity once and for all......if only we had that post centuries ago we could have avoided all of the deep theological debates on the issue......

Do you really believe that that one post is the final word on the "Did Jesus claim to be God" debate?

Why of course I expect it to be the final word on the “Did Jesus claim to be God” debate!
Say, did I tell you about the great lake bott… I mean ...lake front property I have for sale in Minnesota?

Ron

Warcraft3

October 16th 2004, 01:00 PM

Squeakybro..............I want you to notice the difference between your ridiculous responses and the thought out and reasonable reply from Ron Macy....

While I disagree with Ron on his view of Trinity (he does not believe in it as I do) I can still respect his response. He is trying to use scripture to defend his claim and is providing explanations instead of just posting irrelevant scripture and then saying "Im walking in the spirit and you arent".

The difference is, you squeakybro, are some kind of lunatic and from what I have seen so far, Ron Macy appears to be quite normal.

JohnSparks,

In what sense do you suppose God is calling Jesus, God?
When I think about it, what you are suggesting is really two Gods. The Father is one God, and Jesus is the other God. This is a quote from Psalm 45. The next verse says this.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

This pretty much reflects what Jesus and others said. Jesus (referred to as God) has a God. Notice the “Your God” is spoken to God. Is this really saying there is a second person who is Almighty God? I don’t think so. I don’t believe the Jews thought so. The “God” who “has a God” is a reference to the King in verses 1 and 5. There is, obviously (to me at least), different usages for the word God (elohim). Some are in reference to the Almighty God, some are in reference to people who represent God, and some are in reference to Kings who rule on God’s behalf (I guess they represent God, too.).

Notice the humility in his response.....he writes (to me at least) recognising the fact that others might have different views within scripture.

See squeakybro....when one has humility it gets noticed by other people....you dont have to point it out to them.

steadele,

Why of course I expect it to be the final word on the “Did Jesus claim to be God” debate!
Say, did I tell you about the great lake bott… I mean ...lake front property I have for sale in Minnesota?

Ron

:lol:

Well done :smile:

See squeakybro......Ron recognised the ridiculousness of what I was implying and responded with humor showing me two things....

1 He is well aware that this is a debate that has raged for centuries so neither side has ever 100% convinced the other of their position.

2 The guy has a sense of humor and isnt some deluded lunatic.

Looks like we may end up having a real discussion with Ron Macy in this thread about something we disagree on.

See we cant do that with you squeakybro because you arent willing to discuss anything.

Thanks for the good reply Ron.

:thumb:

Russ

Ron Macy

October 16th 2004, 03:21 PM

...from what I have seen so far, Ron Macy appears to be quite normal.

2 ...and isnt some deluded lunatic.

Let's not be too hasty, here, in our conclusions.

Ron

Warcraft3

October 16th 2004, 03:26 PM

Let's not be too hasty, here, in our conclusions.

Ron
:rofl:

Sparko

October 16th 2004, 06:00 PM

JohnSparks,

In what sense do you suppose God is calling Jesus, God?
When I think about it, what you are suggesting is really two Gods. The Father is one God, and Jesus is the other God. This is a quote from Psalm 45. The next verse says this.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

This pretty much reflects what Jesus and others said. Jesus (referred to as God) has a God. Notice the “Your God” is spoken to God. Is this really saying there is a second person who is Almighty God? I don’t think so. I don’t believe the Jews thought so. The “God” who “has a God” is a reference to the King in verses 1 and 5. There is, obviously (to me at least), different usages for the word God (elohim). Some are in reference to the Almighty God, some are in reference to people who represent God, and some are in reference to Kings who rule on God’s behalf (I guess they represent God, too.).
So in one verse we have the Father calling the Son, "God" and in another verse saying that God the Son has a God (therefore God, your God..) -- looks like perfect symetry to me. It shows the Father is God and the Son is God.

There is quite a difference in Kings who were called Gods (to men) and God himself calling the SON "God" and saying all of God's angels will worship him.

God does not share his worship with anyone. And if all angels will worship the Son, then the Son isn't an Angel. That only leaves "God" and yes it would seem to point to two Gods, except that we know there is only ONE God. So we have two persons who are both "God" - ONE God. This fits perfectly with Trinitarian belief, but does not with non-trinitarian belief.

If there is no trinity we only have one other conclusion, which you pointed out: Two Gods. And we both know that is not true. So non-trinitarianism is not true. It does not fit with scripture.

That's the way I see it.

