Babel and the Sovereign God [Archive]

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Bammer

September 27th 2004, 04:10 PM

barryrob

September 28th 2004, 07:46 PM

As I understand it, JWs believe that there is a dispute between Satan and God about whether human beings can manage without God. Satan claimed the people of earth didn't need God to have good lives, and God is now letting us try out every type of government (dictatorship, democracy, monarchy etc.) so that it may be proven that without God, humans don't stand a chance.

A. Is this correct or have I misunderstood something?

Because if this is indeed what JWs believe, how do JWs fit the Genesis story of the tower of Babel into this belief? This story (found in Genesis 11) shows God giving the people of earth different languages so that they are confused and unable to unite in the building of the great tower. This indicates that God did not allow them to try all forms of government or rule as they pleased.

B. Any thoughts or comments?

Best regards
BammerA. Yes:-

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the heart of a man, but the counsel of Jehovah is what will stand.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 See! This only I have found, that the [true] God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out many plans."

Deuteronomy 32:5 They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!

Man has tried all type of goverment and thye all end up as:-

Proverbs 14:12 There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward.

No matter how good they are they cannot bring True Peace and Security or an end to Death which only God's Power to do.

B. Nimrod (which means 'Rebel', very apporprate for that Satanic person) set about with the start of Nationalism* against God's rule:-

*Genesis 11:4 let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, ....." Not making God's name Celabrated as Sovereign but his won instead, an opposing rule over men.

Nimrod tried to stop God's purpose to have men spread over the earth** so they would remain under his control:-

**Genesis 11:4 fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth."

Jehovah interviened on both counts a) thoughting Nimrod despotic rule but b) making men spread over the earth:-

Genesis 11:7-8 Come now! Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not listen to one another’s language." 8 Accordingly Jehovah scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth

It was God will for men to fill the earth not to stay in one place and you will also note that in Gen Ch. 1 it was God not God purpose for humans to rule humans, as it is not even mentioned there, that only come into the picture after mans fall and disobenance against Jehovah as now they had decied to 'do thier own thing' and rule themselves but now under the influcnce of Satan.

So God let them try to see it they could bring peace an end to sin and death and turn the earth into a paradice by themselves:-

Deuteronomy 32:5 They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!

The above started with Adam & Eve and continues down to today:-

The book 'Legacy’ (pp. 48-49) a search for the origins of civilisation the historian Michael Wood (T.V. Program) in the section headed 'The Legacy of Iraq’ makes this statement after discussing Babylonian people, trade, politics, religion, etc.:-
"The Mesopotamians conceived of civilisation as separate form nature, set in a artificial environment of man's creation, ... Why this happened only in the near east towards 3,000 BC in one of the great questions of history. For these ideas were transmitted to later civilisations of the west, developed there and became enshrined as universal experience by the west ... these are now seen as the driving force of history."

"The roots of our modern world lie in the civilisation of Mesopotamia, which saw the development of the first urban society and writing."-Early Mesopotamia by J.N. Postgate (back cover)

"The Near East has been selected as the geographical setting in which to examine the rise of civilisation because changes took place there at a very early date, perhaps earlier than any else in the world. In addition to this temporal priority, the history and prehistory of the Near East affected the emergence of the Western World."-'the rise of civilisation' from EARLY FARMERS To URBAN SOCIETY IN THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST BY Charles l. REDMAN p.1

"There can be no question of the importance of Asiatic developments, for there is every reason to think that the traditional belief in Asia as the original cradle of the human race is true . . ."-'The Age of the Gods' by Christopher Dawson p.65

"Even to-day it is to the Sumerians that we owe our divisions of time, and the sexagesimal system of reckoning by multiples of six and ten, which still survives in our coinage, and many weights and measures, as well as in 360 degrees of the circle.

But the worldwide influance of the Babylonian culture can be seen most clearly in the remarkable diffusion of the Babylonian theory of divination and astrology which extended through the Old World from Europe to China. -'The Age of the Gods' by Christopher Dawson p.134

"Writing . . . The earliest forms of writing are ono-phonological; that is; they do not represent the sounds of a language. The first pictogram system (direct representations of simple objects and notions) was that of the SUMERIANS in c.3400 BC. Pictographic writing evolved into ideographic. Ideograms depict more abstract concepts, ideas, and expressions."-Oxford World Encyclopaedia p.1448

"It has been suggested that Sumer also supplies the first evidence of long-distance campaigning, in the saga of Gilgamesh, king of the city of Uruk about 2700 BC."-'A history of warfare' by John Keegan p.133

