The Mormon god

[Krusader]

Joseph Smith taught that his god was a highly evolved human who had attained godhood over a long period of progression.

Of course, Chritians believe that God has no beginning and no end, that He was God eternally. He became man at the incarnation.

The Mormon god is not the Christian god. In fact, since the Mormon god had a father (who had become god before him), and a grandfather (who had become god eons before his father), why don't Mormons simply go to the oldest grandfather god and worship him? Isn't he more powerful than Elohim, who only became a god recently?

Shouldn't Mormons share their belief in an evolved god when they go door to door with their "restored" gospel, attempting to convert Christians to Mormonism?

Pray tell, if this is the "restored" gospel, when did Christians stop believing in this evolved god who had to ber restored by Smith?

[Leroy]

Joseph Smith taught that his god was a highly evolved human who had attained godhood over a long period of progression.

Of course, Chritians believe that God has no beginning and no end, that He was God eternally. He became man at the incarnation.

The Mormon god is not the Christian god. In fact, since the Mormon god had a father (who had become god before him), and a grandfather (who had become god eons before his father), why don't Mormons simply go to the oldest grandfather god and worship him? Isn't he more powerful than Elohim, who only became a god recently?

The God of this world is the only God they are told to have anything to do with.

Shouldn't Mormons share their belief in an evolved god when they go door to door with their "restored" gospel, attempting to convert Christians to Mormonism?

and how many converts do you think they would get? This is not a doctrine that LDS go around talking about.

Pray tell, if this is the "restored" gospel, when did Christians stop believing in this evolved god who had to ber restored by Smith?

according to LDS the keys to the ordinaces were lost, they were neglicted to be passed on. There is a bit of confusion there, but basically when Joseph Smith prayed in the forest, he was visited by 2 to 3 personages, there is a bit of confusion there as well, he was told after asking what church was true, that all were an abomination, at that point he was told to restore the gospel and given the keys at a later date. The reason they were an abomination was not spelled out in the "First Vision" I assume it was because of Joseph Smith's unwillingness to imbrace the harder to understand doctrines, one of them being the trinity. Some of the LDS scholars believe it was the Helenistic influences of the first century that obscured the truth of Jesus's teachings, and christians have always believed in many God's. There are plenty of bible scriptures LDS use in defense of there many Gods doctrine, but they also believe in the Bible (KJV only)as long as it's translated correctly, and the translations is left to the LDS higher ups. Many LDS folks mistakenly believe that King James English was the spoken language of Jesus.

[Krusader]

The God of this world is the only God they are told to have anything to do with.



and how many converts do you think they would get? This is not a doctrine that LDS go around talking about.



according to LDS the keys to the ordinaces were lost, they were neglicted to be passed on. There is a bit of confusion there, but basically when Joseph Smith prayed in the forest, he was visited by 2 to 3 personages, there is a bit of confusion there as well, he was told after asking what church was true, that all were an abomination, at that point he was told to restore the gospel and given the keys at a later date. The reason they were an abomination was not spelled out in the "First Vision" I assume it was because of Joseph Smith's unwillingness to imbrace the harder to understand doctrines, one of them being the trinity. Some of the LDS scholars believe it was the Helenistic influences of the first century that obscured the truth of Jesus's teachings, and christians have always believed in many God's. There are plenty of bible scriptures LDS use in defense of there many Gods doctrine, but they also believe in the Bible (KJV only)as long as it's translated correctly, and the translations is left to the LDS higher ups. Many LDS folks mistakenly believe that King James English was the spoken language of Jesus.
I'm aware of the verses used by Mormons to prove their men can become gods doctrine. They especially like to use Psalm 82, vs. 6. They faile to go on to verse 7 which stataes that those so-called gods will die like men and "fall like on of the princes."

The Mormons get their evolved god doctrine right out of the Book of Genesis. Satan promised Adam and Eve that they would be like gods - and sinful men have been striving for this godhood since that time.

Paul said the "god of this world" is Satan. If Mormons wish to follow this world's "god," they should remember the words of this Apostle.

