Untying the knots of false teachings...

[k4cym]

Blessings to you all,

I pray you take your time in reading this study. It's very important to grasp what is being taught here because it will clear up a lot of false doctrines as well as the confusion we have when we read our bibles.

One of the dangers of receiving a false doctrine such as the trinity is all the baggage that comes along with it.

When a false doctrine is taught you will find a string of false doctrines following in order to build a foundation that justifies the false doctrine. It's in these strings that cause the confusion that make it hard to grasp the truth of God's word. For example John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Right away we begin to believe that this word (Word) spoken of in John is Jesus. Why is this taught and believed?

Because in order to push the co-eternal attribute of the trinity doctrine Jesus would have to preexist.

The preexistence of Jesus or better yet the immortality of souls comes from Greek philosophy and is not taught in scripture. We have been taught to believe this in order to justify the co-eternal trinity doctrine.

Are we immortal? Lets turn to the scriptures to get our answer.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, who has immortality?

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So you see, it's only the Father who has immortality, no one else. We as abiding believers will get immortality at the coming of Jesus Christ.

Romans 2:7-8 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

1 Cor.15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death is not the second life.

Lets go back to the preexistence of Christ.

When you read the in the book of John you will find words such as (he) and (Word). These words are used by the translators in such a way as to promote the trinity doctrine. When the translators use a capital (W) in word (logos) it was done to promote the trinity doctrine and the preexistence of Jesus.

As you read your bible you will find the same word (logos) in the other areas of the bible where the capital (W) was not used. You will also find in John the word (he) as a personification of the word (logos). This also is a theological decision based on a preconceived trinity theology.

So what does the word in John describe?

The word in John is describing God's word, His thoughts, His wisdom, in other words His will.

In the beginning was the word, will, plan of God. This plan, will, word was with God and was God, it's His thoughts.

God's mind, plans or wisdom is revealed through His words. Our thoughts reveal who we are in the same way God's thoughts/words reveals who He is, (Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart...)

In the beginning was God's word, His will, His plans as expressed in creation.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Psalms 148:1-5 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the Lord: for He commanded, and they were created.

Jesus was God's word made alive because Jesus obeyed His Father's words, Jesus lived out His Father's plans, they are one in will and purpose like we can be one with them in will and purpose. John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

Jesus and His Father's word are two different things but they became one through the obedience of Jesus. Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesus' will and God's word or plan are two different things but they had to be in agreement in order to fulfill God's salvation plan.

Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Everything we see in creation was first in God's mind as part of His plan.

In the Hebrew thought process you will not find preexistence as taught in the trinity doctrine. What you will find in Hebrew thought is God's plan contained in His mind. Everything we read regarding creation, salvation, redemption and even Jesus was first in God's mind until He brought it to reality or made it literal.

The following are verses will help you understand this concept of Hebrew thought that is found throughout scripture.

Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Was Jesus slain before the world was or was He slain 2000 years ago? Jesus was slain before the world was as being in the mind of God as part of His salvation plan.

Did God speak to us through His Son in the Old Testament? No, He did not, He spoke to us through prophets.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Lets look at the genealogy of Jesus to see if He existed in the Old Testament. God has taken some time here to list this out for us so we would not be deceived by Greek mythology and philosophy.

Matthew 1:1-16 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

You see in the genealogy of Jesus that He didn't preexsist literally in the Old Testement but rather He is only a seed in the same way you and I are in seed form prior to our birth. This is called the family tree.

Trinitarians who believe Jesus preexisted will use verses such as the following to prove the preexistence of Jesus.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Trinitarians say because Jesus was sent from God it shows that He preexisted in heaven prior to coming to earth. To be sent from God or by God only means you were given a mission by God according to His will and eternal purpose. It does not mean you literally came from heaven.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

John the Baptist was sent from God, we don't teach that he came from heaven first.

2 Kings 1:14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight.

Is there fire in heaven?

Psalms 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.

Are there flies and frogs in heaven?

John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

There must be a lot of bushel baskets of bread in heaven.

When we read of things or people who have been sent by God or came out from God or came from heaven, it just means that it was given by God.

If President Bush, who is in Washington, sends troops from Fort Hood Texas to Iraq it doesn't mean that the troops literally came from Washington. They were sent from the authority and will of President Bush who is in Washington.

God had a salvation plan from the beginning which is a mystery to His creation. He slowly over time reveals His plan to us. This is where you get all the words such as, foreknew, foreknowledge, from the foundation of the world, eternal purpose and so on.

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

There is so much more to cover and I'm sure you will find more as you continue in your studies.

Many blessings,
John

[dizzle]

Who did God love before He created Jesus?

[k4cym]

Who did God love before He created Jesus?

God is love...

[dizzle]

That didn't answer the question. Love is a quality that requires an object to be expressed. If God IS love, meaning that He is essentially love, that is impossible without an object OR that means there was an unfulfilled need in God.

I think you need to do a little deeper thinking about this.

[k4cym]

That didn't answer the question. Love is a quality that requires an object to be expressed. If God IS love, meaning that He is essentially love, that is impossible without an object OR that means there was an unfulfilled need in God.

I think you need to do a little deeper thinking about this.

Who says love requires an object to be love? Love is God's character. Love desires an object to love. God is love and the expression of God's love is seen in His creation. Even while we were yet sinners God loved us.

Many blessings,
John

[dizzle]

Love desires an object to love? Before creation of Jesus did God have unfulfilled desires? Love is not complete without an object.

Again, think a bit more deeply John.

[k4cym]

Love desires an object to love? Before creation of Jesus did God have unfulfilled desires? Love is not complete without an object.

Again, think a bit more deeply John.