Lion

October 16th 2004, 07:06 PM

When god promised a redeemer, that redeemer had to be someone who was above the law of god but made himself subject to the same rules as we are, yet wihout sin. Satan argued that the law of god was arbitrary and could not be kept. Jesus came, god in human form,subject to the frailties of humanity, to prove that man can obey the law.

adampastor

October 16th 2004, 07:28 PM

...
There is quite a difference in Kings who were called Gods (to men) and God himself calling the SON "God" and saying all of God's angels will worship him.

God does not share his worship with anyone. And if all angels will worship the Son, then the Son isn't an Angel. That only leaves "God" and yes it would seem to point to two Gods, except that we know there is only ONE God. So we have two persons who are both "God" - ONE God. This fits perfectly with Trinitarian belief, but does not with non-trinitarian belief.

If there is no trinity we only have one other conclusion, which you pointed out: Two Gods. And we both know that is not true. So non-trinitarianism is not true. It does not fit with scripture.

That's the way I see it.I believe you left out another possibility
Imagine if you will, that GOD Himself highly exalts ONE MAN above all His angels, places this MAN at His own right hand. Therefore this man is literally GOD's right hand MAN!
Scripturally, worship (or obeisance ... same Hebrew word) is rightfully given to kings, prophets, dignitaries; as well as to Almighty GOD
ALMIGHTY GOD Alone ought to be worshipped AS ALMIGHTY GOD!
However scripturally, worship/Heb. shachah/Grk. proskuneo, is given to men!
Therefore back to my scenario ... imagine, if you will, Almighty GOD exalts and elevates this MAN above even the angels! Therefore, the angels would be subject to this Highly Exalted MAN. This MAN being second to GOD Himself.
GOD makes this MAN, Lord over all His Creation including the angels.
Therefore, it would not be untoward, that every knee would bow, including the angels, and proclaim that this MAN is Lord to the Glory of Almighty GOD!

Besides if one does not honor GOD's appointed MAN, that would be dishonor to GOD!! We can't have that!!

Guess what! You don't have to imagine this scenario because this is exactly what the Scriptures portray! The MAN in question, is Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Living GOD, who has been made by GOD, both Lord & Messiah

The scriptures portray ONE GOD who alone is Almighty
And ONE MAN who is Lord of all ... this man is the ONE GOD's Son

That's the way I see it.

Ron Macy

October 16th 2004, 09:27 PM

JohnSparks,

God does not share his worship with anyone. And if all angels will worship the Son, then the Son isn't an Angel. That only leaves "God" and yes it would seem to point to two Gods, except that we know there is only ONE God. So we have two persons who are both "God" - ONE God. This fits perfectly with Trinitarian belief, but does not with non-trinitarian belief.

God does not share His worship with false gods. You might want to re-examine the context of that OT passage again. God is contrasting Himself with false gods. He is not saying He will not share worship with His Son.

There is quite a difference in Kings who were called Gods (to men) and God himself calling the SON "God" and saying all of God's angels will worship him.

You are going to have to prove that to me. What exactly is the difference and how can you tell?

If there is no trinity we only have one other conclusion, which you pointed out: Two Gods. And we both know that is not true. So non-trinitarianism is not true. It does not fit with scripture.

That's the way I see it.

You seem to have missed the point of my question about what type of god Jesus is. The Psalm 45 tells us the King is referred to as God. Jesus is that King. Jesus is not Almighty God, but a "lesser" God. One who represents God perfectly to mankind.

Ron

Sparko

October 16th 2004, 11:15 PM

Sorry Ron,

There can be no "lesser" God. It seem you are the one advocating Two Gods. An almighty God and a lesser God.

There is only ONE God. and No other. The Son IS God and because there is only one God, he is the SAME God as the Father.

Isaiah 44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+44:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
6 "This is what the LORD says-
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come-
yes, let him foretell what will come.
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

adampastor

October 17th 2004, 02:12 AM

Sorry Ron,

There can be no "lesser" God. It seem you are the one advocating Two Gods. An almighty God and a lesser God.

There is only ONE God. and No other. The Son IS God and because there is only one God, he is the SAME God as the Father.
YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY is GOD of gods!
NOT GOD of false gods! GOD of all those who are also called gods!
i.e. Moses (Exo 7:1, 4:16), judges (Exo 22:8-9, 22:28; Psa 82:6), angels (Psa 97:7, 82:1, 86:8, Exo 16:11) and the Messianic human king (Psa 45:6).
None of these who are called 'gods' are equal to GOD Almighty! They are ALL subject to YAHWEH GOD Almighty ... GOD Almighty is their GOD! The same goes for the Messiah.
They are all lesser gods!