The true God is not only the Creator of this world, but of all that exists. He is God over all creation, not just tiny planet earth.

The Mormon god, an evolved human, named "Elohim" (which means gods), was a figment of Smith's fertile imagination, and a projection of his own sinful desire to establish his own godhood in place of the Lord's.

[brahmabull]

I don't know much about Mormons, but have heard some things that seem strange to me.
For example; blood atonement that has been written out, the indian curse (that changed the color of their skin), Eden being a place in the states, and on and on...

I would like to find out more. Especially since I have a sister in law doing geneological research in order to "baptize" the entire family into the Mormon church.

[Krusader]

I don't know much about Mormons, but have heard some things that seem strange to me.
For example; blood atonement that has been written out, the indian curse (that changed the color of their skin), Eden being a place in the states, and on and on...

I would like to find out more. Especially since I have a sister in law doing geneological research in order to "baptize" the entire family into the Mormon church.
Go to the website of Utah Lighthouse Ministies - the ministry of the Tanners. They offer a lot of info on Mormonism. Their books, "The Changing World of Mormonism", or "Mormonism - Shadow or Reality" are the classic documents exposing Mormonism as a cultic aberration of Christianity.

Mormons have a different god, another "Jesus" and offer salvation based on "obedience" to their many laws. They believe they will evolve to gods if obedient, and have spirit babies which will people new earths over which they will reign as gods and godesses.

Young taught blood atonement - or the doctrine that there are some sins which the Blood of Jesus Christ cannot atone for - that the sinner's own blood must be shed. A vestige of this doctrine still remains in Utah, which allows the firing squad as a choice for the death penalty.

Joseph Smith taught that the Garden of Eden was located in the State of Missouri, and many other strange doctrines (the use of hold undergarments to protect Mormons - derived from Masonry).

Smith died in a shoot-out when his prison cell was stormed by angry Missourians. He never died as a "martyr," regardless of what Mormons attempt to portray. He and his brother killed at least two men who stormed the jail with pistols smuggled into their cells.

Mormonism is a dangerous cult since they use Christian terms and mention Jesus Christ as the head of their church. In reality, they have changed the definition of Christian words to such an extent that they are meaningless.

I'll pray for your sister.

[just Johnna]

Oh you guys, I should really ignore you and get on with making the turkey stuffing.

Joseph Smith taught that his god was a highly evolved human who had attained godhood over a long period of progression.

Of course, Chritians believe that God has no beginning and no end, that He was God eternally. He became man at the incarnation.

The Mormon god is not the Christian god. In fact, since the Mormon god had a father (who had become god before him), and a grandfather (who had become god eons before his father), why don't Mormons simply go to the oldest grandfather god and worship him? Isn't he more powerful than Elohim, who only became a god recently?

The Mormons who hold with the interpretation of generations of Gods like you describe, believe the generations go back eternally to the past. Doctrine is there can be no time before God/s.

We believe that God is our Eternal Father, and his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. And that we, angels and humans, are his children, and are in some sense co-eternal with him, and we lived in the spirit as his children before we were born here human. We do believe God has no beginning or end, being eternal, any mormon interpretation has to harmonize to scripture on that. Evolve is the wrong word--evolution is a science word for change over successive generations, but people use it anyway. A more standard description is to say Eternal Progression.

Yes, there are mormons who believe that God the Father was once a human like we now, who prayed to a Father God like we pray to our Heavenly Father. But others find this interdoctrinal interpretation to be misleading. You might consider Jeff Lindsay's site. Jeff's site (http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/). The primary doctrine is we are children of God, and that through Christ we may be like him, even exhalted like him as joint-heirs.

http://www.mormon.org/ is an official site if you are interested in the church's self description, though I understand you are not.

Many LDS folks mistakenly believe that King James English was the spoken language of Jesus.I heard that joke, but it was about people in Texas.