"The Europen armies of the age of imperialism owed one pillar of their efficiency to a principle established off the steppe: that of bureaucratic organisation, founded in Sumer and Assyria, translated through Persia to Macedon, Rome and Byzantium, and artificially revived from classical sources at the Renaissance." -'A history of warfare' by John Keegan p.216

"An authoritative and comprehensive collection of myths such as this book* provides, therefore, is of absorbing interest and topical significance. It may seem extreme to begin in Mesopotamia, but that was where much of the mythology first emerged which framed the culture of the near east and the western world."-*'Pears Encyclopaedia of Myths and Legends' Ed by M. Baker & C. Cook p.11

Hence the Bible calls the World Empire of false religion:-

Revelation 17:5) . . ."Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.". . .

As it is the Mother of all the above systems that are at heart anti God. As the name "Babel" indicates the world in mans hands under the control of Satan is in total "Confusion," the meaning of the word "Babel." A confusion of Religions, Political ideas, under the influance of commercial intrest and Greed.

Just a few thoughts
Barryrob

NonTrinitarian

September 28th 2004, 11:00 PM

Bammer

September 30th 2004, 05:11 PM

A. Yes:-
B. ...

Jehovah interviened on both counts a) thoughting Nimrod despotic rule but b) making men spread over the earth:-

Barrybob, I'm sorry but I can't see if you've responded to my post or just written in general about Nimrod.

I wanted to know how the people of that time were supposed to prove whether or not they could rule succesfully on earth, if God was going to try and prevent them from doing what they wanted by giving them new obstacles. Specifically, in the case of the tower of Babel, they seemed to be doing fine (at least that's what God seemed to think) but then he prevented them from going on with what they were doing.

God may have had his reasons for confusing them (wanting them to be scattered all over the earth) but was he really giving them the freedom to try any form of rule? Has it been proven that the form of community that Nimrod attempted to build couldn't work?

You mentioned bringing and end to sin. Are humans also supposed to prove that we can 'kill' death without God?

You also wrote that humans are to "...rule themselves but now under the influcnce of Satan". So is that what humans are supposed to prove now? That human being can build a succesful community while being under the influence of Satan? What is that going to prove? What will be proven if we fail? I'll tell you what - nothing!

A final note: You should know that when you copy/paste such large sections into your post instead of writing the thoughts with your own words, I don't read them carefully (if at all). I have already read some JW litterature - if I had found the answers in there, I wouldn't come asking here.

Best regards

Bammer

Bammer

September 30th 2004, 05:16 PM

This argument is built on several faulty premise. Firstly, you are taking it upon yourself to set the criteria for God. That is, you believe that if the JW belief is true then God would have done such and such.

NonTrinitarian,

I find it strange that you think I am setting criteria for God in my post. As far as I know, there is no scripture in the bible where it specifically says that a dispute between Satan and God about whether God is sovereign or not is currently being settled. This is a JW belief based on a specific interpretation of the bible, is that not correct?

I am not setting criteria for God. I am reading his words in the bible. His own words are, if they all speak the same language, "...nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them". So by Gods criteria - not mine - they were being quite succesful, yes? I mean, if they are in a position to do anything they plan to do, they are doing very well! If they planned on being a succesful, peaceful community, they could - according to God - be so. If you think there is a flaw in this logic, please point it out to me.

But the truth is not seen by those who are strong-willed and stubborn. Even after Armegedon some could say ‘but if you gave them just a little more time they would have worked it out.’ Such ones are stubborn and in denial. Honest hearted ones will quickly say that only Christ as King can solve mankind’s problems.
You seem to think it is a question of time. Where do you get that idea? I never mentioned whether they should have had more time or not. In the time it took them to settle down and build the tower, God seemed to think they were doing well. The bible doesn't say that if they had been given more time they might have done better - it says they were doing well by the time God decided to scatter them. I am not talking about time. I have never said God should have given them more time. So who is in denial??

You then bring the flood into the picture. Well, I wanted to focus on the Babel story, but if you feel this story is relevant, I guess you should explain how the flood fits into the idea that God is letting mankind prove whether it can govern itself or not - and don't forget to mention the Nephilim.