Nowadays, when we think of the word 'god' ... we think of one being only!
However, in scriptural times, the words [i]elohim or el could mean different things depending on the context! elohim/el are flexible words.
These words could mean men, angels, idols, or the Living and True GOD, YAHWEH Himself ... the context ought to be sought.
Majority of the time, of course, it would me Almighty GOD.
Any other beings given the title god/elohim/el/theos... would be subject to the ONE Almighty GOD.

Jews understood this concept for centuries. It never disturbed absolute monotheism. They understood that none other 'gods' whether they be men or angels, earthly or heavenly, kings or Messiah, could compare to YAHWEH, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; the GOD of the Messiah!

{Tim}

October 17th 2004, 05:47 AM

Hi squeaky,

Tim let me show you what it is talking about.

Rom 14:23
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
(NKJ)

Its talking about reading the Word of God. Its talking about feeding on the Word of God.Although there are times when the Word of God is referred to as food, this is not one of them. The verse that you take out of context is in fact part of a large section that refers to a practical matter of dispute in Rome: some believers said that it was wrong to eat meat purchased at the markets because it may have been offered to idols; thus "demon meat". This is what leads Paul to say:
"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." (v.14)
So it's OK to eat the meat, but if you believe it is wrong, you sin against your conscience by eating. He then goes on to say, however, that while it is OK if it does not offend your conscience, yet if it offends your brother, then you are not walking in love. So he says:
"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offence -- it is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." (v.20-22)
So Paul is saying that there is nothing wrong with eating this meat, so long as you are not doing so in sight of your brother and offend his conscience. He then ties it off by reminding them that still, they must also not offend their own conscience:
"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." (v.23)

So I'd say that you are totally wrong on your interpretation of what that last verse is referring to. No doubt you disagree, but hey - "I think that I too have the Spirit of God," to borrow the apostle's words. So how can you say I'm wrong? :ahem:

John 6:54-56
54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
(NKJ)

Not sure what you meant by this, but if the "flesh and blood" are supposed to refer to the Bible, then you're wrong here too - but I won't go to the bother of explaining this one, as I've already explained the primary verse at issue above.

Bye,
Tim

Ron Macy

October 17th 2004, 05:51 AM

JohnSparks,

Sorry Ron,

There can be no "lesser" God. It seem you are the one advocating Two Gods. An almighty God and a lesser God.

There is only ONE God. and No other. The Son IS God and because there is only one God, he is the SAME God as the Father.

YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY is GOD of gods!
NOT GOD of false gods! GOD of all those who are also called gods!
i.e. Moses (Exo 7:1, 4:16), judges (Exo 22:8-9, 22:28; Psa 82:6), angels (Psa 97:7, 82:1, 86:8, Exo 16:11) and the Messianic human king (Psa 45:6).
None of these who are called 'gods' are equal to GOD Almighty! [Isa 40.18, 46:5, Psa 86.8, 89:6, Exo 15:11] They are ALL subject to YAHWEH GOD Almighty ... GOD Almighty is their GOD! The same goes for the Messiah.
They are all lesser gods!

As adampastor has said, there are a number other ways the word, God, is used. Adampastor's list gives good examples of this designation of other Gods, which corrects your statement.

It is not a matter of two Gods, one greater and one lesser (even though I used that word). There is only one person, one being, who has the nature of God, the Father. All others are given the title, God, because they represent the true God, the one with the nature of God.

The Father is God by nature. Jesus is sometimes called, God, as a title. Jesus does not have the nature of God.

Ron

Sparko

October 17th 2004, 04:53 PM

YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY is GOD of gods!
NOT GOD of false gods! GOD of all those who are also called gods!
i.e. Moses (Exo 7:1, 4:16), judges (Exo 22:8-9, 22:28; Psa 82:6), angels (Psa 97:7, 82:1, 86:8, Exo 16:11) and the Messianic human king (Psa 45:6).
None of these who are called 'gods' are equal to GOD Almighty! They are ALL subject to YAHWEH GOD Almighty ... GOD Almighty is their GOD! The same goes for the Messiah.
They are all lesser gods!

Nowadays, when we think of the word 'god' ... we think of one being only!
However, in scriptural times, the words [i]elohim or el could mean different things depending on the context! elohim/el are flexible words.
These words could mean men, angels, idols, or the Living and True GOD, YAHWEH Himself ... the context ought to be sought.
Majority of the time, of course, it would me Almighty GOD.
Any other beings given the title god/elohim/el/theos... would be subject to the ONE Almighty GOD.