Jesus was not created, He was born.

Does God desire mercy? Does God desire that we worship Him in spirit and in truth?

You are trying to build an argument on sand.

Many blessings,
John

[Trout]

Jesus was not created, He was born.


Jesus wasn't created, He always existed.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:


Notice, a "son" wasn't born unto us, a child was born. He always existed.

[dizzle]

Jesus was not created, He was born.

It wouldn't matter for my argument either way.



Does God desire mercy? Does God desire that we worship Him in spirit and in truth?

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

You are trying to build an argument on sand.

How do you know since you have yet to address it?

Please answer the questions instead of dodging.

[k4cym]

It wouldn't matter for my argument either way.



What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?



How do you know since you have yet to address it?

Please answer the questions instead of dodging.

Your question is, "Does God have a desire?" The bible is very clear, God does have desires. He desires that all should be saved.

Love has two forms. One is an emotional desire that needs to be met in order to be complete and and the other is a character trait as seen in, love is kind, love is long suffering and so on. These are not emotions they are character traits. If you study the character of God you will find these attributes.

Many blessings,
John

[k4cym]

Jesus wasn't created, He always existed.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:


Notice, a "son" wasn't born unto us, a child was born. He always existed.


A child is not a mystical thing, a child is a baby who has a father and a mother. If it's a girl then you have a daughter. If it's a boy you have a son.

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

Jesus was not created
Many blessings,
John
Sorry that is not in harmony with the holy Bible as it say the following about Jesus:-

Revelation 3:14 These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God


Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

Barryrob

[k4cym]

Sorry that is not in harmony with the holy Bible as it say the following about Jesus:-

Revelation 3:14 These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God


Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

Why is that people think Jesus is a she, Jesus is the Son of God? Proverbs 8:22 is speaking of God's wisdom and wisdom is referred to as (she) in the context of these verses.

Proverbs 8:1-3 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice? She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet. She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:

I believe God purposely did this so we won't think He was referring to Jesus.

If you insist that wisdom in Proverbs chapter 8 is referring to Jesus then prudence must be Jesus' sister.

Proverbs 8:12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge and discretion.

Firstborn and beginning of creation?

Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Jesus is the beginning of God's new creation, the world to come, not the one we live in now.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

In the Jewish community the firstborn would inherit all that belonged to the father. Sometimes the firstborn wouldn't be the biological firstborn due to a wrongful act done by the biological firstborn. When God calls His Son the firstborn of all creation He is not speaking biologically but rather He is speaking legally. Jesus became the firstborn through His faithful obedience so that He can receive the inheritance which is the coming kingdom. Where Adam failed, Jesus didn't.

Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.

Hebrews 1:4-9 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jesus is the legal firstborn of all creation so that He can inherit the coming kingdom also known as the world to come for which these verses are speaking of.

Hebrews 2:5 It was not under angels that he put the world to come, about which we are speaking.

Many blessings,
John

[sharvey]

Phew!!!, The OP was massive!!!
I have just gone through it bit by bit, I have missed bits out, purely because because of size, time and knowledge constraints.

Right away we begin to believe that this word (Word) spoken of in John is Jesus. Why is this taught and believed? Because in order to push the co-eternal attribute of the trinity doctrine Jesus would have to preexist.

It would have been nice if you could have quoted the entire section of John 1, pointing out the progression of Jesus + Father before the world was created and through whom the word was created. Then his arrival at planet earth, " He was in the world, and (14) the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.", so here we have Jesus before, during and after The creation of the universe.

The preexistence of Jesus or better yet the immortality of souls comes from Greek philosophy and is not taught in scripture. We have been taught to believe this in order to justify the co-eternal trinity doctrine.

The greeks may have believed the immortality of the souls but it is hard to believe that first centurary Jews would even consider adopting it from gentiles considering they had the holy words of the one true God. Secondly, you have it from Jesus mouth that he is the 'I AM' (John 8:57-59) as mentoned in Deut 3. Which is a strong claim of Jesus own diety FROM HIS OWN LIPS. And since he was claiming that he was (part of) the alpha & the omega it is a safe bet to make that he was preexistant since the God of the universe is also preexistant.

Also in Deut 6:5 the word "Soul" is better understood "as every fibre of your being" which is what I am going to define it here (it is less abstract than the word "soul"). Since people are God's created beings it is God who gives them life and God who substains them so 'Souls' is just as created as a human/animal body since God created that as well. Both were created and, If failing Gods judgement, both will be distroyed, " 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Are we immortal? Lets turn to the scriptures to get our answer.
I had one response for this:
1. Human immortality is dependant on that partiticular persons response to Christ (with grey areas for fringe cases), but generally the starting off point is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That is people arn't immortal but it takes an extra force/whatever in order to substain them.
But then (after previewing it) I came to the conclusion:
2. Do you really need scripture to figure this one out ??? !!! :lol:

So, who has immortality?

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So you see, it's only the Father who has immortality, no one else. We as abiding believers will get immortality at the coming of Jesus Christ.

The assumption that God == Father is a bad one, since we also have the Holy Spirit and JC. That is, it has yet to be discovered if the Holy spirit is mortal and that Jesus didnt have his immortality restored to him after he acended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God.

[there was some verses in here that I have left out since they seemed to serve as more of a distraction than to contribute or correct anything]

... The second death is not the second life.

Lets go back to the preexistence of Christ.

When you read the in the book of John you will find words such as (he) and (Word). These words are used by the translators in such a way as to promote the trinity doctrine. When the translators use a capital (W) in word (logos) it was done to promote the trinity doctrine and the preexistence of Jesus.