As I see it, JWs believe that God decided (after the fall?) to let people show whether or not they could build a succesful, peaceful community on earth.
- He did not, however, allow them to have eternal life, as they had before and (as promised) will have again when God is to rule.
- He also did not prevent the angels from coming down to earth, disrupting the community and making Nephilim.
- He did however decide to bring the most horrific disaster imaginable - the flood - on earth, thereby killing everyone save 8 persons, making mankind "start over" in their attempt to make a succesful community.
- And as mentioned in Genesis 11, just as something seemed to be going right for humans, he decided to scatter the people of earth by giving them all different languages - a factor that to this day is one of the main reasons people of different ethnical background have trouble living in harmony.

Do you not see a problem with this?

When I talk to JWs, I find that they quite often have a good recollection - and understanding in some cases - of the individual stories in the bible. But they don't seem interested in the "big picture" - the overview of all the stories. Therefore, the story of the tower of Babel is just the story where God decides to give humans a variety of languages because they were not fulfilling his desire to fill the earth, and that Nimrod guy was a nasty fellow! Try to view the individual stories in the bible as pieces in the big puzzle, and you might find that the picture you get is not exactly as you thought it would be.

Best regards
Bammer

NonTrinitarian

September 30th 2004, 11:37 PM

NonTrinitarian,

I find it strange that you think I am setting criteria for God in my post. As far as I know, there is no scripture in the bible where it specifically says that a dispute between Satan and God about whether God is sovereign or not is currently being settled. This is a JW belief based on a specific interpretation of the bible, is that not correct?

Yes, it is based on looking at, what did you call it, the “big picture”. There are a lot of things not specifically said on many subjects but what is said is that God was with-holding good from his followers and that man could be like God (ie,. Not need him anymore) if they ate from the tree. They made the choice and since then man has been trying to do it without God.

I am not setting criteria for God. I am reading his words in the bible. His own words are, if they all speak the same language, "...nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them". So by Gods criteria - not mine - they were being quite succesful, yes? I mean, if they are in a position to do anything they plan to do, they are doing very well! If they planned on being a succesful, peaceful community, they could - according to God - be so. If you think there is a flaw in this logic, please point it out to me.

HUGE flaw in this logic. You take it upon yourself to determine what is meant by whether they could do anything, do you not? For instance, you take it to mean a literal sense of them really being able to accomplish anything, including successfully governing themselves in a manner that would eliminate ALL crime, sickness, poverty, injustice and I could go on for pages. You apparently think God thought they could build a tower all the way “into the heavens” if they wanted to. I’m not sure how speaking the same language overcomes the laws of physics. There are many scholars, in fact, I know not ONE that says that God meant these people could do whatever they wanted. Do you? Do you have a quote from ONE scholar that believes that’s what God meant? I doubt it.

And note that what they “planed to do” was go against God’s command. They were only successful in going AGAINST God’s commands.

You seem to think it is a question of time. Where do you get that idea? I never mentioned whether they should have had more time or not. In the time it took them to settle down and build the tower, God seemed to think they were doing well. The bible doesn't say that if they had been given more time they might have done better - it says they were doing well by the time God decided to scatter them. I am not talking about time. I have never said God should have given them more time. So who is in denial??

Actually, God did not think they were doing quite well for themselves. Going against God’s command was not “doing quite well”. Time came up because you implied that here was a group of people who spoke one language and it appeared to you that the fact that they spoke one language meant they could have successfully governed themselves without God. JW’s believe as long as there is crime, sickness, poverty and death they are not being successful. But that’s besides the point. My point with time is that for over 2 thousand years the earth was one language and the result was that it had to be destroyed and thus they were not too successful in God’s eyes. These ones at Babel were only successful in going against God’s command and they would have continued to do whatever they wanted in an attempt to GO AGAINST GOD’S COMMANDS. And you’re a fool if you think God thought they were “doing well”.

You then bring the flood into the picture. Well, I wanted to focus on the Babel story, but if you feel this story is relevant, I guess you should explain how the flood fits into the idea that God is letting mankind prove whether it can govern itself or not - and don't forget to mention the Nephilim.

The story is relevant because you made a big hoopla on how their being one language was key to them being successful when it is patently obvious that one language didn’t mean squat as far as being successful as it got so bad God had to wipe out the whole world.

As I see it, JWs believe that God decided (after the fall?) to let people show whether or not they could build a succesful, peaceful community on earth.
- He did not, however, allow them to have eternal life, as they had before and (as promised) will have again when God is to rule.
- He also did not prevent the angels from coming down to earth, disrupting the community and making Nephilim.
- He did however decide to bring the most horrific disaster imaginable - the flood - on earth, thereby killing everyone save 8 persons, making mankind "start over" in their attempt to make a succesful community.
- And as mentioned in Genesis 11, just as something seemed to be going right for humans, he decided to scatter the people of earth by giving them all different languages - a factor that to this day is one of the main reasons people of different ethnical background have trouble living in harmony.