I'm aware of the verses used by Mormons to prove their men can become gods doctrine. They especially like to use Psalm 82, vs. 6. They faile to go on to verse 7 which stataes that those so-called gods will die like men and "fall like on of the princes."Hmm, but that Psalm is about wicked judges, who although they are gods-in-embryo, intended to inherit the kingdom, and were entrusted with a small measure of responsibility, they are behaving wickedly and will reap the reward of the wicked.

I don't know much about Mormons, but have heard some things that seem strange to me.
For example; blood atonement that has been written out, the indian curse (that changed the color of their skin), Eden being a place in the states, and on and on...There are plenty of mormons who don't believe in an "indian curse," who interpret the Book of Mormon to describe a perception of "otherness" and a naturalistic method of intermarriage with locals.

Typical on the location of Eden, is a belief that the land masses were all one (until divided in the days of Peleg), so Eden in Missouri literally isn't so farfetched. I understand some Christians don't believe there was a literal Eden on the earth anywhere or a literal Adam.

I think blood atonement had a lot to do with justifying capital punishment when the saints were attempting to govern themselves politically, and I class it with thoughts about the body needing to be buried not cremated as a sign of respect for the resurrection (because the political right to exact punishment for murder should include shedding blood to reflect the crime.)

That's all for now--When you describe what Mormons believe in a way that Mormons react to as "that's not what I believe!" there's a disconnect somewhere. I know typically you guys say we don't understand what we believe ourselves, but I find this unconvincing. People know what they believe, even if they don't understand their own beliefs or if they are not internally consistent.

Typical evangelical missionary work to mormons looks like: convert the saint to a cartoon version of his beliefs, then convert him from cartoon mormonism to mainstream christianity.

I'm finding the analogy to OT prophets and confrontational evangelism to fall short on this ground: The confrontational OT prophets and John the Baptist were clearly identified as in-group House of Israel with the fallen they preach to. The CE model severs the connection of identifying.

We are Christian-->You are not.
We are regenerate in Christ, transubstantiated in body-->You are another species.

Ah, but we LDS believe ourselves to be the body of Christ, along with anyone to the extent they worship Christ truly. So when you declare yourselves to be Other, you declare yourselves to be irrelevant.


fwiw,
Johna

[Krusader]

Justjohnna: of course, you are quite free to disagree with your first prophet, Joseph Smith, who taught that the Mormon god had once been a man, and that through obedience to the gospel, and progression, he attained to godhood. He clearly, clearly taught this in the "King Follett Discourse," which you can read for yourself by a simple internet search. He's your prophet, and if you're a Mormon, I'd think you'd have to agree with him, right?

You only believe that your god was eternal because Mormons consider intelligence or matter to be eternal. There was a time when Elohim, your god, was not god. Christians see this as quite heretical and unbiblical. The Bible clearly teaches that God was always God, without beginning or end. He wasn't just some type of eternal matter or "intelligence" who became man and then became God.

The teachings of Smith on the Godhead resulted in Brigham's "Adam god" doctrine. Other groups that follow the BOM (the Josephites, Church of Christ - Temple Lot, etc.) have never adhered to the Smith doctrine, but they also have confusing ideas about the Godhead (i.e., that the Holy Ghost is the love between the Father and Son, not a person).

If you really look at the BOM, you will see that as Joseph began writing it he was modalistic in his views (believing the Father became the Son), ie., he has Jesus saying, "I am the Father and the Son." He obviously was never able to grasp the Christian concept of one God in Three Persons, of one substance, power and glory. Later Smith went into tri-theism, eventually ending with polytheism and the belief that Elohim was some type of "evolved" humanoid. Young, of course, went a step further, teaching that Adam was actually god, which was later repudiated by Mormon leaders.

Most Mormons, I'll grant you, don't really think things through when it comes to the historical positions Mormonism has held pertaining to the godhead - blissfully ignorant, they are rather shocked when Christians bring up Smith's and Young's teachings. One of my best friends is a "home teacher" for the LDS and totally denies any belief that God was once a man or that there is more than one god.......she's read the old Mormon documents, but still won't believe it. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

[Leroy]

Oh you guys, I should really ignore you and get on with making the turkey stuffing.