As you read your bible you will find the same word (logos) in the other areas of the bible where the capital (W) was not used. You will also find in John the word (he) as a personification of the word (logos). This also is a theological decision based on a preconceived trinity theology.

This guy makes it sound like every non JW translation was done by a bunch of bishops in the back room with an elementary understanding of greek translating the NT according to their own beliefs.

In reality the scholars that translate the NT come from a variety of backgrounds, are compedent in their field(s) and (depending on what their objective is) strive to make the most accurate translations possible.

The OP may have weak parallels with the NIV :blush: however mainstream christianity has a number of translations to draw off and no "official" translation, yep folks people are allowed to even read it in greek themselves!!!

So what does the 'word' in John describe?

The word in John is describing God's word, His thoughts, His wisdom, in other words His will... In the beginning was the word, will, plan of God. This plan, will, word was with God and was God, it's His thoughts. God's mind, plans or wisdom is revealed through His words. Our thoughts reveal who we are in the same way God's thoughts/words reveals who He is, In the beginning was God's word, His will, His plans as expressed in creation.

Alought the John goes into great detail about word usage he shows less consideration of the context of the passage, that is what is the object of each clause is and the evolution of that object as the passage progresses.
[See my first entry of this post]

John makes tha claim that whenever the translaters spelt 'Word' that they were doing this to bolster their trinity doctorine, since the greek word for 'word' elsewhere is spelt with a lowercase 'w'. however John does not comment about what context the greek words were used in and also the various titles for Jesus.

Jesus and His Father's word are two different things but they became one through the obedience of Jesus. Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

When dealing with Jesus words, i.e. his teachings we have this: "26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but (38) He who sent Me is true; and (39) the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." - John 8:26.

So Jesus teachings (words) are just what he picked up from his heavenly father.

Lets look at the genealogy of Jesus to see if He existed in the Old Testament.

Matthew 1:1-16 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

You see in the genealogy of Jesus that He didn't preexist (?) literally in the Old Testament but rather He is only a seed in the same way you and I are in seed form prior to our birth. This is called the family tree.

It is ironic here that he quotes it out of Matthew which is the gospel that also gives the story of how Jesus was conceived. Jesus wasnt just a decendant of David (required by scripture) but was also conceived by the Holy Spirit, making Jesus literally the SON of God since God was his biological and spiritual father. So although it is true that the geanalogy describes his family tree it only describes half of it. He also misses the fact that there is some of an idea about what Jesus it like from the OT (Ill will leave this as an exercise to the reader !!! :teeth:) however because the word "yesuha" never comes up in the OT he thinks that Jesus-messiah wasn't at all predicted by it.

Trinitarians who believe Jesus preexisted will use verses such as the following to prove the preexistence of Jesus.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

[i]Trinitarians say because Jesus was sent from God it shows that He preexisted in heaven prior to coming to earth. To be sent from God or by God only means you were given a mission by God according to His will and eternal purpose. It does not mean you literally came from heaven.

Being 'Sent' depend on the person and circumstances sourrounding their mission. It can mean that they literally came out of heaven if they literally came out of heaven. The usage of 'Being sent' is highly dependant on the context, it is unwise to use a blanket definition here.

For example, Gabriel appearing to Zechariah regarding the birth of John the Baptist, "9The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time." - Luke 1:19-20

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John the Baptist was sent from God, we don't teach that he came from heaven first.

John the Baptist never claimed to be God, or to have come from heaven "(16) No one has ascended into heaven, but (17) He who descended from heaven: (18) the Son of Man. " - John 3:13 so when we interperte JtB's coming from somewhere we can treat it as the same as one of the OT prophets. However when you do have somebody claiming to have come from heaven, then you have to interperate the language that they use to express their origins more carefully.

2 Kings 1:14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight.
Is there fire in heaven?
Psalms 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
Are there flies and frogs in heaven?
John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
There must be a lot of bushel baskets of bread in heaven.
When we read of things or people who have been sent by God or came out from God or came from heaven, it just means that it was given by God.

Each one of these passages has their own contexts, requiring study into the usage of the word 'heaven' and also the ancient hebrew's views of the afterlife. It is unwise to lump these all together.

Accordingly to jewish notions there were/are 3 heavens:
1. The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven" (Gen. 2:19; 7:3, 23; Ps. 8:8, etc.), "the eagles of heaven" (Lam. 4:19), etc.
2. The starry heavens (Deut. 17:3; Jer. 8:2; Matt. 24:29).
3. "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven" (Deut. 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Ps. 115:16; 148:4; 2 Cor. 12:2).
[Easterns Bible Dictionary]

So the OPer's simplification is wrong and misleading.

When quoting John in order to make things clearer I have added quotation marks '' "" as well as edited bits out that didnt contribute anything to the discussion. Since the OP is easily obtained it should not be that much of a problem going back to his origional text.

All scripture quotations from the NASB

Kind Regards
Simon

[k4cym]

Phew!!!, The OP was massive!!!
I have just gone through it bit by bit, I have missed bits out, purely because because of size, time and knowledge constraints.

Right away we begin to believe that this word (Word) spoken of in John is Jesus. Why is this taught and believed? Because in order to push the co-eternal attribute of the trinity doctrine Jesus would have to preexist.

It would have been nice if you could have quoted the entire section of John 1, pointing out the progression of Jesus + Father before the world was created and through whom the word was created. Then his arrival at planet earth, " He was in the world, and (14) the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.", so here we have Jesus before, during and after The creation of the universe.

The preexistence of Jesus or better yet the immortality of souls comes from Greek philosophy and is not taught in scripture. We have been taught to believe this in order to justify the co-eternal trinity doctrine.