Do you not see a problem with this?

I see several problems with it, particularly with your snide comments inserted between statements of our beliefs. And again, if you think the ones at Babel had something “going right for humans” then you have a twisted vision of what is “right”. How in the world could going against God’s command be doing something “right”. Furthermore, you imply that it was the “one language” that was what was helping them get it right (by going against God’s command) and yet this “one language” hadn’t done squat for them for the previous 2000 years!

When I talk to JWs, I find that they quite often have a good recollection - and understanding in some cases - of the individual stories in the bible. But they don't seem interested in the "big picture" - the overview of all the stories. Therefore, the story of the tower of Babel is just the story where God decides to give humans a variety of languages because they were not fulfilling his desire to fill the earth, and that Nimrod guy was a nasty fellow! Try to view the individual stories in the bible as pieces in the big puzzle, and you might find that the picture you get is not exactly as you thought it would be.

Best regards
Bammer

The irony abounds. It is you that has no idea of the big picture. I believe Barryrob’s post explains quite a bit about our view of Babel and I think he supplied a little more than a “story where God decides to give humans a variety of languages because they were not fulfilling his desire to fill the earth, and that Nimrod guy was a nasty fellow!”

You may talk with JW’s but it’s clear you don’t listen. And I hope if you picked up ONE thing form this discussion is an understanding that going against God’s command does not make one “successful” because you seem to think it does.

Bammer

October 4th 2004, 06:31 PM

Hi. Sorry for taking such a long time to respond - I have been even more busy than I was expecting.

Anyway, in your last post I still see a whole bunch of different theories and arguments that don't really fit together, yet you still present them all as if they supported each other perfectly. I guess I should try to show you the individual statements you are actually making so that you can show me how you still believe they fit together and relate to the issue of the tower of Babel.

But to start with, I can show a quote from a watchtower that has a comment on this subject. I'm translating from my local language so it's not a word-for-word quote. After mentioning the fall in the garden of Eden it says..

A moral dispute had been raised. Satan had questioned the righteousness of Jehovahs way of ruling. In his wisdom, God allowed for some time to pass so that it might be proven that independence of him leads to misfortune. Jehovah let the rebels live for a period, thereby letting Adam and Even have offspring.
Only a small minority of the seed of Adam have submitted to Jehovas rule, but Gods way of dealing with those who worship him has shown that his reign is certainly to be preferred. If one properly submits to Jehovas authority, it leads to happiness and prosperity. The result of the rule of humans under the influence of Satan has on the other hand been misery and a world where noone can feel safe. Yes, "...man has dominated man to his injury" (Ecclesiastes 8:9). True joy and everlasting happiness under the rule of humans has not been achieved in this world, which is in the hands of Satan.

It would of course be good if you could provide the actual quote from the english watchtower.

So, what the watchtower says here is that is has not been possible for the people of earth to achieve a society of safety and happiness. And JWs believe that God was wise to allow people on earth some time to live without his aid, so that it could be proven that the human race is absolutely dependent on God.

When you, NonTrinitarian, then write a thing like this:

And again, if you think the ones at Babel[color=black] had something “going right for humans” then you have a twisted vision of what is “right”. How in the world could going against God’s command be doing something “right”.

...it tells me you probably don't even know what you're expected to believe. The whole point of God letting them try to handle things without him was - according to the watchtower society - that it might be shown that humans do indeed depend on him. So for you to be arguing that trying to manage without God can never be right is ... well.. misunderstood to put it mildly. You are completely missing the point.

And the point is - just to get back to the issue of the tower of Babel - that the story of the tower of Babel so clearly shows that God is NOT giving the human race a period in which to try and be succesful without him. Probably the most important theme in the Old Testament is that humans should not try to live their life without worshipping YHWH, because he demands worship! The big issue in the Old Testament is not whether people could build a succesful community without God - the issue is that they should not even try, because God demands worship - period!

As for the stuff you wrote about whether God thought the people at the tower of Babel where doing well or not, well - once again you must be imagining things. From the 6th verse where God says "...nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them", I gather that God thought they where doing well. And that is what I wrote. You are welcome to try to show me why this is not so. But when you try to make it seem as though what I was arguing was that the people at the tower of Babel could suddenly break the laws of physics, you quite frankly just sound silly. You are making things up. It doesn't really help your case.