You sound like your more then qualified to do both, thanks!





I heard that joke, but it was about people in Texas.

My sister believed that and she's in California.



There are plenty of mormons who don't believe in an "indian curse,"...

I wonder if that has came about because of racism issues that came into focus in the 60s, the way I understood it, all LDS believed it to be pretty much a curse of the marked skin until then.



I think blood atonement had a lot to do with justifying capital punishment when the saints were attempting to govern themselves politically, and I class it with thoughts about the body needing to be buried not cremated as a sign of respect for the resurrection (because the political right to exact punishment for murder should include shedding blood to reflect the crime.)

That's a way to look at it but the LDS prophet did say that Christ's blood was not sufficient for some sins



That's all for now--When you describe what Mormons believe in a way that Mormons react to as "that's not what I believe!" there's a disconnect somewhere. I know typically you guys say we don't understand what we believe ourselves, but I find this unconvincing. People know what they believe, even if they don't understand their own beliefs or if they are not internally consistent.

I agree, that would cause a disconnection of sorts, but LDS doctrine is very pliable, and it seems as though LDS can cherry pick now days, what they want to believe and what they don't want to believe, even Prophet Hinckley when confronted with some of the controversial beliefs from the old LDS prophets said "that was then, this is now" it seems that LDS can throw out problematic doctrines when they come up and shift the discussion topic from a critical explanation of LDS beliefs to a adversarial discussion making the statement "why are you trying to tell me what a Mormon is, only I now that". It just seems like a convenient dodge to me.



Typical evangelical missionary work to mormons looks like: convert the saint to a cartoon version of his beliefs, then convert him from cartoon mormonism to mainstream christianity.

More dodging justjohnna, the doctrines expressed by past LDS prophets are the foundations on which Mormonism was built.

[Trout]

Oh you guys, I should really ignore you and get on with making the turkey stuffing.

Mmmmmm. . .Turkey stuffing. . .

Hey wait. . .isn't talking to Leroy kind of like "Stuffing the turkey" :wink:

Happy Thanksgiving justjohnna. and Leroy

[Krusader]

Justjohnna, you shouldn't be stuffing the turkey and then putting it back in the refrigerator.

I'm not really interested in "converting" Mormons, my friend. I'm one of those mean old Calvinists - I leave that up to God's Sovereign grace.

Well, at least there's one thing Mormons and Christians can agree on - we have a lot to be thankful for in America, especially our freedom to worship where and who we please!

[Leroy]

Mmmmmm. . .Turkey stuffing. . .

Hey wait. . .isn't talking to Leroy kind of like "Stuffing the turkey" :wink:

Happy Thanksgiving justjohnna. and Leroy

Trout, your post is sprinkled with salmonella, I hope your bird is not.

Happy thanksgiving to you both.

[just Johnna]

Justjohnna: of course, you are quite free to disagree with your first prophet, Joseph Smith, who taught that the Mormon god had once been a man, and that through obedience to the gospel, and progression, he attained to godhood. He clearly, clearly taught this in the "King Follett Discourse," which you can read for yourself by a simple internet search. He's your prophet, and if you're a Mormon, I'd think you'd have to agree with him, right?
I'm familiar with the King Follett Discourse. Unlike you I have good personal reason to be familiar with it, a funeral oratory, which exists in four note-taker versions, and was editorialized together and printed in a newspaper after Joseph Smith's death. It's not scripture and not even well-stated doctrine. But it certainly has interesting ideas.

Perhaps you don't understand the role of the prophet. He is not venerated as a Muslim would hold to every comment and detail of Mohammed's life. Only Jesus has our devotion, and his human life is exceptional due to his divinity.