The greeks may have believed the immortality of the souls but it is hard to believe that first centurary Jews would even consider adopting it from gentiles considering they had the holy words of the one true God. Secondly, you have it from Jesus mouth that he is the 'I AM' (John 8:57-59) as mentoned in Deut 3. Which is a strong claim of Jesus own diety FROM HIS OWN LIPS. And since he was claiming that he was (part of) the alpha & the omega it is a safe bet to make that he was preexistant since the God of the universe is also preexistant.

Also in Deut 6:5 the word "Soul" is better understood "as every fibre of your being" which is what I am going to define it here (it is less abstract than the word "soul"). Since people are God's created beings it is God who gives them life and God who substains them so 'Souls' is just as created as a human/animal body since God created that as well. Both were created and, If failing Gods judgement, both will be distroyed, " 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Are we immortal? Lets turn to the scriptures to get our answer.
I had one response for this:
1. Human immortality is dependant on that partiticular persons response to Christ (with grey areas for fringe cases), but generally the starting off point is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That is people arn't immortal but it takes an extra force/whatever in order to substain them.
But then (after previewing it) I came to the conclusion:
2. Do you really need scripture to figure this one out ??? !!! :lol:

So, who has immortality?

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So you see, it's only the Father who has immortality, no one else. We as abiding believers will get immortality at the coming of Jesus Christ.

The assumption that God == Father is a bad one, since we also have the Holy Spirit and JC. That is, it has yet to be discovered if the Holy spirit is mortal and that Jesus didnt have his immortality restored to him after he acended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God.

[there was some verses in here that I have left out since they seemed to serve as more of a distraction than to contribute or correct anything]

... The second death is not the second life.

Lets go back to the preexistence of Christ.

When you read the in the book of John you will find words such as (he) and (Word). These words are used by the translators in such a way as to promote the trinity doctrine. When the translators use a capital (W) in word (logos) it was done to promote the trinity doctrine and the preexistence of Jesus.

As you read your bible you will find the same word (logos) in the other areas of the bible where the capital (W) was not used. You will also find in John the word (he) as a personification of the word (logos). This also is a theological decision based on a preconceived trinity theology.

This guy makes it sound like every non JW translation was done by a bunch of bishops in the back room with an elementary understanding of greek translating the NT according to their own beliefs.

In reality the scholars that translate the NT come from a variety of backgrounds, are compedent in their field(s) and (depending on what their objective is) strive to make the most accurate translations possible.

The OP may have weak parallels with the NIV :blush: however mainstream christianity has a number of translations to draw off and no "official" translation, yep folks people are allowed to even read it in greek themselves!!!

So what does the 'word' in John describe?

The word in John is describing God's word, His thoughts, His wisdom, in other words His will... In the beginning was the word, will, plan of God. This plan, will, word was with God and was God, it's His thoughts. God's mind, plans or wisdom is revealed through His words. Our thoughts reveal who we are in the same way God's thoughts/words reveals who He is, In the beginning was God's word, His will, His plans as expressed in creation.

Alought the John goes into great detail about word usage he shows less consideration of the context of the passage, that is what is the object of each clause is and the evolution of that object as the passage progresses.
[See my first entry of this post]

John makes tha claim that whenever the translaters spelt 'Word' that they were doing this to bolster their trinity doctorine, since the greek word for 'word' elsewhere is spelt with a lowercase 'w'. however John does not comment about what context the greek words were used in and also the various titles for Jesus.

Jesus and His Father's word are two different things but they became one through the obedience of Jesus. Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

When dealing with Jesus words, i.e. his teachings we have this: "26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but (38) He who sent Me is true; and (39) the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." - John 8:26.

So Jesus teachings (words) are just what he picked up from his heavenly father.

Lets look at the genealogy of Jesus to see if He existed in the Old Testament.

Matthew 1:1-16 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

You see in the genealogy of Jesus that He didn't preexist (?) literally in the Old Testament but rather He is only a seed in the same way you and I are in seed form prior to our birth. This is called the family tree.

It is ironic here that he quotes it out of Matthew which is the gospel that also gives the story of how Jesus was conceived. Jesus wasnt just a decendant of David (required by scripture) but was also conceived by the Holy Spirit, making Jesus literally the SON of God since God was his biological and spiritual father. So although it is true that the geanalogy describes his family tree it only describes half of it. He also misses the fact that there is some of an idea about what Jesus it like from the OT (Ill will leave this as an exercise to the reader !!! :teeth:) however because the word "yesuha" never comes up in the OT he thinks that Jesus-messiah wasn't at all predicted by it.

Trinitarians who believe Jesus preexisted will use verses such as the following to prove the preexistence of Jesus.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

[i]Trinitarians say because Jesus was sent from God it shows that He preexisted in heaven prior to coming to earth. To be sent from God or by God only means you were given a mission by God according to His will and eternal purpose. It does not mean you literally came from heaven.

Being 'Sent' depend on the person and circumstances sourrounding their mission. It can mean that they literally came out of heaven if they literally came out of heaven. The usage of 'Being sent' is highly dependant on the context, it is unwise to use a blanket definition here.

For example, Gabriel appearing to Zechariah regarding the birth of John the Baptist, "9The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time." - Luke 1:19-20

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John the Baptist was sent from God, we don't teach that he came from heaven first.

John the Baptist never claimed to be God, or to have come from heaven "(16) No one has ascended into heaven, but (17) He who descended from heaven: (18) the Son of Man. " - John 3:13 so when we interperte JtB's coming from somewhere we can treat it as the same as one of the OT prophets. However when you do have somebody claiming to have come from heaven, then you have to interperate the language that they use to express their origins more carefully.