Jews understood this concept for centuries. It never disturbed absolute monotheism. They understood that none other 'gods' whether they be men or angels, earthly or heavenly, kings or Messiah, could compare to YAHWEH, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; the GOD of the Messiah!
Blah, blah, blah. READ THE SCRIPTURE AND STOP MAKING UP YOUR OWN DEFINITIONS.

Isaiah 44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+44:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
6 "This is what the LORD says-
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come-
yes, let him foretell what will come.
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Ron Macy

October 17th 2004, 08:47 PM

JohnSparks,

Blah, blah, blah. READ THE SCRIPTURE AND STOP MAKING UP YOUR OWN DEFINITIONS.

"Blah, blah, blah." I have often wondered why people make the effort to respond to a post and write such nothingness.
It occurs to me, when I see it, the person writing has no response to what has been written in a post. I don't know if that is true or not, but that is what comes to my mind.

As far as the definitions adampastor has offered, why not offer reasons why the definitions provided are not appropriate rather than accusing him of making up definitions? I know it takes a lot more work, but in the long run it is worth it.

Isaiah 44
6 "This is what the LORD says-
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come-
yes, let him foretell what will come.
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
Help me to understand how this passage deals with those who aren't God by nature, but are given the title God because they represent the one who is God by nature.

Ron

Squeakybro

October 17th 2004, 09:39 PM

Ron you said
"Blah, blah, blah." I have often wondered why people make the effort to respond to a post and write such nothingness.
It occurs to me, when I see it, the person writing has no response to what has been written in a post. I don't know if that is true or not, but that is what comes to my mind.

I said
Ron I think it is because they are driven by spirits but they dont have the knowledge.
I get that alot on here. But give them a few days and with help they will come back with something. Nothing that is edifying but they will come back with their version of carnality.

Sparko

October 17th 2004, 11:37 PM

When someone tells me that Jesus is a lesser God, and says that trinitarians are wrong because there can only be ONE God, they are being inconsistant.

And the scripture clearly says that there is Only one God and there are no other gods. NONE. zip. Nada.

So to propose that Jesus is a lesser God goes against scripture and it makes you into polytheists. Which is what you accuse Trinitarians of being.

Funny how when you come right down to it, We Trinitarians are the ones who advocate and defend the doctrine of ONLY ONE GOD and you non-trinitarians end up supporting multiple Gods.

adampastor

October 18th 2004, 06:05 AM

JohnSparks ... you have a bible don't you? We all know that there is solely ONE GOD ALMIGHTY. Therefore, you need to study to find out how it is, GOD Himself could call other beings, whether heavenly or earthly, angelic or human, GODS! ... and how is it, that this does not infringe His Oneness, and how is it they are not all part of the GODHEAD!!

Quote Isa 44:6-8 as much as you want ... the fact is, that verses such as Exo 7:1, 22:8-9, 22:28, 15:11;
Psa 82:6; Psa 97:7, 86:8, 45:6; still stand ... and elohim is used in all of them including Isa 44:6
Jesus himself used Psa 82 to show that men can be called GODS/elohim without it being blasphemy and that Almighty GOD's word cannot be broken.
With the obvious implication that if these men can be called GODS/elohim, so can the man Messiah (hence Psa 45:6, John 20:28) in the very same sense.
These men (spoken of Psa 82 as well as Exo 22 as well as Moses) were not Almighty GOD so neither is Messiah Jesus, the greatest man of them all, the Last Adam, the man whom GOD Almighty has ordained to be Lord of all.

I for one am a nontrinitarian for the simple reason that the Scriptures declare solely ONE Being/Person who is GOD Almighty! This is the creed of Jesus the Messiah ...
(Mark 12:28-32) And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [i.e. YAHWEH our God, YAHWEH is one] ... 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
There is no way from the above statement that one could ascertain that the Messiah or the scribe were trinitarian. They obviously believed solely one being/person was Almighty GOD. Jesus calls his GOD, the only true GOD [John 17:3] and Father.

I believe in the one GOD that the Messiah believes in

Paul outlines it this way ...
(1 Cor 8:4) ... that there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between [the one] God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Paul obviously was no trinitarian ... and he as well as the other apostles, called GOD,
the GOD of and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ [2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3, 1 Pet 1:3] and
the GOD of our Lord Jesus Christ [Eph 1:17]
The apostles were not trinitarians. What was it that they had in common with the Messiah? They solely believed and glorified ONE GOD, who is their GOD and the Messiah's GOD, their Father and the Messiah's Father. [John 20.17]

They didn't believe in multiple gods (and neither do I). They don't speak of a 'triune' God, but of solely one person, who is Almighty GOD.