Maybe I can make you understand what I am talking about by using something you said yourself. You write: "And note that what they “planed to do” was go against God’s command."
Now tell me, wasn't this what they where supposed to? Were they not supposed to try this very thing - living without worshipping God - so that it might be proven that (to use the words of the watchtower) "... it might be proven that independence of him leads to misfortune"?

You make some other comments in your post that I would like you to elaborate on. For instance, you write "JW’s believe as long as there is crime, sickness, poverty and death they are not being successful".
I have heard JWs mention this thing about sickness and death before. Could you please explain to me where it says in the bible that humans can only build a succesful community if they get rid of sickness and death? If you are going to bring up Genesis 3, I should remind you of a couple of things. First of all, it is Satan, not humans, making the claim (lie) that Adam and Eve wouldn't die even if they ate the forbidden fruit. Second, where does it say anything about sickness? Third, who gave humans sickness and death? God gave that to us, according to the bible. Therefore, it has clearly been shown that Satan was a liar, and that God has the power to take away the gift of eternal life. What needs to be proven???

Also, please explain another thing to me: If humans can only build a succesfull community if they remove sickness and death, then how can this NOT be a matter of time? You spent some time in your first post writing about whether someone could say "if only they had a little more time". Well, has it been proven that humans could never remove sickness and death from their lives? No!

Long post and it's getting late. Just one more thing I think you should think of: When is God going to prove that he can build a succesful community given the conditions that we have now? When is he going to prove that he could give humans a life of happiness and safety in a world where sickness, death, natural disasters and terrible accidents can happen all the time? Is he never going to prove that? Then why should humans try to prove that??

To summarize: The point of the Old Testament is to show that humans must worship YHWH and obey his commands, because that is what he requires of us. That is Gods justification for scattering the people at the tower of Babel. Whether it would be possible to build a happy, safe community without him is not an issue in the Old Testament.

Best regards
Bammer

NonTrinitarian

October 5th 2004, 09:05 PM

A moral dispute had been raised. Satan had questioned the righteousness of Jehovahs way of ruling. In his wisdom, God allowed for some time to pass so that it might be proven that independence of him leads to misfortune. Jehovah let the rebels live for a period, thereby letting Adam and Even have
offspring.
Only a small minority of the seed of Adam have submitted to Jehovas
rule, but Gods way of dealing with those who worship him has shown that his
reign is certainly to be preferred. If one properly submits to Jehovas
authority, it leads to happiness and prosperity. The result of the rule of
humans under the influence of Satan has on the other hand been misery and a
world where noone can feel safe. Yes, "...man has dominated man to his
injury" (Ecclesiastes 8:9). True joy and everlasting happiness under the
rule of humans has not been achieved in this world, which is in the hands of
Satan.

It would of course be good if you could provide the actual quote from the
english watchtower
Here it is:
Yet, there was a moral issue involved. Satan had called into question the rightfulness of Jehovah's way of ruling. In his wisdom, God allowed time to pass so that it could be proved that independence from him brings disaster. Jehovah permitted the rebels to continue living for a time, allowing Adam and Eve to have offspring.-Genesis 3:14-19.

Though most of Adam's offspring have not submitted to Jehovah's rulership, God's dealings with His worshipers have demonstrated its superiority. Proper recognition of Jehovah's authority brings happiness and true security. On the other hand, misery and insecurity have resulted from human rule under Satan's influence. Yes, "man has dominated man to his injury." (Ecclesiastes 8:9) Humans have not found genuine security and lasting happiness under human rule in this world lying in Satan's power Pretty much the same as your translation.

So, what the watchtower says here is that is has not been possible for the
people of earth to achieve a society of safety and happiness. And JWs
believe that God was wise to allow people on earth some time to live without
his aid, so that it could be proven that the human race is absolutely
dependent on God.

When you, NonTrinitarian, then write a thing like this:

And again, if you think the ones at Babel had something
"going right for humans" then you have a twisted vision of what is "right". How in the world could going against God's command be doing something "right". ...it tells me you probably don't even know what you're expected to believe.
The whole point of God letting them try to handle things without him was -
according to the watchtower society - that it might be shown that humans do indeed depend on him. So for you to be arguing that trying to manage without God can never be right is ... well.. misunderstood to put it mildly. You are completely missing the point. Why don't you point out to me where my comments were in disagreement with the Watchtower's. You may be able to read English but I don't think you comprehend it quite as well. My comment above is in perfect harmony with the WT's comments and it is you who have misunderstood. Additionally, you have skewed my comments by taking them out of context. You said the people in Babel were doing well and I pointed out that they were going directly against God's command and so they were not doing well. Please underline the sentence in the WT comment that this contradicts. And yes, I stand by my comment that humans trying to manage themselves without God cannot be right.