2 Kings 1:14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight.
Is there fire in heaven?
Psalms 78:45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.
Are there flies and frogs in heaven?
John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
There must be a lot of bushel baskets of bread in heaven.
When we read of things or people who have been sent by God or came out from God or came from heaven, it just means that it was given by God.

Each one of these passages has their own contexts, requiring study into the usage of the word 'heaven' and also the ancient hebrew's views of the afterlife. It is unwise to lump these all together.

Accordingly to jewish notions there were/are 3 heavens:
1. The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven" (Gen. 2:19; 7:3, 23; Ps. 8:8, etc.), "the eagles of heaven" (Lam. 4:19), etc.
2. The starry heavens (Deut. 17:3; Jer. 8:2; Matt. 24:29).
3. "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven" (Deut. 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Ps. 115:16; 148:4; 2 Cor. 12:2).
[Easterns Bible Dictionary]

So the OPer's simplification is wrong and misleading.

When quoting John in order to make things clearer I have added quotation marks '' "" as well as edited bits out that didnt contribute anything to the discussion. Since the OP is easily obtained it should not be that much of a problem going back to his origional text.

All scripture quotations from the NASB

Kind Regards
Simon

Hi Simon,

Excellent reply...

I can't believe what just happened. It took me an hour to look things up so I could responded to your reply and my computer froze as I sent it. I'm going to try again but a little shorter this time. I'm not sure how to use the (quote) tool so I hope it's not too confusing.

The word in the John 1 is God's thoughts, will, purpose. God is spirit so when we speak of God's thoughts we speak of God. God's word is true, it's light. God came to His own in days of old but they did not receive Him. Everyone born into the world has some understanding that there is a God, John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world. So we are all without excuse, Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

God created all things seen and unseen, John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him (God), and the world knew him not.

Now in John1:14 we have God's will being brought to light through Jesus, John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus was born of God by the will of God in the same way everyone can be, John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jeremiah 7:22-23 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

As far as Jesus preexisting, He only preexisted in the God's mind as part of His eternal plan, Ephesians 1:9-11 God has told us his secret reason for sending Christ, a plan he decided on in mercy long ago; and this was his purpose: that when the time is ripe he will gather us all together from wherever we are--in heaven or on earth--to be with him in Christ, forever. Moreover, because of what Christ has done we have become gifts to God that he delights in, for as part of God's sovereign plan we were chosen from the beginning to be his, and all things happen just as he decided long ago.


Immortality?

There is only one who has immortality, God, 1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

The difference now is that Jesus has immortality and within Him is eternal life. We get eternal life now by being grafted into Christ through obedience, 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We get eternal life when we are abiding in Christ through obeying His words. John 10:27-28 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 15:6-7 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

No man has ascended into heaven?

John 3:12-13 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If you look at these verses you will find that Jesus was referring to his thoughts in dealing with earthly things vs heavenly things. Jesus was telling these people where His thoughts were coming from. Jesus ascended in the heavens in His thoughts even though He was physically on the earth, Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus was born from a woman, He didn't come from heaven. Jesus came down from heaven in the fact that He was doing His Father's will who is in heaven. He came out from God's eternal plan, John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jesus was born a man who was anointed of God. He understood the deeper things of His Father words because He was given the Spirit without measure, John 3:34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

Jesus had to grow in wisdom, Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Jesus had to learn obedience, Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.

The I Am?

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'' Jesus only preexisted in God's eternal plan to bringforth a Son who deliver us from sin. All throughout the OT we find prophecies referring to Jesus' day. Before Abraham was, Jesus' day was already planned. John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.'' Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith this is what gave Abraham the hope that made him glad.

Jesus was a man anointed of God to be a meditator between God and man, 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

God's will come down from heaven and was lived out through the obedience of Jesus so that Jesus could bring salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus obeyed His Father's will even unto death, why? So He could wash us with words, Eph. 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

My God did not die on the cross, His Son did as an expression of God's love for us. Jesus did it for the hope and the joy that was set before Him in that He would have a special place with God, Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I'll stop here for now...

Many blessing to you in Christ,
John

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

Why is that people think Jesus is a she, Jesus is the Son of God? Proverbs 8:22 is speaking of God's wisdom and wisdom is referred to as (she) in the context of these verses.

Proverbs 8:1-3 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice? She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet. She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:

I believe God purposely did this so we won't think He was referring to Jesus.

If you insist that wisdom in Proverbs chapter 8 is referring to Jesus then prudence must be Jesus' sister.

Proverbs 8:12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge and discretion.

Firstborn and beginning of creation?

Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Jesus is the beginning of God's new creation, the world to come, not the one we live in now.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

In the Jewish community the firstborn would inherit all that belonged to the father. Sometimes the firstborn wouldn't be the biological firstborn due to a wrongful act done by the biological firstborn. When God calls His Son the firstborn of all creation He is not speaking biologically but rather He is speaking legally. Jesus became the firstborn through His faithful obedience so that He can receive the inheritance which is the coming kingdom. Where Adam failed, Jesus didn't.

Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.

Hebrews 1:4-9 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jesus is the legal firstborn of all creation so that He can inherit the coming kingdom also known as the world to come for which these verses are speaking of.

Hebrews 2:5 It was not under angels that he put the world to come, about which we are speaking.

Many blessings,
JohnJesus preexistance:-

John 1:14 So the Word (Jesus) became flesh*
*If he "became fleash" what was he before?

Philippians 2:7 No, but he (Jesus) emptied himself* and took a slave’s form and came** to be in the likeness of men***.
*Of what?
**From where did he come?
***So what likness was he before?

1 Timothy 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest* in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.
*So where was he unmanifested?