They simply understood that this ONE GOD confers the title 'GOD' to His Representatives, as shown in Exo 7:1, Psa 82:6, etc. The greatest of His Representatives, therefore, is the man Messiah Jesus, the Son of the Father [2 John 3], whom the ONE GOD, the Father, has made both Lord and Messiah. [Acts 2.36]

JohnSparks, don't just blah blah blah blah
Be Berean and study to see how the words elohim/el are used in the OT and their implications for the NT ... then you will understand using the words of the Master Teacher Jesus as shown in John 10:34-36, in what sense, the Messiah can be called 'GOD'

don't blah blah blah ... be Berean ... do your homework.

Sparko

October 18th 2004, 09:16 AM

Everything you said does not change the simple fact that God said there is NO OTHER GOD BUT HIM, NO NOT ONE. (IS 44:6-7)

Yet the passage in Hebrews, God (the Father) called the Son (Jesus), "God" and says all of his angels will worship him, and in another place that every knee shall bow.
Now how many of those Judges that were called "elohim" were worshiped by men an angels? NONE.

Jesus is God. John 1:1 says he is, as does many other passges. And since there is only ONE God, Jesus is the SAME God as God the Father, yet a different person.

So for you to say Jesus is "lesser" God and allowing him to accept worship from angels and men, is to say there are two Gods and that YHWH is sharing his glory with another, which he said he would not do.

YOU ---> TWO GODS - POLYTHEISTIC

ME ---> ONE GOD - MONOTHEISTIC

Squeakybro

October 18th 2004, 10:20 AM

John if you use the old testament verse for justification of your arguement you could fall from grace. Context.

Gal 5:1-4

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(NKJ)

And you should read Heb again. When God the Father AGAIN BRINGS JESUS INTO THE WORLD. He hasnt done that yet. When HE AGAIN.

Heb 1:6-8
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
(NKJ)

And that worship arguement. If your not careful you might wind up worshiping at my feet. And we know you dont want to have to do that.

Rev 3:9-10
9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie-- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 18th 2004, 11:36 AM

wrong.

Squeakybro

October 18th 2004, 12:34 PM

When it is proven with scripture its right unless you can come back with factual verses disputing it.

John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
(NKJ)

Your opinion is worthless with supporting verses.

Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 18th 2004, 01:06 PM

your opinion is worthless with supporting verses. Cuz you quote out of context.

Squeakybro

October 18th 2004, 05:55 PM

you said
your opinion is worthless with supporting verses. Cuz you quote out of context.

I said
Its only out of context to those in the milk. And it is obvious your still in the milk.

Ron Macy

October 18th 2004, 11:08 PM

JohnSparks,

Everything you said does not change the simple fact that God said there is NO OTHER GOD BUT HIM, NO NOT ONE. (IS 44:6-7)

Yet the passage in Hebrews, God (the Father) called the Son (Jesus), "God" and says all of his angels will worship him, and in another place that every knee shall bow.
Now how many of those Judges that were called "elohim" were worshiped by men an angels? NONE.

So for you to say Jesus is "lesser" God and allowing him to accept worship from angels and men, is to say there are two Gods and that YHWH is sharing his glory with another, which he said he would not do.

If God tells you to worship His Son, who is not God by nature, but human, will you tell Him, "No?" If God tells you to worship this Man, you will tell God, "No?"

Jesus is not a false god as in the context of Isaiah 44. Jesus is God's chosen Messiah. Jesus is the perfect man who died for the sins of the rest of mankind. When God tells you to worship Jesus, it doesn't make any difference what Jesus is, it is your responsibility to obey God's command.

Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Messiah of God, the King who will rule God's Kingdom.

Jesus is God. John 1:1 says he is, as does many other passges. And since there is only ONE God, Jesus is the SAME God as God the Father, yet a different person.

Please show me your version of John 1:1. Jesus is not mentioned in any of the versions I have. John 1:1 does not say Jesus is God.

Ron

Sparko

October 19th 2004, 12:08 AM

Ron,

First you say Jesus is a lesser God, and now you say he is just a man. Make up your mind. I show that there can be no other gods beside YHWH and so now you are claiming Jesus was just a man and that God tells us to worship a man?

God would never say to give worship to another. Worship is to be given to God alone. Everytime men give worship to another man or "god" they are rebuked. God will not share his glory with another "god" or a man.

Isaiah 42:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+42:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"I am the LORD ; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

and exactly where does the bible say Jesus is NOT God?

Squeakybro

October 19th 2004, 07:14 AM

you said
and exactly where does the bible say Jesus is NOT God?