You only believe that your god was eternal because Mormons consider intelligence or matter to be eternal. There was a time when Elohim, your god, was not god. Christians see this as quite heretical and unbiblical. The Bible clearly teaches that God was always God, without beginning or end. He wasn't just some type of eternal matter or "intelligence" who became man and then became God.
Actually, there is no official backstory on God, other than he is eternal. So my belief that God is always God is within the mormon fold.
The teachings of Smith on the Godhead resulted in Brigham's "Adam god" doctrine. I see that rather an an interpretation attempt, which placed Elohim as the Most High God, and made Adam the exalted man generations down. Worship still directed to the Father. Adam-god is not doctrine however, and no form of it is taught today.

If you really look at the BOM, you will see that as Joseph began writing it he was modalistic in his views (believing the Father became the Son), ie., he has Jesus saying, "I am the Father and the Son." [quote]
The Book of Mormon has both separateness verses and unity verses describing God. How does the Bible do it?

I can think of two instances where Jesus is described as "Father and Son" in the Book of Mormon.

[quote]He obviously was never able to grasp the Christian concept of one God in Three Persons, of one substance, power and glory.
Later Smith went into tri-theism, eventually ending with polytheism and the belief that Elohim was some type of "evolved" humanoid.
Gee, good thing you killed him. Wonder what he would have said next?

I think you don't get our divine community of God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Since we really do believe they are three persons, and not three chemical states in a test tube, God is a model for relationships of perfect accord.

Most Mormons, I'll grant you, don't really think things through when it comes to the historical positions Mormonism has held pertaining to the godhead - blissfully ignorant, they are rather shocked when Christians bring up Smith's and Young's teachings. One of my best friends is a "home teacher" for the LDS and totally denies any belief that God was once a man or that there is more than one god.......she's read the old Mormon documents, but still won't believe it. Talk about cognitive dissonance!Hmm, your LDS friend doesn't believe Heavenly Father was once a man the way you are right now, and neither do I. Your LDS friend believes in one God and so do I. Perhaps I should wish you well converting all the mormons as you define them, since neither of us know any.

I believe Jesus participated in our mortality, and would make us joint-heirs in his kingdom. But you've already heard that old mormon saying (As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become.)

just Johnna

[just Johnna]

Justjohnna, you shouldn't be stuffing the turkey and then putting it back in the refrigerator.

Good advice. I roast my turkey empty and warm the stuffing in a casserole dish.
I'm not really interested in "converting" Mormons, my friend. I'm one of those mean old Calvinists - I leave that up to God's Sovereign grace.

Well, at least there's one thing Mormons and Christians can agree on - we have a lot to be thankful for in America, especially our freedom to worship where and who we please!
Amen!
Ah, my favorite college prof was a mean ole Calvinist. God bless you.


Happy Thanksgiving you too, Leroy the King, hang in there. I just had a whim to put my dodging on the record, which only facilitates you getting to say your piece.

Isn't there doctrinal development in the body of Christ? It seems there was a long time before Martin Luther, and a long time after that before baptism became an offense of prideful work, indistinguishable from circumcision.

And Leroy, if your sister thinks Jesus spoke KJV English during his mortal ministry, shouldn't you blame your parents or a California education rather than the mormon church? What could she think "as far as it was translated correctly" means? It's easier for me to believe you have misunderstood her.


Happy Thanksgiving Trout. Thanks for you.

Johnna

[Krusader]

Gee, Johnna, getting a little ticked off, aren't you. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving, and I'm tired of heresies right now.

By the way, "I" didn't kill Joseph Smith, and resent the fact you stated that. As a Christian, I don't believe in murder, and don't agree that Smith should have been killed. It simply made him a martyr. Had he lived, he woud have been fully exposed for the fraud he was - he was becoming so full of himself that he compared himself with Jesus, saying that he had done a greater work than any man had ever done. As he became more and more deluded, Smith would have been regarded as a fanatical, power hungry, egomaniac, and hardly a prophet.

By the way, Christians believe that the prophets of Scripture were inspired by God, and that their prophecies were without error - unlike the low view of "prophets" you seem to have.

It's one thing to call yourself a prophet, another to prove it. Smith fails the test, as does Young.

This Thanksgiving why not spend some time with your Bible. The Book of Ephesians might be a good book to read over.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.