And the point is - just to get back to the issue of the tower of Babel -
that the story of the tower of Babel so clearly shows that God is NOT giving
the human race a period in which to try and be succesful without him.
Probably the most important theme in the Old Testament is that humans should
not try to live their life without worshipping YHWH, because he demands
worship! The big issue in the Old Testament is not whether people could
build a succesful community without God - the issue is that they should not
even try, because God demands worship - period! Please demonstrate how God was not giving man a "period in which to try to be successful." You earlier argued that you were not arguing about periods of time and now you're flip-flopping back to arguing about periods of time. I've already shown that man had over 2000 years of speaking the same language in order to get things right for himself. In that period it became so bad that God had to destroy the world. Your argument about Babel could be used with the Egyptions, Babylonians, Asyrians, etc. They could all say that God didn't give them "a period in which to try and be successful without him"

As for the stuff you wrote about whether God thought the people at the tower
of Babel where doing well or not, well - once again you must be imagining
things. From the 6th verse where God says "...nothing they plan to do will
be impossible for them", I gather that God thought they where doing well.
And that is what I wrote. You are welcome to try to show me why this is not
so. But when you try to make it seem as though what I was arguing was that
the people at the tower of Babel could suddenly break the laws of physics,
you quite frankly just sound silly. You are making things up. It doesn't
really help your case. Only if one has a warped view of "well". I can say a whore is such a good whore that she could succeed in getting any man to fornicate with her. God could say "nothing she plans to do will be impossible for her" and yet I do not think God thinks she is doing well for herself. God gave these men a command to spread out across the earth and they intentionally disobeyed it. I think my case rests on their not doing well.

I mentioned the law of physics because you are taking the phrase ""...nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them..." to a certain point and stopping. But do you notice it's YOUR choice as to where it stops? You arbitrarily stopped at the point that these men could govern themselves without God in a successful manner. Why did you stop there? Because it suited your interests? I am merely pointing out that you were arbitrarily saying that this phrase meant they could successfully govern themselves and that you might have well gone on and said they can break the laws of physics too. Let me rephrase it for you. Just as that phrase in no way proves they would have been able to break the laws of physics, it in no way proves they could have governed themselves successfully without God. You have simply decided to take it upon yourself to arbitrarily decide what it means. The problem is that I don't hold your arbitrary decisions as gospel.

Maybe I can make you understand what I am talking about by using something
you said yourself. You write: "And note that what they "planed to do" was go
against God's command."
Now tell me, wasn't this what they where supposed to? Were they not supposed
to try this very thing - living without worshipping God - so that it might
be proven that (to use the words of the watchtower) "... it might be proven
that independence of him leads to misfortune"? No. Where in ANY JW publication or in my posts has ANYONE said man is supposed to try and rule himself independently of God? JW's have repeatedly said that man cannot succeed without God and that those that do will fail. Stop putting words in our mouths and then knocking down the straw men. God has destroyed many kingdoms. Babel was just one of many. He didn't destroy these kingdoms because he was worried they would prove they could succesfully rule themselves without him. You seem to pick out Babel for one reason. Because they were one language. In fact, that is the whole crux of your argument. But mankind was one language for two millenniums with no success. And all God did was change their languages. The evidence shows that it wasn't because of their success in government that he did that. He did it because they were refusing to spread out. And he spread them out. It didn't have anything to do with whether they were a successful government. Shoot, these people, if they were so successful as a government, could have gone to their different parts of the earth with other people of the same language and set up the same form of government. After all, if that form of government was so successful, according to you, they should have been able to avoid going to war with each other just because of a different language. They were obviously not as successful as you want to think.

You make some other comments in your post that I would like you to elaborate
on. For instance, you write "JW's believe as long as there is crime,
sickness, poverty and death they are not being successful".
I have heard JWs mention this thing about sickness and death before. Could
you please explain to me where it says in the bible that humans can only
build a succesful community if they get rid of sickness and death? If you
are going to bring up Genesis 3, I should remind you of a couple of things.
First of all, it is Satan, not humans, making the claim (lie) that Adam and
Eve wouldn't die even if they ate the forbidden fruit. Second, where does it
say anything about sickness? Third, who gave humans sickness and death? God
gave that to us, according to the bible. Therefore, it has clearly been
shown that Satan was a liar, and that God has the power to take away the
gift of eternal life. What needs to be proven??? If you're looking for a statement in the Bible that says "and God let man have an opportunity to prove he can successfully ...." Then you're not going to find it. But you know what else you're not going to find? A whole lot of other truths spelled out in black and white. You have to be able to comprehend an argument and see what it is saying.