I said
Now I have showed that to you over and over. But I dont mind showing you again.

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

Ron Macy

October 19th 2004, 08:18 AM

JohnSparks,

First you say Jesus is a lesser God, and now you say he is just a man. Make up your mind. I show that there can be no other gods beside YHWH and so now you are claiming Jesus was just a man and that God tells us to worship a man?

Since Jesus is a man, who has been given the title, God, does that not make Jesus "God" in a "lesser" sense than the Almighty God? I have stated over and over that Jesus is not God "by nature," but has been given the title, God. Jesus did not assume the title on His own, God gave it to Him.

God would never say to give worship to another. Worship is to be given to God alone. Everytime men give worship to another man or "god" they are rebuked. God will not share his glory with another "god" or a man.

so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

This verse tells me your assertion is incorrect. God has commanded us to give honor (worship) to God's Son just as one honors (worships) God. That does not make Jesus God. That means God has raised Jesus to a place of honor because of the sacrifice Jesus made. Worship alone, does not prove Jesus is God.

Isaiah 42:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+42:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"I am the LORD ; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Do you not understand what you have quoted? God is contrasting those who worship Him to those who worship idols. God will not share worship with false gods. I have said this several times before.

Jesus is not a false god. Jesus is the Son of God (a distinct being from God), who died for our sins (because God cannot die).

and exactly where does the bible say Jesus is NOT God?

It is just my opinion mind you, but I don't believe the burden of proof is on me to prove Jesus is not God. The burden of proof is on you to prove Jesus is God.

The Bible clearly distinguishes between the persons of the Father and of Jesus. It is my contention that because we live in a world where there is a one to one correspondence between persons and beings, the distinction of persons means a distinction of beings.

I contend the Bible was written from the foundation of this one to one correspondence between persons and beings. I further contend the burden of proof is on you to prove the existence of beings which consist of multiple persons. In my opinion multiple person beings are fiction and fantasy. Prove to me multiple person beings are not fiction and fantasy. Show me the explicit Scriptures which describe their existence.

Ron

Sparko

October 19th 2004, 09:49 AM

Macy,

All scripture must reconcile.

if God says he will not give his Glory to another and he says there are no other Gods, no not one, and he says that we are to worship Jesus....

Then the ONLY way to reconcile all that is if JESUS IS GOD. If Jesus is merely a man with the title God and accepts REAL worship, then that makes him an Idol, a false God. You just said he was not by nature God, so that means that by nature he is a false God, according to the laws of logic and your twisted doctrine.

Now I CAN go through all of the proof texts, but I have done it in different places on TWEB already and even have an article on my web site. But I doubt it will convince you because your mind is made up. Let me know if you want my article and I will post a link to it for you to read.

Squeakybro

October 19th 2004, 10:19 AM

you said
All scripture must reconcile.

I said
Who told you this? The old testament doesnt reconcile with the new testament. That is why they call it the new testament. New implies different. This is what Jesus said and it doesnt reconcile with the old testament.

John 10:8-11
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(NKJ)

Sparko

October 19th 2004, 10:32 AM

Say Ron, do you want to be associated with a loony bin like Squeaky? Who dismisses the Old Testament?

Let's drop this conversation in this thread and take it elsewhere without this clown. There is a trinitarian thread in the JW watchtower area where we have been discussing the trinity and I have posted parts of my article on the trinity with the proof texts you were asking about. You are welcome to jump in there and we can continue to actually have a debate without silly comments by Squeakybro.

Thread is here: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37496

Squeakybro

October 19th 2004, 12:46 PM

That will thrill me and the whole class. You cant see the smiles.

Sparko

October 19th 2004, 01:24 PM

That will thrill me and the whole class. You cant see the smiles.
Me too. then me and Ron can have an intelligent conversation and I can get back to heckling you in this thread.

Squeakybro

October 19th 2004, 06:17 PM

You are to easy. I need your heckling because your the one that keeps my post at the top of the list. lol

Squeakybro

October 19th 2004, 06:20 PM

Oh by the way, stay away from that revelation on covenants your liable to learn something about the old testament you won't like.

Raptor

October 19th 2004, 06:44 PM

Which state are you in Squeak?

Squeakybro

October 19th 2004, 09:23 PM

Which state of what. State of mind?

Raptor

October 19th 2004, 09:40 PM

I think I arlready know that one. :hehe: confusion:hehe:

No, where are you in the U.S.?

Ron Macy

October 19th 2004, 09:47 PM

JohnSparks,

Say Ron, do you want to be associated with a loony bin like Squeaky? Who dismisses the Old Testament?