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the "young children" are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook* of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil
*So if he partook of human form, what was he before?



Just something to think on?
Barryrob

[k4cym]

Jesus preexistance:-

John 1:14 So the Word (Jesus) became flesh*
*If he "became fleash" what was he before?

Philippians 2:7 No, but he (Jesus) emptied himself* and took a slave’s form and came** to be in the likeness of men***.
*Of what?
**From where did he come?
***So what likness was he before?

1 Timothy 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest* in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.
*So where was he unmanifested?

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the "young children" are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook* of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil
*So if he partook of human form, what was he before?



Just something to think on?
Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

Jesus didn't come from somewhere else other than His mother's womb. It's God's word that was lived out in Jesus' life it's another way of saying the word became flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself...

This only could be accoplished if Jesus remained obedient.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
-----------------------------------------------------------
Philippians 2:6-7 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He had the power to call thousands of angels to His aid but He didn't.

Matthew 26:53 Don't you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?

Jesus was given His Father Spirit without measure but He still obediently suffered for His Father's will.

John 3:34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

Jesus is the Son of God but He didn't act as such but rather He humbled Himself as a servant.
----------------------------------------------------
God was manifested in the flesh/life of Jesus only because Jesus was obedient to His Father's will in revealing the Father to us.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 10:7 Then I said, `Behold, I have come in the volume of the book it is written of Me to do Your will, O God.' ''

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

God was manifested in Jesus life through Jesus' obedience to His Father's will.

-------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus was a natural man just like us. God used a man so that He could accomplish what needed to be done through sinless man's death. In other words, God didn't use an angle because He is not helping the angles He is saving mankind.

Hebrews 2:16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

Acts 10:38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

Jesus didn't come from somewhere else other than His mother's womb. It's God's word that was lived out in Jesus' life it's another way of saying the word became flesh.John
Not according to jesus own words:-


John 6:41-42 Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: "I am the bread that came down from heaven"; 42 and they began saying: "Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?"

John 6:48-51 "I am the bread of life. 49 YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."









Barryrob

[dizzle]

Your question is, "Does God have a desire?" The bible is very clear, God does have desires. He desires that all should be saved.

No that was not my question. Unfortunately other issues right now are prohibiting me from developing this further - love is incomplete without an object. Any theology that posits God as a solitary Monad posits a God completely different from the God as portrayed in Scripture.

Greg Boyd deals with the philosophy of a undifferentiated solitary eternal God and the difference that would make to revelation. If God is essen tially love, who did He love before creation? Did He need creation to have something to love? Is God essentially personal? How could he be essentially personal if His only fellowship prior to creation was with nothing? Is he only "revealing" Himself as intensely personal for our sakes? God is concealed yet again. Then the attributes of God revealed in Scripture are more about His "doing" rather than His "being." He is essentially a God of solitude... and we are created in His image. What does that say about us?

God can have no unmet needs. He must be completely self-sufficient and complete. However, personal beings require personal interaction and community or there is an unfufilled need. Love requires and object. Now if God is an undifferentiated one (as in oneness theology) there is a problem.

One, He really is not essentially personal or love (which is in conflict with the Bible)

Or... He needed creation to have something to love and to interact with.

Neither alternative is acceptable. The Trinity solves this dilemna. There is an interpersonal loving relationship between the members of the Trinity.

This is an intractable problem for any form of Unitarian Arian or Sabellian.

[k4cym]

Not according to jesus own words:-


John 6:41-42 Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: "I am the bread that came down from heaven"; 42 and they began saying: "Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?"

John 6:48-51 "I am the bread of life. 49 YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."



Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

The Jews missed what Jesus was saying from the start. They thought Jesus was claiming to be God but Jesus never said He was God, the Jews assumed that's what Jesus was saying and crucified Him for it.

Jesus is the bread of life that has come down from heaven because He was receiving from His Father who is in heaven not that Jesus Himself came down from heaven in the same way the manna in the OT didn't literally come down from heaven.

John 7:18-19 "If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

The words that Jesus spoke were His Father's words. Jesus words are the bread of life more yet the way He lived His life for our example is even more clear as to what the Father expects of us.

John 6:48-56 "I am the bread of life. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.'' The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?'' Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

When Jesus says to eat and drink my flesh and blood what He is saying is not to just hear His words and not have anything else to do with them but rather He is saying make His way of living our way of living in other words let Him live in and through us.

Many blessings,
John

[k4cym]

No that was not my question. Unfortunately other issues right now are prohibiting me from developing this further - love is incomplete without an object. Any theology that posits God as a solitary Monad posits a God completely different from the God as portrayed in Scripture.

Greg Boyd deals with the philosophy of a undifferentiated solitary eternal God and the difference that would make to revelation. If God is essen tially love, who did He love before creation? Did He need creation to have something to love? Is God essentially personal? How could he be essentially personal if His only fellowship prior to creation was with nothing? Is he only "revealing" Himself as intensely personal for our sakes? God is concealed yet again. Then the attributes of God revealed in Scripture are more about His "doing" rather than His "being." He is essentially a God of solitude... and we are created in His image. What does that say about us?

God can have no unmet needs. He must be completely self-sufficient and complete. However, personal beings require personal interaction and community or there is an unfufilled need. Love requires and object. Now if God is an undifferentiated one (as in oneness theology) there is a problem.

One, He really is not essentially personal or love (which is in conflict with the Bible)

Or... He needed creation to have something to love and to interact with.

Neither alternative is acceptable. The Trinity solves this dilemna. There is an interpersonal loving relationship between the members of the Trinity.

This is an intractable problem for any form of Unitarian Arian or Sabellian.