In Gen 3 Satan implied that 1.) God was a liar 2.) That he was not a good ruler because He was trying to withhold something good from Adam and Eve and 3.) That they didn't need God as their ruler because they would become like God knowing good and bad. And I might add to this that even though you said it was Satan who called God a liar and not humans, by default Eve and Adam ALSO called God a liar by believing Satan. IE, they TOO obviously thought God was a liar or they wouldn't have eaten the fruit. These are basic logical deductions from the verses that you don't grasp.

Also, the perfect man Jesus, the last Adam, was not sick when he was on earth so obviously sickness comes from imperfection inherited from Adam, something Jesus didn't get. That's another one of those points you get only by thinking on the matter. And you are totally wrong in saying the God gave man sickness in death. He in no way did. He simply took away the perfect nature of the flesh that fought it off. There is a big difference. God did exactly what he said he would do. Kill Adam. He did this by removing the never-ending life from him and allowing him to grow old, become sick and die.

And obviously your little scenario of "Therefore, it has clearly been shown that Satan was a liar, and that God has the power to take away the gift of eternal life. What needs to be proven???" doesn't address the issues raised regarding points #2 and 3 above. Your scenario ONLY answers the first issue of whether God was a liar.

Also, please explain another thing to me: If humans can only build a
succesfull community if they remove sickness and death, then how can this
NOT be a matter of time? You spent some time in your first post writing
about whether someone could say "if only they had a little more time". Well,
has it been proven that humans could never remove sickness and death from
their lives? No! And thus it is obvious that they need God's rule. How does this refute my argument? Man has been living to around 70-80 years since Moses. All of the scientific advances man has made and we still die around then. True, they brought more people up to 70 and 80 years but the overall limit hasn't changed. God is simply showing man the consequences of going against His will and so far you haven't provided anything to disrupt our argument. Everything is based off of Babel and their one language and I've shown several times now that it is you who have ARBITRARILY said that the 'nothing they can't accomplish' applies to a successful government. I pointed out the folly in that argument.

Long post and it's getting late. Just one more thing I think you should
think of: When is God going to prove that he can build a succesful community
given the conditions that we have now? When is he going to prove that he
could give humans a life of happiness and safety in a world where sickness,
death, natural disasters and terrible accidents can happen all the time? Is
he never going to prove that? Then why should humans try to prove that?? He isn't. A successful government REMOVES the conditions we have now. It doesn't try to live within them. Man hasn't been able to do it. God's Kingdom will. Man concientiously made the decision to reject God's rulership when they ate of the fruit. They wanted to be like God, knowing good and bad for themselves. When they rejected God's rulership, they rejected all the blessings that come with it. The conditions you listed for instance. Now WHY would God try to prove he can give eternal happiness in His Kingdom if we still had all the problems we're inflicted with today? Your question is borderline idiotic!

To summarize: The point of the Old Testament is to show that humans must worship YHWH and obey his commands, because that is what he requires of us. That is Gods justification for scattering the people at the tower of Babel. Whether it would be possible to build a happy, safe community without him is not an issue in the Old Testament. Just keep repeating that paragraph to yourself and ignore the issues that Satan raised regarding God's rulership.

barryrob

October 6th 2004, 05:47 AM

Barrybob, I'm sorry but I can't see if you've responded to my post or just written in general about Nimrod.

I wanted to know how the people of that time were supposed to prove whether or not they could rule succesfully on earth, if God was going to try and prevent them from doing what they wanted by giving them new obstacles. Specifically, in the case of the tower of Babel, they seemed to be doing fine (at least that's what God seemed to think) but then he prevented them from going on with what they were doing.

God may have had his reasons for confusing them (wanting them to be scattered all over the earth) but was he really giving them the freedom to try any form of rule? Has it been proven that the form of community that Nimrod attempted to build couldn't work?

You mentioned bringing and end to sin. Are humans also supposed to prove that we can 'kill' death without God?

You also wrote that humans are to "...rule themselves but now under the influcnce of Satan". So is that what humans are supposed to prove now? That human being can build a succesful community while being under the influence of Satan? What is that going to prove? What will be proven if we fail? I'll tell you what - nothing!