Let's drop this conversation in this thread and take it elsewhere without this clown.
…
You are welcome to jump in there and we can continue to actually have a debate without silly comments by Squeakybro.

In answer to your first question, yes.

Let me tell you what I see in Squeakybro. I see someone who believes God has given them the responsibility of sharing what he knows of God’s word with others. I can tell from his sentence structure and spelling he hasn’t had a lot of education, but he is being obedient to what he believes God wants him to do. I feel the same call of God as Squeakybro to confront people about what I believe are false ideas they believe come from the scripture, but don’t.

I also see in Squeakybro someone, who given the time and the tutoring, will be able to think circles around those who are mocking him now. I think he already has a head start. Why do I see this? Because he is learning. I have skimmed a lot of what he has written, but I haven’t seen too much in what he writes which mocks others. What command of God are you obeying when you mock someone else?

As for those of you who have made fun of him, I see problems in your sentence structure and spelling as well. Still, I think you, too, have potential as long as you study the scripture with an open mind.

All scripture must reconcile.

if God says he will not give his Glory to another and he says there are no other Gods, no not one, and he says that we are to worship Jesus....

Then the ONLY way to reconcile all that is if JESUS IS GOD. If Jesus is merely a man with the title God and accepts REAL worship, then that makes him an Idol, a false God. You just said he was not by nature God, so that means that by nature he is a false God, according to the laws of logic and your twisted doctrine.

I agree, all scripture must reconcile.

I do not agree the ONLY way it reconciles is by concluding Jesus is God.

The difference between Jesus and the false gods is God has command us to honor/worship Jesus. God has forbidden us to worship false gods.

“ You just said he was not by nature God, so that means that by nature he is a false God, according to the laws of logic and your twisted doctrine.”
I believe your logic here is faulty. There are at least one or two other options for Jesus if He is not by nature God. He can be by nature man. As man, in this case a perfect man, Jesus qualifies for the perfect sacrifice God requires for the sin of the rest of mankind. That does not make Jesus a false god.

I suggest you take time to give this some thought.

Ron

Squeakybro

October 20th 2004, 07:46 AM

Ron I would be interrested in your take on the new revelation I just posted on "Two covenants.

Sparko

October 20th 2004, 12:29 PM

JohnSparks,
but I haven’t seen too much in what he writes which mocks others. What command of God are you obeying when you mock someone else?
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
...
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

[/url] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+37:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on"]Psalm 37:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+37:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming.

Jesus did not put up with false teachers either, he pretty much tore into the pharisees for their evil and boastful ways.

Squeakybro is full of pride thinking he has the only revelation from God. He is a fool and I respond to fools by letting them know they are fools. If he wants to discuss or debate things rationally, I will do so. But so far all he has done is to act like a pride filled fool and claim he is right, we are wrong and call US names if we disagree with him.

As for those of you who have made fun of him, I see problems in your sentence structure and spelling as well. Still, I think you, too, have potential as long as you study the scripture with an open mind.
The times I corrected Squeaky on his spelling was just to point out that he seems to think that he has the final revelation of God, and puts himself on the same level as Paul and Jesus, and yet can't even spell right. On top of that, he says Grammar is from the devil and the bible was written without grammar and context. I know I make spelling and grammar errors too, but I don't claim that grammar is evil. That is just foolish.

I agree, all scripture must reconcile.
Didn't you read Squeaky? He says the Old Testament is no longer scripture!

I do not agree the ONLY way it reconciles is by concluding Jesus is God.

The difference between Jesus and the false gods is God has command us to honor/worship Jesus. God has forbidden us to worship false gods.
Yes, the Father does command us to worship Jesus. He would never tell us to worship a man. Didn't you read the passage where he says he will never give his Glory to another? And yet Jesus is to be worshipped? A mere man? and he shares his Glory with the Father?

If Jesus is a man, then he is an image of God. We are not to make or worship any image of God. To do so would make Jesus an idol, unless he was truly God.

So,

Isaiah 42:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+42:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"I am the LORD ; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

The lord will not give his glory to another. If we worship Jesus he is an idol, if he is a man and not truly God.

But Jesus does share the Father's glory:

Matthew 25:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+25:31&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

John 17:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+17:5&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

This is not just ordinary glory, but God's Glory, Heavenly Glory. Either Jesus is truly God, or Isaiah 42:8 is a lie. Because if he is not God, then God is telling us to worship a man, which would be idolotry, and he is giving his glory to an idol, which he said he would not do.