Hi Dee Dee,

So what you are saying is that Jesus (the word) is separate from His Father so that the Father can have someone to love? This would make the Father a no mind, no word God apart from His Son? Or are you saying that Jesus (the word) is the Father making the Father a self loving God?

God chose to create us for whatever reason He wanted in the same way He chose to create angels. I just thank God He did choose to create life because life is such a blessing.

Many blessings,
John

[dizzle]

Hi Dee Dee,

So what you are saying is that Jesus (the word) is separate from His Father so that the Father can have someone to love? This would make the Father a no mind, no word God apart from His Son? Or are you saying that Jesus (the word) is the Father making the Father a self loving God?

You do realize that Word is a title right? And since the Trinity is eternal there is not time that the Word did not exist as John the Apostle has taught as well. Without an object of love God cannot be essentially love but only contingentally love, and that is not the God of the Bible. You really need to do some dealing with that.

[NonTrinitarian]

That didn't answer the question. Love is a quality that requires an object to be expressed. If God IS love, meaning that He is essentially love, that is impossible without an object OR that means there was an unfulfilled need in God.

I think you need to do a little deeper thinking about this I’ve heard this argument several times and it is totally philosophical and opinionated. Firstly, there are no verses that say what Dee Dee just said. It is totally her opinion (whom she probably borrowed from someone else) that “If God IS love, meaning that He is essentially love, that is impossible without an object OR that means there was an unfulfilled need in God.”

Where is the scriptures does it ever say it impossible to have love without someone else? There are no verses. This argument is the result of some Trinitarian philosophist who has unfortunately influenced Dee Dee with his ideas, not God’s. Here is God’s idea of love and whether he needed to always have someone with him to have love.


(Leviticus 19:18) 18 “‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.

(Leviticus 19:34) . . .The alien resident who resides as an alien with YOU should become to YOU like a native of YOURS; and you must love him as yourself,. . .

(Matthew 19:18-20) . . .Jesus said: “Why, You must not murder, You must not commit adultery, You must not steal, You must not bear false witness, 19 Honor [your] father and [your] mother, and, You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20. . .

(Matthew 22:39-40) . . .The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

(Mark 12:31) . . .The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these. . .

(Luke 10:27) . . .In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind,’ and, ‘your neighbor as yourself.’. . .

(Romans 13:9) . . .and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”

(Galatians 5:14) 14 For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”. . .

(James 2:8) . . .If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: “You must love your neighbor as yourself,” YOU are doing quite well. . .

This isn’t my opinion, it’s God’s. The 2nd greatest commandment is to love others as we love OURSELVES. In fact, the entire law stood on this principle. If it’s impossible to love without having someone else to love then nothing is possible. God has great love for himself and rightly so. We can love ourselves (it’s where it all starts) and God rightly loves himself (which is where everything starts)


The first thing I've learned to do when someone makes an argument is ask the question "What verse is that?" Doing so here ends the argument pretty quickly as their is no authority but opinion to support it while there are numerous verses that say we can love ourselves.

[dizzle]

What verse is that that says you must have a verse for everything?

[NonTrinitarian]

What verse is that that says you must have a verse for everything?
Good question. I didn't mean it totally like that. What I meant is that if someone is going to make a pretty big argument (like a trinty), the first question I ask is where is it stated. If it's not stated anywhere, I know we're just dealing with an opinion. Then the next question is are there any verses that trump the opinion. Which is what we have in this situation.

So we have
1.) No verses that say it's impossible to love without someone else around
and
2.) Numerous verses that speak of us loving ourselves.

It's an easy choice for me as to whom I will believe.

[dizzle]

Good question.

Thank you for your forthrightness is conceding that.


I didn't mean it totally like that. What I meant is that if someone is going to make a pretty big argument (like a trinty), the first question I ask is where is it stated. If it's not stated anywhere, I know we're just dealing with an opinion. Then the next question is are there any verses that trump the opinion. Which is what we have in this situation.


So we have
1.) No verses that say it's impossible to love without someone else around
and

It is not necessary to have that. We also don't have any verses that say human being means an organism with a certian genetic markup. It is in inherent in what love is.


2.) Numerous verses that speak of us loving ourselves.

No one said that one could not love themselves. That is a strawman. But is that a legitimate outlet to fulfil love? No. Love requires an object outside of oneself to be fulfilled that is why the verses exhort us to be fulfilled by loving something other than ourselves.

[k4cym]

Thank you for your forthrightness is conceding that.



It is not necessary to have that. We also don't have any verses that say human being means an organism with a certian genetic markup. It is in inherent in what love is.



No one said that one could not love themselves. That is a strawman. But is that a legitimate outlet to fulfil love? No. Love requires an object outside of oneself to be fulfilled that is why the verses exhort us to be fulfilled by loving something other than ourselves.

Hi Dee Dee,

I would like to make mention of the third person of the co-eternal trinity and that is God the Holy Spirit. How come no one loves Him and no one worships Him? He must have an unfulfilled desire within Himself.

Many blessings,
John

[dizzle]

You don't believe that the father and son love the spirit? I only focused on the son here since that was the focus of the OP.

[k4cym]

You don't believe that the father and son love the spirit? I only focused on the son here since that was the focus of the OP.

Hi Dee Dee,

Can you show me where God Father loves God the Holy Spirit and where God the Holy Spirit loves God the Father and God the Son? Can you show me where God the Holy Spirit is worshiped as God the Father and God the Son are worshiped? God the Father and God the Son must not love God the Holy Spirit very much because they left Him without a throne.

Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Many blessings,
John

[NonTrinitarian]

No one said that one could not love themselves. That is a strawman. But is that a legitimate outlet to fulfil love? No. Love requires an object outside of oneself to be fulfilled that is why the verses exhort us to be fulfilled by loving something other than ourselves.
Opinion, opinion and more opinion. The WHOLE LAW is fulfilled in loving somone else AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF. If I can love myself then God can love himself. All you have offered is a bunch of fluff with no substance.

It is no strawman. It is a total refute of your basic argument. One I am sure you never considered before your post. And it will definitely take more than your opinion to turn me back to a Trinitarian.

[dizzle]

And it is your opinoin it is opinion. You proved my point above - Love is not fulfilled without an object other than oneself. And never fear, I never considered it my job to turn you back to anything. Fortunately for me, I realzie that burden is God's. Without undue offense to you, though it is bound to be offensive it is not my intent to offend but to be bluntly truthful, my burden is to help innoculate the sheep against heresies such as yours. If you happen to be convicted in the process, that is icing on the cake.

[NonTrinitarian]

And it is your opinoin it is opinion. You proved my point above - Love is not fulfilled without an object other than oneself. And never fear, I never considered it my job to turn you back to anything. Fortunately for me, I realzie that burden is God's. Without undue offense to you, though it is bound to be offensive it is not my intent to offend but to be bluntly truthful, my burden is to help innoculate the sheep against heresies such as yours. If you happen to be convicted in the process, that is icing on the cake.
No offense taken, Dee Dee. You made the bold, unsupported charge that it is impossible to have love without someone else present. You didn't present any authoritative source to document this. You didn't provide any scriptures, etc. You just said it. Kind of like a 'Thus saith Dee Dee' thing.

On the other hand, I provided quite a few scriptures, even words from Jesus' mouth, that us mere humans can have love for ourselves. The obvious point being that if love can exist within ourselves then certainly love can exist within God, whose image we were created in.

If you have some "sheep" that take your word over Jesus' then they would be your sheep, not Jesus'. Your opinion hasn't "convicted" me in anyway. I stand with Jesus on this one.

[barryrob]

No offense taken, Dee Dee. You made the bold, unsupported charge that it is impossible to have love without someone else present. You didn't present any authoritative source to document this. You didn't provide any scriptures, etc. You just said it. Kind of like a 'Thus saith Dee Dee' thing.

On the other hand, I provided quite a few scriptures, even words from Jesus' mouth, that us mere humans can have love for ourselves. The obvious point being that if love can exist within ourselves then certainly love can exist within God, whose image we were created in.

If you have some "sheep" that take your word over Jesus' then they would be your sheep, not Jesus'. Your opinion hasn't "convicted" me in anyway. I stand with Jesus on this one.
To support NonTrin.



1 John 4:8 "God is love."





I only see ONE person mentioned here!




Barryrob

[dizzle]

No offense taken, Dee Dee. You made the bold, unsupported charge that it is impossible to have love without someone else present. You didn't present any authoritative source to document this. You didn't provide any scriptures, etc. You just said it. Kind of like a 'Thus saith Dee Dee' thing.

Well actually you are incorrect in that I showed that the Scriptures showed that self-love is not sufficient that one must love others. Further though you may dismiss philosophy - the Bible is not self-contained in that we are expected to be able to pour context into concepts. Love is a community act.



If you have some "sheep" that take your word over Jesus' then they would be your sheep, not Jesus'. Your opinion hasn't "convicted" me in anyway. I stand with Jesus on this one.

As I said I wasn't trying to. You can get all huffy, but my comment was in response to your comment that I wasn't about to turn you back into a Trin, as if well, if I am not about to do that, I implicitly might as well give up. I pointed out that I could never convince you of a thing and that would not perturb me. And I said the "sheep" as you are aware, so this little word game is aggressive huffing. I am reminded of when my parrot gets angry she puffs up all her feathers and glares. If you were offended it wasn't my intent. I assume that you are like me and prefer the hard truth rather to meaningless PC niceties.

[NonTrinitarian]

Well actually you are incorrect in that I showed that the Scriptures showed that self-love is not sufficient that one must love others. Further though you may dismiss philosophy - the Bible is not self-contained in that we are expected to be able to pour context into concepts. Love is a community act.




As I said I wasn't trying to. You can get all huffy, but my comment was in response to your comment that I wasn't about to turn you back into a Trin, as if well, if I am not about to do that, I implicitly might as well give up. I pointed out that I could never convince you of a thing and that would not perturb me. And I said the "sheep" as you are aware, so this little word game is aggressive huffing. I am reminded of when my parrot gets angry she puffs up all her feathers and glares. If you were offended it wasn't my intent. I assume that you are like me and prefer the hard truth rather to meaningless PC niceties.
Hard truth is what I like. Which is why the argument that God could not be Love without someone else around cannot be taken seriously. Self-love clearly shows it to be a false argument.

[dizzle]

Well you and I disagree on that obviously. As I said I wish I had time to develop this further but as you can see I am pretty busy in the Locker Room right now.

[NonTrinitarian]

Well you and I disagree on that obviously. As I said I wish I had time to develop this further but as you can see I am pretty busy in the Locker Room right now.
Hmm. I'll check out the Locker room. Sounds like something exciting is going on. I like it when you get tough with people (except with me!).

[k4cym]

You don't believe that the father and son love the spirit? I only focused on the son here since that was the focus of the OP.


Hi Dee Dee,

I think you forgot my question....

Can you show me where God Father loves God the Holy Spirit and where God the Holy Spirit loves God the Father and God the Son? Can you show me where God the Holy Spirit is worshiped as God the Father and God the Son are worshiped? God the Father and God the Son must not love God the Holy Spirit very much because they left Him without a throne.

Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Many blessings,
John