A final note: You should know that when you copy/paste such large sections into your post instead of writing the thoughts with your own words, I don't read them carefully (if at all). I have already read some JW litterature - if I had found the answers in there, I wouldn't come asking here.

Best regards

BammerI wanted to know how the people of that time were supposed to prove whether or not they could rule successfully on earth, if God was going to try and prevent them from doing what they wanted by giving them new obstacles. Specifically, in the case of the tower of Babel, they seemed to be doing fine (at least that's what God seemed to think) but then he prevented them from going on with what they were doing.

[[[Ans. The proof would be in the passage of time. What has time shown, as the major institutions that started in Babel under Nimrod (the ones listed in my post) have shown the results, chaos (a babel of inept guidelines for governing humans) thus proving God right. You say "they seemed to be doing fine" from who’s view point? Not Gods as he said:-
Genesis 10:8-12 And Cush became father to Nim´rod. He made the start in becoming a mighty one in the earth. 9 He displayed himself a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah. That is why there is a saying: "Just like Nim´rod a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah." 10 And the beginning of his kingdom came to be Ba´bel and E´rech and Ac´cad and Cal´neh, in the land of Shi´nar. 11 Out of that land he went forth into As·syr´i·a and set himself to building Nin´e·veh and Re·ho´both-Ir and Ca´lah 12 and Re´sen between Nin´e·veh and Ca´lah: this is the great city.

Look up the History of the kind of rulership instituted upon the Assyrian people and those whom they conquered as see if the kind of rule would please you or God, as this is Nimrodic rule?

Which will also show the answer to your following question:-

"God may have had his reasons for confusing them (wanting them to be scattered all over the earth) but was he really giving them the freedom to try any form of rule? Has it been proven that the form of community that Nimrod attempted to build couldn't work?"

You mentioned bringing and end to sin. Are humans also supposed to prove that we can 'kill' death without God?

[[[Ans. The religions of the world today mostly claim that they have (killed death) in that as they teach that when a person dies his soul/spirit does not, it goes to dwell in another place or they transmigrate into another form of living things, which are all untrue. This is a reflection of what The Devil said at:-

Genesis 3:4 At this the serpent said to the woman: "YOU positively will not die"

Adam and Eve died so the Devil found another way the perptuate his lie via Babylonian religion:-

The Ancient Gods' by E. O. James page 178 and 179 "The Sumerian mortuary cultus . . . the Sumerians* made provision for the sustenance and well-being of their dead by placing in their earth and brick graves an adequate supply of food and drink, which sometimes seems to have been renewed by monthly by offerings, together with personal belongings. . . . Indeed, while the grave goods suggest a belief in human survival, individual immortality may not have acquired a cultic significance.**"
*Sumer = Southern Babylionia.
**But it did as Babylinian religious ideas spread earth wide.]]]

You also wrote that humans are to "...rule themselves but now under the influence of Satan". So is that what humans are supposed to prove now? That human being can build a successful community while being under the influence of Satan? What is that going to prove? What will be proven if we fail? I'll tell you what - nothing!

[[[Ans. That is what humans knowingly or unknowingly do. What have the results show that it is better that God’s ways of doing things?]]]

A final note: You should know that when you copy/paste such large sections into your post instead of writing the thoughts with your own words, I don't read them carefully (if at all). I have already read some JW literature - if I had found the answers in there, I wouldn't come asking here.

[[[ Ans. The points I pasted are from books in my own Library to show you that Babel type rule is very much still here for you to see it results and to see which you prefer to live under.]]]

Just a few more thoughts to talk about.

Come back with any questions you have, this is the major theme of the Bible Jehovah's Sovereignty!
Barryrob

Sparko

October 6th 2004, 11:35 AM

Barryrob, please don't post huge chunks or complete articles from other places. Instead, use only short relevant quotes from other places, interspersed with your own commentary to explain why you think the quotes are relevant to the discussion.

Also learn to use the quote tags.
To use the quote tags, type in front of the text you want to quote from someone, and then type at the end of the text.

For example:

This is quoted text looks like this, after you submit the post:

This is quoted text The editor has some button icons at the top that will allow you to automatically wrap the quote tags around text you have highlighted with your mouse. Just look for the little white oval shape with a ! in it at the top of the editor box. If you move your mouse over the various buttons in the Editor and leave it there for a second, it will bring up a little tooltip telling you what the button is for

barryrob

October 6th 2004, 12:25 PM

barryrob

October 7th 2004, 06:49 PM

The law of avrages say that some time in the near future I will get it right.
Sorry John