“ You just said he was not by nature God, so that means that by nature he is a false God, according to the laws of logic and your twisted doctrine.”
I believe your logic here is faulty. There are at least one or two other options for Jesus if He is not by nature God. He can be by nature man. As man, in this case a perfect man, Jesus qualifies for the perfect sacrifice God requires for the sin of the rest of mankind. That does not make Jesus a false god.

It does if we worship him as a God when he is not a God. A God who is not the one TRUE God is a false God, to worship a man is to worship an image of God, literally an Idol. God will not share his glory with another.

Squeakybro

October 20th 2004, 09:05 PM

you said
Squeakybro is full of pride thinking he has the only revelation from God. He is a fool and I respond to fools by letting them know they are fools. If he wants to discuss or debate things rationally, I will do so. But so far all he has done is to act like a pride filled fool and claim he is right, we are wrong and call US names if we disagree with him.

I said
You made a big mistake here.

Matt 5:22
22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
(NKJ)

Ron Macy

October 20th 2004, 09:40 PM

JohnSparks,
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
...
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

[/url] [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+37:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on"]Psalm 37:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PS+37:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming.

Jesus did not put up with false teachers either, he pretty much tore into the pharisees for their evil and boastful ways.

What I gather from these references is you believe you are equal with Jesus or equal with God. If God can mock, you can mock. If Jesus blasted the Pharisees, you can blast Squeakybro. That sounds a little prideful to me.

I prefer to go by

Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

Squeakybro is full of pride thinking he has the only revelation from God. He is a fool and I respond to fools by letting them know they are fools. If he wants to discuss or debate things rationally, I will do so. But so far all he has done is to act like a pride filled fool and claim he is right, we are wrong and call US names if we disagree with him.

Correct me if I am wrong. I may have missed it. Where did Squeakybro say he has the only revelation from God?

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

The times I corrected Squeaky on his spelling was just to point out that he seems to think that he has the final revelation of God, and puts himself on the same level as Paul and Jesus, and yet can't even spell right. On top of that, he says Grammar is from the devil and the bible was written without grammar and context. I know I make spelling and grammar errors too, but I don't claim that grammar is evil. That is just foolish.

Would you be as upset at his "foolishness" if he sided with you in the debate about trinity? Is it possible you are responding harshly to him because he opposes your opinion?

Didn't you read Squeaky? He says the Old Testament is no longer scripture!

Haven't read that part yet.

Yes, the Father does command us to worship Jesus. He would never tell us to worship a man. Didn't you read the passage where he says he will never give his Glory to another? And yet Jesus is to be worshipped? A mere man? and he shares his Glory with the Father?

If Jesus is a man, then he is an image of God. We are not to make or worship any image of God. To do so would make Jesus an idol, unless he was truly God.

"He would never tell us to worship a man."
I believe this is simply a false assumption. But, then again, I don't believe Jesus is a "mere man," either. I believe (and I have stated several times before) Jesus born a perfect man in the same sense as Adam was created perfect. Jesus was restored to the same level of perfection so He could be the anti-type of Adam. Both had the same potential for success or failure. Jesus humbled Himself and was obedient to death. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God.

"If Jesus is a man, then he is an image of God."
I believe you are correct about this.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

So,

Isaiah 42:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+42:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"I am the LORD ; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

The lord will not give his glory to another. If we worship Jesus he is an idol, if he is a man and not truly God.

But Jesus does share the Father's glory:

Matthew 25:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+25:31&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

John 17:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+17:5&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

This is not just ordinary glory, but God's Glory, Heavenly Glory. Either Jesus is truly God, or Isaiah 42:8 is a lie. Because if he is not God, then God is telling us to worship a man, which would be idolotry, and he is giving his glory to an idol, which he said he would not do.

It does if we worship him as a God when he is not a God. A God who is not the one TRUE God is a false God, to worship a man is to worship an image of God, literally an Idol. God will not share his glory with another.

I have never said I worship Jesus as God. I worship Him for what He is, the Man who died for my sins. I worship Jesus as the Messiah. I worship Jesus because God said I should do it. I don't worship Jesus as one who is greater than God. I worship Jesus as One who is second in command of the universe.

My argument is: Jesus, as a perfect man, lived in complete obedience to God to the point of death. For this reason, God has exalted Him to a place of honor over all the rest of creation. The only one excluded from the rulership of Jesus is God, Himself. God command us to give honor to Jesus.

You have every right to disagree with my argument as I have the right to disagree with your argument.
Remember, that doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong. We could both be wrong. We, both, need to rely on God's grace to forgive us where our doctrines don't match His. I believe He will.

Ron